Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The AIH transcript for March 03, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: The predictable unpredictability. The U.S. president says he will definitely impose tariffs on Canada tomorrow, and there's no changing his mind -- unless, of course, he changes his mind.

CH: Fever pitch. Measles was eliminated in Ontario. Now it's returned -- and with cases on the rise, and a child's death in Texas, our guest reminds us to get our vaccines -- because an infection can have potentially serious consequences.

NK: Canadian Pie. You can spell pizza without U.S.; the owner of a Toronto pizzeria tells us it was a no-brainer to slice all American ingredients from his slices.

CH: Ooze you can use. A researcher tells us the key to protecting our cognitive function as we age may be all in our heads -- and it's brain slime.

NK: The gull next door. Researchers in B.C. ask for the public's help monitoring seagulls; a scientist tells us he's shocked by how eager people are to help, given our love-hate -- and for some mostly hate -- relationship with those birds.

CH: And...it does mean a thing if it ain't got a swing. Japan celebrates a new record for world's smallest park -- but it doesn't celebrate in that park, because there's…there’s no room.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that's surprised they haven't lost the plot.

Part 1: Tariff Uncertainty, Toronto Pizzeria, Anti-Aging Brain Slime

Tariff Uncertainty

Guest: Dan Kelly

CH: The clock is ticking -- again. The latest deadline for U.S. tariffs on Canada is tomorrow. The date, of course, has moved multiple times. And the message about what those tariffs will look like keeps changing too. Only U.S. President Donald Trump knows exactly what he'll do. And, so far, he's saying they're coming for sure this time. Here he is answering a reporter's question this afternoon.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: On the tariffs, is there any room left for Canada and Mexico to make a deal before midnight? And should we expect those Chinese tariffs, the extra 10 per cent, to take effect?

DONALD TRUMP: No room left for Mexico or for Canada. No, the tariffs, you know, they're all set. They go into effect tomorrow.

CH: Canada's foreign affairs minister, Melanie Joly, reacted by saying the country is prepared with counter tariffs.

SOUNDCLIP

MELANIE JOLY: This is an existential threat to us. And there are thousands of jobs in Canada at stake. Now, we've done the work. We are ready should the U.S. decide to launch their, their trade war.

CH: The only thing that's certain is uncertainty. Which, of course, comes with its own cost. Dan Kelly is the president of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Dan, do you believe what the U.S. president is saying now, that there's no room left?

DAN KELLY: Gosh, you know, the one thing we know for sure is that there can be 10 more twists and turns by the hour with, with President Trump. And so, I wouldn't be shocked if, if there was perhaps another one before things go into effect. But yeah, this looks pretty worrisome. And as the minister said, would broadside the Canadian economy in a huge, huge way.

NK: So, is rattled the right word to describe how you're feeling in this moment, knowing what you know right now?

DK: Yeah, look, I think the, the word is ongoing uncertainty. Even if tariffs go ahead, even if a big across the board tariff happens tomorrow, I suspect that that's not the end of this. There could be climb-downs or climb-ups from that as he's talking about additional tariffs for all sorts of other reasons. So gosh, it is anyone's guess as to where this is going. What I do know though is that if, if these tariffs go into effect, a big across-the-board tariff on Canadian goods, it will have a massive negative impact on Canada's economy almost instantly. And, of course, then our retaliatory tariffs that, that, of course, would go into effect as, as one expects, they would have an even bigger impact on small businesses and consumers as U.S. goods then become much, much more expensive for all of us.

NK: This has been the worry all along. And the uncertainty you talk about as, as the business owners you represent and you speak with ride those waves of uncertainty and brace for what may still come, what are they telling you about the impact already?

DK: Oh gosh, this this is super important because the impact is already been there. Many businesses have told us that they are having to make changes in real time, just with the threat of tariffs, not even with the tariffs in effect yet. Many businesses have put off growth and expansion in their business because they're just not sure on which side of the border to do that. Some have been obviously stockpiling goods, looking at alternative markets. But there's no avoiding this. This will, you know, most firms will need much, much longer to pivot than the couple of months that we've had so far on this issue.

NK: Which kinds of businesses, which sectors are you most concerned about at this stage?

DK: Look, the obvious examples are Canada's major exporters in auto and the forestry industry, agricultural products, the energy products. We know what those impacts will be as Canadian goods in U.S. markets become more expensive. But what worries me just as deeply, and for small businesses in many ways more deeply, is the fact that Canada's first round of retaliatory tariffs would cut pretty deep, and would affect a whole bunch of goods that small businesses use and consumers use on a daily basis. Making those U.S. goods more expensive on Canadian shells is going to hurt deeply. I mean, of course, you know, we know that retaliatory tariffs are like taking chemotherapy. It's, it's poison that you take yourself in order to fight a larger battle. And while Canadian businesses are prepared and behind their governments to, to try to make sure that we do significant tariffs to push back, it's going to hurt.

NK: So, what kind of advice are you giving those smaller independent businesses to cope?

DK: Well, look, they, they first of all need to make sure that, that they are taking as many steps as they can to pivot as quickly as they possibly can. And many have begun that journey already. Beyond that, of course, we will, as, as I think politicians will, look to focus on what kinds of economic supports the country needs to get through this. I am pleased to see that there seems to be unanimity on the part of, of all of Canada's federal political parties that supports, major supports will be needed almost instantly by Canadians and Canadian businesses to try to ride this out. I'm also encouraged to see the buy Canada movement and progress on interprovincial trade. But, look, the uncertainty is a real killer here. Having at least a sense of what's going to happen next may in some ways be helpful to rip the band-aid off. And at least get, if we're going to have to go to a tariff war, let's begin to get it over with.

NK: We've also heard, you know, the questions of whether some businesses will, will move their operations to, to the United States. You know, we've spoken to some who have said no, they're staying put and that's their plan. But, but if more and more businesses decided that they had to do that, what would that mean for the landscape?

DK: Oh gosh, the impact of Canadian businesses shutting down shop and operating across the border would be significant. We can't afford to lose more Canadian companies. We've already lost a great number of them. And, of course, tariffs are not the only consideration in that mix. We need to make sure that we are improving our overall competitiveness to keep small and medium-sized firms, larger, larger companies, too. But what worries me is that a lot of businesses would reach often the unfortunate decision that if they serve the U.S. market in a big way, that they may need to be on the other side of that tariff wall. That might not mean closing down in Canada, but, but it might mean that they need to put in place an operation in the U.S. and do their growth and expansion in the U.S. market. That doesn't serve Canadian business well. And let's hope if the tariffs do come to be that they are in place short-term as, as a result of pushback from Americans on the U.S. president's actions.

NK: And their decisions that are coming just in the first couple of months of this new administration. How do you brace, Dan, for the rest of this, this term, the next couple years?

