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The AIH transcript for May 6, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Face to face, but not quite eye to eye. A former Canadian ambassador to Washington says that, despite his bluster about the 51st state, when Mark Carney visited the White House, the president seemed to respect the prime minister.

CH: From bad to worse to worse. The head of a British charity supporting Palestinians tells us he's trying to stay hopeful, despite Israeli plans that promise to make life for civilians in Gaza even more dangerous.

NK: Zero compromise on zero tolerance. As cardinals gather in Rome to choose a new Pope, a survivor of sexual abuse tells us now has to be the time for the Catholic church to make things right.

CH: It's a free country; well, right now, it's a free province. But we hear from an activist who believes Alberta should be its own country -- and is confident a referendum would deliver just that verdict.

NK: The needles and the damage undone. During the NHL playoffs, an Edmonton Oilers fanatic is crocheting emotional support chickens… yes, chickens --

CH: Obviously.

NK: Obviously, for her fellow stressed-out fans -- in the hopes that her handiwork will unknit their brows.

CH: And...thrust into the limb-light. We'll cuttle up with the cuttlefish --

NK: Awe!

CH: Which science suggests is using its many flexible arms to communicate in some kind of sign language.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio that's also available as a cephalopodcast. [NK chuckles]

[theme]

Part 1: Carney/Trump: McKenna, Gemma Hickey, Oilers Crocheter

Carney/Trump: McKenna

Guest: Frank McKenna

CH: It was the meeting Canadians have been anticipating, and dreading, for weeks -- a sit down at the White House between the president and the prime minister. And Donald Trump's opening line to Mark Carney was promising.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: His party was losing by a lot and he ended up winning, so I really want to congratulate him. He was probably one of the greatest comebacks in the history of politics.

SOUNDCLIP

CH: You can hear President Trump agreeing there -- but then, later, he added this.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Never say never, never say never.

CH: The talk about Canada's sovereignty was mixed in with talk from President Trump about the key issue for Canadians -- trade. He said he would not drop HIS tariffs. And that America didn't need Canadian cars, steel, or aluminum. Frank McKenna is Canada's former ambassador to Washington. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Frank McKenna, in the end, would you say this is a good day for Canada?

FRANK MCKENNA: Yeah, I think it's a real good day. The fact is that Trump has had the stage all to himself these last number of months, saying some of the most blatantly outrageous things that a world leader has ever said about another country. And this was our chance to respond. And I thought it was terrific that we had a prime minister elected in a very recent election with a dripping wet mandate who can go and sit in the Oval Office and say that our country is not for sale, not now, not ever.

NK: It sounds like you think then that he struck the right kind of balance between asserting himself and Canada's sovereignty, but also appealing to this president.

FM: Yeah, you know, you're asking a really important question because there's no right answer as to how you treat a president who has proven to be very erratic. You know, everybody is conscious of a Zelenskyy moment when the entire world was embarrassed to watch what took place, or even a Stammer moment where it would appear that he was excessively obsequious. So, I think our prime minister was looking for the balance of being respectful. I'm in somebody else's house, but I'm not being obsequious. I'm not there genuflecting. I am not there on bended knee. I'm there as an equal, the leader of a sovereign country.

NK: Prime Minister Carney spoke at a news conference and told reporters that he asked the president at their private lunch to stop talking about Canada as another state, but he did not say how Trump responded. Do you think that that rhetoric is going to actually stop?

FM: Look, again, it's hard to know what this president, but it may. You know, we could elevate the debate if we wanted to. Obviously, Canada is not for sale, nor has anybody in Canada an interest in joining the United States. But Alaska's indicated by a margin I think of up to 36 per cent that it would consider separating from the United States. And one might want to mention somewhat mischievously that Alaska would fit in beautifully. It'd be like a piece of a jigsaw puzzle. It's joined to canada's, it's not joined to the United States. And wouldn't it be lovely if Alaska could join Canada? I think that uh... President trump might stop pretty quickly and talking about breaking up countries if he heard that his own country might be vulnerable.

NK: Trade was obviously at the top of the agenda. And the prime minister did take issue with what the U.S. president was saying on that front. We'll play that for our audience.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: I'll say a word on USMCA if I may, Mr. President. It is a basis for a broader negotiation. Some things about it are going to have to change. And part of the way you've conducted these tariffs has taken advantage of existing aspects of USMCA. So, it's going to change, there's other elements that are coming, and that's part of what we're going to discuss.

NK: Knowing what you know about these kinds of conversations and closed door meetings, what do you think was said about trade behind closed doors?

FM: Well, I think they would get right into the nitty gritty of what Prime Minister Carney said. Because we have a binding agreement, we had a binding agreement on NAFTA, and the president tore it up and negotiated what he said was the best deal ever. And now, he's tearing it up. And even though it's still a binding the agreement between three sovereign nations, he's breaking it at every single step. Steel and aluminum is in breach of it, the auto Tariffs are in breach of it, the so-called fentanyl tariffs are in breach of it by declaring an emergency, or declaring it a critical economic interest. He's just making a total mockery of the agreement that we have signed. So, Prime Minister Carney's dead right. If we're going to have an agreement with the United States, we've got to figure out how it can be enforced and how it could have integrity so that somebody can't take advantage of it every time there's a whim. So, I thought it was important to set the record straight there. Look, if we're going to have a deal, let's have a deal.

NK: What Canada did not get, so far, is an assurance that tariffs are going to go away. In fact, Trump said he's not dropping the tariffs. And said he does not want to see Canada making cars, or selling steel or aluminum to the United States. So, where do things go in terms of negotiating with the White House? Is there still room and time to get those tariffs dropped?

FM: No, absolutely. I think we have a litigation track going as well, and we should. What the president's done is in breach of the law. But just let's take the two things that you've mentioned. Aluminum, we supply 70 per cent of America's aluminum. They cannot compete. We have access to low-priced power to hydro, and we will continue to supply the United States with aluminum, similarly with steel. We'll continue to provide some of their steel. In the case of autos, the president has got to get his facts straight. We are not taking autos away from the United States. We only supply about 10 per cent of the autos in North America. But we have 40 million people. We drive cars too. We're entitled to have autos manufactured in Canada. So, if the president says all the autos in the U.S. have to be manufactured in the United States, which would be dumb, does that mean that every car that's driven in Canada needs to be manufactured in Canada? If so, why would we allow somebody in the United States to produce autos and ship them to Canada? Remember, we're a big market in our own right. We're the biggest buyer of U.S. Goods by a wide margin, bigger than most countries in the European Union put together. So, we do have bargaining power. We do have leverage here.

