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The Current Transcript for May 30, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

SOUNDCLIP

SATCHEL PAIGE: Josh was one of those superhuman people. It'll ought to be a thousand years before another man come along like that.

MATT GALLOWAY: The great pitcher Satchel Paige knew what he was talking about. Josh Gibson was one of the best baseball players of all time, but you wouldn't find his name or statistics in the list of the game's greats until now. Gibson played his career in the segregated Negro Leagues. Now, the stats from that league have been incorporated with Major League Baseball, and Gibson is now ranked the best hitter of all time. In an hour, his great grandson and what this means for his family and for baseball. Also this morning: it sounds like something out of a sci fi film. Or maybe an old western. An entire herd of cattle stolen from a farm in Quebec. And it's not the first time this has happened in Canada. Coming up, farm security, livestock thefts and black-market meat. And later:

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SPEAKER: It's not really so much about thoughtfulness and design anymore. It's about making a statement and continuing that virality.

MG: Would you pay $1,000 for a pair of jeans that look like you had an accident in the bathroom? Many people, apparently, would. So many so that those particular pants are sold out. Jeans are having a moment. In 30 minutes, jundies-- that's jean-undies for the uninitiated--and what trends in denim can tell us about work, class and style. But we begin in South Africa and an election that could leave the party of Nelson Mandela on the brink. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Why loyalty for Mandela’s party is waning in South Africa

Guests: Geoffrey York, Hlengiwe Ndlovu

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NELSON MANDELA: We have at last achieved our political emancipation. We pledge ourselves to liberate all our people from the continuing bondage of poverty, deprivation, suffering, gender and other discrimination.

MG: That was Nelson Mandela during his swearing in ceremony in April of 1994. The result of South Africa's first democratic all-race election. Thirty years ago, Mandela became that country's first Black president. Since that day, his party, the African National Congress, has led that country. But their sole ruling dynasty could be coming to an end.

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SPEAKER: [Foreign speech]

TRANSLATOR: Mandela would not be happy, because we are not getting services. We are suffering even though we support the ANC. Mandela's party needs to do better and stop putting shame to Mandela's name.

MG: That's how some people in Mandela's hometown feel about their country's leadership. South Africans cast their ballots yesterday in what is shaping up to be an historic election. Geoffrey York is the Globe and Mail's Africa bureau chief. He is in Johannesburg. Geoffrey, hello.

GEOFFREY YORK: Hello.

MG: I saw some images of the very long line-ups that people were in waiting to cast their ballots yesterday. How late in the night did voting go?

GEOFFREY YORK: Well, in some voting stations, people were voting as late as midnight. There was a number of glitches in the voting process, new scanners that weren't working well. But people were very persistent. They stayed in the lines, some of them, past midnight.

MG: What does that enthusiasm tell you?

GEOFFREY YORK: Well, it's really hard to tell what voter turnout is right now, actually. It's certainly, there was a lot of enthusiasm in the urban areas in a number of cities, but we're still seeing results coming in from rural areas. And it's not clear what the overall turnout has been. In fact, there's been a lot of worry that voter turnout has been declining for decades. People have gradually been moving away from the ANC, the ruling, you know, Nelson Mandela's ANC. But a lot of them were unwilling to vote for opposition parties. So, what we've seen instead, over the years, has been a gradual decline in voter turnout.

MG: What are the early results starting to show? Again, the full results won't be tallied for a few more days. But at this point, what are you starting to see?

GEOFFREY YORK: Yeah, we're getting enough early results for projections to be made by analysts who are looking at the trends closely. And the best projections that I've seen so far are that the ANC will receive around 42 to 45 per cent of the vote. Now, that would be its worst ever showing in a national election. And the first time, you know, in the national vote that it has fallen below 50 per cent. In fact, in the last election it had 57 per cent. It's had as much as 70 per cent of the vote. So, a result of 42 to 45 per cent would be very bad by the ANC's historical standards. And it opens the door for coalition negotiations, meaning that the ANC will probably have to negotiate with other parties to try to retain its parliamentary majority in this system, which is a proportional representation system.

MG: You wrote that that slide in support with the ANC started in about 2004. Walk us through how a party in power for 30 years that defined post-apartheid South Africa has been losing that support.

