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The AIH transcript for May 7, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Flight from fight response. After India attacks Pakistan and Pakistan authorizes "corresponding action", a journalist in Kashmir tells us the threat of escalation has people unsure what to do or where to go.

CH: Search me. American authorities in a Washington state border town inspect cars and question drivers heading toward Canada. A local lawyer says that might destroy whatever was left of the town's cross-border business.

NK: Spyware and tear. An Israeli cyber-intelligence firm is ordered to pay more than $230 million Canadian in damages, for surveilling hundreds of WhatsApp users.

CH: Your chance to pontiff-icate. While the conclave in session, Italians are guessing who the next Pope will be -- by playing a fantasy-league game called "Fantapapa".

NK: A true sensation about real sensations. A graduate student in Finland wins this year's "Dance Your PhD" contest with a powerful performance about the science behind of sensations such as burning, cooling, and tingling.

CH: And...villain the blanks. A British woman is given tens of thousands in compensation, after her colleagues filled out a Star Wars-related personality test on her behalf -- and declared her a "Darth Vader".

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that survives a near-Darth experience.

[theme]

Part 1: India/Pakistan, Fantasy Conclave, Dance Your PhD

India/Pakistan

Guest: Zafar Aafaq

CH: It was an act of vengeance that India says was "measured, responsible, and designed to be nonescalatory in nature." Pakistan doesn't see it that way. India has carried out strikes on nine sites inside Pakistan -- weeks after an attack on a tourist resort in Indian-administered Kashmir that left more than two dozen civilians dead. India blames Pakistan-based militants for that attack; Pakistan denies any involvement. Pakistani military officials say India's attacks killed more than 20 people, including several children. Pakistan's prime minister, Shehbaz Sharif, said five Indian military planes were shot down during the strikes. He also said that India, quote, "will have to suffer the consequences" of attacking his country. Zafar Aafaq is an independent journalist in Kashmir Valley. That's where we reached him.

NK: Zafar, you didn't just read or learn about these attacks. You experienced them firsthand. What happened?

ZAFAR AAFAQ: I woke up around 2 a.m. Indian time, and I live very close to the border, so I heard this exchange of fire. And I could sense that something is up.

NK: Normally, I know you're based in New Delhi, but your ancestral village is in the Kashmir Valley. You're visiting right now, and as all of this started. What did you and your family, or the others in the village, do during those attacks? How did you stay safe?

ZA: So, I was asleep in my room on the first floor. So, I got downstairs, knocked on the door where my mother and my sister sleep. So, I woke them up and I told them that I'm reading these reports and can you also hear? So, they also kind of got panicked and they hear those sounds of shells. And then, we assembled in one room on the ground floor and we also turned off the lights. We turned on the TV and we watched the news. But everyone was anxious and kind of terrified. We didn't know what exactly was happening, whether there was some shelling from the aircrafts, or was it exchange of artillery fire, was it simply some other sounds. We were not sure.

NK: And how has it been throughout the day? Have things subsided? Is it is it calmer? Do you feel safer?

ZA: Yes. So, around 5.30 in the morning, I think the sounds of these fire and shelling stopped. At the same time, we got a note about some of the shells during this exchange of fire have landed in villages nearby and people in those villages have been evacuated. This has landed close to homes and civilian areas in those villages and it has damaged some structures.

NK: I wanted to ask you about the damage, I don't think you've gone to those areas, but what have you seen in terms of the coverage of the kind of damage left behind?

ZA: So, I spoke with people who live in those villages and they are fear-stricken and they're panicked. But they also told me that some of the barns and small structures have caught fire and gutted. There were announcements on loudspeakers and public announcement systems asking them to safer places.

NK: We know India says the attack on Palagam at the end of April is why this is happening. They say this is retaliation, these strikes are retaliation. Were people there in your ancestral village bracing for something like this? Did they expect it, or did it surprise them?

ZA: I wouldn't say it surprised them. There was already tension in the air since April 22 when this militant attack took place. So, India had promised at that very time that it would retaliate and it would take some military action against the areas in Pakistan. The Indian government was giving those signals. So people were apprehending people, were apprehensive of something like this could happen in coming weeks and that's exactly what happened.

NK: We know Pakistan is denying any involvement in those attacks on April 22nd. Pakistan's prime minister, Shehbaz Sharif, is saying that Pakistan itself is fighting against terrorism, and called these strikes by India, quote, cowardly and, quote, an act of war, unquote. What kind of response do you think there will be from Pakistan?

ZA: It's hard to kind of guess. During day, there was reports that Pakistan government officials have held meetings and they have said that they will they will give a befitting reply to these strikes. But then there was statements which kind of signaled some reconciliatory approach, and they are saying that they would stop here and they would ensure that if India doesn't escalate, then they would also kind of hold back. But then there were also statements that they have to respond to these strikes in the same manner.

NK: I wonder what you think about how this moment compares to what happened in 2019, the violence and escalation that happened then?

ZA: 2019, I think that was after very long that India fighter plans went into Pakistani territory and claimed to have conducted strikes in an area called Balakot. But it was something new, or something which the people had not seen for a long time. But this time, the nature of attack -- militant attack -- in Pahalgam, it is different. It has a different shock and emotional value. And the strikes that India conducted, it's not like Balakot when only one place was hit. This time, India claims to have conducted strikes in nine places. Pakistan says that India has targeted civilian areas in six places. But the situation is that tension is still prevalent in the air and it might escalate. So, it is that way larger in scale. It has some similarities, but it's also a bit bigger than what we saw at that time.

NK: We know the United States and Qatar have called for de-escalation, but what would it take, who would need to, which country holds the most sway and would be able to actually make de- escalation a reality in this moment? What needs to be said and done?

ZA: The United States definitely has, President Donald Trump has, a role here if they engage with both Pakistan and India and press a bit harder on leadership of both countries. I think it would definitely help to de-escalate maybe quicker and to a position where the violence doesn't escalate and it remains within limits. I think the U.S. definitely has a bigger role here.

NK: Given what else is happening in the world, other international conflicts and how they have unfolded, what are the analysts there saying, if anything, at this early stage, about whether this is seen as a moment where these kinds of things can escalate because of what is unfolding elsewhere?

ZA: Experts are kind of that way worried. In, I think, Russia-Ukraine war we saw that Russia invaded Ukraine, their plans and violated the sovereignty of that country. Then, we also saw what is happening in Middle East and West Asia where Israel and Hamas have engaged in, I think, it's now been more than a year when that war started and we don't know what is the end to that. It kind of makes this violence also look kind of normal in some ways. But then there are also worries that both these countries are nuclear-armed. And if they engage in war, we don't know what it entails and where we are headed.

NK: Zafar, I appreciate your time. Please take care. Thank you.

ZA: Thank you. You're welcome. Bye.

CH: Zafar Aafaq is an independent journalist in Indian-administered Kashmir. That's where we reached him earlier today.

