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The AIH transcript for March 05, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Exceptions to the rules. The auto sector gets a temporary reprieve from tariffs, Trudeau and Trump have a conversation. And the U.S. president says it ended in a somewhat friendly manner: the latest on the ever-moving targets in the trade war.

CH: Reaping what the president sows. The head of Minnesota's farmers' union has a message for President Trump: tariffs are going to be devastating for American farmers like him.

NK: Short-sighted. Alberta's government wants to change the way deaths of young adults who were formerly in provincial care are investigated. The province's child and youth advocate says that would mean losing sight of long-term outcomes.

CH: In his mind's A.I. An Alberta researcher wins the Turing Award -- known as the Nobel of computer science. And he tells us why -- unlike some of his fellow pioneers in artificial intelligence, he's so positive it's a positive force.

NK: Some are shaking their tailfeathers -- and some are shaken by the tailfeathers. The people of a B.C. town were divided about the peafowl that strutted around their community for years. Then they disappeared. Now...it appears that they’re back.

CH: And...secondhand information. Get ready to stand and applaud [NK chuckles] for the researchers who've determined why, exactly, clapping sounds like...clapping.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that always appreciates innovations in ovations.

Part 1: Tariffs: Latest, Turing AI Pioneer, Naramata Peacocks

Tariffs: Latest

Guest: Catherine Cullen

CH: The two sides in the Canada-U.S. trade war are talking today. That much we know. But what a peace agreement might look like is less clear. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke by phone with U.S. President Donald Trump today. In public statements afterward, they agreed that they'd talked about trade and fentanyl -- but not much else. The White House then announced a month-long tariff exemption for the automotive industry -- and said the president was open to other exemptions. Canada's foreign minister, Melanie Joly, described the negotiations as, quote, "very, very fluid." Catherine Cullen is the host of CBC Radio's The House. And we reached her in Ottawa.

NK: Catherine, the fact that Trudeau and Trump had a conversation at all directly on this issue is significant in and of itself. What do you know about what got done in that 50- minute call?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Well, I mean, listen, we're nowhere near out of the woods yet. I think it's probably a good sign that the two leaders have spoken. We know that the prime minister was trying to get on the phone with Donald Trump for quite some time, and he wasn't able to, to make that happen. But it, was this fundamentally a good news call from Canada? Is there any evidence that it changed things? No. What we are hearing from our sources is that conversations are continuing at a lower level. So, Dominic LeBlanc, Canada's finance Minister, Howard Lutnick, the commerce secretary in the U.S., the two have developed a bit of a rapport. They are continuing to negotiate at this hour. They're having conversations. They've been going back and forth, but the conversation is at the level of possibly having further industry-specific carve outs to the tariffs. It's not about wiping the slate clean. Now, yes, that would be good news for Canada. I mean, the more pressure we can take off vis-a-vis tariffs, certainly that's a good sign. But it does indicate that the path out of this is going to be difficult. Add on top of that some should we call them spicy comments, Nil? {NK chuckles] From Donald Trump on social media about Justin Trudeau immediately after speaking. You have to wonder, too, about the mood.

NK: Yeah, there are many words that can be used to describe it, but I will leave it at what you said. We know that Prime Minister Trudeau yesterday, you know, essentially said these are unjustified, unnecessary, and even potentially illegal tariffs that we're seeing from the United States. You and I spoke about how, you know, last time we were talking about what might the, the story be, the narrative be from the U.S. administration if they started to bring in some sort of reprieve? And we're seeing that in terms of the auto industry, that month-long reprieve for that industry. What did that signal to you?

CC: It signals, I think, one thing that Canada can perhaps take heart or Canadians can perhaps take some heart in, is that Donald Trump can be moved by economic pressure. Now, that's not economic pressure coming from Canada by the sounds of it. According to the white House spokesperson, it was, in fact, the big three automakers in the United States saying, could you give us a little bit more time here? And the thing that makes it even more of a sort of perhaps rotten surprise for Canadians is that their argument is that the automakers should use that month to start moving down to the United States. Now, as we have heard from all sorts of folks involved in this industry, it is nowhere near that simple. The industry is so integrated. You can't just flip a switch and in 30 days, have all these carmakers moved down to the United States. It doesn't work that way. Again, if there is good news, it is that Donald Trump can be swayed on some of these issues. Although to your previous point, Nil, he keeps saying that this is about fentanyl and the border. And yet, he's dropping part of the tariffs due to economic pressure. So, that, that further muddies what was already a very muddy message. And Ontario Premier Doug Ford was speaking today, and telling reporters that he agrees with Prime Minister Trudeau in the sense that all U.S. tariffs have to be lifted before Canada lifts its counter tariffs. We'll play our listeners a bit of what Ontario's premier said.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: We're on the same page, zero tariffs. And we are not going to budge. We aren't going to buckle down. Let's move forward to the USMCA deal, or the CUSMA deal, NAFTA, whatever you want to call it. And let's start moving forward. But we will not budge. Zero tariffs, and that's it.

NK: We're really getting the sense that they've all agreed this is going to be an all-or-nothing approach there in this trade war, or early stages of it, and they're not going to back down. But what's your sense at this stage of the power, but also the potential pitfalls of that kind of a tactic?

CC: I think one of the big dangers for Canada throughout this, for the federation has been the possibility of further friction, further pulling apart amongst the provinces. We saw early on in some of this discussion when Alberta Premier Danielle Smith was saying, listen, we will not accept, it will be a question of national unity if the rest of the country wants to use Alberta oil and gas as a bargaining chip in all of this. And you had other provinces, I think of Newfoundland and Labrador's Premier Andrew Furey saying, listen, when you're, when you're playing chess, you don't tell people where you're going to move your queen, right? Like, the card metaphor has been used, too. That you don't take away important bargaining chips. Now, you can see where each side is coming from here. You know, Ontario, yes, is saying will shut off energy, but that has been it's understood to protect their auto sector. Whereas for Alberta, the big sector, I mean the biggest chunk of what Canada sells to the United States is energy. It's, a lot of it is Alberta's oil and gas. And so, you can understand why this is an existential issue for, for them as well, and why this tension has formed. So, you know, I think it was one question that arose in a lot of people's minds when it was announced there was this 30-day reprieve. Oh, is this going to be the beginning of picking Canada apart, sector-by-sector, playing parts of the country off of one another? Doug Ford saying, you know, it's an all-or-nothing situation. I think that should be viewed as, as, as good news for, for, the federation.

NK: And let's play a little bit for our listeners of what Alberta Premier Danielle Smith did say today. Let's take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE SMITH: This economic attack on our country, combined with Mr. Trump's continued talk of using economic force to facilitate the annexation of our country, has broken trust between our two nations in a profound way. It is a betrayal of a deep and abiding friendship.

NK: That's, that's a big shift from the tone that we heard from Alberta's premier earlier on in this. As you well know, she visited Mar-A-Lago as we know as well. What did you hear in what she said today?

CC: Again, I think it's an encouraging sign, but we have to be realistic, Nil, in the midst of difficult times, right? This is not a good moment for Canada. We cannot sugarcoat it. This is really going to hurt Canada's economy. So, to hear the premiers coming together, speaking in at least similar voices, I think Canadians should be encouraged by that. But they are perhaps pushed to do that because the rubber is really hitting the road. This is real now. I mean, you talk about the auto sector in particular, and we hear from people involved in the industry. It's a matter of days until people start being at least temporarily laid off. We're going to have to watch these ongoing conversations between Parliament Hill and the White House and see where they lead us.