NK: Just before we let you go, you know, I asked you about the words that Mark Carney used in this meeting that we've heard from him today. What about the word Donald Trump was using to talk about and flatter our Prime Minister? Was that a tactic?

FM: Yeah, but I think it was probably somewhat genuine. And I thought that was one of the really good news items out of the meeting, the fact that the president of the states was respectful to our leader. You know, there's something strange when we have to say respecting another leader is a highlight. [chuckling] It should not be. But in the case that we're dealing with at the present time, I would say that would be one of the highlights of the day.

NK: Frank McKenna, I appreciate this. Thank you.

FM: And thank you.

CH: Frank McKenna is the former Canadian ambassador to the United States. He's in Toronto.

[R&B]

Gemma Hickey

Guest: Gemma Hickey

CH: It's an extremely secretive process which the world will be watching closely. Tomorrow, dozens of Catholic cardinals will shut themselves inside the Sistine Chapel to begin the process of choosing a successor to Pope Francis. And as media and conclave-watchers descend upon the Vatican, advocates are also showing up -- with a message. Survivors of sexual abuse by clergy are in Rome right now -- urging the cardinals to put the issue at the forefront of their decision-making. Newfoundlander Gemma Hickey is among them. They're the board president of the international coalition Ending Clergy Abuse. We reached them in Rome.

NK: Gemma, you traveled to Rome with an ultimatum, a call for a moral reformation. What kind of response have you received so far?

GEMMA HICKEY: Well, you know, right now, we're just targeting bishops and cardinals, trying to get the message out, and it's an uphill battle, you know? Now, the organization I represent, Ending Clergy Abuse, has been working with theologians from the Pontifical Gregorian University to revise canon law. We launched those revisions last fall, and we're hoping to present them to the pope, but he passed away. So, we're basically having to start over. So, you know, honestly our message here is: stop prioritizing predators over protecting children. And so, that's why we're here and that's the message we're delivering.

NK: And, obviously, I can only imagine you and those you work with would not be there, would not travel to Rome, if you didn't think there was a possibility for change. Clearly, that hope and that work is still there. But deep down, do you think it will happen?

GH: You know, I'm cautiously optimistic. You know, I think that whoever they choose as pope will determine the tone going forward. We can only be here and try to get our message across and hope for the best, and take it from there once the pope is elected. You know Pope Francis, he made efforts, but what he did was not, they're not being implemented. So, that's the issue. I mean only a pope can change canon law.

NK: And you have a list as part of the ultimatum, and in the news release you put out what survivors are demanding now. There are five things on this list, but at the very top, a universal one strike and your out law. And the second, mandatory reporting to civil authorities. Tell us why those two are at the top of your list.

GH: Well, we want the church to implement a zero tolerance policy. And in 2002, the U.S. bishops called on the pope to make that change for them in canon law, and he did. And it's, basically, a one-strike and you're out policy. So, if you abuse a minor, you are automatically removed. And we want that applied globally. And so, we're getting some pushback from conservative bishops. As an example, African bishops. We can look at the age of consent as 18, but there's some pushback there about girls who are 14, who are able to marry. These are the types of things that we're getting from people. You know, that we are not being culturally sensitive. We are being culturally sensitive because we're hearing from people on the ground. So, you know, it's really important to have this policy applied globally. And that's what we're working on. So, we do have some representation here from survivors from other parts of the world. I just flew in a survivor last night from Peru. You know, their stories are so heart-wrenching. It's just that we really need to keep the pressure up. So, last week, we sent an open letter to the College of Cardinals, and we've been working with other survivor groups as well to hold events here on the ground.

NK: That survivor from Peru, you know, how are they feeling being in Rome? Obviously, many people are there for the conclave, or there for the funeral. They all come for different reasons, but how are they feeling?

GH: You know, just skeptical, vulnerable, angry, triggered, all those things come up. I mean, there's so much religiosity around here. Where you look, it's here, you can't really escape it. But it's important for him to be here, and we're supporting him, and finding ways for survivors like him to be able to speak out and have a platform. And by holding protests and having meetings with church officials. You know, we're just doing what we can really to keep the pressure on and to call the church to task and to do the right thing. They haven't been doing that, they haven't shown that they can police themselves. And that's why it's important to have investigative bodies that are independent of the church so that they can be held to account.

NK: And if the kind of change and reformation that you and others are pushing for does not come and does not come soon, obviously that has an impact on survivors. But more broadly, what's at stake if that change doesn't come?

GH: Well, so many things are at stake, really. Our lives, you know, how many have we lost to suicide, to addiction, as a result of trying to escape the pain of the past. You know, I've sat with men who went to Mount Cashel. It was notorious in St. John's for abuse by Christian brothers. And they're in their 80s now, and many of them still haven't received compensation. They're in the process, but how many years? You know, how many years do we have to endure that time gets taken from us? You know, it's survivors that serve a life sentence. Many of the people that abuse us, they don't see any jail time. They get to retire and move on with the rest of their lives. And we live in a prison of memory. And the wound keeps getting opened time and time again because of the mismanagement of this crisis. It's a global crisis, and this church needs to really do something different about this because lives are at stake. And, you know, the sad thing about this is that this whole, like, a lot of the abuse could have been prevented had they just handled it appropriately in the beginning. You know, don't move people around that are a threat. They have the information there. You know, just do something different.

NK: Gemma, I appreciate your time, as always. Please take care of yourself. And thank you for your time.

GH: Thank you. Thank you so much.

CH: We reached Gemma Hickey in Rome.

[ambient]

Oilers Crocheter

Guest: Ashley Sinclair

CH: The NHL playoffs are a tense and tumultuous time for hockey fans of all stripes. The highs are thrilling, but the lows are exhausting and punishing -- and the constant toggling between high and low can cause something akin to the bends. But as teams head into Round Two of this year's Stanley Cup showdown, one hockey lover has just the thing.

SOUNDCLIP

ASHLEY SINCLAIR: Do you cheer for a high-character team that refuses to play with a lead? Can your nervous system not tell the difference between being on the penalty kill and being attacked by a bear? Does the phrase goalie interference send you spiraling to a PTSD flashback? If any of these resonate with you, you might need an emotional support playoff chicken, made for the best fans in the world by a fellow tortured soul.

CH: Ashley Sinclair is a TikToker, an Edmonton Oilers fan, and a self-proclaimed "tortured soul" who is crocheting emotional support chickens for her fellow fans -- and whose inbox has been blowing up ahead of tonight's first Round Two game against the Las Vegas Golden Knights. We reached her in Sherwood Park, Alberta.

