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The AIH transcript for January 30, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: From routine to ruinous. A straightforward flight ends in tragedy, when a mid-air collision kills everyone on board. A coach pays tribute to some of the figure skaters lost in the crash.

CH: The longest wait. A reverend in Wichita tells us about joining an anxious father at the airport waiting to hear about his daughter -- and about how his community is supporting the victims' families.

NK: Caught in the crossfire. A UN worker in the heart of the besieged city of Goma in Congo describes the dire and deadly situation.

CH: Claws and effect. Donald Trump continues to make dark pronouncements about tariffs -- but a Newfoundland seafood processor says his colleagues in the U.S. aren’t looking forward to them any more than he is.

NK: Carpe so-dium. An award-winning photographer from Brooklyn self-publishes a 420-page McAtlas -- a Global Guide to the Golden Arches.

CH: And...covering the spread. We'll explore a mystery that's not for the faint of heart, or the intolerant of lactose: a rash of butter thefts in southern Ontario that has jaws and cholesterol dropping.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that hates to lock its fridge at night -- but butter safe than sorry.

Part 1: D.C. Plane Crash: Skater, D.C. Plane Crash: Wichita, Tariffs NL Seafood

D.C. Plane Crash: Skater

Guest: Elin Schran

CH: What started as a rescue mission has become a recovery mission. As you've heard on the news, everyone on board the passenger jet and army helicopter that collided near Washington D.C. last night is now presumed dead. The two aircraft were carrying 67 people combined. The plane left Wichita, Kansas, last night, carrying more than a dozen figure skaters returning from a training camp -- including 16-year-old Spencer Lane, who was traveling with his mother, Christine. Elin Schran is a coach at the Skating Club of Boston. She worked with Mr. Lane. We reached her in Boston.

NK: Elin, how are you coping with what has happened?

ELIN SCHRAN: I went to the Skating Club of Boston to be in community and with friends. I had a call from Nancy Kerrigan this morning, who is a close friend and also, well, also an international skating star. And she was devastated. And we cried on the phone together. And she said, I don't know what to do. I don't know where to go. Do you think we should go to the club? And so, I called my mom, who was also a skater, a skating champion Tenley Albright. And so, the three of us went to the Skating Club of Boston together. We were hoping that, not just that we might find some comfort being together and being near the ice that we love so much, but also that maybe we could offer a little bit of comfort to other people there. Just let them know that we are thinking about them, thinking about the families and the friends who lost people dear to them.

NK: You lost, yeah, you lost people who were dear to you. So many lives lost. One of the young, promising skaters, 16-year-old Spencer Lane, who you worked with, I mean, I don't know him, obviously, but he seemed like a very vibrant personality.

ES: Yeah, he really, he really was. He had a, he had a real spark off the ice. But on the ice, I don't think I've ever met somebody like him. He only started skating three years ago.

NK: Really?!

ES: And, first of all, starting at 13 is a little bit old to become elite. And then, also achieving what he mastered in three years is unheard of. He had huge, beautiful triples, all of his triples. And, in addition to that, he had this incredible natural grace, and just an understanding of the ice, and speed, and height. I just haven't seen that before.

NK: He was clearly so excited based on his post to go to this training camp. He had big dreams.

ES: Yeah. Yeah, he, he was on a rapid trajectory to reach the top of the sport. He loved skating. He had really great friends at the skating club [beginning to cry] who are suffering right now.

NK: I'm so sorry, Elin.

ES: And he was meant for the ice.

NK: Have you had a chance to speak with his surviving family members yet?

ES: No, I haven't. I believe his father, and the father of young Jinna, who was also lost, and Max Naumov, whose parents were lost, are all in D.C. now together.

NK: When did you find out that there had been a crash, and that people you knew were on that flight?

ES: I woke up at about 6:30 this morning to a bunch of texts. And the first one that I read just said, I'm so sorry. And it had a heart broken emoji. And I didn't know exactly what my friend was referring to. And I started scrolling through the other texts, and some of the other texts had a little more information. And then, and then, I saw the list.

NK: I don't think most of us could imagine seeing that list, a list that long of people we know.

ES: Yeah.

NK: What did you do?

ES: Unfortunately, well, unfortunately, it was the second time for my mother. Because in 1961, our entire world team was killed in a plane crash on their way to the championships in Prague. And their plane went down in Belgium. And 22 of my mother's friends were on that plane.

NK: How is she doing?

ES: So, she's feeling a lot of old Greif and new Greif together. And she's grateful for community and the strength of the skating family that we belong to. And she also knows that, somehow, we'll get through this.

NK: Skating, the skating community is, can be very tight-knit. Sure, there's competition, and people get competitive with each other, but it's still a family. And you've talked about how close-knit it is. It's so early. You're all still processing this. How, how do you, do you move forward, do you think?

ES: I don't really know. I think, I think one day at a time. And I'm hoping that people remember that they can reach out for support. And we need to be patient with one another. I hope that everyone will respect one another's way of dealing with this.

NK: I hope so, too. Elin, I wonder if, if you wouldn't mind, before we let you go, if you could share one of your last experiences with Spencer Lane? You worked with him on a, on a production, his first professional show. What did he tell you about that experience?

ES: So, we just did a show in December in Cambridge, Massachusetts called The Skate Gatsby. And it was an updated, joyful version of The Gatsby Party with greater diversity. And Spencer, who is just so technically incredible, had never done a professional show. And our goal in professional performance is less on the technical difficulty and more on the connection with the audience, and sharing the joy of your gift with audience members. And knowing that by sharing what you do with them, you may be relieving them for just the 45 minutes of the show of something that they're coping with and that they're dealing with. And so, that I try to tell my skaters before a performance, this isn't really about you or about us. It's really about the people that are coming to see it, and the conversation that you're going to have through your skating with them. And when it became Spencer's, he was in the opening number, and, you know, we had a big production number. And then, when it was his time to do his solo, he was suddenly quite nervous. And it didn't go exactly as he had planned. And he, I think he fell on a jump, which doesn't normally happen for him. And he was concerned about, you know, getting everything just right. And then, he was fantastic in the finale and everything. And then, after the show, he came and found me before he was leaving. And just was beaming. Just, I've never seen him so lighted up. And he said, [long pause, and crying] I didn't know I could have that much fun skating. And I get it now. He said, I understand, and please, please hire me back next season.

NK: I'm glad he got to experience that joy, Elin. Thank you.

ES: Me too. I am, too.

NK: I'm very sorry for your loss. Please take care, Elin. Thank you.