NK: Catherine Cullen in Ottawa. Thank you as always, Catherine.

CC: Thank you.

CH: Catherine Cullen is the host of CBC Radio's The House. And she is in Ottawa.

[indie rock]

Turing AI Pioneer

Guest: Richard Sutton

CH: It's been a rough week so far. But today, Canada has something to cheer about: one of the country's top AI researchers has won this year's Turing Award -- which is often called the Nobel Prize of computer science. Alberta researcher Richard Sutton shares the honour with his longtime American collaborator Andrew Barto. The two men are groundbreakers in reinforcement learning -- where artificial intelligence learns from its own mistakes without help from humans. Instead, like humans, the machines respond to wins and failures. Professor Sutton started his career in the United States, but decided to move to Canada more than two decades ago, boosting AI research here -- much like 2018 winner Geoffrey Hinton. We reached Richard Sutton in Edmonton.

NK: Richard Sutton, first of all, congratulations.

RICHARD SUTTON: Thanks a lot.

NK: What does it mean, I wonder, not just to win this prize, but, but to win it as as a researcher in Canada?

RS: Well, it's a great honour. It's gratifying to both Andy Barto and myself for winning the Turing Award. Canada is a great place to do, do research in science, and I like to think we can compete with anybody in the world.

NK: Your field is reinforcement learning. You mentioned Andrew Barto. You work together. You base this pioneering work on the idea that artificial intelligence could learn in a way that is similar to humans. For our listeners, what's the basic idea you're working with there behind that?

RS: The basic idea is, well, learning from experience, learning by trying things, doing things, seeing what happens, seeing if there's a reward or a penalty. You know, basically something good or bad happens to you, you remember what you did and you do it again in the future.

NK: You know, as as our producer Kate and I were chatting before I came in to speak with you with, we thought, well, a lot of people, a lot of human beings aren't so good at that, [both chuckle] and Make the same mistakes over and over again.

RS: Well, we do. We do. Human beings make mistakes, but we're also brilliant. You know, we're brilliant at figuring out what to do. Human beings and animals in nature, we are, we are the ideal. So, we can't, we can't berate ourselves too much. [chuckling]

NK: How does this work for a machine?

RS: Well, you, first you identify something that you want that's the goal. Something to deliver a reward to the, to the machine, or to indicate to the machine that it's done something well. Then, you have the machine try different things, both, you know, in reality and in its imagination, and, and correlate what it does with, with the eventual reward.

NK: And you, you and Andrew Barto wrote the book on this, quite literally, a textbook in 1998. And, you know, in the coverage of, of your win, it talks about how, really, every researcher in this field reads your book and then builds their work on top of that. It Includes one of your former doctoral students, David Silver, who developed AlphaGo, the AI system that people may remember beat the world's best players at the game of go. How did that illustrate, that example, illustrate and demonstrate to people what this kind of learning, reinforcement learning, is truly capable of?

RS: That was a very big deal. Because the game of go is so important to so many people. And they were able to beat the world's best players in the world, world champion, and really become the best player in the world. And they did it in such a way that it wasn't a bad outcome. And really, like, as I say, more go boards were sold after that because of the increased interest and excitement about the game of go. Because we had a new player who was playing it to a high level, and that was AlphaGo. And it illustrated the basic idea of reinforcement learning, which is that you can learn from rewards. Because rewards don't tell you what you should have done. You know, you win the game or you lose the game. Still, you don't know which move was responsible for the win, or which moves, maybe some of your moves were actually bad. And that is the power of learning from experience, is that you can figure out what you should have done, and you don't have to be told what to do.

NK: What's your dream for this technology ultimately in the future?

RS: Well, the dream ultimately is to understand our minds, and to be able to recreate them to augment or amplify our own intelligence. And, you know, it's just a continuation of what we've always done. Right now, we have, you know, we have calculators and computers to make us think better. And we have phones that let us communicate better. And we have, you know, eyeglasses and pencils to help us think better and see better. And so, this amplification of our abilities is what the ultimate use of AI technology will be for, I think.

NK: It's interesting to hear you say that because as you, as you well know, there there are fellow winners or others in this field who are really concerned about where this field is going, and have spoken out about it, including on this program. And I've read that, that you don't necessarily agree with that picture of, of concern.

RS: Well, I don't agree. I think, you know, there are lots of things that are difficult in our society. But I don't think it's due to intelligence. You know, well, I guess my phrase is something like, there's a lot of things wrong with this world, but too much intelligence isn't one of them.

NK: But are you worried that if there aren't proper regulations, or people aren't all approaching it in the way that you and your colleague have, that it could be problematic in the future?

RS: Well, unfortunately, I still think almost the opposite of that. I think the desire to put rules and regulations and controls on what's done in AI is more likely to make things worse. I think the world is full, too full of people trying to control each other and what we do. So, for example, today, you know, many people are worried that, oh, they've let the chat agents, the AI chat agents out as a product. Well, I really don't see how talking to a machine is going to cause any massive harms.

NK: But, I mean, we see people's work being appropriated and used, and without, without their permission or payment, those kinds of, or those are just early concerns.

RS: Well, that has to be managed a little bit. But there's copyright and, but there's also fair use. And the, the AI agents are absolutely mixing up, you know, various bits of, of existing material into new ways. So, I'm pretty sanguine about all that.

NK: I can hear that in your voice. As reinforcement goes, a win like this I would say is, or as scores go, is, is a pretty good score for you. How, how will you celebrate?

RS: Well, probably have a good meal, probably see some friends, and we'll be celebrating at the Alberta Machine Intelligence Institute tomorrow, and just celebrating what it means for Edmonton, and Alberta, and Canada.

NK: Richard Sutton, congratulations again. I'm glad we could speak.

RS: Thank you. Have a good day.

NK: You too.

CH: Richard Sutton is the co-winner of this year's Turing Award. He's a computer science professor at the University of Alberta and a fellow at the Alberta Machine Intelligence Institute. He's in Edmonton.

[ambient]

Naramata Peacocks

Guest: Craig Henderson

CH: The community of Naramata, B.C. thought it had seen the last of the peafowl. But a new photo is spreading excitement and concern, much like a peacock spreading its decorative tailfeathers. This photo -- posted by a resident on the community Facebook page -- depicts what appears to be a peacock, perched on a telephone line. Which raises a lot of important questions -- because it's been three years since peafowl disappeared entirely from Naramata. Craig Henderson is the host of The Naramata Roadshow.

NK: Craig, what did you think when you saw these pictures and heard these reports that, that the peacocks are back?

CRAIG HENDERSON: I couldn't believe it. You know, it's been three years since we lost our peacocks, our unofficial mascot of our community. And, you know, everybody wants to have a look. So, it's a couple of doors down from my, my home where these pictures were taken of the peacock or peafowl. And I, I've only known three people, I just haven't seen them myself. I've seen the pictures. I've talked to the people that took the photos. They are credible. [both chuckle] But we haven't ascertained yet whether these young birds are male or female. And that's sort of the big question of the day. Second to who delivered them?

NK: Yes, who delivered them? But even if we go back years, when this relationship first began, I mean, what were they doing there in the first place?

