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The AIH transcript for June 20, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Neither home nor home-free. A resident of Churchill Falls describes the quick escape, on the single road out of town, as firefighters try to knock back a wildfire threatening their community.

CH: He could do everything -- and he did. From M*A*S*H* to The Hunger Games over 50-plus years, the late Donald Sutherland brought gravitas and intelligence to even the least promising project.

NK: A fine kennel of fish. Ottawa pushes its deadline to end open net salmon farming to 2029. But Natural Resources Minister Jonathan Wilkinson insists this time -- they mean business.

CH: A hard time facing hard time. First he was arrested in Serbia. Now an activist from Belarus is living under house arrest in Belgrade and fighting extradition to his home country -- where he's afraid he would die behind bars.

NK: What's Mayan was hers, and what was hers was Mayan. After a $3.99 thrift-store find turns out to be a priceless Mayan artifact, the shocked bargain hunter returns it -- just not to the store.

CH: And...pitch perfect. An opera director in Hamburg capitalizes on an influx of tourists for the Euro 2024 soccer tournament by staging an opera about an actual soccer game.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that frankly believes that's a little opera-tunistic.

[theme]

Part 1: Churchill Falls Evac, Donald Sutherland Obit, Thrift Store Vase

Churchill Falls Evac

Guest: Susan Chislett

CH: They had no time to let the news sink in. When residents of Churchill Falls, Labrador were told a wildfire was on their doorstep, they were also told had to leave -- fast. The town is built around a massive hydroelectric plant which provides power to Newfoundland and Labrador -- not to mention a full fifteen per cent of Quebec's entire electricity consumption. Right now, that plant is being staffed by a skeleton crew. And meanwhile, hundreds of people have taken the only road out of town, and are anxiously waiting for news about their homes. Susan Chislett is one of the evacuees. We reached her in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Labrador.

NK: Susan, you only had a few minutes to get out. That's what they told you. So how do you stay calm in that moment and how do you decide what to take?

SUSAN CHISLETT: Inside, I was a little bit stressed or it was really surreal to me because I was born and bred, bred in and raised in Churchill Falls. Forty-odd years being, living there and possibly being told that you have to leave, leave everything that you've ever worked for, your, your family's, personal items and just take what was essential. You know, that was really hard to swallow and to accept. But -- at the end of the day -- you know, I looked at my husband and my daughter and my brother-in-law and said -- listen -- those things can be replaced, we'll always have the memories, and we have each other. So -- at the end of the day -- we hope that we're going to be able to go back to our little community and continue on. You know, we had to look at the big picture and get it and situated for everybody involved. Let's just take a breath, take a step back, get suitcases out, put whatever we need in them, get the pups and our family pets situated, put it on the truck, and we'll worry about it when we get to Goose Bay.

NK: How long did that all take?

SC: It -- well -- we had about 45 minutes to do all this. So we got our text message roughly between 7:15 and 7:30, and we had to be out on the road to go either to Goose Bay or to Labrador City by 8:15.

NK: Yeah. And then there is only one road out of town. What did you see as you were driving out?

SC: We're driving, and we know we're going to our destination of our family friends' for, for safety and making sure everybody's okay. But when we got to a certain point and looked ahead of us, it was our Trans-Labrador Highway -- which is usually pretty quiet, not much traffic -- was actually looking like the Trans-Canada Highway. It was bumper-to-bumper. All you could see was lights. When we looked behind us, it was the same. But behind us was a trail of people following us and just a black, cold, scary sky. We -- you know -- my husband kept saying, it's really black. Like, this is, this is unreal. I don't know how to feel about this. As we got closer to Goose Bay, we went from feeling like we were -- you know -- leaving everything behind and coming into Goose Bay. We ran into a, a torrential thunder and lightning rainstorm. We had people in front of us that their tonneau cover blew and actually broke out windows. The whole night was, was pretty chaotic and pretty stressful for a lot of people. But the stress and the fear of not knowing was almost obsolete for our family because we knew these people had, had us in the palm of their hand, and they were going to treat us with the utmost respect and care that was possible.

NK: I know you're also getting briefed on the fire situation. What's the latest you've been told about where it is in proximity to your community?

SC: The latest that we've heard is it's, it's approximately between three to four kilometres away from the community. You know, it's not as angry as it was yesterday. The ground teams are doing what they can. The, the people up in the air and the water bombers and helicopters are doing everything that's possible at the moment. And Premier Furey has made sure that -- you know -- we will be notified ASAP when we can return if that's going to be an option. And -- hopefully -- that will be. But right now, the main thing is that there's a skeleton crew maintaining the power for everybody --

NK: At the generating station.

SC: Yeah, at the generating station. So there is a team of members of the community -- our friends -- that had to stay back -- were requested to stay back to maintain the power plant, to maintain our fire and security department, and to be there for support of the firefighting teams that have been brought in from outside. There are essential workers that stepped up to the plate to help protect our little community. And -- hopefully -- allow us to return home safely and -- you know -- continue on with our lives and do what we've done previously.

NK: The hope -- of course -- is that you and the others -- your families -- will be able to go back home. And if that happens, what's the first thing you'll do?

SC: Well, I think my first option would be basically go home, get all our personal belongings, things that we would want to take in, in the event of something like this happening again and allow us to be a little bit more prepared. We have -- you know -- everything we need right now as such. But those things that -- you know -- may not be replaceable when, if we, if we did indeed need to replace, you know? But Mother Nature can be kind sometimes and very unkind and unforgiving other times. So, you can only hope for the best.

NK: Yeah. You've certainly seen other communities -- you know -- in previous summers dealing with similar catastrophes, people having to, to flee their communities. I know you said growing up where you grew up, you sort of always have this sense of needing to be prepared, but to now be in that reality yourself, with your family. How is that sitting with you?

SC: It's hard to -- you know -- kind of look at the big picture because I've always been one that -- you know -- was raised in a, in a home that whatever you can do for somebody who was in need in any which way, if it was fire, if it was financially, if it was a home they needed or something, whatever it was -- you know -- you always open your doors and whatever you had. And we've always done this. And it's -- to me, right now -- it's kind of surreal. It's -- you know -- I've never really thought that I would be in those people's shoes. That -- you know -- the people -- the very people that I helped -- would be offering me the same in return. What I've always told my daughter is -- you know -- anything could happen at any moment. So tomorrow -- you know -- be grateful for what we got today because tomorrow is an unknown. And I think that's really hitting home for myself and for my family.

NK: Well -- Susan -- I hope you all get good news soon. I really do appreciate your time. Thank you.

SC: You're very welcome.

CH: We reached Susan Chislett in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Labrador.

[ambient]

Donald Sutherland Obit

Guest: Terry Haig

CH: This afternoon, Kiefer Sutherland posted that "one of the most important actors in the history of film" had died: his father, Donald Sutherland. He wrote that his dad was -- quote -- "never daunted by a role -- good, bad, or ugly. He loved what he did and did what he loved, and one can never ask for more than that." Unquote. Donald Sutherland died in Miami after a long illness. He was 88 years old. He was born in New Brunswick, but his career took him around the world and spanned more than half a century -- from M*A*S*H and Klute in the '70s, to more recent roles in Pride & Prejudice and the Hunger Games series. And it wasn't always easy. In a 1991 interview he recalled the time actor Christopher Plummer helped him out.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD SUTHERLAND: I phoned him -- Christopher -- and said, I'm sorry to disturb you, but they tell me that I have a chance to get some work in California if I can get there. And I don't have any money. And I wondered if you could lend me $1,500. This was in 1967; $1,500 was as much money as I'd earned in the year three years before. And without, maybe he blinked an eyelid because I wasn't there because it was telephone. But, but without gasping or gulping, he said, my lawyer is so-and-so in England. Call him in the morning and off you go. And he loaned me the $1,500 -- which made my life.

