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The Current Transcript for February 27, 2025

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Does Donald Trump want to steal our critical minerals? That's to take them without paying a fair market price, without actually having a consensual contractual relationship.

MATT GALLOWAY: Critical minerals. As the name suggests, they are not just rare, but also essential for everything from car batteries to cell phones. Ukraine may trade access to them for security guarantees. Donald Trump wants to buy Greenland to get Ahold of them. And Canada has plenty in the north. In an hour, what exactly the global scramble for these minerals is about and where that leaves this country. Also this morning, photography is an act of conservation. Meet the Alberta wildlife photographer whose images of foxes, grizzly bears and owls are helping to preserve the boreal forest. Plus.

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HALEY MLOTEK: There's often a moral panic around divorce. And it really leads back to this idea that there's some sort of threat coming for the integral concept of the nuclear family.

MG: The Montreal writer Haley Mlotek grew up in a family surrounded by divorce. Her mother was a counsellor, her grandmother twice got divorced and remarried, and eventually, she herself pulled the plug on her marriage. Her new book looks at the history of divorce, the freedom that no-fault laws introduced, and why some believe it is still too easy to get. In 30 minutes, what we learn about the institution of marriage when it ends. But we begin with the snowbirds getting out of sunny Florida because of Donald Trump. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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SNOWBIRDS

Guests: Laurie Fischer, Richard Clavet, Stacy Ritter

MG: And now, the weather forecast. The temperature in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, this morning is a mostly sunny 24 degrees. Meanwhile, much of eastern Canada is heading into another deep freeze this weekend, and so you could understand why some people would flee south if they could. And yet, things are tense between Canada and the United States right now. Canadians are frustrated over Donald Trump's threats of crippling tariffs and annexation. And one of the places where those feelings are coming to a head is Florida. That's where hundreds of thousands of Canadians go to escape winter. But now, some of those snowbirds are saying they have had enough of the state. Laurie Fischer has owned a condo there for years. He decided to sell it this winter. He's in Clearwater, Florida, where he's spending a few more weeks before he says goodbye for good. Laurie, good morning.

LAURIE FISCHER: Good morning. How are you this morning?

MG: I’m well. You're in Florida, so it's warmer than where I am. How long have you been going south in the winter?

LAURIE FISCHER: Well, I'm 70 years old now, and I've been coming here since I was about five or six years old. My parents moved into this complex in 1980, and I bought into their condo in 2005. So I've actually owned for 20 years, but Basically have been coming all of my life. It's been like a second home to me.

MG: I was going to say, I mean, you have a deep attachment to that state and life down there.

LAURIE FISCHER: Very much so. I've loved coming here for many, many years. And it's gotten tougher, you know, primarily because of the weakened Canadian dollar.

MG: Sure.

LAURIE FISCHER: You know, the cost of upkeep of our condo is over $20,000 a year. And that's basically as the dollar gets weaker, it gets more expensive. And we're using it five, six months of the year, but we pay taxes year round. Travel insurance as I get older is very expensive. Our HOA fees are jumping up. So again, it's just getting very expensive to live here.

MG: How much does politics have to do with the fact that you're getting out of Florida as well?

LAURIE FISCHER: Oh, I think next to the weakened Canadian dollar, I think the political rhetoric, the uncertainty, the divisiveness has really grown down here. I mean, I've been coming all of my life, and I've just noticed, especially in the last I would say two, three, four years, it's getting very, I think very tense. Not so much against snowbirds. I think the whole attitude towards immigrants has really deepened. And it's just, I would say it's uncomfortable.

MG: I mean, you must have close friends down there that are American. Do you talk politics with them?

LAURIE FISCHER: You know, it's funny you say that, Matt. Basically, my wife and I have very close friends here, lifelong friends down here. And we said, look, we love you. We're always going to love you, but let's not talk politics. And most of our very close friends don't bother. We are in a Republican area. So many, many people down here believe in Trump. I think I've run into a lot of people that are, that voted for him and are regretting it because of the political rhetoric that is coming out on a daily basis. Most people down here just think it's an absolute joke what he says about Canada because they do love Canadians down here. But since we've sold, I've given my very good real estate at least three or four leads. People have come up to me, asked me about my real estate transactions, and they're leaving. There are a lot of people leaving. It's just because of what's going on.

MG: Have you been on the sharp end of any, you know, feelings from Americans down there when they find out that you're Canadian? I think of, you know, Canadians booing the US anthem, beating up on the American hockey team, for example. How does that go?

LAURIE FISCHER: Oh, it definitely. You know, I sing the national anthems down here each month to about 200 people. And last month, I said, you know, I was disheartened by hearing Canadians booing the American and the Americans booing the Canadian national anthem. I said, look, politicians come and go, but the friendship between the two countries is going to remain. And I really believe that the rhetoric will die down once you know who. I tend to call him the orange fluff. You know, I don't know what's going to happen, but I did have one incident. Most people, I wear a hat right now that says Canada is not for sale.

MG: Sure.

LAURIE FISCHER: It has a Canadian flag on it, and most Americans absolutely love it. I had one incident where I was walking one of my puppies, I guess about two weeks ago, and these two older ladies came up to me and frowned at me. They were walking the other way and they said, are you one of those Canadians that's leaving? And I said, yes. As a matter of fact, I am. They said, well, you're leaving at the wrong time because we're going to make America great again, and Biden messed up the whole thing, and Donald Trump is going to save us. And, you know, when you get into a situation like that, the best thing to do is smile, have a good day and walk away. And that's exactly what I did.

MG: It's a big decision to sell a place that you've been down at, going to for that long. I mean, as you said, presidents come and go and administrations come and go. Do you worry that you're acting a bit too rashly?

LAURIE FISCHER: I am sorry, I missed the last part of the question.

MG: Do you worry that you're making a decision that you might regret down the road?

LAURIE FISCHER: No. I think there's a variety of reasons that we've made the decision. My wife and I have had serious discussions for a couple of years. As I mentioned, the Canadian dollar, the political rhetoric. My health is not the best. And, you know, the health care down here is not what it is back home. You know, there's all sorts of considerations. I would never say never that we're never going to come back. But I think for now, we've made the right decision. Now, would I say that I'm completely happy? No, I'm very sad. I'm leaving some very close friends and a situation that I've grown to love. As I said, Florida has been a second home to me and I love it down here. I absolutely love it. So I know that when it comes to the last week, I will be very sad. You know, it's going to be very difficult because a lot of the things that I'm doing are for the last time. I've done them for years. A lot of the people that I'm seeing will be for the last time. They're getting, they're even older than I am, and you know that you're saying goodbye for good. So yeah, it's going to be very difficult, but I think my wife and I are very happy with the decision. I think our kids, well, I should say our young adults understand it fully, and we just decided now is the best time. And in retrospect, after the sale, with what's going on, there was no doubt we've made the right decision, as we see more and more condos down here going up for sale and more and more Canadians are leaving. And also, many of our friends who come down to Florida every year are just not coming down anymore. They've just decided it's just not worth it at this point.

MG: Laurie, it's really good to talk to you. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

LAURIE FISCHER: Well, thank you for your time.

