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The Current Transcript for May 16, 2025

Host: Mark Kelley

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: I just know that redemption is possible. The Menendez brothers have done remarkable work. I'm hopeful that the right thing will be done and they'll walk out.

MARK KELLEY: It was a case that made headlines over and over again. In 1989, Jose and Kitty Menendez were found murdered in their Beverly Hills home. Their sons, Lyle and Erik, eventually confessed to the vicious killings and were sent to jail for life. Now, more than three decades later, the brothers have been given a chance for parole. In 30 Minutes, we look at why and the role of media and celebrity attention on the case. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

RICK MERCER: I don't know if we're the best country in the world, but we're the best looking. Like it just never stops. It's always worth the trip.

MK: Rick Mercer has seen most of Canada, so he was the perfect guest to help announce The Current's ultimate list of the best places to travel in this great country of ours as chosen by you, our listeners. In an hour, we'll take a radio trip around the country and get some great suggestions for places to visit right here at home. But first, how tariffs are affecting our neighbours to the south. With elbows up, travel to the US is down, way down. Good morning. I'm Mark Kelley, sitting in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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US BORDER TOWNS

Guests: Ali Hayton, Heidi Tappan

MK: Well, all across the country, Canadians are getting ready for the long weekend. And in years past, this might have meant heading south of the border for shopping and vacationing this weekend and all summer long for that matter. Now with tariffs and threats to Canadian sovereignty, cross-border travel is way down. Statistics Canada says that in April, trips by land dropped 35% compared to the same time last year, and that's having an impact on border communities in the United States. So we're going to check in with some of those communities. Ali Hayton is the owner of the Point Roberts International Marketplace. That's in Washington state, just south of British Columbia. Ali, good morning.

ALI HAYTON: Morning, Mark.

MK: You've sort of got this geographic anomaly where you are in Point Roberts. And for people who aren't familiar with it on a map, describe it to us. It's almost like Alaska to the north. The only way you can get to it by land is driving through Canada. So tell us about your connection to Canada.

ALI HAYTON: Yeah. So it's the 49th parallel divides us, and it's a two by one square mile piece of land that you drive up into British Columbia, head west as far as you can go, and then you drop back down. So it's beautiful, it's surrounded by water on three sides, it’s gorgeous, it's peaceful, and it’s just been really, really struggling the last five years. So.

MK: Yeah, I was about to say maybe it's a little too peaceful these days.

ALI HAYTON: Yes. For my taste, for sure.

MK: Yeah, tell us about, well, first, you run this store in Point Roberts. Tell us about your store.

ALI HAYTON: Well, it's a 38,000 square foot grocery store. We're built to serve 8000 customers a week, especially in the summer because it's a summer location. 70% of the homes there are built or owned by Canadians. They're summer homes. They're homes that have been in their family for generations. And they come down on long weekends like hopefully this weekend, summer vacation, spring break, and they just spend their time there. We also just get a lot of traffic from border towns in Canada where people want to come down and buy gas and milk and cheese and beer and wine and all those fun little American things that you can't get in Canada. We have the same reciprocal thing. You know, I remember as a kid going up to Victoria and buying Canadian candy that I couldn't get in America. And it's just always been easy back and forth. We have two drawers in every cash register. We take Canadian cash and American cash. And it’s just we've been, we have everything except for we don't have a pharmacy. There's no place to get your hair done, no place to get your nails done, no veterinarians, no anything else really. There are a lot of parcel pickups and gasoline and meat.

MK: Yeah. Well, it's convenience, and yeah, I know a lot of Canadians can relate to that. For cross-border shoppers, we've done this all our lives, but now, things have changed. And tell us about the change with the talk of, with the tariffs, with the talk of the 51st state. What is the impact? What have you seen directly in Point Roberts?

ALI HAYTON: Oh, directly. So I honestly thought when this started, it was rhetoric, it was just to get the border secure. And once we got, once we had that done, we were, this was over. I'm actually shocked that it's gone this far. Every time our president called Trudeau governor or mentioned the 51st state, I would just want to crawl into my skin. I just, I don't understand it. So I totally understand the Canadian sentiment of elbows up and don't come after us. And the thing that surprised me was how angry they got at us as individual people. I got some nasty emails that I wasn't expecting as a grocery store owner, but I understand it.

MK: Tell me about that. What kind of nasty emails would you get as a grocery store owner?

ALI HAYTON: So in the beginning, like I said, at the beginning, what I thought it was was just going to go away. And somebody, a reporter asked me, how do you feel about Eby telling people to boycott your store and your community? And I said I was devastated. How can a leader in a foreign country tell people to boycott me? I didn't do anything wrong. And people took that as me blaming Eby for all of this. And I wasn't. I put all the blame of this on our administration. So when that piece ran, I just got, you know, oh, you Americans, I hope you just all go, you love your guns, go kill each other.

MK: Oh boy.

ALI HAYTON: I hope everything rots on the shelves.

MK: But, you know, Ali, I read that article. It was in the Globe and Mail, and there was another quote in there from another colleague of yours in Point Roberts. The quote was, if we don't get the support from the Canadians, this town will die. Do you agree with that?

ALI HAYTON: We've got to get support from somewhere, and it's, I don't know where else it can come from. We're not, we've gotten zero from our county. We get a little bit of lip service from the state, but they're not actually doing anything. And the federal government obviously is not doing anything to help. So there's three restaurants left. Two of them are like on the ropes. The lady's just, she's mortgaged everything to keep them open. One of the parcel businesses that's been there for 24 years closed last month. Nobody wants to come and invest there because they just, after COVID, with the border closings we had, nobody ever saw that coming. So we didn't know really how to react to that. And then we kind of built our way back, but we never really got there. So when your border traffic says we're down 35%, that's 35% from last year, where we were still down 20% from pre-COVID levels. So We're really just, it's just fight and hang on. Like I said, my store is 38,000 square feet. If it was built to just serve that community, it could survive it 10,000 square feet and much fewer employees and a lot less overhead, but it's never been that. It has always been there to serve both communities. And I ran a promotion over Easter weekend taking Canadian cash at 80%, which brought a lot of people in and just kind of, I'm trying to remind people that we're the same people we've always been. Yes, we have an administration that's really hard to stomach right now with all of this, but we still need to be there when times are good for you. So we kind of need you to be here for us when they're not in order for us to survive.

MK: And what has been the impact on your bottom line?

ALI HAYTON: At least 30% every week to last year. So to pre-COVID years, you're talking 45 to 50% down.

MK: Yeah. You know, people, I’ve heard people talk about this, and people say, hey, look, it's nothing personal, you know, that we're not coming down there. But for you, you know, with these strong ties on both sides of the border, is it starting to feel personal?

