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The Current Transcript for April 30, 2025

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: We're dealing with a lot of countries right now and could be with China, but maybe we'll make a special, you know, a deal, and we'll see what it will be.

MATT GALLOWAY: With the ballots finally counted, job number one for Prime Minister Mark Carney is to establish what Canada's new relationship with the United States will look like. As it turns out, other countries are also trying to chart a path through the trade wars. In an hour, what we might learn from how Japan, Europe and South Africa are dealing with tariff threats coming from the United States. Also this morning, design for all. In the 1970s, the industrial designer Patricia Moore had the make-up artist for Saturday Night Live transform her into an 85-year-old woman. What she learned out on the streets in disguise opened her eyes to how society treats older people. Coming up, how to design a world that does not leave seniors behind. Plus.

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SPEAKER: We are in incredible pain. The Filipino community will show true resilience. And we will come together out of this catastrophe.

MG: Vancouver is in mourning. In 30 minutes, how members of the Filipino community there are supporting each other in the wake of an incident that turned celebration into unimaginable tragedy. But we begin with Canada's new minority government. The election is over, and now, the hard work begins. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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ELECTION

Guests: Chris D’Entremont, Dominic LeBlanc

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[cheers, applause]

MARK CARNEY: You know, humility underscores the importance of governing as a team in cabinet and in caucus and working constructively with all parties across Parliament, of working in partnership with the provinces and the territories and with Indigenous peoples.

MG: The Liberals are in with a minority government in what was a tight race. Some mud was flung along the way. But Prime Minister Mark Carney says it's now time to build bridges. Pierre Poilievre echoed those thoughts in light of the existential threats coming from the United States.

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PIERRE POILIEVRE: We will always put Canada first as we stare down tariffs and other irresponsible threats from President Trump. Conservatives will work with the prime minister and all parties with the common goal of defending Canada's interests and getting a new trade deal that puts these tariffs behind us while protecting our sovereignty and the Canadian people.

[applause, cheers]

MG: Well, now that the campaign planes, trains and buses are parked, it's time to get governing. This morning, we'll hear from two returning Members of Parliament. In a moment, a conversation with Dominic LeBlanc, Minister of International Trade and Intergovernmental Affairs with the newly re-elected Liberal government. He's also a newly returning Liberal MP in New Brunswick. But we're joined first by Chris D'Entremont. He's the newly re-elected Conservative member for Acadie-Annapolis in Nova Scotia. Chris, good morning.

CHRIS D'ENTREMONT: Good morning to you.

MG: Congratulations.

CHRIS D'ENTREMONT: Thank you so much.

MG: There were a lot of points of agreement between the Liberals and the Conservatives based on platforms. You might not have seen that during the campaign, but I think the platforms, there was a lot of shared territory in some ways. And you seem to have some common ground in the need to stand up to Donald Trump, build more housing, diversify trade, natural resources, et cetera. Do you think the Conservatives, I mean, the role of an opposition party is to oppose, but do you think that Conservatives can actually find some ways to support Liberal initiatives in this upcoming Parliament?

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: Well, I don't think we're going to have much of a choice. You know, Canadians have sent us back to the House of Commons in a minority situation, and to make a minority situation, looking at the threats that we have coming towards us, we're going to have to find some common ground on some things. I'm not going to say it's going to happen on everything, but I'm sure when it comes to Donald Trump and trade and trying to make Canada stronger, I think we'll all agree on those things.

MG: Where do you think that might be and what would show Canadians that there's, it's, I mean, the last Parliament was so disruptive and divisive and Dysfunctional, you could use that word as well. What would show Canadian's that that common ground can be found?

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: Well, I mean, I think at some point, the leaders have to get together and try to map a few things out. You know, again, it takes both sides of this to work as well. You know, I think in the past, there wasn't much of an opening for Conservatives to work with Liberals or Liberals to work with the Conservatives. But I think in this particular case, I think Prime Minister Carney or Prime Minister-elect Carney will have to open his doors and see who comes through those doors. And I know from the speeches that we've heard from Pierre Poilievre that, you know, I think he's willing to do those things. And I think speaking to my colleagues across the country at this point, you know, we need to, you know, reset a little bit and, you know, look at what went wrong in our election and what went right. So that's going to take some time. So we're going to have to work together for a bit.

MG: The question will be whether it’s Mr. Poilievre that walks through that door if it's opened up. He, of course, lost his seat. He lost the election as well. Do you think he'll be able to stay on as leader of the Conservative Party?

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: I think he can. I think there's a path for that. I think we really have to sit down again as caucus and as the newly elected members and find out, you know, exactly what the next plan is. You know, and I know they're probably already doing the work there this morning trying to figure things out, but they need to bring the rest of us in. I mean, if you look at what happened here in Eastern Canada, you know, we gained a little bit in Newfoundland, we lost a little bit in Nova Scotia, you know, we didn't, we picked up a couple in Quebec, and then there was some actual success in the 905 and going west. So we need to figure out what's going on in the east so that we can, you know, better represent all of Canada. I'm going to be a little lonely in the next Parliament where I don't have, you know, Rick Perkins or Stephen Ellis with me.

MG: You have said that Caucus, as you've said, needs to be brought in to discuss whether he stays on as leader. Just because he wants to stay doesn't mean that he will be able to stay. I mean, Erin O'Toole and Andrew Scheer might have a word to speak about that as well. The process is such that the expectation would be that an MP would step aside and give Pierre Poilievre the opportunity to run, but you've said that's not fair. What did you mean by that?

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: Well, ultimately, everybody just spent the last 36 days knocking on doors and getting themselves out there to get elected. And ultimately, probably some of them have been at it for the last three, four years after they've lost. I mean, there's a number of MPs that lost their last elections and, you know, been working really hard to get reelected. So, you know, that person in that association, you know, has invested a fair amount of money, a fair amount of time, knocked on thousands and thousands of doors. And to ask someone to step aside automatically is not, I don't think, fair to that person. Yet, for the party, for the country, it's probably the right thing to do too.

MG: Your premier, Tim Houston, praised Mark Carney's handling of Donald Trump early in April. What does that tell you?

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: Yeah, that one's always a challenge, you know, because we sort of run into this line of which party do you belong to? I mean, I was a longtime member of the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia, a longtime MLA in the legislature. I've worked with many of those ministers that are in Tim Houston's government. I worked with Tim Houston directly. And I got a nice congratulations from Tim after the ballots were all counted. You know, but there's, we're not necessarily the same party, and we need to figure out a way to respond to Nova Scotia issues. You know, the politics of Nova Scotia I think is far different than, you know, let's say Alberta. So we really need to have a better feeling and a better connection with our provincial cousins on many of the issues that are important to us and, you know, knowing full well there was a lot of our volunteers on our campaigns that I know are provincial members. We know there was a lot of people out of the premier's office that were working for different campaigns across the province. So there is a connection. It's just not quite as established as maybe in other provinces where, you know, the Conservatives are Conservatives. Here, Progressive Conservatives are not necessarily Conservatives, and we try to find common ground on many of, we're all the same, you know, the same shade of blue.

