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The AIH transcript for May 5, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: And action! Oscar-winning producer J. Miles Dale responds to the U.S. President's threats of a 100 per cent tariff on movies made outside of Hollywood -- and the impact that could have on Hollywood North.

CH: Divided over division. First Nations chiefs in Alberta push back against Premier Danielle Smith -- accusing her of trying to "manufacture a national unity crisis".

NK: A vestment interest. Typically right now, the Vatican would have an order in with Rome's longtime papal outfitters, for the new pope's cassocks. A sixth generation tailor tells us why, this time, it wasn't gar-meant to be.

CH: Old kids on the blocks. An expert on human and machine learning tells us why Minecraft made the perfect test case for his team's theories about how human beings learn and adapt -- and what makes us uniquely good at both.

NK: Avoiding an imbroglio -- emphasis on "bro". The first round of the NHL playoffs pitted two brothers against one another -- and only one could win. Their dad tells us how he handles that kind of parental pressure.

CH: And...how to get away with Mordor. For years a New Zealand airport has prominently displayed two giant eagles from the JRR Tolkien movies; but now, they're about to leave the nest forever.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that's a real creature of hobbit.

[theme]

Part 1: Film Tariffs, Pope Cassocks, Jets Comeback

Film Tariffs

Guest: J. Miles Dale

CH: "The Movie Industry in America is DYING a very fast death." The emphatic words of President Donald Trump in a social media post yesterday -- with the word "DYING" in all caps, naturally. He went on to say he was slapping a 100 per cent tariff on films produced in what he called "foreign lands" -- calling the tax incentives offered by countries like Canada a "National Security threat." Here's what he said to reporters yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Other nations, a lot of them, have stolen our movie industry. If they're not willing to make a movie inside the United States, then we should have a tariff on movies that come in. I can tell you, movie-makers love it.

CH: Today, the U.S. president said he would be meeting with industry executives -- but gave no timeline or details on how such tariffs would work. A White House spokesman said no final decisions have been made, but that the Administration is "exploring all options to deliver on President Trump’s directive to safeguard our country’s national and economic security while Making Hollywood Great Again." J. Miles Dale is the Oscar-winning producer of the film, The Shape of Water, and a frequent collaborator of director Guillermo Del Toro -- who has a production facility in Toronto. We reached Mr. Dale in Toronto.

NK: Miles Dale, you heard the U.S. President there. Moviemakers love it, he thinks. You are a moviemaker, do you love it?

J. MILES DALE: Well no, I don't really love it. You know, the film industry is really an international business. And, you know, like the auto industry, it's completely integrated globally. It's hard to like that policy, really.

NK: Where do you think it's coming from? I mean, were you surprised to hear this all of a sudden?

JMD: I was pretty surprised, yeah. I think it's not inconsistent with the increasingly sort of nationalistic policies that the administration has. You know, I'm sure he's hearing it from some people, obviously, you know, workers in California. You know, Los Angeles production is down, Atlanta is down, and everything else. And the administration's thinking about what they can do. I just think that this is really something that would really be very difficult to administer. I think a lot of us in our business are struggling to think of how it might work.

NK: How would it even be implemented, you mean?

JMD: Yeah, you know, as an example, you know, so many films that I've made, you know, from Talk to Me, Hollywoodland, The Vow, Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, as recently as Nightmare Alley that we shot in Buffalo and Toronto, all those films shot in, you know, some of them partially in Los Angeles, Chicago, New Jersey. You know, we do our post-production quite routinely in Los Angeles or New York. So, what counts for a movie that was made in America? Many Americans come here to work on our films. We go there. It's just, it's not like bananas or something that is specifically made somewhere and shipped in. I just think it's very difficult to quantify. So I think that they might struggle to figure out how that would even work.

NK: And we should say a spokesperson for the White House has told the Hollywood Reporter, and likely others, that they haven't made any final decisions on this, but the administration is exploring all options to deliver on what, you know, and I'm paraphrasing here, on what the president has said he wants to do. If this were to go ahead, I mean, what would a 100 per cent tariff on films made here mean for the Canadian film industry?

JMD: Well, I think it would be damaging. The good news is over the last 40 years, we've built an incredibly strong infrastructure here and a great domestic industry as well. And it's not just reliant on American production. There are a lot of international co-productions. There are many Canadian film and television shows. But there's no question that it would have an impact, but I think it would have an effect everywhere because prices are what they are. And, basically, you need to be able to, A, go to a location that's right for your particular film or TV show. As someone said today, you're not going to go shoot a James Bond movie in Detroit. And so, there's that, there's the sort of suitability of a location to a piece of material, which is ultimately art. And then, there's a question of what it costs. And I think realistically, it's up for people to be competitive. And certain states, New York and Georgia foremost amongst them, Louisiana as well, New Mexico, you know, they've got state tax credits. And it's very much proven that the spin-off benefits of those tax credits are valuable to local and regional economies. You know, again, proudly, I can proudly say that Ontario was one of the very first to do that and that's part of why we're such a strong business is that successive provincial governments have continued to support tax credit. And that's why everybody is very happy coming here. I think that ultimately, it's going to start a discussion now and how it might work. Might that create a situation where other states decide to add some state tax credit to incentivize some of the studios and production companies to keep more work in the United States, I don't know. But certainly, the phone lines have all been buzzing today, talking about it.

NK: What have people been saying to you, and what are you saying to them?