ALI HAYTON: I know nobody means it that way, but I think what they don't understand is the long-term effects of their decision to boycott. I totally get the sentiment, but I've got people who depend on me to pay their mortgage, to have health insurance, to put clothes on their kids' backs. And if I don't have the customer count and the traffic to keep them all on, I don't know what else to do. I'm a very positive person, and I'm hoping things turn around. I'm excited that Canada elected a new prime minister, and the relationship there with him and Trump seems to be better than it was with Trudeau. And I'm hoping they can make some progress quickly and we can remind people that this is affecting real people. And, you know, there's no manufacturing here. There's no hotels. It is what it is. There's not a lot we can do. We just keep trying to do what we do best, and that's, you know, provide excellent customer service and provide the products that people want, and we’re still here.

MK: Yeah, you're still there. And I wonder at this point, Ali, who do you appeal to? I mean, do you appeal to Canadians to, you know, just help us out? Or do you appeal to your American politicians to say, look, this has got to change? I mean, what's the strategy?

ALI HAYTON: We’re trying everything.

MK: You’re trying everything. Fair enough.

ALI HAYTON: We're trying everything. Yeah, we had a roundtable with our US senator and a couple of mayors from some border towns in Canada.

MK: Are they listening?

ALI HAYTON: They're listening. I just don't know if they have any clout. I don't know if there's anything they can do. And the one thing I have learned, I did get a couple of emails on a last interview that where people were saying, well, oh, it was when I did my promotion. And one of them was, you can take Canadian at par, we'll never come back there. And I just, I took the time to respond and just say, you know what, I hear you and I feel your frustration and I'm really sorry and I just hope that we can be here when this is all over and you decide to come back. And four out of five of those people responded immediately and just said, thank you, thank you for hearing me, and we wish you the best. So I think the rest of us all just have to keep, you know, following the golden rule and treat others how you want to be treated and remind them that we are all just people. Regardless of what our administration is doing, there are real people that are suffering the consequences, and we just gotta keep trying.

MK: Ali, I wish you all the best.

ALI HAYTON: Thank you, Mark.

MK: Ali Hayton is the owner of the Point Roberts International Marketplace. We're heading now to the other end of the Canada-US border, to Vermont. Heidi Tappan is the co-owner of the North Hero House Inn and Restaurant. Heidi, good morning.

HEIDI TAPPAN: Good morning, Mark.

MK: I know you were just listening in to our conversation. How familiar is this experience to you?

HEIDI TAPPAN: Oh, I really feel for her in that I didn't understand where she's located, and she really has it to the extreme, it seems. But we're all feeling it. There's a ton of personal sadness, a lot of hugs that happen when we do see our Canadian friends and they come across and share who they are. We hug each other and there's sadness there. We've known them a long time. I've lived here my whole life, and I'm only 20 minutes from the border and a little over an hour to Montreal. And so we have gone back and forth. It's just, and then I'm on the lake. I'm on an island. I'm in the Champlain islands on the Lake. And so by boat or by land, we're that close. And so life in Vermont is always about sharing the joys of Lake Champlain with our Canadian neighbours. We have similar values of love, love of nature and serenity. So yeah.

MK: Yeah, Heidi, you grew up in Vermont and I grew up in Montreal. I know exactly where you are. We spent a lot of time growing up going down to Burlington, and where you are is a beautiful location. And there always has been this strong tie between the Canadians and especially in Vermont. We used to kid around that you were like another province. Now, if we were to say that, that seems like a loaded comment these days. But what's been the impact on your business?

HEIDI TAPPAN: Well, we are, we're definitely seeing, we tried to just, we had planned to do Canadian at par because of our slower season, and we launched it the same, literally like the same day or around the same day that the tariffs were announced. And we got some angry comments, and we had to pull it back. So we are…

MK: You got angry comments from who? From Americans? From Canadians? Who?

HEIDI TAPPAN: From Canadians, from the Canadians, yeah. They just, you know, said that we're boycotting you and we don't care if you have it at par. And, you know, we get it. We get how people are feeling. And so since then, so we did that really because we're open year round, but we're quite seasonal in that we’re in the Champlain Islands. So it's a much slower time for us there. A lot of Canadians have summer homes there. But we are continuing to extend an offer to our Canadian neighbours and for all Canadian residents, offering Canadian at par for the foreseeable future. The guests would need to book direct, and, but that's what we're doing. We're saying we're in it with you and we miss you and we'd love to see you. And so if this helps, great. And if you don't feel good about coming down, then we hope, you know, we hope and plan to still be here when things shift.

MK: Do you understand how Canadians feel right now?

HEIDI TAPPAN: Well, only so much so when you're not standing in someone else's shoes, right? So, of course, we love, you know, for us going across the border, especially from Vermont, if you know it so well, it's like a portal into another world. Like it gets electrified as you go over and you feel that cultural change. I mean, we love having a neighbouring country. How cool is that? And so for that to be discussed in a, you know, in the way that the current administration is discussing it is just jaw dropping. I don't really know what to say. And in terms of the tariffs, I get it. I get it. If that's what everybody so chooses, you know, understandably, then we respect it. We would still love to receive people and enjoy time together as we always have on, yeah.

MK: You know, in Canada, there's this feeling of hurt and betrayal, but what do you want on this side of the border? But what do you want Canadians to know, you know, about you, you know, fellow business owners down there and local neighbours? What do you want us to know?

HEIDI TAPPAN: Well, I don't think it's any secret that Vermont did not vote for the current administration. So regarding me and where we are in our, you know, our state, we are suffering for something we also didn't vote for. Now, that being said, I'm not trying to take the suffering away from Canada. I mean, we feel sick about it. We don't feel any differently about Canadians. We love Canadians. I have a ton of Canadian friends. I mean, we are, we value their, you know, we value the country and the border. And I mean, I grew up going to plazas in the fall and having the best marzipan ever. And so I still of course go, but to feel, to feel, it's sort of like a family member to feel that hurt and sadness. You feel helpless, like your hands are tied behind your back. You feel so sad. And so when I do see people at our businesses, we hug each other, and I just say I'm sorry. You know, you feel sad because it's not something we agree with, and yet we're all facing this situation. And so we understand the hurt, but to know that it's not something that we align with.

MK: Yeah. I saw, I was reading, and it was a few weeks ago where there was a gathering of Canadian Americans in Vermont and trying to put this message out that, you know, this has got to change. What can, I mean, politically, because this is a 100% political situation. Politically, what do you think can be done? Are you resigned to the fact that this is going to be for at least, you know, the next four years or as long as Trump is in power? Are you resigned to that reality or do you think that there can be a change?