MG: As a Progressive Conservative, do you feel comfortable in the current Conservative Party? It's not a Progressive Conservative party.

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: Well, it includes Progressive Conservatives.

MG: By name, though, it's not certain.

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: Yeah, by name, it's not. But it includes a lot of people that look like me, that have the same kind of, you know, progressive views on social programs. There's a lot of other views on different things. And I think that's the beauty of the Conservative Party, is that we can actually all sit down, disagree on a certain number of things, but agree on a lot of things on how to move our country forward. So I see a lot of me in the Conservative Party of Canada.

MG: What do you think Canadians want coming out of this election? There were a number of different narratives. One was change. One was, and we can talk about how that played out, but also in a moment of crisis, it seemed like that obviously changed the math not just for the Conservatives, but changed more broadly. What do you think Canadians want coming out of this election?

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: Well, yeah, and I think the messaging that they got from the parties was so similar that people didn't know which change they were voting for. You know, if I look at even my numbers in Acadie-Annapolis where I pulled off somewhere as like 22,000, 23,000 votes, which is the same number of votes that I had last time, but there was another 22,000 votes that went to my Liberal opponent, Ronnie LeBlanc. So very much split on who can offer a better chance for our constituency. So people have asked us to go back and try to figure it out as politicians, as a House of Commons. And I think it's equal on what they're pushing us forward to. That's where minorities in the past Should work. And I think we should be working closer together to try to figure things out Before, you know, pulling the plug once again in 18 or 24 months or whatever that might be.

MG: I'll let you go, but do you think that's possible to actually work together? You're optimistic about that.

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: I'm a politician, and I've been a politician for quite a long time. So I am probably more optimist than most people.

MG: Chris, it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much for your time this morning.

CHRIS D’ENTREMONT: Have a wonderful morning. Thank you so much.

MG: Thank you. Chris D’Entremont is the newly reelected Conservative member for Acadie-Annapolis in Nova Scotia. Dominic LeBlanc is Minister of International Trade and Intergovernmental Affairs, newly re-elected Liberal MP in the New Brunswick riding of Beausejour. He is in our Moncton studio this morning. Dominic LeBlanc, good morning to you.

DOMINIC LEBLANC: Hi. Good morning.

MG: Congratulations.

DOMINIC LEBLANC: Thank you very much. You're kind.

MG: This was a very tight race. Eight million Canadians voted for Conservative candidates, just half a million less or so that voted for the Liberals. You come in with a very strong minority government, but just a few seats shy of a majority government. We heard the prime minister on Monday night talk about humility. What will show Canadians that humility, do you think?

DOMINIC LEBLANC: So I was very pleased that the prime minister took that tone so deliberately and so clearly on Monday. I think humility starts by, exactly as your previous guest, my neighbour from Nova Scotia, Chris D’Entremont saying, starts by working with the Parliament that Canadians elected. In our system, there's somebody who's asked to form a government. In this case, it'll be Prime Minister Carney, but that government has to work with the Parliament that Canadians elected. It starts by ensuring that we're working collaboratively with provinces and territories. The prime minister also talked about that on election night. I'm his intergovernmental affairs minister. He talks to me often about how we work with provinces and territories, recognizing their jurisdiction. I think our government hasn't perhaps been as disciplined as we might have been in terms of those principles. I think Prime Minister Carney is very conscious that at a time when our federation will be under some pressure in the Canada-US challenge, we need to be collaborative, engaged, working with provinces. I was very encouraged by the text messages and calls I got from some Conservative premiers on Monday night and yesterday. So I'm quite optimistic that that tone of humility, collaboration, Canadians would be, I think, understandably frustrated if the government didn't work deliberately and meticulously with those that are elected to do what Canadians expect us to do.

MG: So where is the opportunity, do you think, for your government to work with your federal Conservative colleagues?

DOMINIC LEBLANC: Again, I was reassured by Mr. Poilievre’s comments on election night where he talked about ensuring that Canada works collaboratively. I forget the exact phrase. You can imagine it was late, and I perhaps wasn't as alert as I should have been at that hour. But Mr. Poilievre’s message was that the Conservative Party will work to ensure that the Canadian economy and Canadian workers are protected from the threat of tariffs. That's exactly what Mr. Carney and our government has been saying. So if that's the basic principle, surely there's some common ground in Parliament. But the way our system works, and Mr. Carney, I was glad he spoke with President Trump yesterday. They've agreed to meet in-person at some point in the near future. The way our system works is the elected government sits down, negotiates agreements with foreign governments. And then ultimately, if there's legislation that has to follow to implement those agreements, that legislation is put before Parliament. That is the parliamentary process whereby which the House of Commons will be able to pronounce itself on what we hope is a security and economic agreement that Mr. Carney and our government can put together with the United States.

MG: Let's talk about those relations here in this country. Danielle Smith, the premier of Alberta, said that many voters in her province were frustrated to see the Liberals back in government. She promised to protect her province against what she calls future hostile acts from Ottawa. Scott Moe, premier of Saskatchewan, also called on your government to heal divisions for, in his words, example, by getting rid of the oil and gas emissions cap, loosening restrictions on energy development, easing clean energy regulations. Outside of the specifics, how are you going to go about making sure that people, particularly in the west, feel that they are part of this larger conversation?

DOMINIC LEBLANC: So I think it's a very good question. It starts, I think, by understanding that Prime Minister Carney was born in Canada's north and grew up in Edmonton, went to high school in Edmonton. He lived in Edmonton. My conversation's with him, Edmonton and Alberta is very much home for him. You're right. Those two Conservative premiers have been vocal around a number of specific policies with which they may have disagreed. That's fine. That's the way a federation works. Everybody doesn't agree on everything. The national government makes decisions that are in the national interest, and the provincial governments, surprise surprise, don't always agree with all those decisions. That doesn't traumatize me. I think, however, if you look at Mr. Carney's campaign for the Liberal leadership and the time he's been prime minister and the recent election campaign, he talks about renewable energy resources and conventional energy resources. He talks about building energy infrastructure. He has been very deliberate in ensuring that natural resource sectors, and it's not just oil and gas, for example, from some provinces, but it can be mineral development projects, it can be clean electricity grids. I'm very excited by the tone and the posture that Mr. Carney has set in terms of making Canada very much an energy superpower in the broadest sense of the term. So that should be reassuring to those two premiers.