MG: Laurie Fischer is a Manitoban who winters in Florida. We reached him in Clearwater, Florida. It's not just snowbirds. Lots of Canadians are cancelling vacations to Florida. Richard Clavet owns Richard's Motel and other lodgings in Hollywood, Florida, which is about halfway between Fort Lauderdale and Miami. He's originally from Quebec. He's a dual citizen. Richard, good morning to you.

RICHARD CLAVET: Good morning.

MG: What are you hearing from Canadians who have decided not to come and stay with you this year because of the political environment?

RICHARD CLAVET: Well, there's a few, few, less reservation this year. And obviously, it's about this. There's one guy that I found out that he abandoned his deposit and choose not to come this way for that particular reason. And to my surprise, he went to Cuba instead.

MG: How much was his deposit?

RICHARD CLAVET: Like about $1,000.

MG: $1,000. That's a lot of money to leave on the table.

RICHARD CLAVET: Yeah, that's like, that was amazing. He later told us because Trump's policies, he decided not to come this year, and he had no problem to abandon his deposit and choose to go to Cuba.

MG: What do you say to people who are staying away in protest because they don't like the policies of the US president?

RICHARD CLAVET: It's their bad. It's just like, I don't know. It's still sunny, still beautiful weather. It’s perfect. It's just like last night, I was at an event, and there were like about 350 Canadians enjoying a Canadian performer, mostly from Quebec. And actually, I was with a couple from Ontario, and they all had a great time. Everything was beautiful.

MG: You’ve called your community Little Quebec. And I mean, there are a lot of people from Quebec who come down there. There are Quebec magazines. You have a poutine food truck, which I could imagine is a taste of home as well. Do people talk politics down there?

RICHARD CLAVET: Not much. It's just like, I would say like even like on my side, my family, my children, no one really, no one really talks about what's going on with those tariffs that Trump is talking about imposing. It’s just like it's very minimal.

MG: What about for you? You are an American citizen. You voted for Donald Trump. Is that right?

RICHARD CLAVET: Oh, yes.

MG: Yeah. But you're also a Canadian too. I mean, how do you feel about how he's acting towards this country? He's talking about us becoming the 51st state. He's talking about these tariffs that might destroy the Canadian economy. How does that strike you?

RICHARD CLAVET: I think the tariffs are only imposed on Americans that buy Canadian goods. And technically, tariffs are penalties basically to the people that get Canadian by paying more. So that's like kind of self inflicting penalty that should not bother Canadians that much about those tariffs.

MG: The Canadian economy, people are talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost because of these tariffs. And I mean, there will be a real impact.

RICHARD CLAVET: The jobs are going to be lost only if people stop buying. But Americans are going to keep on buying. It doesn't matter if there's tariff or not. I think it happened on the first Trump term. He had tariff on the wood, I think on the aluminum and stuff like that. And all those companies in Canada were selling more than ever at that time because the economy was great.

MG: So you don't feel any divided loyalties, if I can put it that way, between Canada and the United States.

RICHARD CLAVET: No, not really. I think the tariff that he might impose, it might impose on the condition with more like, hey, let's clean our backyards. Let's make sure that our countries are drug free, that there's no drugs coming in from Vancouver or from the east side, or let's keep our country clean and safe so there's no drugs going across and affecting our communities. But hey, guys, if you don't do that, I'm going to penalize the Americans by charging them 25% on all the goods from Canada, which to me is kind of a little selfish because he's really punishing Americans, not Canadians.

MG: You spoke with a CBC reporter a few days ago, and on your business Facebook page, there were a bunch of angry comments from people who were upset by some of the things you said. They were saying, the commenters, this Canadian would not stay at your place if it was the last place on earth. Some of the people said, enjoy your Trumpian bankruptcy, and that Trump supporters deserve to see their businesses go under. Does that kind of stuff bother you when you hear that from Canadian customers?

RICHARD CLAVET: It does bother me a lot, but I guess I respect their way of thinking. But I have my own way of thinking as well. And if you… I heard one Canadian here that he was wondering, you know, about, you know, why? Why did people vote for Trump? The great majority of Americans voted for Trump. They wanted Trump. They're happy with him. They're happy with everything that is going on right now. He's making things good and great again. It's just like when you look at what's going on on the Canadian side, is they want to self inflict themselves with tariffs on their side as well. That to me is just like, wow, that's going to be terrible for Canada if you self-punish yourself.

MG: I have to let you go, but do you worry that your business is going to take a permanent hit because of what's going on? Or do you think this will bounce back?

RICHARD CLAVET: Not at all. It's just we’re going to fill up with the Americans if there's some gaps. But what I see here is all the Canadians that I have here don't talk about politics much. They all enjoy the place. They go and have a good time. Next year, you're going to have minus 40 degrees in the wintertime and things are going to calm down. Things are going to be greater and more beautiful here and people are going to keep on coming back.

MG: Richard, it's good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

RICHARD CLAVET: Thank you.

MG: Richard Clavet is the owner of Richard's motel lodgings. He's in Hollywood, Florida. There are some people in the tourism sector of that state that are far more concerned than Richard would be about Canadians staying away. Stacy Ritter is the CEO of Visit Lauderdale. It's the tourism board for Broward County. Stacy, good morning to you.

STACY RITTER: Good morning. I'm not sure how good this interview is going to be. I'm kind of speechless about your last guest.

MG: Okay. So what struck you that would leave you speechless?

STACY RITTER: Gosh, I'm not quite sure where to start. First of all, I would take issue with the fact that most Americans are happy with what's going on here. I mean, if you look at poll numbers, Trump is underwater. But I didn't really come on to talk about Trump specifically, but tourism and how it might impact tourism.

MG: So tell me more about that. Anecdotally, you will hear from Canadians who say, I'm not going to the United States. We're going to go to Mexico or Cuba or to the Dominican Republic instead. What are you hearing from Canadians who have decided not to come to Florida this winter?

STACY RITTER: Well, I started to get emails. I mean, I've lived here for 50 years in Fort Lauderdale, and, you know, winter's not winter without the beloved snowbirds from our northern ally and our greatest friend, Canada. So we're hoping it's not different. But I have started to receive emails from Canadians who say they're never coming back here or they're not coming back here for at least four years until things change.

MG: You've said that getting those emails was a gut punch.

STACY RITTER: It is. As I said, I've lived here for so long, and seeing Canadian license plates in the winter is just part of the fabric of the community here. And, you know, my community hasn't changed. I would say to your guest in Clearwater, Come to Southeast Florida because we're not that. We are completely different. We are a diverse community. I live in Broward County. Two million people live here. 170 nations are represented by those two million people speaking 148 languages. Our tagline is everyone under the sun, because we welcome everyone under the sun here, and we will continue to do so. We're not changing. No matter what happens, we are not changing.

MG: How big of a hit do you think this is for your industry? According to the US Travel Association, a 10%, just a 10% reduction in Canadian travel could mean two million fewer visits, $2.1 billion in lost spending, and 14,000 jobs in the United States. And Florida would be the hardest hit, given the fact that Canadians go down there more than any other state.

STACY RITTER: Absolutely. Which is why I'm speechless when someone says it's not going to have an impact or it shouldn't have an impact or they don't talk politics. I mean, this has been a conversation that has consumed us for the past three months. What are we going to do? How are we going to market ourselves?

MG: How do you market yourselves in the face of that, in the face of a president who says that Canada isn't a real country, and that we could just erase a border and become part of the United States, and that would be better for everyone. How do you market yourself to Canadians who might be offended by that?

