Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The Current Transcript for March 7, 2025

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

BOB EZRIN: For the longest while, all of us looked southward for our best friends. And what we've learned very quickly is that our best friends are to the east and the west of us. Our best friends are here in Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's been a hell of a week. Canadians have been left shocked, stunned and rattled by actions from our closest neighbour and ally. And in the face of news that's changing hour by hour, people in this country have also pulled together and rallied around a sense of patriotism about who we are, who we aren't, and what we're willing to fight for. In 30 minutes, how some Canadians are showing that in their own lives, from a superstar music producer who is renouncing his ties to a country he says he doesn't recognize anymore, to others who want to bring people together on Parliament Hill this weekend for an Elbows Up rally. Also this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: I know there's lots of talk about the economy. Those are realities. But we cannot have a strong economy if we don't have an accessible, dependable health care system.

MG: It has been five years since COVID arrived, and nurses are still feeling it. In an hour, checking in with two frontline workers on the state of nursing in this country at a time when health care more broadly remains under strain. But we begin with a conversation many of us have been avoiding: How to talk to our ageing parents about hard choices and getting older. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

AGING

Guests: Laura Tamblyn Watts, Samir Sinha

MG: There is not much that I can guarantee, especially now. But there is one thing I know to be true: We are all getting older and ageing affects us all. Collectively, Canada's population is getting older at a fast pace. In just five years, almost a quarter of Canadians will be over the age of 65. And so in the coming weeks, we are going to spend some time on this program talking about the hard choices and conversations facing older adults and those who love them. This morning, I'm joined by two specialists on ageing. Doctor Samir Sinha is a geriatrician and clinician scientist with Sinai Health and the University Health Network in Toronto. He's also Director of Health Policy Research with the National Institute on Ageing. And this year, he is a visiting fellow at the University of Oxford, and that is where we've reached him. And Laura Tamblyn Watts is president of CanAge and the author of “Let's Talk About Ageing Parents: A Real-Life Guide to Solving Problems with 27 Essential Conversations.” She is with me in studio. Good morning to you both.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Good morning.

SAMIR SINHA: Good morning.

MG: Doctor Sinha, how prepared are most people for what may come at them as they get older?

SAMIR SINHA: I don't think people are really well prepared at all. I think generally, we don't want to think about the prospect of getting older, especially in a society that talks all the time about anti-aging and the problems of ageing. One of the challenges I find in my practice is that I've got families and older patients who are like, how did I get here and what do I do now? And not a lot of forethought that went in in many of the cases, and then really just trying to scramble and figure that out. And this is why I really think that, you know, ageing well is something where if you really, you know, make preparations throughout your life in very thoughtful ways, you can really write a much better third chapter, if you will.

MG: Can I just pick up on that? You use the phrase ageing well. This is something that we all want, but why do you think, Samir, that we aren't comfortable talking about getting old?

SAMIR SINHA: I think when we think about getting old, we think about all the negative things that could happen. We think about the idea that we're more likely to become frail and less likely to do the same things we were doing when we were younger. We may be living with dementia. We may need to be relying on other people for care. I think it's just the overwhelming prospect of the negative aspects of ageing that really kind of create a mental block and then don't allow people to have the conversations or take the time to think about how to plan for a more successful future.

MG: Laura, pick up on that because part of it is about us getting older. Part of it is also the conversations that we have with our loved ones as we all get older.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: And we're not very good at having those conversations. When I wrote the book “Let's Talk About Ageing Parents”, I was trying to get to the point that we're trying to solve. Is it that mom can't stay in the house because she might fall down the stairs? Is it because she lives in a rural community and she's far from health care? Is it that because you're worried that she doesn't see anyone all day? Like what is the problem we're trying to solve for? And then we can flip things on our head. Many times, people will say, oh, we become the parents to our parents. Like we've all heard that. No, no, we don't. We are always the kids.

MG: Your parents are still your parents.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Your parents are still your parents. And again, I use these terms in very broad and inclusive terms. They still remember you at 16, you know, crashing the car and leaving your hockey gear in the front hall. So we have to think about ways to have these conversations that are respectful. One of the best things about parents, they love to give you advice. I wanted to get my dad to redo his will, who's a lawyer and hadn't redone it in 20 years. I asked him his advice because I also needed to redo my will. Turns out we both benefited.

MG: What does that phrase ageing well mean in the context of this?

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: We think about what it is that's important to us. So I mean, many people will think, okay, well, I don't want this or I don't want that. But what we don't do is turn it on the other. What's most important to you and then work backwards from there. We kind of do that in our thinking, or we're supposed to do that in our thinking about finances, but we don't do it in thinking about ageing. And part of it is because we are so terrified.

MG: You mentioned your dad. Can I ask you about… both your parents are still alive?

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Yeah, they're listening to the show for sure.

MG: Excellent. I'm glad that they're healthy and well. How do you think about this conversation when it comes to your own life?

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Like anything else. It’s do as you say, not as I do. But there's lots of tricks to the trade. For instance, if I'm worried that someone's going to fall down the stairs, that's fair. 56% of falls are severe. If you do fall and break a hip, your chances of dying in the first year are more than 24%. Your chances of dying within two years are 40. But if you put a second banister, you will reduce your falls wrecks by more than half. I'm still working on the second banister, but part of that is patience. And I think it's important to understand that people are going to address these issues in the way that they want to, and we have to be a bit respectful for that. I would love to swoop in. I think we'd all love to swoop in with what I think people should do, but that's never really very helpful.

MG: Samir, can I ask, if you mind, about how you navigate these conversations, we're going to talk more about some of the specifics, but how you navigate them in your own life with your parents?

SAMIR SINHA: Well, yeah. I think, you know, my advantage as being a geriatrician is that I think I've learned, you know, a real key question, which is what matters most to you? And certainly, for my older parents, you know, they both are retired in Winnipeg, and they love living there. But I get a bit nervous because they had two sons, but one is in Toronto and the other is in Baltimore. So of course, my brother and I get nervous because we think, well, you know, eventually, you know, they might need more support, they might need some help, and we're not just ready at hand to get groceries or do the things that we would love to do if they were in the neighbourhood. And so this prompts conversations, but open conversations, which we've been having for years now, saying, well, are you happy living where you are? You know, you're away from us. What matters most to you? And I think we've really come to, you know, some good understandings. We haven't worked out all the details, but we have the broad sketches of what makes sense now, what may make sense in the future, and how we might negotiate those potentials as a family.

MG: These are hard conversations to have and hard questions to raise, though, right?

SAMIR SINHA: They are because I don't want to think about my parents any other way than my mom, who's, you know, an avid gardener. My dad loves to golf and read and go for long walks. That's how I've always known them for 48 years since I've been on Earth. And so I always want to see them full of potential and doing things. But I also am worried about the call that will happen in future, where I hear about a diagnosis or there's a new concern that happens. I don't want to see them suffer. I don't want to see them run into challenges. I always like to say to my patients, you know, great defence is a good offence, right? If we can be proactive about these things, then when these things happen, it makes them less uncertain, and it allows us to move forward together more easily.