MG: I apologize for interrupting, but I just wonder whether that's felt by people there. When we were in central Alberta, in Red Deer, for example, we heard from a lot of voters who, I mean, they don't know whether to believe Mark Carney or not, but they also just feel cut out. And that idea of western alienation, and it's not politicians talking about it, it's people on the ground who feel that they are cut out of Canada in some ways. How do you address that?

DOMINIC LEBLANC: Well, first of all, you have to acknowledge that some partisan politicians, and not from our party, have sought to exploit and fuel that division for their own benefit. So that is never constructive. Whether it was Mr. Manning, for example, who's been out of politics for decades, that he decides to give an interview and create a circumstance, in my view, grossly exaggerated. That's not particularly constructive, but I'm not responsible for what some former Reform Party politician might say. I think what you say to those people is exactly what Mr. Carney said on election night, that once a government is elected, it governs for the whole country. We don't expect everybody and every constituency, 343 constituencies, to vote the same way. That would be a rather unusual election outcome that doesn't often happen in a robust democracy. So we shouldn't be traumatized by that, but we should govern recognizing that the economic interest of Canada depends on the success of Alberta. I've said to Premier Smith, I have a very collaborative relationship with Premier Smith. Premier Moe and I chat on the phone, text back and forth often. These are people that I'm happy to work with, have been happy to work with. But every time I get on a plane in Moncton, New Brunswick and go to Montreal or Toronto, there are dozens of people going to Western Canada to earn their living, often in the oil and gas industry, and they come back. I see them on the planes at Montreal Airport on Friday night coming home. So the economic interest of the whole country depends on the success of the economy in provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan. And I think that we should, I shouldn't, I cannot say that enough, that the whole country benefits when the economy of key, key provinces and sectors like the oil and gas industry are developed in a sustainable, enduring way.

MG: We're just about out of time. Let me just ask you very briefly about another province, and that's Quebec. The leader of the Bloc yesterday said that he'd be willing to work with the Liberals, but one of those red lines is oil and gas. And people are talking about a pipeline and national energy corridors, what have you. How big of an obstacle do you think the Bloc is going to be?

DOMINIC LEBLANC: So again, these are the opening postures that people take. The election results are not even 48 hours old. The Bloc have been consistent with respect to that, that position. It's not necessarily expressed in the same way by the premier of Quebec, who frankly has a different mandate than the Bloc Québécois that lost a bunch of seats in Quebec. Premier Legault isn't as categorical when he talks about that sort of thing. So it's very early for people to put red lines and sort of no-go zones. Canadians elected a government, they want the government and Parliament to work, but Mr. Carney's also been clear that there's no actual project that has been submitted to a regulator for approval. So the question is hypothetical almost in three ways. Mr. Blanchet can write a hypothetical line in some hypothetical sand about a hypothetical project. That's fine that he's doing that after he lost a bunch of seats in Quebec. Again, I'm not surprised by that. That may not be everybody's tone in six months or in three years. People have to get to work and focus on the jobs they have. And I think the melodrama from some of the opposition parties can be turned down because Canadians won't, I think, be forgiving if we're not making best efforts to find common ground.

MG: Well, and that's it. I have to let you go, but just in a word or two, you're confident that that common ground can be found? Canadians do want action. You're confident that that can be found?

DOMINIC LEBLANC: Totally. Canadians are concerned. They're worried. They expect all of us that were lucky enough to be elected to work together, and I'm actually excited too. I've got friends in the Conservative Party, in the Bloc Québécois, in the NDP. I'm actually looking forward to seeing my colleagues, and not just from my party, but across the House of Commons who were elected, and maybe that'll happen in June. I'll look forward to it.

MG: It's been a long few days and nights for you. I appreciate you taking some time to talk to us. Thank you very much.

DOMINIC LEBLANC: I'm always happy to be on your program. Thank you for the invitation.

MG: Dominic LeBlanc is the Federal Minister of International Trade and Intergovernmental Affairs, reelected for a ninth term in New Brunswick in the riding of Beausejour. Your CBC news is coming up next, and then we're going to go back to Vancouver. Just four days after an horrific incident at the Lapu-Lapu Festival in Vancouver, we'll check in with the Filipino community there. We heard about resilience in the wake of that incident. We're going to talk about what that means and how people are helping each other. That’s coming up in six minutes here on The Current. Stay with us.

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FILIPINO COMMUNITY TRAGEDY RESPONSE

Guest: RJ Aquino

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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TJ CONWI: Just let me know what hospitals and where to go and how many meals they need, and I can get somebody to go over there and we can make the food.

MG: At a massive industrial kitchen in East Vancouver, the chef and caterer TJ Conwi is busy. He's fielding calls, planning and cooking. It has been four days since 11 people were killed and dozens injured at the Filipino Lapu-Lapu Street Festival. TJ and other local business owners have organized to prepare and deliver warm food to victims and their families and to emergency response centres. And they've already delivered more than 200 meals.

SOUNDCLIP

TJ CONWI: Yeah. So right now, we're going to make some fried rice, eggs, and some longaniza is on the way also. So this is, so we have three deliveries today, actually five now to so one home, and then we have three deliveries to BGH and then more later on. Sometimes, Filipinos have this thing where they're strong and they don't want to ask for help. That is the spirit of Lapu-Lapu actually. Lapu-Lapu is about perseverance. It's about resilience. We are strong, but sometimes what I want to get the message out there is that yes, you're strong, but also, this is our way to be able to give back to you, because we want to be able to help our community. We're just going to let that cook down slowly. That smells good. Food is everything to Filipinos. Our greeting is after kumusta, after how are you, it's always kumain ka na ba, have you eaten already? So to me, it’s about healing. This is how we heal. Being able to give, being able to provide makes us feel that we are able to take care of our loved ones. Yeah, it's been surreal, right? Like we usually don't get this much attention. We sometimes to a fault are that model immigrant citizens, right? Like we don't boast about things. We just do what it is that we need to do. And it's been surreal getting all this attention, being at that vigil, seeing all of the politicians and all the community leaders go together. I was looking around saying, why is everybody here? And it was amazing to see that outpour of support. But I mean, I think it is time for us to boast about our community, right? We are that strong community that everybody can rely on. We can all come together as a community, which I think sometimes is the silver lining when tragedy happens, right?

MG: That’s chef and caterer TJ Conwi. He's part of a support effort for those affected by Saturday's tragic incident. RJ Aquino is chair of Filipino BC. It's the group that organized the Lapu-Lapu Street Festival. RJ, good morning.

RJ AQUINO: Good morning.

MG: It has been an awful few days. How are you doing?