DK: Look, I think all of us are going to need to sleep with one eye open. [chuckle] Because even if there is action on tariffs that, that starts tomorrow, we are in for a while of uncertainty. We're likely to have four straight years of uncertainty as to whether tariffs will come off. And one expects that there will be twists and turns where tariffs may be applied, then removed, then applied again, or at least threatened. None of that is good for business. Businesses want certainty, and it looks like we're not going to have any for, for another four years.

NK: Thanks for this, Dan.

DK: Any time.

CH: Dan Kelly is the president of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. He’s in Toronto.

[lounge jazz]

Toronto Pizzeria

Guest: Graham Palmateer

CH: When it comes to pizza, people are pretty particular about the toppings they like -- and the ones they don't. Some of us here at As It Happens like some nice pineapple on their pizza. And some are very angry at those people. And, just for one example, at one Icelandic pizzeria, customers enjoy their pizza topped with a sheep's head boiled in stout beer. But for Graham Palmateer -- it's not so much what's on the pizza right now, as it is what isn't. Mr. Palmateer is the owner and chef at Gram's Pizza in Toronto's west end. In reaction to the trade war with the U.S. and the threat of tariffs -- which, as we mentioned, are set to go into effect tomorrow -- Mr. Palmateer has eliminated all American ingredients from his restaurant. We reached him at his pizzeria in Toronto.

NK: Graham, what is on your favourite Graham's Pizza?

GRAHAM PALMATEER: I'm simple. I like, I like simple pizzas. So, I think I usually just go with the classic pepperoni.

NK: Yeah. It, does that get harder to make your classic pepperoni given what you've decided to do without American ingredients?

GP: Not really. I was occasionally sourcing U.S. pepperonis. There's a very famous brand of pepperonis that a lot of restaurants really love that are produced in the United States, but I also have been sourcing local products that I like very much. And I've actually taken the opportunity recently to discover more brands. And my favourite brand currently is actually produced in Quebec. So, I'm happy to buy Canadian rather than American.

NK: What was the moment you decided to do that? You thought, I, you know, I'm going to fully boycott U.S. ingredients.

GP: There wasn't a specific moment. I've been, I've been thinking about moving away from U.S. products in the wake of the election. And, you know, as, as rhetoric about tariffs, and annexation, and all that nonsense ramped up. And, at one point, just decided, you know, that, that's it. I'd like to make the switch away from American products right now. So, I let my customers know that my fridges would look a little different, and my, my pantry shelf might look a little different. But everybody's been really, really supportive of the, the switch. And it's been, it's been very easy actually.

NK: Well, yeah. Let me ask you more about that. First of all, how different are your pantry shelves and your fridges looking? What, what did you take away.

GP: Yeah. So, the big, biggest change was tomatoes. One of my favorite tomato companies is out of California called Stanislaus. So, I was using them. I was actually blending tomatoes with California tomatoes with Italian tomatoes, but I've since just switched to all Italian tomatoes. And in terms of pop and soda, I've cut out all, you know, American sodas like Coke and, and all those associated brands. So, right now, my fridges are stocked exclusively with, you know, beverages from Canadian companies. Those are the big ones, yeah.

NK: Are there any products that you've had trouble sourcing Canadian alternatives to?

GP: Like a diet soda, I haven't quite found a replacement yet. People love their Coke Zero and their Diet Coke.

NK: [chuckle] Yeah.

GP: I mean, I'm not a health food store anyway. [both chuckle] So, I'm not exactly serving the healthiest food, but it would be great if I could find, like, a sugar-free or a low-sugar Canadian cola. I haven't, haven't sourced one yet. That's, I think, the biggest omission, glaring omission.

NK: Right. Has it affected your operating costs? Because a lot of the argument, even if people wanted to, to buy all Canadian, or source all Canadian, other, other distributors, other providers, other countries offered cheaper alternatives, and that's why people went with them. So, what has it meant for your bottom line?

GP: It hasn't really affected my bottom line. Although I might be a peculiar case in that regard.

NK: It's a small operation.

GP: Yeah, we're a very small operation. And, I mean, I'm pretty tight with my food costs regardless. I think my, my mushroom costs have gone up a little because I've dropped Costco as a supplier because they're an American company. I realize they're, you know, considered one of the good egg companies, but I wanted to move away from all American companies. And, as such, I've been still buying Canadian mushrooms. But they come from a different supplier who charges more because it's hard to beat Costco's buying power as a, you know, as a large company. But I haven't really, I haven't had to raise my prices at all. And actually, with, with some of the beverages, I've actually lowered the prices because I've, I've cut out a middleman, and I'm now buying directly from manufacturer. So, in some respects, prices have actually gone down. But again, it's, it's sort of like a wait-and-see thing. I'm, I'm expecting some prices to go up at some point. But, you know, I'm just the pizza maker not an economist. [NK chuckles] So, we'll see what happens.

NK: Yeah. We'll see what happens is, is a phrase everyone is saying, including economists at this point, I think. So, you're not, you're not far off there. Ultimately, what do you hope other, other Canadians, other businesses might be able to take away from what you're doing? Your circumstance is unique, is unique, as, as you acknowledge. But what do you hope people take away from it?

GP: I would hope that we as Canadians sort of look to each other to source products more than looking to our neighbours. We're, we're producing a lot of great products in this country. You know, of course, winter affects, you know, our ability to produce many things. But, if, if me getting press because of this, this switch encourages others to look locally for, for great products, and then that's a good step in. And I think that's a step in the right direction.

NK: Has it affected the taste, the changes you've made?

GP: No, not really. The California tomatoes I, I was buying, I've, I've found an essentially identical brand from, from Italy. So, you wouldn't notice a difference in all. There's no, no compromise in quality, really. It's just changing the national origin of the product. You know, there's plenty of, plenty of countries that grow good tomatoes. And so, there's, there's no necessity to buy it from the United States.

NK: Is this a permanent switch in your mind, or just riding out the current political situation?

GP: Yeah, it's permanent. You know, permanent with an asterisk, I guess. So, as long as I'll be doing this, I'll be avoiding American products for this, for the foreseeable future, until our friends from the south make some more responsible electoral decisions. That's the way I'd put it. But yeah, it's a permanent decision.

NK: Graham, thank you.

GP: Thank you.

CH: Graham Palmateer is the owner of Gram's Pizza. And we reached him in Toronto.

[percussive]

Anti-Aging Brain Slime

Guest: Sophia Shi

CH: Up there in our craniums, it's all systems goo. Mucins may hold the key to protecting our brains from the harmful effects of aging. They're these sugary proteins that link together to form a gel-like coating, and line the blood vessels in the brain. And they're really slimy. In a new study of mice, researchers at Stanford University have shown that this brain slime deteriorates over time. But they were able to restore it in the mice by using gene therapy -- which appeared to reduce inflammation and improve memory. Sophia Shi is a graduate fellow at Stanford -- and one of the authors of the study. We reached her in Stanford, California.

NK: Sophia, when you were growing up, was this what you dreamed of, specifically studying brain slime?

