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The Current Transcript for May 15, 2025

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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DONALD TRUMP: The sanctions were brutal and crippling and served as an important, really an important function nevertheless at the time, but now it's their time to shine. It's their time to shine. We're taking them all off.

MATT GALLOWAY: The fall of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad took much of the world by surprise. The embrace this week of the new Syrian leader by US President Donald Trump also seemed to come out of nowhere. In 30 minutes, what lifting crippling sanctions on Syria will mean for that country's future and for Syrians who fled and are longing to return home. Also this morning, he was a music icon who helped launch hip-hop into the mainstream. Now Sean Combs, aka Puff Daddy, aka Diddy, could face life in prison, accused of sex trafficking and racketeering in a case laced with allegations of shocking violence and abuse. Coming up, the latest from the trial and the wild scenes in and out of the courtroom. Plus.

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FRANK HUYNH: It's a place where there's so many people, right? And then you kind of look around and you're seeing all these people have fun out and about. And then you might look at yourself and think, why isn't that me?

MG: Keep your friends close. Unfortunately, in an era of social media and working from home, making new friends as an adult can be tricky. In an hour, how young adults are engineering ways to meet new people in real life, from dinner with strangers to a group run in a park. But we begin in Southwestern Ontario, where measles cases have exploded and doctors are trying to figure out how to communicate with the community at the heart of the outbreak. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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MEASLES

Guests: James Chaarani, Lynora Saxinger

MG: It was considered eliminated in Canada in 1998, but now, measles is spreading across this country at an alarming rate.

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SPEAKER: It was time to be getting his vaccinations, and then seeing that there's been measles cases in the area, we just, yeah, wanted to get it done for him.

MG: That's one worried mom in southwestern Ontario who got her son vaccinated against measles recently. At least seven provinces have measles cases, but the worst outbreaks are in Alberta and Ontario, with more than 1400 cases reported in Ontario alone since October. Last month, the state of New York issued a travel advisory for people coming to Ontario, warning that measles is only a car ride away. Dr. Kieran Moore is Ontario's Chief Medical Officer of Health. He says it's been a challenge getting vaccination rates up.

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KIERAN MOORE: It's not been easy because, I mean, people are busy, they have many priorities. But I hope we can raise the awareness, have immunization be prioritized. It's a global phenomenon right now. So anytime you're travelling outside of Canada, the risk is there. We want to make sure we don't bring measles back, and we want to ensure that we can get this under control in the southwest of Ontario.

MG: The measles cases in Ontario are concentrated in the southwest part of that province in the Mennonite community where vaccination rates are low. The Current's James Chaarani took a trip through the region to talk to people in the community about the outbreak, and he’s with me in studio. James, good morning.

JAMES CHAARANI: Hey Matt, good Morning.

MG: So describe where you went.

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah. So I drove nearly 200 kilometres southwest of Toronto towards a town called Aylmer. A good part of the trip was through country roads, past forests and farm fields, some with Mennonites in traditional garb working the land. Yeah, there were tractors driving down the road. There were signs warning to watch out for horse and buggies. This is really getting into the heart of Mennonite country, and it's ground zero of the measles outbreak in Ontario.

MG: So when you were in that community, who did you talk to?

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah, just to visualize a bit, Aylmer is a pretty tiny place. There's less than 8000 people there. There's shops and restaurants that kind of pop up out of nowhere along the country roads. And I stopped at this one place called Mennomex, a Mexican Mennonite grocer and restaurant. And yeah, I actually didn't realize this, but there are some Mennonites from Mexico in the area, and there's a bit of a presence there as you're driving around. And I spoke to this one woman, Nancy Thiessen, who was working the counter there. It turns out that she's actually been affected by the outbreak. Her granddaughter is unvaccinated and recently had measles.

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NANCY: Yeah, she had it for I think about two weeks, and she looked kind of rough. They went to the hospital to check it out just to see if they did the right thing, and they tell them they did, they did the right thing. So I think it just took a couple of weeks until she was over it, but then she was fine. Yeah, it was a bit scary. Yeah.

JAMES CHAARANI: And are there other grandkids in the family?

NANCY: Yeah, there are more grandkids.

JAMES CHAARANI: And is there anything, like are you worried about, you know, the other grandkids and are they vaccinated at all?

NANCY: No, they're not vaccinated. I'm not really worried about it.

JAMES CHAARANI: Just knowing that it is sort of a hot spot for measles, does that make you feel any way one way or another?

NANCY: I don't think so because, you know, I come from Mexico, and I know that when I was a child, there were measles. I'm personally, I'm not scared.

JAMES CHAARANI: That's not an uncommon sentiment there. Vaccination rates are low in the community. But I spoke to experts on Mennonite theology, and they said that there really is nothing in the religion itself that bans vaccination. This is more about a high level of distrust of the medical system and of the government.

MG: So when you were there, how open were people in talking to you and speaking about what's going on there?

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah, I did want to talk to more people about this, but it wasn't always easy. Some were pretty forthcoming, as you heard with Nancy, but others seem pretty wary of me. A pastor at a religious school in Aylmer, which has reportedly closed down because of worries around measles, was supposed to talk to me, but he cancelled that morning. And a Mennonite woman at another Mexican Mennonite shop started telling me about a measles case in her family, but she abruptly stopped talking and walked away.

MG: So there were some people, though, who were willing to talk to you, right?

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah. So across the street from the shop, there were these two women in bonnets who were standing outside of their home. And I kind of approached them, and they waved me to come. And, you know, they were very inviting and were very happy to talk, but they weren't comfortable using their names. And I asked one of them what they thought about the measles outbreak.

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SPEAKER: I don't bother to feel about it. It's normal, it's real, it’s a cruel human nature. It's the way life is supposed to revolve. It's, it’s the way we grew up. It's just the way it's supposed to be.

JAMES CHAARANI: Do you speak some German?

SPEAKER: Yeah.

JAMES CHAARANI: I know among some German people, there's a distrust in the government, distrust in like vaccines. Is that how you feel?

SPEAKER: Oh, believe me, that's an anger-speaking one too.

JAMES CHAARANI: Right.

SPEAKER: Distrust in the government, howdy.

JAMES CHAARANI: And so when it comes to things like, you know, vaccinations, are people around here, are they feeling like that's something that they should do in light of the measles?

SPEAKER: No, they know better. There's nothing good in those vaccines these days. Once upon a time when, before I was thought of, maybe there was some protection agent in them. Nothing in there is going to do you any good at all.

MG: What else do you learn from her about what she thinks of the healthcare system? I mean, you get a sense from that.

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah, I mean, she was very suspicious, as you heard, of modern medicine. We were standing by this small garden, and I was really curious about how she deals with illness in light of what she said.

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JAMES CHAARANI: When it comes to health, like when it comes to accessing health, like if you get sick, what do you, like how does, what does that look like?

SPEAKER: We pick those yellow things and the purple things. They do more for us than anything ever could.

JAMES CHAARANI: What are these yellow things and purple?

SPEAKER: Dandelion, darling.

JAMES CHAARANI: I know dandelions, but I don't know the purple things.

SPEAKER: Violets.

