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The AIH transcript for February 28, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: No deal. What was meant to be a prelude to renewed security ties between the U.S. and Ukraine fell apart today after a very tense and very public clash between Presidents Trump and Zelenskyy, leaving the future of their relationship, and Ukraine -- unclear.

CH: Substitute teacher. Nova Scotia has proposed giving itself sweeping new powers over universities. A critic of Bill 12 that's less about higher education and more about a higher degree of government control.

NK: Collision recourse. Two years after the worst rail disaster in Greece's history, hundreds of thousands of people fill the streets to demand justice.

CH: Running for their lives. As the Trump administration rolls back the rights of trans Americans, an immigration lawyer in Toronto tells us she's hearing from a lot of people who are eager, and increasingly desperate, to move to Canada.

NK: Rolling with the punch-out. The town clerk in Heart's Content, Newfoundland and Labrador tells us what it's like to lock up for the last time, after nearly 60 years in the job.

CH: And... riesling to the challenge. Science proves that, when we take the time to teach them, rats, like some humans, can tell the difference between two different types of wine.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that proves grape minds think alike.

Part 1: Zelenskyy/Trump Meeting, Athens Train Crash Protest, Heart’s Content Clerk

Zelenskyy/Trump Meeting

Guest: Alexandra Chyczij

CH: There were plans for a joint press conference, and a signing ceremony for a new U.S.-Ukraine deal over rare minerals. But all of that went out the window after Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy met with President Donald Trump and Vice-President J.D. Vance in the Oval Office, as reporters looked on and cameras rolled.

SOUNDCLIP

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: During the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. God bless.

DONALD TRUMP: You don't know that.

VZ: God bless you. God bless you. You will not have a war.

DT: Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel.

VZ: I'm not telling you. I';m answering.

DT: Because you're in no position to dictate that. Remember that. You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good.

VZ: You will Feel influenced. I'm telling you.

DT: We're going to feel very good and very strong.

VZ: I'm telling you, you will feel influenced.

DT: You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position. That happens to be right about you.

VZ: From the very beginning of the war.

DT: You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards.

VZ: I'm not playing cards.

DT: Right now, you're playing cards. You're playing cards. You are gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War Three.

CH: President Zelenskyy left the White House after that meeting, without appearing with the U.S. President again or taking questions from reporters. As you may have guessed, no deal was signed. Alexandra Chyczij is the president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. We reached her in Ottawa.

NK: Alexandra, how did you respond the first time you heard those words?

ALEXANDRA CHYCZIJ: I think it was the most appalling display of, or the most appalling behaviour I have ever witnessed from a Western leader.

NK: Were you surprised by it?

AC: I was surprised in that, ostensibly, President Zelenskyy was invited to the White House to complete the deal that Trump seemed to want with respect to the rare earth minerals. But in terms of the level of discourse from Trump, I don't think anything surprises any of us anymore. He is unhinged and unrestrained.

NK: The U.S. president and vice president characterized Ukraine's President Zelenskyy as ungrateful, and we got, certainly got a hint of that in that exchange we just heard. What did you make of that, that specific, you know, insult? That he hadn't said thank you, when, of course, we've heard and seen the Ukrainian president say thank you in many forms and on social media before. But, but that particular part of that exchange.

AC: I think this was deliberately set up to, to humiliate President Zelenskyy. I think they attempted to humiliate him, but I think that President Zelensky stood up proud and stood his ground with, with Trump and with Vance. I think they were trying to provoke him because they are becoming accustomed to Western leaders coming to the White House and kissing the ring. And, unfortunately, that includes Starmer. And that is not what Zelenskyy did, because Zelenskyy was held up to ransom, really, for the rare earth mineral deal. And that, that just wasn't enough for Trump and Vance.

NK: I wonder, you know, even saying as you did and as many people feel nothing surprises you with this administration, did you think that the best-case scenario at the end of this would be that deal and would be a step closer, if not a peace deal or a ceasefire right away?

AC: Well, I don't think any, any of us that is in the Ukrainian Canadian community believe that there is the possibility of a ceasefire. Putin has violated every ceasefire he's entered into. He's violated every treaty that he's ever signed. This was, it appears to be nothing more than an attempt by Trump to extract wealth and riches for himself. He is negotiating with the Ukrainians for their rare earth minerals. And he's doing the same thing with Putin. He's going for the, the, the wealth that is buried in the soil of the Donbas, which Putin occupies right now. So, this is a business deal for, for Trump. It has nothing to do with peace.