PETER GZOWSKI: You have paid him back.

DS: No, no! But I'm going to. [PETER GZOWSKI laughs] I'm not sure I've paid it back.

CH: The late Donald Sutherland speaking to Peter Gzowski in 1991. Terry Haig is a Canadian broadcast journalist and actor -- and a longtime friend -- and neighbour -- of Donald Sutherland. We reached him in Georgeville, Quebec.

NK: Terry, that voice so, so distinctive, instantly recognizable. The humour as well. When you hear that -- given the news today -- how does that hit you?

TERRY HAIG: Oh -- this very second -- I was grinning.

NK: Yeah.

TH: I must say, Donald made me laugh a lot. He had a great sense of humour. And he -- I mean -- he had the ability. I mean, he was a brilliant man. I mean, he had a way with words, and you just, you just saw the humour there, the self-deprecation, and that was a pretty good break he got being friends with --

NK: Well, yeah.

TH: With Chris Plummer [NK chuckles] because from there, it was all -- I mean -- think of the start he had. It was a phenomenal start in Hollywood -- Donald.

NK: Yeah.

TH: It was amazing. Yeah.

NK: Yeah.

TH: It was amazing.

NK: And thank goodness that he got that start and the hundreds of films and TV projects that would follow. When did you last speak?

TH: Well, I think we spoke over the winter. I was there when they honoured him with the stamp, when they gave him a stamp or put, put, put his kisser on a stamp -- [NK chuckles] on the Canadian stamp last October out here in Georgeville and in the Eastern Townships -- which was his emotional home, his psychological home. And I believe I'm not, I don't think I'm making this, I think he said it was the biggest thrill he ever had. Now, he was honoured by the French Academy. He got an honorary Oscar several years ago. But he said the stamp was the biggest honour he'd ever received.

NK: Why did he feel that way -- you think?

TH: Why did he feel? He was a proud Canadian. It had to do with his mom because mom also, his mom was mentioned as he was accepting the stamp. And how they used to wait for letters, and how they used to look at stamps and stuff when they were growing up down in the, down, down east. But -- yeah -- he, he was Canadian to the core. I mean, he didn't take, he didn't take out American citizenship. If he had, I'm pretty sure he would have been nominated for a lot more Oscars if he'd settled in Hollywood and played the game. He didn't. But he, he, he's just proud. He was proud of everything Canadian. He was proud of being Canadian.

NK: There's a, there's a beautiful interview from, from 1970, on, on the CBC News website where he's talking about feeling like this umbilical tie to Canada.

TH: Well, it certainly went to his core. You know -- I mean -- Donald didn't waste time fibbing. Donald went right to the truth of any situation. Didn't make small talk, necessarily. You know, the thing about him was, if you think about, think about that start that he had. All of those different characters, but what did they have in common? He stripped everything away. You got to the truth of that. No matter what the character was, you got to the truth of that character's soul. And that's what moved us. That's, that's the brilliance that he displayed, the eloquence that he displayed throughout his whole career.

NK: Your mother -- if I'm not mistaken -- first introduced you to Donald Sutherland.

TH: That's right. [chuckling] Well, Donald -- yeah -- my mom was, my mom was a longtime resident up here in Georgeville, out in the townships. And Donald moved. And Donald -- knowing where the power of the village laid -- made friends with my mom. [NK chuckles] So, so -- at one point -- we were over, I don't know, for something or other at the local community hall. My mother said, Donald! Donald! Come here! I want you to meet my son. And I was mortified. Of course, I was living in New York at that point, trying to be an actor. And Donald was like a superstar, but he was -- like -- he was totally generous. And then, then we started talking baseball. And then it turns out we both adored the game of baseball. We both adored the Expos, and that's how we became friends. And he started, we started driving into the city from the townships -- which is about 80 miles, 130 kilometres. My mother wouldn't go because Donald drove way too fast for her. [NK chuckles] But -- and so -- that's how we became friends, and that's how I got to, to, to know him. And, and just, I worship him, actually. He was, he was the most brilliant man I've ever met. And so, he was like this zen guy. Who was -- like -- really alive. Man, he was alive 24/7. And deep and profound, and all he was interested in is the truth of any situation -- I think.

NK: And when you did -- yeah -- when you did get the chance to act together, you had a few opportunities. [TH laughs] What was it like to be with him on set?

TH: Well, his career had come to this. No, he just said I got a, I got a couple of small parts in movies that he had leads in, right? And then I was out -- you know -- horsing around with the crew in this and that. And he came out one day, and he said, come here. And he just said, shut up. Just keep quiet and prepare your role, okay? [NK chuckles] This is not a social occasion, okay? We're making a film here. So yeah -- I mean -- I wouldn't say we were acting together. [laughing]

NK: But to watch him do his thing on set, what was that like for you?

TH: You know, just on the set. But -- I mean -- I did, I did get to share -- at one point -- he was -- like -- the lead in a film, and he was staying at the Ritz in Montreal. And I, and so, he would invite me over, and we would watch baseball games and football games at the Ritz and have lobster sandwiches. It was my, it was my, my brush with greatness.

NK: Love it!

TH: But he was very -- I mean -- I would say, Donald -- you know -- I just don't get this acting thing. And poor Donald, Donald was like a pro. I mean, he knew it inside out. Don't forget, he spent 10 years in Britain doing repertory theatre. You know, with that -- I mean -- it's an unfair advantage that all those British actors have because they go to, they go to Scotland and work for £8 a week or whatever, and they're working in the play at night, and they're rehearsing another play in the day. And that's Donald. He knew acting inside out, he really knew how to do it.

NK: He, he would have celebrated his 89th birthday next month -- as I understand it -- and had an autobiography coming out this year. He was, he was living life -- really -- to the fullest, it seems like.

TH: Totally to the fullest. And when you better, when you're talking to him, you better be on your game, you know? Don't say anything stupid. [both chuckle] I can speak from experience on that. He could just give me a look to say, smarten up -- kid -- you know?

NK: I can imagine that look just from his roles.

TH: Oh my gosh!

NK: I can see it in my mind's eye.

TH: Well, we're just lucky to have him. The whole country, it's a big loss, boy. It's -- I mean -- there's him and Chris, and Ryan Gosling seems to be a contender to someday move up into their league. They're brilliant actors. We've lost a lot today, boy. We lost Donald Sutherland. That's a big, big, big loss.

NK: Well, we've certainly gained -- I've certainly gained -- something speaking with you, Terry. So I appreciate it. Thank you. And I'm sorry for your loss.

TH: Thank you, my dear.

CH: That was Terry Haig, talking about his friend -- the late Donald Sutherland -- from Georgeville, Quebec.

[classic rock]

Thrift Store Vase

Guest: Anna Lee Dozier

CH: It's nice to pick up something cheap you know will dress your place up a little. For some of us, it's yet another "Number One Dad" mug to take to work -- you know -- to impress our colleagues. For Anna Lee Dozier, it was a terracotta vau-ze -- or vay-se, if you prefer -- which she found at her local thrift store. It was just $3.99. It had a seemingly Mayan aesthetic, and she figured it would look great in her home. Little did she know, she had bought a lot more than just a knick-knack. We reached Anna Lee Dozier in Washington.