MG: Where people live and where they want to live is such a big part of this. One of the things that we've been hearing as we've put this series together is that obviously, I think it's fair to say older people want to age at home even when that gets increasingly difficult. We paid a visit to Linda Holly, who lives near St. Catharines. She lives on her own, and she was having a home safety check from a local community support service. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Linda, have you ever had a fall?

LINDA: Oh, yeah. Plenty.

SPEAKER: When's the last time you had a fall?

LINDA: About a week ago.

SPEAKER: And where was that?

LINDA: In the grocery store.

SPEAKER: Oh, dear. Were you able to get up?

LINDA: Two men lifted me.

SPEAKER: Oh, that was nice of them.

LINDA: And other times, there was my balance nurse.

SPEAKER: Okay.

SPEAKER: So is there an area of your home that is of most concern to you?

LINDA: Just the bathtub.

SPEAKER: So that's your main area of concern.

LINDA: It scares me.

MG: So Doctor Sinha, she wants to stay in her home, doesn't have the mobility she used to have, and she's, as we heard, she's scared of the bathtub. How common is that?

SAMIR SINHA: It's very common because, again, most of the falls that happen are going to happen at home. They happen in places like the bathroom. They happen in places like the kitchen, for example, you know, that stair that doesn't have the extra banister, these sorts of things. Our homes were built when we were much younger and more mobile, and we have to make sure that they can support us as we age.

MG: Laura, tell me a little bit about how we go about having those conversations. Again, independence is such a key part of this, right? You heard it in her voice.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Absolutely. So I think it's important to remember that people are not the same and that relationships are not necessarily cuddly and rosy. It's not easy. How I will chat with my dad is completely different from how I chat with my mom. People don't fundamentally change. If they are proud people, if they're researchers, if they are people who don't want to deal with situations, you got to find the ways in.

MG: But their bodies are changing.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Absolutely.

MG: We're all in and around the same age, I think. And so one of the things that happens is it's us, the adult children that start to worry about your parents. You start to have those thoughts. You feel like you need to step in. You're not sure how. You're not sure what that intervention looks like. This is Donna Hicks in Ottawa telling us how she knew that her mom, Kay, could not live independently anymore.

SOUNDCLIP

DONNA HICKS: She drove down the wrong way on a main street, and I found her car keys in the freezer. She couldn't find them for two days. And when I went over and found them in the freezer and then found the kettle stuck to the stovetop so it had run out of water, I knew that she wasn't safe any more.

MG: Doctor Sinha, those are pretty clear signs that somebody needs help. If it's not that clear, how good are we, we being the adult children, at seeing the signs that the conversation needs to happen or that it needs to take a different tone?

SAMIR SINHA: Yeah. So usually, when I'm meeting with families, it's sometimes in these situations that would make me start thinking about dementia and how do we make the home safe and how do we get the right supports in place in that way? But there are challenges where I'll sometimes be assessing an older person, and it's clear to me that there are major issues here, but family members say, oh, I didn't notice that. I didn't notice anything because they're sometimes used to, you know, having the same conversations they've had for the last 20 years where they're not going to ask people about what day of the week it is or what did you have for breakfast?

MG: Is that because they feel embarrassed about that, that they feel that they don't want to put their family member in a strange position?

SAMIR SINHA: Well, two things. One is I just think that people will have the same conversation just as they would as a normal family dynamic. I think the other thing is sometimes, you just hope that what you saw isn't what you saw, or that you just hope that it'll go away. So I think there may be a little bit of denial. There's also just the lack of recognition that could happen. But I think the key is if there are concerns, to try and raise the issue and saying, you know, mom, dad, you know, I know, you know, you're determined to stay independent in this home for as long as possible, and I want to make that happen. There's some things I've been seeing recently that I'm a bit worried about. Can we talk about them? Because I want to see if there's things we can do to help you stay independent at home for as long as possible. And that's a positive way to start the conversation so that they don't feel immediately that, oh, are you taking away my keys forever? Are you taking me out of my house forever? What are you about to do to me? As opposed to what can we do together to try and honour my independence, my dignity and with respect?

MG: Laura, how do you go about framing those? In the book, you talk about what if conversations, right?

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: That's exactly it. Because one of the things we're trying to understand is can they reason it out? And that means can they reason it out in terms of mental capacity? But can they reason it out in terms of maybe denial or cost as well? So the old, you know, what happens if, you know, something happened to one of the parents or me if I moved to Singapore or something, how would you, how would you get to the grocery store? What do you think would work for you? One of the most important things we can do is have these conversations in non-confrontational ways, like hosting a series on The Current, because it then lets people say, oh, I was listening to a thing when I was driving the other day, and it really got me thinking.

MG: You could say that. Did you hear that thing?

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Absolutely. So any of these type of third party references are really important. The other thing is what's happening to their friends, right? They may not want to talk to you about you or them, but they're probably willing to tell you about what Mr. Smith and Mrs. Lee are doing and what they don't like or what their terrible daughter did or they went to some horrible retirement home, right? So sometimes, when you're having those conversations, you know perfectly well they're telling you their fears and giving you information.

MG: And you can use that as a proxy to have that extra conversation.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Absolutely. It is a proxy conversation.

MG: Let me introduce you to one other person, Ken Jeniack, who lives with his wife, Shirley. She was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Ken has gone from being a husband to also, it's not a replacement, but also being a caregiver. And we asked him how he thinks of the future.

SOUNDCLIP

KEN: The future, you know, sometimes I think about it and think about maybe we should be downsizing or whatever. But I kind of don't want to think about it, really, but I probably should be because it's probably within another four or five years, you know, I might have to do something. Right now, it’s like just going from day to day now.

MG: Laura, how common is that reaction to thinking about the future, that it's day to day?

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: It's so much what can I manage right now, right? When we looked at how our system should be set up for health and social care, we did it with the profound presumption, the assumption that family, in that case, I am using a conservative notion of family like that two parents with six kids would help, and that relationship would be one that would be a lifelong set of supports. We don't have that. In fact, we're easily six generations now or five generations in the workforce already. We no longer have a sandwich generation. I'm 53. We're in a club family generation. And people don't also do things like fall ill or die in order of age. And so part of what I think is helpful is to take age in some ways out of it. And you can kind of take a deep breath and you can say things like, oh, I was thinking, what would I do if? And then I was thinking, what would my kids do if? And then, you know, we're on that big trip for reading week. And then that horrible snowstorm happened. And the what ifs then become about situations that we need to solve for, not about you're getting older. So always start with what is the problem we're trying to solve for? And does it really have to be about being old? Or could somebody have, you know, sprained their ankle and had that same experience?