[sombre piano]

Fantasy Conclave

Guest: Mauro Vanetti

CH: And now, we wait. Today the cardinals sequestered themselves in the Sistine Chapel to elect the new Pope. Since the death of Francis, people have been speculating about who might replace him as head of the Catholic Church. So, it may not surprise you to learn that in Italy -- the home, of course, of the Vatican -- some tech workers have actually invented a fantasy league to guess who will be chosen. Then again, it may surprise you. We reached Mauro Vanetti, one of the creators of Fantapapa, in Pavia, Italy.

NK: Mauro, the doors are shut, your game is closed, how are you feeling?

MAURO VANETTI: Yeah, excited. I was relieved because I was very worried that some technical problems might emerge at the last minute. But everything worked. And now, all the predictions are frozen and we just wait for the news.

NK: Okay. Like the rest of the world, obviously. What is the energy like in Pavia? Obviously, we're seeing and speaking to a lot of people in Rome, but what is it like there as the conclave finally begins?

MV: Well, yeah, people are very interested and curious about what's going to happen. I don't know how many conclave geeks are around, like I am.

NK: Conclave geeks!

MV: Because I've been following everything, [chuckling] even the previous times, checking everything and watching TV. I never watch TV, I only watch TV during conclaves.

NK: Why are you so into conclives?

MV: I'm fascinated intellectually by the whole process. And I also believe it's important to understand politics. I'm very much into politics. And even though I'm not religious, it has a lot of consequences on the life. So, it influences and affects world events in a significant way. And particularly, this is true in Italy.

NK: So then, why make a fantasy league like the kind we see, you know, for Eurovision, or, of course, sporting events? Why make one for cardinals?

MV: Basically, because the conclave has some similarities, which is ironic and a bit funny. So, we wanted to play with this idea that somehow there's something similar there. And also, everyone knows that there are a lot of political maneuvers going on in the conclaive. And, you know, the election of the pope might be seen as a very religious and pious event, but it's also kind of a power grab in a way.

NK: There are also people though, as you as you likely know, because this is so important to them and we're talking about matters of faith, people who are critical that you would do this at all. What do you say to those people?

MV: Yeah, I can imagine that. I actually didn't notice much of a criticism here. We even had a few priests playing the game and contacting us. [both chuckle] And they seem to take it quite ironically without minding too much. But yeah, I mean, we've been careful not to be offensive towards the religious feelings.

NK: So, in a sports fantasy league, obviously you'd be picking a team. I think you can also pick players within those leagues. But how does Fantapapa work? Are they just picking ranking cardinals?

MV: Yeah, in a fantasy football game, all the players can score points during the actual game. While in the conclave, there's only one winner, [chuckling] as everyone knows. So yeah, of course, you want to have the elected pope in your team, so you have 11 chances to guess, but you have to place him in the captain position if you really want to score 1,000 points. And the other cardinals score points just by being mentioned on the mass media.

NK: Let's talk about some of the top contenders -- these captains, as you call them. Cardinal Zuppi, tell us about him.

MV: Yes, Zuppi is leading the captain's list, let's say. Zuppi has some chances in the real world as well, but we believe that he was overinflated in the game just because he is the archbishop of Bologna and he's very likable, [chuckling] he's a nice guy. Parolin is closely trailing him. Parolin, is the secretary of state, so he's the head of the government of the Vatican, almost powerful as a pope. And he might be a, like, transitional pope, like a compromise name. And then, the third name, which by the way is the one I voted for, I chose as my captain is Luis Antonio Tagle, who's from the Philippines. He will be the first Asian pope and the first pope from a third world country. And he's considered a progressive. So, my guess was that if he gets elected, he will choose the name Francis II.

NK: But what you're hinting at there, too, is that there are other aspects of this. Not just the captain, you have to, you know, how many days it might take to get this, how many times they're going to see black smoke, what names they might choose. So, there's other ways for players to get points. There's one other name that caught our eye. I mean, who knows if they'll be selected, but Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa might win for best name. [chuckling]

MV: Yeah, yeah, Pizzaballa. I mean, he has some chances. Okay, he's the Patriarch of Jerusalem. [chuckling] The name sounds like, I don't know, a fake Italian name from a video game. But this surname exists in Italy. And there's even a football player who's called Pizzabballa. Actually, they are related, which -- [chuckle]

NK: That might help. That might help. Who knows? It's a beautiful name, to be fair. And, obviously, the pope gets to be the pope. What does the winner of Fantapapa get?

MV: The winner of Fantapapa doesn't get anything material. And we wanted to be very clear about that because we're also anti-gambling activists. And I like it very much that we ended up doing a betting game, [NK chuckles] but a no money betting game. So, the only prize you win is eternal glory. Yeah, we want to give this person eternal glory because, clearly, he or she knows a lot.

NK: Yeah. And it's worth noting as she -- a woman -- could win this one. We know they can't in the actual conclave.

MV: Actually, I hope that. Because particularly something about Italian men, they, or should I say we, tend to be very arrogant about how good we are at predicting events. Like, oh yeah, I know who's going to win the football match, or I know this, I know that. You know, it's a typical know-it-all attitude that's very, very typical of Italian males. So, I would really like a woman to win this. [chuckling] Apparently, from social media, we have the feeling that at least half of our players, but I guess the majority of our player might be women for some reason. And so, that would really be good if one of them is the winner.

NK: I like your take on this, Mauro. I like your take on this a lot. We'll see what happens. [MV chuckles] And, I mean, who could resist a shot at eternal glory? It all sounds great. I'm glad we could speak, Mauro. Thank you.

MV: Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you.

CH: Mauro Vanetti is the co-creator of the pope guessing game Fantapapa. He's in Pavia, Italy. And you can read more about Fantapapa -- and the conclave -- on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[elevator music]

Dance Your PhD

Guest: Sulo Roukka

CH: If you're a scholar, looking to share your ideas with the world, you need to find a way to stand out. A PhD entitled "Insights into oral chemesthetic perception: A focus on food-related behavior” is...okay. But it doesn't have quite the same razzle-dazzle as this:

SOUNDCLIP

[a dance song about taste science]

CH: That's Sulo Roukka. He's a food scientist at the University of Helsinki -- and the winner of this year's "Dance Your PhD" competition. The annual competition is run by Science magazine. And it challenges PhD holders or candidates to explain the concepts of their studies through the magic of dance. For his PhD - and his video -- Mr. Roukka studied, and sang about, chemesthesis. That's the sensory perception of chemicals on the skin, and in the mouth, which leads to sensations like burning, cooling, and tingling. We reached Sulo Roukka in Helsinki, Finland.

NK: Sulo, congratulations.

SULO ROUKKA: Well, thank you.

NK: Are you still dancing?

SR: Very funny! Yeah, I'm currently dancing [both chuckle] here in my bedroom, like, doing some twirls and twisties.