RJ AQUINO: Getting better, not sleeping much. And actually, listening to just that previous segment got me feeling a little emotional, but it's uplifting to hear how everyone's banding together to push through.

MG: What does that tell you when the community sees this sort of response from within the community, but also beyond? I mean, TJ talked about, you know, the spirit of resilience, but we also know that there is a real sense of within the pull to bring people together and to work together. What does that tell you?

RJ AQUINO: I mean, it's not surprising. I mean, we've never experienced a tragedy of this scale, but it doesn't surprise me how the community really bands together in times of difficulty. The amount of support and love from everywhere, from within and outside of the community has been quite frankly at times overwhelming. And I want to share that we see and hear it all, and it does give us strength and energy to keep doing the work that we're doing right now, which is to help as much as possible those that have been impacted by this.

MG: Within the community itself, where does that come from, that idea that people need to help each other out?

RJ AQUINO: It’s just ingrained in our culture. It's the spirit of bayanihan. It’s just where we see ourselves in each other, we see the need to lift up one another, especially in times like this. Sometimes, I feel like it's hard to explain because it's just so ingrained in that whenever you see Filipino kind of emerge in the public conversation and you think about, okay, what's the situation like? Are they in need and how can I help? That's kind of the immediate reaction that a lot of Filipinos that I know, you know, have right away.

MG: You must have seen that from not just across the country, but around the world. I mean, I have friends, Filipino friends all over the place who all are talking about this and all wonder what they can do to help. The sense, that sense of bayanihan must be that the web would be wide in a moment like this.

RJ AQUINO: Yeah. I, honestly, I have hundreds of unread messages across kind of texts and social media, and I see them come through, and I kind of see the subject line, and I haven't gone through them, and sometimes just kind of, there's words of encouragement, words of support. And in a way, I'm not directly impacted. I wasn't hurt. And, you know, I haven't lost anyone in my family, but everyone feels the same pain. Everyone feels the same loss, and it's overwhelming to see the messages of support. And we just, yeah, we're working towards making sure that everyone has a path towards healing and that we emerge out of this stronger.

MG: We found you the morning after the incident sitting alone on a curb back at the site of the festival. And I know that you've been in touch with families who have been affected by this. What are you saying to them? What can you offer them?

RJ AQUINO: The same thing that, you know, we've been telling everyone who we want to help is we're going to start by just being present. We're going to start by making sure that you know we're available and we can work it out together to figure out what you need and how we can, again, make sure to focus on the healing and to get through this.

MG: What kind of support does the community need at the most right now? Again, so many people are, and as you said, it can be overwhelming at points, but so many people are trying to help and want to help. What does the community need right now, do you think?

RJ AQUINO: Right now, the community is grieving. Filipino BC, I'm so proud of my team because we've been working day and night to try to provide support to community members who have been, not just been directly impacted, but are feeling all of the feelings. They are having a hard time figuring out how to process these feelings or lack of feelings or just understanding what they're feeling. Last night, I was, we had organized, I guess just volunteer, we did a check-in with our volunteers. The City of Vancouver was generous enough to provide a space for us to connect mental health professionals with our volunteers, and we really want to make sure that everyone has a space to express themselves. The community isn't as well versed in navigating issues around mental health as we should be, so we're connecting with, again, mental health professionals and other institutions that can provide that in a safe and formal space. So we're starting with that, and really through that, this entire process, ensuring that people are not just healthy mentally, but physically. Like I guess I'm reacting to what I heard last night that people aren't eating. People aren't, you know, necessarily aware that they're not taking care of themselves. So, you know, making sure that their network extends beyond to, basically, their network extends now to include us so that we can provide, you know, meals, someone to talk to, or someone to just go for a walk with.

MG: I'm going to let you go, but how are you taking care of yourself?

RJ AQUINO: I think it's just the same thing that I tell everybody is that if you, if you're still trying to figure things out, if you’re still trying to process what you're feeling and what you want to do, the first thing that I found is most helpful is to find somebody to help and make sure that they don't feel alone. And that way, I don't feel alone.

MG: It's been a really hard week, and I really do appreciate you taking the time in the midst of all of it to talk to us. I wish you the very best, and obviously, so many people from this country, but right around the world, are thinking about your community as well. RJ, thank you.

RJ AQUINO: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: RJ Aquino is chair of Filipino BC.

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AGEING AND DESIGN

Guest: Patricia Moore

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway. This year, we have been exploring all the questions around getting older. This is in our ongoing series, As We Age. And something that's come up a few times, the practical difficulties that come with navigating everyday life as you get older, whether it may be you need a ramp instead of stairs, maybe it's doors that open easier or perhaps are a bit wider. These type of infrastructure adjustments are part of something called universal or inclusive design, the idea of designing things for the most people possible. This is not a new idea. Back in the 1970s, one young designer was ahead of her time in thinking about this, and so she transformed herself from a 30-something into an 85-year-old.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: This is Pat Moore. She is 31. Dressed as an older woman, she took to the streets across the country to learn the lessons of ageing.

PATRICIA MOORE: The motivation was born out of pure frustration watching what was happening in New York City, which is the capital of engineering and design in this country, and realizing that we were deliberately designing a Darwinian society, this survival of the fittest.

MG: Patricia Moore went on to become a leading figure in inclusive design, something that she continues to fight for. She is in Phoenix, Arizona this morning. Patricia, good morning.

PATRICIA MOORE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: This persona that, it’s so interesting what you did. This persona that you created was known as Old Pat. Tell me where this came from. Some of this, the idea in part, the inspiration for this came from your grandmother, right?

PATRICIA MOORE: I think definitely being raised with my grandparents in our home in Buffalo made a tremendous difference in my attitude about elders and ageing. And when I entered New York City to practice design as the only female at Raymond Loewy's New York offices, and Loewy is considered the father of American product design. He did things like the Coke bottle and Skylab. And I realized we had tremendous ageism. And in fact, as a designer, I was told in briefs that we didn't design for those people. So that really, the frustration of having a great love of my elders and then working in a way that I was excluding them, that gave birth to the opportunity to look closer at why were we so afraid to age.

MG: And I mean, I had read that your grandmother struggled to open a refrigerator door or something?

PATRICIA MOORE: I was a really little girl helping her in the kitchen one day, and I heard this little cry and realized that my grandmother's arthritis had made it so painful she couldn't open the door of her refrigerator. And I'm sure that that memory stuck with me as I trained, you know, and as I began working as a designer. But it wasn't until I went to one of those obligatory parties in New York, and I was almost out the door when someone stopped by saying hello, and I had to respond, of course. And it was Barbara Kelly, the makeup artist for Saturday Night Live. And I remember the moment where I literally just said to her, could you make me look 85? And she said, sure, you know, because she's from Brooklyn. And for her, it was very matter of fact, she was making coneheads and all those great early characters on SNL. And two weeks later, I was on an aircraft going to a conference in Ohio to meet with architects, trying to define how elders should live. And I appeared as one of them, and nobody recognized me. No one spoke with me. I was completely ignored, and I realized I had stumbled into something very powerful.