MG: It suggests that you can have the conversation almost at any time.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: In fact, better to do it. Understand that these are many small conversations. Almost nobody likes to be sat down at the kitchen table at a holiday and said, mom, dad, uncle Bob, you know, now is our time where I'm going to tell you what to do, or we need to confront these situations. One of the other thing that's important to remember is denial is not just about the older person. I'm in a sweet spot where my different older adults in my life, touchwood, are kind of okay. And I know that the minute someone loses their driver's license or the minute somebody gets a diagnosis, my life is going to change too.

MG: Which is why you, not you, but one could imagine that you would be reluctant to have a conversation like that because it's going to impact you.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Absolutely. If I turn that rock over, it means I now have to deal with whatever it is.

MG: Samir, there are many seniors who, we talked about ageing well, they're trying to live at maximum, right? They are travelling. They're trying to get their adult kids out of the house. They're remarrying. They're doing all of the things. What advice do you have for people who are trying to live to the fullest, but also be cognizant of the fact that we've never been older? Do you know what I mean? You're getting older.

SAMIR SINHA: Yeah. No, I think everybody's kind of living in the moment and just trying to make it day to day. And in the case of Ken and Shirley, here's an older couple, for example. And he's just like, I'm not trying to think about the future. I'm just trying to think about today and what we're going to get through today. But I think this is the value of having these conversations where I think, especially when you can bring in a third party like a social worker or, you know, myself as a geriatrician, where in the case of Ken and Shirley, I'd say, I know you're doing a heck of a lot as a caregiver, and you're doing what you can to support Shirley to stay at home, but we need to talk about the future, because I want to tell you about what dementia can look like in the future, what Shirley's care needs might need. How are you doing? Because if you go, this whole equation changes as well. Because then by actually breaking it down and really making it about supporting both of them, you actually can start talking about finances, what things might look like. It's a huge weight off people's shoulders because now, it's out on the table. And we talk about ageing in place, but I like to talk about ageing in the right place where I'd say, I know you want to stay at home with 24/7 care, but we don't have a government system that will allow us to do that and you don't have the savings. So let's talk about what is possible and what can be done so that you can still make the choice that's best for you. It really is amazing to see the relief and the greater certainty and a lot of that stress that can be relieved as well.

MG: Just finally, are we getting better at this? I said in the introduction that in five years, almost a quarter of Canadians will be over the age of 65. That suggests that there is urgency.

SAMIR SINHA: We're getting a bit better about this, but my goodness, I just think that so many people are not having these conversations and will have no choice but to deal with these issues. So, you know, I'm always the glass half full kind of guy. So I like to say that I think we're getting a bit better, but I'm really happy that we're having this conversation today.

MG: Are we getting better at this, Laura? I mean, the book is out there. You see it on people's shelves on the dining room table because people think that they need to have the conversations. Are we actually having those conversations?

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: I think what's really important to remember is that there is a massive urban rural split and there is a massive resourcing question. So just to kind of give a sense, we have about one pediatrician for every 2100 child and youth, people 17 and under. We have about one geriatrician for every 21,000 seniors. I spend a lot of my time in a tiny little fishing community called Sandy Cove, Nova Scotia. And if I need help in care, the Digby Hospital is closed. There's no geriatrician. There's no doctor. The exciting thing is there's lots of fun things we can actually do. We can create what's called a NORC, a naturally occurring retirement community. In my little community, I mean, the average age is about 70. Well, we can actually have someone come in and provide services to a whole group of people very effectively and very affordably, but it requires a different idea. And you know what? If you're in an urban centre, you can send your groceries to your mom on Uber. You can put trackers if dad wanders around. Like there's things that we can do that are not necessarily high level medical. And I mention that because we need to preserve those rare resources for when we really do need the specialist magicians like Samir.

MG: But also understand that not everybody has access to that. And in rural communities in particular, it's much more difficult.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Much more difficult.

MG: This is going to be a big conversation, I have a feeling. People want to have this conversation, I think. And if they don't, maybe this will prompt them to have it. Thank you both for being here. Samir, thank you.

SAMIR SINHA: Thanks for having us.

MG: And Laura, thank you very much.

LAURA TAMBLYN WATTS: Thank you.

MG: Doctor Samir Sinha is a geriatrician and Director of Health Policy Research with the National Institute on Ageing. Laura Tamblyn Watts is the author of “Let's Talk About Ageing Parents: A Real-Life Guide to Solving Problems with 27 Essential Conversations.” As I mentioned, this is a conversation that perhaps people are reluctant to have. They know that they need to have it, but they don't know how to get it going. We'd love to hear from you. Is your family dealing with some of these hard choices that come with ageing parents needing more support? If you are the senior, how do you feel about your children wanting to help more? How do you start that conversation? How have you started that conversation, and what has that conversation led to in terms of changes when it comes to health or finances or relationships? You can email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your CBC news is next, and then.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB EZRIN: I think we all have to do whatever it is that we can now to support each other, to work hard for the country, to be ready for sacrifice if sacrifice is necessary. Because in the end, it's worth it. This is the best country on earth.

MG: In a moment of Canadian pride and anger at the United States, Bob Ezrin, legendary music producer, has renounced his US citizenship. He’ll tell us about his decision to move back home to Canada. And we'll talk more about what people are doing in this moment to bring this country together. That's coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

CANADIANS

Guests: Bob Ezrin, Peter Wall

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. So it's been a week, eh? Tariffs came in, then yesterday, some tariffs went out until the 2nd of April at least when they might be back or not. Who knows. In the face of US President Donald Trump's tariff threats and calls to make Canada the 51st state, a lot of Canadians are just plain fed up. We have seen Canadians with their elbows up coming together this week, buying Canadian, protesting in front of the US embassy, making videos, we'll hear more about that in just a moment, from coast to coast to coast. I think it's fair to say we have seen unprecedented unity in this country. So this morning, we are talking to a few Canadians who are taking a stand and doing something to meet this moment. Bob Ezrin is a legendary Canadian music producer. He produced one of the greatest albums of all time, Pink Floyd's The Wall. He has worked with kiss, Lou Reed, U2, Taylor Swift, Johnny Reed, our friend Serena Ryder. He was also a dual citizen who has renounced his US citizenship and recently moved back to Canada. Bob Ezrin, good morning.

BOB EZRIN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: I want to get to your decision to move home in a moment, but how are you making sense of this moment and this week?

BOB EZRIN: It's pretty difficult, isn't it? I mean, I think Justin Trudeau's comment, make that make sense, should be a T-shirt. Yeah. I've never seen anything like it. And I've been an America file, I guess if there is such a word, and a student of American history and politics. And I've lived in America since 1985. I love that country. I love this country too. I never turned my back on Canada, but I always felt like I had a leg on each side of the border, and I always felt comfortable. You know, you cross the border and it's kind of like home, but without the U. And now, honestly, I don't recognize the place.

MG: Can I ask you about your relationship with the United States? I mean, as a music fan, when did you fall in love with the US and what the US created?

