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The AIH transcript for May 8, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Holy smoke. A Canadian Catholic tells us what it was like to stand and wait with thousands in St Peter's Square when the white smoke billowed -- and then, waited to hear the first words of the first American Pope.

CH: Well, the first except for the pretend American Pope, [NK chuckles] chosen by university students in Chicago recently, in a re-creation of the Conclave of 1492. The history prof behind it explains the powerful lesson in that exercise.

NK: And: the Young Pope. We hear from a childhood friend of the boy known as Robert -- long before he became Pope Leo the Fourteenth.

CH: It's kind of a big deal. The U.K. becomes the first country to hammer out a new trade agreement with the White House. An expert in business diplomacy tells us it won't be so easy for Canada.

NK: Getting his message across. The sister of a murder victim used artificial intelligence to generate a victim impact statement from her late brother. She tells us she believes he would have offered his killer the forgiveness she can't.

CH: And...the bleat goes on. Sheep are still by far the dominant population in New Zealand -- but a new count reveals that humans are closing the gap. Slowly, and slightly.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that puts people behind baa-ers.

[theme]

Part 1: New Pope: Square, U.K./U.S. New Deal, New Pope: Larp

New Pope: Square

Guest: Neil MacCarthy

SOUNDCLIP

[cheers]

CH: The sound of the crowd in St. Peter's Square today as white smoke began to billow from the Sistine Chapel chimney, signalling that a new Pope had been chosen. Dozens of cardinals had been shut inside the chapel since early Wednesday, deciding on a successor to the late Pope Francis. In the end, the conclave was one of the shortest in history: it took just two days and three rounds of voting. And this evening in Rome, American Cardinal Robert Prevost emerged -- and made his first remarks as Pope Leo the Fourteenth.

SOUNDCLIP

[the new Pope speaks in Latin, a crowd cheers]

CH: Neil MacCarthy was in the crowd today. He's with the Archdiocese of Toronto. And we reached him earlier today.

NK: Neil MacCarthy, where exactly are you standing in Vatican City right now?

NEIL MACCARTHY: I am literally a few steps just outside of St. Peter's Square. The energy is electric and we have a new Pope.

NK: What were those moments like? I was watching our live coverage, and the anticipation of the doors of the balcony opening. What was it like to be standing there?

NM: Oh, it's amazing just to be around the energy and the excitement and a prayerful environment as well. People from around the world, flags from dozens of nations. And then, obviously, when the white smoke goes up, then we, okay, is it grey? Is it white? Is it black? Then, the bells came, and so we knew we have a Pope. And then, there's that period of about an hour where we had to wait, and who was it going to be, who would step up onto the balcony? So yeah, you're watching history unfold. It's a beautiful thing.

NK: The moment that Pope Leo walked out onto that balcony, the first American Pope, the reaction, I mean, it was hard to, it wasn't a cheer right away. It was an interesting response in those initial moments. How did it feel to you?

NM: Yeah, well, I think first and foremost, most people, it's difficult to see. And then, also, you know, he's not necessarily one of the three or four names. He was certainly probably on some experts, you know, top 10, 15 list in terms of potential papaboli. But a lot of people who are from many different countries in the world wouldn't necessarily recognize him because he's not, you know, for many Catholics or people who were just visiting Rome, wouldn't be easily identifiable in that way. The same thing kind of happened when Pope Francis came out on the balcony. And, you know, as soon as you come to learn more about them and get to know them. But that initial moment is, you know, it's probably a little bit of shock in terms of, okay, who exactly is it? There's a buzz amongst, you know, people outside saying, okay, who is it? Where's he from? Who's this person? And so, yeah, it's just an interest and a fascination with this moment, but not necessarily knowing too much about the person in those first moments.

NK: Pope Francis was seen as a big departure. What about Pope Leo? Will this Pope be a continuation, do you think, of what you know so far of Pope Francis' work and the kind of legacy he leaves behind?

NM: Yeah, I think, you know, it's always difficult to make the assessment, of course, one hour into the papacy. But, you know, the pope is different as pope than they are sometimes as cardinal. First and foremost, they're a faithful and holy priest. I think this Pope had a reputation and probably had the support of the College of Cardinals because he had some of the qualities they were looking for. One is a missionary. He was born as an American, and has spent most of his life as a missionary in Peru and other parts of the world. So, he has that global experience and that outreach to those who are on the margins, just being a missionary. He's also someone who's had the experience of being in leadership as a religious order superior and having the roles of responsibility in that sense. And then, also in the area of governance of the Vatican, he's worked the last couple years as the head of they call it the Dicastery or the Office of Bishops, so the office that is responsible for recommending to the Pope bishops that will be selected from around the world. But I think in terms of his pastoral tone, as we would say as Catholics, very much in the spirit of Francis, that idea of reaching out to the margins and those who feel isolated.

NK: Did you know Pope Leo before he became pope?

NM: No, I've never met the man, but it's funny that I've been working out of the Augustinian monastery in the last few days, and that he's an Augustinien priest. So, it's like Christmas for them because one of their own who worked here in the very building I was working out this week is now a pope, so they're screaming and yelling and dancing and hugging. It's a huge celebration for them.

NK: We spoke earlier this week, and you know, as people want to see reform and change in the Catholic Church, Gemma Hickey is one of them, a sexual abuse survivor, who's pushing for change. And they're there with others, and they were making inroads, they said, with Pope Francis and are hoping for change this time around. What would you say to people like Gemma Hickey who've gone through this and are hoping against hope that there might be change and recognition for them in a way that there hasn't been in the past?

NM: Well, I think Pope Francis demonstrated to us the whole spirit of reconciliation in his faith to see his visit to Canada, the new chapter that has been developed in relations with Indigenous peoples, this time he spent here at the Vatican meeting with them, hearing their stories. And, I mean, obviously we'll have to see how this new pope lives his ministry out, but all indications are that it would be very much a continuation of the pontificate of Francis, the idea of the church as a field hospital, reaching out to those who feel isolated, marginalized, hurt. And so, we have to give them a little bit of time on that, but there's no indication that that wouldn't continue in the same spirit that Francis has had over the last 12, 13 years.

NK: And Pope Leo's first words, peace among those words. How did it feel for you to hear that in this moment?

NM: Well, we're in a troubled world that has so much conflict, even in the last few days, as they entered the conclave, India, Pakistan, the Middle East, Ukraine, Russia, so many parts of the world. And also, where it's still illegal, or you can be persecuted as a Christian, too. So, there's so much division. I think leading with peace, leading with love, leading with acceptance is something that hopefully we model as people of faith. I pray that Pope Leo the 14th will embrace that. I have no doubt that he will. And we just need to give him time for his ministry to breathe, so to speak, and to see how he lives his papacy because every pope is a little bit different with their style, their personality. I'm sure he will be unique and a tremendous blessing for so many around the world.