CRAIG HENDERSON: From what I could understand, back in my research in the community, in 2007, a peahen and two small male chicks, probably her chicks, arrived here in the community, were found in a park, and then one of the chicks disappeared. Maybe got predators or something. And so, the two were left. And then, mother and presumably son mated, and some more chicks were born -- mostly male. And then, fast forward to 2010, and three chicks were born. We had three or four males, adults now, and a peacock, the male variety, and one peahen, and three new chicks. And it was becoming a divisive time in the community on the peacock question because visitors love them. It's, you know --

NK: They're beautiful.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Photo opportunities with them in full plumage of the peacock. But, you know, they'd wake people up at 5 a.m. in the summertime. And they'd get on the cars and roost on cars and scratch the vehicles. And then, there were other people who just adored them, too. So, because they were, you know, a tranquil and quirky kind of thing for our small village. And so, so, the controversy in September and the summer of 2010 was a trapper, a professional trapper, was paid to come onto private property and scoop up the female and her three chicks and wisk them away to a petting zoo an hour away. They weren't anyone's property, so he was within his rights to do so. And, and that was leaving us with only some male peacocks here in the community.

NK: So, that was, that was just phase one. And as we know, they're not indigenous to, to Naramata, or B.C. So, someone brought them 20 years ago.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Yeah, that's correct. And then three years ago, the last of the peacocks, or two of them, were taken out by what we presume was a bobcat kill in the wintertime. And so, it was a sad time after that because people had, this had become an unofficial mascot of the community. Kids in our local elementary school had grown up knowing the peacock and the symbolism of it in our community. And so, now here we are, three years that we, you know, we still want to know what's going on. [NK laughs] We haven't --

NK: The mystery is the best part of the allure, though, I guess.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Especially the gender issue.

NK: Well, yes, that will be need, that will need to be sorted out.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Yeah. And I think we've missed them over those three years. And, oh yes, there will be detractors. But for the most part, they, you know, they were beloved.

NK: Where do you land in the debate, if you can reveal?

CRAIG HENDERSON: Well, they don't bother me. I'm a morning person, so I can put up with the 5 a.m. rackets. [both chuckle] And so, I guess I have to say I'm a fan. But yeah, and you know, and with this sighting, it can go three different ways, I suppose. It could be a male and a female, which would be bad news because that would start the whole multiplication drama we had a few years back.

NK: Yeah.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Or I think I'd prefer two males. Just to the loveliness of, of the, the tail feathers and the plumage. And, and yes, they squawk a lot as they're looking for a mate. But that's just part of, part of the --

NK: It's a trade. It's a worthwhile trade-off, it sounds like, to see them?

[chuckling] sure it is, yes.

NK: In all their glory. You know what? I've seen peacocks, but never with the plumage, you know, in full view. It must be, it must be a lovely thing.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Yes, it must be. And so, but it begs the question who dropped them off? Well, we don't know. It's very difficult to trace unless you check your backyard porch cameras or something. I've no idea because we're quite far. You know, it's an isolated valley, and we have mountains on one side, Okanagan Lake on the other. We have vineyards and orchards and forests on the other two sides. So, somebody would have had to put them in their minivan or SUV [NK chuckles] and dropped them here in our, in our village.

NK: Well, how would they manage, you know, in that, in that initial time period, how did they manage to survive there so long?

CRAIG HENDERSON: Well, they get by pretty well during, you know, the spring, summer, and fall. But in the winter, people would feed them birdseed, and, and they'd be infamous for raiding gardens in the summer time, too. Sometimes, they were invited into the gardens, but other times they had to be chased away. And one of the quirkiest things about the, the peacocks in the later years of them being here was Thursday, you could reliably find them. At least one of them would be chasing after the garbage truck going down the road [NK chuckles] like the Road Runner on the on TV, you know, the old cartoon, squawking away, chasing, [chuckling] and we don't know why.

NK: I mean, if, if, if I had to choose between raccoons or peacocks and listeners, unfortunately, know my relationship with raccoons, it's not a good one. [chuckling] I think I would take peacocks, but, but maybe those who dislike the peacocks would disagree with me.

CRAIG HENDERSON: I'm with you there, though. Yeah.

NK: Thank you. Thank you for your support. Have you been getting lots of calls into your, into your radio show about this?

CRAIG HENDERSON: Well, it's community radio, so it's only once a week, so it's, but Facebook is lighting up in our community, that's for sure.

NK: Yeah.

CRAIG HENDERSON: And people are on the hunt on a particular one or two-block section of a road along the lake to, to see if they can spot these two birds and we can get better identification on them.

NK: Yeah. And you're, you're, you're part of the investigation. You're digging into things.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Well, nothing's organized, but just people on their own. So, yeah, people watching and talking and the local coffee shop is, you know, [laughing] that's the talk of the town right now, these last few days.

NK: Well, you'll keep us posted.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Something will break. Yeah, something will break soon, and we'll let you know.

NK: Thanks, Craig. Great to speak.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Well, have to have a gender release party or something like that. [both chuckle]

NK: Thanks for this, Craig. Take care.

CRAIG HENDERSON: Thank you.

CH: Craig Henderson is a resident of Naramata, B.C. who's looking into the potential return of the peafowl. We reached him there.

[pop rock]

Clapping Sound

[Clapping Music by Steve Reich]

CH: This is a piece called Clapping Music, by the American composer Steve Reich. You are not wondering about the title -- the entire piece is two people clapping. And after any performance of Clapping Music, the whole audience claps -- which is sort of like everyone in an audience playing saxophones to celebrate a saxophone performance. But I digress. Now, you may have questions about this piece, but you are not asking the question, "why does clapping make the sound of clapping?" I mean, it's because it's clapping. Case closed! But hold your applause: you and I are not mechanical engineers with a particular expertise in fluid mechanics. Unless you are. You are?! Okay. Okay. Well, then, tell me if I get this explanation right. [music fades] According to a new study, the sound of clapping is due to something called a "Helmholtz resonator" -- which is an enclosed cavity full of air, which opens out via a shaft. For example, an empty bottle. We blow across the top, it vibrates the air inside. In the case of clapping, the Helmholtz resonator -- the cavity -- is formed when our hands come together. The pressure blasts air out of that cavity through the little gap between the index finger of one hand and the thumb of the other. And that jet vibrates the air above our hands. And that's why clapping sounds exactly like clapping. The end.

[clapping]

CH: Thank you! Thank you so much! I appreciate your tremendous enthusiasm. I know you didn't want to give me a standing ovation -- but when I busted out the Helmholtz resonator, I really forced your hand.

[jaunty show tune]

Part 2: Tariffs: U.S. Agriculture, AB Child Advocate

Tariffs: U.S. Agriculture

Guest: Gary Wertish

CH: Since U.S. President Donald Trump first started talking about putting tariffs on Canadian goods, we've heard from a lot of people warning about the potentially devastating effects on Canada's economy. But things could get ugly in various sectors of the U.S. economy as well. Gary Wertish is the president of the Minnesota Farmers Union -- one of several groups raising concerns about the impact of tariffs on American farmers. He attended President DonaldTrump's joint address to Congress last night. So, he was in the room when the president had this message for farmers.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Our new trade policy will also be great for the American farmer. I love the farmer. [cheers and clapping] Who will now be selling into our home market, the USA, because nobody is going to be able to compete with you. The tariffs will go on agricultural product coming into America, and our, our farmers starting on April 2nd, it may be a little bit of an adjustment period. We had that before when I made the deal with China, $50 billion of purchases, and I said, just bear with me. And they did. They did.

