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Crime Story Episode 52: Derek Doneen

Host: Kathleen Goldhar

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The first podcast I ever produced was Escaping NXIVM in 2015. It was about a destructive cult and its coercive leader Keith Raniere. Working on the podcast gave me insights into cults like I'd never had before. But even today, nearly ten years after Escaping NXIVM came out, I'm still surprised by the way people can get caught up in cults and how leaders can hurt their followers. Take, for example, the story of Miranda and her sister Melanie Wilking. The two talented dancers had built a successful career on TikTok. Their routines were fresh and fun, and they started posting just as the trend to follow dancers on TikTok took off. It all seemed kind of perfect -- as it only ever does on social media. But all that came crashing down in 2022, when Miranda's parents and her sister posted a video on Instagram alleging that Miranda had been indoctrinated into a cult.

SOUNDCLIP

MOTHER: We have not wanted to spread the drama, and we've not wanted to talk about this because we don't know...

FATHER: If they're capable--

MELANIE: If she's going to get punished because of what we're doing.

MOTHER: Right.

MELANIE: Which, when we read up on cults and stuff, is the case.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Miranda had been super close with her family, but that would all change. After she got new management, Miranda would come to sever all ties with her family. And her parents would learn that they were far from alone. This saga is all laid out in the Netflix documentary Dancing For the Devil: The 7M TikTok Cult. I'm joined today by the documentary's director, Derek Doneen. I'm Kathleen Goldhar, and this is Crime Story.

[Music fades out]

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Derek, welcome to Crime Story.

DEREK DONEEN: Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: We've done a few episodes of Crime Story where my age gets disclosed because [laughs] of something that I had never heard of before. And this certainly was something that I had never heard of before. I mean, let alone this trend of dancing on TikTok. But I have to say, like, as soon as I watched the documentary, all of a sudden, my TikTok and Instagram was full of dancing couples. [laughs]

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah, the algorithm will [indistinct] weasel its way in there and get you, but...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Exactly.

DEREK DONEEN: But actually, I, I don't have a TikTok myself. I never even downloaded the app while I was making the show. And then [KATHLEEN: Really?] was [indistinct] better or worse. Yeah, really. So, um. But I think, I think, and I hope we, uh, we represented it faithfully.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Well, you certainly gave me some real insights into those generational issues, social media, all that kind of stuff. But I think to get into the conversation we should really start with the Wilkings themselves. So, how do they connect with this story?

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah. And it's a good place to start, because it-- you know, you said you'd, you'd not heard of this. And they're, they are sort of the access point to the story for most people, including me and our team. Yeah, I'd not heard of this story until the family made this video. Um, Miranda's parents and her sister, Melanie, did an Instagram live over the course of about an hour, just explaining the whole situation. You know, We've lost touch with our daughter, our sister. Um, it's been over a year. We haven't heard from her. Birthdays, Mother's Days, holidays, Christmas have come and gone, and she's changed her number. She's changed her email. Um, we see her posting every day but we have no way of getting in touch with her. And we think she's under the control of this religious leader in this high control, cult-like group and we don't know what to do. You know, we've sort of tried everything. We exhausted our resources, gone to law enforcement. We really have no recourse, so we're going public with the story in hopes that it might lead to some ideas, and maybe there are other people going through something similar.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So how did she find her way? Because you mentioned that this cult, this group... it's complicated. Because it's a, it's a sort of a management organization, but it's also a religious organization and it's headed up by one guy. So can we kind of break it down? Like, what is 7M?