NK: I've seen the video. Our listeners heard a little bit of it there, but can you give them an idea of what it looks like, what the, I mean, if we can call it that, the storyline is.

SR: At first, they will see some lab teaching that has some energetic, chemesthetic dance twist at the end. So, I believe that it's an interesting combination of science meets the dance.

NK: I mean, how long did it take to come up with the concept?

SR: At first, one of the directors of our doctoral school recommended to me to participate in this amazing dance competition. And I was familiar with the past year's entries. And, unfortunately, I had no budget here to do this, but then I decided to ask my friends to join me.

NK: It looks high budget, I will say. The video looks very high budget.

SR: Yeah, it looks, but it was actually, like, I didn't have any additional budget. So, I did an open call through Instagram for my friends. And one of my friends who was familiar with the pop culture in Finland got excited about this idea about combining the science and art. And then, we designed the dance video and the lab teaching. Then, we went through the song about my thesis with some creative friend that is familiar with music. And then, we just started playing around and hitting ideas through. And Sampo also gave me some kind of, like, interesting comical twist that we could add to it, like the tear-away pants that you might see in the video.

NK: Yeah. [laughing] And the turning into a chili pepper, also just another twist.

SR: Yes, it's not a twist. Like, actually, one of my friends Teemu Muurimäki, who is a fashion designer for Eurovision, styled our dancers into cool, cool, cool disco look, and he made me look like red chili pepper. And I totally felt like Kylie Minogue in the Padam Padam video in that. [both laugh]

NK: That was a must, so not a twist. I hear what you're saying. You're a huge Kylie Minogue fan, yes?

SR: Yes, of course! Like, who isn't?

NK: I'm with you.

SR: And, basically, in the university coffee room, when we got through the dance video plan and the song, then although I have a passion for dance, I have limited dance skills. So, we actually, my colleagues recommended me to find dancers and hidden message to students who produce musical theatre and there are six wonderful dancers joined me. And they designed an awesome choreography together.

NK: It is great choreography. So, how long did it take you to make this video and how much did it cost in the end?

SR: For filming the video it took four hours. And most of these were done pro bono, so a couple hundred euros for dancers for their time. And, of course, some coffee, but it was kind of like everyone was doing this free willingly.

NK: Let's talk about the other very important part of this, the science and the word, chemesthesis.

SR: Yes, of course.

NK: Tell our listeners what exactly it is.

SR: Well, I study human sensory science and food, and I'm curious about how we perceive and experience food through our senses. And most of you might be familiar with the chemical senses such as taste and smell. But the chemesthesis, what it is, it's a chemically-activated somatosensation -- tactile sensation, actually -- that different chemical compounds can stimulate our somatosensory nerves. And then, activate neurons. And then, the chemesthetic information then conveys into our somatosensory cortex area of the brain where that perception is produced. And then, you might feel different kinds of sensations such as the burning sensation from capsaicin that can be found from chili peppers or the cooling sensation of the menthol that is sensation that we can perceive from mint. And also, there's this sensory sensation called astringency that is the mouth-drying sensation that you may feel from tannins found in wine or tea.

NK: There is a tiny bit of controversy that we need to address, and that is from Frida, your cousin's daughter, who is a huge fan of yours, but not so happy that she wasn't cast in the video. How did you tell her that you'd won?

SR: Well she was not surprised because I played the song before we actually filmed the video. And when she saw the video first time, she loved the dancers and the signing outfits. And then, she was not happy because she didn't get in. But I promised her that if I ever do a second PhD, she will be first dancer to join.

NK: Okay. She's six years old, we should mention. [laughing]

SR: Yeah, six years old. Full of fashion, and perhaps she might be a future doctor, who knows.

NK: Well, we hope she gets to do whatever she wants to do. Do you think you do a sequel? Are you gonna do another PhD?

SR: [chuckle] I'll take that into consideration, but I think this has been the one PhD thesis is perhaps enough. But we'll never know in life what happens.

NK: [chuckle] Anything is possible. Sulo, I appreciate your time, thank you.

SR: Yeah, thank you.

CH: Sulo Roukka is the winner in the chemistry category and the overall winner of the annual Dance Your PhD contest. We reached him in Helsinki, Finland.

[R&B]

Darth Vader Suit

CH: If someone compares you to this guy, I think it's fair to feel somewhat insulted.

ADMIRAL TARKIN [more like Admiral Failure, amirite?] Lord Vader, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we’re preparing to --

LORD: VADER: You have failed me for the last time, Admiral.

CH: I mean, just talk to the guy; there's no need to choke him to death with your mind. And do any of these remarks make it seem like he'd be a good hang?

[a montage of very evil quotes from my dad, Lord Vader]

CH: If you're thinking, "cut him some slack, he's just very interested in a thing he calls 'the Dark Side'", then please consider that this is his theme music.

[The Imperial March by John Williams/Classic]

CH: My point is: Darth Vader is bad. Not to mention the kind of pompous dork who, when you ask him a question during a presentation, will reply, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." So, I agree with a British employment judge: it's mean for your colleagues to compare you to Darth Vader. In a recent ruling, this judge wrote, "Darth Vader is a legendary villain of the Star Wars series, and being aligned with his personality is insulting." And that's why a tribunal awarded Lorna Rooke the equivalent of around $53,000 Canadian. As part of a team-building exercise at her job at the NHS, everyone took a Star Wars-related Myers-Briggs personality-type questionnaire. But Ms. Rooke stepped out to take a phone call. And when she returned, she found that one of her colleagues had done the questionnaire on her behalf -- and announced to all that she was a Vader. It could have been worse: she could have been a Jar-Jar. But she was still sufficiently hurt that it was one of the reasons she left the job a month later. And the judge ruled that she was right to find it offensive. Look, we've all worked with someone who breathes like this:

[sounds of the finest mouth breather of a galaxy far far away]

CH: But that's no reason to go to the dark side yourself. Ultimately, those NHS employees should have believed in Ms. Rooke. And I find their lack of faith disturbing.

[ambient]

Part 2: Peace Arch Checkpoint, Meta/NSO Suit

Peace Arch Checkpoint

Guest: Len Saunders

CH: "Children of a common mother." That's the slogan emblazoned on the Peace Arch, a monument celebrating the historic friendship between Canada and the United States. It stands in a park that straddles the Washington State-British Columbia border, and is operated by both countries. But at the nearby Peace Arch border crossing in Blaine, Washington, the tone is a little different. Since late last week, American border patrol officers have been running a checkpoint, searching cars and questioning drivers heading north, before they reach the Canadian border crossing. The operation has backed up traffic and caused significant delays. And it has some people in Blaine worried that it will further deter Canadians from visiting the border town -- which has already seen a 50 per cent reduction in car travel from Canada compared to this time last year. Len Saunders is an immigration lawyer who has practiced in Blaine, Washington for over 20 years. We reached him there.