CH: We reached Gary Wertish today in St. Paul, Minnesota.

NK: Gary, you were there last night as your president gave this address. He says he loves farmers. Does what is happening feel like love to you?

GARY WERTISH: No, it doesn't. You know, putting out another tariff on Canada, and Mexico, and then China, it doesn't feel like love. We still remember, the farmers, we still remember what happened, you know, in his first term in 2018 when he started the trade wars. And, you know, at that time, it was heavily against, primarily against China. You know, in the United States, in Minnesota, we export, I believe, two-thirds of our soybeans go to, are exported into, China's our primary market. And we've never gotten our markets back. Right now, China's incentivized China to invest in Brazil and Argentina. And their farmers started, you know, put more acres into soybeans. So, we're selling less soybeans now to China than we were before the tariff. Really, you know, you're in Canada, it's going to hurt farmers on both sides of the border.

NK: So, so given what you've said, given that you're all still recovering, and the president went on to say the tariffs are actually going to benefit farmers, and that, that, broadly speaking, consumers as well as farmers and other businesses need to, to quote, bear with him. It is, is that a realistic assessment in your view, that this is going to be a benefit, even if it hurts right now?

GW: No, it really isn't. It's, it's going to cause long-term damage. And a lot of it is, you know, it's destroying our trust as a reliable trading partner around the globe. You know, we're, you know, you look at Canada and United States, we've been doing free trade amongst the border for, I believe, 35 years now. And stuff goes back and forth numerous times, you know, whether it's machinery or livestock. And I believe it was Canada, I was at a meeting with the Canadian minister and Mexican ambassador, and they said it was over $2 trillion worth of goods trades back and forth between the three countries. So, you know, it's, it doesn't seem like he really understands what the effect of tariffs are. As a farmer, we import the vast majority of our potash from Canada as a soil nutrient. I can't, if I', raising corn, I can't add a 25 per cent tax to my corn as I sell it. So, we're in a global economy, and we have been for years. And, you know, we're so intertwined around the globe in various industries and in agriculture and all that. So, we, we rely on each other and we need to trade amongst each other.

NK: And you mentioned potash. We should let our listeners know that the U.S. imports upwards of 80 per cent of its potash from Canada. As you were sitting there, and it was important for you clearly to be there to hear the U.S. president deliver this, this address to a joint session of Congress. How were you reacting as he addressed you and other farmers directly?

GW: Well, it was challenging in general. The night before, he made the comment that farmers, U.S. farmers, get ready to sell all of your stuff domestically and, and have fun. Well, you know, the United States and Minnesota, we're, we're fortunate enough we have, we have very good farmland, we have a good livestock industry, so we, we cannot consume everything we produce domestically. So, you know, if we lose our export markets, there's nothing, there's no more place to replace them. So, I mean, it's not realistic to say. And then he said, have fun. Well, that, that's disappointing to hear that. Right now, the farmers, we're dealing with high inputs and low prices. So, the margins are not there in agriculture right now. So, it's, you know, it's not a very fun time on the farm now. And to say that, that's pretty disheartening that this is farmers' livelihoods we're talking about. The more this drags on, it will drive farmers off the land. It'll drive more further consolidation, which is not a benefit of everybody. It hurts not only the farmer but hurts the rural communities.

NK: So, how are you coping with that current reality, and the possibilities of what could come?

GW: Well, it's a challenge. And, you know, obviously, you know, working and working our elected officials, trying to point out the effects of tariffs. And even the Republicans, there is some concern on the tariffs and what they'll do. And I know the farmers, a lot of the farmers did vote for the president, but they're concerned with the damage that's going to happen with the, you know, potentially happen with tariffs. And if we get into the tariff war, they're already talking about retaliatory tariffs, both Canada and Mexico and then the United States, you know, so where does this all end? You know, that's, that's the concern. And the longer this drags on, the more damage it does.

NK: Andrew Leimgruber is a farmer from California who was speaking to Fox News about all of this, and

was asked about the, the upcoming April tariffs. And in answering those questions, he said he believes that there might be some, some benefits, some positive things to come out of this. That's his view. We'll listen now together to a little bit of what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW LEIMGRUBER: There are several crops in our area that used to be prolific, like asparagus, table grapes, dates, and we just have seen diminished acres over the past years Because I farm in California, we have some of the highest regulatory taxes. Our minimum wage is $16.50 an hour. And when we're competing with countries like Mexico, who have a similar climate to ours, it's very difficult for us to be competitive.

NK: What do you make of, of, of what Andrew Leimgruber is saying there, Gary? Are there scenarios and specific farming scenarios in different parts of the country where this could be a good thing and could play well?

GW: Well, it's very possible, but it's still a long-term damage. You know, and that's, that's our concern, destroying our trust as a reliable trading partner around the globe. And, you know, obviously a lot of the imports we get from other countries is because of cheap labour. Well, I don't think, you know, I don't think we want to change our policies to have our workers work for less, too. But, you know, and it's not realistic to get rid of all regulation.

NK: In terms of conversations you're having with your Canadian counterparts, people you do business with or deal with, you know, how are you feeling about those relationships despite what is happening at the official levels?

GW: Well, there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of concern. You know, I think that's, that's the big thing. Nobody knows where this is going to end. You know, we know we have to work together, and we need stability. We have, you know, there's a lot of things out of the farmer's control, whether primarily is, is out of our control. And we have to deal, we deal with that all the time. But this is putting another level of uncertainty out to the farmer. And, you know, we don't need that right now.

NK: Gary, thanks for your time. Please take care.

CH: Gary Wertish is the president of the Minnesota Farmers Union. We reached him in St. Paul, Minnesota. Donald Trump's tariffs are already having an impact on farmers here in Canada. Tony Scott co-owns an organic farm in the Estrie region of Quebec, and is part of a longstanding co-op of Quebec and Vermont growers. He says that, right now, farmers like him are being forced to choose between absorbing the cost of tariffs -- and losing up to 70 per cent of their buyers. He told Radio Noon in Quebec that that's not just having a financial impact; it's having an emotional impact too.

SOUNDCLIP

TONY SCOTT: Well, you know, I think in a way, we're probably all, and so many people across this country, feeling pretty drained. It's very draining. It's, you know, it's stressful at times. It's an opportunity to, to try to think clearly and stay calm. But it's hard not to have it feel like a pretty aggressive act. And when you, when you mix that in with some of the, the rhetoric and the images that I took in last night watching Trump's speech, there's an effort to humiliate people. And so, yeah, it's tough. It's, it's not a pleasant feeling at all.

LEAH HENDRY: And what have you decided to do about the tariffs, or what can you do?

TS: Well, we as the group of seven Canadian farms involved in this co-op, we've met a number of times in the last weeks to see what we could do. Because really, the 25 per cent represents, you know, a huge amount of money, let's say, over the course of a year. It's kind of scary to think of it. So, in the short term, though, we decided as a group that we wanted to shelter our, our American brothers and sisters in this co-op from this thing. And we also did not want to be involved in just passing this cost directly on to our buyers. Because we certainly were afraid of what that might do to our place in the market. I think it might dry up very quickly if we were to do that. So, we have decided to take on the full 25 per cent as individual farms. So, that means if I have a shipment going tomorrow of, let's say, $1,000, then I will personally pay $250 out of, out of the sales.

LH: Wow. Wow.

CH: That’s farmer Tony Scott, speaking with CBC Quebec's Leah Hendry.