HEIDI TAPPAN: I'm never resigned to anything that doesn't feel good, honestly. It's I have a lot of hope. So in the Champlain Islands, there's a coalition, a group of people who have sent a, we've all sent a formal apology to our Canadian neighbours. And, you know, we as humans can do a lot. And so I'm looking at the opportunities where we can engage, as that formal apology was one, sitting around the table with our Canadian friends as I did just a couple of days ago. They came down. They have a house on the islands, and we chatted, and we commiserated a bit together and laughed and had a little drink together, and it goes a long way. In terms of things really, you know, changing, we just have to do everything that we can. So looking for those opportunities. And we as a business are still saying, and we get it if people choose not to, but we're still saying we offer Canadian at par for our accommodations for the foreseeable future. So that’s, you know, we take a hit on that, but everybody is. So we're sort of like saying, you know, we're partners in this. Let's see if we can make it through this together.

MK: I admire your sense of optimism, and I think we all need to hold on to that optimism, but let me ask you this, because I've heard this, you know, anecdotally from people I know, conversations overheard, who’ve said, things will never be the same with the US. After this, you know, there's no going back. How do you feel about that? Do you think that we're going through this very difficult period of time, but it's something that we can pass through? Or do you think things have been changed irreversibly?

HEIDI TAPPAN: I without a doubt feel that it's not, that it can change. It's an administration, as you said. You very clearly, you know, said it's a political situation. And I think almost the bordering towns have a better, well, we have a really clear perspective because we have so many relationships. I mean, I grew up on the border also, and so many of my friends were French-Canadians. I mean, it's just the way that it is. And so there's a lot of love there. And so I think because it's a political situation and it's not really the people that are wanting this, that we have, we have an opportunity to go back to being the friendly neighbouring countries that we’ve been.

MK: Let's hope for that. Heidi, hang in there and stay strong.

HEIDI TAPPAN: Thanks so much. I appreciate your time, Mark.

MK: Heidi Tappan is the co-owner of the North Hero House Inn and Restaurant in Vermont. The CBC news is next, then.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: I disagree. I think any ban for women how to express themselves and how they want to dress is bad.

SPEAKER: And it's France after all. They love nudity here.

SPEAKER: No, no nudity. I say keep that for closed doors.

MK: Well, there's something new on the red carpet at the Cannes Film Festival, a dress code that declares an end to nudity for the stars. We'll reveal or uncover what that really means and how that's going over. I'm Mark Kelley, moonlighting for Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay close. We're back in six minutes.

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MENENDEZ BROTHERS

Guest: Robert Rand

MK: I'm Mark Kelley, and you're listening to The Current. It was a media spectacle from the very start. The brutal murder of the Los Angeles businessman Jose Menendez and his wife Kitty in their Beverly Hills home. Their two sons, Lyle and Erik, on trial, accused of killing their parents for the 14 million dollar inheritance. In 1996, the Menendez brothers were sentenced to life in prison without parole. They admitted to killing their parents, but they said their father sexually abused them. There have been numerous documentaries and dramas about the brothers. And then this week, 35 years after their arrest, a Los Angeles judge reduced the sentence, making Lyle and Erik Menendez eligible for parole. Anamaria Baralt is their cousin. She was at the LA courthouse this week.

SOUNDCLIP

ANAMARIA BARALT: These are tears of joy, for sure, and we're very excited. But ultimately, we are here today with this result because of Erik and Lyle, because they had, they chose to live their lives with clarity and a purpose of service that the judge was impressed by. And so a huge thanks to them too for being the kind of people that we could bring home.

MK: Robert Rand is an investigative journalist who has covered this story since the murders happened. He's the author of “The Menendez Murders.” He's in Los Angeles. Robert, good morning.

ROBERT RAND: Good morning from California.

MK: Yeah, when few people know this story as well as you do, Robert. So it's great to have you with us this morning. Take us into the courtroom if you could. What was it like during this resentencing when the judge made his decision?

ROBERT RAND: It was really a moment of relief for the family members of Erik and Lyle Menendez. They over the past seven, eight months have worked so hard at being their advocates. And when the judge made that ruling to resentence the brothers and reduce their sentence from life without parole to 50 years to life with the possibility of parole, and the family was really emotional. They were sobbing. The day ended with Erik and Lyle Menendez reading their statements to the judge. And so that was the capper to a day that was full of emotion and drama.

MK: Explain to us, what did the judge say about why he changed their sentence?

ROBERT RAND: Judge Michael Jessick said that he was shocked at the crime that Erik and Lyle Menendez committed in 1989, but he said at the same time he was shocked by the letters he received from officials at RJ Donovan Correctional Facility, the prison where the brothers are housed near San Diego. And Erik and Lyle Menendez were sentenced to life without parole, which really means you never get out in California. And yet, they chose a path of redemption. They chose to be of service to their inmate community. And I think that's what has really been a major factor that has led to them, you know, reaching this point. But it's not over yet.

MK: Right. But the prison is, in theory, it's there to both punish and to rehabilitate. Why do you believe they should be released?

ROBERT RAND: So Erik and Lyle Menendez, you know, they're not cartoon characters to me. I met them 35 and a half years ago when I spent three days with them interviewing them for the Miami Herald, and I was doing a biography for the Sunday magazine of the Herald. And it was two months after the killing of their parents, five months before they were arrested. And they told me very loving, caring stories about their family, and which they described as a very close knit family. And so they were 18 and 21 years old when I met them. Today, they are 57 and 54. So I've seen a major change in them over the years. And, you know, I think it's time. They have served 35 years in incarcerated, and, you know, I believe it's time for them to be released. We really have to, you know, look at the theory of prisons, and are they places where we just want to lock people up that commit terrible crimes? Or are they places where people can be rehabilitated and, you know, not be a danger to the public if they are let out?

MK: And it's interesting because their lawyer said that their conviction in the 90s was reflective of what he said, quote, A crazy collective lock them up and throw away the key mentality that we had, end quote. So, so I guess to some extent, this may be a sign of the times as well, this resentencing. But tell us about the impact that, you know, the publicity around this case, this publicity around the brothers themselves. Netflix had a, you know, had a series about this or documentaries about this. There were campaigns on TikTok and other social media by younger people who felt that the brothers were mistreated in the 90s. What impact do you think that this has had on this resentencing?

ROBERT RAND: I believe the social media support for the brothers, which by the way is all over the world. More than half of the supporters live outside of the US. But in the fall of 2020, my son who was 14 at the time came to me one afternoon and he said, dad, TikTok is full of Menendez Brothers videos. And I laughed. And then I went down the rabbit hole for the next three hours, watching all these videos that people were making on their own and posting on TikTok. And so after being down the rabbit hole for a period of several months, I called a friend of mine, an editor at the New York Times, and I said, I think this is a story. You know, this movement is growing. It's not going anywhere. It's growing in size.

MK: And what was fueling that movement, in your opinion, especially the fact, as you mentioned, that this was an international campaign? Why do people care?

ROBERT RAND: I believe that young people have a totally different attitude about sexual abuse. And, you know, now it's 30 years later from when the brothers were first on trial. Society has evolved. Now there's the hashtag Me Too movement, hashtag Men Too movement. And these issues are being talked about openly and, you know, at all levels of society. And when I interviewed all the jurors after the first trial, all the women had voted for manslaughter. All the men, except for one, had voted for murder. And all the men told me, well, a father would never do that to his sons. And I think now we have a different attitude about that.