ES: I appreciate that.

NK: Thank you.

ES: Thank you.

CH: Elin Schran is a coach at the Skating Club of Boston. We reached her in Boston.

[cold into next story. No music]

D.C. Plane Crash: Wichita

Guest: Ben Staley

CH: This afternoon, people in Wichita gathered for a prayer service to honour the crash victims. Here's mayor Lily Wu giving the opening remarks.

SOUNDCLIP

LILY WU: We want to have a prayer that will give comfort to those who still have uncertainty, difficulty, and need words of wisdom from our faith leaders. In memory of those who have lost their lives, in honour of the families that are grieving, I'm asking that we come together as Wichitins, as Kansans, and as Americans.

CH: Wichita Mayor Lily Wu speaking at a community prayer service today. Revered Ben Staley was at that service. He was also at the Wichita airport last night, offering support for people who were waiting there for news. We reached Reverend Staley in Wichita.

NK: Reverend, what was that prayer service like?

BEN STALEY: It was a time for the community to come together in ways that we have at other times in the past. It was really all different denominations, and just all were welcome throughout the community. There was no one group. It was for everyone. And everyone came of concern for the families and concern for the community.

NK: How would you describe the emotion or emotions in that room?

BS: Stunned, almost shock, in a way, and grieving. And, at the same time, something of a quiet hope, an assurance that the Lord is going to keep his promises and minister to those who need healing of emotions, and especially families who've lost loved ones.

NK: You spoke with someone who lost a loved one on that flight, as I understand it. What did they tell you?

BS: Yes. At that time last night, it was about 11 p.m. Central Time. And, you know, information was really going out from Washington, D.C. because they wanted to confirm everything before they went to the families. And they were just trying to be careful at this time. So, even this gentleman, he had a daughter, he's probably in his 50s or so, had a daughter on the flight, and who was waiting to hear what had happened and were there any survivors? And so, he was just waiting in quiet desperation for word. And that's really why I went out to the airport. I think that probably describes everyone there, just waiting in quiet desperation because we were concerned that we would get that news that there were no survivors.

NK: Were you at the airport when that word came down?

BS: No, I was there at about 1, 'till about 1:30 in the morning. And all family members, city leaders were there, the mayor, the council members, as well as the media, and airport personnel. And American Airlines had a group of volunteers who were there to support any families who might have been there that lost loved ones. But the message was going out to families not to come to the airport because they would be receiving word at their home number.

NK: You can understand the impulse, though, right? You can.

BS: Yeah, right. Just to be near where the word might come first. But the truth is, it came to American Airlines, and they sent the word out to the families. So, that's why they didn't just hang around the airport. Because better to be in your own comfortable, familiar surroundings.

NK: I think a lot of people, we certainly, you know, late last night saw the news bulletins, and were looking to find out more information as well. When did you find out that, that something had happened? You know, before the airport? What were you doing, and how did you find out?

BS: I was just watching the evening news. And here, it comes on at 10, 11 Eastern, and began showing these pictures from the Potomac. And all the emergency lights flashing. And then, said it was a flight from Wichita, a flight that is a nonstop flight from Wichita to Washington, D.C. It's fairly new just in the past year. And they began saying that it's possible that some of the figure skaters who had been in Wichita might have been on the flight. And then it occurred to me that us, you know? Instead of just watching a news story, now I'm hearing about my own neighbours, the people that I live with, and our city leaders. And it seemed to me everybody at the airport had to be, just what I found, had to be stunned and feeling lost. And needed, needing encouragement and some reason for hope. And so, that's why I went there. Not because I had answers, but because I wanted to join them in seeking some hope.

NK: Reverend, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

BS: You're welcome.

CH: We reached Reverend Ben Staley in Wichita, Kansas.

[lo-fi]

Tariffs NL Seafood

Guest: Paul Grant

CH: We've heard a lot about the looming threat of tariffs on Canadian and Mexican goods -- which could be announced as early as Saturday. And once again today, U.S. President Donald Trump renewed that threat. If the intent is to cause anxiety, it's working: seafood producers and fishermen in Newfoundland and Labrador are worried. And the snow crab business is a big part of their concern. Around 90 per cent of the snow crab harvested in the province is sent to the U.S. -- and the industry is estimated to be worth half a billion dollars. Premier Andrew Furey met with cabinet ministers, industry, and community members to discuss impending trade scenarios with the U.S. He spoke at a press briefing after the meeting.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW FUREY: While this is an incredible moment of anxiety and disruption, we shouldn't let this moment pass. And this is stuff we should have been doing anyway. We should be proud of our products. I'm incredibly proud of our products. We need to be making sure that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and Canadians at large understand the products, and what value they can bring to them.

CH: Paul Grant is the owner of Beothic Fish Processors Limited, which operates largely around Bonavista Bay. He's also the board chair of the Association of Seafood Producers; he was at today's meeting. We reached him in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador earlier today.

NK: Paul, I wonder, as you left that meeting, was it a sense of relief or something else? What were you feeling?

PAUL GRANT: Well, it's the first time that I've heard from the government that, you know, that they've given us some acknowledgment that we need to have industry-specific responses. You know, for example, in the fishery, we may have a more acute issue than maybe some other industry. And the premier has committed to having industry side tables, which we can talk about all these solutions, you know, the Team Canada Solutions and all this. But this is on our doorstep. And the fact that we're now going to have industry-specific discussions I think is a really good move.

NK: It sounds like you're leaving satisfied, at least for now. What was it like inside that meeting, though? We weren't there, obviously. How would you describe the energy there?

PG: I think it was very well-run. And people spoke their minds. The premier was very open to suggestions. In fact, he asked us to put down a list, each industry put down a specific list of things that we should be looking at.

NK: Clearly, you're busy, people, other people want to find out what came out of the meeting there at your office. Is that indicative of, sort of phones ringing off the hook, indicative of what the last few weeks have been like for you?

PG: It's been very busy. You know, the risk profile on this for processors is enormous. We're not just going simply buy raw material and process it and hope that there's no tariffs coming in. And it may not come in February 1st. But that doesn't mean there's no risk. One thing that seems to be consistent is this unpredictable nature of the president. You know, this could come in in the middle of the fishery. You have to have some kind of mitigation plan in place, not just for this year, but certainly for the duration of the, the term of this president. And, hopefully, we'll have something that will come together in the next, next few weeks.

NK: And in terms of your conversations with buyers in the U.S., what are they telling you?