NK: So, what does happen now in your view? What do you want to see? What do you expect to see from the Ukrainian president now that all of this happened?

AC: tThe Ukrainians are, sorry, the Republicans are falling in line. They're, they're held hostage by Trump. They're beholden to him. I am shocked that there isn't a more rational response from the Republicans. That they simply mimic and ape everything that, that Trump says. The fact that Trump is calling for an all-out media response from his cabinet tells me that maybe he has been told that he overstepped here, that he perhaps didn't come out smelling like a rose here. But as far as President Zelenskyy's next steps, I think that the recourse, of course, is, is the, the obvious one to Europe. The Europeans, after the Munich Security Conference, have rallied together with the U.K. and with Canada. Everyone understands that the US is no longer a reliable security partner, and we all have to make alternative arrangements. And the sooner that happens, the better. The Europeans are now talking about the actual seizure of the frozen $300 billion of Russian assets. And Zelensky should take the rare earth mineral deal to the Europeans. Why give it to Trump if he's not going to help them anyways?

NK: The, the foreign policy chief for the European Union said it made similar statements, you know, saying that the free world needs a new leader after what we saw at the White House today. Ukraine is Europe. We stand by Ukraine is what she posted. Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau just tweeted a few moments ago, Russia illegally and unjustifiably invaded Ukraine. Ukrainians have fought with courage and resilience. Their fight for democracy, freedom, and sovereignty is a fight that matters to us all. Canada will continue to stand with Ukraine and Ukrainians in achieving a just and lasting peace. But is that enough? Is that support from Canada and other allies, the Europeans, is that going to be enough to replace the ally that Ukraine had in the United States?

AC: Well, in terms of militarily, I think that the U.K. and Canada have a greater combined GDP than the Americans do. I think there are stockpiles of weapons that can still be drawn upon to keep Ukraine fighting. And I ultimately don't believe that there was any reasonable prospect of a ceasefire to be negotiated by Trump. Trump gave away every single concession he had before the conversation even started. It's extracting what he can from the vulnerable.

NK: Alexandra, I thank you for your time.

AC: Thank you.

CH: Alexandra Chyczij is the president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. We reached her in Ottawa.

[ambient electronic]

Athens Train Crash Protest

Guest: Iliana Magra

CH: Across Greece, hundreds of thousands of people were out into the streets to call for justice for the people who were killed in the country's worst rail disaster. Two years ago today, a passenger train collided head-on with a freight train, killing 57 people, most of them students. And that disaster has become a symbol of institutional failure, and a lack of government accountability, in Greece. So far, only rail officials have been charged with any crimes. Iliana Magra is a journalist with the Greek newspaper Kathimerini. We reached her in Athens, earlier today.

NK: Iliana, what did you see on the streets of Athens today?

ILIANA MAGRA: An unprecedented amount of people. It was, it was absolutely insane. I mean, we were expecting that there would be a big turnout, but this was, it was extreme. You could not cross the street in a lot of, in a lot of the streets of downtown Athens. There were people everywhere. And it was very peaceful for, for about two to three hours. So, it just showed that there were so many people who were there with their children, with their friends. There were a lot of people there who had never been to a protest before. There were older people, disabled people. I mean, all sorts of people took to the streets of Athens today.

NK: And Athens, I mean, protests are, are something that happen in Athens. It's, it's not a rare thing that, that people protest there. But what you're describing, and it sounds like to you as someone who lives there, that this is, this is very different than, than what you usually see at a protest there?

IM: Yeah, it was just, it was a mass, mass protest. And, and that was, that, that was something that we, I haven't experienced in my lifetime before.

NK: The people in the streets who you spoke with in your reporting, what did, what did they tell you about why they wanted to be there, and why they were protesting?

IM: So, most of the people I talked to said that they just want justice to be served. When it comes to the Tempe train accident, which claimed 57 lives two, two years ago today. That was what they were asking for. And a lot, a lot of them were clarifying that this doesn't mean that they're there because they want the government to, to resign, or the prime minister to resign. It just that they felt that they need to express their need for justice. Others were also saying that they, they would also demand a change of government or elections to be held. But mostly the universal, the claim, the common claim that most people who were there had was for justice to be served.