SOPHIA SHI: No, I don't know if anyone ever dreams of studying brain slime when they're growing up. No, I really did always love science, though, and the idea of discovery. And so, I think this brain slime that we're studying is really sort of a new area for understanding brain aging and neurodegeneration. And so, I'm really excited to be able to study brain slime.

NK: What interested you, you know, as you got further in your career and your education, what was it that made you think this is what I need to be focusing on?

SS: So, I think, you know, there are a lot of long-standing questions in brain aging and neurodegeneration. And people are taking certain routes to be able to understand sort of how these really important diseases are occurring. But no one is really looking at these sugars, known as mucins. And I think for me, I wanted to look where other people weren't looking because I felt like, you know, people have been studying these, you know, Alzheimer's disease, for example, for such a long time. And we haven't had disease-modifying treatments. And it felt like we were missing something. And so, these sugars are actually everywhere. And they're coating all of our cells, for example. And all of our proteins. And people weren't paying attention to them when I started studying aging. And so, yeah, I was just really curious about, you know, what they're doing and how they might be contributing to these processes.

NK: And how do they help protect our brains?

SS: Yeah. So, sugars play a lot of different roles in the brain. And most of these functions are not well understood. Mucins themselves, they're these large proteins that are coated by chains of carbohydrates and sugars. And, you know, while they're commonly studied in our gut and respiratory tracts, where they make up a major component of mucus, which is where the name mucin sort of comes from, they're actually found in many different tissues, including on the brain vasculature, which is where we, of course, focused our study. And on the vasculature, they seem to be playing this really crucial role for supporting brain integrity, our brain vascular integrity. And we find that they play a role as this sort of mucin barrier in the gut. But they also seem to play an important role in sort of forming this barrier at the vasculature, which is important for regulating what gets into the brain and preventing sort of toxic inflammatory molecules from, from getting in.

NK: And you looked at mice, you looked at young mice, you looked at older mice. What did your research reveal about what the mucins in those younger mice look like compared to in the older mice?

SS: Yeah. So, we found that in young, healthy mice, we have this very strong, lush mucin layer. Whereas in aged mice, this layer is severely reduced and becomes more, like, patchy. And this sort of indicates that our barrier may have been sort of compromised.

NK: So, how did you and your, your colleagues go about restoring the protective barrier in the older mice?

SS: We used a gene therapy approach in our study, which involves introducing new genetic material into a mouse's brain cells. And in aged mice, we delivered these genes that are lacking in aged and Alzheimer's disease brains which build these sugar structures back up and enhance this barrier. And we found that the effects were really strong. So, not only did this treatment improve the integrity of the brain vasculature, but we found reductions in the inflammation in the brain, and also improvements in cognitive function. So, learning and memory in these mice. And so, it's just really crazy to see such strong effects on the brain, in brain health and function from just changing these sugar molecules, which I think is really powerful for how we will in the future understand and treat neurodegenerative diseases.

NK: Well, that's, you know, these, these diseases impact so many people, and in such difficult and critical ways, as we know. And that's part of what got you thinking along these lines in this new field of, of research. So, you know, it's easy for people to, to get excited and want to jump, jump ahead. What ultimately do you think your research could mean in terms of tackling those diseases in humans?

SS: Yeah. So, what's nice about the study is though, although we did a lot of our experiments in mice, we did have some human tissues, including human Alzheimer's disease tissues. We also looked at Huntington's disease. And we also found that we see similar patterns in these human disease brains. So, in both Alzheimer's disease and in Huntington's disease, we see a decline in mucin structures on the brain vasculature. And so, it seems like these findings are relevant and applicable in these human diseases. And so, we are definitely now trying to apply these same treatments to disease models to better understand the benefits of these mucin-building treatments, and see if they could actually heal any of these disease-specific pathologies and improve symptoms. And so, long-term, we're hoping, you know, this stuff is going to be translated, whether it's, you know, these treatments themselves, or as we better understand the biology of how these treatments work, we may identify new targets that we can target with, with new therapeutics for these different CNS diseases.

NK: You didn't dream about brain slime in particular as a child, as you said at the outset of our conversation. Did you imagine or hope that not only you would, you would be able to do research like this, but, but as we said, open up a new field of study, something that hadn't been looked at before. How does that feel?

SS: Yeah. It's, yeah, it's, it's super meaningful, actually. I just remember, you know, I've always been a really curious kid in, especially in my biology classes, chemistry classes. And I think I always remember in my biology classes just, you know, learning new topics and things, and just wondering how did they discover that? Like, how did they discover DNA and all of these other things? And it's really cool now to be here, you know, making some of these discoveries. And yeah, I'm actually starting my own lab now, which is super exciting, focused on this intersection between sugars and brain science. So, understanding sort of how these sugar molecules like Mucins regulate the brain, brain function, and disease. And it's really cool to be here and, hopefully, you know, making discoveries that will be part of textbooks one, one day that other students will learn from. And, you know, wonder, you know, how did they figure that out? So, I'm really excited. It's, it's really meaningful, honestly, to, to be here making these discoveries and then also starting my own lab focused on this field.

NK: Sophia thanks for this.

SS: Yeah, thank you so much.

CH: Sophia Shi is a Stanford University Bio-X graduate fellow. She’s in Stanford, California.

[brisk instrumental]

Smallest Park

CH: That's basically what it sounds like when you're in a park in Nagaizumi, Japan. Which is on a street corner. It's not a place where you lose yourself -- it's more of a place you lose. In the sense that it's very small. Like, for example, picture a parkette. Okay, it's smaller than that. It's more of a parkette-ette...ette. Like, you know how one of the defining features of a park is that it occupies space? That almost doesn't apply to this park at all. Guinness has just certified it as the smallest park in the world. It is 0.24 square metres -- or 2.5 square feet -- in area. That's smaller than, say, a Monopoly board. And if you're wondering what makes it a park, well, it has a few plants, at the base of a "bench" that is a square of wood that appears to be smaller than the average human rump. One person can sit on it and be in the park, if they tuck their feet in. And if you're still wondering what makes it a park, well, that makes two of us. Guinness defines a park in this case as "a public garden or area of land used for recreation." It does not define "recreation", but unless it means "trying not to fall off a tiny square wooden seat", I'm not sure it applies here. Still, congratulations to Nagaizumi. This is grounds for celebration. Although I'm not sure there are grounds for saying the park has grounds.

[hip-hop]

Part 2: Measles Cases, Surrey Seagull Surveys

Measles Cases

Guest: Sarah Wilson

CH: In 1998, Canada eliminated measles. Today, Ontario is facing its largest outbreak since then. Last week, provincial public health officials reported that there had been 78 new cases in two weeks. And concerns around the disease are not isolated to Ontario. Officials in other parts of Canada and the U.S. are also warning about infection and immunization rates. Dr. Sarah Wilson is a public health physician with Public Health Ontario. We reached her in Toronto.

