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Crime Story Episode 40: Andrew Jarecki

Host: Kathleen Goldhar

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Kathleen here. We're back with part two of my conversation with Andrew Jarecki and Zac Stuart-Pontier, the genius filmmakers behind The Jinx, a docu series that explores the strange life of Robert Durst. If you haven't listened to part one, go back and do that now. I promise we'll be here when you're finished. And those of you who are caught up, we're back with Andrew and Zach talking about everything that came after Bob's bombshell bathroom confession. Say that ten times.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT DURST: There it is. You're caught. Kill them all, of course.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And one thing: Andrew and Zac's conversation with me went way longer than we expected, so Andrew actually had to run about halfway through this conversation. Also, if you love Crime Story and want to hear more in-depth interviews with your favorite true crime makers, please follow the podcast. It helps us find new listeners and make sure that we keep delivering awesome episodes. So without further ado, welcome back to Crime Story with Andrew Gerace and Zac Stuart-Pontier. I first want to sort of hit this idea. You know, every journalist that I know of, their sort of dream in life is that they affect some kind of change, whether it be small or big, but some kind of change. And a lot of the times you'll die and you won't have affected that change. But you guys can't say that. So I just want to like, sort of talk a little bit about how you feel about the impact of the show. I mean, it seriously impacted many people's lives, most significantly at least... In the follow up, Robert Durst. So just tell me about that feeling like you really did affect lives.

ANDREW JARECKI: I mean, my first reaction to that is that the most important lives we impacted were the McCormick family.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ANDREW JARECKI: Because when I first went and visited them back in, I'm afraid to say 2005, they had been really damaged by Robert Durst, by the Durst family, by a lot of the people around him. They had gone through this incredible, horrible experience of losing their sister, and then the further indignity of having the Durst family ignore them, essentially ostracize them. Having Bob participate in a kind of smear campaign. So this girl, Kathy McCormick, was such an extraordinary person. You know, she came from a very modest background. She had this lovely personality. She cared a lot about the people around her, like even at nursing school, there was a whole campaign that she had run because she thought it was outrageous that there were all these rules that said that female nurses had to wear those little ridiculous, you know, bonnets, and they didn't have the same rules for men. And she said, well, that doesn't sound right. And she launched this campaign. She got them to change the the rules at Western Connecticut State College. And then eventually, despite the fact that Bob was really working against her, she decided to to go to medical school. She got herself into Albert Einstein. She had really good grades, and she wanted to be a pediatrician. And so the feeling of of losing her was palpable when I went to see the McCormick's. And they were very generous about helping us tell the story. And they said, for all these years, everybody's interested in Bob Durst. Bob Durst is so weird. Bob Durst is so funny. Bob Durst is this charismatic gentleman killer. But for them, it was just a story of of loss. And they said, you're the first people that have ever come to us and said, we want to tell the story of Kathy, the story of what happened to her in that relationship. And so that was always the stakes for us. And then obviously, of course, as you're saying, it had a big impact on Bob Durst's life because there was accountability. But the accountability was always in the service of the the family of the most notable victim in the case. Not that Susan Berman and, and Morris Black were not important victims, but as we learned from the series, Susan Berman was part of the problem. And we never got to know Morris Black very well because, you know, he's killed when he's quite elderly and he didn't have a very clear background, or he was he was sort of a drifter. That's really where it all started for us.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Zach, for you to like, do you did you have a sense of responsibility to the McCormick's or how do you feel now on the end of it having impacted sort of so many people's lives?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: I mean, it was a wild experience to to be working on the first season and then have discovered this evidence and the bathroom audio and all this stuff, and then to see that kind of explode into reality, I still have a hard time believing that it all happened, honestly.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Obviously, viewers were dying that there'd be a season two, but did you know right away that there would be season two that this is how you'd split it up?