NK: Anna Lee -- when you're standing in the thrift shop -- I'm wondering what was it about this this vase that first caught your eye?

ANNA LEE DOZIER: Well, when I go thrifting, I'm always looking for something that is interesting or meaningful to me in some way. And I -- in my work -- I travel a lot to Mexico, and the item caught my eye because it looked different than the things on the shelf, but it also was recognizably from Mexico. Although I didn't have any idea of what it actually was. It looked old -- like in parentheses -- but -- like -- I was thinking 20-30-year-old tourist thing -- something one brought home -- you know -- on a trip somewhere.

NK: Yeah. Can you describe it for our listeners who haven't seen the photographs?

ALD: It's probably about five inches tall, heavy clay, but it's painted with white and black, and it has a couple of figures that you can see are people, kind of sitting in the reclining position with their arms out, and there's one figure who's in a narrow space with, it looks like their face is painted white. And then there's some symbols around the top.

NK: And when you, when you saw it and -- you know -- it reminded you of Mexico, did you have a place in mind in your house that you were going to put it?

ALD: At the time, I only had one child, and he was still a baby, so I wasn't really, I hadn't become aware yet of how, how dangerous children can be. [NK laughs] And so, I had, I didn't have a specific spot. But I subsequently -- over those five, six years -- I now have three little boys and have learned very quickly that putting things within their reach is likely to get them broken. [NK chuckles] So I had it in, it's a, it's a small room, but I call it my library. And the one room where they, they're not really, they know they're not supposed to play in there. So that was a relatively safe place.

NK: So, it was special to you. But then you found out it was, it was special in a much broader sense. When did you realize this was, this was not a replica at all?

ALD: Yes. So I travelled to Mexico for work, and I was, I happened to be there in January on a work trip. And we went to the Museum of Anthropology -- which is Mexico City. And it's -- like -- they're, basically their historical museum. And it's, it's one of the most beautiful museums in the world. But as I was walking through, I was noticing, it goes through the history of Mexico going back to prehistoric times all the way to the present. And as I was walking through, I was, I just, it occurred to me that some of the things that I was looking at looked very similar to what I had at home. Enough so that by the time we got to the museum, I decided to go back to the offices and ask to see someone, and I just inquired as to if I had something, how would I authenticate what I had with the intent of repatriating it if it was something special? And the woman who was speaking to me was very polite. I think they hear that from people a lot. [NK chuckles] But she said you would go back to your country and contact the embassy, and they would take charge of that process. So I came back to the U.S. -- to Washington, DC, where I live, which happens to be the embassy as well. I still was not convinced it could be something real. So I tried to reach out to a few professors that I found online. But no one responded to me, so I ended up contacting thje embassy. They came back to me and explained what the process would be. I basically sent in a whole bunch of pictures and dimensions and weight, and then that went off to the Institue of Anthropology back in Mexico for a few months. And in April, they contacted me to say that -- yes -- it was -- in fact -- something real and very, very old.

NK: Oh? How old?

ALD: They dated it to the Mayan classical period -- which goes from 280 AD to 880 AD. So, almost 2,000 years old -- which is unbelievable.

NK: [chuckling] And when you get that email or that call, what's your reaction in that moment?

ALD: Well, the first email didn't say that. It just said, congratulations. It is real. And we would like it back in a very nice way. [NK chuckles] Which is what I had intended. So, that was fine. And so, I said I was travelling again that week, and I said I'll be back at the end of the week. I can come by and drop it off. And they said, oh, that's, that's great. And then about 30 minutes later, I got another email saying -- actually -- we're really sorry. We didn't realize, but the ambassador would like to come and they'd like to do a ceremony around this. And so then I realized, okay, this is not just something kind of special. It's something really special. So that's when I, it hit me. I didn't actually ask what it was until a bit later. But, but when I realized they wanted to do the ceremony with the ambassador there, then I realized it had to be something important.

NK: So then -- I mean -- it's in your library, where it's safe from your children you're thinking. But does panic set in at that point?

ALD: Yeah. Not panic, but definitely -- yeah -- became very, very careful. I was, I was actually most nervous taking it from my home -- which is on one end of D.C., to the Cultural Institute, which is on the other end of D.C. And just that little 30-minute drive -- the whole way -- I was just praying that nobody would, no fender-benders, no, no, accidents. I could get it there in one piece.

NK: You clearly care about culture -- Mexican culture in particular. You did not profit from this in any way. And you were happy to, to return it. Why was that important to you?

ALD: A few reasons. I, I'm originally from California, and I'm from an area that's very agricultural -- which had a very strong presence of, of Mexican culture. And so, that, I had friends growing up from states like Jalisco, and Guerrero, and Michoacan, Oaxaca. So that definitely informed me. And then -- later in life -- I became an adult. I went into the field of human rights, and I've worked on human rights in Latin America for about 25 years. And Mexico is one of our countries of focus. And in that specific line, we focus on freedom of religion or belief for all -- those of all faiths. And then I could see that this was something that was of importance. I don't know about a religious way, but it, it had cultural, and it had value beyond what you could put money on. And so -- for me -- it just was never a question of if it was something special, it should go back to where it belongs. And -- honestly -- I spent -- like, as you mentioned -- $2 or $3 on it.

NK: Yeah.

ALD: I didn't lose anything. I feel very lucky that I got to find it and have it in my house for a few years. But now, it's going back where it should be.

NK: Anna Lee, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

ALD: Thank you, I appreciate being able to talk about it.

CH: Anna Lee Dozier donated the Mayan vase that she bought at a thrift store to the Mexican Cultural Institute. We reached her in Washington.

[bluegrass?]

Soccer Opera

[opera song]

CH: "The Magic Flute" continues, and the Queen of the Night is angry. She's given her daughter Pamina a dagger and threatened to disown her if she doesn't kill Sarastro with it. She's tormenting Pamina -- oh, and now she's going around her entirely. Can she address the gods of revenge...She can! She does! The Queen of the Night has done it! She has demanded the gods of revenge hear a mother's oath! The crowd is going wild!

[music swells then fades]

CH: Opera: it's just like soccer. We cheer for the heroes, we boo at the villains, and honk vuvuzelas in grief when the lead character dies. And in opera -- as in soccer -- people are always falling down and pretending to be hurt. But rarely have the two been brought together until the football opera known as Football Opera. Well, in German, it's called Fussballoper -- which sounds more sophisticated. It's playing in Hamburg right now to coincide with the Euro 2024 tournament. And it is an opera about a soccer game, featuring players and a referee, performed on a soccer-field set in the local opera house, and lasting exactly 90 minutes. The music -- apparently -- ranges from opera to rock to German-style pop to soccer chants. And it's clearly designed to appeal to football fans who might find regular opera too stuffy. Because unlike Fussballoper, La Traviata doesn't usually include the audience in a conga line. Finally, these two popular, very similar pastimes have been combined. And even if soccer fans don't enjoy it, they'll at least literally get a kick out of it.

[noir movie soundtrack?]