JAMES CHAARANI: OK. And so violet, you actually…

SPEAKER: Beautiful medicine. Oh gosh, yeah. And this one here, it's a strawberry. You can use the leaves as well, okay? See there, that one's blooming. That's strawberry.

JAMES CHAARANI: Mm hmm. So you feel that it's better to go for more natural.

SPEAKER: Absolutely. Not better, it is the best.

JAMES CHAARANI: Right.

SPEAKER: Oh yeah.

JAMES CHAARANI: Right.

SPEAKER: Oh yeah.

JAMES CHAARANI: Do you have kids and grandkids?

SPEAKER: No.

JAMES CHAARANI: No. And do you have nieces or nephews or anything like that?

SPEAKER: Oh yeah.

JAMES CHAARANI: And in terms of vaccinations for them, is that…

SPEAKER: Not a requirement. Just the same as for us. There's more dirt in there than there is of any well-being. And grandma grew up without them, and so can we.

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah, and I just want to promise you that I actually do know what a dandelion is.

MG: That's good to know. What is the public health system in this area doing to address claims like this, this belief that dandelions and violets and strawberries are just as good for you as proven medical science?

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah, I spoke to David Aoki, who is the Chief Nursing Officer in Waterloo region. That region has the largest and most diverse population of Mennonite people in all of Canada, some of whom speak low German. David does outreach within the community around measles. He told me that COVID created this sort of divide between the local Mennonites and public health.

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DAVID AOKI: We will work with them in their language. So we use translators, interpreters. We don't want to break a relationship over one issue. So we try to build the trust over time, provide good information. But a lot of, when I've talked about COVID, things like shutdowns, things like isolation away from churches and things like that, that didn't help build that trust. And so we're in a situation now, three or four years later, where we're trying to rebuild some of those relationships that we were working on before COVID. There was already a little bit of tension between government and some populations. With our broader population, we can put something out in minutes on our website and get social media out, and the message gets distributed fairly well. With this group, we're talking over landlines with people and we're using, in some cases, phone chains where one person will call one person. So the message just takes longer to get out. It still gets out.

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah, so you heard him say that they don't want to break a relationship over one issue. And he says it's not only about convincing them to get vaccinated, it's about rebuilding trust too and getting them appropriate healthcare.

MG: What about people outside of that Mennonite community?

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah, so public health officials say the measles outbreak in southwestern Ontario is disproportionately impacting the Mennonite and Amish communities. But of course, measles is contagious.

MG: It doesn't stop at the community.

JAMES CHAARANI: Exactly. Yeah, it's contagious. Anybody can get it if they're not vaccinated or get a mild case if they are. I did stop at this one feed and seed shop in Tillsonburg off the side of the road. The owner, Holly Silverthorne, she's worried.

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HOLLY SILVERTHORNE: I feel very unsettled that a lot of people in our area are getting measles right now because it is a treatable, preventable illness that, you know, we could have prevented all around. You know, you want to try to avoid hospitals or public places where people might be exposed to it and, you know, it's highly contagious. You can catch it really easy. So also, my son, he works as a butcher and had told me that one of his friends’ butcher shops had to be shut down because everybody there had measles. So the people that I hear that are having it were never vaccinated, don't know the benefits of being vaccinated. People like my age, which are 40 to 50, It was mandatory that they got vaccinated to be in school and everything. I did it with my own children, and I guess that you're supposed to also get boosters, which I didn't know.

JAMES CHAARANI: Yeah, and David Aoki from Waterloo Region Public Health says that they keep seeing more and more cases locally. The thing he really wanted to underline though, and I think this is really important as well, was his concern around stigmatizing the Mennonite community because of all of this. He says some Mennonites are vaccinated, and the stigma will just make things worse. Finger pointing could cause them to retreat, as he put it, and pull away even further from public health. And obviously, that's a huge problem. And unfortunately for now, he doesn't think the outbreak has stabilized, and he expects cases to keep rising.

MG: James, thanks very much for this.

JAMES CHAARANI: Thank you.

MG: James Chaarani is a producer here at The Current. In a statement, a spokesperson for Ontario's Minister of Health says the province has met with the Mennonite Central Community for feedback on how to communicate with that community, adding that local public health units have opened community immunization clinics in parts of Ontario where cases of measles are high. Alberta is also seeing a surge in measles numbers. There have been nearly 400 cases in that province, and that province is actually seeing the largest per capita growth in cases. Dr. Lynora Saxinger is an infectious disease specialist at the University of Alberta. She's in Edmonton. Doctor, good morning to you.

LYNORA SAXINGER: Good morning to you.

MG: Ontario, as we heard, is seeing measles cases mostly concentrated in one community. I want to talk about Alberta, but did you want to pick up on what we just heard from those people in that community, in the Mennonite community, saying that they aren't scared, they're not worried, they distrust the government and public health system, and that they know better, that they feel that vaccines aren't effective and that they are relying on things like dandelions and violets.

LYNORA SAXINGER: You know, as I was listening to the second lady, I was thinking, if I grew up in a community with her, I might not be vaccinated either, because she was pretty compelling. But I think we're facing a very similar set of, I mean, and there's going to be a range, but a similar set of attitudes in pockets and communities across Alberta. And when we look at the distribution of cases, the cases are mainly right now in our south zone, which does have higher, a higher population of Mennonite communities. And then there's a smattering in some other, often in smaller communities in the North Zone as well, with occasional cases popping up in larger centres, but they don't tend to spread as much in larger centres because we have higher vaccination rates. Like our vaccination rates in Calgary and Edmonton are really very robust comparatively. So it probably is going very much a similar way as Ontario, which is a big concern.

MG: How do you reach people who are distrustful of politicians and of doctors and convince them that vaccines are safe and effective and are the way to slow and stop this outbreak?

LYNORA SAXINGER: I mean, some of the approaches are based on things that we have worked on in anti-vaccine studies for some time and, you know, the appeal to nature and things like that. There's approaches, but I think the bigger thing is both the trust and the access to people and, you know, trying to avoid stigmatizing them, which was raised there too, because this is not a phenomenon to any specific group. It's just any close-knit group where people share views very strongly, and that view includes not getting vaccinated. That group is at risk of higher rates. And it's happened in other kind of religious and cultural communities. And when you look at what has worked, I was reading about some outbreaks that have occurred in Israel and other places. You really do end up having to work very closely with community leadership, because if you can get a local, I guess you'd say religious influencer on board, that can make things go much better. And I think it can be quite a difficult process because there's a lot of self-reinforcing beliefs in some groups.

MG: The danger is that measles spreads like wildfire. And it's not, as we said, it's not going to be contained within a community. A community's borders aren't solid and firm. People move in and out of those community spaces. And of the hundred people who've been hospitalized in Ontario, 75 have been children. How serious, just remind us how serious measles can be.

LYNORA SAXINGER: Oh, measles can be brutal. I mean, I think people who grew up when measles was circulating widely, like in the 50s and 60s, I mean, they survived it and they're immune now. But a lot of people don't, and they can have long lasting consequences as well. And so the, you know, usually quoted death rate that you'd see in the 1950s would be about one in 1000 cases. And then along with that, a fairly high number of kids, like more like 10 to 20%, might end up with ear infections, pneumonias. And these are not necessarily trivial infections on top of that. There can be late consequences. And, you know, even adults who get it, there's a not insignificant rate of hospitalization from it. And so it is a serious whole body viral illness that can affect every organ system. And it's miserable at the best and deadly at the worst.