PG: They don't want to have their businesses upended any more than we do. You know, it's very difficult for us to make a deal. You know, typically, when we get to the Boston Seafood Show, which is mid-March, we start to make deals for sales into the U.S. We don't know what our cost structure is yet because of this cloud of potential tariffs hanging over us. You know, it's going to upend their business just the same as us. They depend on snow crab, for example, just as much as we depend on them to buy it.

NK: How much of your business relies on U.S. markets, on U.S. buyers?

PG: Well, snow crab is the number one item for us. And we're well over 75 per cent going into the U.S. There's other items that we sell in there as well. For the industry, it's over 90 per cent. Many in the industry don't do a lot of business in the Japanese market. Our company does, and some of the other larger processors to do business in Japan. That allows us to not be as reliant on the U.S. market as maybe some of the other smaller companies would be. But whether it's 75 per cent or 90, it's still an extremely high number. And as an industry, we are very much tied to the U.S. market.

NK: You've got this, this meeting with the premier saying give us lists. We're going to give you specific, you know, focus groups to help make sure your industry in particular is taken care of. Beyond that, what would you say, what kind of protections would you like to see?

PG: Well, you know, it should be, or could be, like the COVID response. We could have an industry shutdown. We don't know. If we have an industry shutdown, we're going to have plant workers, harvesters, truckers, and a lot of other spin-off businesses affected by this.

NK: Could it be that dire, really?

PG: It could be that dire. And if the risk profile is not acceptable to the processing sector, we don't intend to buy. So, it's, you know, this is a massive problem. And it affects small communities all throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

NK: You're not sitting still, obviously. You continue to have these conversations, and, and push, and ask for what you need. But what do you think the next few days are going to be like, Paul? Saturday in particular?

PG: Well, you know, I'm not so much focused on Saturday. Whether there's a tariff announced on Saturday, or whether it's two weeks after that, or a month after that, whatever happens, we still have maybe the unpredictability where it comes out of the equation if he announces something on Saturday. But if, if he doesn't announce something on Saturday, we still have this cloud hanging over us. We have no degree of trust that there's not going to be a tariff. So, it makes it all the more important that we have some sort of risk mitigation plan in place that would either allow us to process and reduce the risk for processors. Or assist in dealing with displaced workers or, you know, workers, you know, they're not going to have the employment that they were expecting to have because the industry is shut down. And I don't want to sound overly dire about this, but that's the magnitude of this situation. And it's been dropped on us all of a sudden. Nobody ever really contemplated having this, this type of situation dropped on us.

NK: Paul, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

PG: You're welcome.

CH: Paul Grant is the owner of Beothic Fish Processors Limited, and board chair of the Association of Seafood Producers. We reached him in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[indie rock]

Butter Thefts

CH: Every night across Southern Ontario, people are having nightmares -- whimpering [NK chuckles] "oh no, please, I need that for toast," in their sleep. And when they wake up, they realize the nightmare hasn't ended. The butter thefts...are all too real.

SOUNDCLIP

[horror music]

MAN: A growing list of butter thefts [distorted] have hit local grocery stores.

MAN #2: This Guelph grocery store, the scene of a butter heist [distorted] that sounds more like a bank robbery.

MAN #3: An unusual kind of crime hitting grocery stores in Guelph and Brantford: people stealing large amounts of butter [distorted].

MAN #4: We’ve had nine separate incidents where large amounts of butter [distorted] we stolen from grocery stores.

MAN #5: They loaded the butter in and away they went [distorted and echoing].

CH: Now, those reports, accompanied by that appropriately dramatic music, were from late 2024. A year in which the city of Guelph suffered what the Toronto Star calls "10 large-scale, butter-related robberies". It’s a pretty broad description since, to my mind, everything is butter-related. But The Star is referring to multiple crimes in which hundreds of dollars' worth of butter were spirited away. And, in the vast majority of cases, never found. Now, a crucial break in a case in Peel Region. After an investigation, police have arrested six people who are suspects in a giant butter-related conspiracy -- a conspiracy in which $60,000 of butter and ghee were stolen from grocery stores in and around Brampton, Ontario. Why butter? No one knows for sure, although -- given the amounts being stolen -- there's clearly a black market for it. So, be careful out there. You may like hot buttered toast -- but you don't want toast with hot butter.

[lo-fi]

Part 2: Goma: UN, International McDonald’s

Goma: UN

Guest: Vivian van de Perre

CH: The fighting is mostly over in Goma. But that doesn't mean the eastern Congo city is at peace. Earlier this week Rwandan-backed rebels with the group M23 entered the city. There were reports of intense fighting with Democratic Republic of the Congo troops. And now, the M23 appear to be pushing beyond Goma. Felix Tshisekedi, the president of the DRC, is promising a, quote, "vigorous, coordinated response". Unquote. The fighting has endangered the lives of millions of civilians, many of whom have sought shelter in UN peacekeeping bases. Bases that were supposed to help the DRC's government stabilize the region. Vivian van de Perre is the deputy head of the UN peacekeeping mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. We reached her in Goma. And a warning: some of what she describes is hard to hear.

NK: Vivian van de Perre, how would you describe what Goma is like tonight?

VIVIAN VAN DE PERRE: Goma tonight is relatively quiet, absolutely chaotic in terms of humanitarian situation, and very, very tense.

NK: Can you describe for our listeners what that chaos, and as we've been talking about on our program, how dangerous it's been, how that affects your ability, and your team's ability, to do what it needs to do?

VVDP: It affects us greatly. As you know, on 26th January, this last Sunday, the M23 advance on Goma, supported by the RDF, the Rwanda Defence Forces. And they have managed to capture the town and all its surroundings. There has been heavy fighting which started on Sunday, and which continued on Monday and Tuesday. And it was a very kinetic environment. Our bases are all over Goma town. Our headquarters, where I'm sitting right now, is right in the heart of Goma at the lake. But we have also many military bases around town. All of us have been affected by crossfire, small arms fire, RPG impacts -- that's rocket propelled grenades -- and also mortars. There's also been the use of artillery. So, it was really a war, a full-fledged war. It's affected, of course, mostly the population. So, there are 700,000 IDPs once again on the move in and around Goma.

NK: Displaced people.

VVDP: Many of them have already moved multiple times. The situation is very dire. All our bases have been damaged. We have bullets all over. We have some direct impacts. We have several dead. We have many wounded -- three dead, 22 wounded.

NK: Three peacekeepers have died.