STACY RITTER: Well, as I said, we are who we are. We are everyone under the sun, and we're not changing. We have pushed back on the cultural war agenda for a very long time in part because it's the right thing to do, but also the economics. I mean, we are, tourism is our number one industry here in Broward County. We saw five years ago during the pandemic when tourists stopped coming people lose their jobs. And for us, well, our mission is to bring people here to visit and experience as our calling is to keep them employed. And so marketing and promoting this destination so that people can work and put food on the table and have dignity and respect from that work is the number one priority for us. So we will continue to market and promote ourselves as an open, welcome community. When you come here, you will see open hearts and open minds. We firmly believe and always will that travel changes people's perspectives. When Canadians come here, they see Americans who are friendly and welcoming, who want them here, who want their business, who want to be friends with them. And that's going to continue here in Broward County. We aren't going to change.

MG: Let me ask you. We just have a minute and a half or so, so let me ask you a couple of quick things. One is, I mean, Americans are diverse and people have all sorts of different opinions, but there are many Canadians who are exercised by what's going on and outraged by what's happening in the United States. Is your sense that Americans are paying attention to the outrage coming from the north?

STACY RITTER: Oh, absolutely.

MG: Really?

STACY RITTER: We are. Absolutely. Oh yeah. Certainly, my circle is. But we are, you know, we tend to pay attention, and we tend to critically think about what's going on and try to play it like a chess game. Like what's the next move and what's the next two moves and three moves and four moves, and how are we going to counteract what is happening? Absolutely. We do that.

MG: It's almost March break. And so what would you say to Canadians who are on the fence about coming to Florida right now? They're tired of, you know, minus whatever temperatures and this mountain of snow that's in front of their house, but they're worried about all the things we're talking about. What would you say to them?

STACY RITTER: Yes. But if you've been here before, if you've been to the Fort Lauderdale area before, if you've been to Hollywood or any of the cities in Broward County, you know who we are. We are the same people we have always been. And as I sit in my backyard looking out at my boat and the water with what will be a 75-degree Fahrenheit day, there is not a cloud in the sky.

MG: You have to stop. You're hurting me now.

STACY RITTER: We're the same people. We will welcome you. We want you to come here. We are your friends. We are your neighbours. We are your greatest ally. And for us, for us here in Broward County, that's not changing.

MG: Stacy, good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

STACY RITTER: Thank you.

MG: Stacy Ritter is the CEO of Visit Lauderdale. She was in, as you heard, Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Are you rethinking your travel plans? Are you thinking, you know what, I'm not going to go to the United States now or perhaps for the next four years? Or are you willing to, as Stacy said, see that there are many different kinds of Americans and that a government perhaps does not represent all of its people? Let us know. You can email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your CBC news is next, and then…

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HALEY MLOTEK: We've all observed that there's no white picket fence for anybody, and that everybody is building the life that they want in the same moment that they're learning what it is that they want.

MG: After 12 years with her boyfriend, 11 months of marriage, Haley Mlotek realized this was not what she wanted. We're going to speak about the arrival of no-fault divorce and what exactly this did in terms of changing people's options and the ability to create a new life for themselves. That's coming up in six minutes here on The Current. Stay with us.

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DIVORCE

Guest: Haley Mlotek

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. Some kids fear divorce, but not Haley Mlotek. She grew up surrounded by it. Her grandmother was twice divorced. Her mother was a divorce mediator. One of her favourite movies was even about divorce.

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[movie clip]

SPEAKER: Yeah. There. There. There. There. I love you.

SPEAKER: I want a divorce.

SPEAKER: But we just made love. I mean, you asked me out.

SPEAKER: I asked you out to tell you, but then you looked so great and I thought, jees, how romantic, you know, one last time, the goodbye kiss.

SPEAKER: But this wasn't just a kiss.

SPEAKER: Don’t be childish. You know how you manipulate me.

SPEAKER: What?

MG: That’s a taste of the movie “The First Wives Club.” Haley grew up and married her boyfriend of 12 years, then 11 months later went through her own divorce, which challenged everything she thought she understood about marriage and divorce. She has written about this in her book, “No Fault: A Memoir of Romance and Divorce”, and she is with me in studio. Haley, good morning.

HALEY MLOTEK: Good morning.

MG: Congratulations on this book. As I was saying to you when I came in, I keep reading about it everywhere, which is great.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes, we love to see that.

MG: Before I even read the book. You watch this when you're eight years old?

HALEY MLOTEK: I think 10.

MG: 10.

HALEY MLOTEK: I just looked up what year it came out.

MG: Okay.

HALEY MLOTEK: So I must have been 10. Still probably too young.

MG: I was going to say what 10-year-old likes The First Wives Club?

HALEY MLOTEK: It was me, me and my sisters. We loved it. We were hooting and hollering at it, and we wanted to rent it from blockbuster as often as our parents would let us. Anytime it was on like TBS, we would stop everything to watch it. We just loved it.

MG: What did you love about it?

HALEY MLOTEK: I think we loved the slapstick nature of it. Like it is very much a satire and it's very exaggerated, but there is a real honesty to it. It has a wide range of emotional moments. You know, I just screened it live at Metrograph in New York City. And it was so amazing to watch it with a packed house of people, some of whom were seeing it for like many times over or for the first time. And, you know, it starts with, it's not a spoiler, but it starts with a suicide. It's quite deep and dark, and it's very much about women and friendships and solidarity. My friend, the writer Rachel Handler, did a brilliant introduction of it where she posited that it's actually a Marxist critique of post-divorce life, which I think is exactly right.

MG: You grew up with divorce kind of around you, right? Is that fair to say?

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes, very much so.

MG: What does that mean? I mean, for me to say that says one thing, but what does that mean to you?

HALEY MLOTEK: My mother is a divorce and family mediator. When I was growing up, she worked out of our family basement. And that was my first job, answering her phones, you know, like probably around 12. Hi, you want a divorce? Helping with the parenting plans, just like basic administrative work. My grandmother was also divorced twice in an era when that was pretty uncommon for women. And sometimes, she would start sentences by saying, you know, well, with my husbands, plural, which as a 10-year-old watching “The First Wives Club” I thought was very glamorous. And then of course, now, I have written this book about divorce. So in many ways, with many different interpretations, divorce is really our family business.

MG: What did you learn about marriage in answering the phones for your mom?

HALEY MLOTEK: What did I learn? Well, I mean, I will say, you know, I didn't have much access to any personal information or anything private.

MG: But you’re kind of around in that atmosphere, right?

HALEY MLOTEK: It was very light in the aura of the home. And I think, you know, I write in the book that I definitely recognized that it was unusual. My other friends’ parents, they worked in offices or in stores, and they didn't have other people's lives as the backdrop to their own. But it didn't seem completely unlike, you know, my friends who their parents were teachers or therapists. I'm often asked if that influenced my own experience of divorce, and I think of course it did. But I would have no way of knowing because there's no, you know, controlled group of me who could have compared it to what it would have been like without it.

MG: What did you learn from your parents’ marriage?