MK: And you, as you mentioned, you'd met the guys, you interviewed them, and you were open to this idea that this really was a case of sexual abuse. Some people thought it was just all about the money, but you had a different feeling on that. Why was that?

ROBERT RAND: So I had the luxury of being a book author and being able to spend unlimited time with members of Jose Menendez and Kitty Menendez's families. And I was going on TV shows in the 90s and saying, I believe Erik and Lyle Menendez, but that wasn't based solely on their testimony at the trials. I spent so much time talking to Jose's sister, Marta Cano, and Kitty's sister, Joan VanderMolen. And initially, you know, they were very guarded in what they said. And then as time went on, they started opening up. And they knew something was very wrong in this family, but they weren't sure what.

MK: You uncovered some new evidence. Tell us about that.

ROBERT RAND: So we have two new pieces of evidence that are part of the case. And in fact, there's two paths to freedom that the brothers have right now. One is the resentencing, which obviously they were just resentenced. So that is going very well. There's a second path to freedom, which is called the habeas corpus petition that was filed the day after a documentary I was executive producer of, Menendez + Menudo: Boys Betrayed. And that documentary revealed the nefarious connection between the Latin boy band Menudo and Jose Menendez when he was head of RCA Records. And the primary character in our documentary was named Roy Rosselló. And Roy said, told us that he had been raped by Jose Menendez when he was 14 years old. And so that's, you know, one major piece of new evidence. The other major piece of new evidence is a letter that I found at the home of Erik's cousin, Andy Cano, the son of his sister, Marta Cano. And in late 1988, Erik wrote to him complaining about the ongoing sexual abuse by his father. And that letter was never part of either trial. Nobody knew that letter existed, and I just lucked into it when I was spending time finishing my book, interviewing Marta Cano, and she let me go through boxes of Andy's papers. Andy sadly passed away from an accidental sleeping pill overdose in 2003. And so, but he was a key defence witness in the first trial. And he testified that Erik Menendez told him about the abuse when he was 10 and Erik was 12 years old.

MK: As you mentioned earlier, Robert, you know, it's not over yet. The judge reduced their sentence to 50 years. Now they're eligible for parole. But what's the next step? And how likely is it that they will actually be released?

ROBERT RAND: Well, just to cut to the chase, I believe they will eventually be released, but I'm not sure when. It could be the end of this year. It could be next year. It could be two years from now. You know, Governor Gavin Newsom is really in charge of everything that's going on now. The next step for the brothers is to testify in front of the California parole board, and they will answer the question, have Erik and Lyle Menendez been rehabilitated and are they a danger to the public if they are released from prison? And I think they have definitely been rehabilitated, and I believe that they're no longer a danger to anybody.

MK: And I imagine you’ll continue to follow this case as you have been now for many, many decades. Robert, thank you for joining us this morning. We appreciate your time.

ROBERT RAND: Mark, you’re very welcome.

MK: Robert Rand is the author of “The Menendez Murders: The Shocking, Untold Story of the Menendez Family and the Killings That Stunned the Nation.”

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CANNES DRESS CODE

Guest: Katharine Zarrella

MK: I'm Mark Kelley, and you're listening to The Current, and that music is really getting me in the mood for this next interview. Halle Berry had an emergency outfit change at the Cannes Film Festival this week.

SOUNDCLIP

HALLE BERRY: I had an amazing dress by Gupta to wear tonight, and I cannot wear because the train is too big. So I, of course, I'm going to follow the rules. So I had to make a pivot. But the nudity part I do think is probably also a good rule.

MK: And those rules are the new dress code for the Cannes Festival. No nudity, as she was mentioning, and no voluminous outfits, especially those with large trains. Every spring, stars descend on the French Riviera to attend the festival. And the Cannes red carpet style is known for being big and bold and cheeky, sometimes quite literally, with nearly naked dresses. People on the streets of Cannes weighed in on the new rules.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: I think freedom of expression is fine.

SPEAKER: I think you do you. I don't see the problem with it. I'm not a prude.

SPEAKER: I think this is a formal event. We’re all dressed nice. Let's show off our nice clothes.

SPEAKER: I disagree. I think any ban for women how to express themselves and how they want to dress is bad.

SPEAKER: And it's France after all. They love nudity here.

SPEAKER: No, no nudity. I say keep that for closed doors.

MK: Fair enough. Katharine Zarrella is a fashion critic, writer, and lecturer at the Parsons School of Design in New York and Central Saint Martins Design College in England. She joins us from New York City. Katharine, good morning.

KATHARINE ZARRELLA : Good morning.

MK: In a New York Times opinion piece, you called the new dress code in Cannes, quote, tone deaf at best and misogynistic at worst. Tell us why you feel that way.

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: It's 2025, and I don't believe it's appropriate to police women or frankly anyone, any adult human being, you know, and what they're wearing. It’s, the festival was launched, you know, on the idea of free expression. It was actually a move against fascism. And the whole point is to be free and express oneself, and that this is the absolute antithesis of that.

MK: So, so which brings me to the question, why now, and like why now and who asked for this?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: You know, it's a little strange that it's happening right now. I mean, some people that I interviewed when I was writing my story suggested that it had something to do with the, you know, shifting political ideas to, you know, being more conservative. However, there was also some controversy at last year's festival as far as large dresses and, you know, two celebrities were stepped on. You know, one celebrity was stepped on, one got into a confrontation with a security guard about trying to show a train, and that received a lot of bad press. So I did ask the Cannes Film Festival press department why this was happening, and I didn't get a direct response. But I have to imagine that played into it in some small way.

MK: But were there people who were saying this has got to be reined in? I mean, were there people who were going public with their complaints?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: Not to my knowledge. I think that there's always a lot of opinion about fashion and what people are wearing. I mean, there's fashion commentary. That's the whole point of it. We all talk about what people wear at the Met Gala. Was it good, was it bad, and, you know, was it appropriate, which I think is a ridiculous word at this point in time. But I didn't hear anyone, you know, that I was in contact with, any of my sources or anyone in the industry saying, oh my gosh, the Cannes dress code is out of control.

MK: You also see hypocrisy in these rules, how so, but this idea about women, what they can wear on screen versus what they can wear on the red carpet.

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: Well, it seems that, you know, when women have autonomy and want to have control over how they present their bodies in real life, it's, oh no, that's absolutely lewd. Don't show your areola. But if it's on the screen and the director, whether it's a man or woman or otherwise, is saying, strip down, this is great for the art of the film, it’s totally fine. So it just seems a little strange to police it in one place and not in another.