NK: Neil, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

NM: Okay, thank you.

CH: Neil MacCarthy is with the Archdiocese of Toronto. He was in Vatican City earlier today.

[calypso]

U.K./U.S. New Deal

Guest: Marc Busch

CH: Donald Trump says countries around the world are lining up to bargain with him on trade. And today, the U.S. president announced his first handshake deal. It would see the U.K. market open up to more American exports. And in return, the White House will reduce tariffs on British steel, aluminum, and cars. The wider global tariff of 10 per cent imposed last month remains in place. The details of the agreement are not yet finalized. But that hasn't stopped President Trump from touting the plan.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: It's the first of its kind. So, we have a big economic security blanket, and that's very important. And we feel very, very comfortable with that because it's been a great ally, truly one of our great allies. I mean, a lot of people say our greatest ally. I don't want to insult people by saying that, but I can say it's certainly one of our greatest, right at the top. And they're the first one we're talking about. And, by the way, we have many meetings planned today and tomorrow, and every country wants to be making deals.

CH: Every country, of course, including Canada -- which is facing tariffs on its auto, steel and aluminum sectors. Marc Busch is a professor of international business diplomacy at Georgetown University. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

NK: Professor, a quote, big economic security blanket. Was that how you would characterize what was announced today?

MARC BUSCH: That's certainly what the terms appear to be indicating. It looks like the two are going to largely collude against Chinese input in certain of their efforts. But, at base, this is a very protectionist free trade agreement laden with tariff rate quotas. And, in essence, it's like 1970s trade measures to get the United States back to the 1950s.

NK: So, the details that still need to be hammered out, how crucial are they from where you sit?

MB: This is going to be a really tough one, despite the fact that it's probably the easiest country with which the United States could negotiate, given that there's been a high-level working group working on a U.S.-U.K. trade deal for many years now. And the balanced trade certainly is encouraging, but the template has been there for a while, so this was a good one to start with. But the reality is that the terms don't really address the big non-tariff measures. You can see that already the U.K. is chalking up, in its view, a win because it's not giving in on health and safety standards on food, for example. You're getting a reduction on the U.K. side on some agricultural tariffs. That's certainly good news, but that's not where the action is.

NK: So, it gives the feeling of this security blanket, but ultimately is this a good plan for Britain and its people?

MB: Look, the U.K. certainly wants a deal and it's got some of its key exports to the United States covered. The steel and aluminum carve out, whatever happens on the sectoral tariffs going forward, all for the better for the U.K. And the U.K. has been rabidly trying to catch up with the EU ever since Brexit in terms of just matching the sheer volume of trade deals that the EU has. This puts them a little out on the ledge in terms of going it alone for the first time in a big way with a big country like the U.S. and a protectionist country like the U.S. So, this is a win for the U.K. in a lot of ways, but it just doesn't have the feel of a real trade deal if I want to be honest here. This is a very cloistered, very protectionist agreement. And the details are going to be hard to pluck through, especially on digital trade.

NK: Obviously I'm going to ask you about Canada, that's what we're focused on. You're originally from Canada as well, and you're watching it. Is there anything that Ottawa can and should read into in today's announcement?

MB: Canada's in a very different situation in the sense that it's got the baggage of USMCA and NAFTA and the '89 bilat as background. So, up against those trade deals, which were real trade deals, ottawa has to look at the terms of what we know to be the U.S.-U.K. deal at this point with dismay. They're not getting back to zero. They're going to be staring down that universal 10 per cent across-the-board tariff. They're going to be subjected to a lot of the rigmarole through the sectoral deals. And the big mystery, of course, is whether anyone's gonna show up in July of 2026 to renew/renegotiate USMCA. Moreover, the biggest question for Ottawa is gonna be what to do about Mexico? So, imagine that Ottawa rushes to the table and says we've learned the lessons of the U.K. deal and we want ours as well. What does that mean then for Mexico and USMCA writ large? That's going to be a big challenge. And the U.K. didn't have that baggage.

NK: Obviously, there's been a lot of discussion in Canada about inter-provincial trade and improving that, but also expanding trading relationships, finding other markets. Is that a smart strategy?

MB: It's a smart strategy so long as it's not the only strategy. It's really hard to run away from gravity. And, at the end of the day, there's an enormous gravitational pull south. And Canada's not gonna escape from the gravitational pull that is the U.S. Market. For all of the ugliness we're seeing at the moment in terms of this new isolationist stance, this new protectionism in Washington, D.C., it's going to be hard to turn a blind eye to that gravitational pull.

NK: As you look at the list of all of the countries that the United States could make a deal with, and Trump saying that every country wants to make a deal, where is Canada in that lineup? Are we the next to make the deal? We weren't the first. Also, does that position matter?

MB: I don't know that it really matters. Obviously, everyone wants to beat the pause expiration date. But again, Trump is going to think about Canada and Mexico differently because he knows that those deals will necessarily implicate USMCA. And I don't know that Trump knows what he wants to do about USMC in a year's time. So, all of that will weigh heavily on Canada's positioning in the queue. The trade deal that really will be the most consequential, the one that the markets will read the most into, is the deal with the EU. And that's because, unlike the U.K., the EU can hit back. It is not inconsequential that the EU is already threatening today their retaliation list in the event that talks falter. It's kind of like that Bruce Lee movie, Enter the Dragon, where a bully breaks a board in front of Bruce Lee's face and Bruce Lee responds, but boards don't hit back. The U.K. couldn't hit back, the EU can hit back. That's why that deal, the terms of that deal, will matter the most.

NK: Professor, I appreciate this. Glad we could speak. Thank you.

MB: Thanks for having me.

CH: Marc Busch is a professor of international business diplomacy at Georgetown University. He’s in Washington, D.C.

[toy store music]

New Pope: Larp

Guest: Ada Palmer

CH: While the eyes of the world were on Rome today, we'd like to point out that Leo wasn't the first Pope chosen this year. In fact, he's not even the first American Pope with connections to the midwest. Just weeks ago, at a chapel on the campus of the University of Chicago, Professor Ada Palmer -- who is also an award-winning science fiction novelist -- led her students through a simulated conclave based on the events of 1492, when Alexander the Sixth was named pope. For 15 years now, it's been part of her Italian Renaissance history class. Students call the experience "Pope Larping" -- an acronym for "Live Action Role-Playing". But this year, the exercise took on a new resonance. On the very day that students chose their new pope, news came in that Pope Francis had died. Nil spoke to Professor Ada Palmer in Chicago earlier today, as we were still awaiting a decision in Rome.