HALEY MLOTEK: I think I really learned the importance of supporting each other. I was very, very lucky to grow up in a home where both my parents felt that reading and writing were two of the greatest things that I could do. I have other friends who are journalists and writers, and their parents have often very wisely warned them about the economic conditions of journalism, which, you know, we know it's very real. It is a very hard industry to work in, but they never made me feel like it was something that was insurmountable or something that I shouldn't pursue. My mother took me to the library as often as I wanted, and my father subscribed to every newspaper. And so I think that type of environment where, you know, my sisters and I were always encouraged to pursue what it was we wanted no matter what realities said about it made more things possible for all of us.

MG: You mentioned your grandmother.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes.

MG: And the fact that she was married and divorced twice.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes.

MG: And referred to her husbands.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes.

MG: What does that do to you as you're growing up? I mean, it sounds glamorous, but…

HALEY MLOTEK: Such glamour. Yes. I think that was probably my first introduction to a certain type of glamour that I think is applied to divorcees, particularly divorced women. There's especially in pop culture or in literature, there's a sense that there's something about divorce that perhaps because it's so taboo or because it does still have some stigma attached to it, on the opposite side, it must mean that there's some sort of strength or some sort of lack of caring that would allow you to be able to overcome that in order to live the life that you want. We also, you know, I often go back to the example of the first season of “Madman”, where there's a divorced woman that moves into the neighbourhood and just destabilizes everything. Nobody knows how to act anymore. And I think that's, you know, that's an exaggeration as well, but it does speak to some truth about the assumptions that people made in your post-divorce life.

MG: What kind of assumptions did you have when you got married?

HALEY MLOTEK: My marriage…

MG: And the way that you, I mean, the way that you write about yourself in the book is really interesting because there's specifics, but not specifics at the same time, if that makes sense.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes. Yes. Well, yeah, the book is called “No Fault.” And it's very much about the colloquial term for a marriage that is dissolved without having any one person have to be responsible for it. And I did want that to be reflected in the writing. I understand that when one writes a memoir about divorce, hypothetically, the expectation is that you will lay everything out about why the divorce happened and how it happened.

MG: And perhaps skewer the other person.

HALEY MLOTEK: Oh, for sure. Yeah. You know, in the absence of doing it in the legal system, why not do it in a book? But that is absolutely not what I was interested in, and certainly not the type of thing that I like to read. There are so many wonderful divorce memoirs and literature about divorce that have come out recently. And I think something that we all have in common is a certain amount of opaqueness around the details, because yes, they’re personal, they’re private, but also, they don't really say anything about the experience of being divorced in a way that translates to the reader. I think there is much more space given when you speak about it from like a little bit of a distance to explain how you came to understand these things without necessarily going into the minutia of it.

MG: You talked about the stigma. I mean, did you feel, when you got divorced, these are weird personal questions. Did you feel that stigma that exists, I mean, in terms of talking to people about this, saying our relationship is ending?

HALEY MLOTEK: Oh, absolutely. And in the book, it is loosely following the year of my life when I didn't want to tell people at all when I was separated. And I knew that I was definitely to be divorced, but I just didn't feel ready. I felt like I couldn't face not even anything specific, but just the fear that somebody would say something that I couldn't handle in that moment, because marriage is a very public thing. I think there are many types of breakups that don't get the same gravity we give to divorce that can have just as much of an impact on people's lives and families. But the fact of being married and having a wedding, you know, the government knows something about you. Your closest friends and family know something about you. And now, you have to make a quite public declaration that now, they have to know something different. And that's very difficult, I think, for everybody.

MG: There's that idea, though, that, as you've said, there's got to be an aggrieved party. There has to be some sort of degree of injury in a divorce. And you write that you didn't really know in some ways why your marriage ended. Do you think other people understand that? When people's marriage ends, do they? Some people might, but do most people understand why this thing isn't happening anymore?

HALEY MLOTEK: I think many people do. And I definitely don't want to, you know, imply that there aren't marriages or divorces where it isn't more one person's fault than the other, because there are very serious instances of different types of abuse or adultery that are absolutely, you know, unacceptable. And in that case, it's not a skewering to tell what happened to you. It is just the consequence of somebody else's actions. And it's very important to tell those stories as well. But for most people living in the times that we live in where we have this very romantic idea of divorce, romantic in the sense that it implies that if one marriage didn't work, another one in the future might, that's quite different from how marriage has been understood historically as more of a very practical partnership. And so I think the element of being able to try again lends itself very well to a narrative where, you know, perhaps people feel like they might have to explain before they try again why they can be trusted with the institution of marriage a second time around.

MG: What's that Samuel Johnson quote? A second marriage is the experience of triumph, of the triumph of hope over experience.

HALEY MLOTEK: Exactly. Exactly. He gets it.

MG: People often look at divorce as a safety valve, you say in the book. What does that mean? How was it seen before?

HALEY MLOTEK: Before no-fault divorce, it was certainly accessible, but not very available. It was something that was, you know, in Canada, you needed to get an order of Parliament in order to receive it. And in the States, one of the research facts that I love is that there are often instances documented of couples agreeing with each other that one person would just stand in front of the judge and say it was their fault so that they could get a divorce. And so divorce rates were stable, but perjury rates flourished, which I think is very funny. But it was something that required a certain amount of struggle just to prove that you deserved this privilege of being able to go your separate ways. And I don't think it's necessarily that different now. It's just more that the assumptions are really rooted in the idea that if divorce is going to be so messy emotionally, it should be made very clean legally.

MG: What do we know about divorce rates now? I mean, again, the anecdotal evidence is, well, it's 50%. But people argue that constantly as well. You say that in some ways, divorce is like a zombie movie where the zombies are coming toward us.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes. Yes. And there's often a moral panic around divorce. I think, you know, respectfully, the media loves to tell stories about what's happening to the family. And we see it reflected in our films, in our books, as you say, in our anecdotal conversations. And it really leads back to this idea that there's some sort of threat coming for the integral concept of the nuclear family. And the concept of the nuclear family is ahistorical. It's really like a blip in our shared collective consciousness, but it holds such a sway over people's ideals over what it should be. There's a very beautiful quote that I include in the book, with one of the researchers explaining that when people express sadness that things aren't the way they used to be, that's a safe way of saying that they're not happy with the times they live in, that it's so much easier to buy into this idea of false nostalgia rather than admit that our systems have always been flawed, and everybody is always trying to figure out the best way to live.

MG: What does that idea of no fault mean to you now? I mean, it's defined in law, but it goes beyond that as well.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes, absolutely. I think it's critical. In many ways, it is. And this is, you know, a complicated way of describing it, but it is a uniquely feminist part of the law. In many ways, no-fault divorce is designed for women and wives to be able to leave marriages as easily as men used to be able to.

MG: And as you say in the book, I mean, those who are old enough to have lived through an era where no-fault didn't exist know the difference between the two.

HALEY MLOTEK: Absolutely. Yeah.

MG: And they know the freedom that comes with no-fault, that you can stand up and say for no reason other than choice, the marriage ends.

HALEY MLOTEK: Absolutely. And, you know, of course, there's still like the court of public opinion that matters very much. And I don't want to say that the social graces that come with going through a divorce aren't as difficult, but the prospect of going through the whole theatre of the law in order to confirm that you deserve to again organize your life the way you want to or take care of your family the way you know is best, it's an immense right that I think should be granted to everybody.

MG: Do you think it's a right that is as firm as concrete, or can it be broken up like the sidewalk?