MK: And we use that word policing. The festival press office says, in the use of their words, the aim is not to regulate attire per se, but to prohibit full nudity on the red carpet in accordance with the Institutional framework of the event and French law. That's a mouthful. What do you say to that?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: Well, first of all, the institutional framework of the event, as I mentioned previously, was all about freedom of expression and rebellion. So I don't think that that really tracks. But also, there's no definition, and I did ask them to clarify this, of what full nudity means. So is it a high slit? Is it a sheer top by a fantastic French designer? You know, it's not fair to put these rules in place and then not give anyone any real guidance.

MK: From what I understand, and I understand very little about this, so I'll be very upfront about that. Naked dressing is its own category of dressing now. So tell me, what is naked dressing?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: Naked dressing, there's a lot of manifestations of naked dressing now, but, you know, Cameron Diaz did it in 2000, and Beyonce really broke the mould when she did it, or in the 2000s, rather, and Beyonce broke the mould when she did it at the 2012 Met Gala in a Givenchy gown that actually had some modesty panels, but it was otherwise fully sheer and beaded, and it caused a huge sensation. And ever since then, it's been getting a bit more risqué and risqué and risqué. And now it's just, there's no modesty panels. It's just you can be as sheer and nude as you'd like. You can layer it, you cannot. It's whatever your level of, you know, comfort is. And I did kind of explode a bit after the pandemic or as we were emerging from lockdown, I think, as we all were sick of wearing our pyjamas and wanted to go the complete opposite direction.

MK: Cannes has a history of controversy around fashion rules. You know, women must wear heels, and now, apparently, men must wear tuxedos as part of these new dress codes. So, you know, is this just not a continuation of what has been long-standing policies?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: I don't necessarily think that those have been explicit policies. I mean, when there was the controversy about women wearing heels and both Kristen Stewart and Julia Roberts rebelled against that and walked the red carpet barefoot, that was never an explicitly written rule. People were just being allegedly turned away from the red carpet. So I don't think it's really a continuation of rules that have been in some kind of fashion charter somewhere dictating what people should or should not wear to respect the integrity of the festival.

MK: Although French law allows women to go topless on beaches, so some people are thinking, well, if it's okay on the beach of Cannes, why is it not okay on red carpets of Cannes?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: I couldn't agree more. I think it's, you know, there's a great image, and I'm not sure what year it was, but I believe Monica Bellucci, you know, at the Cannes Film Festival next to a nude model who's sunbathing. And I think that's just kind of the antithesis of the freedom of what Cannes should be about. Not an antithesis, sorry, an example of what it can be about. Yeah.

MK: An example, yeah. Is this just a Cannes thing or do other film festivals have strict rules about dress as well?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: To my knowledge, and this wasn't something I researched very deeply for the story, there's nothing quite this explicit and that's caused this much of a ruckus. I think because Cannes is arguably the most prestigious film festival in the world, all eyes are on Cannes. It has fashion sponsors, and that means that there's going to be a lot of explosive fashion on the red carpet. People pay the most attention to it. Like, yes, you have the Venice Film Festival as well where there's great fashion, but I think that Cannes, you know, gets it's quite a bit more attention to that. So I think that's why we're so fixated on the rules that they've come out with.

MK: And yet, some people have welcomed these rules because, in their opinion, the fashion, especially those nearly nude moments, have really put the focus on the clothing and not the films. What do you think about that logic?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: Well, if they really don't want any focus on the clothing, don't accept sponsorship from massive fashion brands and don't accept the press coverage and the prestige the festival gets from that coverage, from, you know, celebrities and models and what they're wearing on the red carpet. You can't have it both ways. You know, either accept the fashion element of all of this and all of the good that it brings the festival as far as exposure, or shut it down and don't have a massive red carpet with tons and tons of photographers and celebrities. Just quietly walk in and see the film and talk about the films.

MK: Tell me about what you've heard from the celebrities themselves, from the people themselves who will be walking that red carpet. How are they feeling? We heard Halle Berry talking about how she had to do a little bit of a costume or an outfit rejig before she went out there because of a long train. What else have you heard about other celebrities and their feelings about this dress code?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: What I've actually heard is that no one cares. Everyone's going to do what they want to do and wear what they what to wear. I mean, oftentimes, these outfits, these gowns, etc., are custom-made months in advance. So when you hear something a day or two before the festival saying there's these new rules, like there's not much you can do. You're not going to completely, you know, have a new gown custom- made in 24 hours. It's a little bit wild to ask someone to do that.

MK: You know, some people listening might think this is not such a big deal. After all, we're talking about celebrities in a big fancy festival red carpet. But what kind of impact do you think this could have beyond the red carpet in Cannes?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: I think it's a bigger conversation about, you know, specifically women, but, you know, largely policing what people are wearing and also about supporting women. There was a controversy with the festival and Harvey Weinstein, obviously, and they made a lot of moves, I believe it was in 2018, to, you know, support women and highlight female directors. And there's a hotline for people to call if they felt like, you know, there was inappropriate behaviour or sexual harassment. And that all just feels a bit false if, or performative, rather, if you're going to then say, oh, watch out, everybody. Like let's clutch our pearls at your slightly sheer gown. So I think that it's sending a message. It's a global platform. People are watching this. And if you're policing women on this platform, you know, it makes it seem more acceptable in other realms of our lives.

MK: I guess I interpret from that the sense that you feel that it was probably men who were imposing these rules. Do we know whether it was women who actually had a voice in bringing in this dress code?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: I asked twice, actually, who actually made these decisions, and if it was a governing body, how many people on the body were, you know, there were women, and I did not get a reply. So at this point, there's no way for me to know, but I'm still trying to dig into it.

MK: What's your gut tell you?

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: My gut tells me that it's probably not a bunch of younger women on this panel, if the panel even exists. But again, I'm just, I don't know anything for certain.

MK: It's a heck of a story that we have uncovered here on The Current this morning. Katharine, thanks so much for your time. We really appreciate this.

KATHARINE ZARRELLA: Thank you.

MK: Katharine Zarrella is a fashion critic, writer, and lecturer at the Parsons School of Design in New York and Central Saint Martins Design College in England. We reached her in New York. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

RICK MERCER: No matter where you live in this country, you can go within a couple of hundred kilometres and explore a new world. I would scale down. Yes, by all means, if you have the resources to go to the Rockies across the country. But if you just have to go in your own neighbourhood, that's great too, and you will have an incredible vacation.

MK: You know that voice. Rick Mercer joined Matt Galloway to unveil the top 10 places in Canada that you, our wonderful listeners, chose as your favourite destinations. If you're thinking about summer travel, stay tuned for The Current's travel bucket list. That's coming your way in just 90 seconds, so don't you even think about going anywhere. I'm Mark Kelley. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

CANADIAN TRAVEL BUCKET LIST

MK: I'm Mark Kelley, and you're listening to The Current. Earlier this month, The Current's O Canada Travel Bucket List was revealed. With Canadians looking to spend their travel dollars here at home, as we were talking about earlier in the program, the guide set out to name the best places to visit in Canada. And we got more than 2000 submissions of locations from coast to coast to coast, and champions made their case on the radio for their spot.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: You'll never feel as close to nature as you will in Bonavista. You are literally surrounded by earth, water, wind and sky, and lots of wind at that.