NK: Professor, as we speak, at this hour, the world is still waiting to find out who the new pope is going to be, but you already have your pope. Can you describe them to us?

ADA PALMER: Yes. So our pope is from Milan -- fictitiously. Although, from the U.S. in reality. So, this year, the selectee was a cardinal from Milan, who's promised to defend Italy against the threat of an invasion from France.

NK: Who are they, really? [chuckling]

AP: So, he's actually a student who's, I think, focusing on a combination of computer things and literature things. Danny Kind is his name.

NK: Not a Catholic, which has been pointed out.

AP: No, Jewish background, yes.

NK: And they've also written about his green hair and his corn t-shirt.

AP: Every pope was a young and wild teenager once. [NK chuckles] And simply, my popes are elected while they still are.

NK: While you were just wrapping up with your class, the conclave reenactment that you put together, you learned that a real conclave was going to be convened. How did the students react to that?

AP: Uh, in a mixture of ways. In one half, they were sort of stunned and awed, and thinking, oh yeah, this is not a historically distant thing, this happens every time. And, and the biggest message that I've seen them talk about is how much less political the papacy is now than it was. And that feels funny because we're very aware of how political it is. And as we talk about the front-runner candidates, we all talk about whether they're liberal or whether they are conservative, and what countries they're from. But they aren't commanders of armies they aren't going to invade cities.

NK: It's fascinating. I've seen some of the photographs of all of this unfolding, but if we, with our listeners, were able to be there, to be in the Rockefeller Chapel on the University of Chicago campus as this is all happening, what would we see?

AP: So, you see the beautiful, enormous, you know, Gothic space with its arches and columns, and the sunlight streaming in through the stained glass. And in the chapel then you see little groups of people in long red robes clustered in twos and threes and fours whispering to each other, far from each other. As in between them are clerks dressed in monk robes and priest robes usher around to guide the cardinals through the voting process. And it really looks like the conclave movie, except everybody has modern sneakers, [NK chuckles] or modern, you know, women's pumps or high-heeled shoes sticking out from underneath their red robes. And there are lots of modern backpacks sitting among the pews. And, of course, half of the cardinals in my simulation are women because the class is open to everyone. And so women playing male characters. But nonetheless, there with their long hair streaming down.

NK: Everyone can be a pope in your conclave.

AP: Yes, we've had female popes, we had transgender popes, we've had Muslim popes, we've had Jewish popes, we've had Anglican popes, we've had Protestant popes, we've had a couple of Catholic popes

NK: And just as we're speaking, I should tell you white smoke has just emerged.

AP: Has it?! Oh wow! Today will be the big day then, or at least the beginning of the big day. Because another thing is that the process of actually selecting the pope is, in our simulation, only actually the first half, or the first third of what we do. Because after the selection of the pope is the coronation of the pope, which is a very long and important process with envoys coming from communities all over Europe and all over the world. So, the white smoke rising as we speak means we are two-fifths of the way through the process of electing our pope, as my students well know.

NK: And what do you make of, I mean, it happened relatively quickly this time around.

AP: I mean, that's not enormously surprising because what makes the consensus come about is careful conversations. And that's something that the real cardinals have been being able to do for the days as the funeral happened, as they gathered, as they prepared to go into the chapel. So, a lot of the groundwork is laid very quickly, if you see what I mean.

NK: What is your favorite part of seeing your simulation, your conclave with your students play out?

AP: It's the way they all feel power. Everyone comes out of the other end of the simulation realizing how much their personal actions shaped what happened. Even if they didn't become pope, even if they weren't a front runner, but they were a supporter, or they were in opposition. We often come away saying that the lesson of the stimulation is that everyone in the room has power, no one in the Room has control. And what actually happened as an outcome of you know what policy decisions the pope makes, very few of those are just freely unilaterally made by the pope. They're shaped by conversations by promises. And so, as our pope sits upon his throne after we crown him, and then a dozen petitions come before him for him to make important judgments about different questions, the judgments that he makes are not him, you know, laterally deciding. They are him responding to the sets of promises, questions, and pressures exerted by everyone else in the room. And when the Pope ends up making judgments, every student in the room, even the one who is just the master of the kitchens, will have a moment where he's like, oh wow, he made that choice because of a conversation we had. And I often get emails from students who've taken this class who write to me a couple of years later to say, I never realized how much realizing how power works would affect me, but now I'm using these lessons in my business. Now, I'm doing these lessons, in my career as an artist and how I negotiate with the people at the gallery and the other artists for exhibit space. Now, I've decided to go to law school and I'm using this in my courtroom all the time. It's rare.

NK: How do you feel, Professor, about those emails and what students have been telling you about how you have changed their lives?

AP: They're very moving. And it tells me that the hard work I put in is the right hard work, but I'm also learning from them as well.

NK: Professor, it has been a pleasure speaking with you, especially at this historic moment. Thank you.

AP: This has been a treat. Thank you

CH: Ada Palmer is a Professor of History at the University of Chicago and a science fiction novelist. We reached her in Chicago.

[light rock]

NZ Sheep Ratio

[stomping, bleats]

CH: Here they come around the bend, still way out in front: the sheep. Look how majestic they are! Listen to their bleats of triumph! Nothing will ever challenge their dominance -- wait, what's this? From out of nowhere, it's a human! And somehow, the human appears to be gaining on the sheep! Will the human stage a come-from-behind victory? Could this be the end of the sheep's dynasty? [fades] We were all stunned to see today's Associated Press headline -- which is "Yes, New Zealand still has more sheep than people. But humans are catching up." "Catching up?!" you gasp. "But," you continue to gasp, "in 1982, there were 3.2 million people in New Zealand, and 70 million sheep. That's 22 sheep per person. That was 43 years ago, but still -- how could the human population have caught up with the sheep population?!" First, thank you for that informative gasp. It really saved me some exposition. Anyway: yesterday, Stats NZ released the astonishing new numbers. Brace yourself: now, there are 5.3 million people in New Zealand -- and a mere 23.6 million sheep. "Wait a second," you gasp. "Sure, that means there are only 4.5 sheep per person now. But there are still 18.3 million more sheep than people. Does that count as 'catching up'?" Listen, I'm starting to worry about all your gasping, but you're right: does it count as catching up? Not really. Am I whining about a headline and ignoring the significance of the shrinking sheep population in New Zealand vis-a-vis the wool industry? Yes. Sorry. But I'm sure they'll get this whole sheep-numbers situation sorted out over the next 43 years. After all, where there's wool, there's a way.