GEOFFREY YORK: Well, you're right. It's been 30 years in power. And for millions of voters, they are still loyal to the ANC. They see the ANC as the party of Nelson Mandela, the party that liberated the country from apartheid. So, there's been this remarkable loyalty for decades. But that's been eroding. And a lot of it is because of the economy. Now, if you look at the economic situation and look at how the ANC has performed in government, it did very well for the first 15 years after apartheid ended. The economy was growing, people were getting more housing, more services. But for the last 15 years, the economy has really begun to stagnate. Growth has been, you know, stuck at around one per cent, which means on a per capita basis, people are staying as poor as they were before. Unemployment has been rising, which means even people who go to university are coming out and being unable to get jobs. And at the same time, over the last 10 or 12 years, electricity has been getting worse. There's been really devastating electricity cuts which have heavily damaged the economy. And the ANC is paying the price for that. People are shifting away from the ANC and moving to, either they're not voting at all as in the past or now, sometimes voting for opposition parties, some of which are ethnic based or populist. And that's really fragmenting the political spectrum.

MG: You also wrote that multi-racism is losing its support in South Africa. What did you mean by that?

GEOFFREY YORK: Well, a lot of the opposition parties, especially the newer opposition parties that are emerging now, are very much ethnic based. So, for example, the projections in this election show that the fourth biggest party will be a new party-- MK-- headed by former President Jacob Zuma. And that party has been very much catering to the Zulu population, especially in KwaZulu Natal province. And it looks like it will probably become the biggest party in that province, which is by population, the second biggest province in the country. People probably know the city of Durban. That's on the Indian Ocean. That's where KZN is located. And it looks like Jacob Zuma's party will become the biggest party there, defeating the ANC and allowing itself to possibly form a provincial government with other parties. So, that's an example. And we're seeing other parties. There's a new party called the Patriotic Alliance, which is catering very much to the mixed-race population, and it has done fairly well in this election. It won't be one of the top four, but it's also having an impact on the election. So, we're seeing these new parties, also parties that are more narrowly ideological. There's basically, the ANC as a multi-ethnic, multiracial, broad church is declining in its ability to kind of mobilize people from all parts of the spectrum.

MG: There's also been a rise in anti-immigration and anti-migrant talk. And this idea of building a wall with Zimbabwe, for example. What's going on there?

GEOFFREY YORK: Yeah, I mean, basically it's a symptom of a stagnant economy. The ANC, with its electricity cuts and so on, has really been unable to produce any significant economic growth for a decade. And as people become increasingly disgruntled by the persistent inequality in the country, persistent unemployment and poverty, a lot of them are quite unfairly actually blaming migrants for that. So, especially migrants coming in from elsewhere in Africa. Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Somalia, many of these migrants are a very visible factor in the townships in South Africa, where they run a lot of small convenience shops. And they are being blamed for taking jobs from South Africans. And actually the studies show that this is false. The migrants, like in most countries, migrants are actually contributing to the economy and generating economic growth. But they're becoming the scapegoats. And so, we're seeing a growing tendency to blame what they call illegal foreigners, which actually means those who are unable to get documentation. And there's a real tendency to scapegoat them, which is quite dangerous for the country, actually. It's part of this kind of populist messaging that we're seeing in many countries in the world.

MG: Just before I let you go, if the ANC is not able to reach a clear majority, who would they most likely have to come into some sort of alliance with to maintain power?

GEOFFREY YORK: Yeah, that's the key question when people are looking at the final results. If they fall as low as, you know, the low 40s, like 41, 42 per cent, it'll be very difficult for them to form a coalition without negotiating with one of the major opposition parties. Now, what the ANC is hoping is that they get, you know, 45, 46 per cent, they can form a coalition with smaller, more moderate parties that would not really rock the boat and would allow the ANC to continue to dominate the national government. But that's one of the questions that's in the balance right now. You know, how far down will the ANC fall and what parties will it ultimately try to negotiate with? And that's why we're entering a period of uncertainty right now, for weeks.

MG: This feels like a real defining moment in the country.

GEOFFREY YORK: Yeah. Because the ANC has been dominant for so long. And finally, it's going to have to negotiate with other parties. It's going to lose control of some provinces. It really could be historic in that sense.