NK: Ashley are you going to be clutching your very own emotional support chicken when the Oilers take to the ice tonight?

ASHLEY SINCLAIR: I am so lucky I'm now making them en masse because I think I'm going to need all the emotional support chickens I can get.

NK: Just an entire couch full of them, your lap covered in them.

AS: Yeah, me and 40 chickens just watching the game.

NK: [chuckling] Why chickens?

AS: This is a pattern that was actually done by an Ontario designer a couple of years ago. It came out and just took the crochet community by storm -- Oak and Marlowe, based out of Ontario. And, yeah, so, the chicken pattern was popular. They're emotional support chickens. And when I thought of emotional support and where I needed it in my life, my hockey team definitely requires that.

NK: Yeah, the tortured soul, I mean, I really heard it in your TikTok video. You're feeling this, and I think a lot of people are feeling it with you. But what do your chickens look like?

AS: So, they're about palm size and, like, have a nice, like, crochet gives it a nice tactile finish. And they're weighted with 97 grams of poly pellets. That, of course, representative of number 97 on the Edmonton Oilers, Connor McDavid. And that was just kind of my little extra tie-in for my emotional support chicken having that extra connection to the team that I'm cheering for.

NK: So many layers of meaning. You really thought it through.

AS: Oh, you think that's crazy?!

NK: I don't think it's crazy. [chuckling].

AS: Well, no, the empty chicken shells weigh 29 grams, which, of course, is Leon Dreisaitl's number.

NK: Of course.

AS: So, yeah, they're just a great little weight to have beside you. You can toss them around or throw them in the air, and yeah.

NK: Poor chickens being tossed in a rage across the room. [both chuckle] So, I want to unpack some of what you said in that TikTok video.

AS: Sure.

NK: When you say, do you cheer for a high-character team that refuses to play with a lead? Tell us more about what you mean.

AS: I mean, okay, so I first really fell in love with this team in their playoff run in 2006. And you look at how that series started, they made it into the playoffs by the skin of their teeth. We were matched up against the President's Trophy winner in round one. Nobody thought we were going to do anything. And then, after, like, two double overtime wins, we go and close the series in six. And if that wasn't an introduction to exactly how this team seems to play across generations of players, like, that's it. Because you fast forward now. Last season, we came back from an impossible three-nothing series deficit to make it to Game 7 in the Stanley Cups Final. We start off against L.A. [chuckling] down two in the series. And then, close out in six again. It's just, they seem to always find a way to come back from the impossible. And even last year in our regular season, before that deep playoff run, like Connor McDavid said, like, this team came back from the dead and then made this all the way to Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final. And I think as an Oilers fan now, after 20 years of watching them do this, it doesn't necessarily get easier, but you now have this kind of context of like, okay, this is what they do.

NK: [chuckling] So, you're a little bit used to it now, but you still need emotional support, as do other fans, as we've been saying. How are they looking to you this time around?

AS: I mean, of course, I want them to go all the way. I think they have playoff experience now that they haven't had before, and that's something that was missing from the team. We've been perennial contenders over the last seven years. And, like, of course, I believe that this is it, this is our year. And I can't wait to see what they're going to do over the next series.

NK: How long does it take for you to crochet one of these chickens?

AS: So, start to, like, finish -- packed and ready for pickup -- is 40 minutes.

NK: Oh, so that's a good little project. I can attest to the, I'm a very small scale; I haven't actually made anything real. But crocheting can be, the act of crocheting, can be soothing and calm you down, let alone holding the finished product. But what kind of response have you received?

AS: Since I posted that TikTok video on April 30th, so that was, like, last Tuesday, we've received over 100 orders and have confirmed orders for over 300 chickens.

NK: So, is it relaxing at this point, or just another job?

AS: [chuckling] Honestly, it's so exciting. And it's just, this is now something that I've recruited four other crocheters who are helping me create these like chicken shells, and then I'm finishing them all. It's brought in a tonne of excitement to see a handmade item kind of take spotlight during the playoffs like this. And it's just, like, so fun. [NK chuckles] Like, this is essentially my dream job. So even if it gets crazy, like, who does this?

NK: Has the team reached out?

AS: No, not yet. [chuckling] They're busy right now. They've got a lot to focus on.

NK: Right. [laughing]

AS: So, I'm happy to just be on the sidelines and ride this wave, yeah.

NK: If you suddenly see them all clutching these on the bench. [chuckling]

AS: I would die. Yeah, like, if that's something the team decides they need, I can absolutely accommodate that. But, yeah, it's been crazy.

NK: And so, I mean, whatever happens in this playoff run, do you feel like this is a win for you?

AS: For me, I'm going to remember this time in my life forever. It's been unreal that this is happening. And, yeah, if everything disappears tomorrow, which we still have a whole series, but it would be, like, it's been insane. I'm so grateful to have been able to do any of this. And the response has been incredible, but that doesn't surprise me from the fans of the Edmonton Oilers.

NK: I'm really glad we could speak, Ashley. Thank you.

AS: Me too, Nil. Thank you for reaching out.

CH: Ashley Sinclair is an Edmonton Oilers fan who is crocheting emotional support chickens [Nk chuckles] for her fellow fans. We reached her in Sherwood Park, Alberta.

[calypso]

Cuttlefish Talk

CH: If we lived underwater, we'd have to change our lifestyles a bit. For one thing, we'd need to develop gills, or else we would only live as long as we could hold our breath -- which would make it hard to form lasting friendships, or play Monopoly. And we'd eat a lot less bread. If you've eaten a sandwich underwater, you know what I mean. And we'd also need a whole new method of communication. If I tried to tell you about a cool fish I'd seen, it wouldn't go great.

SOUNDCLIP

[CH talking underwater, this is… not great]

CH: Obviously, we'd have to find some particular way to communicate using our unique traits. Like the cuttlefish has. You know the cuttlefish: squid-like critter with eight arms, two tentacles, W-shaped eyes, three hearts, a siphon, an ink sac, and an ability to change colour. They're a lot. But what they mostly are is arms. So, it's not that surprising to learn that -- according to a new study -- they use those arms to communicate. The scientists focused on four particular gestures: "up", in which the cuttlefish extends two arms upward while twirling its other arms together; "side" in which it curls all its arms off to one side or the other; "roll", in which it tucks all their arms under itself; and "crown", in which it presses the tips of some arms against the tips of the some other arms. It's clear that all these distinct gestures mean something, although it's not clear what. And what's also amazing is that those arm waves make waves in the water -- which could mean that cuttlefish can feel each other's gestures as well. So, there's a lot still to learn about what all of this behaviour means, but it really seems like cuttlefish have underwater chit-chat down. And when they want each other to do something, it seems like they just twist their own arms.