JMD: Well, I think just trying to figure out what it might mean, how serious it is. Because as everyone knows, there's been some back and forth on the tariffs already in terms of, you know, auto sector, agriculture, you know, they've gone up, they come down, they have been delayed, they can be put back on again. So, I think everyone's just trying to get their bearings on this and trying to figure out, okay, is this real? How would it work? Is it a negotiating stance that causes other people to step up to the plate? Nobody really knows, because it's just hours old. But the fact is, we understand that there's price sensitivity in our business, and that's why various states, provinces, countries do provide these incentives. Because they know that, A, it builds infrastructure, and they're good, high-paying, relatively green jobs. You know, the U.K. Has been strong with that. Some of the Eastern European countries, you know, the Czech Republic and Hungary and a lot of countries have really built great, successful film businesses by supporting them that way. So, you know, I think those places are going to have to decide, A, do you now foster new partnerships, or do you have new co-productions for other movies? You know, will we do more Canada-U.K. Co-productions if this happens, or with other countries in Europe? And nobody really knows. So, I think it's a little bit of a warning shot right now to say, okay, well, what will we do if this did come in and how would we react? Do we care to lobby for something else or make that a part of the negotiations? I think, you know, it's just really at this point, so early in the game, starting a discussion. But I think it was a bit of a surprise.

NK: Miles Dale, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

JMD: Yeah, thank you so much. Pray for us.

NK: [chuckle] Take care. Thank you

JMD: Okay, bye-bye.

CH: J. Miles Dale is an Oscar-winning Canadian film producer. We reached him in Toronto.

[ambient]

Pope Cassocks

Guest: Stefano Gammarelli

CH: Right now, 133 cardinals of the Catholic Church are in Rome -- where they've gathered, of course, to elect the next pope. When Wednesday's conclave begins, there'll be lots of traditions they need to uphold. The cardinals will disappear behind the doors of the Sistine Chapel where they will take a vow of secrecy, vote, and then burn the ballots -- repeating that process as many times as necessary until the white smoke comes out of the chimney -- signalling a decision has been made. But one longstanding tradition seems poised for change. The Gammarelli family has been making garments for the Catholic church for generations -- including the white cassocks worn by the pontiff. But this time around, they're perhaps a little less busy than they'd like to be. Stefano Gammarelli is one of the owners of Gammarelli Tailoring. We reached him in Rome.

NK: Stefano, I know this is a busy, exciting, and very traditional time, particularly for businesses in Rome. But amid all that tradition, there's a big difference this time, particularly for your family's tailoring business. What's happening?

STEFANO GAMMARELLI: We did not get an order from the Vatican for the three usual robes we have. It's not the first time it has happened, so we're not so discouraged. And we'll see for the next conclave.

NK: But it's the first time in a long time that this has happened?

SG: It's also a long time between a pope and the others.

NK: [chuckle] Yes, that's true. [SG chuckles] I think 46.5 years is what I read. But I hear you. You know these cycles, so there's no reason to panic, certainly. But why do you think those orders have not come in this time?

SG: It seems that they will use the white cassock remaining from the last conclave. Because each time, we do three different cassocks in three different measurements. So, two remain from the last conclave. So, they will those and maybe one from another, I don't know.

NK: Why would they do that this time around? Is it about being, you know, not being wasteful?

SG: I don't know, it's their choice. And we sincerely didn't ask why.

NK: A spokesperson for the Vatican, Matteo Bruni, said, quote, not every curiosity needs to be answered, unquote.

SG: He's perfectly right in saying this. [chuckle]

NK: In the past, can you tell me a little bit about the process? Do you get a letter? Do you got a phone call? And then, what happens?

SG: Usually, at least what I remember, a phone call and then a letter.

NK: And then the process of actually making them, can you tell us a little bit about that?

SG: Well, we have, practically we have, usually, a week, 10 days to make them. And we need to do it the fastest possible, not only because we deliver it in time, but also because we like to expose them at least a few days in our window. So, we need to manage to do everything in time for that date. And so, we, every other work is suspended and we do just that.

NK: Every other order has to wait. I guess people are understanding in Rome when that's happening?

SG: They must understand that. [chuckling]

NK: And I mean, obviously, your family has been doing this work for years is an understatement. You're the sixth generation working there, as I understand it.

SG: Yes.

NK: So, precision is a big part of tailoring. But is there another layer, another level, of precision when you're talking about specifically making something for the pope?

SG: We try to be precise in any case, but particularly for the Holy Father. Also, the tailors have a different idea in mind, so it's different, the love you put in everyday's work compared to the one that you could put on such a very special and important person. There's always for the white fabrics more particular and complicated work to do.

NK: More stress. [chuckling]

SG: Yeah.

NK: So, any accidents or mishaps when you're making these cassocks and you've had to start over?

SG: Practically each time.

NK: Every time?!

SG: I'm joking, no. [both chuckle] But it happens that there's a thread which is pulled, so we need to change the part, or there's a little stain so we have to change that part. [cellphone rings] It happens with white, it's so easy, you just need to watch it and it gets dirty. So, it's really difficult.

NK: I hear the phone ringing, do you think that's the Vatican calling?

SG: No, I don't think so. [both laugh]

NK: I don't know. I don' want you to miss an important call.

SG: No, no, somebody else will reply. [chuckling]

NK: Okay. You mentioned that, you know, the tailors themselves, are they disappointed that the order hasn't come in this time around?

SG: For sure, yes. One of them, for example, it would be her third conclave, no, her fourth one. She is disappointed, but we can do nothing about it.

NK: Has she ever met any of the popes she's made cassocks for?

SG: Yes.

NK: And what about you?

SG: Me personally, I met just Benedict XVI and Francis.

NK: And what were those experiences like for you?

SG: It was quite special, particularly with Francis because it was the first time for work. Benedict XVI, I had seen him during an audience, so it was different. For Pope Francis, I went there to take the measurements. So, it was a little bit more fascinating.

NK: Yeah, and intimate. I mean, you're taking the Pope's measurements, and you're meeting him as well. What can you tell us about what you remember?

SG: It has been something fast because it was the first day after the announcement, so he had hundreds of things to do. So, at the end, the tailor is not so important as all the other things. So, we tried to be the fastest possible, and we took the measurements and left so very, very fast.

NK: And what fabric do you use to make these? That's one thing I haven't asked you, Stefano.

SG: For the cassocks we use all pure wools.

NK: It's heavy, no? In the Roman heat?