MG: What did she do, as you mentioned, I mean, she's a legendary makeup artist. What did she do to make you look 85?

PATRICIA MOORE: Well, it was the Mrs. Doubtfire treatment. You know, you cast your head in plaster, and then they make moulds and latex pieces, and they glue those onto your face. It’s a two to three-hour process just to do the face. But what was really important was to take away all my innate abilities. I was actually 26 when I started, 31 when I finished. And so I had to have curvature of the spine. My legs didn't work quite right. I couldn't see clearly through the contact lenses that we used, which were semi-opaque. My ears were plugged. My fingers were wrapped, and I wore gloves. I was living in the shell of a woman in her 80s, even though I was in my 20s.

MG: When you went out as Old Pat, what was life like and what were some of the things that you found hardest to navigate in a world that many people believe has been designed for younger people?

PATRICIA MOORE: So I would either be greeted with smiles and nods, people were kind, they held the door, they took my arm as I crossed the road, or again, the abject failure to see me as a fellow human, ignoring me, or even being cruel to me. On two occasions, I was mugged. On the second, I was beaten by a gang of very young boys. They couldn't have been much older than 12. And so we had all these great extremes from good to bad and everything in between.

MG: What did you learn about the world when going out as an older person?

PATRICIA MOORE: That probably the most important thing is for us to stay socially involved. As hard as it is to make new friends, when you lose a friend, you must do that. It's social isolation that actually is causing the greatest amount of difficulty in late life. And loneliness is an epidemic, not just for our elders, but for people of all ages who find themselves living alone or without family and friends for support. So work really hard on those extra activities, stay involved in your community, and you will find that because you're sharing with others who are caring and involved in your life, you're able to be involved in their lives, and it all comes together quite beautifully. But it's not an easy proposal growing old.

MG: Physically, how difficult was it to get around as an older person?

PATRICIA MOORE: Well, depending on what characterization I was doing, because we actually did nine different women. So if I was using a wheelchair, no matter where I was in North America, because I did research in Canada as well, just coming against, you know, the barriers that are built into the environment by design.

MG: At the edge of the curb, for example.

PATRICIA MOORE: Exactly. And so without the help of others, there were times I had to simply give up on trying to do something I wanted to do. If I was just walking with my cane or a stick, it was often much easier. But by the end of the day, I was emotionally exhausted by people who were unkind and cruel.

MG: How did your experiences as Old Pat go about changing how you looked at design?

PATRICIA MOORE: Well, I always looked at design as being a helpmate and not a hindrance. But of course, design was more often than not a hindrance. It was actually my colleagues who had an attitudinal change. And then as we came together with this recognition that design was meant to create inclusivity and equity, that we were to work with empathy and not create a hierarchy where the best body was the body that would be able to utilize a product. We're still fighting for a lot of that equity today, particularly when it comes to online services. So if you're an elder with low vision and reduction of hearing, managing your finances with online banking is difficult, if not impossible. And of course, what we saw through COVID, we had so many elders throughout the world who were unable to go online and make appointments for their vaccinations. And who helped them? The younger people, their grandchildren, friends, neighbours. So we still have to work as a community because there are going to be some inequities in late life by design. But we're certainly fighting harder and winning more of those daily battles for this, making sure everything works for all ages and abilities.

MG: Why do you think that we've designed a world that doesn't work for all ages and abilities? What's at the root of that?

PATRICIA MOORE: Well, unfortunately, the isms are hard to explain, aren't they? Whether it's racism or age bias, the isms are all the same. They're born in hate. They're borne in a lack of understanding, consideration and caring. And so we always have to fight to balance those scales. It takes people who really, in a word, give a damn to go against what has been the easy way and be more inclusive. And certainly, we're seeing today in all of our schools in design and engineering and architecture, I don't know that there's a program that isn't focused on exactly what I started out to do in the 70s. It has become the way we work.

MG: How does empathy play into the work that you've done over the course of your career?

PATRICIA MOORE: When you look at a situation or an opportunity not just from your vantage point, but from the vantage point of everyone around you and anyone that you haven't yet to meet, I think you're doing the due diligence of design. You're producing dignity by design. And again, I can't imagine starting any project without that outcome in mind. I want all people to be equal in the outcomes I'm hoping to do with creativity and innovation. That's my job. That's my joy.

MG: When you're out in the world, is there something that you see that just drives you around the bend, that you think that is a clear lack of attention paid to universal design?

PATRICIA MOORE: Oh, I suppose every time I'm in an airport, you know, I just, I don't know where to look first. It's absolutely terrifying to me.

MG: What's terrifying about being in the airport?

PATRICIA MOORE: Well, I was struck by a car in New Zealand in 2017, and that completely changed my life. It turned everything upside down. My right leg was crushed, and it had to be rebuilt. And it's, you know, never going to be the same. And so when I travel, I have a cane. And in the early days, I was in a wheelchair using those silly little vehicles that are beeping at us as we go through the airport. None of that works at all well. Just that transfer experience is a reason a lot of people just stop travelling, because it's emotionally painful as well as physically painful.

MG: Is there, just finally, is there a piece of advice that you would give your younger self? Before you learned what you know now, what would you tell your younger self?

PATRICIA MOORE: Save every penny. Save as much money as you can. Sadly, ageing well right now is coming down to finance, and that's all over the world. I would have had fewer nights out and put more money in the bank because we're all very frightened about what's happening with our finances. Do we have enough money? Are we going to outlive our money? I don't know of anyone my age who doesn't think about that on a daily basis. That's quite a shame.

MG: And that's an equity piece to the ageing process as well, right, that not all of us will age equally, and what you can afford may ease that passage as you get older.

PATRICIA MOORE: Exactly. Yeah. The quality of life shouldn't be about money, but there you go, it is.

MG: The work that you've done is really, really interesting. I mean, I think it's fascinating. Just the process of it is incredible, but also what you have learned and what we still have to learn as a society. I mean, I can't tell whether to end the conversation feeling encouraged or discouraged. You're doing the work, but there's still a lot of work to do.

PATRICIA MOORE: Well, give yourself a pat on the back, Matt, because programs like this help someone. We're reaching out to someone who might not have thought about these things, who actually is in a position to change outcomes, to do more, to be a better person, to be a better CEO. And when we all wake up and realize we're in this together, the great human family will survive. But I think what we're talking about today is making sure we thrive.

MG: It's really good to talk to you about the work that you've done. I appreciate it. Thank you for speaking with us.

