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The Current Transcript for September 10, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SPEAKER: They call my mom a master weaver and she says, No, I am not a master weaver. When you go to the museum, you can see that a master weaver worked on this one. They have so much to teach us still. You can still learn so much.

MG: In museums around the world, there are artefacts taken from other cultures. In Haida Gwaii on B.C.'s westernmost coast, the Haida are trying to bring those treasures home. We travelled there last month to see the work firsthand, and in 30 minutes how the repatriation of artefacts from galleries and private collections is allowing a new generation to learn ancient traditions like cedar spruce root weaving firsthand. Also this morning, almost 40 per cent of women and girls in Canada suffer from iron deficiency. This can lead to fatigue, lack of concentration and anxiety. Coming up, why researchers say a long-awaited change in Ontario in terms of how iron deficiency is measured will change lives across this country. Plus:

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MICKEY BERGMAN: Beginning October 7th, beyond the personal and emotional shock of seeing the news very quickly, I had to jump out of that shock and trauma because I've started getting phone calls from families.

MG: For almost a year, the hostage negotiator, Mickey Bergman, has been working with the families of Israelis taken by Hamas. Negotiations to free those captive have largely gone nowhere. In an hour, the calculus of hostage deals and why he says the United States should now bypass Israel and negotiate with Hamas itself to free the Americans still held. But we begin in fire ravaged Jasper, Alberta, sifting through the ashes of a town. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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How Jasper is rebuilding from the ashes

Guests: Alison Dempster

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BRIAN CORNFORTH: Literally everything that, you know, my mom owned is is gone. And, you know, we're just trying to piece her life back together with the things-- I hope we'll find some things. If not, you know, we still have my mom.

MG: In Jasper, people are coming to grips with what has been lost and what survived. Those people are tackling a big cleanup after a wildfire ripped through the town in late July. It destroyed a third of the community. The latest estimate on the insured damage-- $880 million. That makes it the second most expensive wildfire in the history of Alberta, next to the one that hit Fort McMurray in 2016. The CBC's Alison Dempster went to visit Jasper as it starts on the road to recovery. She joins us now. Alison, good morning.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Eight hundred eighty million dollars is a very big number. With a disaster like this, though, there are losses that you can't really put numbers to.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah, there are some mind-bending figures attached to the Jasper wildfire, but then, as you say, there's the kind of damage you can't quantify. The loss of a family photo album or the Blue Jays jersey your late father gave you or your service medals. And this is the kind of loss people are processing now. They're sifting through the ashes of their homes.

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BRIAN CORNFORTH: That would be where the jewelry box is.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Seeing what, if anything, is left. And this is what Brian Cornforth was doing when I met him, salvaging what he could from his mother's home, the house where he grew up.

MG: What kind of state is that house in right now?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Well, it's in a neighbourhood in Jasper where the fire burned so hot it torched everything in its path right down to the foundations. And I don't know if you've been to Jasper, Matt.

MG: I have. It's... was, is...I don't know how you talk about it right now, but one of the most beautiful places in the country.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah. As a lot of Canadians will know, it's a special place. You know, you've got the soaring, snowcapped mountains, beautiful green valleys. It's postcard stuff. So, even though I'd seen all the news coverage of the fire, seeing it in person is something else. It's quite an apocalyptic scene. You know, you've got the burned-out cars, trees like giant used matchsticks. Heat warped swing sets. And there's still smoke in the air and other noxious smells, you know, mysterious materials off gassing and charred basements. And at Brian's mom's place, the concrete steps are there, but they lead to an open pit of ashes where the house once stood.

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BRIAN CORNFORTH: Gone in minutes, literally vaporized. Every keepsake that she had is literally vaporized. There's just the corners and stucco and a bit of, you know, a bit of the outside yard left.

MG: Vaporized. What is Brian hoping in that state? What is he hoping to salvage for his mother?

ALISON DEMPSTER: A soapstone carving and some jewelry. And when I met him, he was getting help from a crew of volunteers with an organization called Team Rubicon. So, they wear protective gear. They have specialized training for exactly this kind of work in disaster zones. They basically excavate the debris and ashes, looking for any valuables that may have survived. And it's pretty remarkable what they can recover, Matt. They found Christmas ornaments, military medals and jewelry. So, Brian figures as we were standing there, you know, there's a chance.

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BRIAN CORNFORTH: I talked to the crew this morning, and surprisingly, they found wedding rings. And that would be the focus is, you know, my mom's wedding rings are in here with my grandmother's. And it would be really nice to recover those as they were meaningful to her. And maybe we'll find them. Maybe we won't.

MG: So, as he was there with you, is that the first time that he was taking in the destruction of, as you said, this is his childhood home?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah, he'd actually seen it before, Matt. Shortly after it burned, in fact, because he was in Jasper fighting the fire.

MG: Oh, wow.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah. Brian's the fire chief for Parkland County, which is west of Edmonton. So, when he heard his hometown was in trouble, he got his crew and some equipment together and came to help. Now, Brian's got more than 40 years experience fighting fires, and he's been on the ground during some of Alberta's biggest natural disasters, including the floods in 2013 and the Fort Mac Fire in 2016.

MG: So, he sounds like kind of exactly the sort of person that you would want coming to help in a situation like this.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah, yeah. He's the kind of guy who is he's always prepared. He keeps a running risk assessment in his head. You know, he jokes that he's no fun on vacations. And Matt, this wildfire did not surprise him.

MG: Why is that?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Brian had been in Jasper visiting in the weeks before the fire, and the area looked like a tinderbox to him. He says he even warned his mother about it. She's 88 years old and he wanted to make sure she had a go bag ready. And if you look back at data from Environment Canada, he was right about it being a tinderbox. In the first three weeks of July, less than one millimetre of rain had fallen in Jasper. On Sunday, July 21st, the day before the evacuation, temperatures reached 38 degrees.

MG: So, those would be ideal conditions for a wildfire.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah, bone dry, extraordinarily hot. And then, Matt, there was the wind. It whipped the fire into what's been described by firefighters as a wall of flame. So, from the south, it climbed up mountainsides and tore through the valley bottom toward Jasper. Brian remembers being struck by the way the fire moved. It was almost like it drew breath before it entered town.

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BRIAN CORNFORTH: This fire was horizontal and the winds that we experienced, I would say we 120 and plus. That fire just pushed through town. And as it came into town, the drom from the air in the community where all the flags were pointing directly at that fire south. So, it drew that air in. And when it hit town, it just literally blew it across like a blow torch across town.

MG: And so, when he says 120 and plus, he's talking kilometres per hour.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah. Officials have told us that wind speeds hit 150 kilometres an hour. Wildfire experts say it appears this fire was generating its own weather.

MG: I mean, it's hard to imagine what being in the face of that blowtorch would be like.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah. I asked Brian and other firefighters about it, and I think it's something that's hard for them to fully explain. They talk about how the heat and the smoke are almost unbearable. It's hard to see. You're trying to stay alert and not get trapped by the fire and you're making tough decisions about what to try to save and what needs to be let go. And like many of the firefighters, Brian saw Jasper landmarks burned down, including the Anglican Church where he was baptized. He also saw colleagues lose their own homes.