[chillhop house tour music]

Ramadan Meals

CH: This Ramadan, Ala'a Adib's younger brother is on her mind. He was shot and killed more than four years ago in Toronto, at the age of 21. And as a way to commemorate him -- and a way to heal, and give back to her community -- she launched an organization in his name called Smile for Sache. For the fourth year in a row, the organization is providing meals to those in need during Ramadan. Ala'a Adib joined the CBC for an interview this morning -- and talked about what happened to her brother in 2020.

SOUNDCLIP

ALA'A ADIB: Sache is my younger brother. He passed away in 2020 due to gun violence. He went to Toronto Metropolitan University, worked at the airport, and was my youngest brother.

DAVID COMMON: This was a case of mistaken identity.

AA: Yeah.

DC: What happened?

AA: He was walking towards his car in Mississauga, and two people shot him over 30 times. I actually saw it on the news. I saw that a white BMW was shot. One person in custody. One person in jail, or one person in custody and one person deceased. And it was the same make and model of my brother's car, so I just went out to the location without knowing, just to see if it was him.

DC: And it was.

AA: And it was.

DC: You have turned that horrible day into something of charity, of compassion, of gratitude, of good. And right now, you are preparing and offering meals.

AA: Yes.

DC: Tell me about just where you do that and who you're doing it for.

AA: Feed the Fasting is our flagship program, started four years ago. And it was to just figure out a way to do ongoing charity. We started off by the first three days doing it for my brother. And after that, I knew that we need to do it for other people in the city because we've all been affected by this. And it's just a way that we can all remember loved ones, give back to our community. We've been feeding newcomers, people in need, and people breaking their fast at the mosque. Made over 13,000 meals over the past three years. We're currently doing it in five different cities this year, so we're doing it in Ottawa this weekend. We did it in Edmonton last weekend. Minnesota on the 15th and 16th. And Columbus, Ohio on the 22nd and 23rd, as well as London, U.K. every weekend, so.

DC: Wow! This is, this is big.

AA: It is bigger than me, and it's, I'm just grateful because it's giving an opportunity to give back to people. And I remember last year somebody came in to Feed the Fasting, and I was like, hey, is it your first time? And she's like, yeah. And then I'm like, congratulations for coming out, putting yourself out there, and like, being a part of this. And she's like, don't make me cry. And I'm like, no, seriously. Like, congratulations. Like, this is a huge deal. And then she started crying. And then I was like, I'm sorry. And she's like, no, you don't understand. I wasn't able to fly to my grandfather and cousin's funeral because I didn't have enough money, and this is the only way I could do something to give back to them. So, after hearing that, I realized how impactful that is for everybody. And I want to make sure to, like, make this intentional, give more people opportunities to help out, and just bring it around to different cities.

CH: That was Ala'a Adib, the founder of Smile for Sache, speaking with the CBC's David Common, host of Metro Morning in Toronto.

[ambient]

AB Child Advocate

Guest: Terri Pelton

CH: As Alberta's Child and Youth Advocate, Terri Pelton is primarily concerned -- as you'd expect -- with children and youth. But this week, she's concerned about something else, too: a proposed change to the way Alberta monitors the deaths of young adults formerly in provincial care. Until now, Ms. Pelton's office has been empowered to investigate any such deaths -- up to the age of 22. But a bill that was tabled in the legislature last week would cap that reporting two years earlier -- at age 20. And she says that could have potentially serious consequences for Albertans of all ages. We reached Terri Pelton in Saddle Lake, Alberta.

NK: Terri, how did you first find out about this proposed change?

TERRI PELTON: Well, the the ministry let me know that there was going to be some changes in an omnibus red tape reduction bill. And when we were talking about it, I had let them know that I couldn't agree with a reduction in age for the young people we were reviewing. The other changes, because there were four other changes introduced at the same time, are ones that I think are good changes that aren't going to limit my abilities or reduce the transparency or accountability of government. The one that I am really concerned about and very opposed to is reducing the age to 20.

NK: And in terms of the why for you -- because as our listeners heard, your Alberta's child and youth advocate -- we are talking about young adults here, people over the age of 18. Why is, is this part of it such a concern for you?

TP: Well, because if, if the, if the government has been the guardian for a child, if they pass away in their early 20s, I think we need to know that. And Albertans need to know that, so that we can improve the services and support that they receive before they become adults. And if we don't know that long-term outcome, we can't improve the services. So, I've talked a lot in Alberta about increasing supports and services for young adults leaving care. That for most Albertan families, they don't even think about it. They raise their children, and they continue to support them well into their 20s -- most families. Because if the young person makes a mistake and gets evicted, or they can't pay a bill, or they need help figuring out how to get a social insurance number or a driver's license, they've got family to rely on. These young people, if the government has been their guardian, they come from disrupted families where they don't have those same relationships and connections that will help them become successful, functioning adults.

NK: Why do you believe this is happening now? Why do you think the government is doing this?

TP: I don't, I don't have a good handle on it, other than the minister saying that he wanted my office to focus on young people under the age of 18, which I take some of an exception to. Because I think we do a really good job on focusing on those young people already, as well as doing the reporting that we're doing. We serve over 6,000 young people a year through our direct advocacy services, and those are primarily children under the age of 18. We do child death reviews and serious injuries for a number of young people who are under the age of 18. Last year, there was 20 out of 83, I think, that were young adults that we did the reviews on. And this year, today, I think there's 10. So, it's not going to make a big difference in our workload. So, I'm not sure why.

NK: We did reach out to Alberta's children's services minister, Searle Turton. We hope to have a statement to share with our listeners as soon as we get it, of course. In the meantime, though, he did speak with our CBC News colleague Janet French about this issue last week. So, we'll play for you and our listeners a little bit of what the minister said on that front.

SOUNDCLIP

SEARLE TURTON: So, there there's still discretionary reporting that the OCYA can do from the ages of 18 to 20 minus one day. But really, again, the focus is going to be on those kids that are under the age of 18 and or within a care. Those will still be mandatory reviews. And we want to make sure that the OCYA, as well as our ministry, is just hyper-focused on those kids that are truly under the purview of CFS.

NK: The OCYA is the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate. How do you respond to that, Terri, this, this idea that, that you should focus on children and their well-being?

TP: Again, I really believe that we're already doing that. But for those young people leaving care who don't have the natural connections that they need and the supports that they need, we are the only body that reviews their death. And so, once I'm unable to review, like, the 21, 22 and 23 year olds, nobody will do that.

NK: And what kind of things have those investigations that your office, the reviews, the injury and death reviews, conducted by your office, what kinds of things have been revealed in the past through your work?

TP: Sure. Our recommendations are, we've done a lot of recommendations about the need for early intervention, supporting young people to stay connected to their family and to their community. I'm out on Nation today. And again, especially for the Indigenous young people, if they aren't connected to their culture, and to their community, and a very strong sense of identity, we're seeing very poor outcomes for them. Other things that we've talked about for that age group is really the impact of the toxic drug supply and opioids, and that need for every young person to have at least one person in their life before they're launched, that is their person that helps them navigate systems. And if they don't know how to get a driver's license, help them do that. Or if they can't pay a bill, somebody who can help them, even if it's making an application for disability services. So, that, that need for one strong connection, the need to be connected to who they are and have a strong sense of identity. And really, early intervention really helps children and families do better.