MG: Geoffrey, thank you very much for this. Really glad to talk to you.

GEOFFREY YORK: Thank you.

MG: Geoffrey York is the Globe and Mail's Africa bureau chief. Hlengiwe Ndhlovu is a senior lecturer at Johannesburg's Wits School of Governance, and is just outside the National Results Centre, where the results are being tabulated and interpreted. Hlengiwe, hello to you.

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Good morning, Matt. And good morning to your listeners.

MG: Do you see this as a defining moment in your country?

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Oh, well, first, I would like to apologize to your listeners in case there is some noise behind me. You have already said that I'm at the results operations centre, the National Centre. So, it's a [unclear.] It is quite a defining moment for South Africa. I mean, we've been 30 years into democracy, and for the longest time we've been characterized as a young democracy. But at 30 years, we are no longer young. That democracy should have materialized to an extent that it should be showing, even for the majority of the ordinary citizens in the country. And as a country as well, we've made some strides in terms of providing regional leadership and continental leadership. So, this election's a watershed moment for the country and also globally.

MG: What do you think the election is about?

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Say again?

MG: What do you think this election is about? What is the driving issue in this election?

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Oh, yeah. So, as part of--number one, from a legal perspective, it's a democratic exercise. But also, we're coming here to these elections, having had, you know, quite many challenges that have been faced by ordinary South Africans. I had my colleague there who just spoke citing some of the major issues that have been seen in the socio economic but also political space. You know, that have forced the South Africans to reimagine an alternative [unclear] 1994 South Africa. So, for many, this is about change. For many, this is about imagining an alternative to the current government. And we are yet to see how that is unfolding throughout, in the coming few days.

MG: A report came out last fall showing that South Africa is one of the most inequitable countries in the world. How have those inequalities played out in this election; do you think?

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Yes, absolutely, Matt. We are quite an unequal society. Actually, top ten, globally. And, you know, some of those owing really to the legacies of our historical past, but also flipping into the democratic moment. The government hasn't been able, you know, to address those due to some of their major economic policies. So, coming to these elections in particular, those inequalities have been exposed, you know, through the number of political parties that are contesting in this election. So, for the first time, we've got 31 new entrants into the political space as political parties who are contesting in these elections. And also, we do have independent candidates who are standing. And these are the different voices from different corners of society demonstrating their disenfranchisement with this democracy and are expressing their socio-economic outcries that have been out there for so many reasons. So, these elections actually, are actually an indication or a reflection of some of those levels of inequalities and societal [unclear] within South Africa.

MG: You have said that we haven't really transcended the issue of race as a country. What did you mean by that?

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Well, absolutely. You will see even, when you see-- and my colleague did touch on some of these issues--when, the way, you know, giving their input. The images of different political parties that are regionalized and also localized are an indication of that. If you may recall, the issue of race as well, was one of the major thorn issues on the 2021 July unrest in South Africa that saw the looting of businesses across the country. So, those are some of the issues that still remain major. And they also do define the voting lines and, you know, the support for different political parties.

MG: What is the ANC--in that context, what does the African National Congress mean to younger Black South Africans? The median age in the country is 30. Many younger South Africans wouldn't remember Mandela or the party that represented him in many ways. What does that party mean to them?

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Well, the African National Congress currently present so many complexities. So, number one, for young people it's not a party that they identify with per se, because they don't owe it any liberation loyalties. Right? So, we've seen an emergence of other political parties within the space. The Economic Freedom Fighters are collecting a good number or a significant fraction of young people, as well as other new political parties that have come into the space recently, especially in these elections. So, it remains a party with a large base by the way of older voters who, for some reason, it evokes that nostalgic moment of the 1994 transition, and they still pay that loyalty even now. So, that's what it represents. But for many people, especially young people, the issues of unemployment, you know, they continue to take away that hope. And also, to discredit the relevance of the party for young people. If you've been following South African politics around, 2015, 2016, the FeesMustFall movement from the higher education was actually a demonstration to say, this government has not been able, you know, to live up to its promises. But also, it never promised anything to young people. So, for young people they are not experiencing democracy. That's what it means to them today. But also, on the other side of the coin, there are young people who come from very strong ANC backgrounds. And they do still maintain those ties. So, that's where some of these issues with the support for the ANC get to this place.