PATRICIA MOORE: Thank you, Matt, and I look forward to the next time.

MG: Patricia Moore is an award-winning industrial designer. She was in Phoenix, Arizona. Well, coming up after your regional update, do you remember at the start of this month when US President Donald Trump announced his global tariff plan? He had that giant board with all of the countries and the names of the countries and the list of the tariffs, and it was a prop that a lot of people were trying to understand. And then just six days later, the president hit pause for 90 days on most of the countries on that giant Board to leave room to negotiate. Well, that negotiation process apparently is underway, but there's a lot of confusion around what is actually happening. Coming up, we'll hear how Japan, the European Union and South Africa are managing tariff negotiations. Is there something to be learned from what they are up to in terms of how we might approach negotiating with the US president under Prime Minister Mark Carney? I’ll tell you more about that coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in just 90 seconds. Stay with us.

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CANADIAN TRAVEL BUCKET LIST PROMO

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. Well, you might be done voting for your next MP, but there is still time to cast a vote for The Current's ultimate travel list. Just a few hours, though, for you to vote. Of the thousands of submissions we received, we narrowed it down to 20 finalists. This is all about people aren't travelling to the United States anymore. Where should we go in this country? Where are the places that every Canadian needs to visit in Canada? If you go to the website, cbc.ca/thecurrent, you can see the list and you can vote. Over this month, we have heard from 20 Canadians living coast to coast to coast, celebrating what this country has to offer, from hidden gems to very popular tourist spots.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: You'll never feel as close to nature as you will in Bonavista. You are literally surrounded by earth, water, wind and sky, and lots of wind at that.

SPEAKER: Going out onto the beach first thing in the morning, and you're just surrounded by the sound of the waves crashing in on the beach. There's a couple people out surfing, and it's one of the most peaceful places I've ever been.

SPEAKER: We didn't even know about it before we went there. It is the only park in Canada with natural prairie grassland. It's also the premier dark sky location because there is no light pollution.

SPEAKER: We're nestled on these gorgeous waters of Lake Huron. It's one of those things that you don't understand until you're here. There's just something about this place. There's seven different vibrant First Nations across the island from tip to tip. All of the communities are so small. The pace of life is so fantastic to the point where in the summer and our heyday, it feels like you're overwhelmed and busy because there's three people ahead of you at the grocery store.

SPEAKER: There's all kinds of grizzlies, there's a great big elk herd, there's cougars, there’s wolves, there's deer, and when you hike through there or just on a regular day when you drive into town to have an ice cream, you often see lots of those animals. The feeling that you get when you go into the Rockies is it's a very different place.

SPEAKER: We don't have to go far to find beauty in Atlantic Canada. And when the bucket list came out, I looked to see what was on there that I had already kind of said to myself, where am I going to go? Even going to Ontario from Prince Edward Island, that's not a stretch, and keeping it in Canada has served us really well.

MG: Just a sampling of some of the places and champions we have featured this past month, from the BC coast to the Rockies in Alberta, to the grasslands of Saskatchewan, to the coast of Newfoundland. Well, tomorrow on The Current, we will announce the winners, the top 10 places on The Current's ultimate travel bucket list. Mr. Rick Mercer will join me for the big reveal, but you can still vote today until 1 p.m. Eastern Time. Just go to the website, cbc.ca/thecurrent. And we don't want to start any sort of inter-provincial animosity here. I'm not tipping my hat to one part of this country or the other, but I will say that Atlantic Canada is really representing in the vote thus far. So for listeners out west, listeners up north, you may want to redouble your efforts in this final push. That's all I'm saying. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent to cast your ballot. Do your thing, Canada, and we will unveil the top 10 list tomorrow.

TARIFFS

Guests: Elizabeth Beattie, Magnus Lund Nielsen, Carien Du Plessis

MG: This is The Current. My name is Matt Galloway. 90 deals in 90 days. That was the promise from the Trump administration after it put a pause on global tariffs to leave room to negotiate with countries one by one. Thus far, nearly one month has passed since then. And yesterday, the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, told CNBC there is actually one deal in the can.

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HOWARD LUTNICK: I have a deal done, done, done, done, but I need to wait for their prime minister and their parliament to give its approval, which I expect shortly.

HOST: What country?

HOWARD LUTNICK: I'm not going to tell you what country. I’ll let the president.

HOST: It's just you and me here and a couple million people hopefully watching.

HOWARD LUTNIC: I'll let the president decide. So, and then there are country after country where we're just working through the details. But you have to remember, they have prime ministers, they have parliament, they have to work through their process, but all of these are going to be coming. And what they're going to do is they're going to be incredibly smart, incredibly thoughtful. They're going to unleash the ability for us to export to them to grow. And they are going to also protect our industry so we can grow.

MG: So we don't know what country Howard Lutnick is talking about there when he says one deal is in place. The US Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said that no trade deal is done until Donald Trump himself announces it. But a number of countries right now are actually negotiating with the US. Perhaps soon, that could include Canada under the new Liberal government. Today, we are going to hear from a few of those countries about how those negotiations are going. We begin in Japan where after the first round of talks, Donald Trump said there had been big progress. Elizabeth Beattie is a journalist based in Tokyo, covers business and economics. Elizabeth, hello.

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: Hey, thanks for having me.

MG: Glad to have you here. We heard from Howard Lutnick, says that they have one deal. Do you think that might potentially be with Japan?

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: I think it's unlikely that Japan is the country in question. At the moment, Japan's top negotiator, Ryosei Akazawa, is en route for Washington for further talks. And from what officials have said, there's still quite a bit more discussion to go before the deal is reached. Akazawa made some comments to the media here saying, you know, everyday Japanese companies are suffering losses, he's committed to making progress. So it seems certainly unlikely that he would have made a deal before those second round of meetings start back up again.

MG: When Donald Trump announced that big laundry list of tariffs in early April, what was the public reaction in Japan?

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: I think there was a sense of shock. Tariffs have dominated the news cycle here in Japan since they were announced, and a lot of wishful thinking that a deal will be reached. But certainly shocking. Various industries, including Japan's very large auto industry was reeling when those tariffs were announced.

MG: There was an opposition politician who said that the US approach to these tariffs was extortion. Do people share that opinion? That's a pretty strong word to use.

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: Yeah, so Shinji Oguma, he's quite an outspoken figure, and he recently just gave another speech at the press club here saying America is trying to mug us. Those comments would certainly tap into a part of the population in Japan. They would resonate with some. But yeah, he is an opposition figure as well. So it's kind of the issue of being a little bit politicized perhaps as well.

MG: Is there any sense as to what the Trump administration actually wants from Japan?