BOB EZRIN: Well, you know, as a kid growing up, you see the movies from the United States. You see television from the United States. Although we, you know, we had some pretty cool Mr. Dressup TV from Canada. But and there was always this sort of magical place across the border, and it wasn't that far away. We would drive into Buffalo as a family from time to time. And I thought the pizza was amazing and, you know, stuff like that. And but also, the most important thing for me was the music. My uncle was a collector, and I used to listen to, I would sit in his basement. He had a great stereo, which I think may be the reason that I ended up being a record producer in the first place. But I would listen, you know, downstairs to music from New Orleans and music from New York and from Chicago, and I would imagine these mythical places. The music was so magical that the places had to be as well, didn't they? So and then we started to travel, and I started working very early on. My first gig was Alice Cooper. And I got sent to Pontiac, Michigan, to do pre-production with the band and was hanging out in Detroit during the time of the Winter Revolution and, you know, free John Sinclair. And it was, you know, an electric time. And I really felt as though if there was going to be a revolution, and I'm making quotation marks in the air, that it would be in Detroit because that was the spirit. You know, that was the spirit of working class America and they were going to step up and they were going to speak out. It all just felt so Full of potential and so energetic and so on a fundamental level, so optimistic.

MG: When you became a US citizen, did you feel like an American?

BOB EZRIN: When I became a US citizen, I felt like a dual citizen.

MG: Yeah. Like somebody who had both, you know, blood, both kinds of blood running through your veins in some ways, and that you had a leg in both countries.

BOB EZRIN: Absolutely. And I used to get called out on my Canadianisms. You know, I would say being for b e e n instead of been. And, you know, I never said ou. I don't know why, but I never did. And I don't say, eh, but I do have certain pronunciations that are telltale.

MG: So why did you renounce it then? I mean, this is, as you said, this is a time, and you said you don't recognize the country in some ways. Why did you decide to take that step to renounce that citizenship?

BOB EZRIN: Because in a way, you know, silence or ineffective participation is complicity, right? And in my, in my heart, I couldn't be a part of what I see going on, even though I know that there are some amazing people. And I do. You know, I think in a general sense, Americans are really good-hearted people who have, you know, their families and their communities at heart. And but unfortunately, given the strength of media now and also the sort of, you know, the overload of information, it's too easy to stir people in the wrong direction. And many people have been fed a lot of lies, and they believe them. And all people know is that they're uncomfortable. And then somebody comes along and says, you're uncomfortable because of this, this, this and this. And if it hits any kind of note for you, then you start going, yeah, yeah, that's it.

MG: Is that what you don't recognize anymore, that sense of division that's in the country right now?

BOB EZRIN: Absolutely. I don't recognize the discomfort that has produced this kind of a result where Americans can literally say that they see Russia as less of a threat than liberals in their own country.

MG: You know that doing this is not going to, you know, change the actions of the Trump administration, but it does something. What do you think it accomplishes, even if it's, even if it's just symbolic in some ways?

BOB EZRIN: You mean my renunciation, what does it accomplish? Well, it just makes me feel honest, I'm sorry. I mean, you know, I don't think it matters to the American government in any way. I'm a flea in comparison to the things that they're dealing with and the people that they are going after. It matters to me and it matters to my family. I just don't want to be a part of it anymore. And it's not, you know, people say, well, it's only four years. You know, let's wait it out and it's all going to be great. I don't believe that. I think that this is a sea change for America. It's far too reminiscent of the 1930s in Europe. And I think that that place is going to be fundamentally different from the part, the place that attracted me when I was in my 20s. So anyway, I'm coming home. I am home. We have a beautiful home here. We love this place. I was born here. I understand Canada, you know? And every time I cross the border, by the way, even though I loved being in America, every time I crossed the border, there was kind of a [exhales] moment where you just sort of go, oh, I'm home. So that's how I feel here. And if I'm going to do that and going to be here and going to devote myself to this country and my life here, then what's the point of having a US citizenship, especially if a US citizenship is identified with what's going on now?

MG: What do you make of how we have responded to this? I mean, one of the things I was interested in in speaking with you this morning and others is that there are individual Canadians who are doing things. We saw this on Saturday, Mike Myers on Saturday Night Live. At the end of it, he pulls open his vest, and he's got this shirt that says Canada is not for sale, and is doing that, you know, elbows up, Gordie Howe in the corners. What did you make of that?

BOB EZRIN: No, I thought that was brilliant. I thought that was part of the resistance. And I actually, I sent him a note right afterwards that just said, this is amazing. And he said, he said, yeah, but we love Americans. And he's right. We do. But elbows up. So that's where we are. We love Americans, but we're being attacked not necessarily by the population at large, but certainly by the administration. They have their eyes on our resources. They have their eyes on our riches. And from Trump's point of view and from Project 2025’s point of view and Steve Bannon's point of view, the best thing that America can do right now is blow the world up and remake it in America's current image. And that's just not going to happen. We're not going to let that happen.

MG: You're somebody who, I mean, you could live anywhere and work anywhere, but you have always been a very proud Canadian through the work that you've done, through the philanthropy that you've been involved in. What do you hope comes out of this moment now, do you think?

BOB EZRIN: Well, you know, the best thing is already becoming evident, which is that we're pulling together as a country.

MG: Do you think that lasts? Do you think that that goes beyond what we’re seeing right now?

BOB EZRIN: Well, I don't know. And that's a really good question. And that's the reason I'm doing this, Matt. That's the reason why I'm talking to as many people as I can, because I think that this has to last. This is not a threat that's going to go away in a week. These people, they covet what we have. And they're not going to be satisfied until either they break us or they come to a point where they realize it's too costly to them to try. So. And costly, I don't mean necessarily in dollars and I don't mean necessarily in tariffs, but I do mean in terms of the level of resistance that will come from here to, you know, American, I hate to say that. Like I could never say this before, but American imperialism. So, you know, so we have to stick together. And we have to commit ourselves to this and say, look, this is a danger. It's not a danger that's going to disappear in a week. It's not a danger that's going to go away at the midterms. If we're all sitting here holding our breath for a year and a half, it's not going to happen. I mean, they may take the house, but it doesn't matter. He's basically created a kingship there. He's creating an autocracy and he's unpredictable. As my wife loves to say, you know, he thrives on chaos. So. And that chaos is aimed at us right now.

MG: So what would you, I'll let you go, but what would your message be to other Canadians in this mode? After this week, what would you say to them and us?

BOB EZRIN: Okay. Well, the first thing I would say is don't be overly reactive. I think that what we have to do is look inward right now. We have to look east and west and figure out ways that we can coexist together and help each other up, you know, like build each other up. So we have to be able to trade across the country without too many barriers. We have to normalize our economy as one country. And I think also, we have to be prepared for a little bit of sacrifice, and we have to drop our differences right now. Forget that you're a Liberal. Forget you're a Conservative. Forget you’re an NDP or anything else. You're a Canadian. And right now, all of us, you, me and everybody else, whatever party we belong to, we are at risk unless we stand up, we make the commitment and we continue to do the work for as long as it takes.