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BRIAN CORNFORTH: You know, the things that are keeping me awake and I just talked to some of my colleagues and we're not getting a lot of sleep right now. And this is pretty normal for us-- is seeing the faces of those people that were here that lost their homes. They did not start stop working on the fire. And just seeing their faces of the emptiness. That will stick with me.

MG: I mean, he's standing there in the ashes with you, but he's talking about what keeps him awake. And it sounds like the memories of the fire are haunting him still.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah. Brian fought to collect himself a few times when we talked about fighting the fire. But he's trying to focus on the next steps. And that is what I heard from a lot of people in town. They want to get on with the cleanup and the recovery and not lose sight of the fact that firefighters managed to save two thirds of the town. And in that part of Jasper, Matt, there's a different scene from the eerily quiet neighbourhood where I met Brian. It's bustling.

MG: That's interesting. What did you find there?

ALISON DEMPSTER: A small army of cleaning crews and contractors. I met Brayton Bjorklund outside a lodge where his restoration company was working. They're dealing with a lot of smoke damage, obviously, but all other toxic fumes and rotting food as well.

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BRAYTON BJORKLUNG: Some of them, you open the door, and it literally hits you in the face. So... In some cases, you need to wear a respirator or masks to even enter the home.

ALISON DEMPSTER: So, then they're washing down every surface, cleaning ducts, installing air purifiers, sanitizing every single kitchen item. You know, it's painstaking work. And this is not Brayton's first rodeo. He also worked on a restoration crew in Fort McMurray after the fire there. So, with climate change related disasters on the rise, he's found himself in a specialized field that's in demand.

MG: How did he get into this work?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Part of what drew Brayton to the work is that he knows firsthand what it's like when a wildfire hits your town.

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BRAYTON BJORKLUNG: It's a little bit personal for some of us. I've been living in Alberta my whole life. I grew up in Slave Lake, Alberta. So, obviously when a wildfire tore through there, we had restoration companies come into the town. And at the time, they kind of felt like superheroes to us. Right? They're the people who come in and clean up the mess, get you back to some semblance of normalcy. So, to me, being able to come into your community like this and help the locals and, you know, put in an effort to actually make a difference, it's more satisfying than any paycheque I've ever had.

MG: So, how long does he think it's going to take to clean up the mess in Jasper?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Brayton figures his company will be on the ground doing renovation work for months, possibly a year. There's just so much smoke and water damage. You know, even if a building looks like it escaped the fire unscathed, the inside can be a different story. And that is the case with Jasper Brewing Company. So, Matt, picture a basement with fridges and freezers that went without power for weeks. So, all that rotting food, along with beer making ingredients, sitting in standing water.

MG: I can only imagine what that kind of strange brew room would smell like.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yes. And Matt, I'm here to report that I don't have to imagine it.

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ALEX DERKSEN: Not the best smell, is it?

ALISON DEMPSTER: It's making my eyes water.

ALEX DERKSEN: Yeah.

ALISON DEMPSTER: It's sort of like garbage dumpster times 30 or... with a hint of musky hops or something in there.

ALEX DERKSEN: That's a good description. That sounds good to me.

MG: That's not a beer flavour that I would be looking forward to.

ALISON DEMPSTER: No, I don't think they're going to try and market it.

MG: No.

ALISON DEMPSTER: So that's Alex Derksen, one of the owners of Jasper Brewing. And not only is Alex dealing with the damage to the brewery, he also lost his own home in the fire. So right now, his life is filled with insurance claims and contractors. The plan is to renovate the brewpub in time for next summer.

MG: I mean, he can laugh about it a little bit, but it's, obviously he's gone through a whole lot. Next summer is months and months away. What does this mean for... I mean, he has staff that would work there.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah. Between the brewpub and another restaurant in town, Jasper Brewing has had to lay off about 80 people. They plan to reopen the restaurant soon, but the timeline is very much in flux.

MG: But there's real urgency to all of this work, right? I mean, you have people's livelihoods that are in limbo right now.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Yeah. And that's the story all over town. Now, in recent days, parts of the park have reopened, and the town of Jasper has posted online a list of businesses that are also open. But so for Alex and other business owners I spoke with, being able to welcome visitors again is key.

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ALEX DERKSEN: We're a visitor economy, we're fully based on tourism in Jasper. And I mean, for us to open our other restaurant down the street, we really need tourism to make that a viable business. And I think that's first and foremost that we'd love to see.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Now, of course, Matt, there's a big complication here. The town has a severe housing crunch.

MG: Where are the people who lost their homes in this fire? Where are they living now?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Well, the town and the province are working on different types of temporary housing. So, local hotels are being reserved for essential workers. That includes people in public safety, education and health care. There's a plan to bring mobile homes into town. And there are more trailers in Hinton, about an hour away. This is a problem that is consuming Wendy Hall's days. She's on Jasper's town council and her own home burned down in the fire. She's been staying in Hinton like a lot of Jasper-ites.

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WENDY HALL: I know there's around 400 families that are just displaced and need homes in Jasper. So, what that looks like I mean? We're Alberta. We are the ATCO trailer capital of the universe. So, I think we'll be okay with what comes to us. Yeah.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Four hundred families. That's not a small number.

WENDY HALL: Yeah, it's not a small number. Yeah, it's definitely not a small number. Lots of residents have already found housing in Jasper. Have already moved in with friends or basement suites. Residents that have the approved accommodations are renting by the month to families. So, I feel like, you know, the east end of town is really filling up with people. Every little nook and cranny in anyone's home has people in it now. And for the rest of us, they haven't quite got there, it won't be long. It won't be long. It's not going to be months and months. I would imagine we'll be back home by winter.

MG: I mean, that sounds optimistic. When you speak with people in Jasper, how are they feeling about the pace that things are moving at and what this road to recovery, given what they've gone through, what that looks like for them?

ALISON DEMPSTER: For many, it's daunting, frustrating and stressful. You know, the community will take years to rebuild. But I also got a feeling of camaraderie there. I stopped by the Jasper Royal Canadian Legion one afternoon, and it's become a real community hub in the aftermath of the fire. There's life music. Various charities are taking turns at the barbecue, and there are free meals for residents. Breakfast, lunch and dinner.

MG: Where's that food coming from?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Donations of all kinds. Non-profits, businesses and farmers are just showing up with all kinds of produce. And it's also where the food bank is operating after its location burned down. Sue Henderson is the mastermind behind it all.

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SUE HENDERSON: And on the front table, we have the chips and some cheesies and more banana bread and coffee and water and hot chocolate and tea.

ALISON DEMPSTER: And how fast are you going through that coffee?

SUE HENDERSON: We go to about 800 cups a day.