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: I think that's a little bit tricky to say. There's been kind of leaks in the Japanese media that maybe the US has been a little bit opaque. Trump has been very effusive that there's progress being made, but it's a little bit hard to say there's a few areas of compatibility where a deal could be reached. Japan places tariffs on foreign rice, and the US wants Japan to import more agricultural products. So that's potentially an area of compatibility. But yeah, the auto tariffs are a very big concern for Japan. And it's a little bit difficult to say, it's a little bit difficult to see them being completely discarded at this stage.

MG: Tell me more about that and how worried the Japanese auto sector is right now.

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: It's certainly a big concern. So Akazawa, who, as I mentioned, is departing for Washington, he told reporters before he left that he'd been in discussion with automakers. And they had mentioned, you know, one automaker in particular had mentioned that his company was suffering a million loss, a million-dollar loss every hour. So there's certainly a real concern from the auto industry here. They export a large, they're one of the, the US is like a very large market for auto exports, so it's very valuable for Japan. There's a hope that some wiggle room will be negotiated, but a serious impact for Japanese automakers here.

MG: What about more broadly in the Japanese economy? I mean, before this agreement to pause the tariffs on that giant board that Donald Trump held up, the US was going to impose a rate of 24, 24% on Japan. There are already concerns in the Japanese economy around inflation and the cost of staples, eggs and rice and things like that. How seriously would that have impacted the Japanese economy?

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: I think that would have serious impact. Like you mentioned, Japan has a number of domestic challenges itself which it's been grappling with. Even the tariffs in their current form are highly concerning on a political level, but also for Japanese consumers. There is the fact that Japan's currency is quite weak against the dollar. It's strengthened recently a little bit, but imported goods are very expensive for Japanese households. Inflation is also beginning to hit Japan, so grocery bills are increasing. It's something we see, you know, I see every time I go to a supermarket here or buy something from the convenience store. Salaries are pretty low in Japan. So even a little bit of inflation is felt, and tariffs on top of that kind of culminate various underlying domestic factors in Japan. So highly concerning.

MG: And so just finally, as you said, the talks are set to get underway. Donald Trump has said there has been big progress already. What's your sense as to how things will go over the next few weeks?

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: It's a little hard to say. Japan is being incredibly diplomatic. There was definitely a reaction, as I mentioned, when the tariffs were announced, and that extended to the government officials. But yeah, Japanese officials are being incredibly Diplomatic. They're still pushing for a deal that isn't going to impede the Japanese economy too severely. But a little criticism is being leaked. A little criticism has been voiced. There's a sense that Donald Trump is who they have to deal with, that administration. So I think we're going to see a lot of diplomatic kind of footsteps in the next few days and weeks.

MG: Elizabeth, thank you very much for this.

ELIZABETH BEATTIE: Thanks.

MG: Elizabeth Beattie is a journalist based in Tokyo. A huge piece of the tariff puzzle is the European Union. According to the United States, the total value of trade in goods between the US and the EU was just over $975 billion US in 2024 alone. In the Oval Office earlier this month, Donald Trump aired some of his grievances about that trade relationship.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: The European Union's been very bad to us. They don't take our cars, like Japan in that sense. They don't take our agricultural product. They don't take anything practically. And yet, they send millions of cars in a year, Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, BMWs. They're sending millions and millions of cars into the US, but we don't have a car that's been sold to the European Union or other places. But let's go for the European Union.

MG: Magnus Lund Nielsen is an EU politics reporter at Euractiv. It's a news outlet that covers European affairs. He's in Brussels. Magnus, hello to you.

MAGNUS LUND NIELSEN: Hi, Matt. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thank you for being here. Donald Trump says the EU has been very bad to us. Is there any merit to that complaint?

MAGNUS LUND NIELSEN: It depends on who you ask. Of course, Trump believes so. He is right insofar that there's a trade deficit on goods between the European Union and the US. There is a trade surplus on services. So it depends on where you put the needle. There's something to talk about, yes.

MG: Do you have a sense as to, I mean, this is the question that I asked Elizabeth about Japan. Is there any sense as to what the United States is looking for from the EU?

MAGNUS LUND NIELSEN: No, and that is frankly the big issue here. I think I attend a lot of the press briefings that the European Commission holds, and I think what stems from a lot of them is this sheer apathy. They have a hard time figuring out what actually is expected from the Europeans. From the clip you just played, you can tell that he's awfully mad about Europeans not buying American cars. Well, we don't do that because we have certain safety standards that American cars tend to not live up to. Same goes for the potential import of American food, because we have some health standards here that doesn't quite strictly exactly align with that of the US. The US Commerce Secretary Lutnick went on Fox News a few weeks ago saying that the Europeans don't buy the US beef because the US beef is strong and the European beef is weak. And we probably would say that more to do with the fact that we have pretty strict rules in place concerning whether you can treat your cattle with hormones or you can inject a chicken with chlorine and so forth. And all these things are, the European Commission has said, are sacrosanct. I mean, they're not on the table. And so if he's looking for us to buy more Cybertrucks, they would have to revise how they design a Cybertruck so you wouldn't be so much put your life at risk as a pedestrian.

MG: So in the absence of clarity or any real interest from the European, members of the European Union in bending to what perhaps Donald Trump is looking for, if the tariffs that he's promised go through after this 90-day pause, what is that going to mean to the EU?

MAGNUS LUND NIELSEN: Obviously, this is going to hurt the EU. I think the reading here in Brussels is that it's probably going to hurt the Americans a bit more, and so we probably won't get to that. As our good colleague Elizabeth said from Japan, I think the diplomatic approach is the same in Brussels, that you're trying to maybe see and waiting this out a bit and not playing the sort of the hardball game that the Chinese seem to be playing where they’re one-upping Trump, at least every other day in the beginning of this whole fight. I think you're taking this pretty cautiously and waiting and seeing for a bit.

MG: But I mean, it's interesting because the president of the European Commission apparently has not actually met with Donald Trump or had an official meeting. They sort of ran into each other at the Pope's funeral, but they have not had a meeting. He has been critical of the EU. She said that there is an unpredictable tariff policy of the US administration. What does that say to you about the relationship or lack thereof?

MAGNUS LUND NIELSEN: You're touching on something extremely important there. Trump seems to be pretending to live in a world where the European Union doesn't exist and applying a sort of a divide and conquer tactic where he'd much rather speak to Macron and he'd much rather speak to Meloni of Italy. The great thing is that just about every European leader, even Meloni, who is by no account a European jubilant, has said, well, you have to take these talks with the European Commission. And it has been like, the European commission, as what we understand, has tried to get a meeting in place between Trump and the European Commission president von der Leyen for quite some time now, but it has been kind of difficult. And I think the fact that they sort of have to like run into each other on the sidelines of the post-funeral the other day is telling of how difficult it is to get the meeting in place.