[folk]

Part 2: Israel Gaza Expansion, Alta Discontent,

Israel Gaza Expansion

Guest: Steve Cutts

CH: The situation for civilians in Gaza is already incredibly desperate and dangerous. Now, it appears to be on the brink of becoming even worse. Yesterday, the Israeli government announced plans for an expanded ground offensive in the territory -- and a proposal for the militarization of aid distribution. And in the meantime, Israel's months-long blockade on food, medicine, and all other essentials to the territory persists; Gaza's Health Ministry says some 60,000 children are now showing signs of malnutrition. Steve Cutts is the Interim CEO of the U.K.-based charity Medical Aid for Palestinians. We reached him in Lewes, England.

NK: Steve, what are you hearing from your colleagues on the ground in Gaza about Netanyahu's announcement and these plans?

STEVE CUTTS: Well, I think the first thing to say is that ever since the ceasefire, you know, was broken by Israel back in March, people on the ground have been living more and more desperate lives with the aid and the food embargo in place and the lack of fuel going in. So, people are getting fairly desperate and there's starvation on the ground. And this isn't some accident of a drought or whatever. This is starvation used as a weapon of war. So, I think these announcements add massively to the fear and the concerns of people. It was desperate when they'd gone through the months of hope of the ceasefire to have that withdrawn. And now, they're facing the threat of being uprooted yet again and moved into ever smaller areas, which sounds very much like ethnic cleansing. So, I think people are unbelievably worried following those comments.

NK: There have been other comments as well, shocking statements. And we've heard shocking statements before, but there have been more now from the far-right finance minister in Israel saying that the Gaza Strip should essentially be destroyed in its entirety. And that people who live there, quote, leave in great numbers to third countries, unquote. We've heard some international response. But what kind of action do you think will realistically come from the international community to what we are hearing?

SC: So far, I mean, the first thing to say is that given the situation that they’re being forced to live under, and the action that's now planned against them, I'm not sure that anybody could claim that people would leave Gaza voluntarily. They're being coerced to leave. With respect to the international community, of course, thus far, we in MAP have been unbelievably disappointed by the reaction of our own government and a number of other governments in not putting maximum pressure on Netanyahu to stop this carnage. There must come a point, I think, when governments -- even the most blinker governments -- should be seeing what is happening here and should now be condemning in the strongest possible terms. We think that it's vital that the international community demands an immediate and permanent ceasefire. We think it's right that all arms sales should be stopped to Israel. And there should be full accountability for what's happened under international humanitarian law, and pressure put on Israel to lift this siege immediately.

NK: Netanyahu has also proposed this idea of militarization of aid distribution in Gaza, suggesting that the current aid delivery system could be replaced with a system where all the deliveries go through hubs that are controlled by private security contractors and the IDF. What would that mean for organizations such as yours? Would that actually help anything?

SC: No, that wouldn't help anything. This is a kind of, again, further weaponization and militarization of aid. They will be seeking to effectively use survival rations to destroy resistance. We don't know the full details of this. But we, the United Nations, all other NGOs are rejecting this. You know, aid should be impartial. It should be given freely. It should flow smoothly. And this flies in the face of all of this.

NK: The U.S. president, as you know, is set to visit the region next week. Are you hopeful at all that this president, this administration, might say something, pull some levers?

SC: I mean, we always have to hope because the United States, of course, is the country that has the most influence and can actually make Israel do things and stop doing things. So, I hope while he's in the regions he receives very strong representations from other Arab states to really point out that this is simply unacceptable. You know, thus far, I think it's been very disappointing that the first days when President Trump came into power, the ceasefire was put in place. Which was, of course, a great triumph for him in many ways. That, of course, has been unilaterally ripped up by Israel. So, I would certainly hope, and If I saw President Trump, I would urge him to actually say, you know, you're triumph from coming into office is effectively ripped up by this. But, of course, he needs to remove himself off his own positions. Because he's been talking about Gaza with this somewhat disgusting idea when people are lying dead -- more than 51,000 now are lying dead -- that Gaza will be turned into the next Riviera and almost seen as a real estate deal. I think he needs to be moved away from that position as well. And I'm just hoping that when he does visit the region that there are countries who do have influence with him and with the United States who put maximum pressure on him to take a different line than he's taking currently.

NK: And because the line he's taking in terms of aid, he was repeating claims that aid that did make it into Gaza was being taken by Hamas. Is that something your organization has actually had to contend with?

SC: No. I mean, I have to say, we've been, we are very careful and we work closely, we actually work closely with COGAT, the Israeli COGAT, to ensure that our aid does not ever get diverted to Hamas. Of course, nothing's been allowed in since early March. But when it was being allowed in, it really wasn't being diverted. And one can't help thinking that this is an excuse to take more control and to move forward with the other aims that Israel has for Gaza.

NK: Sean Carroll, the CEO of the American Near East Refugee Aid Organization, is someone you and others have recently co-signed an open letter with calling for unfettered humanitarian access to Gaza. He wrote a piece, an op-ed, in the New York Times today. He writes in part, quote, this is the moment of moral reckoning in Gaza. And asks, will the world be complicit in Gaza's collapse, or part of its recovery? Unquote. What do you imagine is going to happen?

SC: I think that in years to come, many people will look back with shame at the fact they did not speak up, and they turned a blind eye, and they went along with the dehumanization of Palestinians. And many Western countries are complicit. They're complicit, they continue to, they may say we want to have a permanent ceasefire, but they continue to arm the state that is doing the killing. So, I think in years come, there will be shame, I think, shared amongst many people for what they've done. And I pray now that they're seeing enough that they'll actually start to properly condemn, properly put maximum pressure on Israel to change its policies.

NK: Steve, I thank you for your time.

SC: Thank you very much.

CH: Steve Cutts is the interim CEO of the U.K.-based charity Medical Aid for Palestinians. We reached him in Lewes, England.