MG: Eight hundred cups a day. Keeping people fed and making sure that they're caffeinated is no small thing. Why would she want to do something like this?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Sue told me she felt people needed a place to take a break from cleaning and to reconnect with neighbours. A place to recharge.

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ALISON DEMPSTER: What's your situation? How is your home?

SUE HENDERSON: I lucked out. So, I have my house and my work. So, like, it's like a survivor's guilt. Like, why do I have everything? And they lost everything. So, it's hard. Very hard because I wish it didn't happen. But it did. And... But we're strong. We work, Jasper will get together, we rally, we'll figure it out.

ALISON DEMPSTER: So, it's going to be a long haul. But Jasper is not a place that's short on community spirit.

MG: The people who come together at the Legion, what did you hear from other people there? What else is on their minds?

ALISON DEMPSTER: For many, the most pressing issue is where they're going to live over the next few months. But people were also there just to check in on neighbours, find out who was back in town. I met Calvin Feniak at a picnic table on the patio. He's born and raised in Jasper, and he told me some of his friends have decided not to return. They can't afford to stick it out through the rebuild.

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CALVIN FENIAK: Like my house is fine, thankfully. Very thankfully. But to, like, I know I have a lot of friends who lost everything. And yeah, I don't blame them or judge them for deciding to move on. You know, cut ties. That's totally understandable to me. And you know, it's a hard thing to see your friends leave here. And, you know, like, they're not coming back. They're gone.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Calvin is staying without hesitation. He says he doesn't want to give up on his hometown. It's just going to take some time to rebuild.

MG: What is that rebuilding going to look like? I mean, as people get set for that, are there conversations in the community about what it should look like and what lessons the town would take from the fire?

ALISON DEMPSTER: Brian Cornforth, the fire chief we heard from earliee, sure hopes so. As he put it to me, 'We need to get real about what we're witnessing.' And that is hotter, drier conditions that produce more fires and fires that move with incredible speed and intensity. And he argues what happened in Jasper can happen in other mountain towns like Banff, just down the highway.

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BRIAN CORNFORTH: Jasper is a world destination. The world is watching us. Let's make some learning and value out of that, what our experience is, and reasonably respond to that. So, fire resistive design, mitigation of fuels around communities and really spend the time looking at this. And I hope through what we learn here, we don't repeat it in another community.

ALISON DEMPSTER: Matt, I've spoken with wildfire and forestry researchers who are keen to get on the ground. They want to learn all they can about the way this fire behaved in different types of forest, and what more it can tell us about the way climate change is supercharging wildfires in western Canada. So, it'll be interesting to see what they find. But for now, for people in Jasper, the nitty gritty cleanup work continues.

MG: What about what we heard at the beginning of our conversation, the digging that was going on? Did they find the wedding rings that Brian was looking for?

ALISON DEMPSTER: They found his mum's charred jewellery box, but no rings, sadly. Brian figures they just melted in the heat. But, Matt, that wasn't the only recovery mission he was on during his visit to his mother's property. Brian says she's a passionate gardener and she wants to try to salvage a few of her favourites and plant them in his garden. And incredibly, amid all the destruction in her yard, plants are already greening up. There is still life in her flower beds. So, Brian is helping her transplant white lilac, her paeonies and her bleeding heart.

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BRIAN CORNFORTH: She'll be pleased to see that growing again in the spring. That's the renewal.

MG: Alison, thank you very much for this.

ALISON DEMPSTER: You're welcome.

MG: Alison Dempster is a CBC producer based in Calgary. Your CBC News is up next. And then we take a trip to the Haida Gwaii Museum.

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The Masters are in the museums, the old pieces that we learn from, right? We're literally, literally putting ourselves back together. We're bringing our ancestors home. We're finding information and archives and recordings in archives. We're finding our belongings and learning from them.

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MG: It is estimated that there are more than 12,000 Haida artefacts in museums and private collections around the world. In six minutes, how bringing some of those artefacts home is helping to revive ancient Haida traditions. More from our travels to Haida Gwaii coming up after the news. Also on the way, Ontario has changed guidelines for how doctors measure iron deficiency. We'll talk about what this means for people who were previously told their iron levels were just fine. I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. Back after the news. Stay with us.

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Bringing home Haida Gwaii’s treasures

Guests: April Churchill, Nathen Peck, Nika Collison, TaangGunaay Grinder

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. The Haida Gwaii Museum is right on the beach in Skidegate. It's a series of wood buildings with big windows overlooking the water with a small island off in the distance. Six totem poles face out to the ocean. Inside the museum is filled with art and artefacts, but it's estimated that there are more than 12,000 Haida belongings in museums and private collections around the world. And the people in this museum are slowly bringing some of those artefacts home. The items coming back are breathing new life into ancient traditions. April Churchill navigates her walker over the pebbles. She's visually impaired and has had a stroke, but she knows what needs to be done when it comes to lighting a fire on the beach.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: We need a good bucket to end this.

MG: Nathen Peck works at the museum.

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NATHEN PECK: Little bit of a flat area.

He's in charge of getting this fire going.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: Wherever the fire is going to be, right there, I'm just going to sit on this chair.

MG: April turns her walker around and sits on the seat, as the flames start to build.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: Doesn't she sound pretty?

MG: April is feisty, with a wicked sense of humour.

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MG: You are now, as an elder yourself.

APRIL CHURCHILL: How dare you?

MG: Well, after that I didn't ask her age. I'll just say that April has lived on Haida Gwaii a long time, and she's learned many of the traditional ways from her mother and grandmother. And now she's passing them along.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: Do we have a route?

MG: She teaches a course here at the museum about how to weave the roots of giant spruce trees into baskets.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: This is just perfect; I can hear it.

NATHEN PECK: Yeah. It's got that [unclear] thing.

APRIL CHURCHILL: Yes.

MG: Today she is demonstrating how to prepare the roots for weaving. The first step, the ones she gathered yesterday go into the fire.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: And it's tricky. The root will tell you it's ready. It makes kind of a woosh sound. It's getting ready. Can you hear it?

MG: The root is ready.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: It goes in the spirit.

MG: Wow.

MG: April pulls it through a split in a piece of wood and the other bark is stripped off in one pull.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: The outside of this root has to be rounded and shiny. The inside is flat and kind of fibrous. And the outside of the root is what you see when you look at a basket.

MG: Then she puts one end of the root in her mouth and starts splitting the root down the middle.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: I feel bad that you can't case this and smell it. It's so yum.

MG: Sitting next to her on the pebbles, is Nika Collison.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: You have to lay your gum roots there.

MG: She's executive director and curator at the museum.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: That's how we're not supposed to do it.

NIKA COLLISON: This is me splitting down the half. I can't do that on my teeth.

APRIL CHURCHILL: Once you figure out how to do it, but it's hard to do, to figure it out takes patience like mad.

MG: She doesn't quite have the technique right, but she's learning.

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NIKA COLLISON: If it's thicker, I can do it. But when they get this thin...

APRIL CHURCHILL: I like the thin root better than...

