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The AIH transcript for March 04, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A costly mistake. As U.S. tariffs kick in, and Canada retaliates, one Canadian business owner tells us how the start of a potentially expensive trade war is looking from the aisles of his stores.

CH: Counter argument. The prime minister says Canada is prepared to fight a trade war with the United States. One of his cabinet ministers explains just how prepared.

NK: Supplies and demands. After a breakdown in ceasefire negotiations, Israel blocks all aid from entering Gaza. An Israeli human rights advocate is petitioning the country's supreme court to stop what she calls a clear violation of international law

CH: Address unknown. We’ll hear from a recently fired USAID worker, who will be in attendance tonight when President Trump addresses Congress.

NK: They would love to be feeling left out. Point Roberts, Washington, relies on neighbouring B.C. for everything from drinking water and electricity to land access to their community. A resident tells us tariffs could leave the town unlivable.

CH: And...from his privates collection. A retired entomologist in the Yukon tells us why he's putting together an exhibit featuring glass sculptures of beetle genitalia.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio that stresses the glass sculptures are fragile -- so be genital with them.

Part 1: Tariffs: Independent Grocer, Tariffs: Anita Anand, Yukon Entomologist Art

Tariffs: Independent Grocer

Guest: Giancarlo Trimarchi

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Today, the United States launched a trade war against Canada, their closest partner and ally, their closest friend.

CH: Well, it's already a historic day for the Canada-U.S. relationship. And it's not even done yet -- we're still waiting to hear Donald Trump's address to Congress, tonight. The U.S. President's long-threatened 25 per cent tariffs on nearly all Canadian goods have come into effect. And Canada has announced its response. The government says there will be 25 per cent retaliatory tariffs on $155 billion dollars worth of imported goods -- beginning immediately with a list worth $30 billion. Here's what Prime Minister Trudeau said this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Even the excuse that he's giving for these tariffs today of fentanyl is completely bogus, completely unjustified, completely false. So, we actually have to fold back on the one thing he has said repeatedly that what he wants is to see a total collapse of the Canadian economy. Because that'll make it easier to annex us is the second half of his thought. Now, first of all, that's never going to happen. We will never be the 51st state. But yeah, he can do damage to the Canadian economy. And he's started this morning. But he is rapidly going to find out as American families are going to find out that that's going to hurt people on both sides of the border. Americans will lose jobs. Americans will be paying more for groceries, for gas, for cars, for homes, because we have always done best when we work together.

CH: Prime Minister Trudeau, speaking earlier today. Staff at Giancarlo Trimarchi's stores have already been making changes in response to today's tariffs. He's the president of Vince's Market, an independent grocer with multiple stores in Ontario. He's also the honourary past chair of the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers. We talked to him last month, ahead of the previous tariff deadline, as his staff were putting made-in-Canada labels on products. We reached Giancarlo Trimarchi in Sharon, Ontario.

NK: Giancarlo, when you were on our program just a few weeks ago, you told us you were feeling some, you know, anxiety around all the uncertainty, but you were also excited about highlighting Canadian products that you have on your shelves for your customers. How are you feeling today?

GIANCARLO TRIMARCHI: Oh, disappointed, I would say. There's definitely a little bit of anger, you know, and a bit of that resentment that we're at this point again so many weeks later, when we had the sense that there would be a reprieve. So, disappointed, but still engaged and looking to find solutions.

NK: Just as I came into to speak with you, Giancarlo, across the wires, Reuters reporting that the U.S. commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, spoke to U.S. media and said that the U.S. president will, will reach a middle ground with Canada and Mexico on tariffs. And an announcement to that effect was expected on Wednesday. So, it's still not over, [chuckling] which you knew. And it's not funny. I chuckle, but it's certainly not funny.

GT: No, agreed, agreed.

NK: What does that throw into the mix for you?

GT: It just continues the lens of uncertainty. Now, I will say, you know, we are fortunate to be, I am fortunate to be in the food industry, where there's a constant demand for people to eat. And the supply chain for food in Canada is pretty diversified. So, we do have great partners, both locally across Canada as well as international, that there's a suitable food supply chain. But it will not, this will not go without having an impact on cost and price. And any disruption, you know, and this back and forth and constant delay, all it does is further provide uncertainty. And that often gets baked into prices and costing that risk. And so, we recognize that all of this over the last several weeks, and maybe for several weeks more, whether or not the tariffs apply or don't apply, will have a profound impact on price.

NK: You know, in the U.S., the Target CEO spoke out this morning about how quickly price increases for, for customers in the U.S. could come. Just in a matter of days, they said, because turnover is so quick in the grocery business, when we're talking about the kind of products you sell. How long before the customers at Vince's Market start to feel this at the checkout?

GT: Days. He is not wrong, it's days. You have to think about the food supply and just how quickly a perishable good item goes and can actually last. And when you're talking about things like fresh produce, often those are, you know, a few weeks. Some produce that lasts through a season, like apples and oranges and, you know, potatoes, those last for longer periods of time. But a lot of us, most of us, are consuming real, highly perishable items. And so, as that inventory turns over, which can occur rapidly, we are constantly receiving new fruits and vegetables into this province in Ontario and across the border daily. And so, as those items cycle in, they will be impacted by the price. So, within days, especially for those shipments that have already been committed to, and that are already traveling towards the final destination at the Ontario Food Terminal, and then ultimately at a store like ours, it will be quickly. There's other items that it's going to trickle, and it'll be a little bit of a longer effect, especially if it's not 100 per cent of the items that is a tariff-eligible item. And we're talking about the counter-tariffs in this sense. And so, it's just, there's, yeah, it's going to move very quickly.

NK: Our producer spoke with another business owner who says she is already getting notices, or has been getting notices from her suppliers.

GT: Yes.

NK: Just even ahead of today about price increases. What kind of conversations or correspondence have you been getting?

GT: Exactly the same. When it comes to the relationship between vendors and retailers, we are working very closely together. And traditionally when it comes to price adjustments, they're often at certain times of the year, and often they come with a notification period where they say, hey, giving you the heads up, this is coming. And usually, it's about 30 days before. We started to receive those letters right before the tariff pause about a month ago, and again within the last week. Again, just a notification to say, hey, giving you a heads up. We'll be discussing and presenting new pricing as these tariffs finalize. And actually, we understand how they're going to impact our, our cost of producing goods. So, in all sectors, we started to receive those letters.