NK: Len, have you encountered this at all? Have you crossed the border since all of this started last week?

LEN SAUNDERS: Last Thursday, around 5, I was heading over into Canada to have dinner. And I noticed that the traffic was backed up way down into Blaine. So, my first reaction was, well, there must have been an incident at the border, it's closed down, something's happened. You just never see traffic like that midweek. It was traffic chaos! So, what customs and border protection had done was they had set up outbound checkpoints leaving the United States on the freeway. Now, I've seen these before. But normally, it's because, you know, there's like an amber alert, of there's a fugitive who's going north and they're trying to catch. What was different on this occasion was whether it seemed like every single car, they were checking. And from people who went through, they told me it could take five minutes each car. They went through the engine and had them pop the hood, went through to the trunk of the car, asked the people questions. So, it's a very thorough interrogation.

NK: And did you go to dinner, or did you forego all of this?

LS: No, I never went up.

NK: Yeah.

LS: Because I thought, I'm not going to go up to Canada, wait for an hour or two in line just to have dinner. But I've never seen in my 25 years of practicing such constant border checks going north. And what's interesting is Peace Arch and Pacific Highway is the third busiest port of entry on the northern border, it's the busiest west of Detroit. And what's really ironic about these outbound checks is there's very few Canadians coming down here right now. Where I work and live in Blaine, it really is a ghost town. So, my first reaction was, what are they trying to do here?

NK: Well, we reached out to U.S. Customs and Border Protection. They gave us a statement. It doesn't specifically address Blaine, but describe these outbound inspections as, quote, routine, and a, quote, vital tool. Have you been able to dig up from your contacts there why they're doing this at these particular crossings?

LS: Well, to begin with, I don't think it's routine because I've never seen them do this in 25 years. But what happened was, I actually spoke to a local officer yesterday. He goes, it's the new APD. So, the APD is short for Area Port Director. All of these ports have port directors, and then for the Blaine sector, which is south of Vancouver, which is where I am, there's one main port director. Until recently, our area port director was a local gentleman who grew up here. And so, he knew, you know, how the borders operated and was familiar with Canadians coming down grocery shopping and getting gas and stuff. Well, I guess he'd been temporarily reassigned over to Buffalo, so they brought in an acting area port director from San Diego. And my first reaction was, oh no! Obviously, this new acting area port director had no idea how it's so different on the northern border.

NK: If there was a targeted operation, would these be justifiable in your view, this kind of checkpoint?

LS: Well, I could understand if they're doing it at all the ports of entry, right? Because it's only two of them. There's four or five other ports of entry in this area. And it's only at our main two. So, I don't know how they can have it targeted. Yes, I understand if there's an operation that they're trying to do, there's some tactical reason. But, you know, for them to say that these are routine, they're not routine. I haven't seen them have checkpoints more than one day in a row for my whole career in Blaine. So, I don't know if this is a sign of the times to come, if most Canadians now are going to have to get used to these outbound checks. But for them to say it's routine, I don' know where they're coming from. So, my hope is that these routine checks go away because it's scaring away the very few Canadians who are still coming down here. Most Canadians don't want to come down here. And if they do still come down and get gas or go grocery shopping, the last thing they want to do is sit in an outbound check for an hour or two, while they aimlessly check everyone's car. It's just, it's a lack of common sense. And for them to say it's national security issue, these are people leaving the country. The Canadians should be more concerned about who's coming into Canada than the Americans who's leaving the United States. It's almost like a make-work project for officers. Maybe they're not busy enough inspecting people entering the United States because there's so few. So now, what they're gonna do is they're going to inspect everyone leaving, too. It just seems like a colossal waste of time.

NK: And if it were to end tomorrow, would that help? Or do you think the damage is done from where you sit in terms of people wanting to --

LS: Oh, the damage is definitely done, right? Because everyone hears about this in Canada, right? It started with the rhetoric from the president, and then went on to the tariffs. The low Canadian dollar doesn't help. It's one thing after another. It's like the perfect storm has been created that has deterred Canadians from coming down here. I understand as a Canadian citizen. I'm a U.S. lawyer. I live in the U.S. But I understand as a Canadian citizen, if you're not going to be buying U.S. booze on the shelves of Canadian liquor stores, you're going to not be coming down here to spend your money. And the Blue Jays game, which is this weekend down in Seattle with the Mariners, which is historically sold out for years and years and years, other than during COVID, when Canadians couldn't come down, I hear the stadium is maybe a third sold out. So, Canadians are making their decisions with their pocketbook. And they're not spending money or traveling to this country due to the current situation.

NK: That Peace Arch crossing, that monument, is a beautiful one. It celebrates the relationship between Canada and the United States. As our listeners heard, the slogan on it, children of a different mother. How does that slogan sit with you? How does it feel?

LS: Well, it says, may these gates never be closed. Well, I think there's an invisible wall going up. There's an invisible wall that Canadians do not want to come down here. And I get it. I understand it. I don't like driving around my town here, Blaine, and seeing no Canadian cars. You go through the gas stations, there's no cars. And if there is one, it's a U.S.-plated car. For all practical purposes, there is no Canadians coming down to our town, which is sad.

NK: Len, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

LS: Have a great day. Thank you very much.

NK: You too.

CH: Len Saunders is an immigration lawyer in Blaine, Washington. That’s where we reached him.

[standing bass!!!!]

Meta/NSO Suit

Guest: Natalia Krapiva

CH: Its targets have included criminals and suspected terrorists. But also human rights defenders, student activists, lawyers, journalists, diplomats, and heads of state. Before Saudi journalist and dissident Jamal Khashoggi was assassinated in 2018, clients of the Israeli cyber-intelligence firm NSO Group used its Pegasus spyware to surveil a number of his close contacts. And in 2019, WhatsApp alleged that NSO had targeted 1,400 of its users, by exploiting a bug to install Pegasus on their devices. Now, a jury in California has ordered the company to pay $168 million dollars U.S. in damages to WhatsApp’s parent company, Meta. And Natalia Krapiva is hoping the verdict will mark a turning point. She's the senior legal counsel for the digital civil rights nonprofit, Access Now; she helped prepare an amicus brief highlighting the cases of some of the people targeted in the WhatsApp breach. We reached her earlier today.

NK: Natalia, WhatsApp was able to confirm, as you know, that at least 100 of its users who were targeted by NSO were, quote, human rights defenders, journalists, and other members of civil society, unquote. You spoke with some of those folks directly. What can you tell us about who they are?