MG: Nika is one of the people here at the museum who's working to bring Haida artefacts and ancestral remains back home. She's working with museums, galleries and private collectors from right around the world.

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NIKA COLLISON: Yeah, you hear stories of people that grew up in Victoria or grew up in Montreal or grew up in Ottawa, Vancouver, and actually for a long time they might have had more access to our belongings. They had access to their belongings off island, then here. Hey? But how important that was that made them feel connected. Also, they're good for education so people can learn about us, people that might not come to Haida Gwaii. Right? So, our elders were saying it's important that what we should do is bring home the best examples, not exemple, but examples of our full-- they didn't use this word but are full spectrum of our material culture. Hey? You know, as long as we have self-determination over our belongings that do remain in museums externally, then that's okay because it's our decision what does come home. It's our decision what stays. It's our decision how it stays in those institutions, how the stories are shared. So, it's all about self-determination and having the ability to uphold your responsibility to your belongings, which are relatives to your ancestors. And it's really like Haida time.

NIKA COLLISON: Okay, so what do you think is the bottom one, again?

I think the bottom one is a watchman or something.

MG: Inside the museum, visitors wander through the exhibits. There are baskets, clothing masks and giant totem poles.

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CHILD SPEAKER: And then, right here, there's a beaver.

NIKA COLLISON: Yeah, that is definitely a beaver.

CHILD SPEAKER: Because there's the tail.

MG: But just around the corner, there is a stark reminder of all the things that aren't here. Hundreds of photographs cover a wall.

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TAANGGUNAAY GRINDER: So, what this is and like what we're looking at right now is these are all Haida artefacts, like Haida belongings that currently aren't in Haida possession right now. And so, these are all items that we are hoping to get repatriated back to the Haida nation and back to our museum.

MG: TaangGunaay Grinder is a summer student. She's known as a decoloniser. She helped create this visual reminder of all the things that are still held in collections around the world.

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TAANGGUNAAY GRINDER: It makes me feel angry, of course. And it's just, it's so disappointing. And it's just heartbreaking because it's like, such a process to get these items back. It's unlikely you just ask for them and they can give them to us. It's like, you have to jump through so many hoops just to get stuff that is rightfully ours and was taken from us back to us even in modern day. And it almost just makes me sick because it's like, it's just not right and it's not fair. And even having something as small as like, just this for people to see like what we go through and how we struggle, like even day to day, like, I think people often have this mindset when they come here that like colonialism and like genocide and like this wrongs that have been done to our people, like, are all in the past. But the lasting effects are still here. And I think what we wanted was this wall to make that obvious to people.

MG: April Churchill says the lasting effects are for the future, too.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: It's important for us to keep the culture alive. If you go into, like, we went to study at the British Museum, I can't remember what year, but when they took things out of the collection and you'd look at it, you could feel the spirit inside of it.

MG: Things from, things from here.

APRIL CHURCHILL: Yeah. Things that they had collected. So, they pulled something out, put it on the table, and I just saw tears would just run. Overcome with the power of the piece that we are looking at and understanding of the spiritual aspects of it. And then I'd look up and there was my sister and my nieces all crying too. They got overcome with that power.

MG: What does it mean to have some of those pieces come back here?

APRIL CHURCHILL: We need those things so people can understand and learn from them, like my mother learned in the museums how to do stuff. There's a six strand weaving technique that she learned at the British Museum because it was a frayed ending at the museum, and she could see how they had put it together. So, she learned that sixth strand weaving technique that we didn't know.

MG: Recently, the museum purchased a cup woven from spruce roots. It's an unusual piece that April hasn't touched yet.

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NATHEN PECK: Here's the, that cup basket.

MG: Nathan brings it out and places it in her hands.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: Oh my gosh.

MG: April gently runs her fingers all over the cup.

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APRIL CHURCHILL: This is a drinking glass. And you see, it's not embellished that much. It has the traditional style of embellishing a basket that the Haida used mostly. [Unclear] use that, too. It's a self weave where you put the design in on top. Spruce roots will expand so it makes it tight. So you could put water in there.

MG: And that'll hold water.

APRIL CHURCHILL: Yeah.

MG: What does it mean to have it back here?

APRIL CHURCHILL: It means that when the kids are making new baskets that we are going to be seeing a lot of these baskets made when we return back to it. And you can feel that the masters, they call my mom a master weaver, and she says, No, I am not a master weaver. When you go to the museums, you can see that a master weaver worked on this one. They have so much to teach us still. You can still learn so much.

MG: I mean, you seemed really, when it went into your hands, you seemed really...

APRIL CHURCHILL: [Unclear,] right? Yeah. It fills the spirit being. That's wonderful.

NIKA COLLISON: See, we're putting ourselves back together. So, repatriation is part of that, right? We're literally, literally putting ourselves back together. We're bringing our ancestors home. We're finding information in archives and recordings in archives. We're finding our belongings and learning from them. You heard April say her mother, Delores, said the Masters are in the museums. The old pieces that we learned from. Right? When we bring home something like that water proof spruce root drinking cup, we're so excited here because we've heard of these drinking cups. And Delores and April have told us that these drinking cups and I'd seen woven cups in museums and was told by the museum people, we didn't do that until we saw China cups and stuff. Hey? But we did. We've waterproof cooking containers, so why wouldn't we have woven waterproof drinking cups? I think if people looked at Indigenous technologies, they'd understand that we probably have a good way forward. I'm not trying to say we have all the answers. Hey? But through the colonialism, it was purposefully put down and made to be thought of as less than. But it's incredible knowledge and I think a lot of answers could really help the world if people trusted in Indigenous ways of knowing and being.

NATHEN PECK: It's time to douse the fire.

APRIL CHURCHILL: This was wonderful. Thank you, you guys.

MG: Tomorrow on the program, more from Haida Gwaii. It is a place with incredible wildlife. We saw more bald eagles than you could possibly count. There were ravens, deer, salmon. I didn't see any sea otters while I was there. But the sea otters are making a comeback to the region. This is a good news story in many ways, and we will tell you that story tomorrow on The Current. Randall Kimball is a Haida singer and songwriter. He's from Haida Gwaii. Lives currently in the Pacific Northwest in the United States. And he sings about missing home in this song. This is Randall Kimball and Haida Gwaii is Calling.

[Music: 'Haida Gwaii is Calling' by Randall Kimball]

Tired? Anxious? You might have an iron deficiency

Guests: Dr. Menaka Pai

MG: Mr. Randall Kimball and Haida Gwaii is Calling. This is The Current on CBC Radio or the CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway. Victoria Harwood started struggling in her first year of college in British Columbia.

SOUNDCLIP

VICTORIA HARWOOD: I was really tired all the time, and my hands and my toes were really cold. I noticed that I was having kind of chronic headaches and in class I would start to get really light-headed. And there's a couple of occasions where I would actually pass out in class.

MG: No matter how much rest she got at night, she felt exhausted in the morning and couldn't figure out what was going on.