NK: Obviously this is, this is business correspondence. But is there anything else in that correspondence that, that leads you to believe how they're feeling about what's coming? It's just straight up --

NK: You've also got alcohol from the United States on your shelves. And we know you know what, LCBO stores in Ontario, they're pulling the products, other provinces are making similar moves. What are you doing on that front of.

GT: We're, because we're an LCBGO wholesale customer, we are limited by the assortment that we're allowed to purchase from them. So, as of today, from what we've seen on our online order guides, which is where we place our orders, the United States alcohol, which is a product of USA is no longer available to order. So, that's an easy one for us. We can't order. It means we can't sell. We can't bring any new product in. However, we're a small independent grocer, and we have inventory on hand. So, the question we have to ask ourselves is, are we prepared to sit on that inventory, put it away for a rainy day? Or are we going to try and sell through it? And unfortunately, we just can't afford the cost of not trying to sell that product through. There's such little margin in beverage alcohol that if we were to sit on it, it would just be like sitting on cash and putting it away with, with no real hope of turning it into anything. So, we will most likely try to sell off our existing alcohol, and it will be curious to see how long that takes based on customer choice, whether or not they're going to pick up those items or not.

NK: Giancarlo, thank you.

GT: Thanks for having me.

CH: Giancarlo Trimarchi is the president of Vince's Market. He was in Sharon, Ontario.

[cold in to next story. No music]

Tariffs: Anita Anand

Guest: Anita Anand

CH: Now, for more on the response from Ottawa, we reached Minister of Transport and Internal Trade Anita Anand in Toronto.

NK: Minister Anand, we've heard what the prime minister had to say earlier today. What reassurances can you give listeners, Canadian listeners in particular, that Ottawa has their back and will be able to help them get through all of this?

ANITA ANAND: Most definitely. We have launched our retaliatory measures of counter-tariffs, and we will meet and match the 25 per cent tariff, dollar-for-dollar. First, with $30 billion in counter-tariff measures and in aggregate $155 billion. This is going to be a very difficult time, but Canadians should know that the government of Canada is here. We are supporting Canadian businesses, and workers, and the Canadian economy writ large during this very difficult time. At the same time, we are working to eliminate barriers to trade within Canada to add $200 billion to the Canadian economy. And then, thirdly, we need to diversify supply chains overseas. We are the only G7 country that has a free trade agreement with every other G7 country. And we will find those friends overseas so that we have diversified supply chains overall. But rest assured, we are here for Canadians. This is Team Canada. We are united, and we will continue to push back and ensure that Canadians at every stage are protected and supported.

NK: The prime minister also said today that you know, the focus and the goal is to eliminate or end this, this trade war before it goes any further, but that there will be supports and plans for, for people who will be struggling, for businesses who will struggle, people who will lose jobs, and there will be large numbers of people we're hearing who will be severely impacted if this were to drag on. When might we know, Minister, what those supports will be? What they will look like? How they will help?

AA: Yes, precisely. We will have Canadians' back. Today is the first day, and we have just launched these counter-tariffs. We have packages of support for Canadian workers ready to go. I've spoken with Minister MacKinnon, the labour minister, about this package. And rest assured, we are treating this with the seriousness that it deserves. And again, we will be here for Canadian workers.

NK: So, a timeline for that at this stage?

AA: We are still ensuring that the measures that we have heard about are actually coming into place, and we will be prepared at a moment's notice to support Canadian workers if there are those layoffs that we have heard might occur.

NK: Not long before I came in to speak with you, Minister, we're seeing this report on Reuters saying that the U.S. commerce secretary spoke to Fox Business today and said that the U.S. president will reach a middle ground with Canada and Mexico on tariffs, and that an announcement to that effect is expected on Wednesday. Do you know what conversations have happened and what he's talking about there?

AA: Nil, let's be clear that there are differing comments and statements and approaches coming from the white House almost daily. We can only deal with the facts on the ground that we know to be sure. And we know that that executive order came into force after midnight last night, and we responded accordingly. We have our elbows up. Canadians are concerned and angry, but we are going to fight and we are going to win. And we will respond on Wednesday if what you are suggesting does in fact come to pass. But again, this is a moving target, and we have to be ready, steady, and prepared at every moment.

NK: Yeah, that is just this one report, as I said, an early report on, on that issue. But that moving target that you're dealing with, how, how do you manage when this is the adversary?

AA: The crisis in front of us occasions deep patriotism and a desire to protect the country that we all love so much. We are taking this day-by-day and responding in a very steady manner amidst the chaos that confronts us. We will get through this together. We will build a Canadian economy that is not dependent on the United States. We will fight, and we will win. But that requires us to be steady at the wheel.

NK: Will that happen, even if this administration does change course a bit even on tariffs? That, that plan to, to focus on, on Canada?

AA: As the minister of internal trade, I can tell you that creating freer trade and eliminating trade barriers within Canada will occur regardless. We have unanimity around the table within this federation to do better for Canadians within our local jurisdictions to ensure that there is higher productivity, lower prices, and up to $200 billion delivered to the Canadian economy without even going through Donald Trump.

NK: If this administration were to change course, Minister Anand, what do you think is going to be the thing that forces them to do that?

AA: Well, the stock market took a severe hit today, and that reflects the negative impact that 25 per cent tariffs from the white House, and then the trade war that has ensued. I will say that this is negative for the Canadian economy, but it also hits the American economy extremely hard. American families, American businesses, American farmers, and the American economy are taking a hit as a result. And I would say that is the cataclysmic moment for the realization that this is not a good idea.

NK: I appreciate your time, Minister Anand. Thank you.

AA: Thank you so much. Talk soon.

CH: That was Minister of Transport and Internal Trade Anita Anand in Toronto.

[ambient]

Yukon Entomologist Art

Guest: Benoit Godin

CH: Later this week, a new exhibit featuring ornate glass sculptures is opening at the Yukon Arts Centre in Whitehorse. And if you go to see those sculptures with no context, I'm confident you'll have no idea what you're looking at. Unless you're an expert in beetle genitalia. Enter Benoit Godin. We reached him in Whitehorse.

NK: Benoit, what do you think? Is this a first in Yukon, or even outside of Yukon, that there's an exhibit of glass art focused on beetle genitalia?

BENOIT GODIN: Well, as far as I'm concerned, yes, it is the first. I don't know -- well, for one thing -- there are not too many people studying the, the rove beetles and then, you know, making the connection between art and science is, is quite unusual.