DEREK DONEEN: So, 7M is the management company. The leader, Robert Shinn, has been sort of running this church called Shekinah Church -- a very small, sort of highly controlled group -- for roughly 25 years. This is something you find out at the end of the first episode when you realize that it actually goes much deeper than the last couple years and the 7M management company. So he's been running this, this church. And along the way, you know, as many people who are in these positions of power, craving more and more power. Um, you know, he was looking for a way to get famous. Um, simply put. He was looking for money and fame and power. And he tried his hand at producing movies. He tried to sort of manage the acting career of some of his members, the singing career of his daughter. And none of these avenues really panned out. And during the pandemic, his son, Isaiah, had started getting really good as a videographer. Um, and specifically in the dance community was, was making videos, really high-production-value videos, with a lot of these young dancers. One of whom was a guy named BDash, who is really big in the krump community. Krump is a style of dance that he really excelled at. And he had just come out of another high control cult-like group that-- whose leader was arrested. Um, and so he was vulnerable and sort of looking for a community, you know. And um, so he met Isaiah and they started working together, making videos together. And shortly after that was invited to, you know, Bible studies and services. And he started bringing his group of dancers in with him. He started dating Miranda Wilking, who we just talked about. He brought in this guy named Nick Raiano, who goes by RainO. Um, and these were all friends of his. And they sort of formed this very tight-knit community that um... you know, nobody sets out to join a cult, right? That's, that's not really a thing that, that people want for themselves. But when you come to Los Angeles in pursuit of a dream as an artist or dancer, it's highly competitive.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Right.

DEREK DONEEN: And in this day and age, you have to have a presence on social media. You know, they look at that in auditions now for dancers. And so, it's, it can be quite isolating. And so here, all of a sudden, these dancers are coming together. They're, they're sort of living in the same houses, they're getting to create with each other every day. And they don't have to worry about all the other things. They don't have to produce the videos, they don't have to pick the music. They don't have to even pick the outfits or the locations. Someone's doing all of that for them at the highest level. They look great, they sound great. And they're going viral.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

DEREK DONEEN: And on its surface, it sounds great. You know, and I can sort of understand how somebody might be taken into something like that. And then when you have a guy at the centre, a guy like Robert Shinn, who's saying, you know, the more you give, the more tithing that you give, the more blessings you're going to receive, as their star is rising, for them, it's like proof in the pudding that what he's saying might actually be true. And they start, you know, little by little being taken by some of the things he's saying. And so that becomes a very slippery slope, and they descend pretty quickly.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Robert was actually good at what he suggested that they do for content, right? I mean, he had actual, like, successful ideas.

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah, they gave him credit, I think, for being... you know, at a time when everyone was wanting to dance to, you know, whatever song was trending on TikTok, you know, he was saying, Let's dance to old timey music. Put on the Bee Gees, The Beach Boys, you know. And, and for a krumper, especially, you know, if you're familiar with that art of dance, it is raw, it is powerful. It's in your face. You know, so to take these kinds of dancers and have them dancing to, like, more fun, you know, 40- to 50-year-old pop music, um, it was something that people weren't really doing. So that was, that was Robert, and he was picking the songs, you know, and wanting them to wear suits and look really, you know, dapper. And then, [JP: Mm-hmm] and then they were doing it in these, like, beautiful houses in these beautiful locations, and you couple that with the production value that Isaiah brought, you know, there was a slickness to these videos that just made people feel warm. I mean, still do. When you look at the comments, like, people... you know, people are asking questions, but they still are taken by, by these dances and these routines. And I think it takes on a new meaning now, but, um, but, but it worked.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: How did Miranda get involved? Where did that connection come from?

DEREK DONEEN: So she just started dating BDash. Um, you know, [crosstalk] she grew up--

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Oh, okay. So he was already there. Yeah, okay.

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah, she grew up with her sister dancing, Miranda and Melanie as the Wilking Sisters, and they built a huge following together. And it was something they'd done since they were little girls. You know, they always had a dream of growing up and dancing together, performing together. They moved out to L.A., not together, but about a year apart from each other. Lived in the same apartment together. And just really grew the brand once they got out here. And then she started dating BDash. And, um, Melanie was really supportive. Her sister was really supportive, you know, at first. And then as she slowly started getting isolated from her sister and then her family, that's when the red flags started popping up.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Can we talk about that slow sort of step towards the severing? Like, what was going on that you found out behind the scenes that was sort of starting to encroach?