SG: They're also very light wool. I always dress up in wool, so I'm used to it. So, if I resist, he can also resist. [both chuckle]

NK: Understandable. [SG chuckles] So, is there any chance you will get a call, do you think, before Wednesday? Or, at this point, you've closed that?

SG: No, at this point, we could not manage to do anything at this point.

NK: Having met Pope Francis, I mean, do you have any feelings about the kind of pope you'd like to see this time?

SG: No, no, because I really don't know who he could be and I don't know who I would like it to be. So, this time, it's difficult. The last conclave, it was 13 years ago and I was a kid. So, I lived it in a different way. Now that I know more things, I understand more things, it's even more difficult to understand who the new one could be.

NK: What is it like in Rome right now?

SG: I don't know if it's the weather, the jubilee, the Holy Father, I don't know, but it's full, full,full.

NK: Stefano, I appreciate your time.

SG: Thank you very much.

CH: Stefano Gammarelli is one of the owners of Gammarelli Tailoring. He's in Rome.

[chillhop house tour music]

Jets Comeback

Guest: Jeff Schenn

SOUNDCLIP

COMMONTATOR: Looking for the chip. It's a pass. Kyle Carter. Pionk wants it. He gets it. Pionk shoots. It's In! THEY SCORE!!! [cheers and a goal horn] Game over. Series Over.

CH: The final, incredibly stressful moments of last night's Game 7 in the first round of NHL playoffs. And when the Jets' Adam Lowry scored in double-overtime, the crowd in the Canada Life Centre in Winnipeg exploded. Now, with that goal, the Winnipeg Jets completed an unforgettable comeback against the St. Louis Blues -- and made it to the second round of the playoffs. But it wasn't just a battle for a spot in the next round: it was also a battle between brothers. Luke Schenn is a defenceman for the Jets; his younger brother Brayden Schenn is a centre for the Blues. It was the first time they'd faced off against each other in the playoffs. But, of course, only one brother could move on. Their father, Jeff Schenn, was there to watch his sons battle it out on the ice. We reached Mr. Schenn on the road around Moosomin, Saskatchewan.

NK: Jeff, as you and Rita make that drive home, what kind of movie or highlight reel is playing in your mind? Obviously, your feelings are going to be a little bit different than fans.

JEFF SCHENN: Yeah, there's a lot of different scenarios going, a lot of highs and lows. Honestly, you think the Blues had it in the bag, and then Winnipeg comes back with a crazy tying goal. And then, basically, two periods of everybody standing up in Winnipeg and going crazy. And Winnipeg comes through with the victory. So, I guess lots of highs or lows for both sides and the rink was absolutely bonkers.

NK: And how do you and Rita keep it together in those moments? One of my colleagues was saying it was impossible not to notice the two of you in the crowd trying to stay calm, it looked like to them. What are you both thinking in those moment? Because you know they're cutting away to you on the cameras.

JS: Oh, I have no idea what they're doing with the camera.

NK: No? [chuckle]

JS: We don't see a camera at all. We are just cheering for the kids, and you get to know the players, and that sort of makes it fun. You don't know if you're supposed to cheer, or be mad, or whatever. But, at the end of the day, like I said, the best scenario was Game 7 overtime. Actually, Brayden said we sort of jinxed it a little bit to have the chair fall because it did get to Game 7 over time.

NK: Double. [chuckle].

JS: But it was, you couldn't have drawn it up any better that way and somebody had to win, somebody had to lose. It was a crazy day. It was, I was telling my wife, it was like you just feel the pressure with what both boys are going through, I guess, and the teams. And how hard they've worked to get there, you always want the great result, right? And somebody wasn't going to get it.

NK: Yeah. How do you prepare for that between the two of you, you know, you and Rita, but also with your sons? How do you brace for that eventuality ahead of the series?

JS: Oh, they get what's going on. There's obviously been a lot going on through the series with the competitiveness of the boys. That's the kind of character players they are. And they got in a few battles along the way. And they wouldn't have it any other way, and neither would we. They're sort of relieved that it's over, but sad that it's over, too. Lots of mixed emotions along the way

NK: I bet. I bet. And afterwards, I mean, is there a family group chat? Is there trash talk on that group chat? [chuckle] What happens in the aftermath?

JS: Oh, no, no. Luke came down and met Brayden. And, you know what? They're best friends, and they talk every day. And they battled for 10 days, never really talked about hockey. And when it's all said and done, they'll be back to where they were. And there's no trash talk. They're just feeling it for each other. And Brayden's happy for Luke, and Luke's, you know, a little disappointed for his brother, but that's just what it is.

NK: That's a beautiful thing that you and Rita can take a lot of the credit for that, I think.

JS: Well, you know what? They teach us stuff all the time about competing stuff. And yeah, we're very proud of them. We're very proud of what they've accomplished, and what they've just been through, and how hard it's been on them, too. It's all over, this part of it.

NK: This part of it. You still got one going on. Yeah, you've got some more stress ahead.

JS: You betcha!

NK: And, you know, I wonder, I know you mentioned you didn't know the cameras were on you. But they certainly were. So, I mean, how were you keeping a straight face?

JS: You know what? You're sitting, obviously, in that rink, you sit with the families and the wives. And, you know, you got to cheer for the goals, and you're cheering for both teams, and cheering for your kids. That's what it is all about is cheering for our kids at this stage.

NK: Luke was joking a while back that you might switch between a Jets and a Blues hat during every commercial break.

JS: Strictly neutral. They're in a white out. I'm in a grey out. [NK chuckle] Yeah, the fans are absolutely bonkers, though, last night. Like, after they tied it to go into overtime, people were singing in the concourse, in the bathrooms, it was, they couldn't believe it. The place was electric.

NK: I mean, it was history-making in more than one way, so it must have been just incredible to be there.

JS: Yeah, no, it was. I don't know who would have went home disappointed in the outcome. They certainly weren't disappointed in the game.

NK: And your family name is part of that history. So, when you think of that, when you think of what your sons have already accomplished, but all those early practices, and having to be in two different places, I think you have daughters as well. So, you have all of this to juggle. Was this the dream scenario? I mean, was this what you had in your mind?