SPEAKER: We didn't even know about it before we went there. It is the only park in Canada with natural prairie grassland.

SPEAKER: We're nestled on these gorgeous waters of Lake Huron. It's one of those things that you don't understand until you're here. There's just something about this place. The pace of life is so fantastic.

SPEAKER: There’s all kinds of grizzlies, there's a great big elk herd, there's cougars, there's wolves, there’s deer. The feeling that you get when you go into the Rockies is it's a very different place.

SPEAKER: We don't have to go far to find beauty in Atlantic Canada. And when the bucket list came out, I looked to see what was on there that I had already kind of said to myself, where am I going to go? Even going to Ontario from Prince Edward Island, that's not a stretch, and keeping it in Canada has served us really well.

MK: I love it when people are passionate about this great country, and that's just a sampling of some of the people and the places we were able to highlight in this past month, from St. Andrews, New Brunswick, to Manitoulin Island in Ontario, to Waterton Lakes National Park in Alberta. Nearly 50,000 votes later, a final top 10 list emerged. Matt Galloway spoke with special guest Rick Mercer about Canadians' favourite places across this country.

SOUNDCLIP

MATT GALLOWAY: Rick, good morning.

RICK MERCER: Good morning, Matt. I love when you say good morning. I always believe you.

MG: Because it is a good morning. It’s morning, at the very list.

RICK MERCER: Well, thank you, and good morning to you, sir.

MG: You have seen an awful lot of this country, and a lot of the places that were among the finalists are places that you have Gone to. We'll get to the finalists, but what is it that makes travelling in this Canada, in this country, do you think, what makes it unique?

RICK MERCER: Well, I just, I never, ever regretted any of the trips I ever took in the 16 years that I was doing it professionally. I don't know if we're the best country in the world, but we're the best looking. Like it just never stops. And it's always worth the trip. And it’s so large. It's so varied. I mean, a contest like this is so difficult because you're talking about, you know, spectacular places in Newfoundland and Labrador, and then you're talking about the interior of British Columbia. I mean, these are, we're a big country, and it's incredibly diverse geographically. And this is a tough one, coming down, you know, making a top 10 list is a tough ask.

MG: I said 50,000 votes. I mean, one of the things that that speaks to is this moment of national pride. How have you experienced that over the last little bit where people are wrapping themselves in the flag?

RICK MERCER: Well, it's certainly happening, isn't it? I can remember when Jean Chrétien brought in Flag Day, and I can remember doing material about Flag Day. And it happens every year, and I hear about it in the peripheral. But I personally never hung up a flag on Flag Day. And this year, off I went to Canadian Tyre and got my flag and hung it on the house. And I think a lot of people did that. I think, you know, national pride, it's kind of like nobody saw that it was coming, but we all knew it was there. It just, we needed the threat. And once the threat was floated, then we stood up.

MG: So we're going to go through the final 10 destinations, but I want to highlight some of the honourable mentions from the 2000 plus submissions we received. These ones were great destinations, didn't make that top 10. This one comes from Pam Pahl in Halifax, Nova Scotia, who writes, you need to visit the world-famous Gopher Hole Museum in Alberta. It is weirdly fabulous, unique and wholesome, handmade by members of that community. Using donated already dead, stuffed Richardson ground squirrels, the community creates their clothing and backdrops. People from around the world visit the Hamlet of Torrington in order to see the world-famous Gopher Hole Museum. Rick, you must have been to the Gopher Hole Museum.

RICK MERCER: No, but you had me at, makes their clothing.

MG: I like that they're already dead and stuffed.

RICK MERCER: I had an image in my mind, but it wasn't they weren't wearing clothes. That's great. That's fantastic. It's on my list.

MG: This is from Verna Lynne Weeks, who said, we need to go to the Spoon Shanty in Rustico on Prince Edward Island. Verna Lynne Weeks writes, Brendan Peters, the PEI Spoon Guy, will teach you to play the spoons from a heritage lobster shanty in beautiful North Rustico, PEI. Hear fish tales from his family's long history of lobster fishing. And after your spooning lesson, enjoy dinner at the world-famous lobster suppers, or head to the white sand beaches. Rick?

RICK MERCER: Well, I didn't know that playing the spoons was called spooning. I just, see, I like to think I'm an expert on so many things, and now I'm learning.

MG: You learn new things every day.

RICK MERCER: Your spooning lesson in PEI.

MG: Wow, there's no better place. This is from Neil Martin. His submission is that everyone needs to visit the Bell Centre in Montreal, hockey's church. Neil, I feel for you. The Montreal Canadiens, the Habs are out of the playoffs, having lost yesterday, but you want to go to the Bell Centre perhaps next year. There's always next year. Is there a place, Rick, off the beaten track that you think Canadians should make a point of visiting?

RICK MERCER: Well, I'm not privy to the final list, but Churchill, Manitoba.

MG: Oh yeah.

RICK MERCER: Churchill, Manitoba, the polar bear capital of the world. I mean, we all have this idea of polar bears. We've all seen the images of polar bears, but it's one of those things that until you slap your eyes on one, you just really don't know what it's going to be like. And you go to Churchill, and you go out on those polar bear buggies or whatever they're called, and they're everywhere. It's not like, oh, I hope I'm going to see a polar bear. You just see so many of them. It's exquisite. It's well worth the trip.

MG: All right, so we're going to unveil the top 10. Maybe Churchill Manitoba will be on that. Please welcome, if you would, the CBC Radio Drum Corps with the drum roll.

SOUNDCLIP

[drum roll]

MG: Our first destination on The Current's travel guide is Tofino, British Columbia. You love Tofino, Rick.

RICK MERCER: Well, when I was on this program originally and you asked me to mention a few places, I mentioned Tofino because it really truly blew my mind. It was one of those trips where I woke up, I arrived at night, I woke up, looked out, and I was just, you know, my breath was taken away. And I spent time walking on that beach, and it was like, it was Like being in a cathedral. It's just, it's stunningly beautiful. And what I didn't know, because I googled it after I talked to you so passionately about My time there, was of course, it's a huge winter destination because people go and storm watch there and surge watch, which I wasn't aware of. But I can imagine it that it must be exquisite.

MG: Dan Law is the mayor of Tofino, British Columbia. Mr. Mayor, good morning.

DAN LAW: Good morning.

MG: You know how beautiful this place is, but for the rest of the country, are you surprised that it made it to the top 10?

DAN LAW: No. You know, Tofino kind of sells itself, kind of like what Rick said there.

MG: It is remarkable. For people who've never been, just what makes it so special?