MG: We got a statement from the office of Alberta's minister of health saying that that government has taken, in its words, swift and proactive measures, ramping up additional measles clinics, extending hours at existing ones, launching a social media campaign. They say they're seeing results as well. Between mid-March and the end of April, there was an increase of nearly 68% in measles vaccinations administered compared to the same period last year. Is your sense that that is enough to nip this in the bud?

LYNORA SAXINGER: I would say that the risk is that those numbers are a lot of the worried well. You're going to be seeing people who've had one dose who want their second dose. You're going to see people who just kind of fell off track with childhood vaccinations during the pandemic.

MG: That you're not reaching the people who are already distrustful and not getting the vaccine.

LYNORA SAXINGER: Well, they're not on social media. And so that's a lot of kind of shoe leather public health work where you really have to go out and interact with communities. And I think that that is actually really, really hard. And it needs a lot of resources, and it needs a lot of centralized support. And I honestly don't know what's happening in that regard. I have no idea.

MG: What's going on more broadly from your perspective? I mean, how well are public health officials in Alberta dealing with this?

LYNORA SAXINGER: It's been a much quieter campaign than some like example campaigns you might see in the past or even during COVID. And so there's a lot less visibility, at least, to, you know, like example, even to me, I can't, don't really have access to the data as I used to. There, I think, has been up until recently not as much visibility of, you know, acknowledging the problem as you might have seen in the past and as you might see in Ontario. But I think that, you know, at some point, a threshold was reached where it did become a more obvious priority, and we're seeing, you know, some more visibility of this as an issue. And hopefully, that will help inject resources as needed and support to get out there. Because, you know, if you look at the experience in the early 2000s when a lot of today's doctors trained, there was many years where there was less than 10 cases a year in the entire country. And right now, we're at 1500 cases, and that's, you know, 10 times higher than last year already. And so there is kind of a precedent here that this can continue to smoulder along for quite a long time.

MG: We’re almost out of time. Can I ask you, you mentioned COVID. How has the pandemic changed this conversation around vaccinations?

LYNORA SAXINGER: Oh, I think that it really did accelerate anti-vaccine sentiment and elevated conspiracy thinking. It reduced trust. And any community where those things have been very prevalent are communities that are going to be at some higher risk because those things all really travel with anti-vaccination sentiment, and engaging with communities I think will be more difficult. So, you know, I think it's had a profound effect, and it's been a major setback in terms of, you know, public health interacting with communities across Canada, but lots of places in Alberta.

MG: Do you expect cases to rise, continue to rise in the coming weeks and months?

LYNORA SAXINGER: I do think it's likely to smoulder along in under-vaccinated areas especially, and the more that happens, the more there's spillover that affects vaccinated people as well. You know, and I think we're going to be testing and really, you know, accessing the unvaccinated and under-immunized people with this because exposure is extremely likely, like 90% likely to result in disease. And so I don't think it’s going to go away soon, unless there's a lot brought to bear.

MG: We'll leave it there. Lynora, thank you very much.

LYNORA SAXINGER: Thanks for having me.

MG: Dr. Lynora Saxinger is an infectious diseases specialist at the University of Alberta. She was in Edmonton. Your CBC news is coming up next, and then…

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DONALD TRUMP: I will be ordering the cessation of sanctions against Syria in order to give them a chance at greatness.

[cheers]

MG: It was a big surprise announcement on Tuesday, President Donald Trump pledging to lift US sanctions on Syria. It was greeted with a standing ovation. Comes more than 45 years after sanctions were first put in place and just under six months after the fall of the Assad regime. Coming up in six minutes, we'll talk about what this could mean for Syrians at home and abroad. There are many in the diaspora, including here in Canada, who are watching this and wondering whether this is the time for them to think about going back to Syria. We’ll continue that conversation coming up after the news. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current. Stay with us.

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SANCTIONS AND SYRIA

Guests: Noura Aljizawi, Delaney Simon

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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[singing, clapping, drumming]

MG: That's the sound of jubilation in the streets of Homs and Damascus after US President Donald Trump announced plans to lift that country's sanctions on Syria, sanctions that had targeted the Assad regime, but caught regular Syrians in their crosshairs. For decades, these sanctions have frozen the Syrian banking system and crippled the economy of that nation. This week's announcement from the American president was unexpected, could mark a major step toward a better future for that country. Noura Aljizawi is a Syrian activist, former political prisoner under Bashar al-Assad. She is now a senior researcher at the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. Noura, good morning.

NOURA ALJIZAWI: Good morning.

MG: It's good to talk to you again. What was your reaction when you heard this news, I think a lot of people were surprised, that Donald Trump was going to remove these sanctions?

NOURA ALJIZAWI: Yeah, unbelievable. You know, in the beginning, we were hearing that President Trump is considering lifting the sanctions, and we were just debating between our friends and here and there. But then when the announcement, the official announcement came up, like it was unbelievable. People in Syria immediately went to street to celebrate. And I feel like since December 8th, people were not that much celebrating as that night. So, and like I was talking to my friends back home, and they were saying like, yeah, people are just greeting each other in the streets and celebrating together. So it was such a great time for everyone, I believe. I know that there's a lot of questions to be asked, but at least it's, we can say that it's a huge transformative moment for Syrians.

MG: The last time you and I spoke, you were considering going back to Syria for the first time since you left in 2013. You hadn't gone yet, but you have gone now, right?

NOURA ALJIZAWI: Yeah, I did. I returned last month.

MG: What was it like?

NOURA ALJIZAWI: Wow, it was very emotional. It was shocking. I was very stressed before leaving. I changed. Everybody I was planning to see, including my dad, I know that they were changed, like whether ageing or changing like in terms of our thoughts, our, like a lot of things, you know, in details. I left Syria alone. I was a young woman and returning to the country with the family. It was also like something else to reintroduce myself to the country and to my friends and family. So. But yeah, the moment we arrived to the borders, it was just magical moment. And I felt that, yeah, now, like it's reshaping my identity.

MG: What do you mean?

NOURA ALJIZAWI: You know, like when I left the country, I escaped. I crossed the borders to Turkey illegally. My trip to Turkey took around like approximately a month because we were just taking the very hard roads in the villages and crossing rivers in the, like in the middle of winter just because Assad militias were going after me. And yeah, like since then, since 2013, I was having these, like it was such a scar in my soul that I'm forcibly displaced. I didn't choose to leave the country, but it was the only choice to stay alive. After the detention, after how the Assad regime went after my family, and it was impossible to stay in the country. So this first, like this sense of exile, and you feel like, yeah, on holidays, people, your friends here, people can go home, can plan to visit their families, can just like spend holidays with family, and they can plan for their trips. Whereas like there was always something tough inside me deep down, and I believe many Syrian in exile and many people who are forcibly displaced from their countries can relate to this. The moment that I arrived in the country, I crossed the borders, I stamped my passport. I needed proof that Assad is no longer there and I can return to the country without fear. And like then, I'm no longer a forcibly displaced person. I have a choice now. And yeah, I felt just empowered, very happy, very emotionally fulfilled. But, you know, the other side of the, of that visit, it was heartbreaking.