NK: We've also seen video of, of some violence there, certainly, and police response. Can you tell our listeners about that part of the story, about that part of the protest?

IM: Sure. So, as I said, the protest was, it was very peaceful for, for a long time. So, it started officially at 11, but people were, were gathering from 10. And until 1 p.m., everything was fine. I mean, there were so many people there, but there were no riots. And then, at around 1 p.m., we started hearing very loud noises. And we could tell that in Syntagma Square, so just in front of the parliament, there, there was a clash between rioters and the riot police. And then, that expanded towards the, the main street that leads to Syntagma, where there were a lot of protesters as well. And a lot of people started running. And then, the rioters and the riot police sort of got into this tug of war, which up to an extent continues until now. And now, it's, what, it's almost 9 p.m. in Greece.

NK: So, the protests are still ongoing?

IM: Yeah. I mean to a much, it's contained now. But, but it's still ongoing. It hasn't completely stopped yet.

NK: In terms of the justice that that people you spoke with are seeking, and what has happened in the aftermath of the crash. If we go back just to the, the days and weeks after, after the crash happened, and we certainly covered it at that time, there were a lot of concerns about, about those days and weeks and what was done. The site was cleaned up very quickly, as, as, as I recall. What are people concerned about on that front?

IM: So, a lot of people are worrying that this was done on purpose. That the site of the accident was, was not protected as it should have been. So, that led to loss of evidence. And that's why we, we still don't know, or at least the public doesn't know. But some investigators that recently released a big report on the matter also said that they couldn't identify which flammable substance caused a big fireball after the train collision. So, so, so, a lot of people that are wearing the protests are saying that this was a government cover-up. But, but others just think that this was a result of incompetence. Because what that report said, the one that I mentioned, which was released yesterday by the Hellenic Air and Safety Investigation Authority, that report claimed that in the, in the immediate hours after the accident, the focus of the investigation was at Larissa Station. And in the scope of it was the cause of the crash. So, they were concerned at the time that much about what caused the explosion. So, the site of the actual accident was not treated that much as a site where evidence would be found. And that started later on.

NK: And in that inquiry that officials released yesterday, they blamed human error, outdated infrastructure, and significant systemic failures for the head-on crash. Are things safer today?

IM: Well, what a lot of people were saying at the protest today, is that part of the reason why they went to the protest is that they still don't feel safe to take the train in Greece. And I think that this is, this is something that the government really has to address when it comes to the Greek people. That this has affected them to an, an intrinsic level. It has really affected their trust in the government, but not just this government, in the Greek state in general, irrespective of governments when it comes to their personal safety.

NK: Iliana, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

IM: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Iliana Magra is a journalist with the Greek newspaper Kathimerini. She’s in Athens.

[folk]

Heart’s Content Clerk

Guest: Alice Cumby

CH: Alice Cumby first walked into the town office in Heart's Content as an employee in 1968. And today, she walked out for the last time. Ms. Cumby has served as clerk for the town in Trinity Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador for more than half a century. And this year, at the age of 82, she decided it was finally time to say goodbye. We reached Alice Cumby at the Heart's Content municipal building, earlier today.

NK: Alice, how is your official last day going so far?

ALICE CUMBY: Oh my, it's beautiful. [NK chuckles warmly] We've had, we've had an open house here. And, well, our town is only like probably around 300 people, but we've had a lot of visitors from outside, and a lot of cards, a lot of gifts. Oh, probably around 150 people here so far today.

NK: A lot of love. It sounds like, too.

AC: Yes.

NK: How does that feel?

AC: I'm a bit overwhelmed. I guess I'm a bit sad now it's, it's my last day. But so far, I'm happy. I knew it was the right time, so.

NK: Yeah. No work really getting done, but I guess that's okay. [laughing] I guess you're owed out after all these years.

AC: That's right.

NK: If we go back to 1968, what, what made you want to apply for the job in the first place?

AC: We lived in St. John's at the time, and we moved, my husband didn't want to be in St. John's. He wanted to move around the bay. He was a bay boy. And that's where he wanted to work, too. So, we moved around the bay, and I had two kids at a time. I have two girls. One was four, the other one was 10 months old. I guess I got a little bored.

NK: Yeah. You were looking for a change.