[lofi]

Alta Discontent

Guest: Dennis Modry

CH: Danielle Smith says she doesn't support her province separating from Canada. But she says the "large and growing number of Albertans" who have lost hope in the province's future as a part of Canada shouldn't be vilified. The premier's comments come amid renewed conversations about Alberta sovereignty, in the aftermath of Liberal Mark Carney's electoral win. They also follow a move by the Premier to lower the threshold for citizens to trigger a referendum in the province -- although that change hasn't passed yet. The topic of Alberta's relationship with Ottawa was front and centre at the premier's press conference this afternoon. Here's how she responded when asked if she'd honour a referendum that ended in favour of Alberta separating from Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE SMITH: There's a lot of ifs in that. I think if an election were held today, it would get about 30 per cent support. So, that's why I want to make sure that those numbers do not get higher. And those numbers end up going lower because we're successful in negotiating a new arrangement with Canada. That's my marching orders. I've heard pretty overwhelmingly from my caucus, from the people who've contacted my office, from the people I've consulted with is that they want me to give it a try. We tried for two-and-a-half years with the prime minister that was in place when I got elected, and I'm gonna try. I think that's the only thing that I can do, and hope that we have a different approach. I think we've already seen evidence that we have a prime minister that's willing to change gears.

CH: Premier Danielle Smith taking questions from reporters today. Dennis Modry is a co-founder and chair of the Alberta Prosperity Society, which is part of an effort to collect the names and contact info of Albertans who support a referendum on sovereignty. He's also been an informal advisor to the premier. We reached him in Edmonton.

NK: Dennis, how many people have signed on to your website to say they support a referendum since last week's election?

DENNIS MODRY: We're at over 220,000.

NK: And how many were there before the vote?

DM: About 70,000. I think it tells you that a lot of people in Alberta, and I would say elsewhere in Western Canada, are very unhappy with the direction that the country has taken in the last decade or so. And are very upset with the very strong perception that we are nothing more than a colony to serve the interests of Eastern Canada.

NK: We heard the premier there say there are a lot of ifs, and there certainly are. If this were to go ahead, what's the exact question you'd like a referendum to ask?

DM: That question has been posed already. It was drafted by two constitutional lawyers, and I weighed in on it as well. But the question is this: do you agree that the province of Alberta shall become a sovereign country and cease to be a province of Canada? Answer yes or no. For the petition, and also for the referendum, it would have to be approved by Elections Alberta. So, we haven't submitted it to Elections Alberta yet. But according to the Citizens Initiative Act, if they need some change or tweak to it, then Elections Alberta will work with the petitioner to make any improvements that may be required. But the question itself seems extremely straightforward. And we've run it through our very large operational team and they all seem to like it.

NK: Is that your hope and your dream that Alberta would separate from Canada?

DM: I don't use the term separate at all. Separate sort of implies that, you know, the land of Alberta is gonna be moved somewhere else. What we're really talking about is sovereignty. Sovereignty for the individual and sovereignty for the province, which really means self-control, controlling one's future, controlling one's ability to purchase the goods and services that they want, to not be oppressed by values that don't align with the values here, to get out from under the oppression of censorship, and a number of other things. And so, when we talk about Alberta sovereignty, we don't talk about separation, we're talking about Alberta becoming a sovereign nation unto itself.

NK: So, you wantAlberta to be the country of Alberta, not a province.

DM: That is correct.

NK: The majority of Albertans don't appear to agree with you at this stage. And we know Premier Smith, I mean we heard just from her there, that she sounds hopeful about what could happen with this new government with Prime Minister Carney. She said she's putting together a negotiating team, pushing for an Alberta Accord. So, we're just a week into this new government. So, why not put this issue away for now, when there isn't that support there?

DM: Let's put it this way. What we know is what we hear in the polls, for one thing. As you saw in the United States with the federal election, the polls were completely wrong. We still live in an era of cancel culture. And many people are unwilling to answer a poll accurately, or at all even. And we know that the polls that were conducted were conducted before the most recent federal election. As a proxy, if you will, for Alberta sovereignty, we can go to 2021 and look at the result of the referendum to end equalization. Sixty-two per cent of Albertans voted to end equalization. While I don't have an exact answer for you, you could ask the question, how many of those people who wanted to end equalization would vote in favour of Alberta sovereignty, which also gets Albertans out from under federal taxes, GST, carbon tax, fuel tax, excise taxes, and the oppressive regulations that are suffocating Alberta and others in Western Canada?

NK: Premier Smith has also said that she does not support Alberta separating from Canada, though she wouldn't stand in the way of a referendum like this, and she said she supports democracy. But there are other prominent Conservatives, former Alberta Premier Jason Kenney is one of them, saying that this is futile ranting that is dominating the debate, distracting from real issues, and distorting Alberta's real identity as a proud, confident, patriotic province. How do you respond to those critics?

DM: The electors made it known to Jason Kenney what they thought of as leadership, that's number one. Number two, the premier herself has said on more than one occasion, if certain things do not happen, then that will be a threat to national unity. There are different views, there are different perspectives on this. We as an educational society simply are educating the public on the rationale and the merits of Alberta sovereignty. And our objective is to empower the provincial government to restructure Alberta's relationship with Canada. The Premier knows that. The premier, you know, her rhetoric, of course, is she's somewhat controlled by her caucus, which are Canada first, Alberta second, many of them. And we are in a position with respect to upcoming elections, provincial elections, to ensure that MLAs that are selected to represent their constituency associations are Alberta first, Canada second.

NK: Are you saying the Premier Smith actually supports Alberta separating or becoming its own country, but is just not saying it out loud?

DM: What I'm saying is that I know that she will respect the result of the referendum. Apart from that, I can't speak on behalf of her. I certainly can speak to what she has already stated, that she would respect the results of the referendums. So, the result of the referendum, should it be successful, and I believe it will be, under those circumstances, she will be in a position to negotiate from a position of strength.

NK: But what if it fails, Dennis? Then do you put this issue away, once and for all?

DM: It's not going to. It's not going to fail.

NK: But if.

DM: I'm not going to speculate on something that I don't believe is going to happen. It will be successful.

NK: I'm glad to have you on the show, Dennis. Thank you for your time.

DM: You're welcome

CH: Dennis Modry is a co-founder and chair of the Alberta Prosperity Society. He's in Edmonton.

[elevator music]

Jets-Mobile

CH: As you heard earlier in the show -- and maybe all day every day for the past few weeks, if you know or are a hockey fan -- the NHL playoffs are a stressful time for fans across the country. We heard from Ashley Sinclair, a TikToker and Edmonton Oilers fan who is crocheting emotional support chickens for her fellow fans. And like Ms. Sinclair, Dan Nolin of Winnipeg is trying to create some good vibes. When you see Mr. Nolin, there are some clues as to who he's rooting for in Round 2. The blue Winnipeg Jets helmet, blazer, tie, and jersey suggest it's the Winnipeg Jets. And so does what he calls the "Jets-mobile". The old blue sedan is completely Jets-ified: Jets hubcaps, flags supported by hockey sticks, a goalie mask, a fighter plane, mini sticks on the hood... and a replica Stanley Cup affixed to the roof. Dan Nolin spoke with the CBC about his Jets-mobile today, ahead of tomorrow's game against the Dallas Stars.