MG: Just because of what the country has gone through. And that's what, I mean, you talk about this being a transformational moment. One of the things that people are hoping for is that with the easing or the lifting of the sanctions, that the country will be able to rebuild itself. What will this mean for people on the ground, do you think?

NOURA ALJIZAWI: I would say like the sanctions and the war was really affecting every single aspect from their lives. It's from the water to electricity. I kept telling my friends about how hard it is to keep navigating the electricity that would probably come for two hours per day, and the water that probably would show up, would come for one day or two days per week. Just thinking about the laundry, how the family is going to arrange the shower schedule and all of these teeny tiny details and people's life. As Syrians, before the war, we used to afford this. Like everything was available. But that was really strange. And seeing how everything in the country is really destroyed, not only in terms of the housing, we know that the areas were affected by the conflict where the bombardment of Assad or the oppressions as well as the direct attacks on besieged areas. We know. I'm aware of the destruction. But when it comes also to the buildings, just seeing how many children are out of school just because their schools are destroyed or they're occupied to host IDPs, it's unbelievable. Like all the government buildings are very, very old. I was shocked when I drove to Damascus. Like it’s the capital. How Assad, like how much this person hated Syria to make the capital this way. It was such an old, destroyed, very bad-looking city. And I felt so, like yeah, it was such heartbreaking.

MG: Where do you think the focus should be concentrated to ensure that, I mean, in the early moments to ensure that Syria, but also the people who are there, are set up to succeed, that there is the future that people are promising? Where should the emphasis be right now?

NOURA ALJIZAWI: Actually, on every single sector. Probably people usually think that we need to focus on the essential needs like humanitarian aid and rebuilding the infrastructure, the critical infrastructure as well. But just following this, doing my research on the disinformation and information warfare, for example, and being a digital rights activist and scholar, it was like unbelievable how people are, we are in 2025 and people mostly don't have good connectivity to the internet, people, victims, and they are very much vulnerable to disinformation. And because of the weapons, like we have so many people, even including civilians, they have weapons in their homes. So any piece of disinformation can really lead to a new conflict, new clashes, and we’re witnessing this here and there.

MG: But we heard the sound of people celebrating on the streets. Part of that is about a generation, like yourself, has just grown up under this umbrella. What is the promise for that younger generation if these sanctions truly are lifted and the country is able to see that moment?

NOURA ALJIZAWI: It's a huge promise. You know, for years, many young men didn't have a job except for like, the only sector was very well funded by so many regional and international actors was to fight. So it's going to create alternative choice, giving these young men second choice and second chance to choose whether they're going to like become part of the security agencies or police or even like go to, decide to continue with the military under the ministry, or they can find alternatives to seek employment, to continue their lives, to rebuild the life that was destroyed for more than a decade.

MG: I have to let you go, but just very briefly, and this is a question that I asked you before when we spoke. Now that things have changed, would you consider going back to be part of that rebuild?

NOURA ALJIZAWI: I would always consider keep going back and forth. And this is my message to Canada, that I wish Canada would follow the United States and the UK, the allies, to empower us as Canadians to, like to do something for this country and to help Syrian people to rebuild their lives, not only building the buildings or the houses, but we need also to work on rebuilding the humans. And I believe this is a good opportunity to call on our government to empower us as Canadians to contribute to this.

MG: It's good to speak with you again. Thank you very much.

NOURA ALJIZAWI: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Noura Aljizawi is a Syrian activist, former political prisoner under Bashar al-Assad. She is now a senior researcher at the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. Delaney Simon is a senior analyst with the Crisis Group. She's been following the effects of Syrian sanctions over the years. Delaney, good morning to you.

DELANEY SIMON: Good morning.

MG: When you and I spoke in December, you said leaving severe sanctions on Syria would be like pulling the rug out from that country as it tries to stand. You heard from Noura. We heard from the people who were celebrating in the streets as Donald Trump announces the plan to ease or wipe away these sanctions. What was your reaction to that? Were you surprised?

DELANEY SIMON: Matt, I am frankly shocked and delighted to hear that Trump, to hear that President Trump is planning on ending sanctions on Syria. I mean, for him to say, it seems pretty much categorically, that he will end sanctions on Syria to give Syria a chance at greatness, that's, to be honest, unprecedented in US sanctions history. If he makes good on his promise and unconditionally lifts sanctions on Syria, I think it's fair to say that he'll be the first president to do so, at least on a state that's so heavily sanctioned as Syria is.

MG: What is your sense as to why he is doing this now? That's why, I mean, so many people were taken by surprise when this announcement came.

DELANEY SIMON: Yeah, and I was taken by surprise too, because the signals that we had gotten from members of his administration were that folks around the president were very sceptical about sanctions lifting, very sceptical of outreach to the Syrian interim president al-Sharaa. And so it is surprising. There have been indications that the president was influenced by his contacts with the region by President Erdogan of Turkey, by Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia. And it seems that the regional voices and the leaders in the region influenced him more than potentially members of his own team who work on the Middle East.

MG: Noura talked about how sanctions impacted every aspect of life in Syria. From your perspective, how did they change the lives of citizens?

DELANEY SIMON: You know, I've been looking into for years the extent to which sanctions crippled economic growth, crippled any efforts to rebuild the country after years of war, but also crippled the ability of humanitarian organizations to deliver aid. It became incredibly difficult for non-governmental organizations and other charities to give food to people in Syria who were suffering from food insecurity, to bring in medical supplies and equipment, to work on major infrastructure projects after they'd been damaged by earthquake and war. And this is humanitarian aid that actually sanctions permitted because of various licences. And yet, the enormous sort of near embargo that persisted on Syria made the fact of bringing supplies and services into the country extremely difficult.

MG: And so how quickly could things change? I mean, it's interesting. Donald Trump said that he was meeting with the interim president. He called him a tough guy with a very strong past. This is somebody who until December had a $10 million bounty on his head. He was a former leader of a branch of Al-Qaeda. Donald Trump has made this about face. If he sticks to this, how quickly would change happen in Syria?

DELANEY SIMON: That's the million dollar question, because actually, it's not that easy to lift US sanctions on Syria. What would it take? First of all, the Trump administration would have to unwind dozens of different restrictions that have been put in place on Syria since 1979. There would have to be action from the State Department, from the Department of Treasury, from the Department of Commerce, from the White House, also from Congress. So we need both executive and legislative action. And even if they achieve the full lifting in a bureaucratic sense, in practice, sanctions relief might not come even if it's been delivered on paper, because the private sector may be afraid to engage in a Syria that's formally sanctioned, that continues to be perceived as risky, indeed a country that's run by individuals who used to be linked with al-Qaeda. And so I absolutely share in the jubilation of Syrians and others after this announcement, but I have to caution, it's really not very straightforward. Other cases of sanctions lifting have taken three, four, five, six, seven, eight years. And then the hopes of the people haven't been met because sanctions have been lifted, but economic relief hasn't come. So if the Trump administration wants to make good on this promise, it has a very tough road ahead.