JS: Well, I don't know if I said it, if you don't dream of that, and your kids, but to get to be a part of it and to be along the journey with them and as long as their career has been going, it's been a lot of fun to be a part of. And us as huge hockey fans, we've had a lot of great experiences in our lives.

NK: Jeff, a pleasure speaking with you. We'll see what happens next. Congratulations, and thanks to Rita as well. Drive safe.

JS: You betcha, thanks.

CH: Jeff Schenn is the father of Winnipeg Jets defenceman Luke Schenn, who will move on to the next round of the NHL playoffs -- and St. Louis blues centre Brayden Schenn, who will not. We reached Mr. Schenn on the road somewhere around Moosomin, Saskatchewan.

[Spanish guitar]

Gandalf Eagles

CH: It is a crucial moment: the good wizard Glandorf has been imprisoned in a gross tower by the evil wizard Snumarun. He advises Glandorf to join his bad army; Glandorf refuses. This infuriates Smanorum!

SOUNDCLIP

SARUMAN: Embrace the power of the ring, or embrace your own destruction!

GANDALF: [winces] There is only one Lord of the Ring.

SARUMAN: Only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power.

[an eagle cry]

CH: But what's this? A giant eagle named Big Allan swoops in and carries Glad Elf to safety! Too bad, Samramanan! I'm sorry, I'm getting a lot of notes from the studio right now. What? Okay: apparently the good wizard is named Gandalf, the bad wizard is named Saruman, and the giant eagle has no name? That's not how I remember it. What I do remember is that Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit were filmed in New Zealand -- and a lot of tourists went to visit as a result. That's why, in 2013, the Wellington Airport installed two giant eagle sculptures, with Gandalf on the back of one. Everyone loved them. Even though, if I remember correctly, the eagles only show up when they feel like it in those movies. Where are they the rest of the time? Why couldn't they just fly Dorfo to the giant tornado so he can drop the bracelet in? Sorry: I'm being told it's "Frodo", and he drops the ring in a volcano. [scoffs] Okay. But my point stands: these eagles could have saved everyone a lot of time. Maybe the people at the Wellington airport have finally realized that -- because after 12 years, they're taking those eagles down forever. Seems like they're moving away from the Tolkien theme now that it's less of a tourist draw. And if you want those eagles you should know they’re each more than a metric tonne, and have a wingspan of 15 metres, which is about 50 feet. If you've got room, by all means make an offer. Maybe you can hang them in your barn and climb on behind Glandnorf -- if you're feeling eagle-tistical.

[ambient]

Part 2: Alta FN Sovereignty, Minecraft Adaptability

Alta FN Sovereignty

Guest: Sheldon Sunshine

CH: The Canadian map is a patchwork quilt of red and blue -- except for Alberta, which is almost entirely a blue blanket. Which is why talk of Albertan independence is getting louder once again. As we've been telling you, the Alberta government announced legislation last week that would lower the bar for holding a referendum. In a speech tonight, Premier Danielle Smith reiterated that her government would not put forward a referendum vote on separation. But she said she would "respect the democratic process" if such a question meets the new criteria -- and include it on the 2026 provincial referendum ballot. Her comments come after hundreds gathered at the Legislature Building in Edmonton on Saturday to rally for Alberta to become its own nation, or the 51st state. But Indigenous leaders are pushing back -- warning that the legislative changes, if passed, would violate treaties. Chief Sheldon Sunshine wrote a cease and desist letter to Premier Danielle Smith. He’s the chief of Sturgeon Lake Cree Nation, northwest of Edmonton. And that’s where we reached him earlier today.

NK: Chief, this cease and desist letter is brief, but it is full of strong words and strong statements, including that that you believe Premier Danielle Smith is, quote, attempting to manufacture a national unity crisis, unquote. And it goes on from there. Why do you feel that way?

SHELDON SUNSHINE: Well, I think, just by all the rhetoric that we've seen over the last several months with the Americans. And, of course, Danielle Smith's trip to Mar-a-Lago. And everything that surrounds this whole movement, I guess, to say for lack of better words. It's, you know, it's troubling. It's troubling to hear from, hear all of that and to see what kind of direction it's taking us, taking all of us. And, you know, first Nations people haven't been heard, first and foremost. And, basically, we're tired of that rhetoric.

NK: You go on to say in the letter that you believe that the premier is, quote, enabling a fanatical cell of individuals at the exact moment when Canadians need to unite against Donald Trump's America. This bill was tabled just a day after the federal election. What do you make of that timing?

SS: I think she's utilizing the emotion of those people who are unhappy with the outcome of the federal election, and feeding into that movement, like I said, and taking advantage of those. They're unhappy with the way the government went, the way the people elected the liberal government, and utilizing that.

NK: You've said that her statements already are in breach of treaties. And then, you've also said if this bill passed, it would violate treaty rights across the province as well. In what specific ways?

SS: First of all, our treaties are sacred treaties. They're signed by our ancestors with the Crown. Alberta has no say on whether those treaties are valid. If they're trying to separate from Canada, that in itself affects our treaty. When we have this premier putting out these statements that gets to a boiling point, we're saying enough is enough. And I think you've seen that from border to border, all around the province of Alberta, First Nations, and the letters that came out. It's out of frustration, you know, and protecting our treaty and inherent rights.

NK: The premier spoke to reporters last week. We know she's going to be speaking later today, but we'll play a little bit of what she said on this issue broadly last week.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE SMITH: The Citizen Initiative Act is not new legislation. And it was never designed to, nor does it breach treaty agreements. The Citizen Initiatives Act, I think, is the purest form of democracy we have. And it gives all Albertans an opportunity to play a direct role in the democratic process by inviting them to have a direct say on issues their fellow citizens want to put to the people. Any Albertan can put an idea forward on any topic. And if they're able to get the number of signatures, then it would go to a vote, and that includes a vote of members of First Nations. And we encourage Indigenous peoples to participate in the process.