NATALIA KRAPIVA: Yes. So, in fact, I spoke personally with a few of the victims of the hack, of the WhatsApp hack. And from what they told me is that they were profoundly impacted by this hacking. Their sense of security, privacy, their professional and personal lives have been profoundly affected. Some of the victim that I spoke to are, there's a couple are from Morocco. So, there's Moroccan journalist -- Abu Bakr Jamai -- he's a Moroccan journalist, and now he moved to France. He lives there. And he learned of his targeting while already being in safety, but he did say that it profoundly affected his work. He's now an academic, and it really hurt his ability to talk to his professional contacts, to his family, because of the fear that their communications may be surveilled. We also, I also spoke to Fouad Abdeloumi, he's a Moroccan human rights activist. And his work with Human Rights Watch and Transparency International, he has been also affected by this. He felt severely violated by this targeting. And he mentioned that there was intimate images of him were released online. He's not sure whether that's related, but they face a lot of harassment and threats from the government, and this is really within that context.

NK: Is this, ultimately, a win for privacy as so much of the coverage of this court decision has framed it? Is this a win for privacy?

NATALIA KRAPIVA: It's definitely a win. It's a huge consequence that we haven't really seen before for spyware companies and especially for NSO group that has been really notorious in this space. It's really something that is unprecedented. And, I think, will affect not just this company but also the spyware industry as a whole.

NK: In the end, the case did hinge more on the technological maneuvering, rather than those specific cases that we were talking about. Does that make a difference to you?

NATALIA KRAPIVA: I think it's something that, initially, we really wanted to make sure that the victims' stories and the civil society's stories are part of this case. But I think, at the end of the day, because the trial was then focused, again, mostly on NSO's conduct, and there was really no opportunity for NSO to also attack victims and try to discredit them and say that, oh, maybe they're criminals, maybe They deserved it. The jury could only, they really looked at basically what NSO did, not what the victims may have done, right? And not also on the conduct of the clients of NSO who, you know, because NSO kind of tried to argue that, well, you know they were doing legitimate investigations and so on, but this was really what was important is what did NSO actually do in this case?

NK: NSO, and those who support NSO, say that this software is designed and principally used to surveil alleged criminals. The Wall Street Journal was reporting that at least one person in the whatsapp breach was someone who had been involved in suspected terrorist activity. What do you say to those who say that that surveillance can be an important public safety tool, and that a verdict like this might undermine that kind of surveillance?

NATALIA KRAPIVA: Well, it can be a tool for public safety and security, but we have to remember that the cases that we have profiled, that we investigated, are, in fact, journalists, activists, human rights figures, dissidents. And the surveillance against them goes against U.S. and other countries’ laws, and these are the technologies that we all rely on for our day-to-day communications for our professional, personal lives. So, the way that they undermine the security of all of our, you know, communications, this is something that really makes us all, in fact, less secure and less safe. And so, it's not just about sort of privacy versus security. It's privacy and security that is really on the line when we're talking about these kinds of hacking technologies.

NK: NSO says that it is going to appeal this verdict. There are, as you well know, many alternatives to NSO and its Pegasus software. So, what needs to happen beyond a verdict like this, whether it stands in the end or not, that similar vulnerabilities aren't exploited in the future?

NATALIA KRAPIVA: Definitely, there are other companies. Paragon is another spyware company that's been selling similar technologies. And we've heard that their technology was abused in Italy, used against journalists and activists. So definitely, we wanna see more. We want to see more regulation of these companies, more transparency to make sure that this technology is not as easy to abuse. So, it's really a great victory, but we also want to see more from states and from sort of national and multilateral efforts to really make it difficult for companies like NSO and others to break the law and just abuse human rights with impunity.

NK: Natalia, I appreciate your time. Thanks for coming back on the show.

NATALIA KRAPIVA: Thank you for having me.

CH: Natalia Krapiva is senior legal counsel for the digital civil rights nonprofit Access Now.

[ambient]

Katisha Paul

CH: For years, Katisha Paul has dedicated her time to making sure young Indigenous people are heard. Ms. Paul is currently the youth representative for the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs. And now, she's been elected as one of the co-chairs of the UN's Global Indigenous Youth Caucus. So, she's taking her skills and perspective to the world stage.

SOUNDCLIP

KATISHA PAUL: It is quite the honour. I feel very happy to have this international platform to be able to amplify the youth voices globally.

GLORIA MACARENKO: And so, what does this role entail?

KP: Well, within the next year, we're going to be creating the Global Indigenous Youth Forum. It's originally held in Rome, Italy, in October. But we will be pushing the date back to June of 2026. And that is hosted with the Food and Agricultural Organization. And our job there is to be able to bring youth from around the world to speak on issues such as food sovereignty.

GM: I see! So, that's one forum for you as well, but you are a voice to represent youth. What have you been hearing from young Indigenous people?

KP: As I go around in these spaces, I'm constantly hearing of the greater need for enhanced participation for Indigenous youth. For our voices to be recognized, heard, and amplified as knowledge keepers. As Indigenous peoples, we have this great ability to have clear connections to the waters and the lands. And our job as Indigenous peoples is to be a witness to what the lands and the waters are needing. And we have to be able to be pulled into these conversations with leadership. And here in Canada, that looks like tables within the provincial and federal governments, municipalities, to speak on what we believe to be the right direction.

GM: So, I'm just curious about your own journey to get you to this place. Tell me about where you grew up and how these kinds of issues became so important to you.

KP: I moved around at least 23 times in my life here in B.C. And as a young girl, it was important for me to ensure that people know who we are as Huamukh Mesdimukh, as people of the land. I advocated for our rights through our culture and our languages, especially as a young woman. I didn't necessarily see people that look like myself in leadership roles. And back in 2022, I was elected as the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs' youth representative. And from there, the union has done their job to amplify my voice and put me into spaces that I never could have imagined possible.

CH: Katisha Paul is the youth representative for the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs. She was talking to Gloria Macarenko, host of On the Coast.

[folk]

Ford: Premiers Call

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: Well, I just always say united we stand, divided we fall, and that was my message today. And let's let's continue making sure that we unite the country, not divide the country. And I spoke, you know, spoke pretty strongly in support of Alberta and Saskatchewan because they've been ignored for the last 10 years. They've been treated terribly, to be very frank. And I think the new prime minister -- Prime Minister Carney -- understands that. And he's going to just be out there, having great conversations. And just the move, just that one move, bringing FMM out to Saskatchewan, that's a big move. So, everyone congratulated him on how he performed. It didn't matter what political stripe we came from.

REPORTER: Were there any discussions on breaking down inter-provincial trade barriers?

DF: Yeah, we did. We actually had that discussion. He said by July the 1st. But I said, you know, let's all the premiers, let us get together, at least sign all the MOUs. So, you know, who is coming up in the batting cage, PEI, Saskatchewan? Hopefully, I just texted Scott right now and said, hey, let us sign that deal. Even Danielle, we are texting back. And she wants to sign an MOU, too. So, you know, we do get along, by the way, just to let you know. We text each other. Quebec, you know something? I think Premier Legault is working on something right now. But I really encouraged Premier Legaut to get that pipeline through Quebec. The last poll I saw was in the high 70s that people want that pipeline. So, it's going to help the entire country. We don't have to be so reliant on the U.S. This is a game-changer now. This is an opportunity to build ports in the North, no matter if it's through James Bay, or through Manitoba up there in Churchill. That's what we have to do to protect our country. We also have to get minerals out of the ground, not just here in Ontario, right across the board. I think the date that we're always looking for is, we have to get permits before two years and start moving. That's right across the board for the territories and for the other provinces that have critical minerals.