MG: Does that change if the world moves in concert? I mean, there are countries like Canada that still have sanctions on Syria. The head of foreign policy for the European Union proposed this morning, further loosening European sanctions on Syria to allow for funding of ministries in areas of reconstruction and migration. So if the word moves as one, does that accelerate the timeline?

DELANEY SIMON: It could. US sanctions have been the real big sticking point. The Europeans relaxed their restrictions some months ago. Canada relaxed them to a certain extent, although still has some pretty heavy restrictions in place. The UN continues to sanction the group that the current Syrian president was part of, HDS. And so the whole world will need to move if Syria's really going to emerge from being a sanctioned state, but the US is the biggest player in this game. And so the US doing it will really make a huge difference, in part because of the US's influence in the global financial sector. Most transactions globally have to go through US banks. And so if US banks are able to do business in Syria, this is, I can't over, I can’t overemphasize how important this development is.

MG: What would a more stable Syria, a Syria that is not sanctioned and is recognized and is dealt with by the rest of the world, what would that mean for the region, do you think?

DELANEY SIMON: It's an enormous opportunity for the region. It could mean stability on several countries' borders. It could mean increased trade and business. You can imagine a more stable and prosperous Syria with connections to Saudi Arabia, to Qatar. There would be a huge influence on the neighbouring country of Lebanon, which has hosted Syrian refugees for over a decade now. It could be a massive boon for prosperity in the region. I mean, this is not a silver bullet though. And if sanctions are lifted, we'll still also have to have to grapple with a tremendous amount of economic problems and also stability issues in Syria that once the spotlight on sanctions is no longer there, other issues will clearly come to the fore.

MG: Donald Trump made this announcement while he was in Saudi Arabia. This is part of his first international trip. He's in Saudi and other Gulf nations. What do you take from that?

DELANEY SIMON: Well, it's really interesting to see that Trump's first trip was to Saudi Arabia. It was also the first trip in his first term. It's a clear deviation from the path of most US presidents in the past. Trips have been to Europe, the UK, to Israel, Canada, to Mexico. And so Trump is looking at less of a traditional US ally. He clearly has a deep affinity for the Gulf. But I think, I think it signals a more transactional bend, a look away from traditional US interests and a sort of realignment of US foreign policy as we've known it.

MG: This trip does not include a stop in Israel, and there is reporting that is showing that the administration has not been coordinating with Israel when it comes to negotiations with different actors in the region. There was the deal, apparently, that was done directly with Hamas to release the last American hostage held by Hamas. What do you make of that?

DELANEY SIMON: Yeah, it's very interesting to watch. I mean, we can't forget that Bibi Netanyahu came to the White House already to meet Trump. But absolutely, in the past few weeks and months, we've seen a sort of break to a certain degree between the Trump administration and Israel. As you said, there were negotiations directly between the US and Hamas. Also, the United States made a deal with the Houthis in Yemen that didn't include Israel. And I think this recent outreach to Syria is also making the Israelis very nervous. I think it may suggest that the Trump administration is disappointing those in Israel who are really looking forward to a president who they thought would have their core interests at heart and at the centre of US foreign policymaking. But I will say I found it very notable that in Trump's message to al-Sharaa, that's the president of Syria, when they met, he included some asks that were related to Israeli security, namely asking al-Sharaa if Syria would join the Abraham Accords and also some commitments related to Palestinian terrorism. So, I mean, Israel is still, you know, top of mind in a lot of ways, but certainly not the priority that many Israelis hoped it would be.

MG: Can I just, before I let you go, just ask how you think Trump's language and the rhetoric that he's using is landing in the region? He's talking about Iran, saying, I want them to have a wonderful country and make a lot of money. Of Syria, he says, they deserve a chance at greatness. As you understand it, how is that landing in the region?

DELANEY SIMON: I think it's landing enormously well. And I was particularly struck by the speech that the president gave in Saudi Arabia where he said, nation builders have wrecked far more nations than they built. Too many American presidents of the past have said that it's our job to look into the souls of foreign leaders.

MG: There was like a standing ovation after that.

DELANEY SIMON: Absolutely. And this is, I mean, this is President Trump essentially excruciating his Republican predecessors and their approach to foreign policy. And so this is a real shift, a real shift in terms of rhetoric, a real shift in the Republican Party and a shift for President Trump. But, you know, it remains to be seen practically what will happen with US foreign policy. It's really early days, so I'll be watching this space eagerly.

MG: And why he's doing this, that's the big question as well. What is at the heart of what he's trying to say?

DELANEY SIMON: I wish I could tell you. I don't know, but I have to say I'm really delighted to see the Syria sanctions announcement. And I can only hope that his words on this account will be matched with actions because actions will mean everything. Words are a lot, but I'll be hoping that he really follows through and does the big bureaucratic and political lift that's required to free Syria of this horrible economic chokehold that it needs to emerge from to rebuild.

MG: Really good to talk to you again. Delaney, thank you.

DELANEY SIMON: It's a pleasure. Thank you.

MG: Delaney Simon is a senior analyst with the Crisis Group. She is in Rome.

[Song: “Marhaba Ahlen” by Kazdoura]

MG: That's Kazdoura. The singer of that group, Leen Hamo, is from Syria. The band is based in Toronto. That's a tune called “Marhaba Ahlen.” Coming up after your regional update, we're going to talk about making new friends. As an adult, it's hard. There are strategies that can be put into place to help you with that. Some young adults are working to try to bring strangers together to create connections. Not romantic connections, just friends. We'll tell you more about how they're doing that and why it's worth putting yourself out, it's a risk, but putting yourself out to meet somebody new. That's coming up in 90 seconds here on The Current. Stay with us.

[song fades up and out]

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DIDDY TRIAL

Guest: Jack Queen

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. It is day four of one of the most high profile trials in the United States. Hip-hop mogul Sean Diddy Combs is charged with sex trafficking and racketeering conspiracy. He's known as Puff Daddy, P Diddy. He helped bring hip-hop to the mainstream through music and fashion and videos. He has pleaded not guilty to these charges. Jack Queen is a legal correspondent for Reuters who's covering the trial. He's been in the courtroom every day this week. He joins us now from New York City. And a warning, this story deals with details of sexual assault. Jack, good morning.

JACK QUEEN: Good morning. How’re you doing?

MG: I'm well, thanks. I gave kind of the thumbnail sketch there. For people who don't know, just remind us of who Diddy is and the scale of his influence and celebrity before these charges arrived.

JACK QUEEN: Well, it was enormous. I mean, as you mentioned, he was a person who really brought hip-hop into the mainstream of US culture and world culture. He discovered some iconic artists, including the notorious B.I.G., who he signed to his record label, Bad Boy Records. Mary J. Blige was also in there, along with a half dozen other really iconic artists. And, you know, he was also known as sort of a tastemaker, you know, a fashion and liquor impresario who had, who threw these star-studded parties that were, you know, for many years, the hottest ticket in town for celebrities and the like, attended by A-listers and all of these things. So it made him a really powerful figure in both the industry and in the culture.

MG: And so what exactly is Sean Combs charged with?