MG: Bob, it's great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

BOB EZRIN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Bob Ezrin, legendary Canadian music producer. He's worked with just about everybody from, as we said, Serena Ryder and Taylor Swift to Pink Floyd.

[Song: “Another Brick In the Wall” by Pink Floyd]

MG: Some of Bob Ezrin’s handiwork there. Pink Floyd's “The Wall.” My next guest is planning a rally for this Sunday in Ottawa. It's called Elbows Up, Canada. Peter Wall joins us now. Peter, good morning to you.

PETER WALL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How do you make sense of this moment and this week in this country?

PETER WALL: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, it's hard to make sense of, that's for sure. I think one way we can make sense of it is by talking about it and by coming together. And that's what we're aiming to do on Sunday here in Ottawa. We're gathering. We're having a peaceful non-partisan, family friendly, family friendly rally, a show of unity kind of in response to, you know, the rhetoric that's been coming in from our southern neighbours and from one person in particular.

MG: What does that phrase elbows up mean to you?

PETER WALL: Well, I think, you know, as you just said with Bob in your last conversation, it's, you know, coming out of the world of hockey. And I think Mike Myers did a great job on Saturday Night Live kind of, you know, putting his elbows up and saying Canada's not for sale. And so I think it shows that Canadians are polite, but we’re angry, we’re frustrated, and we want to stick up for ourselves.

MG: And so why did you want to do this? Why did you want to organize. We'll talk about what's going to happen. Why did you want to organize this rally on Sunday?

PETER WALL: Yeah. So my wife went to a rally earlier this week in Ottawa and it was great. It was kind of hastily thrown together. And, you know, there was people out, you know, sharing their views. And I went to sleep that night. I was out of town. I came home and I went to sleep that night and kind of woke up in the middle of the night. And I thought, we need to do something. We need to gather together in the way that people did for the 1995 referendum, in the way that we have in the past for other events and get out in the streets and channel our energy. Because I think a lot of us are feeling frustration and we want to do something. So this is an opportunity to come together in sort of a collective group hug slash, you know, flag waving opportunity and do something.

MG: And so you said that this would be family friendly, but also, you said it would be non-partisan. Tell me why that is important to you.

PETER WALL: Yeah. I think it's important that it's non-partisan. I think what we're all feeling is above party politics. It's about Canada. So everyone is welcome, you know, for the event on Sunday. The message is one of unity and sovereignty and positivity and optimism and togetherness. And ultimately, yeah, it's really not about party politics.

MG: Are you expecting politicians to show up?

PETER WALL: You know, I think we're, again, we're open for anyone. We're hearing informal support from political leaders, but this is not about politicians. This is a total grassroots movement for the people, by the people. You know, if leaders want to listen, great. But this isn't about them.

MG: Who's going to be speaking and what's going to be happening aside from people coming together?

PETER WALL: Yeah. So it's going to be a mix of speakers. We've announced our first speaker yesterday, Shaun Majumder, who's got a great story. Just moved back from Los Angeles to Canada. So he's going to be coming and he’s speaking. And Shaun is passionate and hilarious and will be great. And then we're going to be, you know, announcing other speakers throughout the next 48 hours. It'll be a mix of influential speakers, ordinary Canadians, grassroot voices. And we'll also have some music.

MG: The timing of this is interesting because, I mean, the news changes, it feels like minute by minute. Donald Trump announced yesterday sort of a back, you know, step towards maybe some sort of normalization, or at the very least, pulling back some of these tariffs for another 30 days. Does that change anything for you, what happened in the last 24 hours?

PETER WALL: I mean, honestly, Matt, I think this kind of chaos that we're feeling, it feels like it's going to last. You know, it's a roller coaster. And so I think as Canadians, we need to come together. And whatever is going on with the tariffs or without the tariffs, I think we are feeling like we need to gather and we need to, you know, to respond to what's going on. This is not an anti-Trump rally. It's not an anti America rally. You know, many of us have friends and family and business connections in the United States. So we love the United States, but what we're responding to is this idea that Canada is for sale or is up for negotiation or one, you know, is going to be the 51st state. None of us want that. Really, none of us want that. And so we need to get together and share that message.

MG: How do you think about the United States now? Because there are a lot of people who, to your point, may have ties, friends, family, what have you, but they also feel that it's not just the leadership, that a lot of people in the United States voted for Donald Trump. And they're cancelling trips. They are having hard conversations with, you know, folks on the other side of the border because it's bigger, they believe, than one man. How do you feel about the United States right now?

PETER WALL: I mean, I think what's really important is how I feel about Canada. And I think how I feel about Canada is we have something pretty unique and worth, you know, worth protecting here. And, you know, like I said, we love our American friends. You know, we love all of the things that we're able to experience in the United States. But ultimately, we are a different country. We're a different place. We have a different history. We're different people. We have multiple languages. We have a different approach to diversity. And so I think we need to get together and we need to celebrate that. We need to talk about it in a Canadian way, in a way that's polite but a little bit angry because we're all feeling angry and frustrated, in a way that's peaceful and in a way that really, you know, brings us together. Because it's possible, Matt, you know, that things are going to get tough in the coming weeks and months, and we need to be ready for that. We need to build resiliency as a group.

MG: What do you hope comes out of this moment? And it's not just the rally and what the rally inspires, but this feels like something. And it's the question that I asked Bob. What happens after this moment and what do you hope comes out of this moment?

PETER WALL: Yeah, it does feel like something. I think you're right. I mean, I think we all felt it during the hockey, during the Four Nations. You know, I certainly haven't felt that patriotic for a long time. So I think a renewed sense of Canadian uniqueness and how we need to protect and celebrate what we have here. I think that's what's coming out of this. I think an opportunity for Canadians to be more involved in the Canadian national project in whatever way that that represents itself, whether it's on a local level or beyond. You know, for me, I haven't ever been involved in something like this. I've never organized a rally. And a lot of the people who are on the organizing team are in the same boat. So I think it's a way for us to come together as a country and to build Canadian unity. And I think, I think that's a good thing.

MG: And you're seeing that from ordinary Canadians coast to coast to coast, people trying to figure out how they can be involved in this.

PETER WALL: Yeah. I mean, this is for us is really just the start. You know, we're having this event on Sunday. We're going to encourage other folks in the coming weeks to have events in their own communities and to grow this idea of us coming together.

MG: Peter, good to talk to you. Thank you.

PETER WALL: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Peter Wall is one of the organizers of the Elbow's Up, Canada rally. It's happening in Ottawa Sunday at 1 p.m. He mentioned that ordinary Canadians are kind of involved in this across the country. What are you doing? I mean, are there things that you are involved in in this moment for this country? Maybe it's in terms of we've been talking about purchasing power and what people have been buying, travel or what have you. But beyond that, you see a lot more maple leaf flags out in front of people's houses these days. What are you doing in this moment? You can email us and let us know. thecurrent@cbc.ca. Jeff Douglas has done a thing. Jeff is the host of CBC Radio's Main Street in Nova Scotia. He's in Halifax. He became a Canadian hero in 2000 as the flannel-wearing Joe Canada and the viral beer ad called the rant. His slogan, I am Canadian, became a national catchphrase. Well, now, Joe Canada, like all of us, is a little older, a little greyer, and he's back with a new version of the video. Here is our friend and colleague, Jeff Douglas, and “We Are Canadian.”