[ambient]

Part 2: New Pope: Former Classmate, AI Victim Impact Statement

New Pope: Former Classmate

Guest: John Doughney

CH: Before today, Pope Leo XIV was Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost. And long before that, he was just Robert Prevost. That's how John Doughney knew him. Mr. Doughney and the new Pope are both graduates of St. Mary's grade school in Riverdale, Illinois, class of 1969. We reached John Doughney in Grapevine, Texas.

NK: John, did you ever think that one day you'd be able to say that you had gone to school with the Pope?

JOHN DOUGHNEY: Well, I used to kid about being Pope John the 24th. [NK chuckles] And I think every boy who attends Catholic school has at least some ideation of going into the priesthood. But no, to think that the next pope was, number one, going to be from the U.S., and number two, would be somebody that went to school with me, that was beyond my wildest dreams.

NK: So many people were surprised that it was an American pope was chosen in the end, and then a person from Chicago. Were you watching as it all unfolded?

JD: Well, I was actually on a Zoom call, and the Zoom call was still going, and so I really couldn't pay too much attention except my phone just started blowing up. And so, I realized that there was white smoke, and then I realized it was Robert Prevost.

NK: [chuckling] Well, I'm glad we got through all of that, and that we get to speak now. You said it never, you know, in your wildest dreams, you didn't imagine this. Do you think Pope Leo, the man you knew, or the student you knew as Robert, envisioned this?

JD: Oh, I believe so. Oh, I believe so. He never articulated that, but you know, when I think about the characteristics that we would want in the Pope, the leader of the Catholic Church, we would want deep faith and spirituality. We would want somebody who's very moral, someone who's compassionate, somebody who connects rather than divides, and somebody who has intellectual depth. And you could see that in Robert, even as a 12-, 13-year-old.

NK: Really?! How did that show up?

JD: Well, it was his character. If you think of a 13-year-old boy and a 13-year-old boy's characteristics, usually what comes to mind is not kindness, [NK chuckles] compassion, consideration. Those are not things, you think of other things, which is typically normal. But I think it was obvious to the rest of us that he was just different. He was different, and there was something about, even his deep faith. We were all in Catholic school together, and we attended mass together, and served as altar boys together. But, you know, there were levels of just how devout you could be at the age of 13. And he was different. And it did not surprise me to see a picture of him in, I think it was in the '80s, where he went into the priesthood. And that didn't surprise me at all. Now, I have not had any contact with him since 1969 when we graduated Eighth Grade. And so, you know, it's just the St. Mary's experience, and growing up in the Catholic Church that he just epitomized all those same characteristics that we would say, yeah, that's what we want in a pope. And he was characterizing them as, or portraying them as a 12- and 13-year-old. His classmates could see that in him. His classmates could see how smart he was. It was obvious in our school because we got ranked according to what desk you sat in. And so, it was pretty obvious when Robert's in the first one that he was the smartest in the room. But, you know, some people like to be the smartest in the room. He was one who never flouted.

NK: And I know it has been such a long time since you've had any contact, but it's interesting. You know, it's clear he has not, he doesn't shy away from speaking his mind. I've heard that from experts on this story. But also, you know, we see it in his social media posts, specifically calling out U.S. Vice President JD Vance, a lot of people sharing that. Was he outspoken in that kindness and how smart he was, even as a child?

JD: I don't remember that. I remember him being much more introspective. And again, you know, we're talking of when he was in the seminary, and early days as a priest, I would imagine he became much more outspoken. I was a very quiet kid, but in my later years, I have become very outspoken about public education, which is the field that I went into. And so, it doesn't surprise me that he would be outspoken on the things that he cares a lot about. And I would only anticipate that what he demonstrated as a young man has only deepened in his character. And that's the same thing that we'll see as a pope.

NK: And it appears to be, at least in these early hours, a continuation of Pope Francis's legacy. Is that what you would like to see in the church?

JD: Yes. Personally, yes. I think the Catholic Church should be about inclusivity. And when I heard about Robert being a potential papal candidate, I thought, okay, well this is somebody, if that happens, and I thought it was a long shot like most people, I thought, you know, he would continue some of that doctrine. He would continue those attitudes of inclusivity and acceptance.

NK: John, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

JD: You're very welcome.

CH: John Doughney went to grade school with Pope Leo XIV. We reached him in Grapevine, Texas.

[ambient]

AI Victim Impact Statement

Guests: Stacey Wales, Jessica Gattuso

CH: It sounds a lot like something out of an episode of Black Mirror: four years after he was shot and killed during a road rage incident, Christopher Pelkey delivered a victim impact statement at the sentencing hearing for his killer. You heard that correctly. Though it wasn't quite correct. What actually happened was that an AI-generated facsimile of Mr. Pelkey delivered a victim impact statement based on prompts from his living sister, Stacey Wales.

SOUNDCLIP

NOT THE REAL CHRISTOPHER PELKEY: Gabriel Horcacidas, the man who shot me, it is a shame we encountered each other that day in those circumstances. In another life, we probably could have been friends. I believe in forgiveness, and in God who forgives, I always have, and I still do.

CH: It's reportedly a first-of-its-kind occurrence in a U.S. court. And it culminated in a 10.5-year sentence for Mr. Pelkey's killer. We reached Stacey Wales in Chandler, Arizona -- and her victims' rights lawyer, Jessica Gattuso, in Phoenix.

NK: Stacy, what was the point that you decided that speaking up yourself and reading your own victim impact statement in court was not going to be enough for you, and that you wanted to have this AI-generated version of your brother read a statement?

STACEY WALES: I've been writing my impact statement for two years, since the first trial resulted in a retrial. And so, a week-and-a-half before sentencing, I was not able to open up the two year essay that I'd been writing on my phone with thoughts and fragments. It was too painful to look back at. And so, I felt myself starting from the ground up. When I tried to put together what I needed to say, I could not bring myself to say things like forgiveness. Because I don't forgive the shooter. I'm not there yet. But I couldn't help but hear what my brother would say, which I know he was full of forgiveness. And then, it dawned on me, if he's at such odds with how I feel and how I think, why can't his voice be heard? And since this has happened, I've shared that video with people that knew him. And every one of them have come back to me to say thank you for giving him that of a voice because even before you showed me this, that's exactly what Chris would have said, and they all knew it as well.

NK: And Jessica, you didn't find out about this choice until the night before the sentencing hearing. When Stacey raised this with you, what did you think?