CH: Ontario Premier Doug Ford speaking to reporters earlier today.

[lofi]

Part 3: Mr. Deepfakes, Veteran Chronic Pain,

Mr. Deepfakes

Guest: Eric Szeto

CH: He's a pharmacist at a hospital. He's also a key figure behind the world's most notorious websites for AI-created, non-consensual porn -- known as Mr. Deepfakes. That's what the CBC News visual investigation unit has uncovered about David Do -- in an international collaboration with investigative outlets Bellingcat, and the Danish sites Politiken and Tjekdet. And that website's name describes what's inside: it showcases deepfakes, fake images or videos of real people that have been digitally modified -- using their real faces, or bodies. The site has now shut down for good. Eric Szeto is a CBC journalist with the visual investigations unit. He joined Nil in our Toronto studio.

NK: Eric, I think a lot of people are familiar with the concept, the idea, of deep fakes and are already worried about how sophisticated those have become. But this website in particular, the scale of it might surprise a lot people. Can you just tell our listeners how big it was, how it was working?

ERIC SZETO: So when you talk about deepfake AI porn, this was the most notorious website online. It housed about 70,000 videos at its peak. Those videos are viewed about, I think over 2.2 billion times. And we looked at forum posts that actually had, and you can see the members on the side, 650,000 people members.

NK: And just in the screen grabs on your story, in your story, some of the people featured there's pictures of what are purported to be very famous people, you see those, but certainly it's not only famous names.

ES: Its main kind of MO at first was, we're focusing on celebrities. There's these arbitrary numbers of how many followers they might have in order to justify why you could make a deep fake porn of with these people. But when we dug further and we kind of, you know, peeled the onion back a bit more, we discovered that it's regular people, anyone. And I think that's the scary part is that it can actually happen to anyone. But there's a woman we spoke to -- Canadian YouTuber, Sarah Zed -- and she's from Vancouver. She definitely does not have a following of Taylor Swift or anyone like that, right? And when we revealed to her that we had found her images and videos there, you know, she said, because she considers herself a private person, even if she has a YouTube page, she still considers herself a private citizen. She said it's a slippery slope. Like, it's really humiliating, psychological damage, emotional damage, right? Like, a form of control over someone, which is a kind of interesting thought.

NK: Because she's choosing what she puts up on her YouTube page. This is totally taken out of your hands and distorted, obviously. Was it just people with some sort of online presence that were being deepfaked and put on this site?

ES: In terms of regular people, we did see on the forum, and we don't know what the details of this, but people saying, I'd like a deep fake of my partner. I want a deepfake of my girlfriend. We don't if it's consensual. We don't know if they're paying money for this. I think they actually did say in one of the forums, you know, I've private messaged you. We can talk about rates, willing to pay, that kind of stuff. So, whether that went up on the website or not, I can't tell you because there's just so much up there, but there were definitely in the forums you can see that there are just people, regular people, girlfriends, wives, that people would want videos of.

NK: In terms of the monetary gain from a site like this, what were they making?

ES: There's money being made. There's advertising, creators, if you request, say, whoever, they would say here's a charge for it. There's money in that respect. But what we actually found also is that how we kind of pieced together David Do and some of the pieces and his usernames, and maybe he had posted on different forums, he talked about how he was having trouble because there were so many people coming to the site that it was slowing down the website. And amidst of some of those posts, he actually talked, or this user, we should be more specific, this user, talked about how they made about $1,000 to $6,000 U.S. dollars a month. And it doesn't seem like much, I guess, but that was early on in, I think, 2018 or 2020. So, there was money being made. But to say, you know, how much this person made ultimately yearly, we don't know.

NK: This started with a tip that you got from investigative teams at international outlets who said, hey, there's this person, David Do, he might be Canadian. That's when you and your team step in. What did you do to connect the dots between this website and Do?

ES: It was a really, actually, a great collaboration with our international partners. So, Bellingcat is kind of the biggest open-source investigative outlet in the world. And these Danish outlets as well, they actually were able to determine there's this David Do person that keeps coming up. And when another media partner comes to you with an investigation or with research already, we independently verify it as well. Like, I think there's just a level of verification we need to do to feel comfortable running with especially a private citizen or, you know, a person like that. But we looked up and helped with finding public records, verifying, called the hospitals that he worked at as an inpatient pharmacist, went there, and confirming. Like, we needed those other bits of public records data online just to kind of, and in-person stuff as well, just to confirm and make sure that we had the right person.

NK: And you found him in-person.

ES: We did.

NK: How did that conversation go?

ES: We actually tried speaking to him for many weeks, emailing, calling him, dropped off a letter just to make sure he knew that we were trying to talk to him. And he never responded. Several weeks in, we saw him coming in his vehicle, and we jumped out and we tried to approach him and talk to about his role, why he does this? And all he could say really was, I don't wanna be recorded, I'm too busy right now, which is kind of ironic saying I don't wanna be recorded, and he just drove away.

NK: One of the things that's important to underline, and it certainly comes up in your coverage as well, is that making these kinds of non-consensual images is not a crime in Canada. So, when we know deepfakes have increased dramatically over the last few years, your report found that certainly, what kinds of conversations are there going on at the highest levels to change that, to protect people?

ES: I don't think you could ever stop it. It's become ubiquitous. It's so easy to do. It's free. Like, you can file a lawsuit, you can write civil suits, but there's always gonna be someone else, or someone else is gonna create an image of you. The most effective, or at least in theory, is having a federal ban on this. And in some countries like the U.K. And Australia and Denmark, and there's a growing number of countries, it's actually illegal now to share this type of content, non-consensual, deepfake porn. What was interesting, though, during the election campaign was Prime Minister Mark Carney now, or back then, he had mentioned and talked about how they were gonna make a law to outright ban non-consensual, deepfake porn -- the creation and sharing of it. So, you know, as for a timeline for when that's gonna happen, we don't know, the government just came in, of course, but it's on the radar.

NK: And David Do, after he drove off, after your story has come out, do you know anything else about what has happened to him and his other life?

ES: We actually don't know what has gone on, but we did contact his employer, and we did talk contact the College of Pharmacists in Ontario and explained to them what was going on. They both told us that they're investigating this. But as of right now, they're just investigating, and we've been told they're investigating.

NK: Eric, I appreciate your time. Thanks for coming into the studio.

ES: Thank you.