Part 2: Open Pen Salmon Farming, Belarus Activist Extradition

Open Pen Salmon Farming

Guest: Jonathan Wilkinson

CH: In Ottawa yesterday, the Trudeau government announced that it was pushing back its deadline on ending open-net pen salmon farming in ocean water off the coast of British Columbia. That deadline had been set for next year. The aim was -- to quote a ministry press release --"to protect and support our crucially important wild Pacific salmon, and create a vibrant marine ecosystem and sustainable industries for generations to come." But now, the salmon farming industry will have until 2029 to move to closed containment farms. And that decision has fish farm operators and the people who rely on wild salmon stocks concerned. Jonathan Wilkinson is the federal minister of natural resources. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Minister Wilkinson, why the delay?

JONATHAN WILKINSON: Why the delay in?

NK: Why push this down the line?

JW: I don't think it's a delay. I mean -- look -- we made a commitment in 2019 that we would transition away from open-net pens.

NK: And that deadline was set for next year if I'm not mistaken. So, that's where, that's why we use the word delay.

JW: Okay. All right. So, there's a lot of work that's been done. You would be aware of the broken process in the Discovery Islands. And about 40-some-odd per cent of the farms are gone now. And, and there is ongoing work with respect to the transition to close containment and to work with communities. But -- you know -- I think one thing that folks have to remember is for about two years or so, we were in the middle of a pandemic. So there was not a lot of time or ability to actually do the appropriate consultation. So, we want to make sure that this is done right, that we hear and work with the concerns that have been expressed by the farmers and by some of the Indigenous communities that have these these open-net pens. But -- at the end of the day -- we need to move forward with this. It's an important environmental protection issue.

NK: Yeah. We've certainly had many conversations on this program with people on both sides of this, this debate -- contentious, as, you know -- who, who were all frustrated by the years of uncertainty. You yourself have said that wild salmon stocks are facing a -- quote -- existential threat. Can those salmon and the people who rely on those stocks afford to wait any longer?

JW: Well -- look -- there are a number of issues that are affecting the, the status of wild Pacific salmon. And -- yes -- we have seen a significant decline for the last few years. Some of that relates to climate change. Obviously, we need to fight climate change. We can't see warming waters in the same way that we have been seeing them in the last little while. Some of it relates to habitat destruction. But -- but obviously -- some of the concern relates to the potential impact of these on wild salmon from these farms. Big steps have been taken in the last couple of years. As I say, about 40 per cent of the farms are now gone. But, but -- you know -- and we need to move expeditiously. There's no question about that. But we also need to be thoughtful and sensitive to the communities for whom -- you know -- these farms provide jobs and economic prospects. Many of which are remote Indigenous communities. And so, it's important for us to work through this as a transition. I would expect that we are going to see progress between now and the five years, but -- but certainly, at the end of five years -- we will be fully done with open-net pens.

NK: Can you imagine the timeline shifting again then?

JW: No, I cannot imagine the timeline shifting. This, these are, are regulatory licences that, that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans will put out there. And they are for five years, so.

NK: Okay, so won't move up or beyond.

JW: No, it will not go beyond. As I've said -- I mean -- I'm very interested in the conversation around the move towards closed containment. I mean, we do need aquaculture in the context of, of producing food. But we need to do it in a way that isolates the internal environment of, of the, the growing of the farmed fish from the external environment. And I think there's lots to be done with respect to close containment. As somebody, I've worked in clean technology for 20 years. I do think there is a real opportunity, and the government of Canada is willing to partner financially with the sector to actually move to, to, to try all these systems, to try to cost, cost-optimize these systems. But I think there's an opportunity for British Columbia to lead from a technology perspective and be a major producer in a, in a way that is environmentally protective.

NK: There are deep concerns -- as, as you already know. Timothy Kennedy -- the president of the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance -- is lobbing accusations and saying your government has -- quote -- embraced a position that reflects unaccountable and extreme activist voices instead of embracing a balanced pathway towards economic opportunity, increasing healthy and affordable home-grown food, recognizing an exceptional level of Indigenous collaboration and economic reconciliation, and incrementally greater environmental protection, unquote. What do you say to Mr. Kennedy?

JW: Well -- with due respect to Mr. Kennedy -- he knows that the commitment was made in 2019. So this shouldn't be news to him. But I would also say that, that he, he is just -- you know -- I recognize that he and his organization have a particular view about the science of the impacts associated with this. But that is not a view that shared with, by virtually any of the academics in this space, by established and respected institutions like the Pacific Salmon Foundation. Part of what the salmon farmers need to do is acknowledge that there is a real concern here, and there are real scientific challenges and that we need to work together to find ways to ensure that we are not having an impact on Pacific salmon. I would invite the sector to work with us with respect to the development of close containment systems that can allow us to -- you know -- seize economic opportunities but do so in a way that is protective of an iconic species in British Columbia that is on the verge of extinction.

NK: On the other hand, there are differing views -- as we've said -- different entrenched positions. Isaiah Robinson -- who's the deputy chief of the Kitasoo Xai'xais Nation, speaking to Canadian Press -- says his Nation relies on wild salmon. And you're government's policies are -- quote -- based off of wealthy billionaires, politicians, and activists. End quote. So, we see the range of, of responses here. But, but what do you say to those who share Deputy Chief Robinson's position?

JW: Well, you are absolutely right that there are different views and perspectives. And it's important for us to listen to all of them. In the context of First Nation communities. You know, I was joined yesterday by former chief Bob Chamberlain, who runs the Wild Salmon Alliance -- which is 120 First Nations across British Columbia that have called for the removal of open-net pens. I recognize that there are some communities for whom these, these farms provide economic opportunity. It is incumbent on the government to engage those communities in conversations around transition, around economic opportunity, around closed containment to try to find pathways that can work for everybody. But -- at the end of the day -- we cannot simply say that we're going to disregard the environment because it's so important economically. That's how we got into the situation we're in with climate change, that's how we got into the situation we're in with biodiversity loss, with plastics in our water. We actually have to save the environment is important too, and we need to find pathways where we can actually have economic prosperity and jobs and protect the environment, not simply choose one over the other.

NK: Minister Wilkinson, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JW: Not at all. Thank you very much.

CH: Jonathan Wilkinson is the federal minister of natural resources. We reached him in Ottawa.

[acoustic guitar]

MMIW Walk

CH: Over the past week, Clarence Abraham has walked more than 150 kilometres. It's been hard on his body, but he says he can deal with that. What he won't accept is the pain Indigenous women in British Columbia continue to feel. Last Friday, the 55-year-old Takla Nation man embarked on a walk of about 370 kilometres -- that will take him along the Highway of Tears and end in Burns Lake. He doing it to raise awareness about Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women -- including his cousin, Carmelita Abraham. The CBC caught up with Clarence Abraham yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

CLARENCE ABRAHAM: I'm doing this walk is for Carmelita, Maggie, Maddison Scott -- all the ones that have no voice right now. Like, all the one that's missing. I want to find a closure. I'm trying to get a closure on all of them. This is not the first time I'm going to be walking. Next year, I'll be starting this June 1st. I'll be walking to Terrace. Like, anyone who wants to join me can join. Bring a vehicle -- eh! Walk, ride, just have awareness, just keep this up so it doesn't, everybody forgets. Just keep going and just keep doing what they do. Like, people will get the message. You see all these people -- all their loved ones -- who are -- like -- some of them are in relationships getting abused and that. And some of the women have children, and trying to find the mother is pretty hard. They're growing up with no mother, and that's hard. Women have parents, grandparents, sister, brothers. They're the ones who are hurting the most. They're the ones hurting the most out of all. So, trying to find, trying to get a closure for them -- for all of them -- and keep all women safe. I'm 10 months clean from drugs and alcohol. So, I wan't to spread the news -- like -- it's hard, it's a hard trip, it's it's a hard road but I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep doing this until I can't walk anymore -- every year.