JACK QUEEN: So he's charged with racketeering, sex trafficking, and transportation for prostitution. That's five counts total, all felonies, all federal crimes. The racketeering charge is basically, that dates to an 80s era US federal law that was aimed at going after the mob. But now, it's been broadened out to be used in a lot more context. And basically, what it means is that someone accused of racketeering conspired with other people and planned to commit various crimes to gain somehow. Prosecutors don't have to prove those specific underlying crimes, but basically, it's a way of saying a large criminal conspiracy.

MG: At the centre of this trial are these accusations of Sean Combs holding these things that came to be known as freak-offs. Can you describe what that means, what these things were?

JACK QUEEN: Right. The freak-offs are really central to the whole case. And basically, what prosecutors allege is that these were these private sex parties, sex performances that Mr. Combs would orchestrate. They could last anywhere from 24 hours to 36 hours to even four days. And they were essentially these drug and alcohol-fueled romps where Mr. Combs will bring in male escorts to have sex with women, including his girlfriends, while he watched.

MG: You have been there at the trial all week. What is the scene in the courtroom, but also outside the courthouse?

JACK QUEEN: Yeah, outside the courthouse, it's a bit of a circus, as you might imagine. You know, this is New York City. This is Mr. Combs's hometown. He has a lot of supporters out here and also just a lot of curious onlookers. We have a lot of YouTubers and streamers and influencers around, which is something I haven't actually seen before in a trial, and, you know, all jockeying with these throngs of reporters to get looks at Mr. Combs's family as they come in and out of the courthouse. Mr. Combs has been held in a Brooklyn facility since his arrest last September, so he's brought in through the back. But There are also people, you know, the courtroom gallery is totally packed. There's an overflow room, kind of a similar crowd in there. And yeah, Mr. Combs’s, five of his children have been there pretty much every day along with his mother. And yeah, it's an intense scene for sure.

MG: What about him? I mean, he's somebody who, before these charges arrived, lived in this extraordinary world of luxury, and now, to your point, he’s been held in custody since he was arrested. What's going on with him?

JACK QUEEN: Yeah, it's striking to see him in person, really, and to see how low he's been brought by these charges. You know, he used to be, he used to have a fashion label called Sean John, and now, he's wearing sort of, you know, sweaters over white-collared shirts and slacks. He's wearing glasses. His hair has gotten pretty grey. It's almost entirely grey now. And, you know, but other than that, he looks to be in pretty good shape. And at least on the first day of trial, he appeared to be in very good spirits, actually. He seemed to be very glad to have his day in court finally and, you know, have the opportunity to get out of his cell. I remember when he was walking into the courtroom for the first time, he saw his children. He was smiling at them, pumping his fist, they were shooting him heart symbols back with their hands. But, you know, his demeanour has changed a little bit as we've gotten into, you know, the third day of testimony here because his ex-girlfriend has been on the stand, and the testimony has been frankly pretty horrifying in terms of her descriptions of these parties and how she said they were so humiliating and so forth.

MG: This is Cassie Ventura. She testified this week. And one of the things that is central to this is that the judge allowed leaked surveillance video to be played showing Diddy physically assaulting Cassie Ventura. What does the video show?

JACK QUEEN: Right. Yeah. That infamous video, it was published last year by CNN, and it's pretty disturbing. It shows, essentially, Cassie is leaving a hotel room, she's walking down a hallway to get on an elevator. While she's waiting for it, Mr. Combs is seen running in, and he grabs her by the hood of her hoodie, throws her to the ground, starts kicking her, grabs her things. He's wearing just a towel and socks, and he grabs her things, and he starts to drag her down the hallway, then leaves her, goes away for a little bit. Ms. Ventura gets up, slowly walks over to this hotel phone that's on the wall, calls security. Mr. Combs then comes back, he sits down there having a conversation that we can't hear. There's no audio in the video. And he throws a vase in her direction, and it shatters all over the place. And around that time, security shows up. It's a rather disturbing video. And after it was published, Mr. Combs did apologize for it publicly.

MG: What else has she said about what happened? I mean, part of this is around videos apparently that were taken of these so-called freak-offs that he has used allegedly as a bargaining chip or at least to threaten her, right, that he would publish these videos and ruin her life.

JACK QUEEN: Absolutely, yeah, the threats of blackmail are pretty central to prosecutor's case because what they're trying to say essentially is that he violently, with, you know, violence, threats of violence and blackmail, coerced these women into participating in these freak-offs even though they really didn't want to, and Ms. Ventura has made that abundantly clear. She says these were horrible and degrading and humiliating experiences, but she felt she had to do them to keep him happy, to avoid beatings and to avoid him publishing videos of these encounters, which he threatened her would ruin her career if they got out. So that's the central part of the case. The jurors have not seen the videos yet. We're not sure when that's going to happen. When it does, since they are extremely sexually explicit, of course, they're going to be shown just to the jurors, not the public or the press. Yesterday, jurors did see some still images from those videos, but again, those were only showed to the jury, not the press. All we could see was their reactions to seeing them from their private monitors that they have in the jury box.

MG: What is your sense as to what kind of defence his team is going to mount?

JACK QUEEN: So pretty key to their defence is, and this is quite interesting actually, as I mentioned, this is a racketeering and sex trafficking case. It's not a domestic violence case. Domestic violence, assault, things like that are state crimes, and this is in federal court. And what his lawyers have already said in their opening statements, which is quite remarkable, is that Mr. Combs, their client, is guilty of domestic violence, but that this is not a Domestic Violence case, and therefore he should not be convicted on these charges. And that's a quite remarkable admission to make about your client, and it is interesting because it drives to what prosecutors actually need to prove here. We're already getting all of this cumulative evidence from Ms. Ventura alone. There's going to be other victims who are going to testify with really quite strong evidence of violence, you know, pictures of bruises and just testimony about their relationship lasted about 11 years, and she said he was routinely beating her and flying off the handle at the slightest things. And but ultimately, that's not necessarily enough to convict on racketeering or sex trafficking because another interesting thing here too is that while Ms. Ventura said that, you know, she was coerced and blackmailed into doing these freak-offs, she also did them because she loved Mr. Combs. And it was a horribly manipulative and abusive relationship, but she still loved him, and that complicates things. You know, his team has also indicated that they plan to argue that she was also violent with Mr. Combs, and that this was a mutual domestic violence situation, and also that Ms. Ventura and the other accusers were out for a payday. Ms. Ventura filed a civil lawsuit against Mr. Combs with similar allegations back in November 2023. They settled the next day. It wasn't disclosed at the time what the settlement amount was, but Ms. Ventura testified yesterday that it was $20 million. So the defence is going to argue that these allegations were also motivated by money.

MG: If Sean Combs is found guilty, I have to let you go, but very briefly, if he's found guilty, what sort of sentence does he face?

JACK QUEEN: In short, he could look at life in prison. These are very serious charges, but, you know, 10 years in prison, two life in prison, or basically anywhere in between. And he's 55 years old, so that could entail spending the rest of his life in prison.

MG: Jack Queen, perhaps we will talk again as this trial unfolds. It is getting attention for all of the obvious reasons, but also just because of celebrity and power and everything else that's going on. Thank you for bringing us up to date, and we'll talk again.

JACK QUEEN: Anytime.