DAN LAW: Well, it's, you know, it’s not only, it's opulently beautiful. Most people… That's all I can say. If I go away for any length of time and forget, you know, what it's like, I come back and I'm always shocked and I go, oh my gosh, this place is just gorgeous.

MG: You're originally from Nova Scotia, is that right?

DAN LAW: Yeah, I spent most of my childhood in Nova Scotia, with a bit in Toronto. Shout out to Toronto.

MG: And so why did you end up, you know, putting the flagpole into Tofino? Why is that the place for you?

DAN LAW: Well, my wife and I had a couple little babies, and we were looking for a place to live, and we did a tour of BC. I mean, there's just so many fantastic places in BC, and we couldn't decide where to sort of settle down. And so we talked to each other, so let's go to Tofino to think about it. And we drove into Tofino, and I thought, well, this place is amazing. And that was it really. That was 25 years ago.

RICK MERCER: Dan, can I ask, when I talk about walking on the beach, I walked for a long time. How long is that thing like if I want to go for a walk?

DAN LAW: Well, I mean, there's beaches in Tofino that you could walk for a while, but you're probably thinking of Long Beach at the Pacific Rim National Park, which is long. I mean, it's kilometres, kilometres long. But you can walk this, you know, Tofino is about 10 kilometres long. You can walk all the way out and all the way back on a dedicated, dedicated multi-use path.

MG: And people are there winter and summer.

DAN LAW: Winter and summer. It’s fantastic in the winter and fantastic in the summer. Yeah, it's a special place.

MG: Excellent. All right, Dan, hang around, because the next stop on our top 10 list voted on by almost 50,000 people is somewhere that Rick knows very well, Bonavista, Newfoundland.

RICK MERCER: Aha, Bonavista makes the list.

MG: John Norman is the mayor of Bonavista, Newfoundland. John Norman, good morning to you.

JOHN NORMAN: Good morning to You.

MG: You cannot be surprised that Canadians chose beautiful Bonavista as one of the top 10 destinations in this country.

JOHN NORMAN: No, I'm not overly surprised. We don't offer spooning lessons, but we offer a lot of things.

MG: What is it that makes it, make the pitch. What is it that makes it such an amazing place to visit?

JOHN NORMAN: Well, of course, it's in the song, this land is your land, this land is my land, from Cape Bonavista to Vancouver Island. So we're far off on the other end of the country. We're a unique old place. And we're a rural community in the country that like so many others has had a storied past, a complicated socio-economic situation, pretty much economic collapse when you're talking about the cod moratorium. And now, in recent years, quite a renaissance, a revival happening in the community. So a great place to live, so it is now, has become a great place to visit.

MG: How do you balance the two, making it a great place to live, but also a great place to visit?

JOHN NORMAN: Bonavista has taken a lot of strategic moves over the years, and I've been involved with a number of those. A lot of investments in social enterprise and not-for-profit work in the community, enhancing what we offer recreationally, arts, culture, heritage. This is a community of around 3,500 people, and this community has built heritage. It's landscape, it's built landscape of over a thousand structures that are municipally, provincially or nationally designated. So we're talking about a really unique historic place nestled right in the middle of a UNESCO Global Geopark with phenomenal geology, coastal geomorphology, everything you could want in the mix.

MG: If there was a place, I mean, you love your town, but if there was another place in this country that you had to pick, a spot that you want to visit in Canada, where would it be, John?

JOHN NORMAN: Dawson City.

MG: Dawson City. What is it about, what is it, I mean, I've been, and it's wonderful. Those late, late nights are spectacular. What is it about Dawson that is so intriguing to you?

JOHN NORMAN: I have a background in earth science. Of course, I love earth science, but my passion day to day is built heritage. I've done talks on rural economic development across the country, in lots of towns, with old and unique buildings and landscapes, but I have yet to make it to Dawson City. I really want to see it, feel it, and understand how that isolated community works.

MG: Dan, is there one place for you that you need to get to in this country?

DAN LAW: Well, I was going to say Gros Morne, but now I think maybe it's Bonavista.

RICK MERCER: You can do both. You can absolutely do both.

DAN LAW: Yeah, no, there's a lot of places I want to go. I do want to see the Yukon. I've been right up, you know, to the border of the Yukon, and it's just fabulous all through. I’ve been across Canada. So I've been to a lot of places, but I actually really do want to go to Newfoundland. It's been on my bucket list. So.

MG: Maybe John Norman can help you out there.

DAN LAW: Yeah, that’s right. I was going to say.

MG: It's good to speak…

DAN LAW: I was hoping you would…

MG: Yeah, it could be like a summit or something like that, a mayoral summit in Newfoundland.

DAN LAW: I was hoping he'd say Tofino, then we could maybe switch houses and stuff like that.

MG: We'll see what we can do. The power of radio. It's good to speak with you both, and thank you for championing the places that you love.

DAN LAW: Okay. It's great to be here.

JOHN NORMAN: Thank you.

MG: That’s Dan Law, Mayor of Tofino, British Columbia, John Norman, the Mayor of Bonavista, Newfoundland. Here are the next four spots in our top 10. Again, no particular order because we don't want people to be upset with us. Basin Head Provincial Park in PEI, perhaps spooning lessons there as well. Quebec City in Quebec, Stratford, Ontario, and driving, we heard a lot about road trips, driving from Amherst to MassTown in Nova Scotia along the Bay of Fundy. Rick, any of those pop out to you as places that you love?

RICK MERCER: Well, Quebec City. You could just walk your feet to stumps in Quebec City. It is just so beautiful. And the fact that you're in North America, you really feel transported. You feel like you're in Europe, you're in France. Old Quebec City is just a beautiful, beautiful way to spend some time. And it's so close. It is just so accessible in terms of, well, you feel like you’re in Europe. I mean, it's amazing. Absolutely. Everyone should do that. 100%.

MG: The final four spots in The Current’s Canadian travel bucket list, Gros Morne National Park in Newfoundland, Manitoulin Island in Ontario, St. Andrews in New Brunswick, and this is interesting, with nearly a quarter of all of the votes we received, Cape Breton in Nova Scotia. Are you surprised that people love Cape Bretony the way they do, Rick?

RICK MERCER: Absolutely not. And I'm absolutely not surprised that they worked the phones, because that is, they clearly worked the phones and God loved them. Cape Breton, I talked the last time about doing that drive around Cape Breton. It's incredible. This list, I tell you, this is going to be a very contentious list. Everyone deserves to be on this list. So many people deserve to be on this list that aren't on the list. I mean, once again, we're looking at a contentious election result in Canada. This is, you're going to get mail. You might get 50,000 letters about the 50,000 short list. But Cape Breton Island, and, you know, one of the very first times I went to the mainland as a young man, I got a job on a TV show. I was 17 years old. I was alone in Halifax. I didn't know anyone. And I walked down, and I went to the Cape Breton’s Summertime Review, which is an annual show. They tour and then they move around to Halifax, etc., and it blew my mind. The music, the comedy, the comedy stylings of Bette MacDonald, the funniest woman on earth. So when I think of Cape Breton, I think of natural beauty, but I also think, I just think of the people and the humour that's come out of there, the music that's come out of there, the culture.