NK: I wonder how you're feeling, you know, in terms of whether this will actually go through, or if this part of it might be withdrawn from the proposed legislation. You know, you're fighting back. The NDP critic on this portfolio has called this, quote, reckless. Do you think there's a, there's a window of opportunity and a chance that this will be taken out?

TP: I'm not sure. I'm not, I'm not a political genius. So, I have asked for a legal opinion to give me some advice related to that. I also don't think that the sky is falling. And if it does go through, we'll find other ways to advocate for these young adults. I can provide advice to government on any matter related to young people. They haven't taken that out of the legislation. And so, we will do whatever we can to continue to elevate their voices and have their opinions heard in other ways.

NK: Terri, I thank you for your time.

TP: Thanks so much.

CH: Terri Pelton is Alberta's provincial Child and Youth Advocate. We reached her in Saddle Lake, Alberta. In a statement we received after our conversation with Ms. Pelton, Alberta's Children and Family Services Ministry told us in part, quote, "Proposed changes will help streamline reporting requirements helping the Child and Youth Advocate to focus on children and youth currently or recently receiving child intervention services. This will lead to a more efficient recommendation process with more responsive improvements." Unquote.

[indie rock]

Part 3: Sudbury Advocate, Tariffs: Buffalo Restaurant

Florida AG Tates

CH: They may have landed safely in Florida. But that doesn't mean that Andrew and Tristan Tate are safe. As we told you on the program last week, the self-described misogynists and accused rapists were charged with a slew of crimes in Romania, including human trafficking, sex with a minor, and money-laundering. They've both denied any wrongdoing. The Financial Times reported that the Trump administration had pressured the Romanian government to lift travel restrictions on the brothers, which allowed them to fly to the U.S. But they may not necessarily have escaped prosecution. Yesterday, Florida Attorney General James Uthmeier announced that he has begun an active criminal investigation into the brothers.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES UTHMEIER: Yeah, look, these guys have themselves publicly admitted to participating in what very much appears to be soliciting, trafficking, preying upon women around the world. Many of these victims coming forward, some of them minors. You know, people can spin or defend however they want. But in Florida, this type of behaviour is viewed as atrocious. We're not going to accept it. They chose to come here and set their feet down in this state. And we're going to pursue every tool we have within our legal authority to hold them accountable. So, we we are in the process today. We have secured and executed subpoenas and warrants, and we're going to continue to move forward with full force of law. This is an ongoing criminal investigation, and we're going to use every tool we have to ensure that justice is served.

REPORTER: You've opened a criminal investigation?

JU: There is an active criminal investigation, yes.

REPORTER: Do you believe that there, can you, can you give any details of what --

JU: I can't comment on a pending investigation, but what I can tell you is if these guys did criminal activity here in Florida, we will go after them with the full force of law and hold them accountable.

CH: That was Florida Attorney General James Uthmeier speaking to reporters yesterday.

[hop-hop]

Sudbury Advocate

Guest: Paul Pasanen

CH: A lot of people who grow up in small towns and small cities dream of leaving. Especially if they don't feel quite at home there. But then there are people like Paul Pasanen, who stay, or go back to their small town of city -- and try to bring about the kind of change they want to see. Mr. Pasanen is the founder of SQUAD -- Sudbury Queers United Around Diversity. It's an organization in Ontario that advocates for inclusion, and highlights queer voices. He's also one of 30,000 Canadians to be awarded the King Charles the Third Coronation Medal -- which is given to people who have made a significant contribution to their community, province, or Canada as a whole. We reached Paul Pasanen in Sudbury, Ontario.

NK: Paul, if you were to go back in time, what do you think your younger self would make of all of this recognition?

PAUL PASANEN: Oh, he'd be quaking in terror.

NK: [laughing] Why?

PP: The notoriety, for one thing, is not something my younger self, or my present self, is super comfortable with. But just the visibility, you know, and the exposure would have been very threatening. My younger self lived in a world that wasn't safe, and this world we have today is somewhat safer -- not completely

NK: Still, today, all these years later. After all the work you've done.

PP: Oh yeah, well. [chuckling]

NK: The realities of the time we're living in.

PP: The realities of the time are such that, and of course, I do not live in a major city. I live in, you know, Sudbury, Ontario, which is north and fairly rural. And northern and rural parts of Canada have a much different ecosystem culturally when it, when it comes to diversity, such as what we're talking about today.

NK: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. Just in terms of how you were growing up when you were growing up in Sudbury, you alluded to it a little bit just at the start of our conversation. But what was it like for you growing up there?

PP: Confusing, considering, you know, there was no talk of any, you know, diverse sexuality or, or gender or anything like that. It didn't exist other than sort of in disgusted whispers. And you know what I, yeah, it was confusing, and it took me a long time to come to terms with what my sexual awakening was telling me. And if you look in the dictionary or the, you know, the medical encyclopedias, or the encyclopedias, you know, you got definitions of what a gay sexuality was. It was, you know, illegal, it was mental illness, and it was an affront to God and man, you know? And that that is how I understood who I was as a very young boy. And, and it took a while to come to terms with that. So, confusion was very much a part of, of my adolescent life.

NK: I'm sorry for your younger self, Paul that you had to go through that.

PP: So am I. [laughing]

NK: Yeah, but you, you came to terms with it. And then, you made decisions about how you wanted to live, where you wanted to live.

PP: It took years. It took years.

NK: Yeah?

PP: And, and a lot of self-searching and a lot of escaping. You know, I left Sudbury, as I say, I escaped Sudbury. [soft chuckle] And I lived in Ottawa for a while. And then, the AIDS epidemic hit, and I escaped that and came back to Sudbury.

NK: And when you came back, you, you know, at which point did you decide I'm going to go back, but I'm also going to try to make some change, and become an advocate, become a fighter on the frontlines of this?

PP: I'm going to be, well, I'll be brutally honest. With the AIDS epidemic, being surrounded by people who are getting sick like my friends, my acquaintances, you know, people I knew in my community in Ottawa, I came, I left, coming back home to the Sudbury area, convinced that I was probably going to die. Because that was just what was happening at the time. So, yeah, it took a little while for me to get brave enough to get a test and to find out I was HIV negative. And I really didn't have a plan B, okay? So, it took a while to come to terms with --

NK: Survival.

PP: Yeah, to come to terms with, okay, what am I going to do? And get an education, find some jobs, you know, have a life. And then, I got involved in organizations. Here in Sudbury, there was a very a vibrant and viable organization called Sudbury All Gay Alliance at the time. And, you know, they had a call-in line, and they, they held dances, and I joined them. And I became, eventually I was on the board and I was very much involved, you know, in the late '80s and throughout the '90s.

NK: And then, you founded SQUAD as well as as part of your work.

PP: Well, yeah. SQUAD. SQUAD started about three, 3.5 years ago as a discussion of, you know, what does, what do we need? It basically evolved out of the need that people were having. So, we've maintained an invisibility. And because we've learned to, to just protect ourselves that way. So, there is still a lot of, a lot of stigma, and a lot of misinformation, and a lot of prejudice.

NK: People who are outspoken in terms of anti-LGBTQ+ hate and protesters have become more visible, as I understand it, in Sudbury and elsewhere.

PP: Yes.

NK: What have you seen?

PP: Well, for the first time in my life, a year-and-a-half ago or so, I saw protests against, against me personally, like, my people, you know? Six foot signs on, on placards, you know, denouncing queer people and queer education as grooming and, and as, as sick pedophile kind of concepts. And it's just, it was heartbreaking and retraumatizing, let me just tell you.