JESSICA GATTUSO: At first, I was very hesitant when she approached me with the idea. I was nervous. I asked her if it, you know, what the message was going to be. I told her it wouldn't be a good idea if it was angry. And she assured me it wasn't. She sent it over. And after seeing it, I had no reservations at all. It was not at all what I expected. It was really well done. It was a message of, like Stacey said, forgiveness. And it was just really nice to see Chris through the eyes of his family. Because up to that point, we hadn't really gotten to know Chris. So, I liked the idea after I saw it.

NK: Were you surprised that the judge allowed it to be played? I think many of our listeners might be very surprised at that fact.

JG: Well, in Arizona, we have victims rights. One of those rights includes the right to be heard at sentencing. And there are statutes kind of outlining the rules for that. And one of them says that victims do not have to disclose their statements ahead of time. So, no one knew we were going to do this. We played it, and there was no objection from anyone in the courtroom. And after the fact, the judge told the family how much he loved the AI video.

NK: That's such a big risk to take at such a pivotal moment. I mean, in that moment, were you holding your breath?

JG: I was, for sure, holding my breath. I barely looked up at some point until I was sure we weren't going to get an objection. Although I was ready for an objection with my legal argument, we never did get one.

NK: And Stacy, you know, the other members of your family didn't know either. Why did you not tell them?

SW: Because I did not want to put my family through that additional burden, knowing about this ahead of time so that they would be distracted, or unsure how the other side would react. And there were 10 family members and friends that showed up at sentencing to deliver their own personal statements, and I did want to detract from theirs at all. I wanted their complete focus to be on the last thing that they were going to for their journey of healing for their loved one, for their son, their uncle, their brother.

NK: How did they react after the proceedings and after seeing Chris that way?

SW: I was the last one to go. And when I was done, and Chris faded to black, I could hear soft tears and sobbing going on. But my son, he's 14 years old, and he spoke that day along with his twin sister. But he leapt up out of the seat when I walked back to where my family was seated after it played. And he threw his arms around me, and he had been crying the whole day. And, at one point, he had to leave the room in order to collect himself. But when I walked back, he was still crying, but this time it was tears of joy. And he put his arms around me, and he says, Mom and Dad, thank you so much for making that. And then, my brother -- he's the middle of the three of us, Chris was the baby -- he hugged me, and she just said that was so good to hear from Chris. And that's exactly what I could hear Chris saying.

NK: Jessica, as you know, there are tech startups around the world working on creating AI-generated reproductions of people's loved ones who are deceased to help them try to manage their grief. Ethicists are raising concerns about that sort of process, and the fact that someone who has died cannot consent to any of this. So, as an attorney, you know, who represents victims rights, do you have concerns about rights of the principal victim in cases like this one, you know, the rights of the deceased.

JG: I can only speak to the way the video was used in this case. And from my perspective, it was part of Stacey's victim impact statement, and how she just kept coming back to what her brother, Christopher, would have to say and the impact it had on her.

NK: Do you think that it will become more commonplace, should it, in your view?

JG: I think that it could. I think we just have to all be careful. Everyone needs to be clear up front that it's AI, that it is the words of whoever created the video. And I do think victims are going to see all of these news stories, and some of them may want to try it in their own sentencing hearings. I also think with this growing technology there could be other ways it's used in courtroom, but I think only time will tell and litigation may unfold in the different ways it's being used

NK: And Stacey, just finally, to you, we know the defence has signaled that the use of this video, although there wasn't an objection, as Jessica said, in the courtroom, that it could be grounds for an appeal. Are you worried about the possibility of an appeal?

SW: You know, what was most fascinating is when that same defence attorney stood up in court at sentencing that day and he himself referenced and quoted Chris, and used him as reasoning as to why his defendant should receive a lesser sentence because Chris did not ask for the maximum. But on the other cheek, he turns and says perhaps this is reason for appeal. Anybody would be remiss to think that any murder trial conviction isn't eligible and going for an appeal. We have been expecting that since before we received a verdict. And certainly, before any impact statements were made.

NK: Stacey, I'm very sorry for your loss. But Stacey and Jessica, I thank you both for your time. Please take care.

SW: Thank you very much.

JG: Thank you.

CH: Stacey Wales is the sister of murder victim Christopher Pelkey. We reached her in Chandler, Arizona. Jessica Gattuso is her lawyer. We reached her in Phoenix.

[fiddle!!]

Noem Murphy

CH: Kilmar Abrego Garcia was mistakenly deported to El Salvador in mid-March. But U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem says the government has no intention of rectifying that mistake. Last month, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Trump administration must take steps to bring Mr. Abrego Garcia back. So far, the administration hadn't made it clear whether it was taking any of those steps. And then yesterday, in a Senate committee hearing, Ms. Noem was unequivocal. Here's Democratic Senator Chris Murphy.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS MURPHY: That court decision requires the administration to facilitate Kilmar Abrego Garcia's release from El Salvador. Can you describe the steps that you have taken to facilitate this release? And specifically, can you answer as to whether you have reached out to your counterpart in El Salvador to facilitate Mr. Abrego Garcia's release?

KRISTI NOEM: Abrego Garcia is a citizen of El Salvador, and should never have been in this country, and will not be coming back to this country. There is no scenario where Abrego Garcia will be in the United States again. If he were to come back, we would immediately deport him again because he is a terrorist, he's a human smuggler, and he is a wife-beater.

CM: You've read the Supreme Court decision, does the Supreme Court decision not require you to facilitate the return of Mr. Arbrego Garcia?

KN: The Trump administration is complying with all court orders and judges orders.

CM: Does the Supreme Court order require you to facilitate the return of Mr. Abrego Garcia? Yes or no?

KN: Abrego Garcia is a citizen of El Salvador. It is up to the president of the El Salvador to make the decision on if he is coming back.

CM: You're a defendant in the case.

KN: It's been a big topic of conversation between all of us, between the country. When the president visited the United States of America, it was discussed and talked about there. The president has been very clear on this issue, as the secretary of state, and I have as well. Abrego Garcia is not a citizen of this country and is a dangerous individual who does not belong here.

CM: I will not ask another question, but the discussion ends when the Supreme Court rules nine-zero that you have to facilitate his release. And the fact that you can't even acknowledge the wording of the order, which commands you to facilitate this release, and you advertise to this committee that you are going to willfully ignore the ruling, that is incredibly chilling for the balance of powers in a democracy that relies on the executive branch to honour decisions made by the highest court of the land.

CH: That was Democratic Senator Chris Murphy asking Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem whether Kilmar Abrego Garcia will be returned to the United States.

[glassy guitar riff]

P.E.I Christmas Lights

SOUNDCLIP

NADINE TIBBITS: It was right around Christmas almost, in October, so my dad started decorating a little bit. And he kind of just kind of kept doing it a little more every year, until my mom said one day, like, why don't you put so many on so that he'll be able to see his house kind of thing. That's really where it came from.