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF DOUGLAS: Hey, I know it's in our nature to cut a guy some slack, give him the benefit of the doubt. Like maybe he was confused or just joking or just maybe really needed a double double. But this isn't that guy. These aren't those people, and those are not the Rockies. They make a lot of mistakes. They mistake our modesty for meekness, our kindness for consent, our nation for another star on their flag, and our love of a hot, cheesy poutine with their love of a hot, cheesy Putin. They think they can bully us, threaten us and push us around, but they do not know us. That artificially drawn line they keep talking about, not artificial. And it's not on a map. It's right here. This is the land that Terry ran, the land that Gordon sang about. This is the birthplace of peanut butter and ketchup chips and yoga pants. It is the land of universal health care and the beach clarion call, of innovation and optimism and get that done. This is the land of the peacekeeper and the Shawinigan Handshake. Are we perfect? No, but we are not the 51st anything. We are the first to unite in a crisis, the first to build bridges, not walls, and the first to stand on guard for them. My name is Jeff, and we are Canadian. Thank you.

MG: Well done, buddy. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: There are so many nurses that have left emergency because of the working conditions. These are highly skilled professionals with additional credentials, and I meet more emergency room nurses working elsewhere than emerge.

MG: Hundreds of nurses rallied on the streets of downtown Vancouver last week, calling for safer working conditions and increased staffing. Since the pandemic, Canada's nursing shortage has only been getting worse. Coming up, we'll speak with two nurses about what they think needs to change and what's at stake if it doesn't. What is it like on the frontlines in 2025? We'll find out coming up in a minute and a half. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

NURSES

Guests: Peggy Holton, Kamika Sylvester, Leigh Chapman

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[clapping, drumming, cheering]

MG: Remember that noise? It goes back to 2020. Those are people banging pots and pans in Vancouver to honour health care workers during the pandemic. It's hard to believe, but next week is the fifth-year anniversary of the World Health Organization declaring COVID-19 a global pandemic. And those health care workers were treated as heroes back then. Now, many nurses say they are struggling in an overwhelmed system. Canada had a nursing shortage before 2020. The pandemic made it worse. It is estimated that Canada will be short some 117,600 nurses by 2030. Today, nurses say they are dealing with burnout, staffing shortages and high patient loads, and many of them are leaving the profession. Peggy Holton has been a nurse for over 40 years, currently working in the emergency department at Surrey Memorial Hospital near Vancouver. Also with me is Kamika Sylvester. She is a registered nurse based in Toronto, previously worked in emergency rooms as a travel nurse across Canada. They both join us now. Good morning to you both.

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Good morning.

PEGGY HOLTON: Good morning.

MG: Kamika, you started working as a nurse during the pandemic in 2021?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Yeah. I actually graduated from nursing school and did my education during the pandemic, which was extremely stressful, and started my career in the ER right at the peak of the pandemic.

MG: That was like right into the frying pan. What was it like?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Unimaginable for a lot of people. You are seeing this new disease ravage our population and trying to answer questions that you don't have the answer to, dealing with patients who have lost loved ones who've lost their livelihoods from businesses closing. And there's like a divide between, you know, controversial opinions about the vaccine. So on top of an already stressful job, so it was definitely challenging.

MG: Did you feel like you were prepared for that going into that situation? I don't think that any of us were prepared for what happened five years ago, but.

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: I don't think I was prepared. I don't think in nursing school, they really prepared us, but I don't think they could have prepared themselves either. It was something out of a movie.

MG: You were also, I just said in the introduction you were working as a travel nurse. Can you explain what that involves?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Yeah. So travel nursing or agency nursing essentially is when you either work for an agency or independently and you take contracts at hospitals outside of your home hospital that are experiencing critical staffing shortages that they're willing to have flying nurses from other places to provide the patient care that's necessary.

MG: Who are you working for?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Well, I am an independent contractor, so I do work with a few agencies that have connected me to different hospitals.

MG: You're working across the country?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Yeah. So I just came back from BC actually a few weeks ago. So definitely excited to chat with Peggy. And they have an amazing nursing union out there. I was in Nova Scotia and Alberta as well.

MG: And just the last point on this, you've worked in a few ERs. You're now in a surgical unit in Toronto.

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Yes.

MG: What is it like? We were talking about, you know, 2021. What is it like being a nurse today?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: It is still challenging. I feel like we're in a post-traumatic state. We have tried to acclimate or get used to the staffing shortages, but it still makes your job incredibly stressful. Mental health, morale, like all these things are at an all-time low. There's more patients than we have beds for. And even if we do have the beds, they can't be open because we don't have the staff to provide the care.

MG: I want to come back to that, that post-traumatic state. That's a really powerful way of describing it. Peggy, you've been listening in. You work, as I mentioned, in this busy emergency department in Surrey. Can you describe what an average day looks like for you?

PEGGY HOLTON: Well, in Surrey, we are one of the largest and busiest hospitals almost in North America I think we maybe have. We are now one of the busiest hospitals in North America. We see over 500 plus patients a day. And we often have over 100 to sometimes 130 admits in our emerge department at any given time. And so we do not have the capacity to manage this volume or the admissions that we have. So we have gone to like what they call boarding or overcapacity beds, which is putting patients in hallways. Every nook and cranny is filled with someone so that we can provide them a bed space versus sitting in a chair. So it can be very daunting. You come on, you know your waiting room is full. You know a lot of people there want care. You see the looks in their eyes. You try not to make eye contact because inadvertently, somebody is going to want you to do something, you know, take care of their pain crisis, get their loved one seen, and or just out of sheer frustration want to vent with you.

MG: So just to be clear, I mean…

PEGGY HOLTON: And so it can be really daunting.

MG: You try not to make eye contact with the people who are there being treated in the hallways, in the emergency departments, wherever, because you're worried that if you do, they will ask something of you in a situation where you're already being pulled in all these different directions.

PEGGY HOLTON: Right. And if you already have like, you know, maybe, you know, anywhere from eight to 12 patients under your care, you're already maxed out as to how much you can provide and how fast you can provide that. So we do try to provide our, like when we do assessments at triage, we do try to provide pain control at that point in time. But there is a limit, and it often isn't enough to manage the pain crisis that some patients may be in. So for nurses, it's often quite daunting. And then when you do start work, it's the fact that you're working short. You don't have enough of the skilled ER nurses that you need. We're supplementing with med surg nurses, with LPNs to try and at least get some of the patient care done and meet some of the patient's needs. And so it is daunting and it's almost like a bit demoralizing. You feel that, you have a feeling of you don't have any personal accomplishment, like you're not meeting patients’ needs. And then we're also seeing high levels of like emotional exhaustion. So it is a real challenging time right now.