ANDREW JARECKI: No, we did not know at all. We were sort of done. I mean, each stage of this, you know, people have been saying me recently like, oh, did you know that you were going to 21 years of working on this story? Of course not. But it all happened in as kind of an evolution. You know, we made the first film, All Good Things, and then Bob calls, right? I thought I was done at that point. I thought, well, I've done plenty of Durst, I've done this film. It's time for me to do something else. And all of a sudden, phone call from Bob. So that becomes another five years. And, you know, similarly, when the first jinx came out and it was such a emotional, crazy experience, it was such a public and and and loud event and, and had such a big impact on I'm Bob on the case. You know, we sort of felt like, all right, well, we've done our thing here and now it's up to the police and the courts and so on. And so we didn't think about making anything else. But obviously Zac and I, you know, are friends and have been in touch and talking about stuff and, and, and they were doing something interesting in Los Angeles, which is that they allow in a trial like this what they call conditional witnesses. So they say you can bring somebody in and have them testify and video and, and, and it's really under two conditions. One is that they're, they're old. And the second thing is that they're potentially at risk of getting hurt, you know, so in a mob trial, you might say, well, we want to bring in this guy because something bad could happen to him because of what he's about to testify to. And in the Durst case, they they asked for a lot of of these conditional witnesses, and they videoed them. And Zach and I got to see some of the video, and we were just texting each other. We'd say, well, did you see so-and-so's testimony? That's amazing. They said that. And then some day there was a particularly remarkable piece of testimony, you know, and for us, this is like this super complicated video game where we know where all the gems are and all the things are buried. If you go behind the bookcase, you can find the lever. Like, just as we're just obsessed with the story and the materials, so it's stuck in our heads. So somebody was on the witness stand testifying, and we were so mesmerized by it. And I remember sending a text message to Zach saying, you know, doesn't this make you want to make more episodes? And he immediately said, yes, with an exclamation point. And so we thought, all right, well, we're we're going to now we're going to go back into this.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I just want to quickly say so that we're up to date. After the jinx one comes out in, and this tape comes out, Bob does get arrested for Susan's murder. And so when you're talking about the trial, you're talking about the trial for Susan Berman. I just want to sort of make that clear. But season two does have a decisively different tone, a different theme, a different everything. So can you guys talk a little bit about how they differ?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: One of the main differences, I think so much of part one, when you look back on it, is told retrospectively, like the first four, 4 or 5 episodes are all in the past. Yeah. And you're getting Bob's take on it. It's endlessly fascinating. And the it sort of explodes at the end with, like, it catches up to real time.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Right, because the murders and the disappearances had happened. And you're asking him about what had happened.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Right. Totally.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, yeah.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: And so part two, though, we were kind of following along as it was happening. So it has a much more like, you know, it's I find it a little more energetic in some ways.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Like it has a real push because there is this framing of the trial and things are unfolding in real time as opposed to retrospectively.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah. And I also found what I really found interesting about part two was that the focus on the people surrounding Bob, the system around Bob, protected him his whole life. Some of it he set up and some of it was set up before he was born. So can you tell me what the Durst family, the powerful Durst family was able to do throughout Bob's- what became clear was a violent life? That he was a violent kid, a violent... They protected him, and they were able to because of the power they had, right?

ANDREW JARECKI: I just want to say that during the making of part one, you know, a thing that we would say in the edit room was, how do you kill three people over 30 years and get away with it? It takes a village.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ANDREW JARECKI: And as we were going through, I think the experience of learning about Bob and learning about the people around him, it became clear that there was this constellation of people around him who see themselves as perfectly good, decent people and yet were somehow drawn into some murderous activities, helping him, covering things up. And, and, and many of them thought of themselves as, you know, not having been complicit. And yet somebody would say, well, I didn't really have anything to do with it. I mean, of course I didn't kill anybody. I mean, yes, I did send $118,000 in a suitcase to him by UPS. But, you know, that wasn't really doing anything bad. Well, what did you think he was doing? Was he going on the run? Well, I didn't know. I mean, I just was it was dark, I don't know. So, you know, to us, the, the people who surrounded Bob were so fascinating and such human beings, you know, they didn't ask to be friends with the murderer, except I would say Chris Lovell probably did ask to be friends with the murderer. But for the most part, it was the Altman's, his friends and his lawyer, Stuart Altman and Susie Giordano, his kind of little girlfriend slash assistant. And, you know, of course, we haven't yet talked about Bob's wife, but we will. And so these people who were ordinary and were drawn to Bob, I think, became the most important part of part two, you know, not only brought them story, but really allowed us to ask ourselves questions like, not just what? Why do people do bad things? But if I were a vulnerable person, if I had a sick child, or if I was somebody who was relying on Bob Durst for... Support or something like that. You know, what would I have done? What would I have done in that situation? Could I see myself as.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ANDREW JARECKI: You know, as as as as getting involved in something like this? If I had the right...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That's so interesting. I was actually amazed at how I felt like every one of his friends was kind of despicable in their own way, except for, weirdly, Nick Chavin's wife, which that you'll have to explain. I don't understand that couple. I mean, Nick Chavin. Can we talk about that guy? I mean, do you?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Yes.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Have you ever... I never knew there was something called, like, cowboy porn.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Country porn.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Country porn music, which we'll have.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Maybe that didn't make it up to Canada, I don't know. It's huge here, though. Not surprisingly, Americans love their country porn.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It is huge. Are you not? Are you joking?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: I'm being [indistinct].