NK: Dr. Wilson, I wonder what it's been like for you as a physician to see these case numbers rise?

SARAH WILSON: It's really been something. I've had the opportunity to work in my role in supporting local public health units with measles investigations over, over my career. And, you know, prior to the fall of 2024, you know, that would look like maybe 10 or 15 cases over the span of a year. It's really quite something now to be supporting public health units, and working together, and seeing, you know, very, very large numbers of cases and seeing how quickly they're accumulating. It's been, actually, a little bit startling to see how quickly the cases are increasing.

NK: I think it's startling for a lot of people to, to hear about it, too, and read the headlines. Between 2013 and 2023, there were 101 confirmed cases of measles reported in Ontario. Since this outbreak began in October of 2024, just a few months ago, there have been 177 cases. What is causing this spike?

SW: Well, maybe I'll answer that by reflecting on what used to happen with when I described earlier, you know, maybe 10, 15, 20 cases max over, over an entire year. And in those years, you know, there would be the occasional what we would describe as an importation. Someone who was infected, traveling abroad, returned home, was diagnosed in Ontario or other parts of Canada. And then, you know, fortunately, typically those cases did not have onward transmission. Or if they did transmit to another individual, maybe it would be to one person in their household. But most of those cases didn't result in onward transmission. And then, now when we reflect on, you know, what's been happening since the fall of 2024 in Ontario, it started in a similar way. We had individuals who were exposed to a travel-acquired case of measles. But when they returned back to Ontario, there was, you know, transmission first in households and then in other, you know, community members. And then, flash forward to just a couple of months. We now see that there are multiple chains of transmission with, you know, many, many cases accumulating. And when we look at the cases, they're almost exclusively in unvaccinated people, not entirely, but among our children and adolescent cases, almost all of them are fully unvaccinated. And that's a, I think, a strong indication that measles has found its way into pockets and communities where there's under immunization. And as a result, it's been really able to take off and generate multiple, multiple cases. We know measles is so infectious.

NK: Is it a matter of people being forgetful, or do you think it's, it's vaccine hesitancy. Can you, can you ascertain that at this point?

SW: I think it's hard to, to point to one single reason. I think, I think this is one of the things with vaccination, there's, there's so many different aspects to consider. There is access to immunization services. There's people's perceptions about the safety of vaccines, which we sometimes describe as vaccine confidence. I think there's a number of different considerations. So, I'm reluctant to point to one single cause.

NK: Who among us should be double checking our vaccination record? Should we all be doing this right now?

SW: So, I think we should always make sure that our measles vaccinations are up to date. And these measles outbreaks are just a reminder to us about the incredible importance and the reason why we should all be keeping our measles vaccines up to date. So, I think for individuals who live in the outbreak affected communities, the local medical officers of health have already communicated about vaccine recommendations. For those outbreak areas, there are additional recommendations, moving up the timing of the second dose, ensuring all adults born after 1970 received two doses, and also a suggestion for babies under the age of one, as long as they're six months of age and older, to be vaccinated. So, those are some additional recommendations that are being made in the areas where there are active cases associated with the outbreak. I guess also, like, to make the the connection with upcoming March break, many people will be traveling, and traveling to parts of the world where measles is actively circulating. And so, it's very, very important for those people also to make sure that their vaccines are up to date. And that also includes early doses. So, making sure that young children, even if their provincial schedule gives MMR at, or MMRV at the, at the fourth birthday, making sure that, that second dose is given a bit early and in time to be on board and offering protection before travel.

NK: And what do you want our listeners to know about how serious, how contagious measles can be?

SW: So, measles is the most infectious virus that we know of. If you have a group of entirely susceptible people, so people have never been vaccinated, never exposed to measles, and if you introduce a person who is infectious measles, they can transmit that infection to in the range of 16 to 18 people. So, it's incredibly infectious. It's also challenging because people are infectious with measles before the onset of rash. So, some people, you know, they might start to feel unwell with some fever and some sort of cold type symptoms and, you know, cough or runny nose. And they can be exposing individuals with measles before they even know that what they're experiencing is, is the measles infection. And then the other thing is just how important measles is in terms of a virus we really want to prevent. And this is why measles vaccine was invented. It's not just because it's infectious, but because it has so many important complications. It's, you know, it's associated with complications such as pneumonia. It can cause brain swelling, or sometimes that's called encephalitis. And it can also cause complications in pregnancy, such as, you know, early labour and, and so forth. So, this is, you know, something that is not a benign rite of passage in childhood. It's not just a disease that is in textbooks. I mean, this is a really important vaccine-preventable disease. We have the tools to prevent we have the tools to prevent it. And it's important that people know that MMR vaccine is very safe, it's very effective, and it protects individuals as well as communities.

NK: Dr. Wilson, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SW: Thank you.

CH: Dr. Sarah Wilson is with Public Health Ontario. She's in Toronto.

[post rock]

FOA: ‘The Only Girl in the Orchestra’ Win

CH: The films nominated for Best Documentary Short at last night's Academy Awards covered a range of seriously somber subject matter, from capital punishment to school shootings. But in the end, a slightly lighter film came out on top.

SOUNDCLIP

SELENA GOMEZ: The Only Girl in the Orchestra, Molly O'Brien and Lisa Remington.

MOLLY O'BRIEN: Oh wow! Thank you to the Academy. It is such an honour to be here. As Orin O'Brien, the star of The Only Girl in the Orchestra, likes to say, music helps us organize our emotions. And there are a lot of emotions that need organizing these days. Film does the same thing. I'm honoured and privileged to be in a room with all the people, all these people who, who understand that art is giving meaning to the chaos we're living through right now.

CH: Molly O'Brien accepting the Academy Award for Best Documentary Short for her movie, The Only Girl in the Orchestra last night. The film is Molly's portrait of her aunt, Orin O'Brien -- a celebrated double bassist who became the only female member of the New York Philharmonic when she joined back in 1966. Last month, Orin and Molly joined Nil on As It Happens, to talk about the documentary -- and about Orin's early years with the orchestra, when press coverage marveled at her gender more than her skill.

SOUNDCLIP

ORIN O'BRIEN: Well, I was very kind of I was upset, although I didn't show it, naturally. I was very quietly professional. I was very upset they never mentioned my 10 years of experience. New York City Ballet, where I worked for 10 years, had Balanchine as the choreographer, and Stravinsky was sort of the house composer. He was writing new music for us all that time. And I also played a lot of recordings. I played five years at the Metropolitan Opera when it used to be downtown on 40th Street. Nobody ever mentioned any of that. Just, oh, I was a girl. And you know the nonsense about guys carrying my suitcase. Nobody carried anybody's suitcase on the tour. You had travel trunks that you were divided into four parts, and you each had one-quarter of a travel trunk to put your stuff in. You know, all the nonsense on looks and being female, to me, avoided the, my main qualification, which was professional experience for 10 years. And being trained by a member of the Philharmonic bass section, who was there since the Toscanini years, playing for 36 years in the New York Philharmonic. That was never mentioned. And that's the reason that I became a very good bass player is because of my teacher. Most of the members of the Philharmonic studied with a member of the Philharmonic, so they understood the style and the traditions.