NK: How do you respond to what you heard from the premier there?

SS: Well, the legislation itself, I guess, wouldn't affect our treaty right, but the result would. If they are fortunate enough to have a vote and the majority of the people accept it, then, in fact, that affects our treaty. There's no First Nation that I know of in Alberta that will support that.

NK: She made that statement. Did she respond to your letter?

SS: No, I haven't had a response. I haven't had a request for a meeting or anything.

NK: Were you surprised by that?

SS: I guess I shouldn't be surprised. You know, we haven't had a very good relationship with the province of Alberta. You know, they're of the position that we're a federal responsibility. But, you know, we do meet with the IR minister there on occasion. But, really, nothing tangible comes out of it.

NK: You likely remember back in 2022, Alberta's government passed the Sovereignty Act. The provision allows the province to refuse to enforce specific federal laws or policies that it feels, quote, violate the jurisdictional rights of Alberta. First Nations raised concerns about that act saying, you know, that it erodes treaty rights by giving legislative authority to the provincial government. What does it say to you as you think about that relationship with the province that you were just talking about that we're here now, and these are the issues, again, being discussed?

SS: They want the Canadian government to recognize their sovereignty, yet they refuse to recognize our sovereignty. So, those are the challenges that we deal with.

NK: So, no response to the letter, no meeting, as of yet, Chief, what do you do next, particularly if this legislation passes and then a referendum comes in the future? What are your next moves?

SS: Well, we've been having discussions with several communities, First Nations, and really deciding what are those next steps. We haven't formalized anything yet, but there's a lot of talk and there's lot of options for us, but that's something that we always face. We're always in a reaction mode to some of these things. And, unfortunately, that letter came out as a reaction to some of that talk and that legislation.

NK: What do you think, ultimately, from where you sit, Chief, the end game is here from the province, in your view? What do you feel the goal is? Is it actual separation?

SS: I've been trying to figure that one out. There's a lot of things going on within the province. Sometimes, it looks like it's just another smoke screen, but those are the things that we'll be discussing with other leaders, and what really is the end game here. Is it separation? I really can't see it. First Nations, like I said, will not agree to it. We'll never agree to that, where it's gonna affect our treaty.

NK: Chief Sunshine, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

SS: All right, thank you so much, appreciate it.

CH: Sheldon Sunshine is the chief of Sturgeon Lake Cree Nation. We reached him in Edmonton, earlier today. Speaking today, Premier Danielle Smith said she was committed to protecting, upholding and honouring indigenous rights. She said any citizen-initiated referendum question must not violate the constitutional rights of First Nations, Metis, and Inuit peoples and must uphold and honour treaties 6, 7 and 8, adding, quote, "this is non-negotiable." Unquote.

[electronic]

QC Cell Phone Ban

CH: Across Canada, provinces have various restrictions on cellphones in schools. And starting next fall, Quebec will expand its ban on cellphones during class time -- to a full ban on cellphone use in elementary and secondary schools over the course of the entire day. Education minister Bernard Drainville made the announcement last week, citing concerns about student concentration and socialization. The CBC asked high school students for their thoughts on the ban.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA: My name is Anna. I think it's definitely maybe going to anger some parents. My mom bought me a cell phone because of safety because I started taking the bus now. So, she wanted to make sure I get home safe and all. I think that's going to help for some kids. But I also think some kids are going to start using their phones at home more since they can't use it during the break. So, I feel like it's not going to really help the problem of, like, kids being a bit addicted to their phones.

SUSAN CAMPBELL: Do you think they are?

ANNA: I think a few definitely are. But I think most, they're not. They can use it pretty well since we kind of did grow up with electronics around us and stuff.

CH: That was CBC Quebec's community reporter Susan Campbell, speaking to a student at Saint-Charles-Garnier College. Marie-Pier Bessette is the president of the parents' committee at the Centre de services scolaire des Chênes. She's been pushing for a cellphone ban for two years.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIE-PIER BESSETTE: We just can feel the damage that cell phones are doing, how kids are not talking anymore, and seeing all those teenagers in silence in the cafeteria, not talking to each other, how they are not participating to school's live school activity, and all this adding up together. We did a major work here on the field, taking the opinion of the parents and see, so, it's not only the cell phone that we're working for, It's all screen, but cell phone is part of our work.

ALISON BRUNETTE: And how do you expect that it will change the high school experience for students across the province now?

MPB: It's going to take a couple of years before we see the change, I think. But I do hope that children will start to talk to each other again, will get back to a normal social life.

AB: Some critics of the new rule argue that a complete ban on cell phones at school will actually lead to increased usage from students outside of school hours. What is your response? What are your thoughts on that?

MPB: Well, you know, when we try to ban cell phone at school, a lot of groups told us, well, you know it's because of the parents, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I do agree that I have a parent's job to do. So, it's my job to make sure that screen time outside schools are going to be okay. Because, you know, my kid still have to learn how to use screen time. He has to, it's going to, be in his life anyway. So, I have to teach him how to use screen time, but I do want the school to be screen-free, so it's going to be a secure zone for children who do not have parents that are able to deal with it.

CH: Parent advocate Marie-Pier Bessette, talking to Alison Brunette, the host of Breakaway.

[percussive jazz]

Mike Pence Award

CH: On January 6, 2021, Donald Trump tweeted, "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country." But yesterday, his former vice-president was presented with the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award. The JFK Library Foundation's statement on the honor said it was in recognition of Mr. Pence's "putting his life and career on the line to ensure the constitutional transfer of presidential power.” Unquote. Here's some of what he had to say last night.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE PENCE: I will always believe, by God's grace, I did my duty that day, to support the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution of the United States of America. [clapping] January 6th was a tragic day, but it became a triumph of freedom. And history will record that our institutions held. Leaders in both chambers, in both political parties, reconvened the very same day and finished democracy's work under the constitution. Winston Churchill once said, when great forces are on the move in the world, we learn that we are spirits, not animals. There's something going on in time and space and beyond time and space. It's whether we like it or not. It spells duty. So, I came tonight to give credit where credit is due, but also to say in these divided times, in these anxious days, I know in my heart that we will find our way forward as one nation. Now, people who know me know I'm a conservative, but I'm not in a bad mood about it. [laughter] I believe in a strong defence, limited government, the right to life, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that might put me in the minority in this room. [laughter] But I also have differences with members of my own party, on spending, tariffs, and my belief that America is the leader of the free world, and must continue to stand with Ukraine until the Russian invasion is repelled, and a just and lasting peace is secured. [claps and cheers].