MG: Jack Queen is a legal correspondent for Reuters. He was in New York City.

[music]

MAKING FRIENDS

Guests: Gabrièle Lagacé, Frank Huynh

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway. If you're a kid, making friends is pretty easy. You go to the playground, you meet people in school. If you’re an adult, making new friends can be difficult. People are busy navigating their careers, starting families, trying to maintain old friendships, plus there's things like contactless food delivery, remote work, streaming platforms. So where are you supposed to go to meet new people? And who would actually want to talk to you if you're trying to meet new people? Well, it turns out that young adults are finding creative new ways to make new friends.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Hi.

SPEAKER: Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER: Good. How are you?

SPEAKER: I'm doing good.

SPEAKER: I'm here for the Timeleft dinner, table one.

SPEAKER: Sounds good. Follow me.

SPEAKER: Am I the first one here?

SPEAKER: I think you’re the first one here. I'll sit you guys right here.

SPEAKER: Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER: Did you want still sparkling or tap water to start you off?

SPEAKER: Tap water is good. Thank you so much.

MG: Timeleft is an app. You select your city, then you sign up for a dinner any Wednesday night. You show up at the restaurant at 7 p.m., and you meet a group of total strangers.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Hey, hi.

SPEAKER: Hello, hi, nice to meet you.

SPEAKER: I'm Samantha.

SPEAKER: Samantha. I'm Robyn. Nice to meet you guys.

SPEAKER: Hey.

SPEAKER: Hi.

SPEAKER: What's your name?

SPEAKER: David.

SPEAKER: I think you can just, because you can do more stuff without interacting with people, like I can like order stuff online or whatever, then you get less of those like little moments, right? That's what I like about this. It’s like, it’s basically like ordering a hangout online, right?

SPEAKER: True, yeah.

SPEAKER: So yeah, it's very, it kind of, it doesn't make you automatically make friends, but it kind of levels the playing field with like how things have changed.

SPEAKER: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I think I'll do some dim sum. I'll make a mini empanada.

SPEAKER: I came to my first Timeleft because it had been two years since I had moved to Toronto, and I felt like I still didn't have a social circle. My social circle consisted of my boyfriend and my brother essentially, and people are very busy in Toronto. And I am an introvert, so I enjoy my time alone. But there are times where you get a little bit restless, right? And, you know, if you live downtown, you can hear people outside in the summer enjoying their time with their friends, and you kind of think, you know, I need to get out, I need to meet people, I want to be social.

SPEAKER: So I moved from Ireland by myself, and three days after I moved, I did my first Timeleft, and I've made lifelong friends through Timeleft. Like at this age, I'm 27, you know, some of your friends are going off to get married, some are having kids, some are emigrating. So I can see how like friendship groups kind of like fade. I also don't work in a corporate job or anything like that, and my team, like there's one young guy on my team, but the rest are all like, you know, seasoned. They're certainly not going to be looking for friends to go out with.

MG: Apps like Timeleft aren't the only way to make new friends. You could try to organize your own opportunities. And that is what Gabrièle Lagacé and Frank Huynh have done. Gabrièle lives in Toronto and founded Bon Vivant. It's an organization that hosts dinner parties for groups of strangers. She's with me in our studio in Toronto. And Frank is the founder of the Sole Run Club. He is in our Calgary studio. Good morning to you both.

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: Good morning.

FRANK HUYNH: Good morning.

MG: Gabrièle, what was going through your mind? You listened to strangers there getting together at dinner.

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: I think that's very much so what we're trying to do too, right? These people are meeting others out around the dinner table, which is what the concept of Bon Vivant started from, for those conversations. So I have yet to try Timeleft, but I'd love to.

MG: Frank, it was interesting in hearing those people. They talked about how they had moved to new communities and just found it difficult to break into the larger social scene. Does that sound familiar?

FRANK HUYNH: Yeah. I mean, coming from Toronto, it's a place where there's so many people, right? And then you kind of look around and you're seeing all these people have fun out and about, and then you might look at yourself and think, why isn't that me?

MG: Before you start, I want to talk about what you've done with this, but before you started Bon Vivant, what was your own situation like, Gabrièle, in terms of trying to make friends? What was going on?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: So a few years ago, after I graduated school, I moved to London in the UK, and I found myself in a similar position of the people we’re targeting, where I knew absolutely no one. And I was looking for those types of organized events that brought expats together or other people trying to meet others, so that you didn't just go up to someone, you know, at a gym trying to make friends, and then you realize they don't really want to be friends with you, they already have their own group. And I found that super successful in London, those organized activities. And when I moved to Toronto, I had a group of friends, but I realized that I was still craving those organized activities. And I saw kind of a gap in the market for the mid-20s to mid-30s demographic that's straight out of school and finding it hard to make new friends outside of those environments where you're so collaborating with others or at work. So that's kind of where it started from.

MG: Why do you think it was difficult to make friends? I mean, part of it is, as you said, you're in London, you don't want to just be some rando who's talking to somebody in a gym. Why, in a big city like that, or in a city like the one you're in right now, why was it hard to break in?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: I wonder if people have stopped going up to people as organically as much. We're so online now and you get so much interaction too from online, but it isn't as fulfilling. And I find people stay in their own circles. Maybe they're not as, you know, wanting to put themselves out there and get out of their comfort zones to meet others, because I don't think it's as the norm anymore. So it's a bit scary maybe for a age group to just go up to someone and want to be friends with them. So that's why we kind of organize these events, that people know that everyone around them is in the same boat, that they're willing to meet others. But yeah.

MG: What about for you, Frank? I mean, what was it like for you? How were you trying to make new friends and what were you up against?

FRANK HUYNH: Yeah, so I moved to Calgary the first time around during the pandemic in 2020, and I felt like I was dealt with a bad hand since everything was closed. And I actually inevitably, part of the reason why I moved back to Toronto at the time was because I didn't have any friends. And so I made the decision to move back to Toronto for a time period and only recently moved back to Calgary where I am right now. And then this time around, I want to do something different. And I found that the running community, and it did help that I was already very well doing marathons in the past and stuff, but I decided to kind of just say, hey, like I think run clubs are a great way to connect with others. People at the end of the day go into these spaces, whether to run, meet new people. But at the end of the day, it's just creating a third space for people. And I think that's what's missing in our society.

MG: What did you feel like you were missing out on? You said you didn't have friends. It sounds like an obvious question, but what did you feel like you were missing out on in that time?

FRANK HUYNH: Probably just genuine connections at the end of it. So I started the Sole Run Club with a couple of my friends, and it stemmed from not having any friends in the first place, right? So I felt that I had such a good experience going to other run clubs that I said, hey, why not create another run club, so to say, in Calgary and allow more people to have more options to come to these run clubs and see what it's like. And it's amazing to see all these newcomers come to these run clubs, never ran their life, and they're just like, hey, we had such a fun experience and we want to come back again.