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VICTORIA HARWOOD: It definitely took a toll because it is really frustrating not kind of knowing the root cause of it and having it be a behaviour that was so outside of my day-to-day goings, it felt like very just discomforting and frustrating that I didn't feel like myself. And no matter what I kind of put into it, nothing was getting better.

MG: Eventually Victoria went to the emergency department and was diagnosed with anaemia, a condition caused by low iron. By some estimates, as many as 40 per cent of women and girls of reproductive age in Canada are iron deficient and experts say we're actually under-diagnosed in that condition, which is why, as of this week, Ontario has changed its iron deficiency testing guidelines. Dr. Menaka Pai is a professor of haematology at McMaster University and the province's clinical lead for haematology. Dr. Pai, good morning.

DR. MENAKA PAI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Does Victoria's story sound familiar to you?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Absolutely. I see so many patients who come in with these complaints and that feeling of exhaustion and frustration is just far too common.

MG: I want to talk about how common that is in a moment. But tell me about these new guidelines. What are the new guidelines for testing iron deficiency in Ontario?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Well, we know that for years we've kind of passively accepted this historical definition. We tell people that if your ferritin, which is the lab test used to measure iron deficiency, if it's as low as 20 or 15 or six, you're still normal. And that was really based on flawed scientific data that really didn't incorporate the experiences of women and girls and other folks of reproductive age.

MG: So, tell me more about that. Why was that baseline level so low?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Well, it really has to do with what you mentioned right off the top Matt, that about 40 to 50 per cent of women and girls in Canada and actually around the world have iron deficiency. So, when we talk about what's normal, we just assumed that all of these very, very tired people who weren't functioning at their best were normal. And we were incorporating their lab values into the goalposts that we set for iron deficiency. So, I think we were really normalizing something that isn't. And now with this upsurge and really important focus on women's health, we've been collecting better evidence to raise the bar on that lower goal post.

MG: Does that have to do with the fact that this is women and girls? I mean, we've talked a lot in the program about research gaps and what is and isn't known because of who is or is not being studied. Is that what this is about?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that this is an equity issue. So, as so many areas of women's health are overlooked. So, whether it's girls or or women and also gender diverse folks who get pregnant and menstruate, we overlook their concerns and we tell them that what they're feeling is fine. And in Canada, Matt, people at risk for iron deficiency also include other equity seeking populations like Indigenous communities. So, I think that the equity issue is strong. It's a major factor in the challenges around this issue.

MG: And so, the new guidelines are what? I mean, if what we thought was normal is not normal, what do the new guidelines say?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Well, we're using the phrase 'raising the bar.' So, as I said in the past, we've accepted variations that even as low as six in this country, but we have raised the bar to 30. So, if you go in to get your lab work done and you get a ferritin checked, if you are below 30, if you're an adult, 30 micrograms per litre or below 20 if you're a child, then your health care professional will be able to tell you, you are iron deficient. This is not normal. We have good treatments to make you feel better. So, the raising the bar is really setting a higher standard for health and quality of life.

MG: You have said that these new guidelines, this is your language, will be a life changer for your patients. What are they going to mean?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Yeah. So, when we heard Ms. Harwood's story, the toll that iron deficiency takes on people is incredible. And, you know, certainly people that can become anaemic, you know, they can faint. They can end up in the emergency room. But 40 per cent of women and girls are conducting their daily life with milder symptoms, but symptoms that still affect their ability to do what they want to do, Matt, whether that's at school or at work or at home. So, the idea that 40 per cent of people are not feeling their best and oftentimes are dismissed or told that it's okay, the idea that we can change that now with the cheap and easy treatments I think is a life changer. We know that this is going to make our patients feel better.

MG: Because the run on from that is that the patients feel unwell. But when they're told that this is normal or those, they can't figure it out, as we heard from Victoria, she can't figure out what's going on, one of the things I've read that that can lead to is anxiety manifesting itself in those patients.

DR. MENAKA PAI: Very much. So, there's certainly the anxiety of having bad experiences with health care. And I will say health care professionals are, were also told that these low values were normal. But I think also iron has really important functions in the brain. So, when we hear about anxiety, cognitive impairments, brain fog, the iron deficiency plays into that gut feeling as well, frankly.

MG: What do we know about what, tell me more about this, what being low on iron does to the body?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Well, iron's primary function is that helps red blood cells in our body carry oxygen to all of our organs. And so, when you have low iron, even if you're not anaemic yet, that's where that fatigue and weakness is coming from. But iron plays a lot of functions and everything starts to slow down below that level of 30. So, in addition to the cognitive symptoms, the emotional symptoms, we're having, patients complain about things like dry skin and dry hair and brittle nails. And again, they don't have good explanations for why. So, it tells us that iron is doing a lot of things in the body. And if you don't have enough, that's going to impact your function in so many ways.

MG: Again, those numbers are shockingly high, upwards of 40 per cent. Why is it that women and girls in particular would be vulnerable to an iron deficiency?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Well, it very much has to do with another area of medicine that we absolutely overlook. And I think it's something that society really stigmatises and it has to do with menstruation. So, Matt, if you think of iron like a bathtub, you're pouring it in with with pills or with food. But also, if you lose blood, if the drain is open, you can never fill your bathtub. So, we also know that about one in four women and trans men in Canada have heavy menstrual periods. So, no matter how good their nutrition is, no matter how many pills they're taking, they're having excessive bleeding, sometimes bleeding that they don't feel comfortable talking about with their health care providers. And that often, frankly, gets dismissed.

MG: How do these new guidelines in the province of Ontario compare to guidelines elsewhere in the country?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Well, unfortunately, the problem of that low bar for ferritin is really common across Canada and around the world. So, other jurisdictions are still using levels like, you know, 20 and 15 and six. We're hoping that in Ontario we've taken the step. We've actually worked with health care professionals from hospitals and the community and the labs. So, we're hoping that we can be a leader and that by taking this step, we can influence our peers to also make this more evidence based move around the lab values.

MG: In the meantime, as you said, knowing this now, patients will be perhaps presented with treatment options. How do you treat iron deficiency?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Well, it's amazing how easy it is actually met. So, it's twofold. I mean, first, you have to fill the bath tub and that can very easily be done with oral pills, which you can actually get at your local pharmacy. We also know that we can treat patients with IV iron and we're simultaneously working on how to improve access to that. But I think the other part is if people think they're losing blood in an excessive way or an abnormal way, if they think their periods are heavy, that's also something that we can treat very effectively if we talk about it openly.

MG: Are there other options beyond supplements? Because one of the things, I've heard this personally, is that many people will say that the supplements make them feel unwell, that there are side effects that they find hard to deal with.

DR. MENAKA PAI: Yeah, absolutely. And I completely hear that from my patients. I mean, certainly eating a very diet is going to help a diet with iron rich foods. But if you are iron deficient and if you can't tolerate the supplements, that's where something like intravenous iron comes in. And that needs to be prescribed by a health care professional. And again, there's huge funding disparities, Matt, across the country for that. And that's yet another equity issue. If you can't tolerate your pills, you shouldn't just dismiss the iron deficiency. You need a health care professional to advocate for you and help you access intravenous iron, which is also a safe and effective option.