JASON PROCTOR: You're walking from Takla to Burns Lake -- which is, by my calculation -- about 370 kilometres. How has it been going so far?

CA: Well, it's going good. You meet lots of people. Like, you, people, they stop by you and they ask, what, what are you do doing? I tell them I'm walking for the MMIW. I got to turn the turn-off from Tache to Fort St. James. Tache Reserve came out and greeted me. Bring me food, drinks. Then I got to Binche. They did the same thing for me. The chief even walked up, walked up the Binche hill with me. And -- like -- a few of the guys there. That was so awesome. I got into Fort St. James, they all came, they all drummed for me, sang, and -- like -- just made me feel literlally just awesome to be. Like, I'm proud of -- like -- what they did.

CH: That was Clarence Abraham talking to the CBC's Jason Proctor yesterday about the walk he's doing to raise awareness about Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women.

[western]

Belarus Activist Extradition

Guest: Andrei Gnyot

CH: Andrei Gnyot was not the public face of the opposition in Belarus. He did most of his work behind the scenes. But he still might soon find himself in a Belarussian prison. Like many activists, he went into exile when President Alexander Lukashenko cracked down on the protest movement. And he thought he was safe abroad. But last fall, when he travelled to Serbia to work on filming a TV ad, he was arrested at the airport and thrown into jail. And now, a Serbian court has ordered his extradition to Belarus. While he waits for his appeal, Andrei Gnyot is living under house arrest in Belgrade. That's where we reached him.

NK: Andrei, how are you passing the time under house arrest?

ANDREI GNYOT: Oh -- you know -- my time at house arrest is going very fast. I work from morning 'till night. This is the time for my self-defence. So, I'm fighting all the day. Sometimes, I have no time for food.

NK: You have no time for food because you're working so hard to prepare your defence -- fighting for yourself, your life.

AG: Yeah. And this is ridiculous because in jail, I didn't know what to do with that time. But here at house arrest, I have no time [chuckling] even for very simple things like food, exercises. You know, even I cannot speak with my family normally because I have no time for that.

NK: You were just released two weeks ago after spending months in prison in Serbia -- as you were saying. What were those days like?

AG: Yes, right. Those days in prison, I named -- like -- rehearsal of hell. Because it was really hard to me. I cannot say that I was punished by somebody. No, it's another kind. You know -- first of all -- I was in total isolation -- culture, isolation, intellectual isolation. I cannot speak with any people in normal way because them don't speak English well. So -- one day -- I count how many words I say. Like -- three -- like good morning, like bon appetite, and goodnight.

NK: So, you're, you're released -- but under house arrest -- and then you receive an extradition order. If you are sent back to Belarus, what will that mean for you?

AG: Oh, this is this. This is this with terrible tortures -- even death penalties. They extrodite me to Belarus. With me, what happens the same what happens with every political prisoner. And this is the nightmare. For example, they put the special yellow label on the clothes just to mark them. And they have terrible tortures. And during these tortures, you lose your mind, you lose your health, and after that, you have some choice without choice. You can die, or you can kill yourself, or somebody can kill you and nobody knows the reason. After that -- usually -- they say, oh, this guy died, but we don't know what happens with him.

NK: I want to tell our listeners a bit about how you got here, how you got to this, into this situation. You were involved in -- in 2020 -- in organizing an alliance of athletes. What was that alliance meant to do?

AG: I was under and the head of Athletes Union. We named this Union of Free Athletes of Belaus. And we was fighting for human rights in our country, not only for athletes. We must fight for our people. We demanded for new, crystal-clear and open presidential elections in our country. In 2022, the Belarusian regime put our organization to extremist list. So now, they say that our organization are extremist organisation. And this is the big danger to me -- of course. And -- at the same time, in 2020 -- I was working as a journalist for many independent media like Radio Liberty Europe. But without my name and surname. I was working and -- you know -- we was fighting for our freedom. We was fighting for democracy.

NK: What were you doing that the, that the government there thought was extreme?

AG: [laughing] I think just because we have another opinion, just because we was fighting for our rights, just because we will not agree with that fake elections.

NK: How did you end up getting arrested in Serbia?

AG: I was arrested directly in airport on passport control. So, I arrived to Belgrade for TV commercial. It was the project -- big international project. Hired me to be TV commercial director. So, I arrived. I was very calm. I expect nothing wrong. But something went wrong.

NK: You had been to Serbia before.

AG: Sure.

NK: This was not your first time visiting -- and visiting recently.

AG: This is not my first time.

NK: What happened? Why? Why now? And, and -- you know -- there was an Interpol warrant for alleged financial crimes. You believe that has nothing to do with it. Why did it happen this time?

AG: Yeah. Just in three months after the Belarusian regime took me to Interpol list. I think maybe it was searching about me. Maybe they, they knew that I planned to visit Serbia again. Nobody knows. But my first visit to Serbia was perfect. But the second one was a big mistake.

NK: How do you feel about your chances as you, as you prepare to fight and you hope to stop this extradition?

AG: You know -- to be honest -- 'till now, I feel nothing about my chances. I just want to believe that I have a chance to save my life. Because I don't want to die. This is unbelievable. For what? Just because I have my own opinion? And I was fighting for democracy, for human rights, and they want to kill me. I really know that in Belarus, they will kill me. But for what? So, let's speak about Serbia. What I expect. I expect nothing. For now, I just want to spread information about me. I just want to shout, please help me. So -- for now -- I have no any expectations. The, my chances are like 50/50.

NK: Andrei, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

AG: Thank you a lot.

NK: Take care, Andrei.

AG: Thank you so much.

CH: Andrei Gnyot is an activist, journalist, and TV ad director from Belarus. He's in Belgrade, Serbia.

[industrial]

Sudbury Homeless Complaint

CH: A Sudbury, Ontario man is frustrated that unhoused people in that city don't have access to proper washrooms. So much so that he's filed a complaint with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal against the city, for refusing to provide public washrooms in the downtown. Holland Marshall says people have been forced to relieve themselves in public spaces. And last week, he told CBC's Kate Rutherford why he couldn't stand for that.

SOUNDCLIP

HOLLAND MARSHALL: Last summer -- in August -- they had a protest here at city hall, requesting that the city put in washrooms downtown. Not a single councillor, not a single city staff came up to meet the maybe 12, 15 people there.

KATE RUTHERFORD: And why were you personally interested in this? A lot of people would not get engaged in this. Why are you?

HM: It's probably the way I've been. I was born and raised in Timmins and left Timmins at 18. I've seen how, what poverty's like in Timmins. And I -- when I was first working in my 20s -- I became a union rep in my local union, and I was the president of Brampton District Labour Council. I went down to California on two trips to help organize the farmworkers. It's kind of my background. These people have it the worst. Now, I'm not happy with drug addiction. I'm really, really upset that it's happening. And I'm really upset that, that we're not close; we're not putting an end to it. We're, we're allowing it to fester. We're allowing new people to get addicted. And -- you know -- so that it's just this problem just gets bigger and bigger. But these people have nothing. So we have to -- as a society -- we have to do the minimum, at least a minimum for them. Clean water, drinking water is a problem, somewhere to wash your hands is a problem, going to the bathroom. So, they are going be behind trees, they're going under, in corners of buildings. And because it's on private property, the city says it's not our problem. It's up to the, the office buildings to send their custodians and their cleaners to do it. And if you're running a small shop in downtown, you got to do it yourself.