CH: Eric Szeto is part of the CBC News visual investigations unit, which looked into the Mr. Deepfakes porn website. He was in our Toronto studio. And you can learn more about exactly how that team tracked down the key person behind Mr.Deepfakes, at: www.cbcnews.ca.

[ambient]

FOA: Francis Pope

CH: As you know, there's a lot of anticipation in Rome right now, over the naming of a new Pope. But even after a cardinal is elected to that position, there's still the question of what name he'll decide to use as pope. In 2013, when Jorge Mario Bergoglio became Pope Francis, people felt a range of emotions. But very few people felt the exact type of surprise experienced by a Toronto man As It Happens spoke to the day after the big announcement. Here's our former host, Carol Off, talking to financial advisor Francis Pope about Pope Francis's choice of name.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCIS POPE: Well that was probably the greatest shock because I don't think anyone's ever picked that name before. And then, number two, given my surname and my first name, I said, oh no! Now, i'm gonna have to put up with all this ribbing from all my friends and acquaintances. But hopefully, it'll be my fifteen minutes of fame and that'll be it.

CAROL OFF: [chuckling] Do you think you're going to get a lot of jokes every time you present your name?

FP: Yes. I mean, you get that anyway with the surname that I have, you know, a surname like Pope. But this will just be worse in, I imagine, the near-term. And then afterwards, I hope it'll peter out.

CO: Do you think your mom and dad knew what they were doing when they named you Francis?

FP: I think it was a very safe bet back then because they were all, you know, John Paul or names like that, so they weren't going to lumber with anything too difficult.

CO: No one's ever going to be Pope Francis. That's a safe one.

FP: Well, also, you know, my mother's French, my father's English, so they always try to pick names that could translate into both languages. So, I have that going for it as well.

CO: Is your family Catholic?

FP: We are Catholic on top of everything else, yes. [both laugh]

CO: I figured as much. Now, are people treating you any differently. Has your life changed in the past 24 hours?

FP: No. outside of abuse from my friends, I can't be wearing red shoes or anything like that.

CO: And is your wife worried that you're going to start waving from balconies and traveling around in a special car?

FP: No, no. There's no Popemobile for me. [CO chuckles] That's what we used to call the van when he would stuff all the kids into it, you know?

CO: But I understand you are getting a lot of LinkedIn messages and people trying to connect with you that you've never heard of before.

FP: Yeah, that was the first thing that happened actually. You know, I work in the financial services business. So, of course, we have all the televisions on, so we heard the news right away. And then I noticed all these emails coming in of people wanting to link up on LinkedIn, all these names I'd never heard of. So, I suppose just the search engines doing their work, you know? But it's calmed down this afternoon already. So, I imagine by tomorrow, we'll be back to normal.

CO: Do you think there's anything you can do to let people know that you're not Pope Francis?

FP: Yeah, I suppose the only thing you could say is, you know, we are in the financial business and not the religion business.

CO: [chuckling] You're a financial advisor, not a spiritual advisor. But is there some irony in that? That you, I mean, you know, you have this connection with Pope Francis? You're both advisors.

FP: Well, we're both advisors and and and we should be fair sort of a similar name, but that's about it, you know? I wish him the best of luck. It's a tough job that you're taking on and I'll just leave it at that.

CO: But that's not the only link. The Toronto Star newspaper has put the two of you side by side.

FP: Oh, I haven't seen that.

CO: And if they'd put a cut line saying separated at birth, I think people would believe it. [FP chuckles]

FP: No, I don't think there's any connection there. [both chuckle] But anyway, it makes for a good story.

CO: Well, take a look in the paper because, you know, maybe it's something you can do. Maybe you can be a stand-in.

FP: Yeah, I think they can do better than me, but anyway. [chuckle]

CO: But think of all the travel you could get.

FP: Yeah, well, the free trips to Rome. I mean, Peter Mansfield really scored on that one. And I don't know why you didn't get that trip, but anyway. [chuckling]

CO: Don't go there, all right? But then you could at least, [chuckling] if you were the stand-in, you could travel around in that car and not in the family van.

FP: Yeah, exactly. I don't think I'd want that job. But in any case, I'll go back to being anonymous, you know, in the near future, and that's the way I like it.

CO: Well, if we need a stand-in for Pope Francis, we'll call you.

FP: All right. [chuckle]

CO: Francis, good to talk to you. Thanks

FP: It was very nice talking to you.

CO: Bye-bye.

FP: All right. Bye

CH: From Our Archives, that's our former host, Carol Off, speaking to Toronto's Francis Pope in 2013, after Pope Francis became head of the Catholic Church.

[ambient]

Veteran Chronic Pain

Guest: Pascale Marier-Deschênes

CH: Members of the Canadian Armed Forces can go through a lot on the job. But once they leave active duty, Pascale Marier-Deschênes says they can face another challenge -- chronic pain. And, more specifically, a lack of support to deal with that pain. Ms. Marier-Deschênes is trying to change that. She's Laval University's new education leadership chair on awareness, self-management, and well-being for support for veterans and their families. It's a new post and project funded in part by the Chronic Pain Centre of Excellence for Canadian Veterans. We reached her in Quebec City.

NK: Pascale, you were already working on a platform to try to help people deal with their pain, and then you came across veterans. What did you see among veterans that left you concerned?

PASCALE MARIER-DESCHÊNE: Well, I was concerned first by the fact that I thought, I assumed that they already had access to resources tailored to their needs. And I, well, I figured out that it wasn't the case and it got me interested. And then, through conversations with veterans, but also with colleagues and health care providers, we thought of a set of resources we could create to raise awareness, training, support, and self-management as well.

NK: I think a lot of people like you would be surprised to know that there wasn't already something in place for veterans. In those conversations, what did veterans tell you about what they were experiencing?

PMD: Well, they do experience chronic pain. And they do experience it in a lonesome kind of way. So, they feel left out. They feel like they are not necessarily supported as much as they thought they would after serving their country. They feel like the military culture they bathed in kind of brings them more struggle. This culture promotes mission before self. So, it's a mindset. It influences how they express their pain or not, in fact. And how they tend to suppress it for a longer time than when we compare this with civilians.

NK: And it sounds like, I mean, there is a lot of overlap, I would imagine, between civilians experiencing chronic pain and, and veterans. But from what you're saying, all of those realities of being in the military deepened or exacerbates those experiences, yeah.

PMD: It does. It brings them to deny or minimize physical pain, or even to avoid seeking mental health care that can overlap with their chronic pain. So, they will just live with it. They don't trust, necessarily, the system as much as we would do among the civilian population. They also face the same challenges as would civilians. So, long waitlists, for example, not enough specialists, and limited support. So, we really thought this could be helpful to have online resources that they could use any time, anywhere they want, when they are ready to address those issues.

NK: And so, how does your platform work? How will it help them specifically?