NK: You don't come out of nowhere. [chuckling].

OO: You don't come out of zero, you know? You don't make it up on your own. It's something that you have to be trained into, and you have to be aware of the differences and the stylistic qualities that you need to have, and, and the power and also the, the stamina to play four rehearsals and four concerts and more every week without flinching, doing your job, supporting the other people in your section and in the orchestra. And you do it together as a, as a group, 100 people, all thinking and breathing alike. It's quite extraordinary.

CH: Orin O'Brien, speaking with Nil last month about her early days in the New York Philharmonic. Her niece Molly O'Brien's documentary, The Only Girl in the Orchestra, tells the story of that remarkable career. And last night, it won an Oscar.

[hip-hop]

‘No Other Land’ Oscar

CH: A Palestinian filmmaker's story about the fight for his land is also now an Oscar winner. Last night, No Other Land won best documentary feature at the 97th Academy Awards. It focuses on Basel Adra -- a Palestinian journalist and filmmaker -- and his home, Masafer Yatta in the Occupied West Bank. It’s been under an evacuation and demolition order by the Israeli government since 1981. The military has designated it a firing zone. It's home to hundreds of Palestinians who are under immediate threat of forced displacement. In No Other Land, Mr. Adra and Israeli journalist Yuval Abraham capture the destruction of Massafer Yatta by Israeli soldiers -- and the determination of Palestinians like Mr. Adra's own family to remain. Here is Basel Adra, after winning the Oscar.

SOUNDCLIP

BASEL ADRA: About two months ago, I became a father, and my hope to my daughter that she will not have to live the same life I'm living now, always fearing. [clapping and cheering] Always, always fearing settlers' violence, home demolitions, and forced displacements that my community, Masafer Yatta, is living and facing every day under the Israeli occupation. No Other Land reflect the harsh reality that we have been enduring for decades, and still resist, as we call on the world, to take serious actions to stop the injustice, and to stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people. [clapping and cheering].

YUVAL ABRAHAM: We, we made this, we made this film, Palestinians and Israelis. Because together, our voices are stronger. We, we, we see each other. The atrocious destruction of Gaza and its people, which must end, the Israeli hostages brutally taken in the crime of October 7th, which must be freed. When I look at Basil, I see my brother. But we are unequal. We live in a regime where I am free under civilian law, and Basil is under military laws that destroy his life, and he cannot control. There is a different path, a political solution, without ethnic supremacy, with national rights for both of our people. And I have to say, as I am here, the foreign policy in this country is helping to block this path. [clapping and sheering] And, you know, why? Can't you see that we are intertwined? That my people can be truly safe if Basil's people are truly free and safe. There is another way. It's not too late for life, for the living. There is no other way. Thank you.

CH: That was Yuval Abraham, and before him Basel Adra, speaking at the Oscars last night after their film, No Other Land won best documentary feature.

[lounge jazz]

Surrey Seagull Surveys

Guest: Mark Hipfner

CH: If you happen to be strolling the coast of the Salish Sea and spot a seagull with a colourful plastic band on its leg, Mark Hipfner wants to know about it. He's a scientist with Environment and Climate Change Canada. And for years now, his research team has been tagging and monitoring glaucous-winged gulls throughout British Columbia. They periodically trap the gulls and take blood and feather samples -- which I'm sure the birds handle with the quiet poise for which gulls are known. But it's all worth it -- because the data can tell them a lot about the health of the region's marine ecosystems. And now, they're petitioning the public for help finding more of it. We reached Mark Hipfner in Vancouver, British Columbia.

NK: Mark, what's the, what's the response been so far as you put out this call for, for the public, for citizen science collaborators, how are people responding?

MARK HIPFNER: Yeah, they're responding, I would say, with a great deal of enthusiasm. It's been quite heartening to see so much public interest in our research program. We're asking people if they can send us photographs of gulls that we banded, and then also report them online. And there's a link available. If you Google the Salish Seagull Project, you'll find the link quite quickly.

NK: And what specifically are you asking, you know, before they take those photographs and, and go to that link, what should they be on the lookout for?

MH: So, gulls are, you know, ubiquitous. They're abundant. They're easily recognizable. You see them in city parks along the coast in British Columbia. And so, we put bands out, I think about 700 birds now over the last five years. And so, the birds will have three coloured bands. They'll have a colour band over a metal band on their right leg, and they'll have two coloured bands on their left leg. And we're using 10 different colors. So, that gives us a total of 1,000 individual, individuals that we can recognize. So, if you can just, if, we're asking people if they can just get photographs of the birds when they're walking on the beaches or in the parks. Everybody carries a cell phone around nowadays. I mean, everybody but me.

NK: [chuckling] Oh yeah?!

MH: So, so, it's a simple matter to get a photograph. And thus far, I think we're, we're getting close to a thousand online reports. And we're going to a better online reporting system. So, we think this will get easier, and people can get the photos and upload them directly to the link on the web.

NK: And so, this is about tracking their location but their habits as well?

MH: Yeah. So, we're interested in a couple of things. First of all, how do the gulls utilize marine habitats and even urban habitats in the Salish Sea? And then, the second thing we're interested in is deriving an estimate of age-specific survival rates. So, we're putting the, the bands out on birds of all different age classes. And we want to over the next, I don't know, eight to 10 years, hopefully, get an estimate of their survival rates. So, what proportion of individuals alive in one year survive into the next year?

NK: And you've been doing this work and your team for about five years now. So, what have you been able to learn so far?

MH: The gull program is part of a larger program around the Salish Sea Marine Bird Monitoring and Conservation Program, and it's a five-year program designed to monitor marine birds as indicators of health, the health of the Salish Sea. So, we work both inside and outside the Salish Sea. Obviously, the Salish Sea is a heavily urbanized ecosystem, unlike most of the rest of the B.C. coast. So, if we want to understand how conditions are for the gulls inside the Salish Sea, we need a point of reference. So, that's why we work outside the Salish Sea. It's been ongoing since 2020. This is our last year of funding, but I would certainly like to keep components of this program going. So, that's the basic idea. Survival rates are the most important demographic parameter for long-lived species like gulls. But it does feel like it's a slow business to collect the data necessary to, to monitor survival rates.

NK: But from what you've seen so far, how are they doing? I mean, is it, are you encouraged or worried by what you've seen so far?