HALEY MLOTEK: Oh, absolutely. No, no, it's not firm at all. Like any of our rights, it is very hard won and needs to be fought for every day.

MG: The vice president, J.D. Vance, spoke in, when was it, 2021, and made a speech in which he talked about how society has run, in his words, this real time experiment, and that people shift spouses like they change their underwear.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yeah.

MG: He's the vice president now. When you hear that, what does that say to you?

HALEY MLOTEK: Well, in the book, I do write quite a bit about the fact that it's very common for fascist governments to go after the family when they first take power. Divorce is often a target for those types of totalitarian governments in history. And it's not, it's not a coincidence that this government that we're seeing in the United States is doing something similar. There is a great precedent for it that is a threat to all of us all around the world.

MG: You see this, and not just that language, but movements like that, as people reacting to what they would see as a threat to the nuclear family?

HALEY MLOTEK: Absolutely. And I think it's really important to remember how connected all of us are in this world. And, you know, right now in the United States, we're seeing specifically this, like just atrocious attack on transgender people and undocumented people, incarcerated people, the Palestinian people. And all of that is an attempt to delegitimize a certain type of family and to create the impression that one type of human life matters more than the other. And that is, you know, I can't think of anything more evil. I certainly don't know what the answer is, but I know that the greatest tool at our disposal to prevent that and to fight that is solidarity and to recognize how much we need each other.

MG: Should we take that for granted here in this country?

HALEY MLOTEK: Absolutely not. Never. Not for a second. It can happen anywhere. I think it is, it is a very effective way of creating fear and consolidating power. There's a wonderful researcher in the book that I cite, Phyllis Rowse, who says that the family is the smallest political unit that most people will ever be a part of. And it's very true. It's intimately tied to our experience of being a citizen in the world. And the way we shape our families is as political, if not more so, as anything else.

MG: I mean, this is a book about divorce, but it's also a book about marriage, right, and how we think about marriage now. The understanding from a lot of people is that fewer people are getting married now. How should we think about marriage in 2025?

HALEY MLOTEK: Well, I think something that's interesting is that perhaps fewer people are getting married. But all of the only thing that tells us is that that's what the government knows about people's relationships. Rates of cohabitation aren't changing very much. People are co-parenting and finding lots of different ways to have romantic relationships or platonic relationships while raising families. We shouldn't be so limited in perhaps the survey options that are given in demographic statistics to think about what marriage is. It really is just the license.

MG: Can you talk more about that? Because one of the things you say in the book is that contemporary marriage has never been pure romance.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes.

MG: I think that's the fairy tale, right?

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes.

MG: People get married because they love each other. And you say that it's about more than that. It's about social capital. It's social insurance in some ways. So tell me more about that and what marriage is now.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes, absolutely. One of the other books that I really loved was by Melinda Cooper, who writes a lot about how both neoconservative and neoliberal political movements both manipulate the family to their own ends. And, you know, okay, I will say this is something I have to look up because I'm not sure if it's totally true, but I live in Montreal, and somebody once told me that Montreal has the lowest rates of marriage in Canada. So let's, we’ll factcheck that. But when I heard that, it felt true because Montreal has still, fingers crossed, for a long time, very strong tenant rights, very strong protections for daycare, for health care.

MG: It's like in many ways, like the last affordable city.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes, exactly.

MG: Big city in Canada.

HALEY MLOTEK: So it's not that people are coupling less or having children less, but why would they need to get married if those things that we've been taught to think of privileges aren't held behind this like glass cage of marriage? And I think in like this current moment, there's a little bit too a taboo of talking about marriage as anything other than love. But the families and the couples that I see and I look up to I think are people who have made the very practical material elements of their life central to how they express their love for each other and how they take care of their children and how they split up doing the dishes or walking the dog. Those are all expressions of love too.

MG: What do you make of, and you didn't see this in your own family, clearly, but what do you make of the narrative that this, not this generation, but the generations of now? And it's not to put the spotlight back on what Vance said, but that they see divorce as too easy in some ways, that other generations just ground it out, and that it's not going to be, you know, sunshine and rainbows every day, but you just got to put your head down and deal with it, and that generations now are looking for that safety valve that I was talking about earlier.

HALEY MLOTEK: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think with those sorts of statements, it's really important to think about who benefits from saying something like that. And especially when we look at countries that don't have access to things like health care, or even here where it's becoming increasingly privatized, marriage is often considered a stopgap for the government services. You know, like I've certainly heard people say that when they've asked for health care in their jobs, they've been told by HR, well, can't you just get on your husband's plan or something? Which is so many assumptions in one. It really does speak to me to a sense that we are all alienated and isolated from each other and have to like, you know, kind of close rank to take care of each other when it should never be like that. It should be communal and neighbourhoodly and something that we all participate in together, not relegated to this very, you know, like this very tightly defined concept of husband and wife or spouse and spouse.

MG: I’d said at the beginning that, I mean, I keep reading about this book before I even started reading the book. What does that tell you about the appetite to talk more openly and honestly, not so much personally, but just honestly about what has become a facet of life?

HALEY MLOTEK: Yes. Well, I think it's like you say, the book is so much about marriage because you can't get divorced if you've never been married. And it is still a relatively recent experience that I think generationally, you know, I'm seeing many people my age start to go through it or even start to have second marriages or second relationships. But I think it really does reflect the need to see more types of families represented in the world, because I feel very strongly that we've all observed that there's no white picket fence for anybody and that everybody is building the life that they want in the same moment that they're learning what it is that they want. And so any sort of insight or guidance or even that sort of like gossipy voyeur feeling of being like, well, how did you do it, is really gratifying and really fortifying.

MG: Do people, I mean, this isn't a book that's filled with advice, any advice maybe. I'm not sure. But do people come to you now and do they say, what would you say if I were… Do you know what I mean?

HALEY MLOTEK: Oh, totally. I was just joking about this that I do often have people when I'm in a group setting, they'll turn to me and be like, well, Haley would know if we should break up. And I’m like, please don't put that on me. I don't know, I don't know anything. And I think that's so fascinating too that the assumption is that if you've been divorced, you would be perhaps more pro breakup than if you're still married.

MG: Maybe it's not so much about being pro breakup, but what would you, I mean, what would you want them to know?

HALEY MLOTEK: I would want to know that they're stronger than they think, and that it feels much better to be honest, even if that means saying I don't know. You know, I think there is a real push to make a decision and to just do something, to like get out or get in. But there's a real strength that comes from just sitting still and being honest about what you don't know.

MG: Can I ask you just finally, I mean, this is, and it's complicated, but if somebody that you know has split up, that they got divorced, what do you say? Do you say congratulations? Do you say I'm sorry? Like it's an awkward thing to say because if you say congratulations, it might say you're congratulating them on the end of something that they really cherish.

HALEY MLOTEK: Absolutely. I always say both. I say I'm sorry and congratulations just to cover all my bases.

MG: Congratulations on this book.

HALEY MLOTEK: Thank you so much.