TONY DAVID: When the CBC was talking to your dad, he did say that was a big motivation for him putting all the lights out was, hopefully, your brother could see them from Heaven. Do you think through the years that he put enough lights on there that that happened?

NT: I definitely think so, considering some of them said that, like, airplanes could see this bright, bright light and hope that they didn't think it was a landing strip at one point. [chuckling] There's a lot of lights on it. It's lots of hours, takes a lot time, and he spent a lot money every year for them. At first, it was, like, a little bit of people here and there. Obviously, back then it was, you know, not as big. But the more my dad started doing it, the more people started showing up, and kind of Rustigo all kind of blew up. There'd be 500, 600 people that would come here through the night. It became a really big tradition for a lot of families. And it became a real big thing, and people look forward to it every year.

TD: What do you think your dad would think about all this? You know, I'm here doing a news story with you about the lights. We ran a piece on Compass the other night. That was kind of In honour of him. I mean, what do you take you think all this

NT: I mean, I'm sure deep down, he would think it was great. But on the other hand, he would be like, oh my God, will they stop talking about me already? [chuckle] He needs to know, and I think he does know, what an impact he made on so many people.

CH: That was James Gallant's daughter Nadine Tibbits talking to CBC P.E.I. reporter Tony David. Mr. Gallant -- known as Mr. Christmas of North Rustico -- died last week. He was 86.

[indie rock]

Part 3: Afro-German VE Day, P.E.I Mushrooms

Afro-German VE Day

Guest: Katharina Oguntoye

CH: Today is the 80th anniversary of Victory in Europe Day. The day Germany surrendered -- and the Nazi regime ended. And as that country looks back on that grotesque chapter of its history, some say it's ignoring crucial parts of the story -- specifically the experiences of Black people in Germany. Katharina Oguntoye is one of them. She is an activist and historian who's known for having co-edited the 1986 book Showing Our Colours: Afro-German Women Speak Out. We reached Ms. Oguntoye in Berlin.

NK: Katharina, I know you were not at the commemorations today, but what is it like in Berlin on a day like this, particularly this anniversary?

KATHARINA OGUNTOYE: You hear a lot about the 80th celebration day. And I think what was very striking that the first time it wasn't called the loss of the war, but the day of freeing. Because 'till now, it was always called the war was lost. But now, people have started to put more the thought in that we were freed of the Nazi dictatorship, yeah.

NK: How does that sit with you?

NK: The work you and others have done, the book that you mentioned, has obviously helped pave the way to this moment, and hopefully even more progress, future progress. What was the pivotal point, do you think, beyond all of the work that you and other have done for so long?

KO: The tragedy happened around the death of George Floyd, and I think that was a wake-up call for the whole world. For us, it was always, we knew that we were always under a life threat and people would not want us to live in peace, but that was the point when people who were not Black themselves understood finally what it meant to be Black.

NK: If we go back in time, under the Nazis, you're talking about modern realities or, you know, recent realities, ongoing realities, what were Afro-Germans experiencing under the Nazis during the Second World War?

KO: There was, in the Nuremberg laws, which we all know about, you know, the segregation of Jewish and so-called non-Aryan people, ostracizing from the German society. And for the Black people, it meant, for example, that you were not allowed to do school education after the Eighth Grade. So, they all had to do that after the war to fight for that for themselves. The other thing, of course, people would be taken to concentration camps when they had relationships to white people. But just that was a very harsh treatment that, for example, the young people who were teenagers, the Nazis wanted to sterilize them. So, many people were sterilized and couldn't have babies. And I know one story of a survivor who by chance could escape, and she was so happy that she could have kids after the war.

NK: Why do you think that their stories were not, or are not, better known in Germany and beyond Germany as well?

KO: Yeah, it took us, you know, to ask the right questions. It took some like myself and a few others, who had to ask these right questions, like what happened to the people there? Not only what happened in the politics, but also what happened to the lay person? You know, how did they survive, could they survive, and how were the circumstances of their lives? That's what I did when I- studied history. That was then my final thesis work. And Paulette Reed Anderson, she did a series of booklets about this history of Black Germans. For example, not many people know what the situation was in the medieval times when most people think that there was no slavery, there was no slavery in Germany officially. But they had indentured, you know, people were part of their lords, you know?

NK: Yeah, in the feudal system.

KO: They had to live in that area, yeah. But, so, also for the Black people, it meant that they were just part of the households.

NK: I wonder, in these moments though, as we see the rise of the far-right in different parts of Europe, specifically in Germany, but even the current government talking about remigrating or deporting refugees or migrants, to close borders, that kind of language, that kind rise of the far-right parties, how do you cope with that, knowing what you know?

KO: I don't let myself be gaslighted at all. [chuckle] You know, I tell, don't listen to the nonsense and don't let them distract you from what your vision is for a life that we want and the society we want to have together. We have worked so hard and we have achieved a lot. And the focus should be always, what do we want do together?

NK: Katharina, I'm so glad we could speak. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KO: You're welcome. Nice to speak to you.

CH: Katharina Oguntoye is a historian, and a founding member of the Black advocacy group JOLIBA Intercultural Network. She’s in Berlin.

[lofi]

FOA: Uber Eats Boy

CH: When Holly LaFavers's doorbell rang, and she saw what had been delivered to her front porch -- she could not just suck it up. The Kentucky woman opened her door to find a mountain of candy -- specifically, 70,000 Dum-Dum lollipops. It turns out, her adopted son Liam -- who's in Grade 2 -- used her phone to place the order on Amazon. When she realized what had happened, she frantically tried to cancel it, but it was too late. The lollipops were already on their way. But after some back-and-forth, Amazon did refund the full amount -- which was $4,000. And Ms. LaFavers will be changing some settings on her phone to prevent Liam from going on another lollipop shopping spree. Now, that story reminded us that, in 2021, our former host Carol Off spoke to Kris King, father in Sydney, Australia who went through a similar panic -- when his four-year-old boy used his phone to order an impractical number of exciting desserts.

SOUNDCLIP

KRIS KING: When it all went down, he was in a lot of trouble. I think I had steam coming out of my ears. He flew up into his bedroom, and he was told Santa wasn't coming this year.

CAROL OFF: Well, now, I've seen the bill of sale, which is about a metre long. And so, can you just tell us what your son, Christian, what did he order?

KK: I think nine ice cream cakes, 15 tubs of ice cream, 15 jars of caramel sauce, nine litres of milk. He personalized all the cakes with "Happy Birthday", [alarm] and he also ordered candles for himself.

CO: [chuckling] Now, he's four years old, right?