NK: Well, we love both of those topics on As It Happens. I can definitely say this is the first time I've had a conversation about beetle genitalia on this program or ever. BG laughs] So, thank you. But just how, how long have you been studying these beetles specifically?

BG: Well, it started serendipitously because we had a project near Dawson about a mine releasing effluent, but they were releasing effluent to a forest. And it turned out that there was a whole bunch of these beetles which were, you know, loving the spraying of water, and ammonia, and all sorts of other things. And they thrive in that environment. So, I went to Forestry and said, well, can we identify these guys? And they said, oh no, don't, don't bother, because they're, they're too difficult. And I thought, well, thats, thats doesn't work biologically. And it was [someone] in Quebec City and he says, well, I'll identify it for you. That's how I got hooked. Because, you know, the identification of these species is based on their genitalia.

NK: And how long ago was this?

BG: That's almost 20 years ago.

NK: But then, at what point do you say, oh, this would make good art, and specifically glass art?

BG: Well, well, it, it was actually [chuckle] Luann Baker-Johnson, who's the owner of the glass factory. She gives all sorts of different courses, and, and I got one and, and start doing that. And one of our employees said, well, okay, what would you like to do? And I said, well, I'll do one spermatica, you know, and then send that to my friends and entomologists. The initial one and say, oh yeah, no, I'm going to end up in my, in my office, or for my Christmas trees, or all sorts of different things like that.

NK: [chuckling] It's one unique ornament, yeah.

BG: It's always in the back of my mind. And since I retired, I thought, well, you know, we should, we should do that. And then, I talked to Luann, and then she's like, oh yeah, let's do that. And at first, I was thinking, well, it's going to be a little bit bigger, like eight inches, 10 inches. And then, Luann is like, oh no, [chuckling] we're going, you know, half a metre. [laughing] And then, because it's bigger, it, it's, it's more technically challenging. And, and, you know, like a lot, many hands are involved in producing those, those kind of things. So, there was quite, quite the, the undertaking.

NK: I'm sure. I'm sure. How accurate are they? I mean, was that important to you, or are they artistic renditions?

BG: They are as accurate as possible. There is limitations with the glass, and what the glass can do, and how it can shape. And then, there was, you know, like, [chuckling] I thought it would be exactly the same. But there is also a whole bunch of different things of communication between the science and the arts. For instance, you know, like there's a whole bunch of different pictures that are taken from a book. And I've seen them so many different times, I visually see them in 3D. But then, she end up with so many question, Luann, so many questions about is it round? Is it this? It's like oh my God! [laughing] I never thought of that. So we, I started to do some, some plasticine models to bring it over first so that we can have more of a discussion on how they're going to be made and so on and so forth. So, we're trying to make it as close as possible to the real thing.

NK: You know, you mentioned you're retired. This is, this is an entirely different kind of retirement hobby. Did you ever imagine that this is what you'd get up to?

BG: Oh, absolutely not! [laughing] No way. [NK chuckles] But, but it's a, it is a kind of nice transition. And the idea is because, you know, like, like they're everywhere. And I'm talking to people and say, well, what do you do? It's like, well, like, they're in the grass. They're in the lawn. They're, they're in, in the forest. They live in the, in, in mushrooms and in mosses. And that's why they're so diverse. They're, they're using so many different microhabitats. So, nobody knows them. So if they see it bigger, maybe they're, they'll be more aware of what's, what's around them.

NK: And is that, is that what you hope people, people take away from it when they see them? Because they're, they're beautiful amber-coloured pieces. They're large, as you said. Is that, is that what you want to, to trigger in people's minds?

BG: Well, in, in, in people's mind, the idea is a sense of discovery. Discovery of their world around. And, and I think Luann has really exploited that particular aspect because all the large renditions are all different.

NK: Is there one that's your favourite? One sculpture?

BG: Safa inexpecdata. [laughter in background and from BG]

NK: Is that Luann laughing behind you?

BG: No, that's my wife.

NK: Why is that one your favourite?

BG: Because that particular bug is about one millimetre big, and it's a new species that we discovered around Whitehorse. And it's very, very small. And it's quite a nice piece.

NK: Benoit, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

BG: You're most welcome.

CH: That's retired Yukon entomologist, Benoit Godin, in Whitehorse.

[uke!]

Part 2: Gaza Aid Blockade, Address to Congress, Tariffs: Point Roberts

Gaza Aid Blockade

Guest: Tania Hary

CH: Today, Arab leaders gathered in Cairo, for an emergency summit on the future of Gaza. But Gaza's present is what humanitarians are most worried about. After a breakdown in ceasefire talks with Hamas over the weekend, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced that he will, quote, "prevent any entry of goods and supplies" into the territory. The country's far-right finance minister Bezalel Smotrich has said electricity and water will be next; while power disruptions are already being reported at two desalination plants in Deir al-Balah. And people are afraid these escalations could be a precursor to the full-blown collapse of the tenuous ceasefire that's been in place since mid-January. Tania Hary is the executive director of the Israeli human rights organization Gisha -- one of five groups petitioning Israel's supreme court for an injunction to stop the new blockade. We reached her in Tel Aviv.

NK: Tania, just personally, how did you react when you heard about this new blockade on aid to Gaza?

TANIA HARY: To tell you the truth, I felt pretty devastated. You know, we had seen several weeks of aid surging into Gaza after more than 15 months of just devastation in the strip. Lack, hunger, famine, maybe in certain parts. And, you know, it was, it was a brief time of relief. Certainly, much, much more was needed. But to go back to where we started just feels really devastating.

NK: Israel says international aid agencies were able to stockpile some supplies during the first phase of the ceasefire, and that that would help mitigate the impact of this new blockade. One of our producers, though, was in touch with the British charity Medical Aid for Palestinians, who is deputy director is in northern Gaza right now. We'll just play a little bit of that.

SOUNDCLIP

MAHMOUD SHALABI: I have started seeing cars queuing for fuel. The prices have been tripled immediately in an instant. And unfortunately, there were no movement of aid trucks anywhere to be seen in Gaza. This news came during the holy month of Ramadan, where people are actually fasting. So, we are all praying that the ceasefire will be implemented as soon as possible.

NK: That's Mahmoud Shalabi with Medical Aid for Palestinians in Gaza City. What are you hearing, Tania, about the humanitarian consequences of this new blockade just two days into it?