MG: Haley Mlotek’s book is called “No Fault: A Memoir of Romance and Divorce.” She was here with me in studio. We did just factcheck that stat about Montreal. There aren't definitive numbers, but between 2016 and 2020, eight in every 1000 marriages in Quebec ended in divorce. If you have thoughts on how divorce has changed over time and how we think about divorce and how that's changed over time, you know how to get in touch with us. Email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up after your regional update, since taking office, US President Donald Trump has gone after Canada, Ukraine and Greenland. What do these three have in common? A rich, mostly untapped wealth of critical minerals. Coming up, what is a critical mineral and what can Canada do to leverage what we have here? Plus, trailing a family of foxes for weeks pays off for a Canadian nature photographer. Her photos are beautiful. We'll tell you about them coming up. I’m Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in just a minute and a half.

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CRITICAL MINERALS

Guests: Vince Beiser, Werner Antweiler

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy will be in Washington, DC, tomorrow to make a deal. At this point in the war with Russia, he wants security guarantees from US President Donald Trump. And in return, he is offering up a stake in that country's critical minerals, the kind that increasingly make this world go round, the ones in your cell phone and your laptop and your new electric car. China is already ahead of the game when it comes to controlling these resources, but the United States is hot on China's trail. And with a trade war looming, Canada's valuables are caught in their crosshairs. We'll talk more about that coming up in a few minutes. But first, what is a critical mineral? Vince Beiser is the author of “Power Metal: The Race for the Resources That Will Shape the Future.” Vince, good morning.

VINCE BEISER: Morning, Matt. How are you doing?

MG: I’m really well. Let's start with a definition. What is a critical mineral?

VINCE BEISER: So critical minerals, I mean, there's, they're basically the list of the metals that we need to, as you said, to build all this, the machinery of the world that we're moving into. So it's just, it's this list of, it's this basket of metals, things that folks have probably heard of like lithium, cobalt, nickel, copper that we need to manufacture solar panels, wind turbines, electric vehicles, batteries, the batteries that are in EVs and the batteries that are in all of our digital gadgets. It's this, they’re basically, the same basket of metals goes into all of those things. And as a result of that, there's a massive scramble all over the world for folks trying to get their hands on more and more of them and produce more and more of those metals.

MG: I mean, they really are ubiquitous, right? I was thinking, people are listening to us now. They might be listening to us through their phone, and that phone is powered by a battery that may be using critical minerals. They might be in an electric vehicle that has those batteries. I mean, they are increasingly necessary for our world.

VINCE BEISER: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and it's not only, it's not only electric vehicles. It's not only your digital gadgets. It's pretty much anything that runs without a plug these days. Your cordless drill, your electric toothbrush, pretty much anything that has a battery, you know, uses these metals. So yeah, they are absolutely the central thing for what I call the electro digital age. This era that we're moving into that's going to be defined by renewably generated electricity and digital technology can't make that stuff without critical metals.

MG: So we know that Canada has some, Ukraine obviously as well. Where are these things found?

VINCE BEISER: So they're found, you know, there's a long list of them, and they're found in many, many places all over the world. But there is this huge, because there's such a huge demand for them, countries and companies are scrambling to find them and produce more and more of them wherever they are. So, for instance, Indonesia has probably the world's biggest nickel deposits. And nickel is a critical Ingredient in batteries. And they've gone from almost nothing to becoming the world's biggest producer of nickel just in the last 20 years or so. And along the way, there's this terrible paradox because while we need these things, we need these, you know, we need renewable energy, and we need our digital tech in order to stave off climate change to save the planet. But at the same time, they're exacting a terrible cost on the planet. So in Indonesia, for instance, hundreds of miles of rainforest have been bulldozed to get at the nickel that's under the ground there.

MG: China, as I said in the introduction, seems to have a lead in terms of its control over these critical minerals. Is that fair to say?

VINCE BEISER: Oh, that's an understatement, if anything. Basically, every single one of these metals that we're talking about, China has a dominating position in the entire supply chain.

MG: How did it get the edge?

VINCE BEISER: Well, it was sort of a combination of a couple of things. One is the United States and Canada, which both used to be, I mean, the United States used to be the world's number one mining power for a long time, that long about the 70s and 80s. They basically got tired of all the environmental damage that came along with it. I mean, mining is very, you know, destructive. It creates a lot of, generates a lot of pollution and so on. And so as part of the whole shift to shift heavy industries to offshore heavy industries, they basically said, you know what, we don't want to do this stuff in our own backyard anymore. Let's let somebody else do it. And there was China, which was just opening up its economy at that time, which said, fine, we'll do it. We're happy to dig this stuff up on our own land and build the refineries in here in China. And also, they were just very foresighted. They have a lot, China has a lot of a particular subset of critical metals, this group of very obscure elements called rare earths. And back as far back as the 90s, Chinese leaders were saying the Middle East has oil, we have rare earths, and we're going to make sure that we are the ones who hold a dominant. We can see that these are going to be very important, and we're going to make sure that we're the ones who control the supply of this, this new resource.

MG: So we're not only just having the supply, but in controlling it and flexing and weaponizing it. How has China been able to do that? What has China been able to do in terms of, I guess, push ahead in a way that other countries wouldn't be able to?

VINCE BEISER: Yeah. So it's really not, it's not only the mining of this stuff. So China mines a lot of this stuff within their own borders. They've also bought up mines or pieces of mines all over the world, including here in Canada, that produce these metals. And no matter where this stuff comes out, comes out of the ground, most of it goes to China for processing, right, to take that raw material and turn it into pure copper, nickel or whatever it is. Then Chinese factories take those metals and turn them into most of the world's solar panels, wind turbines, electric vehicles and batteries. So again, this is all, you know, they saw this coming, and they very deliberately built out these industries to dominate these, these industries of the future. So that gives them enormous geopolitical leverage, which is a big, big concern because basically, they can, you know, they can cut off supplies of these things at any time. And they've already done that a couple of times.

MG: Speaks to why the US president, Donald Trump, would say, in his words, I want security of the rare earth. He's making this deal with Ukraine. He's trying to buy Greenland, which also has these minerals. What do you make of what the United States is doing in terms of it trying to get its meats on these minerals now?

VINCE BEISER: Yeah. Well, this has been, I mean, the United States has been doing this. And all Western countries, again, including Canada, have really been trying to build up their own supplies of these metals since, especially since 2010, which is the first time that China cut off supply of rare earths to Japan just for a few days. But it was enough to really freak out the Western world leaders and make them realize that China really has us over a barrel with this stuff. So in that sense, Trump is doing, he's sort of continuing what was US policy. He's just doing it, surprise, surprise, in a much cruder and sort of more blatantly transactional and exploitative and bullying kind of way.

MG: How much of a factor do you think those minerals are in what he's saying about Canada, talking about making Canada the 51st state, for example?

VINCE BEISER: I think it's definitely significant. I mean, you know, Canada has, you know, we've got all kinds of resources, but critical minerals are definitely high on the list. We do mine a lot of these things here in Canada. We have great big reserves of many of these metals that haven't been tapped yet. Also, Canada is a huge mining power all around the world. Canadian companies, you know, are some of the biggest involved in some of the biggest mines all over the world. So, you know, it's not surprising that, you know, that that would attract, you know, put a greedy little gleam in his eye.

MG: Is it possible to get these things out of the earth without destroying the planet? I mean, you've talked about the fact that nothing comes out of the ground without a cost. And whether it's in Ukraine, whether it's in China, whether it's the Chinese companies that are operating in Africa, whether it is in the north of Canada, there will be an impact on the local population in getting these out, particularly if that little local population is not the one that's benefiting from the resources itself. Is there a way to do it in a more, in a less destructive way?