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah, I mean, you know, he, he really does isolate you from anybody not in the group. That's sort of one of the main tenants. You know, you're really not supposed to be talking to your family or friends because you're supposed to die to them. Not just to them, but to anything that you love. You know, you're really supposed to recommit yourself to God and to his word. And the idea is that, in fact, you're saving them by doing this, right. These are people who, because they don't follow his word, are not, you know, going to be saved. They're not going to go to heaven. But you have the power, as somebody who is, to do that. And if you can sort of push them away, ultimately they will come back to you and you will have eternity in heaven with them. So, so that's sort of the idea that they start to believe. Of course, you know, there's the tithing, there's a ten, ten, ten. So 10% management fee, 10% man of God fee -- which is just money that goes straight to Robert -- and a 10% tithing. So 30% of your income off the top is going to the church. You're encouraged to give much more, and those who don't give more are rebuked publicly. Those who do are sort of given more favour. Um, so he would sort of manage the jobs that people were getting and that those who were giving more, he would say, Oh, look at this opportunity. Somebody else might have gotten an opportunity that came in that he just wouldn't tell them about as their, as their manager. So he was sort of always running that manipulation. People are encouraged to sort of report on each other and spy on each other. You're supposed to sort of report every single thing that you do or think to your mentor, which ultimately goes to Robert. So there's this climate of fear, right? People inside the church are afraid to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing because it's going to get reported and they're going to get rebuked or they're going to get privileges taken away. And the better you do, the more you give, the more you're earning, the more, you know, favour you're going to get in the church. You're going to get better cars. You're going to get a better living situation. You're going to get praised publicly at services. And it was sort of this tiered system where you're sort of always wanting to get more favour.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It became a very closed community. Like, their friendships were only from this group. They lived together, they went to church together. They worked together. Like, he closed them down, right?

DEREK DONEEN: For the most part, yeah. I mean, you see in the show, as we dive deeper, I think in essence it becomes a story of these two sets of sisters. [KATHLEEN: Yeah.] So we have the Wilking sisters who we talk about, and then there are the Lee sisters, who are part of that first group. You know, when the church was formed, um, Priscilla stayed until we started shooting. So she was in for 23 years. Her sister got out about ten years ago. And we see the struggle for them to come back together and reform those sisterly bonds. But to answer your question, Melanie Lee was really only able to leave because she had one friend from, from high school, from, from outside the church, who they'd tried to have her recruit in. He didn't join, but they remained friends. And that was, that was really her only lifeline to the real world outside of Shekinah. And when she realized she needed to leave, when she sort of had that awakening, he was the one person that she could call. So that's-- when, you know, when you think about something like this, a lot of parents, especially, are like, I would just go grab my kids. Like, yeah, I'd like go in there and just grab them and say, you're coming with me. But what the experts say is that, you know, the more you push and the more you say the things that they don't want to hear or physically try and move them or, you know, have an altercation, A, that can be against the law and he'll likely call the police and try and press charges for assault. Um, but B, the more you're pushing them away, and the idea is like, when they finally do have that awakening and they say, I want to get out, they want to feel comfortable calling you. Um, and you just need a lifeline. You need to know that you have a safe place to go. And so they tell parents, just keep sort of adding to the shelf, reminding them of good memories, sending love, being there, making sure that those lines of communication stay open. Because they'll just-- the more you try and talk about it if they don't want to, they will just shut you down. And they will wall you out and you will lose all touch. And then when they need somewhere to turn, they won't have you. Um, so that dichotomy is really hard, especially as a parent to try and wrap your head around.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah. And I want to ask you about sort of the parents' part in the story. But before I do that, I want to ask you about Robert himself, because I want to understand his charisma or his course of control. What did you find out about who he was and how he does that?

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah. So it's a good question and it's good to talk more about now. Because in the show, we don't really do a deep dive about Robert. I wanted, you know, to talk through some of the themes that we've been discussing already. Um, 'cause I wanted people to understand-- I think you need context. You need to understand how somebody can get taken by a person like this and how people are vulnerable, generally and specifically in the show, to a con man like this, to a silver-tongued preacher like this. But I didn't want to make the show about him. You know, I think most of the cult shows that I've seen that are out there are about centring the cult leader, um, and understanding their playbook. And...Like, his is no different. Like, the tactics that he [KATHLEEN: Yep.] uses, isolating people from their families and ultimately milking them for all of the money -- and in many cases, sex -- that he can. Like, you know, and since he-- Robert does it the same way as everybody else. And I wanted to really centre the victim stories and make it about them. Robert, what we know about his past life is that he was a medical doctor. Um, and he used that as part of his manipulation. Um, he claimed that he could heal people. There were a few instances, you know, and a couple that are covered in the show where he made somebody's stomach pain go away. Where he made this skin infection sort of disappear. And, and then he would say, This is because I have these powers. Because I talked to God and God shines favour upon me, you know. And, you know, so people saw, like, these sort of what they thought as sort of small miracles, right. But again, I think... I don't know. There's, there's also, to me, there's sort of an enigma and a bit of a mystery. And I think keeping a little bit of that, that mystery around him alive is part of what draws people in.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, I totally hear you on that. And you're right, there is sort of this mystery around him. But at the same time, he really did install this culture of fear and specifically this idea that you would go to hell if you didn't follow his creed. Can you, can you explain more about that?