CH: Former U.S. Vice-President Mike Pence, receiving the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award in Boston last night.

[ambient]

Minecraft Adaptability

Guest: Charley Wu

SOUNDCLIP

SHARON CAMPBELL: It's so important to me because I feel that we, as Indigenous women, are so invisible. We're invisible in our workplaces, in the communities, and dismissed so often by the police. So, doing this walk is so vital to our communities so we can raise awareness and people can recognize that this is a very somber day. We're walking for our children, our youth, our moms, our sisters, our aunties, our cousins, and all of our two-spirited members that have gone missing and have been found murdered. And yet, there is no answer. Like even today, there are still unanswered questions about a lot of our members. And just making awareness of that. That we are part of the society of Canada. And we are no less than anybody else. And so, raising us to be equal to everybody else is so important to me. And that's what I guess I thrive on.

SHELLEY JOYCE: And so, you're personally responsible for organizing this event this afternoon. What kinds of response have you had from the community around this?

SC: I can't take that on myself. [chuckling] I wanted to raise awareness because I feel like there's not enough awareness about Red Dress Day. And so, I thought I'll take it to my group. We're just gonna do a walk. And I had no idea that there's, like, So much to this. You know, you had to get a license, and I'm like this is crazy. Like, all we wanted to do was walk down the sidewalk, walk to Spirit Square. So, we were planning on just starting from the garage entrance of our building, which is right at the corner of Tranquille and Renfrew, I believe. And then, you walk straight down Tranquille and then turn right onto U Street, and there's this spot that's called Spirit Square. So, I thought we'll do that. We'll walk there with my moms and, like, the families and all the youth that would join us, honour the women that we've lost in our family or community, and all the loved ones that are still missing.

CH: That's Sharon Campbell -- who organized a walk on the North Shore in Kamloops to honour missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls, on Red Dress Day. She spoke to Daybreak Kamloops host Shelley Joyce today.

[instrumental]

AfD Designation

Guest: Kai Arzheimer

CH: The far-right Alternative for Germany -- or AfD -- is taking Germany's domestic intelligence agency to court. The party confirmed its lawsuit today, three days after the agency officially designated it an "extremist" organization. That designation gives German intelligence more leeway to surveil AfD members, but stops short of banning the party -- something Germany's outgoing interior minister, Nancy Faeser, highlighted in her comments after Friday's announcement.

SOUNDCLIP

NANCY FAESER: [speaking: German]

TRANSLATION: The new assessment by the Domestic Intelligence Agency shows that we are a robust democracy and have legal instruments to protect our democracy against extremist threats. As you know, and as I've said time and again, a party ban procedure has very high constitutional hurdles for good reasons. That should not be ruled out, but it should continue to be handled very carefully. In any case, it's not something that is automatic.

CH: Germany's outgoing interior minister, Nancy Faeser, commenting on the domestic intelligence agency's decision to designate the country's far-right AfD party as an "extremist" organization. Kai Arzheimer is a German professor of political science at the University of Mainz. And that's where we reached him.

NK: Professor, the outgoing minister says this is not necessarily going to mean a ban for the AfD. What does it mean for now then?

KAI ARZHEIMER: Now, it means that the authorities have recognized that the AfD is a dangerous party, dangerous to liberal democracy in Germany. So, one aim was to inform the public about this state of affairs. A potential legal consequence is that members of Germany's public service have an obligation to protect democracy, the allegiance to democracy. And this could, on a case-by-case basis, lead to people losing their job in the public sector if they are AfD members.

NK: The report from the intelligence agency, it's not public in its entirety, but what stands out to you about what you've been reading and hearing about how the agency is justifying this new designation?

KA: So, the main line of their argument is that the AfD has an ethno-nationalist understanding of what it means to be German. So, according to the AfD, people who are immigrants, or are even of immigrant descent can never be proper Germans. And that contravenes Germany's constitution. So, that seems to be the focus of this report.

NK: And there's a huge immigrant population in your country, and one that's integral to its success in many ways.

KA: Of course! That's perfectly correct. And the AfD has repeatedly attacked not just recent immigrants but also their children and grandchildren. They have insinuated that these people are not proper Germans. They use slurs against citizens of immigrant origins. And they have even ventilated those plans for what they call remigration, which is just a code word for the deportation of citizens.

NK: The AfD was second in Germany's federal election just in February. It got just under 21 per cent of the vote. Just after the announcement on Friday about this designation, in a statement, the party's leader, Alice Wiedel said, quote, today's decision by the Office for the Protection of the Constitution is a severe blow to German democracy, unquote. And she called the process, quote, politically motivated. Was it?

KA: [chuckling] I don't think so. The agency is, of course, a big bureaucracy, but it's politically independent. Its leader is appointed by the minister of the interior, but there is clear separation between the political leadership and the agency itself. But the work of the agency, obviously, has political consequences. And it's clear from the AfD points of view that they would allege this is an attack on democracy, which it is not in my book. I mean, in which other country have alleged extremists the opportunity to go to court and to acquire a gagging order for the Secret Service?

NK: The party's leader says, the party, you know, that 1,000 new membership applications were sent in after this news. [KA chuckles] So, is there a sense that this is actually going to increase support for the AfD? And they already have support, as we've said.