TH: So, we're also hearing the immediate effect of prices rising. You know, some basic goods, the price rising two, three times of, of what the cost was. And that's just simply devastating. You know, people don't have jobs. So, we're talking about a place of more than 80 per cent unemployment. People completely dependent on, on handouts, on charity. We're also really concerned, you know, I do think that food stocks in the strip in the next few days might be okay. We might see, you know, fuel starting to run out, though, in, in a matter of days where this could affect hospitals, water systems, pumping of water, you know, baking of bread. I mean, really, really basic things that the population needs. And so, that's our main concern right now. It could get worse. We already heard that last night, the one meager line of electricity that was operating, supplying electricity to two desalination facilities was apparently cut, and that water was supplying the community in the middle area. So, we're talking about an immediate impact, and threats that this could get worse.

NK: Israel, at this point, we should say, is claiming that those two desalination plants are malfunctioning. That is what they're saying at this point. We know your organization is, is one of five, Tania, that are petitioning Israel's Supreme Court for an interim injunction to stop this new blockade. That's part of a broader legal challenge that you filed last year when Israel was restricting aid access to the north specifically. Why do you think the court might intervene now when it has not done that before?

TH: You know, I'm hopeful. I'm not terribly optimistic. The court has now for almost a year been sitting on this petition, in a way baby sitting it. And we've not see them reach a ruling. What we're calling for is this, you know, immediate step that they should take to stop the, you know, blockage of, of aid entering. But we're also calling on them to rule on the petition. One of the important aspects of the petition is that we're talking about Israel's obligations. And without the court's ruling on what Israel's obligations are, there's really no framework. There's no redlines. And so, we think that the court has to play its role in setting the boundaries of what Israel's obligations are under the law.

NK: In announcing this new blockade, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as you may have heard, blamed Hamas. Here's a bit of what he told the media on Sunday.

SOUNDCLIP

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: [speaking: Hebrew].

TRANSLATION: Hamas currently controls all of the supplies and goods that are being sent to the Gaza Strip. It is abusing the Gaza population that is trying to receive the aid. It is shooting at them, and is turning the humanitarian aid into a budget for terrorism directed against us. To this, we will not agree in any way.

NK: What do you say, Tania, to Israelis, and I'm sure you hear from them often, who say Hamas could end this blockade if they were to release the remaining Israeli hostages?

TH: You know, we are calling on Hamas to release the hostages. Then that's the right thing to do. They need to do that without conditions. But Israel also needs to allow in aid without conditions. Those are its obligations under international law. I think that it's the right thing to do. And I know that a lot of the hostage families happen to side with that position. They want this war to end. They want their loved ones home. And we were in a ceasefire agreement. As good or bad as one might think it is, there was a path forward for releasing those hostages. And what we're seeing now is a breakdown of that agreement, and a severe violation of, of international humanitarian law in what amounts to a war crime.

NK: To underline again what your petition to the Supreme Court emphasizes, that denying aid to 2 million people, nearly half of whom are children, constitutes a war crime. That's from your petition. What do you think, Tania, it might take for, for other Israelis who don't agree with you at this point to change their minds?

TH: You know, in Israeli society, there's a real consensus right now that we're the victims, and we're the only victims of, you know, what happened on October 7th and what has happened since with the holding of the hostages. And I really hope that Israelis can open their minds and open their hearts, and see that there are other civilians who are paying a very, very, very deep price. I know that Israelis hearts are hardened to what Palestinians are experiencing. But I think the international community plays an important role here in not normalizing these kinds of acts and saying there are redlines. There are ways to deal with what has happened. There are ways of legitimate self-defence, but this is not one of them.

NK: And seeing each other as human beings, how do you get back to that?

TH: It's going to take a long time, I'm afraid. But I think we have to start somewhere. And, you know, realizing the human cost of these choices is, you know, maybe one step in that direction.

NK: Tania, I thank you for your time. Please take care.

TH: Thank you.

CH: Tania Hary is the executive director of the Israeli human rights organization Gisha. We reached her in Tel Aviv.

[ambient]

Address To Congress

Guest: Nancy Bolan

CH: When President Trump addresses Congress tonight, some of the people in attendance will have their very own first-hand experience with the policies his administration is putting into place. Some Democratic members of Congress and the Senate have invited federal employees whose jobs were cut by the new administration. Nancy Bolan worked for USAID for over 20 years -- until she was fired at the end of January. She'll be attending the address as the guest of Bronx Congressman Ritchie Torres. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

NK: Nancy, why did you say yes to this invitation from your congressman? What message do you hope your presence tonight sends?

NANCY BOLAN: Well, first of all, I want to give a big thanks to my congressman, Ritchie Torres. Because he's really elevating the voices of people like me, and the issues which are of critical importance to federal workers here in the United States. And also, to people. throughout the world. So, I said yes to have this opportunity to raise my voice, and to bring these issues forward that are affecting all of us.

NK: And when you're sitting there, and people hear about your presence, see presence if, if they're watching the television coverage, what do you want them to take away from the fact that you were sitting across from people who have demonized and diminished your work and your colleagues work?

NB: Yeah. Well, I would like them to understand that the narrative that's being peddled by this administration is not the reality. I mean, I've been working overseas since the '80s. And I've been working to address preventable death and disability in mothers and children throughout the world in Latin America, Africa, Asia. So, I've actually seen the reality. And this group of people that have destroyed foreign assistance and the agency that administered the foreign assistance, USAID, they are not aware of what work we were doing, and how important it is, not only for the people that we were serving, but also for people here in the United States.

NK: You know, you've certainly seen the impact, as you were saying, of the work USAID has been doing in, in Congo, but elsewhere, obviously. Elon Musk -- as you know, who wields an incredible amount of power now -- has said that, you know, people aren't going to die, that this isn't going to have an impact, but, but that this agency needs to go. What will happen now that this funding is gone? What do you know is already happening?

NB: Yeah. There was a memo that came out yesterday by someone who was working, still working within USAID, that lays out the very concrete possibilities in terms of increased death and disability for children, for people with tuberculosis, for people affected by malaria, people affected by HIV. And we know that hundreds of thousands of people will die. We can start by looking at just the impact of PEPFAR, which is the HIV Aids program that was always supported by both parties. That was started by George Bush, and is credited with saving 25 million lives. That program, there are currently 20 million people that are dependent on those antiretroviral medications. And those programs have largely halted in the field. We can also look at the case of Somalia, where we were feeding 1 million people per month with grain grown by U.S. farmers, and those programs are now halted. So, the death and destruction will be severe and far-reaching.