MG: We'll talk more about that. Gabrièle, tell me a little bit about starting Bon Vivant and what, I mean, again, you've talked a bit about the circumstances that you were in. Why did you think getting people around a dinner table, strangers around a dinner table would be a good idea?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: For me, food has always been a big part of my life. It's a big part of my family's life as well. And every time I thought about when I had the best chats, is when I hosted dinner parties or attended dinner parties, and it's When you meet everyone and there's groups of different people around the dinner table that a friend brought together. And you End up having, you're not constricted on time. You're sat at the table for somewhere up to like two to four hours, and you end up having such deep, meaningful connections. I don't know what it is about the dinner table, but I feel like it strips back people's kind of like barriers and walls, and they just feel like sharing, and you're around candles and you’re sharing food and you’re sharing stories. And I've always had my most meaningful conversations, I found, around the dinner tables. So to me, that was the most organic way to bring that third space to people, to make people be able to share and make those connections that will last beyond the evening.

MG: Usually, you don't go to a dinner party and know nobody at the table. Like usually, you go to a dinner, you know a handful of people. Maybe there's different people in different social circumstances, but you have some allies. This is like all strangers.

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: All strangers. Sometimes they'll have a duo or two that come together, but most of them are completely strangers. Yeah.

MG: Who cooks?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: Me.

MG: You cook all the food.

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: Our last one, we hired chefs because it was a 24-person dinner. But the other ones, yeah, it was me.

MG: And who shows up?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: You have people from Toronto who a lot of them are either straight out of school and looking to build more community because their friends left, or you have people in their early 30s who have just moved to the city from other countries or their cities and are looking to make those connections and those social groups.

MG: Do they tell you about why they show up?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: Yeah, we ask a few of them. A lot of them are, they've seen our videos online, it seemed like it was a great Environment, they love dinner parties, they love how we create a theme. And then others are just like yeah, like I'm just looking really to meet other people. So for some people, it's an experience, and for others, it's really like they're looking for that third space where they can get out of their homes and meet others. So a lot of them, it's to meet people, and others, for an experience.

MG: Does it ever get weird? Like does it end strange and awkward and conversation is going and then it just grinds to a halt?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: You would think so. And that was my biggest fear. What we do is we start the events with a sort of mingling session at the start. So you have like a half hour to 45 minutes of everyone gets a drink and you start talking. And we, like I'm in there also like getting conversation going, asking questions. And it seems to kind of like make everyone just a bit more at ease. So by the time they get to the table, they've probably talked to who they're sat next to already. And we have some conversation cards on the table as well. They’re more conversation starters rather than icebreakers. So real topics.

MG: Like what are the questions?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: One thing would be like, what is your biggest struggle you find in a big city like Toronto? Or if you, if money wasn't, you know, something you cared about, what would be your job tomorrow? Or if You can move anywhere in the world, where would it be and why? Things that are really big conversation starters that people can all jump into.

MG: When people leave, have you seen people talking to each other and have you heard of friendships that have developed outside of the dinner table and outside of the dining room, that people actually hang out, that this is something that has created a larger connection?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: Yeah, this is actually my favourite part of it. And we've had groups of friends who send us photos after being like, hey, like I, like now, we have like a monthly reoccurring like friend date that we go out to restaurants, and we try different ones and we call them like the Bon Vivant reunions, because they met at one of our dinners. We have people that created group chats after and then go to workout classes on weekend mornings. And yeah, so it's been really, really great, super rewarding to see that it's working and that people are forming groups from there.

MG: Frank, what about for you? I mean, you talked about fitness being a way in. And the thing with the run club is you spend time running, obviously, but you'll hang out before and you'll hang out after. Why is that a good way to bring people together, people who might not know each other, but who are looking for some sort of connection?

FRANK HUYNH: Yeah, because I think the entry to just meeting up at a run club is just you're meeting at a public space, right? So oftentimes, you're just, that before period before you actually do the activity, you're just standing around. And I think there's kind of like that period where you're just standing around, not sure what to do, where you interact with the people beside you, right? And then you have periods of like the before where you talk a little bit, the actual run. So people at the end of it get a run into it. And then afterwards, it's that post-coffee or post-cool-down area. And I think there's something to be said that how friendships are formed, it's the amount of like unplanned, frequency of unplanned interactions, of seeing the person over and over again, right? It's a little bit more organic where you see the person one week, right, and then, you know, you might just have a quick dialogue of saying hello, how are you? And then you may see them again the following week, right? And the thing is you're not planning. Like I guess we plan to come every Saturday morning at 9 a.m. in Bridgeline in Calgary, but it's coming week after week where you see the same people that builds that familiarity. And that's where I think organic friendships are more formed easier in that sense.

MG: Have you seen the payoff from that, a bit of what we heard earlier from Gabrièle, that people outside of the Run Club will tell you that they met somebody who ended up becoming a friend because of the run club?

FRANK HUYNH: Oh, absolutely. I'm literally a, I guess, proof of a concept myself. Like I moved here in September, and within the month, I kind of had friends that I, no, I wouldn't say they were like close friends at the time. I didn't know. But that's how it starts, right? It starts with just these unplanned interactions of coming repeatedly, week after week. And I also kind of noticed that it takes kind of like two interests. So like if you meet them at a common place, whether that's through Gabrièle’s like dinner event or a run club, for example, it's not until you actually have, like you learn that that person also has a second interest. So like let's just say hypothetically that you learn that they also play volleyball or basketball, that that kind of like that friendship is strengthened.

MG: If somebody is listening to this and they feel those pressures about how difficult it is to meet somebody new, to make new friends, what would you say to them? What's a word of advice that you would give them?

FRANK HUYNH: I always tell, like when I meet up at my run club in the morning, I always address the people who are the first-timer, because I totally understand how scary it is to come alone, right? And even when I try to go to like these other run clubs and I, let’s say my friends aren't available that day, even myself, who's like one of the coordinators of a run club, even I feel a little bit anxious going to these things alone. So I can only imagine what it's like going there for the first time. So I think just addressing and understanding it will be scary, it will be awkward, it gives you a little peace of mind in your brain before going into the event.

MG: Gabrièle, any words of wisdom for people who are listening?

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: I think just don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Like he said, there's going to be that moment of uncertainty and of nervousness at the beginning, and you're like, oh my gosh, this is so scary. But if you lean into it and you also know that everyone around you at these events are doing the exact same thing and feeling the exact same thing, it's a lot more appeasing and kind of removes those nerves a little bit to know you're not the only one that's feeling that way. So lean into that, right?

MG: That's great. Thank you both for being here.

GABRIÈLE LAGACÉ: Of course. Thank you for having us.

FRANK HUYNH: Thanks for having us, Matt.

MG: Gabrièle Lagacé is the founder of Bon Vivant in Toronto, and Frank Huynh founded the Sole Run Club in Calgary. You wonder how people go about in a world where, as we said, you can get contactless delivery, you might be working from home, you may not have the social interactions face-to-face that you would have in past, how people go about making new friends as an adult. Are there strategies that you have employed? Are there ways that you've figured out how to make friends outside of school or work? How have you become comfortable with, as Gabrièle was saying, putting yourself out there, knowing that you have to extend yourself to try to meet somebody new? Let us know. You can email us if you have strategies. thecurrent@cbc.ca. That is The Current for this Thursday, the 15th of May. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. Mr. Mark Kelley will be here tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend. I'll see you next week.

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Thursday, May 15, 2025 Episode Transcript

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