AC: I was looking for something to do. I got the chance to do an interview. So, me and this other guy did the interview. And then, I got a call that I got the job, [NK chuckles] and I, and I didn't, I didn't look back after that. Then, it was like getting street lights here, forming a fire brigade, organizing the garbage collection.

NK: You've really made a difference.

AC: Yeah.

NK: Do you feel that? Do you feel proud of yourself?

AC: Yeah. It's been a wonderful, it's been a wonderful, you know, it's a long time. But it seemed like I never wanted to let go. And I had wonderful support from my family, so.

NK: It sounds like it. When you, when you love your team, and you love the work that you do, and the people that you're serving.

AC: And you, you interact with a lot of people. And what you find, too, is that you do a lot of things for people. Like, just, you know, little things that people need done. I got involved with heritage, you know, because we are a heritage town.

NK: Yeah.

AC: With the museum. And we got, you know, we're in for a UNESCO designation, hopefully, three or four years time. So, they're heavily into preparations for that.

NK: Heart's Content is a pretty beautiful name for a place.

AC: It's a beautiful town.

NK: Can you describe it for us? What it's like. I've never had a chance to visit.

AC: It's got a beautiful harbour. It's got a lighthouse that's very popular. It's just, it's just, you know, it's just, I don't know what it's like. I can see, you know, why they landed the transatlantic cable here. [laughing]

NK: The first successful cable landed there?

AC: Transatlantic cable. Yeah. Yeah. We've had a, a lot of people come in like, say, from, you know, from other communities and from the mainland that have bought houses here and settled. Not just, like, say, for summer homes or vacation homes, but, like, have settled here for all year. And, actually, that was one of the things I noticed today when I saw some people coming into the open house, right?

NK: Yeah?

AC: It was some people that I had done some work with and helped them get settled in here.

NK: That must, that must feel really great?

AC: Yeah, it really is.

NK: So, how did you decide that now was the right time?

AC: I was getting ready for a council meeting on the 20th of October. I don't know what it was, but all of a sudden, I said, I think this is time. I made a decision on my own. My kid, my children had been asking me for a while. I do have a bit of a mobility problem. So, I did have a serious illness a couple of years ago, an infection.

NK: Oh, I'm sorry.

AC: And so, mobility was a bit of the issue, but not a lot. Like I said, I can sit on the chair and that and do things fine. But I figured it was time. And I wrote a letter, and I went home and showed it to my husband. He said, what?! Yeah, I said, that's it. I'm finished.

NK: He couldn't believe, he retired a while back, right? He was surprised.

AC: Yeah, he retired in '99 from the post office.

NK: In '99, did you say?

AC: Yeah, '99. Yeah, he worked there for 35 years.

NK: And you kept working? You kept working?

AC: Yeah, yeah, kept working, yeah.

NK: So, is the whole family coming to the send-off, the celebration they've got planned for you tomorrow?

AC: Yeah, the whole family are here in the room right now.

NK: Awe!

AC: Yeah.

NK: If any of your children want to, want to speak to me, I wouldn't mind chatting with one of them about you, if you don't mind?

AC: Okay. One second then.

GAIL RANDALL: Hello.

NK: Hi, there. This is Nil in the As It Happens studio. Who am I speaking with?

GR: This is Gail Randall.

NK: Gail. So lovely to speak with you. You're one of Alice's children?

GR: Yeah, I'm the youngest, actually.

NK: awe, the youngest! I don't know if it's the short straw, or the lucky one [laughing] that you get to speak with us, but, you know, it was so, it's so lovely to, to hear about the outpouring of love for your mother, and that you're all there, too. How do you feel that she's finally decided to, to step back from this job she's had for so long?

GR: It's bittersweet, but the timing is right, I think.

NK: Were you surprised as much as your father was when she said, I'm going to leave now?

GR: Yeah, we were pretty shocked. We've been chatting to her about it, but when she finally made up her mind, I said, that's what she's like.

NK: [chuckling] And when she commits to something, she really commits.

GR: Oh, she do. She has her own mind. And when she commits, she's all in.

NK: What did she tell you about why she stayed with this job for so long?

GR: It's the people. You know, the interactions with the people, and all the different people who've come through, and being able to help. Mom is a doer. Mom is a talker. She's a doer. [NK chuckles] So, she was very involved in Girl Guides. But my brother didn't have Cubs here, so she started up Cubs. And, you know, they talked about the lighthouse a how nice the lighthouse was. So, she decided to get it registered. You know she's just, people talk, but Mom's a doer.