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah, again, I think this is part of the cult leader playbook. You know, is, is a climate of fear. So there's the climate, and so there's the fear of saying something wrong or doing something wrong and being rebuked in the immediate or having privileges taken away from you. And that is sort of this immediate, ever present fear that those members are living with every day. And in the larger sense, as you mentioned, there is, yeah, the fear of going to hell. Um, which Priscilla describes in pretty graphic detail, at least in the way it was described to her and what that looked and felt like for her.

SOUNDCLIP

PRISCILLA LEE: They describe hell as an abyss and everybody is tortured by their sins on earth. You feel the pain that you did to other people. Some people there's, like, maggots coming out of you, your skin's getting burned. And then it re-heals itself and it starts all over again.

DEREK DONEEN: So that is the bigger fear. And the idea is that he is the only one that can lead them to that salvation. As a man of God, as the person who God directly speaks to, he is the one, that unique person, who carries this message. And I think, again, it goes back to the sort of, you know, Cult Leader 101, is that, like, anybody who promises that they have the answers and they alone have the answers, that is sort of the biggest red flag, I think. And Robert, of course, preaches that and people believe it.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And there was sexual abuse, right? Like, Priscilla Lee was, just... I mean this in the most heartfelt way, but she felt so damaged by her time there. And was just-- it just didn't... It just made me so sad to see. Like, even though she knew being out was the right thing, it was just impossible for her to find her feet. It just felt like that watching her. It was really devastating. And she had a sexual relationship with Robert, right?

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah. Many of the women, um, I'd say most of the women at one point or another encountered him in a sexual capacity, and were forced into situations or into longer sexual relationships with him. Sometimes with others that-- other men in the church that he would force them into relationships with. And you can sort of see with, with some of the dancers how he starts that, you know. And it starts really, really slow in a way that they don't necessarily realize until they are looking back and have a little more context that the way that he was touching them or putting his body on them was wrong. You know, because again, he would use his cachet as a doctor and say, you know, well, I'm just, I'm just giving you a massage because you've been dancing all day and I know the body and I know how to work some of that stuff out. Or, you know, I just, I just need to crack your back, or like, you know, nakedness is no, no problem. Like, we're all God's creatures. You know, and so he would use his position as a religious leader and as a doctor to put women in compromising positions. And it would start really slow, and he would sort of work them up until... and sort of until he had them, like, fully under his control and, and they would do whatever he wanted.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: How did he square, though, the religious, his religious fervour with premarital or outside-of-marriage sex? Like, how did he do that?

DEREK DONEEN: There were certain examples in the Bible where he would say, you know, look at this person who had multiple wives. And at one point when the church almost split over these allegations, his sister actually walked away with a bunch of the women who he'd assaulted. You know, he sort of owned it, and, and he said, I've made mistakes and I'm human, and people make mistakes, and, and asked for forgiveness and redemption. [KATHLEEN: Hmm.] And, um. Again, like, these are people who are so isolated from love and from family. When he's the only person giving them that affection, it's really hard to turn your back on that because you have nowhere to go. And so half the church stayed with him.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So Priscilla was in for 23 years. She did believe the things Robert told her. She did have this relationship with him. What was the thing that finally made her leave?