NK: What do you say to those, Nancy, and you know, there are those who who support this administration still, who support these cuts. And, and their argument is that the U.S. has a huge deficit. That they believe their, their taxes, the taxes on them are too high, that these are other people's problems, other, the problems of other countries. What do you say to people who make those arguments knowing what you know?

NB: Well, I would say that, first of all, the percentage of the budget that was taken up by this type of work was very small compared to other portions of the budget. But I would also say that there's a very real threat to people here in the United States. We can talk specifically about things like infectious diseases. As we know from COVID, you know, that came to destroy many things in many countries, including economies as well as people's lives and health. That's a very real possibility that that will happen with other diseases. Because now, we've dismantled prevention, we've dismantled surveillance, we've dismantled treatment. So, we can look at any number of emerging infectious diseases that may well make their way to the U.S. population. So we already know that avian flu is on the rise. We know that cases of measles are on the rise. There are other diseases like Mpox. There is dengue, Zika, other diseases that may well make their way here. We could also talk about polio, which was eradicated in the United States in 1979. The world was at 99.9 per cent progress towards eradication. And because we have now stopped the funding for the Global Polio Eradication Initiative, that may well undo, and polio may well make its way back here. So, I think that's one example of consequences that people may not be aware of. I think the other area is our adversaries. Because this type of work was supporting our allies, and especially in fragile states. And now, this will cede space to Russia, to China, to other groups, ISIS, al-Qaida, Boko Haram. And I have seen this on the ground, having worked in places that have been left behind, other people will move in. And so, it's very shortsighted of the administration. And I, you know, I hope that it doesn't come to bite this country, but it may well.

NK: How will you keep your composure, Nancy, as you sit there tonight?

NB: [chuckling] That's a great question. I am not sure. It will be a challenge.

NK: I appreciate your time, Nancy. Please take care.

NB: Okay. Thank you so much. Take care.

CH: Nancy Bolan is a former USAID employee. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

[ambient]

Tariffs: Point Roberts

Guest: Brian Calder

CH: People on both sides of the border are already convinced that the tariffs are going to be very bad for business. But Brian Calder, who lives in Point Roberts, Washington, believes they could be very bad for his community. The town is home to 1,000 people, and sits at the tip of a peninsula that can only be accessed by land by driving through Canada. Mr. Calder has started a petition calling on British Columbia Premier David Eby to grant the community an exemption from reciprocal tariffs. He's a dual U.S.-Canadian citizen and former Vancouver city councillor. And we reached him in Point Roberts.

NK: Brian, you're at home now, but you were just out at the border crossing. What was it like to be there on this day, in this moment?

BRIAN CALDER: Interesting in the sense that it's very quiet, but it's business as usual.

NK: People cross at that border all the time. I remember from the time I, when I was growing up in Vancouver. People would cross the border to get gas, or, or cheaper eggs, you know, when eggs were cheaper at different times, obviously. But you can only get there by driving through Canada.

BC: Absolutely. You have to either come from British Columbia, or through British Columbia if you're coming from the United States, like from Bellingham or Blaine.

NK: So, to say your relationship is important and unique, I think, are understatements in a way. So, Given that, what are you feeling? How are people there feeling? What's it been like crossing during this period of uncertainty?

BC: In some ways, it almost feels like we're locked down again emotionally, like we were physically in the COVID lockdown of March 2020 for 20 months, and isolated. Our economy is devastated. And we've only recovered 70 per cent of the 100 per cent we used to have to this day. And then, to have this hit us on top of that, it's going to be absolutely devastating, and for several reasons. And there's nowhere else in North America that has all of the idiosyncrasies of Point Roberts. And the reason I've been fighting on our behalf and advocating for Point Roberts' special humanitarian treatment is that we get all our potable water from Greater Vancouver, all of it. All of our electricity, lighting, and heating comes from BC Hydro in Greater Vancouver. So, if the Canadian government and provincial government decide to retaliate, they could cut off water and power to Point Roberts, which would absolutely, we'd be out of business.

NK: Have you heard, this is where your petitions come in, and I don't know if you had a chance to hear or see Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's statements. Very direct and tough talk from the prime minister directly to Americans, but also to the U.S. president. Have you received any assurances from provincial officials or federal officials that retaliatory tariffs, like the ones you're worried about, won't hit you?

BC: Well, I wrote Premier Eby 3.5 weeks ago and appealed on behalf of Point Roberts for special treatment. And following that, Mayor George Harvey came from Delta, which is our, it's only five miles from us. And we discussed Point Roberts specifically because the Delta municipality has been more supportive of Point Roberts than our own government has, historically, for the last 100 years.

NK: The U.S. government?

BC: Yeah, than Whatcom County and Washington state has been less supportive of us by far than British Columbia, Metro Vancouver, and Mayor Harvey in Delta. So, he came down, spent two hours with us, and the following Friday, he had a meeting with Premier Eby, and pled our case directly to him. And they listened, he said, attentively. And we're awaiting results from that. And we're hoping, of course, that we're exempted because we don't matter economically in the big picture between Canada and the United States. But we certainly matter to our 1,000 residents here as far as survival by water and power.

NK: What are people telling you, you know, about their concerns and anxiety at this stage?

BC: The emotional system is short circuited in a sense. Because half our people here, including me, are dual citizens. So, we got family on both sides. It creates uncertainty, apprehension, and anger. And so, we're already seeing people look at our license plates and giving people rude gestures with their hands when they go into the drug store over there because we don't have one here. What are you doing here? You got U.S. plates, get the hell out of here, and so forth. So, we tried to soften that by putting Canadian flags on our vehicles. You know, stick-ons. And we've got a bumper sticker out that says "Point Roberts Supports Canada".

NK: Is it helping?

NK: Brian, we will leave it there. I appreciate your time.

BC: Okay. I appreciate you paying attention to us. We need the support.

CH: Brian Calder is a dual U.S.- Canadian citizen and a resident of Point Roberts, Washington. He started a petition to get an exemption from retaliatory tariffs from Canada. We reached him in Point Roberts.