NK: Every, every community, whether it's big or small, needs, needs, needs an Alice, I think.

GR: Yep.

NK: I think. Well, listen, I appreciate this. Thank you for jumping on the line for us. Can I, can I talk to your mom one more time?

GR: Yes, certainly. Just one second, please.

NK: Thank you. And congratulations to all of you.

GR: All right. And thanks for highlighting her wonderful career.

NK: Oh, it's a pleasure.

GR: Okay.

AC: Hello.

NK: Hi, Alice. You're not rid of me yet. [laughing] I just, I just wanted to say it was great. And, listen, I hope you have a wonderful retirement, and more adventures from here on in.

AC: Thank you so much.

NK: Take care.

AC: Bye-bye.

CH: Alice Cumby has been the town clerk in Heart's Content, Newfoundland and Labrador, for 57 years. We reached her -- and her daughter, Gail -- in Heart's Content.

[classic rock]

Sommelier Rats

CH: [sniff] Mmm. I’m getting notes of leather; parrot urine; diesel fuel...from a truck stop in Edmonton -- no, no, Lethbridge; and grapes. I'm really getting grapes here. Oh, sorry. I’m just checking the nose on this wine. The rat that lives in the control room here has been helping me hone my olfactory prowess. I had a hunch Allan would be good at this; last week he scurried past the cheese strings I was eating for lunch and headed straight for the Pule cheese -- which, you know, as you know, is made from Balkan donkey milk. For a rat, he has refined tastes. You know, but I shouldn't say "for a rat". I’m so sorry, Allan. Now, there’s scientific proof that rats have the makings of excellent sommeliers. A new paper published in the journal Animal Cognition on rats' olfactory abilities shows that they could reliably distinguish between Riesling and Sauvignon Blanc. And not just between one specific Riesling and one specific Sauvignon Blanc -- they learned to identify the grape variety in totally new samples from a wide variety of terroirs. Now, the point of the study was to test the widely-held belief that our bigger brains -- and our mastery of cool wine-tasting language -- made humans better smellers. Turns out: no. So, I, for one, welcome our new rat sommeliers. And, really, it's kind of nice to learn that we're not the only ones who can catch the bouquet.

[jaunty instrumental]

Part 2: NS Education Bill, LGBT Immigration Help

NS Education Bill

Guest: Robin Whitaker

CH: A university curriculum is generally designed by faculty members. But it appears, the government of Nova Scotia also wants to have a say. Last week, the provincial government introduced Bill 12. If passed, it would allow the minister of advanced education to withhold grants if a university does not align with the government's, quote, "social and economic priorities". The government says it's about meeting the needs of the province. But critics say it's a political power grab -- one that threatens academic freedom and the autonomy of post-secondary institutions in Canada. Robin Whitaker is the vice president of the Canadian Association of University Teachers. She's also a professor in the department of anthropology at Memorial University in Newfoundland and Labrador. We reached her in St. John's.

NK: Robin, were you and your members prepared for this bill?

ROBIN WHITAKER: No. Well, we were quite surprised that it seemed to come out of nowhere, and that in itself is quite alarming. It's not auspicious when, you know, the Nova Scotia government assures institutions that plans won't be imposed, that, you know, it's hard to, to take them at their word when they didn't consult adequately. And, and it shows also a failure, of course, to value the knowledge of those that are on the frontlines of delivering public post-secondary education in Nova Scotia. So, it was quite alarming.

NK: When you did find out about it, what stood out to you in it? What concerns you most?

RW: Well, I think a big concern for us is the way that it opens up public post-secondary education to political interference, or the potential of political interference that, you know, there are a number of new measures that allow discretion over, for instance, operating grant funding by the, by the minister of advanced education. If universities are not deemed to be sufficiently aligned with provincial priorities. And we saw, of course, a change to the way that members of boards of governors are appointed, so that 50 per cent of, of the board members will be government appointees. So, all of those things suggest that the Nova Scotia government is looking for more direct influence over public post-secondary education in the province.

NK: And just to underline that, that one part for our listeners, the bill says up to half of the board of governors at universities may be appointed by the province. Half of the appointments would be up to the universities. How are those appointments, if they want it to be 50/50, how are those appointments split up now?