MG: And also dangerous, right? Your union has said that something like 26 nurses a month in BC suffer a violent injury at work. What's happening there?

PEGGY HOLTON: Yeah. So violence is sort of on the uprise, and we're seeing it increase, not decrease. And it's again, a lot of things are due to their economic status. People are struggling in their own personal lives. And then to have an illness put on top of that just further, you know, exhaust and exaggerates their behaviours. And a lot of times, people are really just trying to advocate for their family members and then frustrated when we can't provide the care that they feel that their family member needs.

MG: The BC government says that they provided something like 750 security staff working in health care settings. Does that help?

PEGGY HOLTON: Well, it does help, but there isn't enough security staff. At Surrey, we have like a huge amount of, we have the security staff, but certainly not enough. And we do have a lot of violence that happens. Like it can be in the form of verbal aggression, like sort of the yelling, the emotional abuse that comes with that. But it can also be the physical as well. And we have people that like because of their anger, they then lash out. But we also have a lot of, we have about like over 61%, I guess, they say, of our nurses are facing like, you know, contact with innocent substances as well. And we get a lot of people coming in with psychosis. And inherent in that is often a lot of violent behaviour that comes with that psychosis. And so that also if you don't have enough security staff, nurses then get involved and do hands on. And then that creates injuries for our nurses and further exhausts our and depletes our nursing complement for the day.

MG: Kamika, let me pick up on something that Peggy mentioned, and that’s just in terms of the number of patients that you're handling. She said eight to 12 patients can be under your care. There was an investigation from the Toronto Star that found that some nurses in the province of Ontario last summer had to look after as many as nine patients at the same time. Does that sound familiar?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Well, I can't specifically speak to that because last summer, I wasn't nursing in Ontario. But I do know before I left, our ER had a zone that I was working in where if your partner goes on break, you have sometimes up to 12, 13 patients by yourself.

MG: What does that mean for patient care if I'm one of those 12 or 13 patients and there's you?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: It means that you could potentially get added to my caseload and be waiting, seen by a doctor and discharged if there didn't require any medical, any nursing interventions, and I would have never seen you.

MG: Are you trying to avoid my line of sight when I'm looking at you? If I'm lying on the gurney and I'm trying to catch your eye, are you kind of, you know, looking somewhere else so that you don't…

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: No. I've been a patient in this system before. I've had family members and treated family members over COVID. So I do try to make eye contact because sometimes, it's they just need to feel validated. They need to feel seen. When they're in a hallway, they don't have like a call bell to actually call a nurse.

MG: But you understand why somebody would do that though, too, right? Peggy was talking about that that could just suddenly, you feel like you can't help everybody else. So it's easier just to kind of have that gaze go straight through.

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: And sometimes, you do have to walk with your blinders on, especially if you're trying to respond to a critical event. But I try. It's a balancing act. And I think Peggy is speaking to like really like how daunting it is because you're making snap decisions, especially in the ER, that is impacting patients’ lives. And sometimes, stopping if you're on your way to a code or something and you have to stop and get somebody water in the hallway, like time, like we don't have the time sometimes.

MG: Peggy, just briefly, there was legislation that was passed in BC to standardize the nurse to patient ratios. In pediatric and surgical departments, you have one nurse for every four patients. Have you seen any changes since that law was passed?

PEGGY HOLTON: Well, we've just started now to implement our nurse patient ratios throughout BC. And so in our region, we've implemented in five areas at this current time. We're starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel, but it's just a glimpse at this point in time. But I am seeing maybe a bit more hope in our staff in the fact that there might be some changes on the horizon. Our first sight that we did implement, I think now they have basically filled all their vacancies, which is a huge success. It was a smaller site, but it shows that it can be done. And if we look at what's happened in California and Australia, they saw like a lot of, what, 7000 of their nurses that, you know, that were inactive, that left during the, you know, pandemic and stuff like that come back. And so we're hopeful that this will give some hope and some willingness for some of our nurses to come back and work in the system and that we’ll be able to provide the nursing care that we want to provide, provide, you know, keep up with our standards.

MG: We're almost out of time. Let me ask you both just briefly. And I'll start with you, Peggy. You've been a nurse for over 40 years. Given what you've described, there are people, you could be one of those people, who leave the profession. Why do I have to put up with this? Why do I? This is exhausting, the violence that I face. What keeps you going? What do you love about it and what keeps you there?

PEGGY HOLTON: It is I want to make a difference. I want to be able to provide the care that my mother, my father, my family member would benefit from. I want to have care there when I get old and when I need it as well. And I think that I have learned through the years, the 40 years of nursing, I've learned more from my patients and my families than I've probably, you know, than I've probably taught them. It is such a rewarding profession. I've been able to, I'm finally birthing trained. Like I'm able to see the birth of a child, but I'm also able to hold the hand of someone and provide support for family members as people take their last breaths. It's an incredible journey and it's such a great profession. We just need to be able to sort of deal with the shortages, deal with the violence and provide some safer workplace conditions, and it'll go back to being as great as it was before.

MG: Kamika, you’re relatively new to this.

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Yes.

MG: Given everything that you have described, would you consider leaving nursing? Do you regret being in this profession?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: I don't regret being in this profession.

MG: Do you ever think about leaving?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: I have thought about leaving, but not necessarily leaving health care, but leaving bedside to pursue impacting the system, because I've seen that I can make an impact with my patients immediately, but I want to make an impact for generations to come. So like what BC is doing is moving in the right direction, but there's still so much left to do. Like even if we have patient ratios, that doesn't fix the fact that the ER has patients that are there because they have nowhere to live or they don't have a livable wage or they can't access prescriptions that we're prescribing for infection, so they're coming back frequently. So I really want to make a difference. And so I have pondered leaving to pursue full-time like, you know, my non-profit that I founded in the healthcare space and another venture that's looking at mental health support for black health care providers.

MG: But you haven't left yet.

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: But I haven’t left yet.

MG: So just finally, what is keeping you at the bedside?

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: It's I think, like Peggy said, those moments where you get to hold someone's hand through like a really tough time, where you get to see the look in their eyes when, you know, you provided care to them and they feel the compassion. It's those moments that I feel like that's why God put me here to like actually make a difference in someone's worst moment, especially in the ER. So I wouldn't, it's hard because I wouldn't trade that for the world. I just wish the system would give us all the tools that we need to do our job and actually, you know, support a healthier population so that it's not as stressful.

MG: Your patients are lucky to have you both. Thank you both for being here and being honest in talking about what you're up against, but also what you love about the job. Peggy, thank you.

PEGGY HOLTON: You're welcome.

MG: And Kamika, thank you very much.

KAMIKA SYLVESTER: Thank you for having us.