VVDP: among some gravely. Peacekeepers. And also, many lightly wounded that we are not counting. And we have real problems with car evac and medevac because the airfield is closed. In addition to that, most of our bases have taken in people for urgent protection. So, currently, we still have about 2,000 in our bases. They're living literally here between our offices. And we have people all around us outside that have sought our protection. We have been running low on food, on water, on medical supplies. There's outbreaks of diarrhea. And there's, Lake Kivu here, bodies wash ashore all the time at our offices. So, it's really a very difficult situation.

NK: Let me just ask, Vivian. I think as as listeners take in everything you're saying, it's almost unimaginable how you would, how you could continue to cope. You're used to dealing with difficult situations. That's the work you do. But how are you and your team and all of those people continuing on?

VVDP: Well, we are here for a purpose. We are here, we are peacekeepers, we are here to help the population. That is number one. Our, one of the main elements in our mandate is protection of civilians. So, regardless of who holds Goma, we feel that we have a role to play. We do our very best to protect whoever we can. But the staff, you know, they're used to this. They're peacekeepers. Some are more affected than others. But we live altogether in the offices. We support each other. It's really a team effort. We work 22, 23 hours a day, people are barely eating, and we're just sleeping on our desks. And we're managing as best we can. And we all smell very, very bad. So, it's good that this is a radio interview and not an in-person interview .

NK: And the fact that you can still have a sense, a sense of humour in all of this is necessary, I would imagine, to help you get through. We're getting reports that the M23 fighters are pushing past Goma, and that the president is promising a vigorous, coordinated response. That's a quote from him. But, at the same time, we're seeing images of hundreds of Romanian mercenaries apparently hired by the DRC who have now either surrendered to M23 or to Rwanda. What should our listeners take away from that about the president's ability to reassert control over this part of his country?

VVDP: Yes, well, I can't comment on that too much. But what I can say is that we firmly believe that there's no military solution to this conflict. So, Goma fell. That means that the FARC, plus all its allies, of which the mercenaries were a part, have not been able to hold it. So, we all know that M23 is right now moving south towards Bukavu in South Kivu, and nobody knows how it's going to go. But I know one thing: that the population is going to suffer.

NK: When you gave a briefing to, to UN officials. Just the other day, you know, you connected by video. I saw you there with protection, and you were wearing, inside, all of your protective gear because of the dangers, as you were saying. I wonder when you, since you made those pleas, do you see any signs of, of people heeding or listening to your pleas tonight?

VVDP: On a strategic scale, I would say not really. Because nobody's going back to the negotiating table just yet. But I notice a lot of international diplomatic pressure being exerted on all the parties for that. But in terms of the life in Goma, today, people started coming out a little bit, but there's still pockets of fighting everywhere. There's still a resistance. We have a jailbreak here. Four thousand prisoners are on the loose. There's a lot of looting. It is total, it's like Armageddon almost. By the way, this prison escape was also very dramatic. Four thousand prisoners escaped, but about 200 women were all mass gangraped, and then their barracks set on fire. And they, most of them died in the fire. So, it's horrible things happening here. But people have been coming out a little bit today into the streets, but the situation is extremely tense. And fighting can break out in pockets anytime all over. So, the way you saw me with the flak jacket and the helmet and in the, normally in a bunker, that is not necessary right now, but it could activate any second. So, we are now in the offices, but most people are still wearing personal protective equipment because there's sporadic firing, and we are sitting in containers, these are our offices. And any bullet just falls through the roof, and just, we find them everywhere in the offices. So, for your own protection, it's better to wear a helmet.

NK: Vivian, I very much appreciate your time. Stay safe.

VVDP: Thank you very much for this opportunity.

CH: Vivian van de Perre is the deputy head of the UN peacekeeping mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. We reached her in Goma.

[sombre instrumental]

Hamilton Encampment Fire

CH: "Not a lot of people run towards a fire." That's what Shawn Goodwin of Hamilton, Ontario said from his hospital bed this week. And Mr Goodwin wasn't talking in metaphors. He was talking about the 17-year-old who saved his life. That would be Zeke Fox. Zeke was driving by a Hamilton park earlier this month when he spotted smoke coming from a tent -- a tent that turned out to have someone inside.

SOUNDCLIP

ZEKE FOX: So, I pulled over, ran over to the tent, and as I approached the tent, there were a few small pops. And then, the tent just went up in flames. And when I heard Shawn screaming, he screamed help me three times. And that's when I knew that I had to help him. You know, I didn't really think about how I was going to help him. I didn't really know how I was going to help him. I just, my first thought was, okay, where is he? So, I, I tried to pinpoint. Like, I told him, like, keep talking, keep yelling out. And he did. And I managed to find an entrance to the tent. And it was a tarp, like a piece of tarp. So, I managed to, I ripped that off the tent. And when I did that, all I could feel was heat, and all I could see was fire. Like, it was just, it was just straight fire. I couldn't see anything else. The smoke was very thick and heavy. And then, I found Shawn. He was stuck. So, I managed to drag him out and roll him in the snow. And, at that point, when I got him out, I turned around in the tent was already almost gone. And then, I had Shawn rolling in the snow, trying to keep him, like, I could tell that he wasn't doing good. And I just tried to keep him awake. Police weren't, didn't really know that we were over there until they walked around the back. And then, they saw us. And I told them, I need an ambulance here now.

CH: That was 17-year-old Zeke Fox of Hamilton, Ontario. Shawn Goodwin, the man he saved, is still in hospital, and says he's recovering well. The pair have stayed in touch, and have plans to go fishing in the summer.

[lounge jazz]

International McDonald’s

Guest: Gary He

CH: When I pull into the drive-thru at my local McDonald's, my order is pretty simple. Just give me a plain old Big Mac, large fries, and a small Coke…and 10 Chicken McNuggets, and two Filet O'Fishes, and a Sausage 'N Egg McMuffin, and obviously a McRib if it's McRib season. And so many napkins. But say I wasn't at the golden arches in Canada. Say I was in Bangkok, or Paris. Then my order might include something like a chicken porridge or a McBaguette. Right now, you may be yelling at your radio: "Chris, if you go to Paris, eat anywhere but McDonald's". But Gary He would disagree. Mr. He is a photographer, and the author of the newly released McAtlas: A Global Guide to the Golden Arches. We reached him in Brooklyn.

NK: Gary, how many McDonald's locations around the world did you visit as you, as you put this book together?

GARY HE: I don't have an exact count, but I've definitely been to hundreds of McDonald's across 55 countries and six continents that McDonald's is on.

NK: Did you eat something at each one?

GH: Yes, I ate a McDonald's at, [NK laughs]I ate McDonald's at every location that I visited. You know, there's a lot of walking involved when you do that much traveling. So, thankfully, it balanced out.