MG: There were a couple of spots that just missed the cut by just a few hundred votes. Grasslands National Park in Saskatchewan and Waterton Lakes National Park in Alberta. This is the time of the year, it's the beginning of May, and people might be thinking about where they should travel this summer. And one of the things we've heard already from people is that this list has got people thinking and got people booking. So if you're thinking about booking one of these places, arrive early, as they say, to avoid disappointment. But Rick, what would you say to people who are debating whether to take a trip here in Canada this summer or maybe travel abroad? They're trying to figure out how they're going to spend their time and their money. What's the pitch to stay here?

RICK MERCER: I think they absolutely should travel inside of Canada. And I think sometimes, it's a bit overwhelming. Like as beautiful as Tofino sounds, if you're in Nova Scotia, that's a long trip. And you mightn't have the resources to pull that off. But no matter where you live in this country, you can go within a couple of hundred kilometres and explore a new world. I mean, I am sure there are people in St. John's, where I am right now, listening to the radio and going, you know what, I've never been up to Bonavista. And they could be in Bonavista by three o'clock this afternoon. So that, you know, so I would scale down. Yes, by all means, if you have the resources to go to the Rockies across the country. But if you have to just go in your own neighbourhood, that's great too, and you will have an incredible vacation.

MG: I can't think of anybody better to help us sift through this list than you. You've been very generous in doing this and a lot of fun as well. Rick, thank you.

RICK MERCER: Thank you.

MK: That's Matt Galloway speaking with Rick Mercer about The Current's great Canadian bucket list. I'm going to add one more because I can, because I'm sitting in for Matt and I've got the microphone in front of me. So swimming with the seals on Kellys Beach in New Brunswick, it is something to be experienced. So, and I have travelled a lot in this country. I'm very grateful for that. And on a related note, here's Mike Ford with his take on “I've Been Everywhere.

[Song: “I’ve Been Everywhere” by Mike Ford]

MK: Wow, that'll get your feet moving, won't it? I've been everywhere, indeed. I'm Mark Kelley, and this is The Current. And it's time for us to reach deep into the mailbag. This week on The Current, Matt spoke about the growing use of artificial intelligence for writing and all those prompts that pop up in your email or Google Docs. And many of you responded with emails that we believe were human generated. Our senior producer, Karin Marley, is with me to read some of your thoughts. Good morning, Karin.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Mark. I hope, yes, that these are people's thoughts. It seems like it, for sure. So this first one is from an editor and writer, Michelle Huang. She writes, the process of repeatedly feeding AI increasingly specific prompts and reworking the text until the human is satisfied with the final output is called editing. Editing requires the human to recognize the difference between good and bad writing, a skill that is developed at a sophisticated level by practicing the analogue way of writing for years and years. Using generative AI to produce quality writing is more cumbersome because not only does one need to review and revise the AI's writing, the human must, if they want to be at all credible, also fact check all the text for the hallucinations that AI so frequently perpetuates. The analogy to a calculator is apt. Just because I can push the buttons doesn't mean I know whether the right formulas have been put in. Just because I input a prompt doesn't mean I am capable of assessing the quality of the output or knowing what further prompts to give to make the output better. I actually need to know how to write in order to evaluate the output. So how is it helpful or a time saver if I need to do the critical thinking work anyway?

MK: Deep thoughts. Christopher Cavanagh in Toronto writes, I've been teaching grad and undergrad courses at York University for 25 years, and I'm concerned about the consequences of AI for reading. In courses I have taught, I've definitely detected the use of ChatGPT. It appeared the vast majority of students were feeding their readings into chatbots to produce summaries, and that was new. Sure, Cole's notes summaries are an old practice. But while those are made for book-length works, here we are witnessing an a la carte use on individual articles. What will happen to practice the practice of reading in a world where anyone can push a button for the summary? And this brings me to curiosity. In our hyper competitive profit driven world, students are more interested in equipping themselves to be competitive. Who could blame them for using AI? Not to use it would make one something of a sucker. I'm not sure we can turn that ship around anytime soon, but might not more attention be given to developing students' curiosity to want to know how the world works, or curiosity about themselves and of what they're capable? Could that be an avenue to travel down in this accelerating race towards our techno future?

KARIN MARLEY: So Nasseh Khodaie writes, I use AI extensively for work. The work that I used to do in two months, I can now do in 2 weeks. For my own personal projects, I use generative AI to help me with developing ideas that involve multiple engineering disciplines that are not my forte, such as mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, physics. This has allowed me to build things that would have been next to impossible for me before tools like DeepSeek R1 existed. The transformative nature is similar to what digital cameras did to photography. They made it possible to enjoy photography with less upfront training, less cost, and it allowed people to experiment rapidly and consequently get better faster. I have concerns about AI too, one being how quickly AI is progressing. I fear that we might not be adapting quickly enough. The advent of AI powered tools with advanced automation that can be operated by AI will be disruptive in all levels of society. Think of a future where your life companion is a humanoid robot that can do most things humans do better than most humans. What would this do for a birth rate which is already declining? It may be a positive though, because on the flip side, you may end up having a super nanny.

MK: Super nanny. This is from Ruth Hodder. In answer to the question whether I use AI in my writing, I haven't so far, but I'm about to. I am 68 years old. I spent 11 years of my life writing my memoir. When my brother Philip died in May 2021, I realized that I wanted to tell a story. After several false starts, however, I put that project aside because it just felt like too much. Too much material to sort through, too much work, too many emotions to deal with. Just too much. Recently, however, as I listened to my younger sister describe how she started using ChatGPT to help her write her students' report cards, it dawned on me that I could use some help, the same help, to help me organize the voluminous and eclectic research material on my brother. I see AI as a tool only at this stage in my writing life.

KARIN MARLEY: And finally, Michelle Weger says, I love AI. I am an avid AI user and have been since the moment it became available. It's my go-to for writing better emails, making grocery lists, even designing a new house. I use AI every day, multiple times a day. It makes life so much easier and saves my brain power for the more important tasks that only a human can do.

MK: Karin, thank you.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MK: Merci. If you want to reach us to comment on what you hear on this program, our email is thecurrent@cbc.ca. And folks, we love to hear from you, and we may even read your email or letter on the air as well. All right, deep breath. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. And for the long weekend, we're going to leave you with a Canadian classic. I love this song. Here's Blue Rodeo's “5 Days in May”, performed live at Massey Hall. I'm Mark Kelley, sitting in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Have a great long weekend. Whatever you do, stay safe, and we will talk to you Monday. Talk then.

[Song: “5 Days in May” by Blue Rodeo]

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