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Oh, okay. Yeah. So how do you respond to that? Like I didn't I didn't actually get that, Andrew, from his friends. I actually saw them as self-centered and and taking his money and recognizing that he was an ass and a terrible person, and they were in it for themselves and then protecting themselves. But it's clear, I'm curious that your feeling of like, well, they are people caught up in it. Yeah, I just find that interesting.

ANDREW JARECKI: Well, you know, you see, especially in, in the last episode of the series. So episode 12, you know, you see people, you know, we used to call that that section sort of the accountability tour, you know, going out and, and, and, and asking people, why they did what they did. And of all the people, there's no question that a lot of these people did bad things and and helped Bob in a lot of ways. But we know, you know, you see, in US politics right now, there are a lot of people who are complicit in bad behaviour. And they'll all say things like, well, I mean, I wasn't the one that separated the children from the border, if anything, you know, I was one of the guardrails. Yes. I mean, I was in the administration, but of course, I was a good person. People don't see themselves as bad people. And so so I think, you know, there's a there is if you watch episode 12 again, I think you'll see that we do treat these people with a level of, of compassion. It's clear that a lot of these people were very damaged by their relationship with Bob, and that they gave up a lot, and their lives were sort of destroyed by being within the blast radius of what happened. Nick Chavin is to me... Not the most despicable. I think Nick is somebody who has a good heart, has gone along with Bob for all these years, and finally has an epiphany, finally realizes that he really has been part of the problem. He's sort of the only person in the last episode who does take responsibility, who says, I feel complicit. You know, there might have been something I could have done to stop this. I didn't, I held it in. I didn't share this with people. I didn't allow myself to do that. And and you see him have a real physiological reaction very much like Bob does. Yeah. I mean, to me, it sort of bookends what you see in the last episode of, of part one, you see Bob having this visceral reaction. And here's Bob's best friend who's been covering for him for all these years having this kind of breakdown, this physical breakdown, sort of uncontrollably yawning and nervous. And, you know, you can see he's like sweating and he's, he's, you know, he's really having... All I can describe it is, is a kind of crisis of conscience. But he's but he's he needs to do that before he ends his life. You know, he needs to to explain who he is. And I think Terry, his wife, who's, you know, I always say, if you know that American television show The Munsters, where everybody is, you know, one guy looks like Frankenstein, one person's a bat. And and they always have the normal niece...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ANDREW JARECKI: Whose name was Marilyn, who looked like she came from, like, the family next door. And everybody always felt bad for her. She wasn't weird like they were. And I and I said, Terry, after the film came out, I said, Terry, a T-shirt that I bought on the internet, that's the Munsters t shirt, and it has a big picture of Marilyn in the front of it. And I said, you, you know, you're Marilyn. You're the only normal one.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, I feel sorry for her. So like we said, most of the season, part two is the trial. There's so much that we can't talk about at all. But I would like to talk about the fact that Bob actually ends up on the stand.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Everybody ready? You may you may commence your cross-examination of the witness, Mr. Lewin. So, Mr. Durst, Mr. DeGuerin called you Bob. So you tell me, how do you want me to refer to you? I'm comfortable doing it however you want to do it. Did you want me to call you Bob? Do you want me to call you Mr. Durst? What would you prefer?