[hip-hop]

Part 3: Tariffs: Kosher Imports, Angie Stone Obit

Premieres On Tariffs

CH: After weeks of throat-clearing -- and some moments of disharmony -- premiers across the country were mostly singing from the same songbook today. Leaders in every province lined up behind the prime minister to say that Canada would stand together to fight back against American tariffs. Ontario Premier Doug Ford agreed with Prime Minister Trudeau's contention that Donald Trump's goal is to force an economic collapse in Canada. And he vowed to fight back.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: Today, I'm writing to every senator, every congressman and woman, and the governors from New York State, Michigan, and Minnesota telling them that these tariffs persist if the Trump administration follows through on any more tariffs, we will immediately apply a 25 per cent surcharge on the electricity we export. We will not hesitate to shut off their power as well.

CH: New Brunswick Premier Susan Holt said that her province would also impose counter-tariffs, albeit with regrets.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSAN HOLT: Our neighbours in Maine are our friends, and we want to put serious consideration into the decisions that might hurt some of the people that have already spoken up against the tariffs that the president has illegally enacted.

CH: Alberta Premier Danielle Smith said she stands behind the federal response, but she won't use the province's oil and gas exports to the United States as leverage. Here's what she said to CNBC.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE SMITH: I've already said that we're not going to, to retaliate on energy. That is such an essential product for American consumers and American businesses. We want to make sure that we've got some, you know, 4.3 million barrels a day going into the United States. We want to make sure that that flow continues, albeit it's going to be a little bit more expensive because of the 10 per cent tariffs. But I would say that we would rather be talking about ways in which we can remove tariffs altogether.

CH: And David Eby said that, like other provinces, British Columbia will no longer let American companies bid on government contracts.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID EBY: Procurement for everything that the government buys, whether it's Crown corporations, health authorities, core government will be buying Canadian first. They'll be prioritizing B.C. products. This is something that we can't do ordinarily because of trade agreements with United States. We have to treat their products like ours when we're purchasing as a government. Otherwise, it's a trade violation. Well, obviously, all bets are off.

[electronic]

Tariffs: Kosher Imports

Guest: Jack Hartstein

CH: Keeping kosher isn't cheap. And in Canada, it's about to get a lot more expensive. The U.S. tariffs that have been placed on all products from Canada and Mexico -- and the retaliatory tariffs imposed by the Canadian government -- could mean steep price hikes...just in time for Passover. Altra Foods is a kosher food importer in Montreal. Jack Hartstein is the vice president of the company. And we reached him in Montreal.

NK: Jack, now that these tariffs are a reality, what do you think they're going to mean for your customers?

JACK HARTSTEIN: Higher prices. Not only our customers, but for anyone that consumes American products that come up here into Canada. Importers will have no choice other than to raise prices.

NK: How many of your products are coming from the United States?

JH: I guess about 3,000 SKUs.

NK: And what kinds of products are we talking about? What kinds of things or would observant families be stocking up for, especially now?

JH: It's a variety. It's all kosher products, basically. Very few with an extremely high standard of kosher supervision are produced in Canada. Therefore, they need to be imported from, and sourced around the world. So, products come from Israel. Products that come from the Philippines or Thailand. We have olives come from Spain. Tomato products come from Italy. So, it's right across the world. But many products are produced in the USA because there is such a huge kosher market.

NK: Why aren't more of them produced here in Canada?

JH: In general, the rule is Canada's 10 per cent of the American market. But when it comes to kosher food, it's more like one in I don't know how many hundreds compared to the U.S. market.

NK: Right.

NK: And what about the retailers you work with? What have they been telling you, and what have they been doing to prepare?

JH: Retailers, they're worried what they can do. So basically, we've assured them that we have enough product for the Passover holiday, which was a major concern, and that we will hold the prices. After Passover, there's really nothing we can promise, or do, or lock in prices because we just don't have those products in our possession yet. So, they'll be coming in later, and they'll just increase in price if this goes on.

NK: So, so, you think people will be okay, generally speaking, for, for this Passover?

JH: Yes. For the most part, we believe Passover will go, will pass by without much notice in price increases.

NK: Well, that'll be a relief, yeah.

JH: But after Passover, my guess is for American products, 50 per cent probably.

NK: Well, the fact that the prices will stay put, at least for, for this Passover, I'm sure will be a relief to, to, to many people. But have you seen consumer behaviour shifting at all with this threat looming? I mean, have people been stocking up or anything like that?

JH: Actually, I just heard one story. Someone came by the border this night and bought personal groceries, and he was hit with a 25 per cent tariff on the groceries.

NK: They were coming from the U.S. into Canada?

JH: Correct. Correct. They drove in 12:30 this night. So, [chuckling] what can people do? How are people going to stock up?

NK: In terms of the increases that, that you're going to be dealing with and your customers are going to be dealing with, can you give an example of a product in particular?

JH: Our single most important product in volume and in dollar-wise that we sell as a company, grape juice from the US, Kedem grape juice. So, a bottle of grape juice at holiday time is always on promotion. It's a loss leader. Stores use it to attract and bring in clients. And they'll put it out for $3.99, even $2.99. Now that the tariffs are in effect, the price every day is going to be close to $15 a bottle.

NK: Fifteen dollars.

JH: But they will not take losses like that, and they will not promote it at all, because what are they going to promote it at? People are used to $3.99. They are going to promote it for $9.99? That's not a bargain anymore, but still cheaper compared to what it's going to be. So, in Passover, a lot of grape juice is used for the Seder and for the holiday meals. So, that means a family of, that will go through literally tens of bottles of grape juice on the holiday. That alone is such a huge increase in cost.

NK: Are you worried, Jack, about your bottom line, ultimately? About your own business if this drags on?

JH: I'm worried for ourselves and I'm worried, I heard our premier said 160,000 jobs in Quebec are going to be lost that they can estimate for right away. I'm thinking that's not 160,000 jobs. Those are 160,000 breadwinners, heads of families. That translates into 500,000 people, probably. I'm worried for everyone. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about ourselves. But I'm also a consumer. I'd be, I'm worried for us as a company. I'm worried for myself and my family as consumers. I'm worried for all of the Canadians that are going to be affected by this. It's just scary.

NK: The organizations that certify items kosher in Canada, we know and others are trying to to get exemptions for kosher foods from this trade war right now. Is that something you would like to see, not just for kosher products, but for halal food or other items that are consumed for, for religious needs?

JH: Of course I'd like to see it, but I have to be a realist. Do I believe it's going to happen? Not really. I am a lot more optimistic about getting an outcome to this whole issue than, than to get an exemption or to think along those lines.

NK: Jack, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

JH: Okay. Thank you.