MG: Peggy Holton has been a nurse, as you heard, for over 40 years, currently working in the emergency department at Surrey Memorial Hospital near Vancouver. Kamika Sylvester is a registered nurse working in Toronto. Leigh Chapman is Canada's Chief Nursing Officer. She advises the federal government on nursing issues. Leigh, good morning to you.

LEIGH CHAPMAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: That portrait of nursing from these two nurses is pretty bleak, I think it's fair to say. When you hear that, what goes through your mind?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: Well, I would agree it's bleak. It's certainly not surprising. I've met with nurses in every province and territory across the country, and I've heard very, very similar stories. I think the 130 no bed admits in an emergency department is a record. The most I'd ever heard was 100. So that's a bit shocking because we don't have the capacity. We don't have the infrastructure to look after admitted patients typically in an emergency department. And you can just hear how Peggy describes, you know, folks are in the hall, they don't have access to a call bell. It's very difficult for nurses to actually meet the standards of practice under those conditions.

MG: Why are we in this position where, Kamika describes it as a post traumatic state, where you have nurses who are afraid to make eye contact with their patients because they're worried about what they'll be asked to do that they can't do?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: Yeah, I think we've just had this, you know, massive erosion, you know, of the working conditions in health care in general. We've had the rest of the pandemic. We've had massive workforce challenges. And I think we're just climbing our way out of that. I think Peggy's words were telling that there is some hope and inspiration that change is coming. The change takes time. These are structural changes that are needed in terms of how we're valuing nursing work and how we're actually changing the work environment. But it does take time, and patients keep coming in. And so it's very difficult to change as you're still providing care.

MG: But you said when you took on this role, you said that you wanted to make nursing a profession of choice in Canada. Given what we've heard, why would anybody want to be a nurse?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: I mean, the making a difference part, the ability to reach people at the best days of their life and the worst days of their life and everything in between. There's no profession like this where we get to actually be so involved in learning from patients, learning about their lives, developing a relationship with them as we're providing care.

MG: But the system, the system is such that, I mean, again, that phrase of being in a post traumatic state suggests that the benefits, it's hard to see those benefits for some people given, I mean, even Kamika who's been in the job for four or five years was thinking, is thinking of leaving.

LEIGH CHAPMAN: It is. And sometimes, we derive the benefits from our colleagues, you know, from the staff that we're working with. It's very difficult. The working conditions are very difficult right now, there's no question.

MG: I mentioned earlier that Canada is expected to face a shortage of 117,000 nurses by 2030. That's in five years’ time. What would that mean for the health care system, do you think?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: I mean, it's unfathomable. We still have massive shortages and vacancies. And I think, you know, we have a global nursing shortage. So we really need to rethink the way in which we're optimizing nursing work. And I've been really focusing on retaining nurses and encouraging the return of nurses who may have left because I think that's exactly where the strategic focus needs to be.

MG: Do you understand why some nurses would leave government jobs, if I can put it that way, for private agencies that would offer perhaps better conditions, more choice, better pay? Do you understand why people would do that?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: Oh, absolutely. There are structural changes that are needed. And I think they can find flexibility and balance their life in different ways when they're working for private staffing agencies, but there's also things that the public system can do to entice them to come back.

MG: The province of Ontario has the largest number of nurses in the country, and we contacted the Ontario government. It sent us a statement that says in part, for the third year in a row, we have registered a record number of nurses, adding a total of 50,000 new nurses. Another 30,000 are studying nursing at one of Ontario's colleges or universities. It says it's trying to make it easier as well for international nurses to get certified. Is that enough, do you think? When you hear those numbers in light of the need, but also the conditions that nurses are working in, what does all of that mean? Is the government doing enough to address the crisis?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: I mean, every single jurisdiction is working on recruitment efforts, whether it's increasing seats in nursing education programs or, you know, enticing internationally educated nurses or accelerating their integration into the system. And that's all around recruitment. We still have more nursing students apply to nursing education programs than we have seats across the country. There's still high, high demand for nursing education programs, but we also need an investment in retention.

MG: And so what do you do about that? You've hinted this a couple of times. What can bring those nurses back from private agencies, but also keep nurses in the system so that they don't leave for other jobs?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: I mean, we heard in BC the implementation of safe staffing ratios. That's one of the recommendations in the toolkit that we released on nursing retention around safe staffing. Other jurisdictions are following suit and very interested in evidence-based staffing and ratios. It's really about engaging nurses. Nurses have the solutions. They have the innovation if we just provide the platform for them to actually share their ideas about what would make a difference, whether it's, you know, mental health and wellness supports or increased flexibility or reducing the administrative burden of nurses so that they're not tied up doing non nursing tasks, which occupies a lot of nursing time. And I think that is, that results in the, you know, lack of eye contact.

MG: They can feel when you hear that, that lack of eye, I mean, that's the horror story that I think people are afraid to see, right, that they need care. They end up in the hallway of an emergency department. They're in pain. They're trying to catch somebody’s eye. And people won't look at them because they're already overburdened. That can lead to people thinking that the health care system is breaking, that they might lose faith in that system. If this is a problem that is not fixed, what worries you most about how patients, those people on those gurneys will feel the impact?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: I think my worry is that people won't engage in care, that people won't actually access health care. I mean, we certainly have very big challenges in the health care system, in the systems across the country. My worry is that people, you know, will be reluctant to actually seek care when they need care because they're not, you know, they're not getting the care that they need, or they feel that they won't be treated in a humane and decent way. And that I think should be a worry for everyone in Canada.

MG: Peggy talked just finally about that, you know, seeing some hint of light at the end of the tunnel. Do you see that as well?

LEIGH CHAPMAN: I do. I do. Yeah. In two and a half years in this role and in talking to nurses, nurses are very engaged. They have the solutions. We just need to listen to them.

MG: We'll talk again. I'm glad to have you here back on the program. Leigh, thank you so much.

LEIGH CHAPMAN: Thank you for having me.

MG: Leigh Chapman is Canada's Chief Nursing Officer. If you are a nurse or you have been receiving care like so many of us have in hospitals, we would love to hear from you and your experiences in and around that system that, as we've heard, is in some distress, can we put it that way? You can email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. That's The Current for this Friday, the 7th of March. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. It's been a week. We want to leave you with some music. And because of this moment that we're in, we're choosing to celebrate Canadian music today and beyond. If you have a favourite Canadian song, let us know what you want to hear and what it means to you. Email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. We talked about some music produced by the legendary Bob Ezrin. I spoke with him earlier about his decision to renounce his US citizenship, move back home to Canada. He's worked all around the world. In 2010, he produced a remake of K’Naan’s Juno Award winning single “Wavin’ Flag”, featured 57 Canadian artists dubbed Young Artists for Haiti, raised $2 million to help those affected by the Haitian earthquake. Here is that tune. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend, and we'll see you on Monday.

[Song: “Wavin’ Flag” by Young Artists for Haiti]

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Friday, March 7, 2025 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This