MG: I'll let you go, but just before I do that, just briefly, if somebody who's listening to this across the country suspects that they have an iron deficiency, what should they do?

DR. MENAKA PAI: Well, I hope that they feel empowered after our discussion, I hope they go to their health care professional, they talk about their symptoms. They ask for their options. And they ask to have their ferritin checked and be really confident that the lab tests they're going to get back is something that their doctor can interpret proper. So, ask for that ferritin and get it checked.

MG: Dr. Pai, thank you very much.

DR. MENAKA PAI: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: Dr. Menaka Pai is a professor of haematology at McMaster University and the province of Ontario's clinical lead for haematology. Well, coming up after your regional update:

SOUNDCLIP

MICKEY BERGMAN: Over time, I think more and more families came to the realization that the formula that the Israeli Prime Minister has suggested, not only does it not work, it backfires.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Mickey Bergman is a long-time hostage negotiator. He believes it is possible to control the fate of the remaining hostages held by Hamas. But he says it requires a different approach. Coming up in 90 seconds, why Mickey Bergman is pushing for U.S. President Joe Biden to cut a separate deal with Hamas for the American hostages. That's coming up in a minute and a half. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stick around.

[Music: Fades up]

U.S. could cut its own hostage deal with Hamas: negotiator

Guests: Mickey Bergman

MG: Hello again, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

[Sounds: Crowds]

MG: That's the scene this weekend in Tel Aviv. Huge crowds gathered, wearing T-shirts with the images of the faces of hostages captured by Hamas on the 7th of October. Since Israeli troops discovered the bodies of six hostages in Gaza last week, families and their supporters have stepped up their push for a deal to bring the remaining hostages’ home. My next guest has had an up-close view of those efforts, and he has an idea of how to break the impasse. Micky Bergman is a longtime hostage negotiator. He played a role in the release of many high-profile captives, including U.S. basketball player Brittney Griner and the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. His non-profit organization, Global Reach, works with families directly to help get their loved one’s home. And he joins us now from our Washington studio. Mickey Bergman, good morning.

MICKEY BERGMAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What went through your mind when you saw the news that six hostages had been found dead in Gaza?

MICKEY BERGMAN: It's hard to describe. First of all, I didn't learn about it from the news. I learned about it from conversations before that about 24 hours earlier. Three of these families are families that I worked very closely with. I also know that all six of these did not have to die. They were slated for the first round of exchanges, if and when the deal for the hostage exchanges would have been implemented by the sides.

MG: As this has gone on months and months and months after the 7th of October, what have you heard from the families of those hostages?

MICKEY BERGMAN: Well, I've-- beginning October 7th, beyond the personal and emotional shock of seeing the news, very quickly, I had to jump out of that shock and trauma because I've started getting phone calls from families at this point who were not hostages, was missing people. And very quickly, it came up to about 67 families that reached out to us and asked us to help. And we had to do what we do, which is the first step for us, is that we we have to come up with something called the theory of return. That is the script or the story of the shortest pathway a hostage can come back home. And in this case, we have to base it on three basic assumptions. The first one, Hamas and Israel do not talk directly. Therefore, the deal or any solution of that had to be mediated by a moderator. Number two, there are four countries or four governments in the Middle East that can influence Hamas. None of them can control them. And that's very important to know and to understand. Hamas is an independent, proud Palestinian program. But there are four countries that can influence them in the Middle East, and that's Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Qatar. And as you can imagine, none of these countries or governments have any interest in doing favours to Israel. But at least two of them, Egypt and Qatar, have a vested interest to partner and to work with the U.S. to try and help. Therefore, we knew that the theory of return for us was one, we had to make this issue an American priority at the presidential level. That's the only way that we could get to a deal. Number two was to make sure that once it's an American priority, that the mediators, the Egyptians and the Qataris go to Hamas and solicit a proposal of how to resolve the issue of the prisoners and the hostages. And then if the deal that comes out, the proposal that comes out is even half decent and Matt, those deals are never good. But even if at least half decent, then it was up to the American administration to work with the government in Israel to make it as comfortable as possible, to make a to implement the deal as it's received. And it worked really, really well for 54 days. And I say really, really well, because we got over a hundred hostages back within that timeframe with deals. And it has failed since and that has been devastating. And early on in December, with the same deal that we're talking about now was available. But it became very clear to me, as somebody who's involved in this, that the Israeli prime minister is just not going to do it.

MG: You wrote about this in Foreign Policy magazine, and you said, I mean, in some ways there's a lack of interest in both sides in trying to get a deal. You said that for the leader of Hamas, the rising death toll in Gaza, with its attendant pain, advances his core interests, increases the delegitimization of Israel internationally. And while he is going to great lengths to protect his own life, he'd rather die than give up hostages without securing an end to the war. And for Benjamin Netanyahu, this is again you writing. For his part, he's genuinely not interested in a hostage deal as it endangers his political survival. For the family members, that must, I don't know how you would understand that. It sounds incredibly bleak.

MICKEY BERGMAN: It is. And it is very bleak. And look, families are not, they're not unified in the way they see and think about it because they're not unified in the way that they perceive the world and the information that gets to them. But over time, I think more and more families came to the realization that with Hamas, there's just simply the way they negotiate is very, very different. And therefore, the formula that the Israeli Prime Minister has suggested that says, if we increase the military pressure, we will make Hamas flexible about, with the terms of the agreement. That formula not only does it not work, it backfires.

MG: And so, is that why there has been reporting suggesting that the family members of those Americans who are still held hostage have been meeting with the national security advisor and others, pressing the White House to cut a unilateral deal with Hamas.

MICKEY BERGMAN: Yeah, and look, this is, the article that I wrote, did not come out of thin air. It's as a result of months of work on this, both behind the scenes of trying to understand what is possible and making sure that something like that is feasible. And second, is conversations that families have had with the White House and pushing to different things. But I have to make sure everybody understands the concept of this deal, of the specific deal for the American hostages is not intended in order to let go or leave behind the Israeli hostages. It is just that it is the only way right now to break the stalemate that we're stuck in. And it might open the door to bring the rest of them home.

MG: So, explain what that would look like, this approach, because again, from a distance, it could seem like this is just to get the Americans out and leave everyone else behind. What would this new approach look like that the Biden administration could take?

MICKEY BERGMAN: Yeah, so think about it from-- there's different parties in need that we can dissect in this. But let's focus for a second on the Israelis or the Israeli prime minister. If there is a deal, the indirect deal between Hamas and the United States that is going to release at least the four Americans that we assume are alive still being held there. And it's tangible and it's credible and it's about to happen from an Israeli prime minister's perspective, he's about to be exposed to the fact that his actions have killed hostages. And yet the American president is releasing hostages. Now, we keep referring to them as Americans. They're Israelis as well. So, here it is that the American president is taking action that actually brings a back out for Israeli, Israeli Americans, Israeli hostages alive while the prime minister is sitting by the side and being sidelined. That is politically not feasible for him. And that might be the incentive needed in order to force him to go into the deal that is on the table actually and has been on the table for a long time for the larger exchange. And if it doesn't, at least we get four hostages back home. And then following that, again, the political dynamic in Israel might be one that breaks the camel's back on for, Benjamin Netanyahu's perspective and forces him into the deal.