MG: What about women? You said last month that no one in this election had adequately addressed the main challenges affecting women in South Africa. Where does that leave women in the country?

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Absolutely. In South Africa, we are a femicide nation. The levels of gender-based violence, they are deeper than ever, on one hand. But also, on a political representation level, we are yet to see in terms of how ready South Africans are actually to have a woman president or a female president, for that matter. And they do have, different political parties do have very beautifully crafted political manifestos. But when you look internally into their own individual party composition structures and all of that, beyond bringing numbers, at a top leadership level, women are still not reflected there. And that remains. And by the way, for these elections in particular, women consisted of 55 per cent of the registered voters who intended to vote in these elections. And that remains very important in terms of, if women are going to vote, if they went to vote yesterday, who are they voting? And that particular candidate or political party, how are they poised to advance or to represent their interests?

MG: So, it really does, this is what I said to Geoffrey York, it does feel like a defining moment in this country in many ways.

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: It does feel like a defining moment in so many ways. I've already touched on the 30 years of democracy. But also, I want to situate the situation of South Africa and the ANC in particular, within the broader continental politics. When you do a mapping of the liberation parties across the continent, you will see that there is a trend, you know, of those defining moments where at a particular time, the support for the liberation parties tends to go down. And the other issues I've already mentioned in terms of the fights that, you know, South Africa has met as a country, the issue of BRICS and the new coalition that's coming in. And other different stances on the foreign policy of the country. So, those are quite important issues. And these elections are going, you know, to matter [unclear] from those decisions that have been met by the previous government.

MG: Thank you very much for talking to us. It's fascinating. I really appreciate your time.

HLENGIWE NDHLOVU: Thank you so much.

MG: Hlengiwe Ndhlovu is a senior lecturer at Johannesburg's Wits School of Governance. We reached her just outside of the building where the results from that election are being tabulated. Your CBC News is coming up next. And then:

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SPEAKER: Inexplicable styles really speaks to the fact that we're also craving, you know, seeing something new and unusual, but also being able to push back at it a little bit as well. Or maybe enjoy it and maybe say, Hey, that's something I want to try.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Denim is having a moment. Unusual styles like micro denim shorts and crotch-stained jeans. Whatever happened to the bootcut or the plain old skinny jeans, you might ask? Well, we'll ask that as well. Coming up in six minutes, we're going to talk about the wild and weird trends in denim and what all of that says about us. I'll speak with an historian who looks at jeans, coming up in about six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Fades up]

Jundies, janties, jikinis — denim is having a weird moment

Guests: Odessa Paloma Parker, Emma McClendon

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Something weird is happening with jeans. First there was the brand Free People's micro denim shorts. Basically, jean underwear. The TikToker, Nicole Story Dent tried them on:

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NICOLE STORY DENT: You could deliver a baby without having to take these shorts off. These are not jorts, in my opinion. I would say these are more like jundies or janties or, a jikini at best. I'm doing kegals. You can totally tell, right? And the name of this colour on the website is, tofu. And I would like to petition for them to change that to camel toe-fu.

MG: The comment section on Free People's Instagram posts selling the shorts did not disappoint. 'It looks like Depends and Levi's did a collab.' 'Brazilian wax sold separately.' Nice moment of internet unity. And then things got weirder. Another denim item recently surfaced and said, hold my beer.

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SPEAKER: A high-end fashion brand is selling a pair of jeans for $800, which appear to have a pee stain on the front. Jeans with a pee stain on the front? Please, I can make those in my sleep.

MG: JORDANLUCA, a British Italian menswear brand, is selling--yes-- jeans with a dark, wet looking stain on the groin for $1,000 Canadian. And they're sold out. What exactly does this peculiar moment in denim tell us about the larger moment that we might be in? Odessa Paloma Parker is a Toronto based writer and stylist, also contributing arts editor at The Globe Style Advisor. Odessa, hello.

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Hello. Good morning, Matt.

MG: Let's start with the jundies. As I say something that I never really expected to say on the radio before--that word, jundies. Like jean undies. Can you just, I mean, the name sort of says everything. But can you paint a picture of what they look like?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Sure. So, they are extremely, extremely small, tight fitting, sometimes distressed, like kind of giving that sort of cut-off jeans short look. But really, they're jean shorts that just look more like underwear.