RW: Well, it varies from institution to institution. And, you know, that reflects a measure of institutional autonomy, which is vital in, in post-secondary education. And I would just say that universities serve diverse publics. They serve diverse communities, and their boards need to reflect that. So, having too much concentration in one source of appointments, it's worrying in terms of how, how well a university can be governed to meet the needs of the people it's serving.

NK: The province has said that this for, for them is not about controlling higher education. It's about ensuring Nova Scotians are getting what they need out of publicly funded institutions. How do you respond to that?

RW: Well, you know, Canadians definitely value public post-secondary education. Unfortunately, what we've seen over recent decades is a continual erosion of, of the public funding of those institutions. And so, if, if the government is interested in ensuring accessibility of university education, public education, to any post-secondary student that, that wants to get there, then that's, that's the way to do it, is to provide stable funding that allows for long-term planning on the parts of, of universities and the people in them. And I saw a quote from a faculty association president at one Nova Scotia University that was indicating that their, their funding from government may be slipping below 50 per cent. And so, it becomes, you know, hard to, to even know whether we can call them public institutions at that point.

NK: Why do you think, Robin, that this is happening now?

RW: I think this is part of a trend we're seeing across the country, unfortunately. And it's, it's quite alarming to us. We saw it in, for instance, Alberta with Bill 18, which has become the Provincial Priorities Act. Now, fortunately, some of the worst aspects of that seem to have been rolled back as far as post-secondary education goes. The proposal to allow the provincial government to interfere in federal research grants, for instance. And that only happened because other members of the Canadian Association of University Teachers pushed back so hard because it is such a serious matter. You know, we, we definitely need to have a healthy research ecosystem in this country. Everyone benefits from it. But for, for, for politicians to think that they know ahead of time what that's going to be is, is really dangerous to all of us.

NK: Why do you think that, that there is that trend, as you see it, across the country?

RW: You know, I think it is part of a kind of political overreach that we're seeing where an idea that, you know, we can direct how things will go in universities, and, and that that will then produce the kind of economy that we want. But I think we're really skating on thin ice when we start thinking that we can do that.

NK: What are you hearing so far from, from teachers, but, but also students?

RW: Well, they're concerned, obviously. This is not entirely new, but it is alarming. This kind of interference goes against the core defining mission of universities. So, it, it is, it's extremely concerning. It leaves academics who've devoted their lives to particular research areas, or to teaching students to equip them in fields that they understand to be tremendously valuable and important. It leaves them, you know, wondering what the future is going to bring. So, there is, I think, understandable deep concern, but also determination to push back.

NK: And how will you push back? What are the plans at this early stage?

RW: We push back by being organized, by pressuring governments, you know, of course we would like to work with them. There are certainly, I think, important public pressures that can be brought.

NK: What would you want to say to Education Minister McGuire and Premier Houston?

RW: You know, we know that Canadians really value public post-secondary education. We would like you to start valuing it in the same way. That means ensuring that Nova Scotians, that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, Ontarians, everyone across, in every provincial government needs to hear this. It means ensuring that the, the students in your province have access to education they can afford that allows them to study the things they want to study without having that dictated by government.

NK: Robin, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RW: Thank you. Any time.

CH: Robin Whitaker is the vice president of the Canadian Association of University Teachers. She's also a professor in the department of anthropology at Memorial University in Newfoundland and Labrador. She was in St. John's. We also contacted Nova Scotia's Ministry of Advanced Education -- and are hoping to speak with someone from the ministry, next week.

[wistful instrumental]

LGBT Immigration Help

Guest: Adrienne Smith

CH: A few months ago, the phones at Adrienne Smith's office started ringing more often. And these days, they never stop ringing. Ms. Smith runs a law firm in Toronto focused on 2SLGBTQ+ immigration. And lately, she's seen a massive surge in inquiries from American citizens hoping to move to Canada. That surge is directly related to statements and orders the Trump Administration has been rolling out, which openly target trans people -- for example, the announcement that the US will, quote, "recognize two sexes, male and female", unquote; and the move to bar trans people from the military. Many Republican-led states are following suit. Just yesterday, Iowa lawmakers passed a bill that would end state civil rights protections for transgender people. So, as you can imagine, calls to Adrienne Smith are getting increasingly desperate. We reached her today in Toronto.