ROBERT DURST: How about Sir?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That was fascinating to watch. Can you tell us what he was like, especially in his cross-examination?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Absolutely. So once Bob admitted to writing the cadaver note, which was a shocking admission, it became clear that he was going to have to testify and take the stand and fill in this story of what happened to Susan Berman. And he does take the stand. Andrew always expected that he would take the stand because Bob loves the Bob show. So, anything to keep the Bob show going, but it doesn't go well for him. John Lewin is extremely prepared.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And John Lewin is the prosecutor. Just to make it clear, John Lewin is famous for being a cold case prosecutor in the States, and he is tenacious to say the least.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Oh my goodness, he is. He's the most tenacious-- John Lewin, and he knew more about this case than anyone by the time he got Bob on the stand. And it was kind of Bob's worst nightmare. I mean, it's a nine day cross-examination, and he he takes him through everything, every lie, every detail. And by the end of it, the judge is like, okay, stop. Like it's enough, and...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Which is amazing.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: It's an incredible moment. It's I don't I don't think anyone had ever spoken to Bob that way in his entire life.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: So it's kind of an incredible thing to see. The other thing I love is you get a sense of what John Lewin... John Lewin spoke to Bob the day he was arrested. And they have this kind of incredible interrogation, which is featured in episode one of part two and cut back to a few times throughout the season. But it's quite a stark difference between the good cop John Lewin that interrogates Bob in New Orleans, and the tough prosecutor that gets Bob on the stand.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What eventually convicts Bob? Like, what's the evidence that convicts him of killing Susan Berman?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: This case took months to try. So the way that John Lewin charged Bob, he charged him with a special circumstance witness killing. So he he wrapped in the Kathie Durst missing wife case into his Susan Berman case. Susan Berman was murdered because she was a witness to another crime. And so that allowed him to tell this very complex and complicated story. And having spoken to a bunch of the jurors, they were with him completely... Talking to the jurors, we kind of like, have this not a joke, but we sort of speak the Durst language like, they know this case, like Andrew and I know this case now, and they, they, they were not swayed where the Galveston jury was swayed by a charming defendant. The L.A. jury was not swayed. They were not swayed by the defense. They were not swayed by the defendant. And they convicted him. You know, it wasn't quite as quick as the Trump verdict, but it was pretty quick.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It was pretty quick. Were you guys called in? I mean, you guys were people who collected evidence. How did the jinx production crew become involved in the case?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: So we were on the witness list for a long time. Andrew was on the witness list the longest. None of us were called to testify. It got me out of jury duty once. So that was kind of amazing. They said, is anybody a witness in a crime? And I'm like, I guess I have to raise my hand. And they're going around the room going, and what was the crime? What was the crime? And they get to me and I'm like...murder? And everyone turns around. "What?" I was dismissed. I was they were like, okay, good-bye, you're a filmmaker.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, exactly.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: But it was a fascinating glimpse into the justice system. And we were on these witness emails from John Lewin in his office with all the other witnesses for a long time.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Wow.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: As the case progressed, it became the evidence that we had discovered became less and less important in a in a kind of a funny, in an interesting twist or turn of events. And in the end, Bob stipulated which is a legal term for like admits that all of the footage from The Jinx was unedited, and he basically made it so that Andrew and and the rest of the filmmaking team was not necessary to testify. Though in a final wrinkle after Bob testified, he gets on the stand and John Lewin is showing him some of his more like culpable statements or some of his statements from The Jinx that make him look the worst. And he comes up with this idea that Andrew made him say it. Andrew gave him hints, gave him a script even. And so there was this brief moment where they they wondered about whether they were going to call Andrew as a witness to rebut Bob's testimony. And the judge again said, nobody is believing this. Like, do not call Andrew to testify.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Interesting.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: And they didn't.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Didn't. But you have had some criticism about the way you edited the Bob confession tape and the way it actually was said. Right. So you have him saying in the movie, what the hell did I do? Killed them all, of course. And then in real life, he says something, something, something killed them all, of course, more. And then what the hell did I do? Do you want to talk about that? So there is there is some criticism that that was obviously he said it. He did it.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But I mean, what made you make that choice and then how now recognizing the feedback that it was a little bit maybe disingenuous how you feel about doing that now?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Bob was in the bathroom for over 5 or 6 minutes, so we were always going to edit...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Of course.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: What happened in the bathroom. He uses the bathroom. He washed his hands. He makes all sorts of noises. So. And he also says a bunch of other stuff. I think once he went in the bathroom and said, there it is, you're caught. Kill them all, of course, like we didn't take anything he said out of context, I don't believe. And we we ended the film with kill them all, of course. So I would say we made one edit, which was to move, kill them all, of course, to the end. And the reason that anybody knows about any editing is because we turned over the raw material.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So you weren't hiding anything, of course?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Nobody was hiding anything. The The Jinx was never introduced as evidence. It was a TV show.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: And we turned over evidence, which also people criticized us for turning over.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: So it was a tough road to walk, you know, and I think Andrew did an incredible job walking it. I stand by everything we did. And I think he does too.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah. And it's a hard thing, you know, like I think listeners should understand that journalists and documentary makers are not an arm of the police. So working with the police is a choice you have to make. And it's not an easy one. And so there has to be a lot of thought into whether or not you decide to do that or not.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Yeah. And I think there were certain things we did share and certain things we didn't share. We were really trying to maintain the sources that we had that had trusted us.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: You know, they had talked to us and not the not the police in some cases. So it was a really hard and complicated, process. And I think we did the best we could. And I'm, I'm proud of the decisions that we made. I think we did the best we could.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, it's a hard decision with no right answer. So you have to make one and you're going to have criticism one way or the other, right?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: We got it from both sides almost equally, which makes me feel good about it.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It was the right choice. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So what does Bob finally get sentenced to?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Bob is found guilty, and Bob gets sentenced to life without parole.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And how old is he at this point? He's pretty infirm, too, right? Like...