MG: This would require the United States to negotiate directly with Hamas, an organization that many countries, including the U.S., have designated a terrorist organization. How do you go about doing that? And what would the U.S. have to offer to Hamas that might motivated to specifically release those American-Israeli, Israeli-American hostages?

MICKEY BERGMAN: Yes. So, on the first point, it's actually not direct negotiations, just like Israel does not negotiate directly with Hamas. It's to mediate. It's through the Egyptians and through the Qataris.

MG: But it would be, but ultimately, it's, you know, whatever route you're you're negotiating with Hamas.

MICKEY BERGMAN: That is correct. And it's not it's not unprecedented. The United States has done that in order to get Americans out of other terror groups that have been holding American citizens. As a government, it's your responsibility to do what you can to get your citizens, the innocent citizens, back home. And so, I think that part, it might be politically criticised and there'll be some, you know, some nice demagoguing around it. But essentially, it's not, that's not the challenge. The bigger challenge, I think that the Americans, the White House is facing with this, number one, is the threat that that will be labelled as if it's a betrayal of Israel, which is a real, that's a legitimate concern because in a political season, it will be attempted to be explained that way.

MG: I mean, an election is just a couple of months away.

MICKEY BERGMAN: That is exactly correct. And my argument is that they can handle that. And that should not be the reason why we desert Americans. And the second one, which is probably the most problematic one, is the question of what is it that the United States can offer Hamas in return for its citizens at the end of the day? The United States cannot stop the war and the United States does not have Hamas prisoners. And here's where where, to me, it's the lack of creativity is the challenge. If you're Hamas, and we have to think here, not because we want to legitimize them, God forbid, or anything like that, but we have to understand from their perspective how they look at things. Hamas's objective is the destruction of the state of Israel. Hamas is not going to destroy the state of Israel with people in motorcycles and missiles and try to occupy Israel. They know that. They had October 7th. They had a great success from their perspective. The destruction of the state of Israel for them comes from two routes. One is external delegitimization of the state of Israel that has been extremely successful for them since October 7th, and the second one is internal divisiveness inside the Israeli society. That's how they're going to do that. But the external one is what matters to them. And if there is a prospect of what looks like a Hamas U.S. indirect humanitarian deal, what it suggests to Hamas is that there might be a big tear between Washington and Jerusalem, and that is a strategic, game changing agenda. It might be more for them, four hostages out of 101 that they have for that. Now, the United States certainly is not intended on having this kind of rift between Washington and Jerusalem. I hope the government of Israel is not into this either. But that potential is something that exists there and it can not be articulated by the American government, but it can be articulated by others to make sure that it's explained to Hamas what it is that they can gain from it. Of course, they will want something public that can be some sort of humanitarian aid deal. There might be other things that they can ask for. But the key thing, Matt, and that's the important thing, we don't know for sure what it will cost until we actually ask. And therefore, I hope that the American administration takes this and goes to the mediators, to Egypt and to Qatar and say, we instruct you or we ask you to go and fetch for us from Hamas, what is the best deal possible in order to get the Americans back home and see what comes back?

MG: If this is not about just getting those four hostages out and leaving everyone behind, if it's about trying to get everybody out, how would a deal like this motivate the Israeli government and Benjamin Netanyahu to cut a broader deal? Because there have been enormous protests in Israel, hundreds of thousands of people out on the streets protesting the war, demanding the hostages be brought home and protesting how he has led the government in the course of this war. How would a deal like this force him to do something that his own citizens haven't been able to force him to do?

MICKEY BERGMAN: Yeah, I think, and that's unfortunately, it's a really, really good question because there were about 750,000 Israelis in the streets in the last week or so since the execution of the six hostages, in Gaza. And that doesn't seem to move him and it doesn't seem to move him because he has about three years legally until the next elections. And he believes that in those three years, if he persists, he can recover electorally. But right now, he cannot win elections. And for him recovering electorally, it means that the way he thinks, I don't think he's right about it, but if he does a press conference at some point in the next year and he puts Yahya Sinwar's head on the table, literally, that to him is a recovery from everything that went wrong. He's wrong about that. It's not going to matter, not for him politically and definitely not for Hamas's future or the resistance future in this. But that's where he's locked. And even though he has an opposition in Israel, a political opposition that is willing to give him a safety net to go ahead and do this deal, he doesn't trust them. And that is probably for good reason, because he knows they'll give him a safety net for the deal. And then they'll pull the rug underneath him and go for elections before he's prepared. So, to answer your question, unfortunately the deliver for Benjamin Netanyahu right now, in the next three years or so is not internal. It's not inside the Israeli public. It is much more external. And again, if there is a big rift or potential of a rift between Washington and Jerusalem, and they've been tensions up to now, and I know that President Biden has done a lot in order to try and push Bibi into what is not only the Americans see as a feasible deal to get the prisoners home and to seize the war and to be done with the war.

MG: But he doesn't seem to have moved Netanyahu at all.

MICKEY BERGMAN: That's right. And that's why I'm saying, that's why I'm suggesting that an extreme move on that one in which [unclear] saying, look, we tried everything we could because we wanted to help what we believe is our interests in the Israeli interest. But at the end of the day, we cannot give the life of American citizens to a political calculation, even of an ally. We don't do it anywhere else. We shouldn't do it here. So, we're going to do what is an American interest in saving American lives and make a deal. If it can't be with Israel, we'll do it without Israel. And that is something different. It is something that now has not faced. And look, maybe two months ago, Netanyahu had a clear vision of what will be the results of the elections in the United States. Nobody has a clear vision of what will be the results. And that also needs to change his calculation a little bit. And we can talk a little bit about his perception of what a returning President Trump will do, which I think he's miscalculating as well.

MG: You have played in past, as I mentioned, a role in some pretty high profile negotiations to release hostages. One of those scenarios was the taking of the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit. Hamas released him in exchange for a thousand Palestinian prisoners. Do you think that set a price for the hostages that Hamas is now holding in Gaza?

MICKEY BERGMAN: Yeah. So, first of all, just to have some accuracy, actually it was not a thousand, it was 1100 Palestinian prisoners. And that was a deal that Bibi Netanyahu actually did or concluded, even though the negotiations started with his predecessor, Prime Minister Olmert. And people don't know that. But before the deal was signed there for 1100 Palestinian prisoners, the price was bigger. Actually, Hamas's price when this started was 1100 Palestinian prisoners, plus all the women and children that were held in custody in Israel, plus about half a dozen of Hamas parliament members who were in custody and detained in Israel. But what we did with that back in 2007, 2002, before Bibi came back to power, is that we convinced the Israeli prime minister at the time, Olmert, to release the women and children and to release the Hamas parliamentarians, not to Hamas, but to give them actually to the Hamas rivals as a gesture and therefore take them out of the equation, making the appearance as if the actual deal for Gilad Shalit was less than what it was. And the reason why I'm telling you that story, Matt, and for everybody who's listening to this, because it sets, it makes something to understand how Hamas negotiates, that it's very different than the way the Israelis negotiate.