VINCE BEISER: Yeah, there is. I mean, so there's, mining always causes some damage no matter how hard you try. The whole objective, of course, is to literally tear up the earth and dig out something that's underground. So you can mitigate that damage. You can try to lessen it, but there's always going to be some harm. So one thing is, you know, obviously, we can do everything we can to try to limit that damage with environmental rules, labour standards, which, you know, are much higher here in Canada than they are in a lot of places overseas, like the Philippines and Indonesia and other places where we're getting a lot of this stuff now. But more important than that, there's already a lot of these metals above ground, right? We've already dug up billions of tons of all of these metals that are in our gadgets, that are in our EVs. So we really need to be looking also at doing everything we can to recycle those things, which we're doing some of, but not nearly enough, and also to reuse. Even better than recycling is figuring out ways to extend the lives of those products, you know, to be able to repair them or resell them, refurbish them so that we don't have to be constantly, you know, you know, so that folks aren't just in The habit of throwing out the new iPhone every year and getting a new one just because the new one’s got, you know, 27 bazillion more megapixels in its camera or whatever.

MG: Just before I let you go, to that point, I mean, this is about control in some ways. You've said, you used this phrase earlier, the electro digital age that we're moving into, and that these things are going to be even if they're ubiquitous, now they're going to be even more so in future. What's at stake for all of us if the management and the control of these minerals isn't done correctly?

VINCE BEISER: Well, I think, you know, there's two real dangers, right? There's one is damage to the environment and to human beings. Like I said, all around the world, because of the scramble for these metals, rainforests are being cut to the ground, rivers are being poisoned, children are being put to work in mines in some places. There's all kinds of real horror stories that are coming along with that. And the second is the enormous geopolitical leverage that it gives China. So, you know, if you think about what happened in the 70s when the oil, the biggest oil producers all got together and said, you know what, we're going to cut off oil to the Western world. We're going to use that leverage to squeeze them. Something very similar could happen with these critical metals. So it is really important. We've got to get our hands on more of them, but we've also got to figure out how to do it in ways that are more sustainable and more humane.

MG: Vince, this is really helpful in understanding a phrase that people just keep saying perhaps and not knowing what they're actually talking about. Thank you very much for this.

VINCE BEISER: Well, thanks for having me on. It was great being here.

MG: Vince Beiser is the author of a new book, “Power Metal: The Race for the Resources That Will Shape the Future.” He also writes the Power Metal Substack. He was in Vancouver. As we heard, Canada has a lot of these critical minerals. Getting them out of the ground is not easy. Last week, I spoke with the premier of Yukon, Ranj Pillai, and he shared his concerns about what's next for this country's mineral management.

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RANJ PILLAI: They don't have the critical mineral wealth that Canada has, and they know they need it. And you've seen the way they've asserted it in their negotiations even with, I think, rare earth metals in Ukraine. Why are we not having a discussion about what we can do together? And when we talk about critical minerals, Canadian and US companies work very well together. We have a good mining ecosystem. Canada does this well. And when we think about this, why are we not trying to onshore all of the processing that's happening for all these critical minerals, not let countries control the supply chain and turn it off at their whim, which we've seen over and over again now coming from China. And why are we not creating new parts of our economy that we did not have together instead of trying to go into an economic battle?

MG: Werner Antweiler is an associate professor at the UBC Sauder School of Business, has written extensively about Canada's critical mineral resources. Werner, good morning to you.

WERNER ANTWEILER: Good morning.

MG: What do we have in this country?

WERNER ANTWEILER: Well, we have pretty much everything that we need. There are 31 critical minerals that Canada has identified in its critical Minerals strategy. And when I look at a map, it's everywhere. It's really literally from coast to coast to coast. We have copper and aluminum here in BC and molybdenum. We have copper and tungsten in the Yukon. We have, of course, uranium in Saskatchewan. And if you go to the East Coast all the way to Newfoundland, we have minerals there too. Lithium, which is very critical in many applications for electric vehicles, we have in Quebec. So if you go down the list, we've got it all.

MG: Can I just ask you about the north? Because in the conversation that I had with the premiers of the three northern territory's last week, we talked a lot about sovereignty and the control of resources, and particularly the critical minerals that would rest, for example, under Ice. What do we know about what's in Canada's north, especially in those areas that are under ice?

WERNER ANTWEILER: Well, the Geological Survey has conducted so many studies on what’s where. Much of it is not necessarily easily accessible. One of the reasons why we don't actually see many more mines already is that it's actually difficult to get to. It is expensive to get to. And instead, we have seen many more mining activities elsewhere in the world because it's cheaper, standards are lower. And that is in part the reason why what we see that is, for example, buried under the ice up north, it's just not readily accessible.

MG: What is the state of our critical mineral industry when it comes to not just the extraction, but understanding where the minerals are, getting them out, and then refining and producing them?

WERNER ANTWEILER: Yes. And here is a big gap. And as the previous speaker actually already pointed to, there's a lot of concentration. What is coming out of the ground is often shipped for processing to places, in particular China, which has a concentration in copper and lithium and nickel and cobalt and graphite and almost a monopoly in rare earth. So this is a continuing problem where we just don't have the processing and refining capacity that we need to satisfy the demand in the northern hemisphere here. And that is something where Canada has also opportunities. The problem has been that countries like China have been engaging in what is, to some extent, environmental dumping. They are able to produce at a lower cost because they have lower environmental standards. They have labour laws that are less protective, and they also have received state subsidies and cheap loans that have bootstrapped that industry.

MG: Is there a way for us to scale up the industry at speed, but not destroy the environment at the same time?

WERNER ANTWEILER: That is going to be exceedingly difficult because there is no such thing as fast mining. To open up a new mine takes about 10, 12, even 15 years because there is a long process even for the investors. They want to make sure that the resources are there, the ore great is really up to the level that they can exploit economically. They need to go through a regulatory process of environmental impact assessment. And increasingly, also, we have to acknowledge that we're operating on land that is essentially indigenous land where we need to have extensive conversations and consultations and buy in from those communities. That takes time. That cannot be short circuited. And that is something that we absolutely should not compromise on because essentially, we would create new problems down the road if you are fast tracking approval without looking at the long term consequences.

MG: If you do this right, what do you think the impact could be on our economy?

WERNER ANTWEILER: Very significant. We have a huge potential. And if the energy transition continues on the track as the International Energy Agency forecasts, we're going to need a lot more of these minerals. Under some mainstream scenarios, the IEA predicts that we need 42 times as much lithium as was produced in 2021. And if you go down the list, graphite, 25 more times, cobalt, 21 more times, nickel, 19 more times. So there is very significant demand that can be addressed by producing in Canada, but we have to do so responsibly. We cannot fast track it, but we also need to create a level playing field with other countries that are engaging in these practices that create labour problems, that create environmental problems and significant human rights issues, and where in some instances, we are also trampling on the rights of indigenous communities because they weren’t consulted when certain mines were opened up in foreign countries. So we need to develop a strategy to track and trace where minerals are coming from, and then actually create regulations that level the playing fields and put essentially a price on these negative externalities that happen elsewhere, but not here because we have better standards.