CH: Jack Hartstein is the vice president of Altra Foods, a kosher food importer based in Montreal.

[hip-hop]

Tariffs: GM

CH: As you've been hearing, and will continue to hear, Donald Trump's tariff war could have devastating consequences for Canada's economy. And Ontario's auto industry is especially at risk. Premier Doug Ford is warning that assembly lines could shut down within 10 days, if the tariffs continue. That means that a lot of people could soon be out of a job. This morning, the CBC's Haydn Watters went to the General Motors plant in Oshawa, to hear how the workers are feeling.

SOUNDCLIP

WORKER: Honestly, it's pretty gloomy out here. A lot of people, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of panic, honestly. Like, a lot of people don't know if the plant's going to stay open or if we're going to close. There's a lot of uncertainty around. You know, hopefully, it works out. Maybe GM can cut a deal and we get to keep our jobs.

HADYN WATTERS: What was the talk on your shift this morning?

WORKER: It's, it's mostly, you know, like the tariffs are coming in today, and it's a, it's a big place. You know, this place has been around here for a long time. And I would really like it to stay open, you know? I've been here my whole life. I'm, like, third-generation GM. So, you know, maybe my kids like to work here one day. But, you know, with the tariffs that might not be possible, right?

HW: If you had President Trump's ear, what would you say?

WORKER: Oh man, it's going to hurt us. It's going to hurt him. And I feel like you're seeing that already. Like, in the States, a lot of people are kind of trying to get Trump's attention and be like, this is not really what we want. But, you know, Trump is Trump, and he's going to do really what he wants to do, right? Gotta stay positive out here.

WORKER #2: Like, there's so much stress at work right now from all the tariffs and everything. And the people that put Trump in place were our neighbours, they were our friends, and they're proving not to be, and they're proving really unreliable. So, I'm angry.

HW: Where do you take that anger at the moment?

WORKER #2: I, I buy Canadian. I make sure that nothing in my household comes from America, even if I have to pay more. I will never travel to America ever again. They're going to be missing out on a lot of money from us because I believe a lot of Canadians are doing the same thing.

HW: Have you thought about what goes on here, or have any indication of what happens for your work coming up?

WORKER #2: Potentially, part shortages or anything like that coming down the line, or like or if, you know, we see the line stopping, we're like, oh no, is this it?

CH: That was CBC Toronto reporter Haydn Watters speaking to General Motors workers in Oshawa this morning during a shift change.

[ambient]

FTR: Butch And Suni

CH: Being trapped in an enclosed space in zero gravity, floating in the abyss, would have me begging to be fired into the sun within about five minutes. But Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams have been stuck in space for months longer than they originally expected -- and they seem to have taken it in stride. When they launched, the NASA astronauts were planning to go to space for eight days. That was in June. Now, it's 272 days later, and they're still not due to come home for a few weeks. Today, from the International Space Station, the pair spoke to reporters, and described the hardest part of being away so long.

SOUNDCLIP

SUNI WILLIAMS: Immediately, It brings to mind family, and all the people on the ground who support us. So, you know, it's, it's been a roller coaster for them, probably a little bit more so than for us. You know, we're here, we have a mission. We're just doing what we do every day. And, you know, we're up in space and it's a lot of fun. So, uncertainty, I think, is probably the most difficult part. And, you know, takes a little time just to have that conversation with them on a daily basis and say, hey, we're coming, we're coming back before long. So, you know, don't make all those plans without me. [chuckling] You know, we'll be back before too long. And I think, you know, what are you going to miss about space? Everything about space. You know, this is just, this has been Butch and my third flight to the International Space Station. We helped put it together. We've been up here seeing it change throughout all these years. Do a lot of science up here. I think just the fact that we're living up here in this very unique place gives you an amazing perspective, not only, you know, out the window, obviously, but also just on how to solve problems. I don't want to lose that, that spark of inspiration.

REPORTER: How is the condition of the International Space Station? How do you find it? There was a suggestion by Elon Musk that it could be de-orbited earlier. Just wondering if you think the, you know, the structural facility can hold up 'till 2030? And, you know, is there six years of meaningful research to be done during that time?

SW: Great question. You know, we've been up here since sort of the beginning. Like I mentioned before, Butch and I had been part of the construction of the space station with the, with the shuttle flights. So, yeah, we've, we've seen it grow from just a couple modules to this amazing laboratory that it is right now. And I would say we're actually in our prime right now. We've got all the power, all of the facilities up and operating. So, I would think that right now is probably not the right time to say quit, call it quits. You know, we've, we have probably 'till 2030 on in our agreements. And I think that's probably really accurate because we should make the most of this space station.

REPORTER: You both have had the opportunity to fly on Soyuz shuttle, Starliner, and now you're preparing to return on Dragon. So wonder, you know, now that you're preparing for your fourth time on a different spacecraft, you know what that preparation work has been like. And you know what, just what that float training has been for you guys these past few months.

BUTCH WILMORE: I'll give the quick answer. It's been fascinating. It's been amazing. We feel so fortunate that, I mean, to train on four different spacecraft, and to have that opportunity has been wonderful.

SW: Yeah, I would agree with Butch. We've been really pretty lucky if you look at it and step back from, you know, in our careers and see what, what interesting things that we've got to do. That's, it's pretty spectacular. So, coming home in the spacecraft will be a new chapter, and excited about it.

CH: For The Record, that was astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams speaking to reporters today from the International Space Station.

[international]

Angie Stone Obit

Guest: Cheryl Cook

CH: Angie Stone did a lot of amazing work behind the scenes in the music industry, as a songwriter. But she always believed she belonged onstage -- and when they saw her there, audiences couldn't have agreed more. The great RnB and soul singer and songwriter died in a car accident over the weekend, on her way back from a performance. She was 63 years old. It's hard to summarize Ms. Stone's career. She wrote songs for luminaries like Prince, Alicia Keys, D'Angelo and many others. She had her own hits, including Wish I Didn't Miss You and No More Rain In This Cloud. And before all that, she was a member of The Sequence, the first all-female group to release a rap record. Cheryl Cook was a member of The Sequence, and a longtime friend of Angie Stone. We reached her in Columbia, South Carolina.

NK: Cheryl, Angie Stone's voice and her music conjures up so much for those who loved to hear her sing. What does it conjure for you now?

CHERYL COOK: I'll always be able to hear her voice. I will always be able to listen to her music. And I always be able to feel her spirit close to me because that's how close we were.