KA: That is a worry. And it's not quite clear which way public opinion is going to develop in the future. At the moment, the public is quite split over the prospect of a ban of the AfD. So, roughly 50 per cent of the population are against party bans as a matter of principle, and roughly 50 per cent of the population would support a specific ban of the AfD because they say this party is not just extremist, but also a present danger to German's internal and external security.

NK: The incoming chancellor, conservative, what will all of this mean for him as he tries to get down to business?

KA: [chuckling] Yeah, well, before the election, he made this very controversial move that he voted with the AfD in parliament. Later on, he said that was a mistake, it will not happen in the future. So, he was wavering a bit. He will, I think, actually use this report to rein in those people within his own party who would like to explore opportunities for collaboration with the AFD. But he has not made any statement yet on whether he would be in favour of an attempt to eventually ban the AfD. So far, the main parties in Germany are quite reluctant to go down that route because it's not a straightforward thing in the democracy to ban a party. And both major parties are very cautious about this.

NK: If a ban is problematic and not the answer, what would you suggest to political leaders there so that people turn to other parties instead of this one growing?

KA: Yeah, well, first, I'm not sure if the government shouldn't pursue a ban. Because this is on a different scale than anything we have seen since the 1950s. In the 1950's a proper neo-Nazi party was banned. And I think this is at least as dangerous as the situation was in the 1950s. So, I wouldn't rule out a ban. But beyond these judicial measures, I think Germany's parties should try and focus on their own agendas. For the last three or four years, all they have done, basically, was trying to win back AfD voters by getting ever more tough on immigration. And this has not worked, on the contrary. On the other hand, people still trust the main parties to manage the economy. And I think they should have the audacity to talk about their own issue, to pursue their own agenda, and to hope that voters might eventually return to them.

NK: Professor, I'm very glad we could speak. Thank you for this.

KA: My pleasure. Thank you for having me on the show.

CH: Kai Arzheimer is a professor of political science at the University of Mainz, and the former Hannah Arendt Visiting Chair in German and European Studies at the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto. We reached him in Mainz, Germany.

[glassy guitar]

Winning Family Doctor

CH: Hundreds of people reached out with their nominations. And now, the BC College of Family Physicians has announced the five recipients of this year's patient-nominated "My Family Doctor Award." Kyle Stevens of Summerland is one of the winning doctors. In its announcement, the college quoted one of his nominators, who said, "I have a feeling that every person who comes in that door feels welcomed like family, and no one feels like ‘just a number’.” Dr. Stevens told the CBC how it felt to receive that recognition.

SOUNDCLIP

KYLE STEVENS: To be recognized this way is really very, very special and surprising. And I was reflecting that it's so cool that I think over 700 patients went to the effort to nominate their family physician from across the province, which I think really speaks to the level of care that family physicians are providing. I thought that was really cool.

SARAH PENTON: Yeah. And as you said, it was a patient that nominated you, but you don't even know who that patient is. Do you have any sense of why you were nominated?

KS: You know, I think I do quite a lot of teaching with residents and precepting other physicians in some areas of addiction medicine. And I think the thing I try and really get across to them is the notion of patient-centred care. And that's really understanding and listening to the patient, recognizing where they're at, and what their goals are. And through that, I feel we can really then build the foundation of trust and then that shared decision-making onto what the next steps are for their health. So, I think that might be something that my patients see me striving to do and hopefully having some success with.

SP: Yeah, and as you mentioned, you do a lot of work around addictions. Can you just tell me a little bit more about the work that you do when it comes to addictions?

KS: Yeah, absolutely. I've been fortunate enough to work for the last 10 years in a clinic that's sort of set up for people with severe and persistent mental health or substance use challenges. And so, in there, we have a sort of a whole team of people working together. And it's been really nice to see the evolution and an understanding of, particularly, addiction medicine. Twenty years ago, when I started prescribing methadone, it was really quite a stigmatized drug and was not supported, to be honest, really, within the community in general. But now, we've come so far down the road where we now understand addiction as not being something like a willpower issue or a morality issue, but rather understanding it as a chronic brain disease. And then, with that lens, we can really get where we need to go with a lot of our patients.

CH: B.C. family doctor, Kyle Stevens, talking to the CBC's Sarah Penton.

[ambient]

Rectum Mummy

Guest: Andreas Nerlich

CH: For centuries, the crypt of the St Thomas am Blasenstein church in Upper Austria had something unusual resting in the basement: a mummy. The preserved gentleman -- whose truly impressive name was Frans Xaver Sidler von Rosenegg -- was rumoured to be one of the church's vicars who had died, and maybe been murdered, in 1746. And now, a new study proves that these odd facts are just the beginning of the story. Because how vicar Sidler von Rosenegg was preserved is the truly strange part. Andreas Nerlich is a pathologist at Ludwig Maximilian University in Munich -- the lead author of the study. We reached him in Munich.

NK: Andreas, before your study, what was known about how this vicar's body was preserved?

ANDREAS NERLICH: Well, the history of this vicar is quite complicated because nothing is known about his death, nothing is known about the first period until the first rumours came out that a body found in completeness was the body of this vicar and this first record was in 1850.

NK: With all this mystery, there was something known for sure and that was the nickname that he received.

AN: The "air-dried chaplain".

NK: Oh my! It's kind of macabre. The whole thing is kind of a macabre. [AN chuckles] So in 2000, so 25 years ago now, there was an x-ray done of the corpse by scientists and that revealed a clue. What was that?

AN: The first x-rays that were taken, they found at the lower body and the inside of the body a small, about one centimetre large pearl or some kind of a bullet. But as the fore and back side of the the body were completely intact, this couldn't be the effect of a bullet of a shooting or something like that. And so, there were some rumours that this was a poisonous capsule that he had ingested and that had been the reason why he died.

NK: So then the corpse, the body, the remains are transported to your lab, if that's the right word to use, in Munich, from Austria.

AN: Yes. Yes.

NK: So, you start to take a closer look and what did you find?