DEREK DONEEN: She tried to leave a couple times before but kept getting sucked in again. Because when you leave, you often continue to believe the things. And so that fear that you were talking about of going to hell, not being there with him, kept creeping back in and she would run back to him. But I think that the abuse got so bad for her where she would just, she was just locked in this little room all day. It's not that he padlocked her in there, um, but she locked herself away because she had no experience really being out in public, being part of society. So she just sort of locked herself. She put scriptures all over the walls and she would read her Bible. And she would just kind of wait for him to come. And, you know, and at one point, his wife, Hannah, abused her. She came into the room and, and beat her up and tore everything off the walls. And when she came out from that confrontation to see Robert in the house, knowing what's happening, not coming to protect her, that's when she realized that she really had nobody. And if she's going to be living through this hell and the one person that she thought was there to protect her and isn't going to step in in a situation like that, she said, I can't be here anymore. Whatever consequence is going to come to me, I'll take, because nothing can be worse than how I'm feeling right now. So she did. She just left. She put a few things in a backpack and a box and drove right out. Never looked back.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So you had people like Priscilla and her sister Melanie leaving the church on their own, but things didn't really get shaken up until the Wilkings came forward with their video. Can you tell us about the impact of that?

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah, that's really what got, um... it really, as you said, it really shook things up in the church and it got people, especially the dancers, to start asking questions and to start looking a little bit deeper. And then it provided some of that context of, well, maybe that, you know, back rub or that time that he touched me, like, maybe there was something deeper to that. And they all started talking with each other for the first time. As I said, there's this climate in the church of not really talking to each other about what's going on or about the things that are happening to you because you're afraid that you're going to get reported. [KATHLEEN: Yeah.] And you're going to be punished. And so for the first time, a lot of these dancers who see each other every day, who are friends, are now coming together sort of sharing stories, Well, did this happen to you like this? And they start reading some of the articles that are coming out that are quoting former members, and they start realizing that something's, you know, not as it seems. But even then it still takes them time to make that decision to leave. It doesn't happen overnight. It's still a decision they labour over for a while. Um, and, and don't all leave at the same time. You know, I think that's something we don't really cover in detail in the documentary, 'cause we didn't have time to, but, it still took them a little bit of time and they all still had to do it at their own pace. And I think it took about a month for them to make that decision collectively.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But Miranda, who the video was sort of aimed at, doesn't.

DEREK DONEEN: Right. Miranda does not leave, BDash doesn't leave. And I think that's a big reason. They have-- they found each other, and they had love. Um, and BDash is all the way in, you know. And Miranda was getting a lot of favour from Robert. Um, she was kind of the star. Um, Nick -- RainO -- doesn't leave either, and you meet his parents in the documentary as well. Absolutely heartbreaking. You know, they... there's a scene in the second episode where they go and see him. He calls them -- they're actually in L.A. for the interview. And he calls them during the interview. Because they had told him, we're going to be in L.A., right. They said, We're coming to L.A., we'd love to see you. He doesn't respond, and then calls them back while they're in the interview with us. And he says, Meet me at Panda Express. And, um, there's actually a phone call that we couldn't record, because California's a two-party consent state. So we couldn't record this phone call, but it was really aggressive, you know. And, What are you doing here? And, Why are you here? And it was, it was very, like, um, antagonizing. And so anyway, they go, they drop everything. They go meet him. It ends up being kind of a lovely lunch, you know, where he just kind of softens. It's a little awkward at first, but he softens, and they hug, and, and they just come back and collapse into each other's arms because it's like, we finally got to, like, see and touch our son and, and hold him and, and that just made them feel so good. But it's this bittersweet feeling of, like, knowing that he's still there, he's still in, and no matter what they say or do, they, they can't really reach him. And, and those mixed emotions are all kind of coming to a head at the same time and sort of coming out, spilling out. It was just this deeply human moment, you know, where I would just happen-- there are a couple, couple of these moments in the movie where we just happened to be in the room as someone's going through a transformative experience, breaking new ground. And those moments in life are rare. And especially, you know, to be there with a camera. That, that, I think, just speaks to the deep trust that we built with the subjects over many, many months.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, and what was it like for you? I mean, there were some scenes that did sort of-- I realized I was, like, holding my breath. You know, when Priscilla's talking to her parents, and there's a couple others. Like, for me, it was especially hard, like the parental ones, where they're realizing they're, they've lost their kids, or the effort to get them back is still going on. But what was it like for you?