MH: The survival analysis is just one piece. The main part of the program is we're monitoring health, so we're collecting small blood samples from these birds. My veterinarian Nina does the blood sampling. And then, we take the samples to a lab at Simon Fraser University and we run a battery of physiological tests. So, basically we're taking the gulls to the doctor and saying how healthy are you? And we're also monitoring contaminants. How contaminated are the birds? Are they more contaminated inside the Salish Sea versus outside the Salish Sea? That sort of thing. So, it's a comprehensive program, and the banding program is just one small piece of the larger project.

NK: How do the gulls respond to, to those doctor visits? [chuckle]

MH: Yeah, I mean, they're, they're very intelligent birds. They, obviously, they are trying to avoid getting trapped. But yeah, no, they're fine. It doesn't do them any harm. I think, as I've mentioned, we've blood sampled about 1,000 gulls now. And thus far, the results look fairly encouraging. We're not seeing any striking differences in health metrics between gulls inside versus outside the Salish Sea. So that's quite telling. It's telling us that the system is generally healthy. We're not done yet, and we haven't really taken a deep dive into the contaminants, for example, which could be a big piece of the story here. But thus far, I would say it's, it's looking like, like a good news story.

NK: Yeah. You said that, you know, they like to avoid people often. But often, people like to avoid them. They think of seagulls as a nuisance. Did you, did you feel that way at one time, or have you always been interested in seagulls, or did your feelings change as you did this research?

MH: Well, I've done research on marine birds for the last 35 years. This is the first project I've done involving gulls. A few things that really stand out to me is that they are incredibly adaptable birds. They've moved into the city here in Vancouver and they're thriving. They're remarkably intelligent. I mean, you just, you feel like you're in a real battle of wits [NK chuckles] with the gulls sometimes when you're trying to trap them. And you have to understand that you're not necessarily going to win. So, it's been a lot of fun. I've really enjoyed it. It's the first project I've done that wasn't just, you know, out on remote islands, doing work on seabirds, but interacting with the public. And I've really enjoyed it. And as I said at the start, I've really been heartened by how enthusiastic and interested people are when we meet them while we're trapping.

NK: It's great to chat with you, Mark. Thank you.

MH: Okay. Thank you very much.

CH: Mark Hipfner is a research scientist with Environment and Climate Change Canada. We reached him in Vancouver, B.C.

[newsy theme]

Part 3: NS Education Bill Folo, D.C. Crash Memorial

Jubiel Wickheim Obit

CH: We don't do a lot of birling anymore. But there was a time when we all dreamed of birling -- and when our heroes were the birlers who birled like birling was going out of style. Which, in the end, it was. Birling is what you call it when two competitors stand on a floating log and try to spin each other off. Those competitions were big back when logging was the lifeblood of small towns. And if you've seen one, you know it's a battle of skill, balance, and sheer grit. And for decades, nobody birled better than Jubiel Wickheim. He was known as "Jube" to his friends and family. And he was a 10-time world champion from Sooke, British Columbia. He mastered birling as a kid during the Great Depression, when he gathered logs for milling with his brothers at Cooper’s Cove in Sooke Basin. And his Guinness World Record still stands today. Jube Wickheim passed away last month at the age of 90. His son Fred Wickheim spoke to the CBC about his dad's legacy -- and his unusual techniques.

SOUNDCLIP

FRED WICKHEIM: Grew up in Sooke, born and raised there, and finished school at Grade 8, went to work, and that was kind of the normal then. And took up log rolling as a hobby, really, nothing. And then, it grew into more. And, you know, won a few championships. And next thing you know after that, then he got called to do a few exhibitions, if you will, on a small nature. And then, it grew into something a lot bigger. And we ended up traveling all over the world with it.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: Yeah, where some of the, I mean, you, you, you guys went to some pretty impressive places, some pretty big audiences with this.

FW: Yeah, we were in Sweden, we were there. South America, we did a trade fair down there, and we made three, four trips to Japan, and then all over North America. We did a lot of work with the SeaWorld parks and a lot of the big fairs.

GC: What makes a good birler?

FW: You're on a 13-foot long red cedar log, and you each have your own half you stand on, and it starts at a larger size log. And as you go through a certain time limit, it used to be two minutes for the big one, you go to a smaller one. So, as you go, they're progressively smaller. It's a little bit harder to stay on. And it's a battle of wills. It's the ones that, you know, want to stay on the longest, and the ones that take that one more step to fight that decides who's going to be the winner.

GC: So, what made your dad such an exceptional birler, do you think?

FW: His mental toughness or whatever. He was the most unorthodox, if you look at him from a technical point of view, he was awkward as could be all over the log. But he would wear you down 'till he got you where he wanted you.

GC: So, how was he unorthodox. Like --

FW: Just very, not smooth. Like, you know, it's like somebody running. There are some who very, run real smooth. And others are kind of flopping arms and moving everything. And that was him. He was very awkward on it. You'd think he was never in control, but he was in control.

GC: And wouldn't give up.

FW: No, no, that's, that's the one sport of the logger sports you compete against others but timed. But this one is a direct one-on-one.

CH: That was Fred Wickheim talking to Gregor Craigie, host of On The Island today. His father, Jube Wickheim was one of Canada's most celebrated log rollers. He died last month at the age of 90.

[‘90s toy store music]

NS Education Bill Folo

Guest: Lindsay Wadden

CH: People across Nova Scotia, and the country, are concerned about the measures laid out in the province’s new bill. And especially the people who work in post-secondary education. Last month, the provincial government introduced Bill 12. If passed, it would allow the minister of advanced education to withhold funding from a university, if it does not align with the government's, quote, "social and economic priorities." Unquote. On Friday, we talked to a professor who's the vice president of the Canadian Association of University Teachers. Here's a bit of what she told Nil.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBIN WHITAKER: Well, I think a big concern for us is the way that it opens up public post-secondary education to political interference, or the potential of political interference. You know, there are a number of new measures that allow discretion over, for instance, operating grant funding by the, by the minister of advanced education if universities are not deemed to be sufficiently aligned with provincial priorities. I think this is part of a trend we're seeing across the country, unfortunately. And it's, it's quite alarming to us.

CH: That was Robin Whitaker, with the Canadian Association of University Teachers. Lindsay Wadden is the senior executive director of advanced education for the government of Nova Scotia. We reached her in Halifax.

NK: Lindsay Wadden, you heard the criticism there, and she's certainly not the only one with that criticism. The bill would give the province the power to appoint up to half of the board of governors at universities, and links funding to the government's priorities. So, they are saying that this is political interference. This looks and sounds a lot like that. How do you respond to that criticism?

LINDSAY WADDEN: We continue to recognize the importance of having diverse and quality programing in the province. That's not going to change. This is really enabling legislation that ensures that we're providing schools with the, you know, the appropriate supports and tools. And to ensure long-term sustainability of the post-secondary sector, we want to continue to see schools thrive now and into the future.

NK: Why do you, why do you need to have more of a presence on a board of governors and tie funding to government priorities to make all of that happen?

LW: We took that approach because we want to work closely with each of our institutions, to collaborate, to consult, and to make sure that we're responsive to the unique needs of each of our schools.