AN: Well, the most surprising finding came with a CT scan. Because we got a look into the inside of the body, and then we found that the abdominal and pelvic cavities were almost completely stuffed with some mysterious material. At first glance, mysterious because we just saw a lot of foreign material. And then, we made a small opening called focal autopsy. Opening from the back side into this area, and there we found out that this was filling by wood chips, by twigs, by dry plants, by a lot of fabric that had been inserted into the body. And the only way for this insertion was the anal canal, which they had used for the stuffing of this material inside the body.

NK: And then, that capsule that the previous team thought might have been poison, what was that?

AN: Yes, we also found during this partial autopsy, the small capsule, we looked for it and we found it. And it was a little glass pearl with a coverage of lids, just those pearls that are used, for instance, for rosaries or for embroideries of fabrics and so on. And it must have been come into the body just by chance during this stuffing.

NK: Okay, it wasn't an intentional placement as something religious.

AN: So, no poisonous capsule, no evidence for any risk. We also performed a chemical analysis of the inside of this material and the body wall inside. And there, we found that they used a lot of zinc chloride for drying out, also additional drying out the body and also for disinfection. Because zinc chloride has a strong disinfecting activity, but we did not find any evidence for any poison that might have been applied.

NK: It's all very fascinating. As you looked at those scans and put the pieces of this puzzle together, I mean, have you ever come across this kind of preservation of a body?

AN: No, this type of preservation is really unique. And we didn't find any similar case as yet. Although, I think that it might have been used much more frequent for a short-term type of embalming, for instance, for transport or for prolonged laying out of a body for something like that. But when you then put the body into the soil, it degrades and then you will never identify that any woodchips or twigs would have come from the inside and not from the outside of the body.

NK: And why did it work, scientifically speaking, this method?

AN: Yeah, it's both the drying effect. So, you're absorbing all the liquids that are might have caused or enhanced the decay of the body. And the zinc chloride additionally is a strong disinfectant. So, it has also a reducing effect on the bacteria. And these together led to a drying out from the internal part. And that's the reason why the trunk is very well preserved, while the head and the feet are far less well preserved.

NK: How does this discovery rank among all of the others in your career?

AN: [laughing] Good question. You're asking the person that identified the oldest prosthesis of a big toe in region Egypt.

NK: [chuckle] Oh wow!

AN: Which is about, let me say, 2,500 years old, so I think it's ranking number two. [chuckling]

NK: Okay, number two. That's not bad at all [AN laughs] to have those two at the top of your list. I guess that the toe is hard to top.

AN: So, you see, I have a very funny hobby. [both laugh] So, therefore, I'm doing strange things like that for a couple of years. And sometimes, you have really fascinating and very surprising findings.

NK: Well, I'm glad we could speak about this one, Andreas. Thank you.

AN: [chuckle] Best regards to Canada and all the best for you.

CH: Andreas Nerlich is a pathologist at Ludwig Maximilian University. We reached him in Munich.

[indie rock]

Callamard 51st Sate

CH: We never know exactly what will happen tomorrow. But we really don't know what will happen tomorrow tomorrow -- when Prime Minister Mark Carney pays a visit to U.S. President Donald Trump, at the White House. At the top of the agenda will be tariffs -- and Mr. Trump's constantly repeated threat of making Canada the 51st state. Since he was elected, Mr. Carney has made it clear that he's prepared for hard negotiations -- and that the relationship between the two countries is no longer that friendly. Amnesty International says Canada and the Prime Minister should be bringing that same intensity to human rights issues. The global head of Amnesty, Agnès Callamard, is in Canada on a rare visit. And today, she was asked by a reporter how Canada can be a leader in international human rights when it's facing annexation threats from the States.

SOUNDCLIP

AGNÉS CALLAMARD: I mean, you know, this attack on the territorial integrity of Canada is unacceptable. It's unacceptable, you now, because of the historical relationship between the two countries, but it's unacceptable because it's a violation of international law. So, you fight back by protecting international law, by protecting everything that was created 80 years ago, to ensure peace and security globally. And, yes, we are not that naive to think that it worked remarkably well, not at all, but it is certainly better than what our friend from across the border has in mind, not him, [chuckling] his president. So, again, I want to insist there is no contradiction. The attacks against Canada's territorial integrity are an attack against the international rule-based order. And to protect Canadians' integrity, national integrity, you need to protect the rule-based order. You need to demonstrate that it is a credible and important solid foundation for global peace and security. And let me say that the majority of countries around the world agree to that. We've seen that over and over again over the last 12 months in the way the UN General Assembly has voted on a range of questions, it demonstrates that from Africa to the Americans, from Europe to Asia, countries want a rule-based order. They certainly do not want Donald Trump to go around and suggest that he's going take over someone else's country and territory. But that must be protected through the protection of international law, through the rule of law, and that includes everything that is part of it, all the conventions. And there are a lot of human rights conventions in that system. They must be protected. So, if you want to protect Canada's territorial integrity, then you need to stand firm for the rule-based order. And that means also for human rights protection.

CH: That was secretary general of Amnesty International Agnès Callamard, speaking at a press conference in Ottawa today.

[acoustic guitar]

End of Skype

[the Skype call ringer]

CH: The sound of a bygone era -- the sound of an incoming Skype call. Today, the video-call service shut down for good. And in a world of Zooms and WhatsApps and Meets and FaceTimes, Skype may seem like a quaint echo of times gone by. But when it launched in 2003, it was the hottest thing in town -- and it really did change everything. Skype was the pioneer of easy, cheap, sometimes very annoying and glitchy, global communication. Today, people are reminiscing about falling in love over Skype, maintaining long-distance relationships without the long-distance charges, and staying connected with faraway family and friends. All the things we now take for granted, but were life-changing at the time. Skype changed this show as well.

[a montage of past co-hosts saying we reached somebody via Skype]

CH: I'm not sure why but it seemed very important at the time, I guess, that we mention we weren't just phoning our guests, as this show had done for decades -- we were Skyping. Well, today we bid adieu to what was once one of the most popular websites in the world. A service whose distinctive ring once made our hearts Skype a beat.

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