NK: [laughing] That's how you're justifying it in your mind?

GH: Yeah.

NK: Well, also --

GH: I had a lot of steps.

NK: That's good. That's a good way. I mean, I would do exactly the same thing. But there's, there's the why of all of this. You know, [GH chuckles] what was the moment, were you biting into something? You had a Chicken McNuggets, a Filet-O-Fish, and you thought, how do they do this in Kyoto?

GH: Yeah, I've actually been, you know, like most people, I have, like, a lifelong relationship with McDonald's. Eating it as a kid, and then, you know, surviving through college while, with the dollar menu. But it was actually during Ramadan in Morocco a couple of years ago where they had an Iftar meal, which is the meal to break the fast during the monthly Ramadan fasting. And I just happened to be in McDonald's. I saw this meal that involved a lot of local sweets, and dates, and a harira soup, and then a milk yogurt drink.

NK: Oh my!

GH: And I just, yeah, and I just said to myself, like, okay, this is, like, very localized and appeals to, like, you know, the local religion and all that stuff. And so, and I couldn't find anything about it online. And as a food journalist, I just said, like, how is this possible that the largest restaurant chain in the world did not have this documented somewhere? And so, I just took it upon myself to start documenting it. And I made the McAtlas make at least a couple of years later.

NK: And was there a standout meal, or a few, I would imagine, for you as you put McAtlas together?

GH: Several. I mean, I really love the McSpaghetti, which, you know, can you guess what --

NK: Come on!

GH: Can you guess what country the McSpaghetti is in?

NK: Well, I've seen the photographs, so I know. [GH laughs] So, I will cop to that, that it is kind of cheating. I didn't know I was going to be quizzed, but I'm glad to be prepared, as always, the Philippines.

GH: Yeah. I mean, you would think it would be, like, Italy or something like that.

NK: The Italians would, I think, they would kick McDonald's out before they let them make pasta.

GH: [laughing] They actually had a partnership with Barilla, the local pasta brand, you know, a couple of years ago. But, yeah, I really enjoyed the, the McSpaghetti in the Philippines because it is a local flavour profile that is present in all the children's birthday parties there. And almost every single American chain, I think the McBaguette is quite iconic, you know, in France. And they only have it once in a while.

NK: It's controversial.

GH: Yeah, very controversial. [laughing] I'm sure there's some anger involved. But, you know, France is the largest market for McDonald's in Europe. So, they're loving it. And I don't think it's just the tourists eating it over there.

NK: You came to Canada as well. You tried Poutine at a McDonald's, which again, controversial. What did you think?

GH: Let's just say it's, it's adequate.

NK: Okay.

GH: I don't want to say anything to make my friends up north dislike me. So, you know, I enjoyed it. I do think the best thing you guys have that is not available in the United States are the snack wraps, which almost every single customer in America is clamouring for. But, you know, it's been off the menu for a couple of years. But in Canada, you you just have a wealth of snack wraps available, and also full size wraps. We could have, you don't even need to get on an airplane, right, to enjoy some of the finery of international McDonald's. [NK chuckles] You just have to go across the border.

NK: It's interesting, though, that you mentioned how specific and tailored what you saw was to the countries you were visiting and the cities you were visiting. Because initially, when I heard the story, and maybe others as well, you think if you're traveling, hey, it's cool if you, if you want a taste of home or a taste of North America. Absolutely, go for it. Who's going to stop you? But the point of traveling is to experience different cultures. So, why would McDonald's anywhere be a stop, you know, for somebody? You have a different focus, obviously. But was that something you considered?

GH: Yeah. I mean, I, it, I think a lot of people say, yeah, when I'm overseas, I want to try the local food. Well, that's kind of the point of the book, right? That this is local food because I think the assumption, especially for us North Americans, is that McDonald's has this, like, very standardized, like, familiar menu that's available everywhere. And to a certain extent, yes, they have these core menu items. But without these, without these very localized menu items, some of these rice dishes, like macaroni dishes, what have you, around the world, they would not have been able to survive and thrive the way they have. I mean, they're the largest for a reason, right? And so, and I think they've also localized the best in a lot of these countries. And so, that, that is really kind of the point of the book is to kind of show that this is a local food.

NK: I looked at the photographs. They are quite striking and beautiful. And if you like, again, if you're interested in, in brands, but also architecture and design, and that connection to, to the countries they're in, they're really beautiful photographs.

GH: Thank you!

NK: Did you have some favourites?

GH: Yeah. I mean, I really loved visiting the McSki, which is on the side of a mountain in Sweden. I arrived at just the perfect time in early December for, before busy season. And so, the snow was still fresh. It was, like, crunching on the ground, and you had a ski-up window, which is the only, only one in the entire world, which was really fun to photograph. I really love that one. And there, there was a Japanese tea garden one in Singapore.

NK: It's beautiful!

GH: Which I thought, yeah, which I thought was very beautiful and zen. And it's, it will be the most peaceful McDonald's meal that you'll ever have in your life, you know, watching this koi pond [NK chuckles] with fish and turtles, you know, swimming around while you're, while you're eating a McSpicy sandwich.

NK: [chuckling] Gary, a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you.

GH: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Gary He is the author of the newly released McAtlas: A Global Guide to the Golden Arches. We reached him in Brooklyn.

[wistful instrumental]

Marianne Faithfull Obit

CH: Marianne Faithfull was a British pop icon, a cabaret performer, a singer-songwriter, the onetime muse of Rolling Stones frontman Mick Jagger. She had a voice that was full of grit and hard-earned wisdom -- and her life and career lasted as long as they did because she was as tough as she sounded. Marianne Faithfull died today. She was 78 years old. Her six-decade career started in the '60s, with her debut single -- a cover of "As Tears Go By," by the Rolling Stones, which hit the U.K. Top 10 -- and which she would later re-record twice. She went on to make 21 studio albums, and act in classic films including The Girl On A Motorcycle and Nicol Williamson's Hamlet -- in which she played Ophelia. Today, she's being remembered as a survivor, having lived through a heroin addiction, an overdose attempt, anorexia, and breast cancer. And in 2020, she contracted COVID. Doctors said they didn't expect her to survive. But she went on to complete and release her final studio album. Here is Marianne Faithfull speaking with the CBC in 2021, about wanting to finish that album.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIANNE FAITHFULL: I don't think anybody's gone. I think all their little molecules are still floating about. But I just didn't want to go yet. I wanted to finish my record, other things I want to do. Maybe, I know I can't go on tour anymore. I, anyway, I'm quite old, you know? I've done a lot.