KR: And you filed a human rights complaint against the city. Tell me what sparked that?

HM: The city was ignoring everything. They refused to recognize the need for public washrooms. The business association last January was, or this was asking for them and got nowhere. The protest got nowhere. The city just says we're not doing it. And -- you know -- there is reasons why -- you know -- the, the, reluctant to help the homeless. Sure, some of them will use drugs in there. Some of them will leave a mess. That's true. You know, we're not talking about middle-class people with middle-class habits. You know -- to some degree -- that's why the public, the city has to take the responsibility for this.

CH: That was Holland Marshall speaking with the CBC's Kate Rutherford. In a statement to our colleagues in Sudbury, the city said it takes the issue of homelessness very seriously. And is dedicated to working collaboratively with community partners and stakeholders to find solutions.

[hip-hop beat]

Part 3: Voyager Data, Bear Marathon

Kinew Landfill Search

CH: Today, Manitoba released the details of its plans to search a Winnipeg-area landfill in hopes of recovering the remains of Indigenous women murdered by a serial killer. Premier Wab Kinew announced that the search would be conducted in five stages -- with excavation of the Prairie Green Landfill set to begin this September. He told reporters today about his experience informing the families of the women about the plans.

SOUNDCLIP

WAB KINEW: It's a mission to attempt to recover the remains of Morgan Harris and Mercedes Myron. So, I want to acknowledge the tremendous advocacy effort that these two families have brought forward to ensure that this issue remains on our public agenda -- and indeed -- the national agenda a that. And -- last week -- when we had the opportunity to visit Prairie Green after spending some time here and sharing the plans with these families and Indigenous leaders and cultural leaders who have been supporting these families, we also had the opportunity to spend some time at the Prairie Green site with daughters, siblings, grandparents of Morgan and Mercedes. And it was a very powerful time to stand on the site and to just after we had smoked the pipe and done our ceremonial process together to just watch them and talk to them and listen to them. And what I would share as -- you know -- the person who's been honoured to, to serve in the role that I currently have is that there is something significant about what these families are bringing forward that is bigger than any of us. And it is an ability to speak a truth and an ability to ask the public of Manitoba to live up to the ideals that I think we all agree on. Which -- again -- are ideals of caring, committedness to one another, and an idea for a social good. So -- with that in mind -- I just wanted to thank -- sincerely -- the family of Morgan Harris and the family of Mercedes Myron for never stopping with their advocacy and continuing to call on us collectively as Manitobans and specifically as your provincial government to do the right thing.

CH: Premier Wab Kinew, speaking to reporters earlier today at the Manitoba Legislature in Winnipeg.

[aquarium ambient]

Voyager Data

Guest: Kareem Badaruddin

CH: Long-distance relationships are always tough. Especially when you're extremely dependent on someone who's extremely far away. But now -- after five months of estrangement -- NASA's Voyager 1 has reconnected with Earth. Last November, Voyager started sending back gibberish. Which was unfortunate but not surprising since it's been in space for close to 50 years now. But the spacecraft has been vital in gathering data -- so now that it's back online, its operators are very much hoping to keep it that way. Kareem Badaruddin heads the engineering and technical team for the Voyager 1 spacecraft. We reached him in Pasadena, California.

NK: Kareem, what did it look like and sound like in your lab -- in your space -- when you get Voyager 1 back online?

KAREEM BADARUDDIN: Well, there was, there was cheering, a lot of joy [NK chuckles] -- I would say -- camaraderie, and just, just -- you know -- warm feelings.

NK: What time of day did it, did it come back online?

KB: In the, in the morning.

NK: Yeah? It, was there an overnight staff that was there? Just, I'm just trying to get a sense of, of how the lab was working over all these months to get it back online -- to get to that moment of relief.

KB: So, we had commanded two days earlier. So -- you know -- the spacecraft is left the solar system, and it's out in the interstellar medium. It's almost a light day -- the distance light travels in a day -- away from us. And so, that's -- you know -- it takes a full day for a signal to reach the spacecraft. That's our commands. And a full day for those results to come back to us. So -- from the time we command -- it's almost two days before we find out how our commands worked. So, when we sent the commands for the spacecraft to resume operating properly, we knew exactly when we would find out on Earth. So, it was like a two-day -- well, 44 hour -- wait. And we knew exactly what time to be listening.

NK: And that -- I can only imagine -- adds to the anticipation. What are you looking for? What does it look like when you hear -- finally -- from Voyager 1?

KB: We're looking at monitors where our ground data system has processed the data that comes from the spacecraft. And there's a sequence of the way the telemetry is processed. And you never know exactly where you will be. So you never know exactly which channel will be visible first. It's nice to be in a room full of experts because one of the experts will see what they're looking for first. And then that person -- in this case, it was, it was, Roger Ludwig, telecom expert -- first observed the telemetry that he needed to see to, to confirm. And -- you know -- it's funny, I actually was looking for something else that I hadn't seen yet. And so, the room is erupting -- oh -- great work! And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not sure yet. [chuckling] It's kind of a slow-developing thing [NK chuckles]. It's not a -- you know -- eureka moment. It's more like a eureka moment spread out over an hour -- you know? [chuckling]

NK: Yeah. Understood. Understood. If we go back to when these problems started -- I mean -- Voyager 1 has been doing its thing for, for nearly 50 years. What kind of technical issues were you dealing with here?

KB: Well, it was, it was quite challenging because the way the anomaly presented was in November. There was no telemetry. There was a carrier signal which told us that the radio was working, but the flight computers were not putting any data into that radio signal. We just had sort of a flat radio signal. So we knew the spacecraft was pointing at Earth and we knew the radio was working, but we knew there was a serious problem in that the flight computers weren't trying to communicate with us. So we needed to figure out why that was. And what we wanted to do was get the memory of the flight computers down to Earth. So we quickly recognized that the problem must be in the data handling computer -- the flight data subsystem. We needed to get the memory of the FDS. And we collect memory readouts regularly. So we know what, what's supposed to be in the memory. And the memory -- of course -- is the program that the computer is running. So, if we can look at that program, we can compare what it is to what it should be and see why it's not working. The challenge was to do that without getting any information from the spacecraft -- which was quite a challenge.

NK: Were you worried? Were you worried at any point over these months that -- you know -- it might not be operational again?

KB: Yeah, we knew there was a chance that we were never coming back. But -- you know -- we're engineers; we solve problems. Until we had tried everything we could think of, we were motivated to keep trying.

NK: You kept trying. How do you go about fixing this from 24 billion kilometres away?

KB: We brought in people who have expertise in spacecraft, and they had to learn about the Voyager spacecraft. And I think the flight team had to do a lot of learning, too. We all went, [chuckling] we all went to school. It is -- you know -- somebody used the analogy what's, it's like finding out that you need surgery. But first, you got to go to medical school. [both laugh]

NK: So -- ultimately -- what was it? What was the -- I mean -- for those of us who aren't engineers and don't understand -- you know -- and don't know how this technology works, but how would you describe it -- you know -- that, the, the thing that, that solved it -- yeah.

KB: The basic problem was there was a broken or a failed part in the memory. And the memory is 8,000 words. This chip was responsible for 256 of those words. And so, 256 of our 8,000 words were suddenly corrupted when this chip failed. So, we had to relocate the code -- the software around that failed part.