NK: One of the other critics of what is being proposed here is Peter MacInnis, the president of the Canadian Association of University Teachers. He spoke to our CBC News colleagues, and says, you know, as they're trying to make sense of this, that if accountability is at the heart of this, from, from your perspective, and the government's perspective, there's already a peer review system for funding decisions at universities. So again, why, why this increased presence on boards, and tying funding to government priorities?

LW: We need to recognize that there is considerable public funding that flow into our universities each year. And we need to ensure that there is that financial viability, that there is accountability and transparency, and that --

NK: But, but it sounds like there already are accountability measures in place, at least according to the Canadian Association of University Teachers. I wonder, Lindsay, what you would say to people who are listening to what you're saying and are actually becoming more frightened? Because this looks and sounds like a lot of what we hear when the government reaches into spaces that it's normally at arm's length. What would you say to people who are genuinely concerned that this is government overreach, and the beginning of something that will reach even further?

LW: So I, I think, again, this is really about enabling legislation to make sure that board governance is aligning with best practices. We're not looking to control boards. These institutions are independent board-governed institutions. We value the universities, the administration, and the board members, and we continue to recognize them as very strong and critical partners.

NK: One of the other things that Robin Whitaker said to us in that conversation is that, that she and others doing post-secondary work were stunned. They did not see this bill coming, and they weren't consulted about it. Why not consult the people that you say you're trying to help, the institutions that you're trying to help? Why would you surprise them with this?

LW: So, much of the, much of the legislation is enabling in nature. And, as I mentioned, a lot of the detail around the changes will be set forth in regulation. And so --

NK: But why blindside them with this? Why blindside them with this? Why not consult with them so they can tell you this is what we need as an individual university?

LW: We have consulted with the schools, and worked with them very closely over the last year. And we continue to consult. The current agreement is ending March 31st, 2025, and we have been actively consulting with the sector to understand their perspectives for that.

NK: But they didn't know about the legislation. They didn't know that this was coming.

LW: And, and we, we need to ensure that we have accountability and the right tools in place to ensure that the sector is set up for success in the long term, that schools are well supported, but also that there is that accountability and transparency related to the significant amount of public funding that flows to our universities. But we'll continue to work closely with our universities and the province.

NK: Tomorrow, the auditor general there is expected, as I understand it, to, to release, a report looking at how the Department of Advanced Education -- which you work for, obviously -- is, is doing on this front of funding, monitoring, and holding universities accountable for public funds, how effective the department is on that front. How might the findings of the auditor general affect this legislation or the path you take?

LW: I think that the new proposed legislative framework is also another tool to allow us to continue to support the university sector, to ensure that we're aligning with best practices. But also, to recognize that there is considerable public funding flowing into our universities, and that we do need to ensure that we are protecting stakeholders such as students. And that universities, we want to see them thrive now into the future.

NK: Right. In addition to this bill, Premier Tim Houston has introduced, and then withdrawn, legislation that would allow cabinet to fire the auditor general without cause. The premier ended the practice of media scrums outside the legislative chamber, before reinstituting them a few weeks later. What do you say to people in your province and across the country -- or our listeners everywhere, really -- who are concerned that, again, this government is overreaching. And, at the same time, trying to, to weaken eyes on its own accountability, those who are trying to hold it accountable.

LW: I would say from Advanced Education's perspective, which is what I can speak to, is that we are working closely with our institutions, will continue to do that.

NK: Lindsay Wadden, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

LW: Pleasure speaking to you. Thank you.

CH: That was Lindsay Wadden. She is the senior executive director of advanced education for the Government of Nova Scotia. She’s in Halifax.

[folk rock]

Ottawa Parking Collapse

CH: It was any ordinary day for Line De Matteis. She drove to work in the morning and parked in the same downtown Ottawa garage where she always parked. But after work, when she was about to leave, she spotted crumbling concrete on the ceiling of the top floor of the parking garage. So she took a photo and fired off an email to Indigo, the company that manages it. Less than 12 hours later, the garage partially collapsed. No injuries were reported. But now, five days after the collapse, dozens of vehicles are still stuck inside — and they could be stuck there for weeks. Adam Hosny is a structural engineer with Capacity Engineering in Ottawa. His team of four were the last people in the garage before the roof came down. Here's what he told Rebecca Zandbergen, host of Ottawa Morning, about what he saw.

SOUNDCLIP

ADAM HOSNY: We were on the top level of the parking garage, or the, the kind of half-level roof just below the, below the top level. And we saw the beam actually already snapped and completely failed. So typically, you would see signs of a beam starting to fail, but not completely fail. That's what I was expecting to see. A beam that's going to be, you know, that's undergoing failure but hasn't failed. What I saw was a beam that had already failed. So, we were concerned right away. We started, you know, doing an assessment, seeing how wide, how much of the structure is damaged. And, you know, how long, potentially, it could stay standing if we could get guys in to support it.

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: Could you hear the building failing?

AH: So, the biggest, the biggest thing for us when there's an active collapse is the building speaks to you. So, you want to be quiet, you want to listen to it, you want to listen for cracks, you want to listen for, for, you know, snaps, pops, and anything. We didn't hear anything at the time until, you know, the last 30 seconds we were there. We were looking, and then, actually, one of the steel tendons in the beam snapped.

RZ: While you're there?

AH: While we were there. And I saw it, and it's the first time my heart actually dropped on the job. So, after that, I said, let's get out of here. So Colton, and myself, and the firemen, we we just walked out. And then, I debriefed the the deputy fire chief, and I basically said, no one should go back in this building.

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: Yeah. And how long did you think it would last? Because, in fact, by 4, 5 in the morning, part of it went down.

AH: Yeah. So, it was hard to tell right off the hop. Based on what we saw, it was, we suspected that by morning it probably wouldn't be there. But as the night went on, and we continued to hear snaps of, and failures of the steel tendons, we kind of thought, okay, this is, this is going to be, you know, early morning. It was becoming, unfortunately, becoming more certain that it was, that it was going to fail.

CH: That was Adam Hosny, a structural engineer with Capacity Engineering, talking to Rebecca Zandbergen, the host of Ottawa Morning.

[indie rock]

D.C. Crash Memorial

Guest: Ari Zakarian

CH: Last night, the Capital One Arena in Washington D.C. was packed. And over and over, when the applause for a performance ended, you could hear people weeping. They were there for a skating show in honour of the 67 people who died when an America Eagle Flight collided with a Black Hawk helicopter, and crashed into the Potomac River. Twenty-eight of the victims were competitive ice skaters, their family members, or coaches. And last night, some of the most beloved skaters in U.S. history came together to perform for an audience that was there to celebrate, and to mourn. Ari Zakarian organized the event. He's a sports agent and a former professional skater. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

NK: Ari, is there a moment from last night that is staying with you today?