KK: He is four years old, yeah, yeah. So, I'd actually, and he ordered it to the fire station where I work in Sydney. So, I actually gave him the phone. We were watching a game with my daughter, and I'm trying to look after him, plus the dog, watch my daughter. And what do you normally do? You normally throw the phone to your child to try and keep him quiet, watch a bit of ABC Kids to try to calm him down. But little did we know he was ordering a whole heap of food -- [CO chuckles] ice cream and birthday cake. He actually said to me that, hey, Dad, I've ordered ice cream and some cake. And I'm like, oh yeah. I didn't think anything of it until, obviously, I got the phone call from Uber Eats. And then, I had, you know, almost dropped on the floor when I'd seen the the amount that he'd ordered

CO: Okay, and the amount was?

KK: $1,139 [both chuckle], so you can only laugh about it now, Carol. But at the time, I was like, oh my god, what has he done?

CH: That was Kris King talking to our former host, Carol Off, in 2021.

[ambient]

Mr. PG

CH: As Al Simmons sang, "Paris has the Eiffel Tower, Big Ben chimes each London hour." But the people of Prince George have Mr. PG. Those who've visited the B.C. city will be familiar with Mr. PG -- a giant wooden lumberjack that serves as the city's mascot. And today, Mr. PG is celebrating his 65th birthday, but he's not celebrating alone. Chad Hellenius is with The Exploration Place Museum and Science Centre in Prince George. He spoke to CBC Daybreak North's Catherine Hansen about the birthday boy and his wide appeal.

SOUNDCLIP

[children play and laugh in the background]

CHAD HELLENIUS: Mr. PG, I think, is just a great ambassador for the city. Everyone who comes through Prince George remembers Mr. PG. They might not remember anything else about Prince George. Usually they do, but Mr.PG really stands out. He's this giant wooden man, you know, right at the entrance of the city. I mean, it's amazing, just saying, hi guys! [chuckling] Welcome to Prince George. He's grown a lot. That original Mr. PG was a third of the size, I believe. Don't quote me on the exact height difference, but he's grown up a bit more, for sure. He's spread out and not just been an ambassador for the lumber industry, which is very important to the region, obviously, but he's been an ambassador to everything. And some very important causes. He's very, very kind with his time.

CATHERINE HANSEN: Okay, so we've seen different incarnations of him. Can you maybe walk me through what different types of versions we've seen over 65 years?

CHAD HELLENIUS: Well, let me start with my favorite Mr. PG, which is the Iron Joc Mr. PG, which was made for the Lions Club in the 1970s. Again, as an ambassador of Prince George to Lions Club conventions. And mysteriously, he walked away. He was missing for 10 years. And a local Prince Georgeite was backpacking in Scotland with her friend, and opened up a paper, and she saw Iron Joc on the front page. So, talking about what a hit at the local pub that he was. And then, arrangements were made and he came back on a lumber barge. I'm sure the pub was a little upset about it, though. Well, he's been made of wood, he's been made of fiberglass, he has been made of metal. There's been a rumor that he was made of a septic tank. We're not quite sure if it was a septic tank, possibly, possibly not. It could have been Um used for pulp chemicals, which would make sense as well, but he's Looked like all sorts of things. He's been a phone booth as well -- Mr. PG Jr.

CATHERINE HANSEN: So he's turning 65, are there any plans for him to retire?

CHAD HELLENIUS: I can't see that any time soon. I think Mr. PG will well outlive me, and everyone in this building right now. He's gonna be around forever.

CH: That's Chad Hellenius talking to the CBC about Prince George, B.C.'s mascot -- Mr. PG -- who turns 65 today.

[brisk instrumental]

P.E.I Mushrooms

Guest: Ken Sanderson

CH: From the stalwart white button to the psilocybin-packed psychoactive, mushrooms come in all shapes and sizes. There are around 14,000 known species of mushrooms found all over the world. And we now know that at least 1,000 of them can be found on Prince Edward Island. For a few years now, naturalists on P.E.I. have been documenting different species of mushrooms in an online database. And just recently, that database -- the Mushroom Atlas -- hit the 1,000 mark. And the volunteer mushroom enthusiasts responsible for the database are celebrating that milestone…by looking for more mushrooms. Ken Sanderson is the founder of the Mushroom Atlas. We reached him in Hope River, Prince Edward Island.

NK: Well, Ken, 1,000 species mark. It's a huge, huge deal there, I know. So, congratulations.

KEN SANDERSON: Thank you.

NK: You're at, actually, 1,003, if I'm not mistaken.

NM: Fourteen, 1,014 as of today.

NK: Okay! Going up and up and up. What exactly does that mean? I mean, are they all confirmed?

KS: They're confirmed so much as they've been entered into iNaturalist, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is an accurate identification.

NK: Okay. So, the number might be a little bit lower.

KS: Yep, we have people that will go and verify observations and flag them as research grade if the identification can be confirmed.

NK: And from what you know of all of these species, how many are poisonous?

KS: Very few, I would think. Generally speaking, mushrooms break into a huge category of either not tasty, or not pleasant to eat. A very small, well not a very small, but a group that are edible. And then, a very smaller group that's poisonous.

NK: Ken, when you can get out there, after the rain, the sun is shining, what do you love about those moments when you're out looking at these mushrooms?

KS: Well, I mean, just being out in the outdoors is always a plus. There is a treasure hunt aspect to it, where you're out looking for whatever you can find, and you get the enjoyment from finding things.

NK: So, dune mushrooms in particular are kind of a specialty for you -- identifying them at least -- because P.E.I. Is home to many of them on its beaches. What kinds of mushrooms do you find there in the sand? What's hiding there?

KS: A fair bit. We're up to about a little over 100 species so far. That's three years of a planned five-year survey. We found some interesting firsts that we don't think have been identified or described yet. We've found some others where we're confirming records. Like, there was originally a wax cap mushroom that was found in Labrador. And until we found it again on P.E.I., that was the only known location. So, lots of interesting finds like that.

NK: What is it like in that moment when you when you feel not only you're seeing it in the sand, but then finding out it's a first

KS: It's great. I mean, it's all about learning. So, whenever you find something new, whether it turns out to be a first, or an undescribed species, or just something new to the region, it is new to you. So, really, that's the important part. You get to learn about it and explore it.

NK: And can you describe what a couple of them look like, some of your favourites?

KS: One of the favourites that we found recently was Sathurella epimysis. It is part of the Northeastern Refungi Challenge by Fundus, an organization that's for fungal conservation in the States. And it actually grows, it's a parasite, and it grows on top of the shaggy main mushroom, which is an inky cap. And so, it'll stunt its growth, stop it from going to ink, and then grow a new mushroom on top of it.