PMD: We will co-develop the self-management program for chronic pain with them. I'll give you an example, in the strategies we promote, activity pacing, do a little bit more activities to focus on being a little more active if they weren't before. With veterans, we are aiming at doing the contrary because they are so used to pushing through pain. So, we'll try to have them do a little bit less, most probably. So, when they will connect to the program, they will be offered different self-management strategies. So, we can think of mind-body activities like breathing, relaxation, mindfulness, things like that. And also, paying attention to their sleep habits, or to what they eat, even. And all these strategies that they can try one by one is accompanied by some testimonials from veterans who are already applying self-management strategies.

NK: And that helps them feel that they can be understood. That someone who's experienced what they have experienced is getting this help.

PMD: Exactly.

NK: I know your project also looks at medical professionals. What specifically do you try to teach those professionals so that they can help veterans better?

PMD: We want to bring them to better understand the military culture first. And then, to have an idea of what the psychological and social impacts of service are. And how to offer cultural competent care. So, this program will include interactive French language models, at first, that we will, most probably, integrate into health-related courses at Laval University. But we will adapt them for practicing professionals so that these professionals can access them as part of their continuing education, particularly those working in civilian healthcare settings. We know that they are all likely to encounter veterans in their practice, even if, well, they don't necessarily realize it. Veterans won't necessarily bring it up unless they are asked. And just asking the simple question can make a difference. Like, are you a veteran? Or have you served in the Canadian Armed Force? So, small steps that can open the door to more tailored and respectful care, I guess.

NK: Pascale, I'm glad we could speak, thank you.

PMD: Thank you so much.

CH: Pascale Marier-Deschênes is the education leadership chair on awareness, self-management, and well-being for support for veterans and their families at Laval University. We reached her in Quebec City.

[indie rock]

Crime Reporter

CH: Jeremy Hainsworth spends his workdays covering Vancouver's courts. But recently, the crime reporter went to court for an altogether different reason: to get legal help for the abuse he's received from a subject he wrote about in a news story two years ago. Now, his harasser has been given a restraining order, set for 12 months. Here's Jeremy Hainsworth talking about the ordeal -- and why his concerns aren't assuaged by that year-long reprieve.

SOUNDCLIP

JEREMY HAINSWORRTH: Right now, I was hoping this would all be over. And now, I'm feeling apprehensive again because he seems to think he can start again in a year, is what I heard in there. After I wrote about him, he came by my office. He was aggressive, a threatening stance. I did not engage. I went back inside. Then the emails started. My story was end of March 2023. On May 11, 2023, I received an email that said he hoped we all died terrifying deaths, and that he wanted to watch. That left me terrified. I faced a lot of harassment, a lot vile comments, emails, threats, being spat on, having my tires slashed, but I've never had what I perceive to be death threats. I know a lot of journalists in this province who have been unconscionably abused, in many cases by what I would call keyboard warriors. These people are cowards who rarely step out from behind their computers and feel completely free in sending threatening, horrific, abusive emails to people who are just doing their jobs. All too often in this society, people like to attack the messenger. That's what journalists are. We're the messengers. If you don't like the facts of a situation, then go to the source of the facts. Don't go after the journalist. We're human beings. We hurt. We bleed. We have emotions. And things like this are extremely painful and horrible to go through. I don't necessarily hope that it will catch up with him. What I honestly hope is that this man accepts the help that he clearly needs. I've made mistakes in my life, and I can have compassion for people who need some help.

CH: That was Vancouver crime reporter Jeremy Hainsworth talking to CBC Vancouver outside the courthouse.

[pop rock]

Mini-Update: Buddha Jewels

CH: On last night's program, we told you about the Piprahwa gems -- a collection of garnets, pearls, and gold found mixed with some of the cremated remains of the Buddha. It’s a priceless collection that was set to go up for auction in Hong Kong today. But a lot of people object to the sale, and have demanded the auction be stopped -- including academics and the government of India, which sent out a legal notice to Sotheby's. Here's some of what art historian Naman Ahuja told Nil yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

NAMAN AHUJA: I don't know if you can put a price on and sell off the relics from a casket which was inscribed, which Sotheby's itself has stated that this is the most important archeological discovery of Buddhism, and this is nearest you can get to the body of the Buddha. It's rather like asking that can you monetize and for the sake of all Christians put the body up for sale? Or for the sake of all Muslims, can you put relics of Muhammad up for sale, or something like that?

CH: And Sotheby's listened to that message. The auction house has now postponed the sale and issued a statement that reads, in part, quote: "This will allow for discussions between the parties, and we look forward to sharing any updates as appropriate." Unquote.

[folk]

Bear Spray Gallery

CH: Carrying bear spray when you're in bear country is a great idea. Dropping it is not a great idea. Especially when you're indoors. That's what happened at a sports store in Whitehorse on Friday. And simply dropping it might have been okay -- except that it landed on the exposed pin of a security tag, which punctured the can -- releasing the lung-searing, eye-scalding substance, and sending customers fleeing. Kelly Wroot is a manager at Arts Underground -- an art gallery located beneath that sports store. He and his colleagues were getting ready for an opening when -- as Mr. Wroot told CBC Yukon's Andrew Hynes -- he began to sense something wasn't quite right.

SOUNDCLIP

KELLY WROOT: Wow, things started literally feeling a bit off when I stepped out about 15 minutes, tried to step out, excuse me, about 15 minutes before the opening to check on our signage and just get a breath of fresh air. [chuckling] And it was funny because, um, the building owners had been painting our stairwell that evening, or throughout the day. And I got about halfway up the stairs and I noticed a very caustic sensation that I was not expecting and suddenly could not breathe. And I ran back down the stairs thinking that the painters had perhaps spilled a chemical of some sort. So, I rallied and decided I needed to go get a better look. So, I held my breath at the bottom of the stairs and ran up. And as I passed the door to Sports Experts upstairs, I noticed the floor was bright orange. And there was one of their employees just outside the main doors, putting up a sign, so I opened the door and gasped, what happened? And she said bear spray. [laughter] So, I ran back downstairs. And my eyes were, at that point, absolutely burning and watering, and my lungs were not responding in the way one hopes they would. And my colleagues were starting to tear up a bit. And, yeah, and then it turned out an entire canister of bear spray had been discharged on the floor upstairs, and that's what that feels like.

ANDREW HYNES: Yeah, like, what do you do in this situation, I guess? What did you do?

KW: Well, I mean, you gasp and you cough and you wheeze and you try not to touch your eyes. And we had no idea, really, what to do. I think, at first, we thought we could rally the situation and have people come in through the back door. So, we closed our front doors and tried to carry on a bit, but as the first people came in through the back, they too began to feel the amazing, amazing stopping power of what is a canister of bear spray. And we decided it was in everybody's best interest to cancel the event with great disappointment.

CH: Kelly Wroot is an art gallery manager in Whitehorse. He spoke with CBC Yukon's Andrew Hynes on the program Airplay.

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