MG: You might think that that was the far edge of denim design in 2024. Free People is also selling something that the internet has called 'labia shorts?'

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Yeah.

MG: What are those?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: So... Again, you know, we're looking at silhouettes that are really extreme. And I mean, you know, if you look at a person like Doja Cat or Julia Fox, we're seeing a lot of celebrities and so-called style icons really championing pieces that look more like lingerie than apparel that you would necessarily want to leave your house wearing. Some of us, most of us, I would think. But yeah, these are just really hyper body baring unmentionables. Yeah, in terms of the design.

MG: That's a polite way of putting it. There's also, I mean we heard about this, the thousand dollar, sold out, crotch-stained jeans. What would the appeal of that be, do you think?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: You know, I think that distressed denim is always going to come back into style because denim in and of itself is such a ubiquitous material and there's so much you can do with it. But I think one aspect of it that's really appealing to people is sort of like a personalization or customization aspect to it. So, I think people who are really looking to stand out would gravitate towards a pair of pants that look like they had a pee stain on them, just to really make a statement.

MG: Who's paying $1,000 for jeans that look like you wet yourself?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: I would say content creators, people who really want to go viral wearing these things.

MG: Is that what this is about? I mean, people wearing them to create a moment?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Yeah, definitely. Fashion, design, in the last ten years, I would say--I notice this on the runways, attending runway shows myself-- this real shift from, you know, thoughtful design into, what can I create that people will immediately want to take a picture of and share and say something about? It's not really so much about thoughtfulness and design anymore. It's about making a statement and continuing that virality, too. Right? And this notion of like, no press is bad press necessarily. So, to what you were saying earlier about the comment section, people can hate on these fashions all they want, but they're still going to sell.

MG: I mean, clearly. The thousand-dollar jeans are sold out. Well, and I want to come back to the role of social media in this. We're also seeing barrel jeans. For people who don't know what those are, just describe what barrel jeans are.

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: So, they're jeans that kind of have a bit of a protuberance around the thigh section. And they, you know, can definitely vacillate between something a little more subtle into something much more extreme that almost look like kind of saddlebags hanging down at your side, but it's just part of the silhouette of the denim itself.

MG: Where? And you've hinted at this, but where are these trends coming from?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Well, I've noticed a lot of surrealism creeping into fashion design in the last few years. And I certainly think that speaks to the moment we're in culturally, more largely. You know, if you look at when dadaism and those kinds of movements started in the art world, it was at a time of confusion and unrest. So, I think, again, we're seeing style sort of shift into this moment of, maybe it's a bit nihilistic. Like, people are just like, I don't know what's going on in the world, so I'm just going to express myself how I want. But I think more largely it has to do with social media sort of dictating and saying, hey, if you want to put yourself out there, people are maybe going to not like what you're wearing. But, you know, I think it's people really wanting to kind of go for it a little bit.

MG: What do you make of that? I mean, of a venue where people can make a statement, but also the times that we're in, people feeling--not encouraged--but feeling that that might be an antidote to the anxiety that people are living through or the stress that people are living through.

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: I mean, certainly adding a bit of levity to someone's day is never a bad thing. So, you know, I think the comment section and the reactions that people are having to these, like, inexplicable styles really speak to the fact that we're also craving, you know, seeing something new and unusual, but also being able to push back at it a little bit, as well. Or, maybe enjoy it and maybe say, Hey, that's something I want to try. You know, I think we're so constantly fed marketing through influencers, through boosted posts and ads on Instagram that we're just in a time of such unbridled and unhinged consumerism. So, it's hard to kind of even see the line between us being in on the joke with some of these styles and, you know, not being in on the joke. And these designers sort of laughing all the way to the bank and these brands laughing all the way to the bank, selling them.