ARI ZAKARIAN: Yes, of course. For me, it was something which I'm quite proud of skating community, I'm quite proud of the city of Washington, and the people that came and they supported this event. Because it's been very spiritual, and it's been a very special event. Now, today, like when I wake up, I felt some really good relieved. And I know that it makes some, somehow feel that you did something good. And this will stay with me for probably the rest of my life as a good memory. Of course, for the not a happy event, but something which makes me feel very, very good about it.

NK: There was something healing about it for you, it sounds like?

AZ: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, exactly.

NK: These are skaters who lost colleagues and friends, coaches, but also parents. I mean, to say this is, this, this is an emotional time is certainly an understatement. And yes, you know, people often turn to the things that they love and their work, or their, or their sport to cope. But, you know, it might be hard for some people to imagine how they even managed to get on that ice last night. What did the skaters tell you about why they wanted to take part?

AZ: When the tragedy happened, I was in a position, I start really thinking, like, you know, what, how I can help. Like, you know, how I can help. People are gone. Next thing, I made, I made, like, call a good friend of mine. And I said, listen, I said, I just want to do something. And then, everybody was on board. And I started reaching out to all the Hall of Fame figure skaters, you know, Scott Hamilton, Nancy Kerrigan, Brian Boitano, Kristi Yamaguchi, Nathan Chen. I mean, all, all those guys, they, that sort of thing when I told them, guys, we want to do something like this, will you support? And everybody was like, count me in. Count me in. We are coming. We are coming. And everyone was like, we can do everything possible to give those people who love, who lost their loved ones, they can at least to have something to remember about their families.

NK: Maxim Naumov was one of the skaters who performed last night. He also lost both of his parents in that crash. What did he tell you about why he wanted to participate?

AZ: I mean, first of all, I would not probably will be able to talk to him because it's, I will respect his silence. But then, when things get closer and closer, we reach out to him. And for me, last night, one of the biggest moments for me was when Max finished his performance. And it was, it was, I mean, even now, I'm talking to you, I'm getting very emotional. And he came up to me, and he hugged me, and he says, thank you for doing this. Thank you, thank you for, like, making this, this special moment in my life. I will never forget this. That made everything with all the hard work, what we have done, with all the hours we've spent. And, and I understand not only because of him, I understand that there were so many of them they lost loved ones, but he was a direct son of father and mother. And through his performance, I think we delivered that message to the rest of the, the 67 people that they were gone. And to their families. And, hopefully, this type of show will keep the memories of their loved ones in a nice spiritual way, and will keep the, the name of the legacy on ice, the way it can only bring the nice and, and good memories. Even it's a tragedy.

NK: Ari. Thank you.

AZ: You're welcome.

CH: Ari Zakarian organized the event in honour of the 67 people who died in a plane crash near Washington D.C. We reached him in Washington.

[sombre instrumental]

FOA: Australian Blood Donor Obit

CH: Every two weeks, for more than 60 years, James Harrison showed up at his local blood bank to have his blood taken. He didn't like it much, but he did it anyway -- because he knew his blood was special. Mr. Harrison died last month. He was 88. He was nicknamed "the man with the golden arm", because his blood contained a rare antibody that was used to make medication given to mothers -- which, according to the Australian Red Cross, saved the lives of 2.4 million babies. James Harrison was eventually told he had to stop giving blood, even though he didn't want to. In 2018, after a party at the blood bank to mark his last appointment, he spoke to former As It Happens host Carol Off.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: James, how did it feel to make that final blood donation on Sunday?

JAMES HARRISON: Very sad, it was the end of an era. 62 years of donating and the party they put on with others an babies thanking me is really a sort of heart wrenching departure.

CO: And so they also they had balloons shaped in the numbers 1173. What did that signify?

JH: That signified the number of donations I have made in my lifetime.

CO: Of blood.

JH: Of blood and plasma donations.

CO: And so the people who were there, who was giving you this big send-off?

JH: The Red Cross, the blood bank service in Sydney. They're the ones that put the kybosh on me going any further so they put in on to lessen the blow.

CO: But now they don't give this kind of send-off to every blood plasma donor in Australia. They did this because you are called ‘The Man With The Golden Arm.’

JH: 1163 out of my right arm and my 10 out of my left arm.

CO: And what is it that makes your blood so special?

JH: I have an antibody called NTD, which is processed and given to mothers to be who are negative blood group with a positive blood group partner. The first child will be normal, but she releases into her system with the birth of that child, a nasty antibody that floats around and when she conceives the next time it goes in and affects the unborn fetus, the unborn child. So they get an injection after the first child and sometimes now a couple more during their pregnancy and that baby will be born OK. Some people have approached me and said ‘Thank you for my seven children. My nine children.’ One lady had 13 children after two miscarriages and that was a problem, the number of miscarriages that were happening up until that time that I discovered this NTD antibody.

CO: And what role then do you play? What did you do? How did you contribute to saving all those babies?

JH: Well, I had the NTD right from the start. Apparently, they think I got it from a blood transfusion many years before. And I decided at that time that I'd become a full blood donor to give back the blood that I had received from my operation. And in 1966 they asked would I take part in the trial for this new product called NTD. Of course I was quite happy to.

CO: And how many babies do you think have been saved because of this antibody in your blood?

JH: Well, I didn't keep them but they told me that over two million. They make quite a number of injections out of a bag of plasma — 55 or 58 NTD donations which they send to the laboratories and they make the viles up to give the injections. They say I’m in every batch that's been made to date.

CO: How does that make you feel to realize that you have saved the lives of more than two million babies?

JH: It feels good because my life was saved with blood transfusions, and while this is probably a different way, I’m doing what I can. It costs nothing a bit of time and the thanks you get makes you shiver. My own daughter had to get an injection because she is negative and her husband's positive. And so I've seen the result because my grandson is near 23 years old and at university. Yes, that makes you feel good that you're doing something, which costs nothing really, just time.

CO: And now how many people are like you have this antibody in their blood?

JH: As far as I know, I think there's probably close to 100. They’re probably not dedicated enough to go every fortnight but there’s about a hundred out there that have NTD. I have a — they’re investigating my NTD because it's a different sort of NTD. They’re investigating to see it if they can clone it.

CO: I understand you were afraid of needles?

JH: I've never once watched the needle go into my arm.

CO: But now it's not going to happen anymore. You're not going to be rolling up your sleeve, you're not going to be giving blood. What will doctors do without you?

JH: I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they are calling for a rerun, who knows? But now at this stage I've just got to find something else to do on a Friday afternoon.

CO: But what are they going to do when they need those antibodies?

JH: Well, there are other up NTD donors out there, so they’ll just have to stretch it out, I’d imagine. They must have others, otherwise they would have probably asked me to stay on, but they'll manage.

CH: James Harrison -- known as "the man with the golden arm" -- speaking to Carol Off in 2018. Mr. Harrison died last month. He was 88.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

The AIH Transcript For March 3

More Stories Like This