NK: Since -- you know -- since it first launched in 1977 -- up till now -- certainly we have many other sophisticated tools observing space and sending back information. Why is Voyager 1 so essential in your view?

KB: I think it's because it's sort of like a bonus mission to the interstellar medium. Well, it is a bonus mission. And what I mean by bonus mission is the purpose of the Voyager spacecrafts -- both Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 -- was to study the gas giant planets of our solar system. And -- in particular -- Jupiter and Saturn. But -- you know -- and stretch goals were for Uranus and Neptune. We did all of that. But that's what the mission was designed for. And so, anything after Saturn was gravy, and we got a lot of gravy with Uranus and Neptune. And then we reached the interstellar medium. We left the solar system. And it took 35 years for Voyager 1 to do that. And then Voyager 2 did it another six years later, Right? And so now, these spacecraft are the only spacecraft we have in the interstellar medium that are actually returning science data, real data from the interstellar medium. And if -- you know, on Earth -- we were to say, hey, we need a spacecraft in the interstellar medium, we want to go study the interstellar medium. It would take 35 years to send that spacecraft there. I don't think anyone is ever going to fund a mission that will take 35 years before it starts returning data.

NK: Kareem, thank you for your time.

KB: You're very welcome.

CH: Kareem Badaruddin heads the engineering and technical team for the Voyager 1 spacecraft. We reached him in Pasadena, California.

[buddy cop music?]

Stonehenge Vandalism Folo

CH: They've targeted famous paintings, blocked traffic, and smashed a display case containing the Magna Carta. And now -- as we told you on last night's show -- the group Just Stop Oil has defaced another cornerstone of British history -- temporarily, anyway. Yesterday, activists sprayed coloured powder on Stonehenge. Today, Ben Larsen from Just Stop Oil joined TV host Jeremy Vine to explain his group's methods. Here is part of that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

JEREMY VINE: Ben Larson, what did Stonehenge ever do to you?

BEN LARSON: Well -- hi, Jeremy -- thanks for having us on. The question you're asking here is just totally way off the mark. So, you're saying should Just Stop Oil just bog off? Should they, should they go away?

JEREMY VINE: I didn't, I didn't say bog off. But let's, we can use bog off if you'd like.

BL: Okay, okay. We can, we can say what we like. But when, when's the last time you got a fossil fuel executive in here on this lovely panel show and asked them, should they just be in jail?

JV: I'll ask you about Stonehenge. So, why damage Stonehenge?

BL: I know you're asking about Stonehenge, but it just shows how off your priorities are. You're talking about dust on an old rock instead of continued extraction of oil and gas that is literally heading to the collapse of British society.

JV: Well, you could justify any action at all with that argument. You could say, this is so serious, we can do anything.

BL: The actions that need to be justified are continued the extraction and burning of North Sea oil and gas.

JV: But where do you draw the line? Would you burn down Buckingham Palace?

BL: Well, we haven't. I mean, we've, we've --

JV: But do you, is there a line anywhere?

BL: So, let's look at what was actually done here. So a bit of orange dust is sprayed on a rock that has weathered 5,000 years of British weather. All we have to do is just wait for a bit of wind and rain to take it off.

CH: That was Ben Larsen from Just Stop Oil on Jeremy Vine's TV show in the U.K. today.

[industrial]

Bear Marathon

Guest: Andrew Payne

CH: Andrew Payne still isn't sure whether he should be celebrating. The B.C. runner was the first across the finish line in last weekend's Banff marathon. But it isn't clear yet whether he'll be declared the winner because the race was repeatedly interrupted by some non-competitive runners hanging out on the race course -- runners who compete in thick fur coats. We reached Andrew Payne in Osoyoos, B.C.

NK: Andrew, there is certainly -- even though I haven't run a marathon -- I know that there's a lot to prepare for mentally and physically when you're going to run a marathon. Were you prepared for what you ended up coming across?

ANDREW PAYNE: No. Even, even if I didn't end up running across a grizzly during the race, it's a tough course. There's a lot of elevation. So, the lack of oxygen definitely had an impact. So, I wasn't prepared to begin with, [NK chuckles] let alone for what happened on the course.

NK: And when did you realize that there was going to be an additional obstacle -- or many -- [chuckling] beyond the ones you listed there?

AP: So everything seemed normal at first. You know, I have a nervousness at the beginning of every race, and everyone's lining up to the washroom -- you know -- trying to get one last go in [NK chuckles] before the race starts. And then, they gave their speech, and then they gave us the green light, they blew a horn, and we're off to the races. For the first five kilometres, everything was normal. And that's when we had our first stop. The first stop was breif. It was about a minute or so. And it just, it just really does take it out of you. Like when you finally reach -- like -- cruising speed, and you're -- like -- everything's -- like -- going by and you -- like -- you kind of start to get into a relaxed mode, it just throws you out completely mentally.

NK: And just to be clear, what stopped you?

AP: So, the first time -- the 5K -- I was told it was a black bear crossing the road. I didn't see it, but I was told there was a crossing.

NK: Okay. And had organizers prepared you and the other runners for, for the possibility of something like this before the race?

AP: They were prepared for small stoppages. At all the aid stations, they had someone with a clipboard to write down bib numbers. So if we got stopped, they could record the stop time and then the restart time. But, anything more complicated than a couple of people stopping, it was going to be very difficult for them to keep track of.

NK: Then they say -- okay -- get started again. How are you getting back in the game?

AP: I've, just following the other races at the start there. I was a little worried because it's the, on the way, it's an outback course. And on the way out, it's all uphill. And on the way back, it's mostly downhill. So I thought maybe they knew something I didn't about how difficult it was going to be. So, I thought I was going to hold back a little bit and follow the people in the front just to save my energy in case I need it.

NK: And then you get stopped again.

AP: Yeah, we stopped at the 10K mark. So, another 5K in, we get stopped. And I thought -- okay -- it's going to be like another minute or two.

NK: Again, bears.

AP: Within five minutes...yes. This time, it's two black bears. And -- apparently -- they've decided to just sprawl out in the middle of the road and have a good time.

NK: [chuckling] And what are you thinking and saying at this point?

AP: Well, some of us said out loud -- or I was thinking -- I didn't say this out loud but someone else said, why doesn't Parks Canada just move them? But then one of the volunteers said -- well -- Parks Canada treats this as their territory, so if they want to stay in the road, we are at their whims.

NK: Yeah. I mean, you're, you're running a race in their, in their backyard I guess is how they're looking at it. So, how long was this one -- this stop?

AP: It was at least 30 minutes, maybe 40 minutes.

NK: Oh wow! So, what does that do to your concentration? Are you running in place for half an hour?

AP: No. At first, I was just standing still, thinking it wasn't to be long. But then I started walking around. More and more as the athletes got there, I think before we got started, at least everyone from the marathon -- at least most people from the marathon field -- had reached the 10K mark. And we were now lining up. And the line had gotten quite large. And I made the mistake of thinking, I'm going to go to the back and get some aid -- like, get some Gatorade, use the washroom.

NK: Sure.

AP: You know, heal myself because I didn't know how long we were going to be there. The problem with that strategy is the, it's, they released all the runners without any warning.

NK: Oh no!

AP: And I was at the back, and I'm like -- okay -- I got some extra distance I got to make up now.

NK: And then you get stopped again.

AP: Yeah. [NK laughs] Well, before, before the stoppage, we hit the halfway point.

NK: Sure.