TOM POWER: Do you think that people get something wrong about you? Like, if you were going to set the record straight on something, what would it be?

MF: Oh, there's a lot of things they get wrong. It's hardly worth it, you know? I mean, I was seen as this incredibly sexual being, which I'm not. Then I was seen as a hopeless junkie, which I was a bit, but not like they thought. Lots of things, yeah. But I don't care to set the record straight. I think people should think what they like. They may be wrong, but let them be free to do what they like.

TP: Marianne, that's a piece that I, I think most of us could only aspire to. How did you get to there?

MF: Well, I've been very lucky. I stopped taking drugs. I stopped drinking. And a few years ago, I stopped smoking. And, of course, and I go, I get help. There's a place I go with other people like me. And that's very good for me, too. Because it's very important to remember that I am not alone. And nor are you. And nor is anybody out there in Radioland. We really are not alone.

TP: Only tell me as much as you want to tell me now.

MF: Don't worry, I won't. [both laugh].

TP: Do you think you'll ever be able to sing again?

MF: I don't know, darling. I really don't know. I'm working on it. I have, I do singing practice once a week with a friend of mine who comes around and plays the guitar, and I try to sing. And I hope. And I think maybe if I go on doing that, I hope I'll be able to sing again.

CH: The late Marianne Faithfull speaking with the CBC's Tom Power on Q in 2021. Marianne Faithfull died today. She was 78.

[sombre instrumental]

Part 3: RFKJ Nomination, DNC Leadership Vote

Resort Deaths

CH: In December 2023, Stephen Gougeon and his family did what many Canadians families do in the winter -- they went on a tropical vacation. But just hours after checking in at the Viva Dominicus Beach resort in Dominican Republic, and eating at the buffet, they became violently ill. In a new lawsuit, Mr. Gougeon says that their request for medical assistance was initially ignored. They were eventually taken to a hospital -- and that's where his wife, 41-year-old April Gougeon, and their son, eight-year-old Oliver, died. The coroner's report concluded they died from secondary causes related to food poisoning. Now, Stephen Gougeon is suing the hotel and travel company, Air Transat, for failing to keep them safe.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPHEN GOUGEON: You know, I think in terms of outcome, I think, I think there needs to be accountability for these companies. And I just don't want this to happen again. I don't want anyone to ever have to endure what I've endured. It's awful. And, I mean, there's only, like, the only remedy that would ever satisfy me can't happen. And, like, you know? So, I just --

DAVID COMMON: They can't be brought back.

SG: No, no. And that's, that's the only thing that would, that I want, and I know I can't have it. So, this is, this is about being accountable. And, hopefully, me speaking out about this will have some change, have some positive impact. And I just want people to know about, about the risks and, you know, just to, just to think about these things.

DC: How is your son, your surviving son, who doesn't have his mom, and doesn't have his brother?

SG: You know, I think it's, overall, he's, he's doing okay. Like, he has a lot of, we have a tremendous amount of support. We have a lovely family. My, my in-laws, my, my wife's family, is, is tremendous, my family. We have a great amount of support in our neighbourhood in Toronto. And the school that he goes to is, is tremendous. And I just, you know, he's my number one priority forever. He'll be, he'll come before everything else.

DC: There are a lot of Canadians who do what you did, go on a family vacation, go for a bit of fun, go with the kids, go to an all-inclusive. What do you want people to know that you've learned?

SG: I think, I think that the biggest thing is, what's going to happen in an emergency, right? Like, you know, I, I mean, I can't speak to other people's experiences, but in terms of my own, you know, I really wish I knew about those types of, like, what the response of a resort would be if I called in that situation. And, you know, would there be help? Would there be something like, you know, that, that's what I would want to know.

DC: You believe you were failed?

SG: I believe that this did not have to happen.

CH: That was Stephen Gougeon speaking with Metro Morning host David Common. Mr. Gougeon has filed a lawsuit, after his wife and son died after falling ill at a resort in the Dominican Republic. A spokesperson for Air Transat told the CBC that they are "deeply saddened" by the deaths of April and Oliver. The company denied the claims in the lawsuit, adding it chooses its suppliers "with great care" and the hotel operator has assured Air Transat of "its full co-operation" with authorities.

[ambient electronic]

RFKJ Nomination

Guest: Rob Davidson

CH: There are any number of reasons to be skeptical of Robert F. Kennedy Junior's appointment as U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services. And Democrats have been busy calling attention to them all week.

SOUNDCLIP

RON WYDEN: Mr. Kennedy has embraced conspiracy theories, quacks, charlatans.

CHRIS MURPHY: You've spent your entire career undermining America's vaccine program.

MICHAEL BENNET: Peddling in half-truths, peddling in false statements.

ELIZABETH WARREN: The bottom line is the same, Kennedy can kill off access to vaccines and make millions of dollars while he does it.

CH: Democratic Senators Ron Wyden, Chris Murphy, Michael Bennet, and Elizabeth Warren, questioning RFK Jr. -- who faced a confirmation hearing before the Senate Health Committee today, and the Senate Finance Committee yesterday. But it's not Democrats the nominee has to worry about. Like all of Donald Trump's cabinet picks, his confirmation hinges on whether his detractors have any chance of swaying Republican senators. And Rob Davidson hopes they do. He's an emergency room physician in West Michigan, and the executive director of the progressive advocacy group the Committee to Protect Health Care. We reached him in Boston.

NK: Dr. Davidson, what we heard from Democrats there, does that cover the list of concerns that you have?

ROB DAVIDSON: Well, it certainly covers some of the concerns, and probably some of the bigger concerns about his conspiracies that he's been profiting off of for seemingly, you know, years or decades now. And he's built a career. And again, made millions, and continues to make money, off of a lawsuit suing over Gardasil, which is a safe vaccine that's highly effective and prevents cancer. And so, yeah, I think the senators in those clips are really spot on.

NK: Republicans, as you know, have a majority on both of these committees that are questioning Kennedy this week, as well as in the Senate. So, do you feel, realistically, you have an actual shot of stopping his confirmation?

RD: I absolutely do. I think, in the end, these senators are representing constituents. I know today we heard Senator Collins in Maine ask about vaccines for lyme disease. And, you know, she's concerned about that. She's a Republican. Senator Cassidy is a physician, and he's concerned about the vaccines. He's asked about that. He also asked him about the basics of Medicaid and Medicare. And Mr. Kennedy did not understand what those programs actually did. He needs to understand this and stand up for that. And these senators know the people in their state need these programs.