NK: And the work you've done created a pathway for younger activists. What advice would you give to them in this moment?

PP: Stay visible, stay strong, and maintain a voice. And we have to come together as a community. And I think that's, that's the big part is pull together as a community. And, and be open to building relationships and community with other queer people.

NK: You mentioned at the outset of our conversation the terror your younger self would have felt because of the realities around you, and not wanting the attention. And then, there are the realities of today. Is there room for you to feel proud in this moment?

PP: It's a work in progress. If I look back, I'm getting some sense of, you know, where I've been, where I, where, what I've had to come through. And the, you know, the lifelong kind of journey of, of being openly queer in northern and rural Ontario. Yeah, it's a challenge. And, you know, I, I've survived. [laughing] I've reached old age. That's the accomplishment.

NK: Well, there's many more there too, Paul. But I really appreciate your, your candor. Thank you for this.

PP: Thank you.

CH: Paul Pasanen is the founder of Sudbury Queers United Around Diversity, or SQUAD. And he's a recipient of the King Charles III Coronation Medal for his advocacy work within the queer community. We reached him in Sudbury, Ontario.

[folk rock]

Jeff Douglas

CH: There's something very Canadian about having strong feelings about a decades-old beer commercial. And I'm not talking about "Me and the boys and our 50". Not today, anyway. I'm talking about this.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Hey, I'm a I'm not a lumberjack or a fur trader, and I don't live in an igloo, or eat blubber, or own a dog sled, and I don't know Jimmy, Sally or Susie from Canada, although I'm certain they're really, really nice. I have a prime minister, not a president. I speak English and French, not American, and I pronounce it about not a boot.

CH: A little bit of a Molson Canadian ad from the year 2000 -- a soliloquy celebrating our national identity delivered by a plaid-shirt-wearing guy known as "Joe From Canada". But, of course, long-time As It Happens listeners know "Joe" as Jeff. Jeff Douglas, the actor in that ad, co-hosted this program for years, before moving on to host Mainstreet on CBC Radio in Halifax. And even newcomers to this program might recall that Jeff spoke to Nil not long ago, about a resurgence of interest in the "I Am Canadian" ad -- which began when the leader of the country to our south began exhibiting a strange fixation on our country.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: For me, as soon as people started talking about buy Canadian, and, you know, you sort of see this, this surge in how people are feeling in Canada, I immediately thought of your ad. But when did you realize that it was, it was clicking with people again?

JD: People were, some people were tagging me on socials directly, and, you know, saying, Jeff, it's time to do these again. Or, hey, we need these back again, these commercials. And then, other just happening across it too. That's been happening more recently. Initially, it was just people tagging me. But then, now, it's, it seems to have gathered a little more steam.

CH: It appears the steam the old ad was picking up has moved Jeff to pick up where he left off, a quarter-century ago. Today, he posted this on social media...

SOUNDCLIP

JD: Hey, I know it's in our nature to cut a guy some slack. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Like, maybe he was confused, or just joking, or just maybe really needed a Double-Double. But this isn't that guy. These aren't those people. And those are not the Rockies. They make a lot of mistakes. They mistake our modesty for meekness. Our kindness for consent. Our nation for another star on their flag. And our love of a hot, cheesy poutine with their love of a hot, cheesy Putin. They think they can bully us, threaten us, and push us around, but they do not know us. That artificially drawn line they keep talking about, not artificial. And it's not on a map. It's right here. This is the land that Terry ran. The land that Gord sang about. This is the birthplace of peanut butter, and ketchup chips, and yoga pants. It is the land of universal health care and the bench-clearing brawl. Of innovation, and optimism, and gettin' er done. This is the land of the peace keeper and the Shawinigan Handshake. Are we perfect? No, but we are not the 51st anything. We are the first to unite in a crisis. The first to build bridges, not walls. And the first to stand on guard for thee. My name is Jeff, and we are Canadian. Thank you.

CH: From a new video, that was Jeff Douglas, former co-host of As It Happens and current host of Mainstreet in Halifax, and the actor from the "I Am Canadian" ad.

[electronic]

SOD: 911 Todler

CH: 911 dispatchers have to be ready for anything. You never know what kind of emergency awaits you on the other end of line. The police department in Moore, Oklahoma recently took the opportunity to remind us of the incredible breadth of challenging calls -- not to mention challenging callers -- dispatchers must contend with.

SOUNDCLIP

DISPATCHER: Moore 911, what's the address of your emergency.

TODDLER: What?

DISPATCHER: Hello, 911.

TODDLER: What?

DISPATCHER: Do you have an emergency?

TODDLER: [not proper speech at all] [phone hangs up and reconnects].

DISPATCHER: Hello?

TODDLER: I want to eat doughnuts.

DISPATCHER: Doughnuts?! I want doughnuts!

TODDLER: 911, It's an emergency. 911, It's an emergency. I'm going to take you to Mommy.

DISPATCHER: You're going to take me to Mommy now?

TODDLER: I want to eat doughnuts.

MOMMY: Hello?

TODDLER: I want to eat doughnuts.

DISPATCHER: Can I talk to Mom?

TODDLER: Bye!!!

CH: Two back-to-back calls to 911 from an Oklahoma toddler -- who, as you heard, was in the midst of a doughnut emergency, and therefore in desperate need of an emergency doughnut. Police did head to his home to deliver said doughnut. And, you know, also to alert the child's caregivers -- and really, all of us -- that old cellphones can still make emergency calls. So just make sure that function is turned off, before letting a toddler fritter away their time on it. That was our Sound of the Day.

[hip-hop]

Buffalo Restaurant

Guest: Chris Harter

CH: The Peace Bridge between Buffalo, New York and Fort Erie, Ontario is one of the busiest border crossings in North America. Every year, tens of thousands of Canadians head to Buffalo for back-to-school shopping, or concerts, or to catch a game. And Visit Buffalo Niagara, their tourism agency, knows that. In January, the agency launched an ad campaign to entice Canadians to spend money in the area. And then came Donald Trump's trade war. The ad campaign was promptly shut down. And now, people like Chris Harter are wondering what will happen next. He's the owner of Johnny D's steakhouse in downtown Buffalo. And that's where we reached him.

NK: Chris, how would you describe your restaurant's connection to Canada?

CHRIS HARTER: Very close. We're only about a mile from the Canadian border, so we have a lot of Canadian visitors, particularly from Toronto area.

NK: And so, what, you're in downtown Buffalo, what is it like, what does it sound and look like at your restaurant when the Leafs are in town?

CHRIS HARTER: Oh, when the when the Leafs are in town, it's amazing. It's like there's a home game for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

NK: Yeah. And the menu is a factor here as well. It's not just Canadians ordering from that menu. You source a lot of stuff from our country, right?

CHRIS HARTER: Yeah we do. We get a lot of our seafood is from Canada, particularly our oysters. They're from Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. And I'm willing to pay more for the oysters because they're terrific.

NK: They are, yeah. But what about the rest of the menu?

CHRIS HARTER: I have to be nimble, just see, just see how things are going. I have no idea what the impact is going to be totally. So, I just have to just watch it and see what I could afford to do, and what I can afford to pass on to the guest, and what I can't afford to pass on. I do know that the Nova Scotia products are products I'm not willing to, to not have.

NK: You know your customers want those?