MG: Just very briefly, before I let you go, given the fact that the United States, we keep hearing these threats coming from the Oval Office, turning us into the 51st state and what have you, if we have, if you look at that map in your mind of across the country, we have all of these, these minerals, is there the opportunity for Canada to play a bit of hardball with the US here? Say we have what you need.

WERNER ANTWEILER: Well, this is kind of strange because on one hand, Trump seems to be very interested in critical minerals. But at the same time, he is pushing back hard against the energy transition, everything where these minerals are needed, electric vehicles, wind turbines. All of those applications where we need these minerals are related to the energy transition. Yet, Trump seems to be very, very keen on securing those, those minerals. But that said, we do have a strategy here now if they want to use minerals, and some are super critical even for the US military. We can push back. We have a very strong card to play when it comes to natural resources and energy.

MG: Werner, we'll leave it there. It's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

WERNER ANTWEILER: It's been a pleasure talking to you.

MG: Werner Antweiler is an associate professor at the UBC Sauder School of Business, also the chair of the Strategy and Business Economics Division, and the Research Chair in International Trade Policy.

[music]

WILDLIFE PHOTOGRAPHY

Guest: Donna Feledichuk

MG: This is The Current. My name is Matt Galloway. Close your eyes, well, if it's safe to close your eyes, and just picture these things. Two deer leap through a frozen vineyard in Slovenia. A bright blue kingfisher perching on a frozen cattail reed. A fox cub jumping, black and white paws outstretched. These are some of the winning images from the 2025 World Nature Photography Awards announced this month. The Canadian wildlife photographer, Donna Feledichuk, won bronze in the behaviour category for mammals, and she joins us this morning from her home in beautiful Lac La Biche in northern Alberta. Donna, good morning.

DONNA FELEDICHUK: Good morning.

MG: Congratulations.

DONNA FELEDICHUK: Thank you. I apologize, I have a bit of a cold, so my voice is hoarse.

MG: That's all right. We're going to talk about your beautiful, beautiful images. And I want you, I mean, it's radio, so it's tricky, but I said people should close their eyes. Describe this image of the fox.

DONNA FELEDICHUK: So this fox is jumping across a log pile. It's got its front paws perfectly aligned, side by side, outstretched as far as you could possibly be. Just think of a cat stretching. Backlit, so all the fuzzy fur around it is all highlighted by golden light against a really lovely backdrop of green leaves that are blurred in the background as it makes its leap quite high above the logs.

MG: Where was the photo taken?

DONNA FELEDICHUK: It was taken here in Lac La Biche, just about maybe a kilometre from my house.

MG: And you'd be tracking this family of foxes for a while now, right?

DONNA FELEDICHUK: Yeah. This family has been around my area for a few years. The mum actually has a kit that was born here about three years ago that I had, that I had watched her grow up, and now she's got her own litters the last two years. So yeah.

MG: Can I ask you about the title of the photo? I mean, aside from being a Van Halen fan, presumably, why did you call it might as well jump?

DONNA FELEDICHUK: Well, that's exactly. So I had another image that I had already called jump. And I thought, well, what else could I call this? And the lyrics of Van Halen is might as well jump. So I just, that's where it just literally came from, was the Van Halen lyrics going through my head as I was thinking what can I call this.

MG: I mean, it's such, the fox just looks like it's, there's a moment of joy in its face, if that makes sense. I'm not trying to be anthropomorphizing towards the animal, but it seems like it's having a lot of fun.

DONNA FELEDICHUK: Well, they were playing. And, you know, the kids were out and they were playing. And each kid has its own individual personality. And this one was the really adventurous one. You know, there was one that was super cautious, that would stick his head out and was scared of anything. But this was always a really adventurous one. And so it was more daring. And I think it quite enjoyed actually trying this leap to see if it could make it. So.

MG: You live and work in the boreal forest, and that is at the heart of your work. Tell me a little bit about your connection with that forest.

DONNA FELEDICHUK: Yeah. So I have, you know, my family initially is from northern Saskatchewan. My dad was military, and so we moved lots. But I always as soon as I got to the treeline, it always felt like home no matter where my dad was stationed. And so every time I got to the forest, it just calms your soul. I think people have that feeling sometimes with the ocean or the mountains, but for me, it's the forest. It just feels like home the minute I'm in it. I can't stand the wide open spaces down in the southern part of the province. It just, I'm just uncomfortable down there. But the minute I'm in the forest, it just feels like home. It just feels it's where I’m meant to be. And it’s just always very soothing to be in the forest.

MG: You’ve said that it's a place and a world that gives you hope in some ways too. We’re in a time now where I think hope feels elusive to many people and hard to see. So what is it about that space that gives you hope?

DONNA FELEDICHUK: It's watching the interactions, the day to day lives of the wildlife and the resiliency it shows, right? And I think as humans, we can learn so much about their resiliency and their patience. You know, if you watch a great grey owl hunting and the amount of patience that it has, or if you watch just how much a mother bear carries her cub or a mother moose, right, and there's so much we can learn if you just stop and pause and listen and watch their world and lessons that we can take into our world. And so that gives me hope. It makes me feel more hopeful when I'm able to observe the wildlife. It's just a peaceful, tranquil place to be. Of course, they have many challenges. Like just survival in the wild is, you know, is a difficult thing. But the characteristics that they display that we as humans can learn from, especially resiliency and patience I think are two things. And so yeah, it gives me hope.

MG: I love the owl photos. I'm obsessed with owls, but the photos that you have of owls, snowy owls and others are extraordinary. What do you learn from the owls in particular?

DONNA FELEDICHUK: The owls are just, oh my goodness, the owls are just majestic. I don't know how to explain it, but when you're… an owl almost allows you, honours you with allowing you to stay in their presence. An owl, when you photograph owls, I find, you'll watch them. They'll decide, they know you're there. They'll decide whether they're staying or they're going, right? And they'll make the decision pretty quick. But it's almost like it's an honour every time they allow you to just be in their presence and to photograph them. Last night, for example, I was out photographing a great grey owl, which he probably landed at least 10 times within four or five feet of me. And it's just, you know, that they're allowing you to be in their space and to be in their presence. And it just gives you a glimpse into their world, which is such a privilege and an honour, I think, when they allow that, right? And it's when they allow you in and watching what they do and how they do it. And, you know, you're just immersed, you’re so in the moment when you're out in the wild, right? And I think we get caught up in the hecticness of the day, and our minds are moving around with everything that needs to be done. But there's just a peace and an in the moment presence when you're around an owl or any wildlife for that matter and observing it.

MG: I feel that when I'm watching and looking at your photos. They are extraordinary. Congratulations on this. It's a real pleasure to talk to you.

DONNA FELEDICHUK: Thank you.

MG: DONNA FELEDICHUK is an award-winning wildlife photographer, recently won bronze in the Behaviour category for Mammals in the 2025 World Nature Photography Awards. We reached her in Lac La Biche, Alberta.

[Song: “Jump” by Van Halen]

MG: That's The Current for this Thursday, the 27th of February. That award winning photo is called might as well jump. How could you talk about it and not play a little bit of Van Halen to send you out? This of course is Van Halen and “Jump.” I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Turn it up. I'll see you tomorrow.

[song plays and fades out]

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Thursday, February 27, 2025 Episode Transcript

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