SOUNDCLIP

DAN NOLIN: It's a '71 Chevy Vega wagon, it's a Winnipeg car, I've had it for 12 years, and I just keep having fun with it. It's just one of my hot rods that I drive around with.

COREY FUNK: And just tell me a little bit about some of the reactions that you get from people while you're driving this thing around? Like, you must, like, love just looking through people's windows and seeing how they're staring at your car.

DN: Oh, it's, like, crazy. It's amazing. I get smiles. Everywhere you look, it smiles. It's such a blast. [CF chuckles] Well, it is fun. Grandkids love it, the little kids love it. It's just fun, it's just so much fun. You know, the kids come up, they want pictures. And I don't worry about people touching it. When I park at downtown, even the police, it's parked at a taxi stand. I don't pay for parking, I just leave it there, walk away from it. And, at one point, people were wondering, you know, is it gonna get damaged? And I thought, well, I gotta have faith in people.

CF: Well, here we go, he's gonna start this bad boy up here. [engine revs] Oh yeah! Listen to that big rev! [coughing, bike horn? Air raid siren]

DN: Go Jets Go! I hope everybody ain't mad for waking them up in the morning. [both chuckle].

CH: Winnipeg Jets superfan Dan Nolin speaking with the CBC's Cory Funk.

[pop]

NS Missing Kids

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT PARKER: Very tense in this county right now, a lot of high tension, hoping and praying for good news. And as day after day goes by, and everybody, every discussion, this is, if not the first thing, very quickly comes up. It's like a kick in the gut, I guess, to people. And it's that way for all of Pictou County, and beyond. I must say, there's a tremendous amount of support from, you know, not just even here in Nova Scotia, across the country.

PORTIA CLARKE: You're hearing quite a lot of that hope and prayer and empathy, but you also are concerned about what's taking place on social media. And what do you want people to know about that, or consider as they talk about these children?

RP: But I think, of course, it's human nature when the little ones aren't being found day after day to jump to other conclusions. And I think we're all guilty of that, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. But, you know, I think it gets to a bad thing when people get on social media saying things, nasty things sometimes, about people. And about what they think might have happened, or might be going on here. I think we have to remember at this time there's a lot of people trying very hard so this will be a good outcome. I think we have to remember kindness. Let's just concentrate on finding little ones.

PC: And a lot of people are doing that. Hundreds are supporting this search. What do you know about the terrain, Warden Parker, that these searchers are covering? What's it like?

RP: It's rough. I mean, you're talking backwoods. You know, you are in the very rural part of our county. And we got a lot of very rural parts in Pictou County and I have great admiration and a big thank you to all of those who have been out for now five days. So, there's a lot individuals who are still trying. Nobody is giving up yet, but we are getting to the point where we are wondering, you now, what's going to happen next?

CH: Robert Parker is the warden of Pictou County, Nova Scotia. He was speaking with Portia Clarke, host of Information Morning in Halifax.

[sombre piano]

Part 3: Carney/Trump: Manley, Buddha Jewels

Carney/Trump: Manley

Guest: John Manley

CH: If anyone in Canada was hoping that Prime Minister Carney would come home from the White House with a quick fix, that hope has been dashed. Listen to this reporter's exchange with President Donald Trump.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Is there anything he can say to you in the course of your meeting with him today that could get you to lift tariffs on Canada?

DONALD TRUMP: No.

REPORTER: Why not?

DP: That's the way it is.

CH: So, there will be no immediate relief for Canadian businesses and workers feeling the squeeze from tariffs. But the trip to Washington may have been a first step to resetting the relationship -- with many more challenges ahead for Mark Carney. John Manley is the former Liberal deputy prime minister. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: John Manley, Prime Minister Carney, as you know, was elected after telling Canadians he is the best person to negotiate with Donald Trump. Did he show that to you today?

JOHN MANLEY: Well, I think he did what he had to do. I don't think this meeting that we all witnessed on television could be considered a negotiation. I think it was a necessary first meeting, which if I were Mark Carney, I would have dreaded it. On the other hand, you had to have it so that all the following meetings could occur. And as for that question, I mean, what an obvious answer. What else was he going to say? He is a negotiator. [both chuckle]

NK: Let me ask you, if any part of you, you said you would have been dreading it if you were Mark Carney. Were you dreading as you heard about the acceptance of this invitation, that they were going to meet in person, given what has happened with other world leaders in that Oval Office setting? I mean, were you nervous watching it?

JM: I was totally nervous. There was a lot of downside for Carney in having this meeting. I thought he, Mark, was very controlled, very careful. He resisted what had to be a desperate urge to correct and fact-check the president. He didn't do any of that. He didn't provoke him. He doesn't trigger his bully impulses. But he did what he had to, which was to make this very clear that is the headline statement that Canada is not for sale.

NK: Given the urgency and the importance of the issues, what is at stake for Canadians in particular, yes, he's a new prime minister just elected last week. But how much patience do you think Canadians have, or should have, for getting all of this sorted out?

JM: Well, I think Canadians know from the outset that the outcome of this with Donald Trump is not foreseen, or foreseeable. And whereas Mark Carney presented himself as the better candidate to deal with Donald Trump face to face, he did it really on the basis of comparing resumes, rather than on the promise of any particular outcome. No candidate could have promised an outcome. So, I think the real test, for me, is what the pain threshold of Canadians is going to be, if, in fact, we can't get to an outcome? Are they prepared to see us with a slowing economy as we make the necessary changes to redirect our economic policies, which we've had in place for 35 years to a different set of priorities?

NK: The firm but friendly and diplomatic approach, as you and others have said, appears to have worked in Canada's favour today. But there might be those who are watching who are worried about being too friendly in terms of, you know, issues, the 51st state rhetoric, and tariffs, of course, that people find insulting but also frightening. How do you think that that might play with Canadians?

JM: Well, first of all, I'm in the category of finding it insulting, as well as frightening. And I think that Donald Trump, while you may not want to take him literally, should be taken seriously. He's repeated this threat multiple times. Just in the last 24 hours, he refused to flatly rule out the use of military force to annex Canada. This is, to me, this is deeply unsettling. This is out of my experience. And it's out of Canada's experience in several generations, lifetimes. So, I think everyone should be worried and unsettled. But I think that the alternative of going in as prime minister of Canada with all guns blazing, and having the Zelenskyy moment, I don't think that would put us in a better situation. So, I think that we've gotten the necessary out of the way. We've prepared the ground to fight another day, but we're going to have to be prepared. And Prime Minister Carney is going to have to make good on his promise to fix what we can control. There's a lot in the Canadian economy that has been lethargic. We've got continuing low productivity rates. We have been lagging in international investment. And now, we need a new investment thesis for Canada. Man, he's got a full agenda, even if he don't say United States in the sentence.