MG: But if they could get 1100 people out for one person, I mean, I just wonder whether that calculation now factors into how they think about those prisoners, those hostages that they're holding now.

MICKEY BERGMAN: Yeah, potentially. But from an Israeli perspective, what used to be until October 7th, and that was illustrated in the Gilad Shalit deal, one soldier at the time, and it was the responsibility of the Israeli government to get him out. And no matter what the price is, because Israel lost a very tactical combat where he became a prisoner or hostage. And that was our responsibility to, or the Israeli responsibility to pay the price to get him out. But here's the important point. The problem with that, and it's been a very controversial deal in Israel. The problem with the deal is not the price that was paid. It is with what Israel didn't do after the deal was done. Because it's not about how many Palestinian prisoners you released in this, but it's what Israel did not do in terms of deterrence after the fact, something that Israel used to do very, very well before, which is no matter how long it takes, anybody who messed up of Israelis have a target on their head or either to be rearrested or to be taken out if that is needed. And we know now that over the years, the Israeli security apparatus came to the prime minister of Israel, prime ministers over time, not only Bibi, but other prime ministers with opportunities to capture or to take out people like Yahya Sinwar. But it was a strategic decision, political strategic decision in the leadership of Israel not to do that because a strong Hamas was seen as an asset for the Israeli government, because a strong Hamas means that nobody in the world will demand Israel, negotiate with the Palestinians for political solution.

MG: Well, one of the reasons why, and you've hinted at this, that this deal was was controversial is because one of the Palestinian prisoners that was released is now leading Hamas. So, when you think of that and you look back on it, I mean, how do you go about considering and calculating the risk of these deals?

MICKEY BERGMAN: Yeah, there's things that we can look at. And look, it's very complicated because in this work and I've been doing this for 18 years, there isn't a single deal that we managed to get that I can tell you is a pure win because with every win, there are compromises, there are things, there's conflicting values in everything we do. And the collateral one is a very great example of that. We need to calculate what it is that we can control at any given point and what it is that we cannot. And in my calculation in this case right now, we can control the fate of whoever hostages are still alive. We can control that. We still have an unknown of what happens as a result of that deal, but that gives us the opportunity to influence that after the deal is done.

MG: What price do you think Israel should be willing to pay to bring its people home?

MICKEY BERGMAN: I think anything that is not an existential threat to the state of Israel is legitimate to be paid in order to bring its citizens home.

MG: What does that mean? Anything that's not an existential threat.

MICKEY BERGMAN: This means at the end of the day, Hamas wants thousands of Palestinian prisoners released from prison. That's not an existential threat to the state of Israel. Hamas wants the end of the war in Gaza. Let's face it, the war in Gaza has ended. We now have incursions, but there's still an occupation over there, an existence that is not sustainable for Israel. That is, leaving Gaza is not an existential threat to Israel, especially if we're not talking at a permanent situation in which Hamas gets to rearm and nobody does anything about it for the next 20 years, and then we're facing another attack like we did on October 7th. We can control what we can control now. Do the deal, get our people home. And then Israel is free to make its decisions of what is best for it. Of course, in consultations with their allies. But figure out what is best for it. It's not like Hamas is a respectful partner to an agreement. If we think, if anybody thinks that Hamas is going to sign this agreement and not going to try and rearm, then they're fools. And if Hamas is violating the agreement by rearming, then Israel has every right to do what it needs to do in order to counter that. But Israel then does it without the burden of having hostages being held in Gaza.

MG: Just finally, given what you said earlier, that in some ways, neither party here is interested for its own reasons in seeing these hostages released? What hope do you have that the remaining hostages will actually come home to their families?

MICKEY BERGMAN: First of all, I've learned in doing this again for almost two decades that you have to keep the hope. I wish I could articulate much more optimism now than I as I did earlier. But the execution of the hostages two weeks ago just, you know, devastated me as it devastated so many people around the world and, of course, the families. I do think it is possible, it is still within the realm. There are still hostages alive there. We still have a deal on the table that is feasible. It's not great, but it's feasible and therefore it can be done. So, my focus is not to necessarily speculate about the chances, but work relentlessly on whatever it takes in order to get them home.

MG: Mickey Bergman, thank you very much.

MICKEY BERGMAN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Mickey Bergman is the CEO of Global Reach, a non-profit that helps return Americans kidnapped or wrongfully detained abroad at no cost to their families. His new book is called In the Shadows: True Stories of High Stakes Negotiations to Free Americans Captured Abroad. That is the current for this Tuesday, the 10th of September. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. Before we go, as you've been hearing, Hollywood is mourning the loss of one of its most recognizable voices.

SOUNDCLIP

MUFASA: A king's time as ruler rises and falls like the sun. One day, Simba, the sun will set on my time here and will rise with you as the new king.

DARTH VADER: If you only knew the power of the dark side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father. I am your father.

MG: You may know him as the iconic voice of Star Wars villain Darth Vader, or as Mufasa in The Lion King. Also the voice of CNN. But he was not only a legendary voice. Actor James Earl Jones had an incredible life. He was abandoned by his parents as a child. He lived with a stutter that actually left him to stop speaking entirely for years. He ended up going on to have a career on stage and screen that spanned seven decades and won him two Emmys, a Golden Globe, two Tonys and a Grammy, as well as an honorary Oscar and a special Tony for lifetime achievement. James Earl Jones died yesterday. He was 93 years old. It's almost fall. The baseball playoffs are approaching. And so, with James Earl Jones in mind, we will leave you with his famous monologue from the film Field of Dreams. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES EARL JONES: People will come, Ray. They'll come to Iowa for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up your driveway, not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for the past. 'Of course, we won't mind if you look around,' you'll say. 'It's only twenty dollars per person.' They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it. For it is money they have and peace they lack.

SPEAKER: Ray, just sign the papers.

JAMES EARL JONES: And they'll walk out to the bleachers, and sit in shirt-sleeves on a perfect afternoon. They'll find they have reserved seats somewhere along one of the baselines, where they sat when they were children and cheered their heroes. And they'll watch the game, and it'll be as if they'd dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick, they'll have to brush them away from their faces.

SPEAKER: Ray, when the bank opens in the morning, they'll foreclose.

JAMES EARL JONES: People will come, Ray.

SPEAKER: You're broke, Ray. You sell now or you lose everything.

JAMES EARL JONES: The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game -- it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again. Ohhhhhhhh, people will come, Ray. People will most definitely come.

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Tuesday September 10, 2024 Full Transcript

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