DEREK DONEEN: The two that really come to mind are the ones with Priscilla and her dad, as you mentioned, where she confronts him in Korea for the first time in, you know, 23 years and sort of lays a lot of blame at his feet. You know, You're the reason I ended up here. You abandoned me. Um, and really sort of, like, takes her power back and is-- and really confronts him. And then the scene between Priscilla and her sister, Melanie, where, you know, we've see them try to sort of, like, form, reform their relationship and come back together, but it's been really awkward and uncomfortable and this is that moment where they just, the barriers kind of break down and, and they get really real with each other for the first time.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It really was amazing that scene because Melanie shifts in that scene. What was it that she asks her?

DEREK DONEEN: Well, it was, it was-- they were having an argument about Melanie's daughter's birthday party. You know, Melanie had a two-year-old and Priscilla was going to help her set up for the party, and then kind of bailed at the last minute and didn't end up helping set up, but came to the party, but then came late and left early. And her sister was like, That's, you're just rude. You know, it's rude. Like, that's not what a normal person does. You know, it's okay if you're not going to help, but like, at least call me and tell me, like, I'm not going to help anymore and I'm, and I'm running late. And, and, you know, Priscilla says, You're expecting me to be normal and I'm [KATHLEEN: Yeah.] not, and I'm, I'm still trying to figure out where all this fits and, you know, I either come to your daughter's birthday party or I kill myself. Which one do you want it to be?

SOUNDCLIP

PRISCILLA LEE: [crying] I don't know what it means to care about a child. How can you get mad at me? Look at me, Melanie.

DEREK DONEEN: You know, she was just really going through this tough time trying to recover and figure out who she was and how she fit in the world. I mean, she joined when she was a teenager, having been her younger sister's caregiver through her adolescence because of their, their absent parents. So she never really got a chance to discover who she was, even to really be a kid. But to be an adult and to function in the world and to be part of society. So here she is as a 42-year-old woman, someone who I think had dreams of becoming a mother, sort of realizing that that window's closing quickly and, and she needs to do the work of finding herself in some way.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, that moment was something. Really, really something. Yeah. So some are out, some are in. Where are we with Robert? What has the families who want the kids out, have they done about trying to, like, expose what's actually happening beyond getting their children out? Are they doing anything to try to sort of stop Robert?

DEREK DONEEN: Well, I think participating in the documentary is a big part of that, you know.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Ha, fair. Yeah.

DEREK DONEEN: Uh, knowing that they had tried everything and maybe if millions of people see what he's about, at the very least, it'll prevent others from joining. I mean, we still don't know whether Miranda and Nick and the dancers have seen the doc. Like, we know they've seen parts, but we think he's showing them specific scenes. We don't think they've actually sat and watched it all the way through. We're not sure, but that's the indication we're getting.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, because Miranda commented. We've seen-- I've seen [DEREK: Yeah.] video of her commenting.

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah, but we, we... we think that was written. You know, and we don't know that she has actually watched it. At least at the time that she released those videos, that she'd actually watched the doc. She doesn't talk about any of the specific allegations towards other women or anything else. She really makes it all about her and, um... so I don't know.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But there are some lawsuits going on. I'm just curious--

DEREK DONEEN: Lawsuits, yeah, yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: --about what they're trying to do. Yeah, yeah.

DEREK DONEEN: The lawsuits that we talk about in the show are still moving forward. It's still set to go to trial sometime next summer.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What do they entail? What are the lawsuits about?

DEREK DONEEN: So Priscilla and the dancers are suing Robert for a litany of things. There are a number of charges relating to his control, abuse, and financial crimes, that are listed in the lawsuit.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And Priscilla and a couple of other women have come forward, right, with allegations of sexual assault, obviously hoping that criminal charges would be filed. But nothing has come of that yet, right?

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah. I mean, he hasn't been arrested. So, you know, there's been no movement on that front. It's one of the more shocking things to me, that you can have three women come forward and file police reports and complaints about sexual violence, and while there may not be physical evidence, I know from having, you know, sat on a jury, a sexual battery case, that, that a woman's word is evidence. And the fact that there are three of them, it feels like a pattern that, that is provable. But the burden of proof, I suppose, was not high enough for them to go and make arrests. So, that's still one of the more shocking things to me.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So how did your documentary impact 7M and the church?