AP: And because it's an out-and-back, I could see the people in the front and I realized they weren't that far ahead. And because it's downhill on the way back, I think I can catch up to them. And I was almost caught up to them at the 30K mark where we got stopped again. I wasn't quite caught up, but I was, I was, I was making up time.

NK: And then you ran into more bears?

AP: So this time, we were told it was two grizzlies on the road. The last time, I was told black bears. And this time, were being specifically told grizzlies.

NK: What are you thinking at this point? I mean, I know we talked about it gets you -- you know -- in your head and you're worried about the race. But these are also dangerous animals.

AP: Well there is, there was just so many of us. I thought -- well, I mean -- they might be attracted to all the sugar at the aid stations. Something must be keeping these bears on the road. And they're saying, we've done this before, and we've never had this many bears on the course before. So, something's different this year. This is an area they want to hang out as this year.

NK: Right. So, you push ahead, and then you finish first. How did that feel? And how long -- what was your time?

AP: So, my time on the watch was 3:01. My overall time was four hours and 32 minutes [NK chuckles] because it's an hour-and-a-half of stopping for the bears.

NK: Yeah.

AP: But once we start at the 30K mark, I did some mental math, and I thought, as long as I push hard, I can still win this. So, I start pushing hard, and then we turn the first corner, and there's a grizzly right there on the road right in front of us.

NK: [laughing] And what was it like to be so close to them?

AP: I grew -- well -- I didn't grow up. I lived on the Sunshine Coast for a little bit, and we had black bears in the area all the time. and I'd go for an early morning run and I'd see a black bear, and I just ignore it because it's like they're not that big. And, and they just kind of just sit there and ignore you, too. But I saw this thing and I'm like, I'm not going anywhere near this thing. This thing was massive. It was way bigger than anything I've ever seen.

NK: So, we mentioned you finished first, but things aren't official yet. You've got this great story to tell, but you don't have the official win. So, how are organizers going to figure this out?

AP: They're going to do their best, and whatever time to come up with is the time they're going to give me, and I -- like -- that's the best I can hope for.

NK: Andrew, I appreciate your time.

AP: Thank you.

CH: Andrew Payne is a B.C. marathoner. We reached him in Osoyoos, B.C.

[diner music?]

FOA: Missing Rolex Returned

CH: It's a terrible feeling when you lose something small and precious. You turn everything upside down to find it, looking in places it absolutely could not be, in a wild-eyed, heartbroken panic. And -- in the end -- you look around the mess you've created and realize it's just gone. We've all been there. But few of us have had the kind of resolution 95-year-old James Steele got.The farmer from Shropshire, England, lost his Rolex watch decades ago while he was out working in the fields. And after taking a long, hard look around, he assumed the worst.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES STEELE: The cow could have eaten it with a mouth full of grass. That said, it was possible. It could have been -- like -- under a cow pat. When we come to look later, I ploughed this field umpteen times but never seen the thing.

CH: James Steele telling the BBC how he may have lost his Rolex watch back in the 1970s. And the watch stayed lost until a man with a metal detector asked to search the Steele family's land for coins and happened upon the watch. And -- half a century after it was lost -- he returned it to James Steele.

SOUNDCLIP

JS: You know, it hasn't rusted up. The face has gone a bit -- you know -- greenish.

HOST: It really is a marvellous story that you've been able to find after all that time.

JS: Well -- look. You know, it's like the old parable: seek and ye shall find.

CH: Exactly: "Seek and ye shall find". Or -- you know -- have someone with a metal detector seek for you. Of course -- over the years -- we've spoken to a lot of people who pour their time and effort into seeking lost treasures. People like David Crisp, who hit the motherlode in 2010 --when, while searching a farmer's field near Somerset, England -- he found a trove of Roman coins -- 52,500 of them.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID CRISP: Well, it was just a day off from my job. And what I do on my day off I go out metal detecting. And that, that particular day, I walked across the field, I was going somewhere else to another field, and I got a signal. And it wasn't a particularly good signal, but a signal -- an iffy signal. So I started to dig, and I dug a bit deeper and a bit deeper, and it was still there. And then I was down over a foot, and it was still there. So I got my little knife out, and I started a probe, and I went down another sort of six inches, and I'm right into the subsoil then. And I pulled a bit of clay out, and there was a black object stuck to it, and I thought it was a rock. And then I realized it was actually a piece of Roman pottery. And I pulled another piece of clay out and turned it over. And there was a Roman little small Roman radial -- a little Roman coin. And there it was.

PETER ARMSTRONG: Did you know right away what you had?

DC: Yes, yes, they're very distinctive -- these Roman coins. They're very small bronze, got a little bit of silver in them -- apparently, but not very much -- and they're very distinctive. So -- you know -- a metal detectorist or anybody knows a little bit about it can see that what they are straight away.

PA: So you found one. Did you keep digging to see if there would be more?

DC: Yeah, I pulled a few more bits out and I had a few more bits -- a few more coins -- stuck to the rest of the clay. And -- by that time -- I was pushing the clay apart -- you know -- breaking it open. And there was a few more coins there. And then I realized, I sat back on my heels and thought I've found a Roman hoard -- a Roman hoard of Roman coins. And I could tell because they were the radiates. I knew that they were roughly 250 to 300 A.D. And when I actually checked later on, I could, I cleaned one up, and I was back on, really.

PA: So, you must have just been -- you know -- that's enough to make the heart go pitter-patter.

DC: Well, it is. I knew I had, I didn't know what size it was. You know, I knew it was a Roman find. I knew it was a Roman pot with Roman coins in. But I had no idea what the size actually was. And until I left it like that and let the archaeologists, because the archaeologists over here, they loved to dig these things in situ so they can actually see how the coins were in the pots. And because I work so closely and so well with our local archaeologists, I thought -- no -- I'll leave it for them because they will be overjoyed.

PA: How on earth -- though -- did you manage to resist the temptation to not dig this whole thing up yourself?

DC: It was, it was very hard, I must admit. But common sense prevailed, and I came home. And my family, they thought I was crazy. They literally all thought I was mad. [PA chuckles] The way I looked at it, it'd been there for 1,800 years, so a few more days wouldn't really matter. I didn't know how many there was. I mean, they could have been a little small pot of them, about the size of a tin. But as it turned out, it was the size of a beer barrel.

PA: [chuckling] It's the weight of two men, I understand.

DC: Yeah, 160 kilograms.

PA: Now, I've read somewhere that this is worth £250,000. You're going to get a piece of that, I presume?

DC: Well, yeah. What it's worth is speculation. What'll happen is as soon as it's been declared treasure by our coroner, the, the find and treasure valuation committee, they're completely independent of everybody else. They work from the British Museum, and they will decide.

PA: But presumably, you can go out and buy yourself something on spec. Assuming you'll get some money.

DC: Well, yeah. I, I suppose you could. There must be a good drink in it for me and the, the farmer that [PA chuckles] let me go on his land. You know, he was very nice, him and his wife -- Jeff and Anne -- they were very nice. And -- of course -- they're pleased as well. They're over the moon for -- you know -- for me finding it because they are both interested in history and they like the old Romans as well.

PA: What has this been like for you? I presume you've never found anything quite to this extent before?

DC: Not as good as this. Not as good as this. That's been my best find so far.

CH: From Our Archives, that was metal detectorist David Crisp speaking to As It Happens guest host Peter Armstrong in 2010.

The AIH Transcript For June 20, 2024

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