NK: Adrienne, on average, how many calls are you getting from people in the U.S.?

ADRIENNE SMITH: I'm getting on average, since President Trump came into power about a month ago, it's been a steady increase. And usually, ranging anywhere from five to 10 inquiries a day.

NK: And before that, would you be getting any?

AS: We weren't. I mean, there was always interest in immigration to Canada. But it was, you know, generally for individuals who had Canadian partners, or, you know, they were going to work for a Canadian company. So, we would have, you know, the odds inquiry. Let's say on a weekly basis, we would have one or two people contacting us. But it's the, the profile of the person who's contacting us now that we've never experienced before.

NK: Did you get any calls today?

AS: Today, we've had, well, I woke up, pretty much every day, I wake up and I check my email, and there's usually a few emails that have been sent overnight. So far, no calls, but I would be surprised if we went the entire day without one.

NK: And could you give us a sense of maybe what one of those emails said, or one of those, those phone calls?

AS: Yeah. I mean, a lot of the emails that I'm getting are people that are really scared. They're, they're terrified. They're surprised by just how quickly their rights are being taken away. You know, they're looking for options as quickly as possible.

NK: And who are you hearing from?

AS: Primarily members of the trans community who have been directly impacted already by some of the executive orders that have been put into place by President Trump, things that have impacted their ability to obtain a passport in their correct gender. You know, concerns about not being able to receive gender affirming care.

NK: How do they convey in those emails the depth of, of, of what they're feeling?

AS: I mean, we can, when we get our, we pick up our voicemails and we listen to those voicemails, you can feel the desperation. And you can, you can feel that, you know, they, they just don't feel safe in their own country anymore.

NK: What kind of advice are you able to give people who are writing to you and calling your office?

AS: For right now, there isn't a, you know, specific pathway for American citizens beyond what already exists in Canada's immigration program. So, we have programs for individuals who want to apply for a work permit. We have a program for individuals to qualify for economic immigration based on their work experience, and their age, and their education. So, I'm looking at their profiles to see if they would meet the requirements for economic immigration. Other than that, I'm not recommending other pathways like seeking asylum or seeking refugee protection. I'm not yet recommending that pathway for those individuals.

NK: And people are asking for those pathways, it sounds like?

AS: Primarily that is what people are asking. They're asking to make a refugee claim. They're saying that they're fearful. That they don't want to live in the United States, in a country that isn't protecting their rights. Several people have contacted me who have already made a refugee claim and are looking for representation at the next stage.

NK: Can you imagine a point where you would be recommending refugee claims or asylum claims from people coming from the United States?

AS: A month ago, I would say no. And, in the future, it's, I'm in a wait and see situation. I'm not opposed to it yet. What I need to do is I need to monitor what's going to be happening at the individual state level. Because in order to meet the requirements to be found to be a refugee in Canada, refugees have to show that they're not safe in any part of their country.

NK: Advocates in this country have certainly been raising concerns about bills in this country and legislation tabled in this country. You know, in Alberta, for example, that's just, that's just one example. So, I wonder what, what you tell people on that front that, that they're imagining something here, and they may eventually see a different reality?

AS: Yeah. I mean, I think this is the fear that a lot of Canadians have right now, particularly Canadians that are from the LGBTQ community. When we can see our, the rights of our American neighbors being taken away so quickly, when you're from a vulnerable group, and you've lived through a time like I have where we didn't have the right to marry for many years, you have that kind of residual fear that the rights that were so hardly fought to be gained could be taken away. So, I take comfort in the fact that the, you know, the mainstream discussion from federal leaders hasn't yet seemed to go down the same route for taking away rights. But I think we do need to be vigilant.

NK: How are you and your staff dealing with just the volume of calls you've started to receive and emails, as you said? And also, the content, the emotional aspect of all of this?

AS: Yeah. I mean, it's been really hard, to be honest. It's, you feel really powerless. You want to be able to give people options. You know, you want to be able to help people. But, you know, we're at the point where we're getting so many inquiries that for some individuals, we aren't even able to respond. And, you know, it really does break your heart because you know that someone out there is waiting for a response from you. But we just haven't been able to keep up with the volume.