CHRIS HARTER: Exactly. Yep.

NK: Buffalo has certainly gone through a lot. It's hard to, to run a small business, to own a small business at any time. But, but even now. So, you know, I can hear in your voice you're trying to, to stay calm and and take things as they come. That's probably a very smart thing to do, given how much uncertainty there is. But what's the sense with, with your fellow business owners there about what, what could happen, and how much of a, you know, we're hearing this buy Canadian energy from people here. Do you think that they are going to just stop coming?

CHRIS HARTER: I hope not, right? And, and for me, it's like, I don't know what I don't know, right? So, we'll just, we just have to look at it every day and just see, see how things are happening. I, I don't know that the tariffs are going to keep people from coming here, right? But the question is do you have to raise my prices? To change my menu? Those are the sort of things that are in flux.

NK: Yeah. And how, what's your timeline for having to make those kinds of decisions?

CHRIS HARTER: So, I guess, so I'm nimble. I can make them quick. [NK chuckles] Literally, literally the end of the day, right? So, so what I, in fact, I was I was pleasantly surprised to see my seafood and my Sysco invoice today not have any influx at all, right? So, I didn't have to react at all yet. So, I'll react when I need to react.

NK: I think the next time the Leafs are in town in Buffalo, April 15th, if, if we, if we're correct. So, I mean, are you hoping this will all be over by then?

CHRIS HARTER: I was told it would be all over last month. [NK chuckles] So the, yeah, when the Maple Leafs are in town, the, the crowd is amazing, and it's like a home game for the Leafs. So, I hope, I hope it's done. I, I don't know the dynamics, the macrodynamics, but I just hope it doesn't affect me as much as I think it could.

NK: Yeah. A lot of people here were certainly, even government officials, and even knowing what the U.S. president from his first administration, first time in office was like, they were still caught off guard by this because, just like you and your customers, there's a close relationship overall between our two countries. Did this all surprise you, how, how much it escalated.

CHRIS HARTER: So, so surprisingly real quickly when it first happened. And then the next day, it was gone, right? So, I've just been in a wait and see mentality, and I'm surprised that phase two didn't go away right away.

NK: Well, we'll see what happens next, Chris.

CHRIS HARTER: Yeah, yeah. No, I get you, I get you.

NK: Thank you.

CHRIS HARTER: Thank you so much.

CH: Chris Harter is the owner of Johnny D's steakhouse in downtown Buffalo. That's where we reached him.

[lounge jazz]

Eagle VS Goose:

CH: For an amateur nature photographer in Burlington, Ontario, it was a chance to capture a rarely seen wildlife face-off: Canada goose versus bald eagle. But when Mervyn Sequeira posted those photos of the iconic Canadian waterfowl fighting the iconic American airfowl online, the symbolism of that particular match up at this particular moment really caught Canadians' attention. Mr. Sequeira talked to our colleagues at CBC Hamilton about what went down -- and who came out on top.

SOUNDCLIP

MERVYN SEQUEIRA: It was late morning, around 11 or 1130 in the morning, and the wife, daughter, and I usually go out for a hike. And on Sunday, we chose to go to LaSalle, because in winter, LaSalle is a great refuge for a lot of waterfowl, geese, swans, ducks that come in. So, we were there, and we saw this bald eagle coming in, and going in to attack a Canada goose that was on the ice. The bald eagle went in and the whole encounter lasted close to 20 minutes. The bald eagle made several attempts to attack the goose. Even though the goose was unwell, it put up quite a fight. And when we thought that it was really over for the goose, strangely, the bald eagle just gave up and left. But it's quite unusual to see a bald eagle taking, taking on a Canada goose. And in all my years, this is the first time I've seen it. So, it is a bit unusual. So, that's, that was fascinating for me.

AURA CARREÑO ROSAS: And so ,what did you think about, about this encounter? I mean, as probably everybody knows, there have, you know, we have some complicated relationships with our neighbors south of the border. Did you see it as a symbol of the times that we're living in, or not really?

MS: So, it seems to be very, I don't like to get into politics, but, but it's very symbolic. And when I posted those pictures on Instagram, I only posted them in terms of what happened. Not putting a political spin on it. However, there were lots of people who looked at it in the political context. From the naturalist point of view, that is nature. That's how a nature works. But we're living in a slightly polarized world just now, so some people looked at it differently.

CH: Mervyn Sequeira is an amateur nature photographer from Oakville, Ontario who captured the unintentionally symbolic showdown between a Canada goose and a bald eagle in nearby Burlington. He was speaking with the CBC's Aura Carreño Rosas.

Accordion Player Obit

CH: Frank Maher was renowned for his skill on the accordion. But to his friends and collaborators, the Newfoundland and Labrador musician will be remembered for a lot more than that. Mr. Maher died on the weekend -- just a few days before his 91st birthday. Tributes have been pouring in from across the province, as fellow musicians recall his warmth, his many talents, and his near-encyclopedic knowledge of traditional accordion music. Fiddler Christina Smith played alongside Mr. Maher for years in his group the Mahers Bahers -- that's M-A-H-E-R B-A-H-E-R-S. She lives in the historic Battery neighbourhood in St. John's, where Mr. Maher was raised, and first learned to play the accordion.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRISTINA SMITH: He was born just before the war and wound up a busking to the Canadian Forces from a flat bottomed boat with his harmonica to, to get money. He, he learned to accordion from his mother, and also from Frank Stamp, who was the accordion player just around the corner. There's a place in the Battery called that is known as The Letter because the Stamps lived on the corner. Anyways, he, [chuckling] he used to go down and stand by the window of the dance hall there and listen to Frank Stamp play the accordion. And that's where he learned a lot of his tunes.

KRISSY HOLMES: No way!

CS: Yeah, seriously. He knew so much about the music. He, he was a walking encyclopedia of accordion music, and Irish music, and also vaudeville. He, he collected all kinds of old recordings. When I met him in the 1980s, he was sending away for, for recordings, reissued recordings of the old people that recorded on, on 78s. And you could ask him anything about it, and he would, he would know. Like I say, he was a walking encyclopedia.

KH: And didn't just play the accordion. You mentioned too, Christina, he played the harmonica, right? He was a singer and a humourist.

CS: Well, he wouldn't have called himself a humourist, but he was the wittiest men that I ever encountered. He had, and a quirky sense of humour. But he was, it's funny that he, he wouldn't have called himself a teacher, but, but so many of us learned so much from him. Playing with Frank was, was like, it was like being on the caboose on the bullet train. I mean, you know, the energy and the drive. And it was all coming from him. You know, he would be the most energetic performer on the stage, just crazy, and so much fun to play with. Just to give you one story. We went to hear Ian Rob, my, my husband Chris and I went to hear Ian Rob. And here was Frank at the same concert. And I, Chris tapped him on the wrong shoulder because that's what Frank would do to you. He tapped you on the wrong shoulder, and you turn around the wrong way, right? So, anyways, so we tapped him on the wrong shoulder. And, of course, he turned around the right way. Then he said, Chris, said Frank, he said, I almost called you this morning. And quick as a flash, Frank said, oh, he said, that must have been when the phone almost rang, and I almost picked it up. [both chuckle] Just as quick as a flash.

CH: Christina Smith is a fiddle player and a friend of Frank Maher. She was talking with Krissy Holmes, host of On the Go. Mr. Maher died on Sunday at the age of 90.

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The AIH Transcript For March 05, 2025

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