DEREK DONEEN: I mean, it's a good question and it's hard to know. I, I'm... you know, because we're, we're not on the inside and we don't know anybody on the inside anymore. I know that, um, it did have a profound impact on the kinds of jobs that the dancers can get because of this exposure. So I know they're hurting. I mean, I can see the kinds of things that they're posting and the ways they're trying to sort of bring revenue in. You know, Priscilla, who does have a lot of insight having been there for a long time, sort of comments on what she's observing and how she knows that they're starting to feel it financially. I just want to say, like, the intention for me was never to hurt the dancers, you know. I, I hoped that they would wake up. You know, that they would see their parents and see that this was coming from a place of love and desperation and, you know, they would actually watch this and think a little bit more carefully about their situation. I think everybody wants to root for the dancers. They're talented. You know, Miranda, James, Nick. Like, these are people who deserve a second chance and who deserve to continue their career and to have all the blessings that he talks about. Like those, those are continuing for the dancers now that they're out, right. Konkrete's been touring with Beyoncé and Aubrey is releasing an album, and like, they're doing these amazing things. That can continue to happen for the dancers who are still in as well. And so my-- that was my hope. My hope was not to make something that would ruin their careers or hurt their ability to earn. Um, but I think it has. And um, and I hope that maybe with that pressure, it will, you know, it will lead to some change. But, I mean, the church continues. I know there've been a couple of people who've left, but the core group has remained and...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Is still there.

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah, I think it's going to take something pretty big.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: We do see in the doc that Miranda and her parents and her sister do have a few meetings, including her sister's wedding. Like, where is that relationship now? What did, what did we see and where are things?

DEREK DONEEN: I think it's always going to be strained until she comes out. I think they want to have a relationship as much as they can. And I think Robert is incentivized to make things look as normal as possible. So he has really, you know, opened things up. They did tell Miranda that they were participating in the documentary before it came out. So none of that was a secret. She talked about feeling really betrayed, but that was all stuff that they'd, they talked about with her and said, you know, we fully participating and, and these are some of the things we're going to say, and here's why. And, um. You know, I think at the end of the day, they want a relationship, with Miranda. You know, Nick's parents want a relationship with him. Um. So, they have one to some degree. I know that the Raiano family was just out in L.A., and I think they got to see him, um, in consecutive days for the first time in more than three years. You know, so there's progress in that way. And there are little, like, moments where they feel really connected. But then there are other moments where they're reminded. Like, they're not invited into his apartment. You know, they're not allowed to see where he's living. And his roommate, meet his roommates and like, sort of go up there and, like, in a normal situation that you, you would with your kid, whom, whom you're close to, right? You know, so I-- but I think that it's still a struggle and they still hope that there will come a day where, you know, they'll call and say, I'm ready to leave and can I come home?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You got to wonder. I mean, Robert is good at PR. Uh, he knows that publicly, if he shows his followers connecting to their family, it can only be a positive thing. So he can probably [DEREK: Yeah.] manage that and manipulate that as well.

DEREK DONEEN: Yeah. Yeah, that's the, that's the idea. That's what he, he tries. I mean, you still see, like if you look in the comments, now that they've, like, reopened them, they closed the comments for a while, but now if you look in the comments, a lot of people are asking questions. And, um, I feel for them. You know, because everything that they post is so heavily scrutinized by the public now and [KATHLEEN: Yeah.] people are continuing to ask a lot of questions. And they, of course, go ignored, but people want to know what's going on and they are rooting for them.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Well, thank you for this. Congrats on the hit, because [DEREK: Thank you.] it's really, was a great documentary.

DEREK DONEEN: Thank you.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And thanks for joining us.

DEREK DONEEN: It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

[Music: Closing Theme]

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. We release a new episode every Monday, so please remember to follow the show in your podcast app. You can get our next episode a week early on CBC Podcasts' YouTube channel or by subscribing to CBC Podcasts' True Crime channel on Apple Podcasts. In addition to early access, subscribers to our True Crime channel also listen ad-free. Crime Story is hosted by me, Kathleen Goldhar. Our producers are Nikky Manfredi and Sarah Claydon. Sound design by Julian Uzielli. Media sourced from Netflix's Dancing for the Devil: The 7M TikTok Cult. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner. Our video producer is Evan Aagaard, and our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Executive Producers are Cesil Fernandes and Chris Oke. Tanya Springer is the Senior Manager of CBC Podcasts and Arif Noorani is the Director of CBC Podcasts.

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Transcript: Crime Story, Episode 52

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