NK: We have listeners in the United States as well, and elsewhere, of course, for those who, who or maybe among those who've emailed, or are concerned, or thinking about this kind of decision, what would you want to say to them now?

AS: I mean, I think just to validate how they're feeling. Like, I can't imagine being in the shoes that they're in. And I think that, you know, other people may roll their eyes when they hear about American citizens wanting to move to Canada and make a refugee claim. But if they were to hear the voicemails that I'm hearing, I think that they would change their tune.

NK: Adrienne, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

AS: Thank you so much.

CH: Adrienne Smith is a lawyer specializing in 2SLGBTQ+ immigration cases. We reached her in Toronto.

[folk]

Alice Maitland Obit

CH: There aren't many mayors who would compare their public service to "smoking opium". But Alice Maitland meant it in a good way -- as in, doing work that helped her community was a kind of high for her. Ms. Maitland -- one of British Columbia's longest-serving, and most beloved mayors --has died at the age of 91. She was first elected to the council of the Village of Hazelton in 1965. In 1976, she was elected mayor. And she held that position until 2018. Along with the usual work of a mayoralty, Ms. Maitland also tried to showcase Hazelton's Indigenous history. And in 2020, she was recognized with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities' Ann MacLean award for Outstanding Service by a woman in municipal politics. And at the time, she talked to the CBC about what the award meant to her, and about the difficulties of being a woman in politics.

SOUNDCLIP

ALICE MAITLAND: The truth is that women who make the move to go into politics, or even as business managers, I guess, at any level, are still expected, I think, at least it was always expected of me that I would do all the things that mothers do. [chuckling] Like driving kids to games, and getting the lot to school and all of that kind of thing. And I think that they work harder. They work in a broader, in a broader world, actually. Because they know what makes the world go around, and that's being where you're needed. So, I think women are truly, truly amazing. I think that's what, what made me stay was I knew there were fights to fight, and I could fight them. It was a great time. I don't know what else I would have done with my life. [chuckling] And I, and I feel like being rewarded for being so happily engaged all those years is kind of, kind of strange.

CH: From 2020, that was the late Alice Maitland on the CBC's Daybreak North. Alice's daughter, Julie Maitland, was elected mayor of Hazelton in 2022. Here she is talking about her mother.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIE MAITLAND: I hear my mom, who, who I love, and who I'm going to miss so much. And she was an amazing woman. She was strong. And, yeah, I think she was a little mad sometimes at the men. [chuckling] But she also had so many good friends, and, and family, her brothers and her friends she made over the years at regional district, and sitting at the other table she was on. I think it just made her, like, one of the best mayors. And, you know, that open-mindedness was, I think, something that people liked about her. And she was kind, and, and so easy to speak to, and talk to. And, yeah, if she was, she didn't think she was, you know, she came out strong. And if she thought she was wrong, she would admit it and tell people that. And she was such an advocate for doing things right, and understanding that we needed to have things happen in our area.

CH: That was Julie Maitland talking about her mother, the late, longtime mayor of Hazelton, B.C., Alice Maitland.

[electronic]

SOD: GOvernment Takeover Song

CH: The past 41 years of the Trump administration have -- pardon? It's been five weeks? Oh. Okay. The past five weeks of the Trump administration have many Americans feeling anxious. You might be wondering how I know that. Well, aside from the people who have told us as much on this show, there's a TikTok that really makes it clear:

SOUNDCLIP

TODD: [singing and snapping fingers] We're in the middle of a hostile government takeover. I want to talk about it, but I'll be late for work. And if you're saying, wait a minute. Who we have to stop this? We have one. But you didn't want a lady in the office. Now that we're a part of a Nigerian prince scam. Surprise, surprise, it end up in a white man. Oh, I just want to know, what the hell do I do? Probably drink.

CH: That is our Sound of the Day: @AGiftFromTodd on TikTok, singing a song about how he feels under the Trump administration. An extremely catchy display of political and existential unease! So catchy that it's been stuck in my head for days -- and it’s got over six million views so far. It has also inspired quite a few duets and remixes. Musician Vinny Marchi put his spin on it, in an EDM remix that's hit Number One on iTunes, and is doing numbers on the Billboard charts. Here it is now: AGiftFromTodd and Vinny Marchi with "Hostile Government Takeover (EDM Remix)."

[the song from above, but it’s an EDM remix now]

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The AIH Transcript For February 28, 2024

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