MG: Could I just ask you finally about other things that might complicate this story, one of which is, you know, Greenland and the sovereignty of Greenland, which Donald Trump seems obsessed with. The other is the issue of Ukraine and ensuring that Ukraine can defend itself. How does that factor into what we're talking about?

MAGNUS LUND NIELSEN: It's of course a part of the whole schism here. I'm Danish myself, and I have family in Greenland. And so this of course hits very close to heart. I think the Danish prime minister, if I had to talk about her for a minute, has been quite successful in turning this into a European issue. So this speaks into the wider transatlantic spad we’re finding ourselves in right now. And on the question of Ukraine, I think that also is testimony to the fact that Europeans don't want to upset Washington more than they strictly need to right now. And that's also why you'd be interested in finding some common ground down the line.

MG: We'll see whether that ground can be found. Magnus, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

MAGNUS LUND NIELSEN: Thank you.

MG: Magnus Lund Nielsen is EU politics reporter at Euractiv. It's a news outlet that covers European affairs. He was in Brussels. Well, while a trade partner like the EU might be pretty high priority for US negotiators, others are further down the list. And in the case of South Africa, it's all happening against the backdrop of a deteriorating diplomatic relationship between South Africa and the United States. Carien Du Plessis is the Southern African correspondent for the Africa Report. She's in Johannesburg. Carien, hello to you.

CARIEN DU PLESSIS: Hi. Good afternoon.

MG: Good to have you back on the program.

CARIEN DU PLESSIS: Well, good afternoon from here.

MG: It's in the morning here, yes. When Donald Trump announced those tariffs in April, South Africa was targeted on that giant board of his with a tariff rate of 30%. What would that do to the South African economy?

CARIEN DU PLESSIS: I think it would have a great effect in pockets of the economy. It, as far as I understand it, it could affect the agriculture sector very badly. And agriculture is, you know, it's got pockets of activity, especially in the rural areas where it matters the most. So for instance, the citrus industry, I think about, I think, yeah, I'm not sure the percentage, but there's a great percentage from the citrus industry that goes, I think 7% of exports from the citrus industry goes to America. And there are entire towns that were built on exporting citrus to America. So those towns will effectively face collapse unless they can negotiate, you know, renegotiate another trade partner, but it could take a while. And I mean, these, and also our economy's been, the agriculture sector's been benefiting from the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act, which offered a tariff-free access to the American market on certain products, as, you know, as it is for the rest of the continent. So yeah, so it will have quite a profound effect, and it also comes at a time when South Africa can't really afford it.

MG: So how's the government trying to deal with this? One of the things we've heard from the EU and from Japan is that people are trying to figure out in some ways what the US wants. How has the South African government responded?

CARIEN DU PLESSIS: Yeah, I think we're also in the same boat, trying to figure out what they want. I think we're quite sure, you know, Donald Trump has attacked our domestic policy quite a bit. The Expropriation Act, which was signed into law, I think it was around the time when Trump was sworn in. He's attacked our race-based empowerment policies. He has attacked, well, he has not quite explicitly attacked it that much, but the case that South Africa brought against Israel at the International Court of Justice. I think that that's also been attacked by a lot of Trump's advisor or people around him. So yeah, so I suspect that we'll have to tweak some of our domestic policies. It seems like our president appointed Goldman Sachs as advisors. There was a report in the Wall Street Journal. There was nothing on the record on this, but he does seem to have strengthened the advisers around him, and they seem to suggest that there should be tweaks to the Expropriation Act perhaps.

MG: And do you think the government would be willing to negotiate on things like that, on that, or perhaps withdrawing, maybe modifying the ICJ case against Israel?

CARIEN DU PLESSIS: Yeah, the ICJ case I think is a non-negotiable. I think that's already underway in any case. So, and I think it's one of the things that the government feels very strongly about. But I think expropriation, the Expropriation Act, it does have some technical issues which could be sorted out. And I think the government would be willing to do that. And then also the race-based empowerment policies, I have picked up that, you know, that there's a big debate in government about this, but there might be a willingness to tweak that as well. And I mean, this is for the benefit of the economy. I think at the moment, we are in a bad situation. Our economic growth is slow. We have been looking for investment to boost it. We've been looking for, you know, for more trade, and that will, you know, that will dent that. So. But I mean, there is a positive. Last week, the President Ramaphosa apparently had a phone call with President Donald Trump. As far as I understand it, President Ramaphosa made the call. How he got Donald Trump to pick up, I'm not sure. But I believe it involved some golf, you know, some old, old golf players, golf buddies of Trump. So there's progress, I think. But yeah, but the, but it's low at the moment, the diplomatic relations. Our ambassador got expelled I think last month. We don't have an ambassador there. There's no American ambassador here. So it's difficult.

MG: Can I ask you just before I let you go, we just have a few seconds left, but one of the things that we've seen in this country when Donald Trump came after Canada, talking about 51st State and we don't need you, there was this huge rallying around the flag. You saw the sense of patriotism and people kind of gathering and saying, this is who we are and this is what we're going to stand up against and this is what we’re going to stand up for. Has that happened in South Africa right now?

CARIEN DU PLESSIS: No, it's not quite that simple. I think there is, I mean, there is an anti-American sentiment. There was an anti-American sentiment even before, although we love the movies and the music. The soft power is strong. But there is a section of the population that are happy, that is happy that Trump is listening. White right-wing section of the population, they feel that their complaints haven't been listened to. And they now feel that there is someone powerful listening to them. So there's been, you know, marches towards the American embassy sort of, you know, saying thank you, Trump, and some people who went and applied for the refugee status that he opened for white Afrikaans speaking farmers. So yeah, I mean, and that was based on the fear of violence, you know, just the general crime that's happening in South Africa. So it's divided. But yeah, no burning of American flags yet.

MG: Okay. Well, that's not really happening here either, but people are rallying around the Canadian flag. Carien, thank you very much.

CARIEN DU PLESSIS: That's positive.

MG: That is positive.

CARIEN DU PLESSIS: Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Carien Du Plessis is the Southern African correspondent for the Africa Report. That is The Current for this Wednesday. It's the 30th of April. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. We're going to leave you with some music from the Canadian indie rock band, July Talk. One of the singers of July Talk, Peter Dreimanis, just made his big screen debut. He's a singer, also an actor now. He plays a singing vampire in Michael B. Jordan's film Sinners, which is currently in theatres, getting great reviews and doing great box office as well. Here he is in his day job, perhaps for now, until he picks up the acting bug a little bit more. It's July Talk and “After This.” I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: “After This” by July Talk]

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CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Wednesday, April 30, 2025 Episode Transcript

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