NK: But if I'm not mistaken, Senator Cassidy has not said outright that he will vote against RFK's confirmation. So, does that concern you? I mean, do you have plans to, to continue to speak with him and try to persuade him to make sure that you're on the same page?

RD: Yeah, I know that doctors in his state of Louisiana have done that. And I'm encouraged by him questioning RFK Jr. on these issues, and bringing up his concerns publicly. You know, there's 300-and-some million people in this country. There has to be somebody better. We know that whomever they eventually put in that place isn't going to agree with us on everything. But on the basics of vaccines and public health, like, to me, that is a very low bar. And I, and I hope and think that enough of those senators will agree with that.

NK: One of the things he's discussed quite a bit has been chronic disease. I want to play a little bit of an exchange between RFK Jr. and Senator Susan Collins. Let's listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSAN COLLINS: I agree with you that there needs to be more focus on chronic diseases like diabetes, like Alzheimer's. But it concerns me when I read a quote from you that says, I'm going to say to NIH scientists, God bless you all. Thank you for your public service. We're going to give infectious diseases a break for about eight years. Don't we need to do both?

ROBERT KENNEDY JR.: Yes, absolutely, Senator. The problem is there's been an imbalance. We've devoted all of these dollars to infectious diseases and to drug development. To make NIH an incubator for the pharmaceutical industry and very little of chronic disease. Chronic disease is 92 per cent of deaths in our country. It's nine out of every $10 we spend on our budget. Why aren't we devoting at least equivalent studies to determining the ideology of our chronic disease?

NK: Doctor, what do you hear when you hear that clip?

RD: I do hear him when he says an eight-year pause. I mean, we have H5n1 bird flu that could be the next pandemic, or something we've never even dreamed of in the next eight years. And I, I hear him create an either-or scenario. While he says, yes, we need both, what he's saying with putting a pause is we've got to do this or this. And Senator Collins is saying, appropriately, can't we do both? And, and, frankly, [chuckling] it's sort of offensive to all of us who are out there taking their patients to suggest that we don't talk about people with chronic diseases. I'm an emergency physician, and I even talk to my patients about the lifestyle choices they have made with smoking or exercising, diet. So, I think he sets up a false dichotomy that, that we shouldn't accept.

NK: What would you say, though, to, to Americans who are not anti-vax? They believe in vaccination wholeheartedly, but they are concerned, and they agree with his assessment that there's an imbalance in terms of the focus. Is what you're saying there there is no imbalance?

RD: Oh, I think we absolutely need to focus on chronic disease management. But we also understand that 90 per cent of health care outcomes are not based in health care. They're based in, in the social structure of, of, of the communities in which people live. You know, former first lady Michelle Obama attempted to improve the school lunch program by having, you know, healthier choices. And in 2014, you can find the articles by so many Republicans she was called a socialist for trying to tell kids what they should eat. And now, he's saying the same thing. And we all agree. We should have those healthier options. We shouldn't have food deserts in this country like we do. That does require the government to intervene and to make investments. And I haven't seen anything from this new administration or Mr. Kennedy to suggest they want to do that.

NK: Your organization says you have more than 18,000 signatures from physicians who are opposed to this confirmation. You've also made it clear that you're not going to make those names public. Why was that part of the equation important to you and necessary? What, what should we take from that?

RD: I think it's honestly a safety issue. There was another letter put around by public health folks, and a lot of those people were docs. They have called made to them saying can you take my name off? And we said, it's a different list. You have to talk to these other folks. And, frankly, we saw our current president pardon 1,500-plus, you know, people, at least 200 of which committed violent crimes on January 6th of 2021, and he pardoned them. He basically said political violence is okay as long as you're doing it on my behalf. So, we will not waver on that.

NK: What will you and all of those doctors do, the doctors who have signed on to your letter, what will you do if Robert F Kennedy Jr. Is confirmed as health secretary of the United States?

RD: We will marshal those, the energy of those folks, and try to defend our Medicaid system, which frankly, is, it appears, republicans who want to lower taxes for billionaires. To them, it is a pot of money that they can take from to get money to the richest among us. And we're going to use the energy and those voices to try our best to defend that program, to let folks know that that program is essential, and people who vote against it, particularly in, in House districts that will be up for reelection in a couple of years, those folks who they need the votes from, well, understand how they voted to cut that Medicaid, you know, if that time comes. And so,. Yeah, I think it's an uphill battle, I think. But it's, it's a battle we're fighting. And I told my kids that, you know, we don't just fight the fights we know we can win. We fight the fights that are critical and need to be fought.

NK: Dr. Davidson, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RD: Thank you very much.

CH: Dr. Rob Davidson is the executive director of the Committee to Protect Health Care. We reached him in Boston, Massachusets.

[glassy guitar riff]

Parliament Poet Lauriete

CH: Politicians spout a lot of words in our federal legislature. And those words provoke deep, emotional responses in Canadians. But the terms "parliamentary" and "poetry" rarely find themselves in close proximity. For most of us, anyway. But for Chimwemwe Undi, bringing Parliament and poetry together is her new job. Yesterday, the lawyer and poet was officially proclaimed Canada's 11th Parliamentary Poet Laureate. It's a role she's already held for the city of Winnipeg, her home town. Here she is, with a reading of Winnipeg Poem from her Governor-General's Award-winning collection, Scientific Marvel.

Reading:

[snappy piano]

CHIMWEMWE UNDI: One, a reference to the famously frigid winters, often by way of reference to winter clothing or activities. Two, for obvious reasons, the phrase "Prairie sky". Three, lamenting, general. Four, lamenting, winter Specific. Five, invoking John K Sampson, explicitly or by prosody. Six, a reference to the history of the name Winnipeg being murky water. Seven, a passing reference to Indigenous peoples broadly posts 2015 apologetic in tone. Eight, a mention of local flora, typically in metaphor. For example, lilac, choke cherry, birch, milkweed, Saskatoonberry, thistle, goldenrod, Prairiegrass, etc. nine, a mention of local fauna, typically in metaphor. For example, deer tick, black fly, skeeter, cankerworm, pigeon, crow, etc. Ten, a reference to the forking of the Red and the Assiniboine rivers, and/or to the forks. Eleven, a reference to Salisbury House, Sals, and, pre-2019, Stella's Restaurants. Twelve, Portage and Main, and/or Confusion Corner, and/or The Golden Boy. Thirteen, invoking Guy Madden's My Winnipeg, explicitly or in tone. Fourteen, grain, etc.