NK: [chuckle] He, Mark Carney, Prime Minister Carney, is set to speak with the premiers on a call tomorrow. Keeping a united front is key always, especially now. But also, there's the Alberta factor. And Premier Danielle Smith, you know, bringing up the idea of a referendum on sovereignty. She doesn't want Alberta to separate, she says, but she's made these moves to make a referendum easier, or even likelier at this stage. So, what will the prime minister need to do to keep everyone on the same page as much as possible?

JM: Well, I think he's going to need to make a renewed commitment to keep the federal government in the federal lane. One of the biggest complaints that Alberta and some other provinces have made is a federal tendency to interfere in areas of provincial jurisdiction. And in that context, largely, Quebec has been treated, I'd have to say, with kid gloves, and Alberta has not. And they are, I think, fairly saying that they deserve to be treated with, you know, just as much respect on matters of their economy as Quebec has been on matters of their culture or language. So, I think he's got to do some bridge building. I think it's possible. I think the latest polls show that it's not that big a percentage of Albertans that favour of separation from Canada. And it doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense when you look at their landlocked position, but I think there is some bridge building to do. And I think he's capable of doing it.

NK: John Manley, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

JM: My pleasure, Nil.

CH: John Manley is the former deputy prime minister of Canada. He was in Ottawa.

[folk]

‘Endless Cookie’

CH: One of the top prizes at this year's Hot Docs festival went to Endless Cookie. It's an animated documentary co-directed by half-brothers Seth and Peter Scriver -- one Indigenous, the other white -- who dig into stories of their upbringings. The film begins in the 1970s when Peter left Shamattawa, a remote First Nations reserve in northern Manitoba, to live with their father in Toronto. He later moved back to the community as an adult. The project began almost a decade ago, but progress didn't exactly follow a straight line -- especially when the recording sessions moved into Peter's busy household in Shamattawa. Seth Scriver told the CBC why it took nearly a decade to bring Endless Cookie to life.

SOUNDCLIP

SETH SCRIVER: It started out as just trying to record some of my brother Pete's stories, who's like a natural storyteller, amazing storyteller. He's Indigenous and I'm white. And it's kind of both the differences of our lives and stuff like that. And slowly, he has, like, we were just trying to do a legit recording. Slowly, it was getting interrupted by his, like, 10 kids and 16 dogs. And so, we had to keep recording. It was totally messed up. And then, finally, we just, like, embraced the chaos of all his kids, like, messing everything up, including Cookie. One of his kids is named Cookie, and that's kind of the namesake for the movie. And she's sweet, and it's amazing. And so, then eventually, it kind of turned into this family portrait. And so, then we, like, added the rest of the family. Like, you know, they all had their own little bits and stuff like that. And so, it turned into kind of, like, little family portrait where my brother's telling stories about trapping and being stuck in his own trap.

RAMRAAJH SHARVENDIRAN: So, why did you think your brother's stories made for good content, like, would add up to a film?

SS: I made a film previously, and I was traveling around the world with it, and people would be like, you're from Canada! Oh, the model country of the world. Oh, you're so good to all your First Nations. Oh, you are so nice to the environment. And I was like, [chuckling] I would have to, like, correct people all the time, and be like, actually, you know, we're not that nice, like, always to the Native people. Like, the Native population has been kind of like, you know, screwed over a lot. And then, found myself telling my brother's stories. And so, it was like it just seemed natural where I was like, okay, I got to record some of my brother's stories. And then, it turned into this whole other thing we didn't plan. And it's kind of more beautiful now. And it took so long that my niece Cookie was, like, 10 when we started and she's 21 now. The big part of the problem with this taking so long, too, is that my brother lives up near Hudson's Bay in a small, little reserve called Shamattawa. And there's no roads that go there, you have to fly in. So, it was kind of like, you know, we're really far away from each other. And it's, like, the same price as Japan to get there.

CH: That’s Seth Scriver, co-director of the animated documentary Endless Cookie, talking to Here and Now host Ramraajh Sharvendiran earlier today.

[jaunty instrumental]

FOA: Reuters Pulitzer

CH: Hundreds of people reached out with their nominations. And now, the BC College of Family Physicians has announced the five recipients of this year's patient-nominated "My Family Doctor Award." Kyle Stevens of Summerland is one of the winning doctors. In its announcement, the college quoted one of his nominators, who said, "I have a feeling that every person who comes in that door feels welcomed like family, and no one feels like ‘just a number’.” Dr. Stevens told the CBC how it felt to receive that recognition.

SOUNDCLIP

KYLE STEVENS: To be recognized this way is really very, very special and surprising. And I was reflecting that it's so cool that I think over 700 patients went to the effort to nominate their family physician from across the province, which I think really speaks to the level of care that family physicians are providing. I thought that was really cool.

SARAH PENTON: Yeah. And as you said, it was a patient that nominated you, but you don't even know who that patient is. Do you have any sense of why you were nominated?

KS: You know, I think I do quite a lot of teaching with residents and precepting other physicians in some areas of addiction medicine. And I think the thing I try and really get across to them is the notion of patient-centred care. And that's really understanding and listening to the patient, recognizing where they're at, and what their goals are. And through that, I feel we can really then build the foundation of trust and then that shared decision-making onto what the next steps are for their health. So, I think that might be something that my patients see me striving to do and hopefully having some success with.

SP: Yeah, and as you mentioned, you do a lot of work around addictions. Can you just tell me a little bit more about the work that you do when it comes to addictions?

KS: Yeah, absolutely. I've been fortunate enough to work for the last 10 years in a clinic that's sort of set up for people with severe and persistent mental health or substance use challenges. And so, in there, we have a sort of a whole team of people working together. And it's been really nice to see the evolution and an understanding of, particularly, addiction medicine. Twenty years ago, when I started prescribing methadone, it was really quite a stigmatized drug and was not supported, to be honest, really, within the community in general. But now, we've come so far down the road where we now understand addiction as not being something like a willpower issue or a morality issue, but rather understanding it as a chronic brain disease. And then, with that lens, we can really get where we need to go with a lot of our patients.

CH: B.C. family doctor, Kyle Stevens, talking to the CBC's Sarah Penton.