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: I want to say 79.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Oh, but he looks 90.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: I could be wrong about that. He looks 100. Yeah. I mean, he looks not well, he he really goes from the vibrant guy who's in the jinx to a shell of a human being by the time he's on the stand, and by the time he's sentenced, he's like, he's just really beaten. So it's it's a weird thing. Like, I think people, some people have sympathy for him. I don't know if he deserves sympathy. I mean, it's just he was an aging defendant and he was found guilty and died only months later.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Do you have a sense of how he felt about the documentary? I mean, he probably he never got to see season two, but he certainly saw season one. How did he feel about it?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Well, he had a lot to say about The Jinx. He he he saw it as a mistake and he was trying to figure out... John Lewin asked him, why did you do that? And he says, I'm still trying to figure that out in my own mind. And I think that's true. I think everybody told him not to do it, and he wanted to talk. He wanted his story out there, and he got it out there.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: He probably thought he was smarter than anybody else, too. That tends to be a trait.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: It's possible. I also wonder if he would have made this deal, knowing, even knowing the consequences.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Interesting. Yeah. For the for the sake of it.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: He wanted to be famous. He was upset that he saw his brother taking his, you know, legacy of this big real estate family. And, you know, he wanted to be heard as well.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And what about Cathy's family and all this? Like, Andrew started this conversation by saying that it was them that he had in his mind the whole time. How did they feel about all of this?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: I mean, I was lucky enough to spend a lot of time with Elizabeth McCormick.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Who is she? She was Kathy, the niece?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Yeah. She's Kathy's niece. She's...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Who looked exactly like her.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: She looked exactly like her. And she's in part one, speaking on camera. And you see her react to the bathroom confession with her parents in part two. And we also interviewed her. And, what she says is, you know, I don't really think about Bob Durst that much anymore. And I get emotional when I think about that. Like it's almost as if Kathy did get away through Elizabeth. She's a teacher, she works with children. She has this life that kind of Kathy saw for herself. And so I think they're doing okay. The McCormick's, they've had an unbelievably hard time. And, you know, her father, Jim McCormick, Kathy's brother, is still fighting the good fight with the rest of his sisters to try to hold Robert Durst estate accountable. You know, there isn't much new to update there. They're still fighting the civil case, but there are close family. And when you look at them, compared to the Durst's, you know. Tom and Wendy don't speak anymore.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Those are the Durst siblings.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Those are the Durst siblings. So you see that on one. On the one hand, they have a bunch of money. They're very comfortable. They're very powerful. And on the other hand, you see the McCormick's enjoying like a really close family Christmas.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: So...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yup. How about you? How did this change you? Tell me about the process. I mean, it's been so long, it might be kind of hard to have a sense, but this is a big deal.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, it was, it was a big deal. And, you know, it came at an interesting point personally, in my career, you know, I was in my 20s when we were making season one and 42 kids...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Crazy.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: Raising, you know, so I, you my relationship with Andrew has matured and my relationship with Mark has matured. And I don't know, I don't think it should be about about me. But, this story is is bigger than us. That was a big reason why I wanted to be involved with season two, because there was more story to tell, and I felt like we needed to, like, finish it out.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Are you done now with it? Are you done, there's no more?

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: You know, I always, keeping an eye on things.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I think the, Debbie, his wife could be a whole other story. We didn't get into her. So, everyone, it's worth watching if you don't, because she is quite the character herself.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: That's right.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Okay. Well, thank you very much again. Really, congratulations. It's incredible work. 20 years, I mean, shit,.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: That's crazy.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That's commitment.

ZAC STUART-PONTIER: It's really been a pleasure.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Thanks for listening to my interview with Andrew Jarecki and Zac Stuart-Pontier. You really should check out the original docu series and the companion podcast, because there is so much we couldn't get into, including about Bob's wife, Debbie Sheridan, and the McCormick family, which is still fighting to this day to get justice for Kathy. You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. We drop a new episode every Monday. You can get our next episode a week early on CBC Podcasts' YouTube channel, or by subscribing to the CBC podcast True Crime Channel on Apple Podcasts. In addition to early access, subscribers to our True Crime Channel also listen ad-free. Crime Story is written and hosted by me. Our producers are Alexis Green and Sarah Claydon. Sound design by Graham MacDonald. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner. Our video producer is Evan Aagaard. Our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Executive producers are Cesil Fernandes and Chris Oke. Tanya Springer is CBC Podcasts' senior manager, and Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts.

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Transcript: Crime Story, Episode 40

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