CH: Canada's new Parliamentary Poet Laureate, Chimwemwe Undi, with Winnipeg Poem-- recorded for CBC Radio's Ideas last year.

[plucked instrumental]

DNC Leadership Vote

Guest: Faiz Shakir

CH: The Republicans have been back in power in the U.S. for less than two weeks. And two days from now, their main opposition will take its first steps in deciding how to respond, as the Democratic National Committee chooses its new leader. Ken Martin of Minnesota and Ben Wikler of Wisconsin have emerged as front-runners. But progressive Democrat Faiz Shakir is a late-comer to the race. He's a former Bernie Sanders campaign manager and national political director of the ACLU. We reached Mr. Shakir in Washington, D.C.

NK: Faiz, the vote is coming up this weekend. You entered this race with just two weeks left in it, while others have been campaigning for months. As you well know, you knew all of that going in. But what made you decide that this is what you needed to do, and why did you decide to do it so late?

FAIZ SHAKIR: [chuckling] Well, I had been listening to the other candidates who've been campaigning for this position for many months. And I felt let down by the lack of ambition, and the nature of the way in which they were campaigning. They were arguing about, you know, state budget committees, and who's going to sit on what committees, on line items, and this thing and that thing, vendor contracts. And I said, woah, woah, woah, guys, there's bigger fish to fry. Whatever you want to have as a conversation internally, the biggest fight we have to have is externally with the public. What are you going to say to working-class people about why they should be Democrats again? So, I jumped in and I said I got a few things I want to add to this conversation.

NK: What are you going to say to working-class Democrats if you get this job?

FS: I do believe most working-class people are going to feel let down by Trump and his billionaire co-presidents, who want to basically abuse government and exploit it. We're already seeing that with Medicaid, cuts to health care, no interest in caring about others. People are frustrated. They say, well, who's going to stand up to it? And it's historically been the Democratic Party who does do that, who has, who created Medicare, or Medicaid, or Social Security. So, in this moment, to my mind, our power is people. You have to open our doors, find ways to bring people in, grow our ranks, kind of a people-powered organization. I don't hear an ambition of how you turn the Democratic Party into something that regular, ordinary people are associated and affiliated with.

NK: In the last campaign, when you think about why your side lost to Donald Trump again, you don't think that they addressed in the campaign, Kamala Harris, and the others, and the party apparatus, they didn't try to draw that, that distinction and show who was better for the country?

FS: Well, they certainly didn't draw the distinction strongly enough about taking on corporate power. Who is willing to stick their necks out and be with us when we go on strike? When we organize, you know, in our workplace. When we are fighting corporate monopolists to start a small business. Whatever the economic justice fight might be in their local communities. And it was true in this last campaign that if to the extent that you want to take out corporate power, you might have been more appeased by Donald Trump, who's saying, I will, I'm going to tariff, impose tariffs on corporations, not as much from our side, who, who could have and should have been arguing that we are credible to take on.

NK: Well, he, he --

FS: Big monopolists.

NK: Convinced voters. And the campaign, the Republican campaign, appears to have convince voters that they are looking out for the little guy, and not by underlining the things you're underlining. You ran Bernie Sanders' campaign in 2020. You're identified, you know, as connected to the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. And there are people in your party who, who think it's already moved too far to the left. And that's what got them this second loss.

FS: Yeah, they're confused about the ideological spectrum that people are on. It's not left-right. It's whether you are cozy with corporate power or you're willing to take on corporate power. And I believe strongly that the vast majority of people, even many working-class people who voted for Trump, thought, well, hey, maybe he might disrupt the status quo. Maybe he will go, if I'm losing my job at John Deere, or Master Lock, and they're shutting down, they're moving my jobs to Mexico, maybe he will disrupt the status quo, and impose tariffs, and try to save my jobs. They weren't crazy to think that. But I would argue that the Democratic Party's long history and lineage, and even in the administration, the Biden administration's, record there was the first administration ever filing lawsuits to bring Google to court, Amazon to court, opposing a Kroger and Albertson's merger, supporting striking workers. And yet, most people did not even know that those things were going on because in the course of our campaign, we chose not to highlight the friction that we're in.

NK: Politico wrote that you don't have the, in their view, the marquee name to bring in the kind of support and donours that would be needed. They said, quote, ultimately, you may be better suited as an executive director or CEO in the party organization. How do you respond to that assessment of, of whether you should, you should get this?

FS: Yeah. Well, I appreciate the, [chuckling] the thought from Politico. I will just remind you that, you know, I ran the ACLU, and this is in 2017. We grew our membership from 350,000 to 1.8 million small-dollar donours in a year. When I ran Bernie Sanders' campaign, we had more small-dollar contributions, hundreds of millions dollars, than all of the other candidates combined. I have run budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars in both those organizations. And I have believed and, and have shown a record of, you can grow a small dollar universe base. You don't have to rely on wealthy capitalists to fund your party. You do not give money and try to water down what we need to do for working-class people.

NK: Whether you win the leadership or not, ultimately, Faiz, what's your message for Democrats or independents right now, who are genuinely frightened about what this administration is rolling out right now, and they don't know what to do?

FS: Well, it's always darkest before the light. And I do believe we're in a dark period where the values of greed and selfishness are on full display, the values of exploitation, corruption, cheating, lying. I don't think that's where the vast majority of Americans want to be. You're looking for politicians, leaders who care about service to others beyond themselves. And I think, hopefully, the message for us is that we are exemplifying that. We are going to tell you a vision of society that can and should be different with conviction and with authority. It is possible.

NK: Who do you think, Faiz, should be the next Democratic candidate for president?

FS: Well, I think we got a lot of good ones. I'm glad that right now, a lot of people are saying, I want to be a working-class party. Great! I've been waiting for this for, for a long time, you know? I want a lot of people to compete to be the next Bernie Sanders. Quite frankly, I don't know who that would be. But I've always loved Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez. I love, you know, across the board, you have people like Chris Murphy, Senator Chris Murphy. You have, you know, a whole host of, like, members of Congress, Pat Ryan. I also think there's a possibility these labour leaders like Shawn Fain, and people are head of the United Auto Workers, and other people. A lot of people are skeptical of politicians. So, I'm hopeful that even outside the political universe, there may be people who want to throw their hat in the ring coming from a different walk.

NK: Faiz, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

FS: Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it.

CH: Faiz Shakir is a candidate to lead the Democratic National Committee, and the founder of the non-profit media outlet, More Perfect Union. We reached Mr. Shakir in Washington, D.C.

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