[ambient]

Buddha Jewels

Guest: Naman Ahuja

CH: It's a truly phenomenal collection of garnets, pearls, and gold. And on Wednesday, in Hong Kong, it's going up for auction. And it's not just wealthy art connoisseurs who are interested. The gems to be auctioned off are called the Piprahwa gems. They were buried in a stupa, a sacred Buddhist site, in India -- and then, in 1898, they were excavated by a British landowner. His family's decision to put the jewels up for sale has sparked a major backlash and an ethical debate. Among those weighing in is the government of India -- which has issued a legal notice in an attempt to stop the auction. Naman Ahuja is a Professor of Buddhist art. We reached him in New Delhi.

NK: Professor, you've seen these artifacts, these jewels, in person. What is it like to stand before them?

NAMAN AHUJA: They are extraordinary objects. They're extraordinary things. They are exquisite jewels. Some of them are made of little gold flecks in kind of like imitation coins with sacred symbols on them. Some of them have been carved, precious stones that have been carved into sacred talismanic symbols. There are some pearls, which are unusual. They are clusters of three pearls together. There are some which have been carved into little flowers and some like little lotus buds. So, they are quite beautiful to behold.

NK: Just to hear that laugh and that smile in your voice, and then as you became more serious, it says a lot just in how you conveyed what it's like to stand before them. When and where did you get that opportunity?

NA: I got the opportunity in New York at the Metropolitan Museum, where they were displayed in an exhibition. And previous to that, I had seen them in Singapore, where they had been displayed at the Asian Civilizations Museum.

NK: So, to hear now that they're set to be auctioned -- tomorrow, in fact -- what did you think when you learned that was about to happen?

NA: Well, it's quite galling to hear that sacred relics can be commodified. One didn't know that objects that were interred with the original ashes of the Buddha, the offerings that pilgrims and people who actually belonged to the family of the Buddha had made, could be treated in this manner.

NK: Chris Peppé -- the great-grandson of William Peppé, who excavated all of these things -- wrote a piece for Sotheby's, the auction house that is set to auction these items. And in that, describes their relationship with these items as a custodianship. What do you make of that framing?

NA: It's quite important. I think that's a very correct word that they have used. It is, indeed, custodianship. One holds them in trust for other pilgrims, for the devout, and if they wish to now divest themselves of the role of custodianship, then they should ask somebody else to take on the mantle of custodianship. If the Government of India, which bestowed custodianship on them, declines, then it's a different matter. But that hasn't happened.

NK: He also writes in this piece about his grandfather, trying to tell people what he believes was happening at the time. He says, he gave the gems, the relics, and the reliquaries to the Indian government. The bone relics were gifted to the king of Siam, and all the major pieces of golden jewelry were donated to the museum in Kolkata. It is the small portion of duplicates that he was allowed to keep that have been kept in our family. That the fact that he says these are a small portion of duplicates that they were allowed to keep, does that make any difference to you?

NA: Well, what's a duplicate? Just because there are two pearls that were deposited and you deposited one in the museum, does that make the second pearl any less valuable? I know that in the 19th century there was a sort of attitude to have taxonomies, but I think we've moved far away from that and we regard these things now as being spiritually-loaded religious objects.

NK: We've mentioned, our listeners heard in the introduction, the Indian government's legal notice that it issued to Sotheby's and Chris Peppé to try to stop this auction. They say that the sale would, quote, violate Indian and international laws, as well as United Nations conventions, unquote. How much power does that legal notice have? Is there a chance that the auction could be stopped?

NA: Well, I think it must be. I mean, what an awful predicament for Sotherby's and the family to be in if it is not. This is a case of cultural property of the world, not India's property only. And India has shown that it has served as a custodian of the Buddha's body for all nations.

NK: Peppé told BBC News that they tried, you know, they've certainly been exhibiting them and you've seen them in museums, but they said they've tried to look at ways to donate these items to temples and museums, but said, quote, they all presented different problems on closer scrutiny, unquote. And he said he believes an auction seems, quote, the fairest and most transparent way to transfer these relics to Buddhists, unquote. Do you think Buddhists will have better access to these objects?

NA: I don't know if you can put a price on and sell off the relics from a casket, which was inscribed, which Sotheby's itself has stated that this is the most important archeological discovery of Buddhism and this is nearest you can get to the body of the Buddha. It's rather like asking that can you monetize, and for the sake of all Christians, put the body of Christ up for sale. Or for the sakes of all Muslims, can you put relics of Muhammad up for sale, or something like that. The United Nations has taken away clear ruling on such matters, UNESCO has, which sees objects of major spiritual significance and human remains and grave goods to be treated differently and not as objects of art.

NK: Given all of that, why do you think Sotheby's took this on?

NA: I wonder why.

NK: Why is this seen differently than others?

NA: Here, we have a named entity, there was an inscription, we know that the land from which they came was the royal terrain of the Shakya family, which is the bloodline of the Buddha. This is not some nameless stupa's contents that are being put up for auction.

NK: So, in the best-case scenario from where you sit, professor. What would happen tomorrow?

NA: The ethical and the correct thing would be to have Sotheby's and the Peppé family and others recognize that these are the inalienable heritage of the world. And to cooperate in their dissemination and the transfer of their safe custody to India for the benefit of all Buddhists.

NK: Professor, I very much appreciate your time, thank you.

NA: Well, thank you.

CH: Naman Ahuja is a Professor of Buddhist art. We reached him in New Delhi. We did contact Sotheby’s for this story, but did not hear back by airtime.

[instrumental]

Diana Ross Met

CH: It's the point of the entire enterprise, but because it is, it's extremely hard to stand out at the yearly celebration of fantastical fashion that is the Met Gala. And this year's event was no exception. I say that from non-personal experience because my invitation was somehow lost in the mail. Again. Still, had I attended as planned I would have been up against some heavy hitters. Zendaya was there in an exquisitely tailored all-white suit and floppy hat. Janelle Monáe wore a suit under a coat that was printed to look like a suit -- and magically made a monocle work for her. Andre 3000 carried a garbage bag designed by either Hermes or Hefty, and wearing a whole piano as a back pack. Because this year's theme was Black dandyism, there were various spins on the zoot suit, along with spats, gloves, dramatic hats and the occasional walking stick. But among all these haute couture looks, Diana Ross was the hautest. It was the first time in 22 years she'd attended the event. Apparently the 81-year-old hadn't been planning to go, but had the outfit in her closet -- consisting of a sparkling gown, an enormous white feathered hat and a matching train measuring over five meters long, which took five people to manage -- si if you count Ms Ross. The singer continues to tour and recently told the crowd at a sold-out show in New York City that she plans to retire...never.

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