NK: You were friends since childhood. Do you remember the first time you met?

CC: Yes. Yes, her aunt lived next to me. Ms. Sarah lived next door to us. And, and then Angie and my sister became very close, and my baby sister. So, they would be outside playing. I would be inside; I'm the oldest. She was an only child, so she became our fourth sister.

NK: And how did, did that relationship then blossom into the musical relationship, the Collaboration, the pioneering impact you had?

CC: We all went to the same school, high school. That's where we, you know, started developing other talents and stuff. [NK chuckles] Then, we did pageants, the beauty pageants here in South Carolina, 16, 17 years old. And through being cheerleaders, we used to have to write the raps for, you know, not the raps, but the the --

NK: The cheers.

CC: The cheers for school. I still didn't know that she could sing the way that she did until later on.

NK: Oh?!

CC: And so, me and my sister and some other girls, we used to go and do the talent shows and sing the Reasons and, you know, those type of songs back then. I would go to rehearsal with two other girls that I was with. And she says, Cheryl, Where did she say, sure, can I go with you? And I say, yeah. [NK chuckles] So, she would come to the rehearsal, and then it was four. And we would say, okay, well, she's gonna make the fourth person because she could sing, and we didn't work out. And so, me and Angie moved on.

NK: But let me just, let me, let me just ask you, Cheryl. The first time you actually heard Angie Stone saying you've been friends for years, at that point, you know, you could write together, then she opens your house to sing, and what did you think?

CC: We all sound good together. We was really hopping. I mean, if that's what they call it. We were doing our thing back then. [NK laughs] We were writing, we were practicing at my grandma house, and we wrote the raps for our song like two weeks before the Sugarhill Gang came to Columbia.

NK: Yeah, let me just tell our listeners. So, you form with Angie and Gwendolyn an pioneering hip hop group The Sequence.

CC: Yes.

NK: And then, you're at the Sugarhill Gang concert, and you make your way backstage. You made that big break happen, right?

CC: Yeah. And just happened that Harold Myles was the Sugarhill band manager. He came to the door and said, why are you all y'all still standing out here? So he was looking at Angie. He liked Angie. And so, he said, I'm gonna get you in. And she said, oh, no, to get me in, you got to get me and my girls in. Ms. Robinson produced the Sugarhill Gang, and she just happened to be on a roll with them that night. And she said, I'll listen to you. So we did three or four songs, and it didn't quite hit her. And we were getting ready to walk out, and I said, can we do Funk You Up for you? And she said, yeah, come on back in. So, we started singing. We going to funk you right on up. We going to funk you right on up, get up, get up, get up. Sit back down. She says stop. She said, y'all rap it? We say, yes, ma'am. She said, okay, Blondie, let me hear you. And Gwen came in and started doing her thing, and she says, Cheryl, I start doing my thing. And then, she heard Angie. So, after she heard Angie, she called the band to come in. So, she said, okay, let's go. Let's do it again. Somebody had to hear us because we were meant to do this. But it was time for the gang to go, Sugarhill Gang to go on stage. So, we asked her, can we go out there with them? And she said, yeah. So she stayed and watch how we were moving around, you know?

NK: Well, how did they react? That's bold. To say that your bold is an understatement, Cheryl. How did they react?

CC: Half of our school was there, so they was able to see us on stage with the Sugarhill Gang, which is the hottest rap record out now. And so, when we came off the stage, she said, I'm going to make you girls stars. She said, I'm going to send you all airline tickets Friday. Y'all talk to your parents and see if y'all can come.

NK: Angie was just 17, right? So, she'd have to get out of 17.

CC: Yeah, she was just 17.

NK: And did she have any trouble? Did Angie's family, were they okay with it?

CC: Well, what happened is Gwen and I had to help convince Angie to convince some parents. We went and we told her that they sent the tickets. They want us to come and cut the record. But they saw the sadness in her face. Please, Mama, let me go. They said, well, we're going to let her go, Cheryl. But you're going to have to look out for her, you and Gwen. And we said we got each other. So, we got on the plane and headed to the studio.

NK: You know, Angie Stone was performing before this accident. She had posted recently on Instagram that she had things coming up, and a big smile on her face. When was the last time you spoke?

CC: I talked to her Friday. I talked to her about three times last week. She was calling me because we were working on 2025, putting The Sequence tour together. And she told me --

NK: You were going to go back on the road together?

CC: Yeah, we were going to go back. She was telling me about two weeks ago to go ahead and push this last song we did call What's Up? And she said, okay, I'm gonna call you back. I said, okay, and that's the last time I talked to her. But she's always happy. I think she's the only person I know can sleep for like three hours, and jump up, and just go.

NK: At 63 years old?

CC: Where do you get the energy at 63?!

NK: For her fans, that might answer, you know, in terms of longevity and reach, you know, going from Sequence then in the '90s when, you know, I came to know her work, which is songwriter for, you know, Erica Badu, Mary J. Blige, Jill Jones, Lenny Kravitz. And that's just a partial list. She didn't like being behind the scenes at a certain point. And then, you know, she breaks out on her own.

CC: Yeah, she was with a group called Vertical Hole, but she was constantly doing background stuff with different artists, Lenny Kravitz and different ones.

NK: What do you think set her apart and allowed her to, to finally push through and move out of the background? You know, the hits that our listeners have heard of, likely, I Wish I Didn't Miss You, No More Rain in this Cloud, but others as well. What allowed her to push through and become the star?

CC: As she continued to grow and learn from other people in the business, and all of that. She knew she could always do it. Because if you go back and listen to The Sequence, those songs, the ballads that we did, Angie always had it. So we pushed her because we were able to take care of her kids and let her, allow her to go and do what she know that she could do better than anybody, you know?

NK: How are you doing, Cheryl? You've lost something so important.

CC: I'm just still shocked. You know, it don't seem real because only thing she says, she says I'm gonna call you back, and never got the chance to do that.

NK: Well, Cheryl. I'm so grateful for your time and for you sharing so many memories, and the music. Thank you. My condolences.

CC: I can talk about her forever because we've made so many wonderful memories. You're very welcome. Very welcome.

CH: That was Cheryl Cook, a lifelong friend of Angie Stone, and a fellow member of the pioneering all-female hip hop group The Sequence. We reached her in Columbia, South Carolina. Angie Stone died in a car accident on the weekend. She was 63.

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