NK: Ah! It just keeps giving and taking, I guess, at the same time. [chuckling]

KS: Yeah, kind of.

NK: So, what's your personal count out of these 1,014 so far?

KS: 364 I believe. We'll keep going up as we we're starting to do a lot of DNA sequencing as part of a kind of effort. And so, we're sending a lot of specimens to the states -- about 1,400 -- to get DNA sequenced. And then, they get identified or assigned a provisional name.

NK: Clearly, you're a curious person, you love to be in the outdoors, but how do you go, because you do have a full-time job, this is a volunteer thing, this is a labour of love. How do go from appreciating fungi to being responsible for an atlas?

KS: I don't know. The more you learn, the more you get involved. Mushrooms are foundational, or fungi are foundational to our ecosystems. And we know very little about them in general, even less on Prince Edward Island. So, I partnered up with Nature PEI and Rosemary Curley, and we've been trying to bridge that gap.

NK: Do you think it will ever be complete, this atlas?

KS: No, no.

NK: That's the fun, I guess.

KS: Not for a long time, yeah. Well, there's probably around 3,000 species of macrofungi on Prince Edward Island. And we're only roughly at 1,000. So, there's plenty of growth. Plus, the atlas itself isn't just about the number of species. It's about spreading our observations across Prince Edward Island, so that we get a better idea of distribution and phonology from tip to tip.

NK: Ken, a pleasure speaking with you, thank you.

KS: Thank you very much.

CH: Ken Sanderson is the founder of the Mushrooms of PEI iNaturalist project. We reached him in Hope River, Prince Edward Island.

[folk]

FOA: VE Doc

CH: Today marks 80 years since the end of the Second World War: Victory in Europe Day, or VE Day. And to mark May 8th, 1945, the day Germany surrendered, ceremonies and commemorations are being held across Europe. But of course, Canada is also part of that history: one million Canadians served in the Second World War -- 45,000 Canadians died. In 1985, for the 40th anniversary of VE Day, " Karen Levine -- an award-winning radio producer and author -- made a documentary for As It Happens in which she talked to veterans about the significance of May 8th. Here's an excerpt.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: I was with the Number One Canadian General Hospital, and we were stationed in Nijmegen, and our unit served as a giant casualty clearing station. Most of us reacted practically the same way on VE Day. We were quiet. We were really awestricken, quite stunned, or subdued. The impact, I recall, of my brain was almost paralyzed. I was unable to comprehend the full impression of that announcement, while others got properly, [chuckling] and I don't blame them, they got properly squiffed.

MAN: I'm laying in a hospital at Watford, England, just outside of London, a nurse come running into the ward screaming and bellowing and happy. I wasn't too elated because the war was over for me the day I got shot, I think. But the ward I was in, which was Amputees and Stomach Wounds, the feeling, you know, you still had that thought you didn't know what the future was going to bring, you know, due to your wounds. I didn't want to come home on a hospital ship or on a hospital train and meet my family at the station in a stretcher. That's what I was more worried about than anything.

WOMAN #2: That day. I just didn't want to be in any of the festivities that might be taking place. I just wanted to be by myself. So, I was alone at that time with my children. That's all. And they wanted to know why their daddy was not coming back? You know, why didn't he get out of the tank and run? A lot of questions that I had no answers for.

MAN #2: All felt that going home was not just going home and being reunited with our families, which was of course paramount, but the belief that when we got home, things were going to be different, had to be different than what they had been. Those people who had joined up in the early days of the war, and who had been jobless during the Depression, were absolutely determined that those days were over, that things were gonna be better, no more bread lines, no more Dole. Everybody wanted the brave new Canada, everybody wanted the security, the democracy that we hoped, and that we believed at that time.

CH: From Our Archives, an excerpt from a documentary by former As It Happens producer Karen Levine, who spoke to Canadian Second World War veterans in 1985 -- on the 40th anniversary of VE Day. Today marks the 80th anniversary.

[sombre piano]

Mark Hiscock Obit

CH: For the first time in a decade, the East Coast Music Awards are back in St. John's. And yesterday, festivities kicked-off with a somber note -- as the Atlantic Canadian music community mourned the loss of Mark Hiscock -- a founding member of the much-loved folk band Shanneyganock. Mr. Hiscock died this week. He was 53 years old. He was a master of the button accordion and singer who was known for incorporating the province's long history of storytelling into his music. In recent years, as Shanneyganock played fewer shows, Mr. Hiscock returned to one of his first passions: going out on the water. In 2023, Mark Hiscock spoke to Gavin Simms in Bay Bulls about becoming a captain with O'Brien's Whale and Bird Tours.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK HISCOCK: Myself and my fiancee at the time, who's my wife now, we moved to Bay Bulls a couple of years ago. I was down talking to Joe one day on the waterfront down in Bay Bulls, and he said, you know, what's your plans? I said, well, I'm not really doing much during the week times. He said, why don't you come work for me? I was actually looking at Facebook, and I seen that you guys were looking for a bus driver. He said a bus driver, he's said, do you really want to be a bus driver? He said for our shuttles? I said, well, not particularly. But I said what were you thinking? And he said, I need captains on my boat. He said I'm short a couple of captains. So, he said, well, just go and re-write your ticket. So, he says I'll look after any expenses. So, I had to do my MED and my seafarers medical and all that stuff.

GAVIN SIMMS: What is it that you love about sitting behind the captain's wheel and, you know, heading out to sea?

MH: Well, I grew up in Fort Emmer, so I grew on the water. My dad always had a boat. I worked, like I say, I worked on the Skidemia for 16 years. So, you now, the sea is almost in my blood. You know, I love being behind the wheel. I like being responsible. It's a big responsibility, you're taking 100 passengers out. So, you know, myself and Joe always say we're carrying the most precious cargo in the world. You know, you can replace the container ship with containers, but you can't replace passengers. So, we always say, we're carry the most precious cargo. And, you know, I take the responsibility with a lot of respect for the ocean. And, I have always respected the sea. And I really enjoy having control of the boat. The boat doesn't control me, I control the boat, it's a great job. And you meet people from all over the world, you're meeting, every trip is a different trip, the weather changes, we could come back out and there's lots of puffins here on the island today, on this trip. We could go back out this afternoon and there won't be a puffin there, they'll be all gone off the sea, so every trip changes, and the sea conditions changes. So, it's always, it's always different, and every trip has its own challenges. And I almost feel like the boat is a part of me.

CH: That was the late Mark Hiscock speaking to Gavin Simms on The Broadcast in 2023. Mr. Hiscock died this week. He was 53.

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