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: You referred to the state of jeans as, 'Culture in a rut.' What did you mean by that?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Well, I think, you know, distressed denim is certainly nothing new. And I was a teenager in the 90s and we had, you know, oil slick denim and denim that look like it was dragged through, you know, a desert and sandblasted and those kinds of things. And temporally, you know, if we're looking at the trend cycle and what Gen Zs are interested in, it is going to be pieces that reference the 90s and the 2000s. So, we're seeing that cycle coming back. But, you know, I think that we have to reflect a little bit on the implications of that, too. And unfortunately, I think, you know, Gen Zers are sort of caught in the middle of wanting to express themselves, but also being very aware of mass consumption and the detriment to the planet and to the people. So, yeah. So, I think it's really just speaking to the trend cycle of, you know, not necessarily running out of ideas, but where are the ideas coming from? And if the ideas were already, you know, like what I was describing before, sort of hyper distressing and sandblasted jeans, where can you go from there, I guess is really the idea.

MG: I mean, it's interesting that it's denim, which has been-- we're going to talk more about the historical kind of, significance, if I can put it that way, of denim in just a moment-- but it's interesting that denim seems to be the venue for a lot of this expression right now. What do you make of that?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Yeah, I think denim is such an interesting and malleable fabric. You can play with washes. You can play with the silhouettes, as we spoke about earlier. And in terms of the personalization aspect, one thing that I'm finding very encouraging is people sort of adopting and looking at examples of visible mending as a way to personalize their jeans. So, if you have a hole or a tear, you're not going out to buy a new pair of jeans, you're taking them to be embroidered or fixed in a way where, you know, it's sort of like almost a badge of honour or an artistic expression of mending these pieces.

MG: It also speaks to environmental impact and the footprint of denim more broadly.

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: A hundred per cent. Yeah, definitely. But I think in general, denim is just, you know, such a staple in all of our wardrobes. So, you know, any opportunity for people to kind of individualize it a little bit, I think is very tempting.

MG: You could imagine that there are people who are listening who might say, come on, jeans are just jeans. And I mean, sure, the thousand-dollar pee stained jeans are one thing, but why should we pay attention to the trends around denim? What would you say to that person?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Well, I would definitely say, you know, fashion is always a bellwether of what's happening more broadly. And denim is something that anybody can really buy because you have, you know, fast fashion brands producing denim pieces all the way up to luxury brands. So, you're going to see peoples' interests and the way they kind of communicate sartorially, express through denim. So, it's important to keep your eye on what's happening there because it changes all the time. And sometimes it looks back. You know, and I think that denim is just sort of so omnipresent now that it's really become kind of a canvas, so to speak, for people expressing themselves.

MG: Do you have a favourite pair of jeans? I mean, I think we all--I might be wearing mine right now. We all have the ones that we love that feel so comfortable. And they're the things that you'd, if you could buy ten pair of them, perhaps you would. Because you don't want them to disappear. Do you have a favourite pair?

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: I mean, I definitely go through cycles in terms of the silhouettes. So, I always have, you know, a pair of bellbottoms in my closet. I'd love to find a pair of like, really excellent vintage, well-worn bellbottoms. But for now, you know, I found some newer pairs that work for me. I'm really into just the straight leg 90s silhouette right now. I have a very comfortable pair from Uniqlo that I've been wearing, and some people describe them as mom jeans, although I don't have any kids. So, I'm like, can I even claim that as it's my own? Or dad jeans, I guess too, if we want to just be gender-neutral about it. But definitely, you know, not, I would say they're not trying to be trendy at all. And yet, like I said, we're seeing a lot of 90s and 2000s styles coming back. So, they are indeed trendy, but they're super comfortable and I love them.

MG: Is it pejorative to call the jeans mom jeans or dad jeans? I asked this, you know, with teenagers, who would say, 'Your boring dad jeans.' I always feel like I'm being put up on it. Clearly, I'm not as stylish as I thought I used to be.

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: No, no, I think it's fine. I think it's funny because usually the people who kind of joke about that are parents. And so, I think they're a little delighted that people who maybe don't have kids are coming over to their side of prioritizing comfort over, you know, making a statement, perhaps.

MG: Odessa, thank you very much.

ODESSA PALOMA PARKER: Thank you.

MG: Odessa Paloma Parker is a Toronto based writer and stylist and contributing art editor at The Globe Style Advisor. Emma McClendon is an assistant professor of fashion studies at St. John's University in New York City. Also, the author of the book Denim: Fashion's Frontier. Emma, hello to you.

EMMA MCCLENDON: Hi. Hi, how are you?

MG: I'm well. What do you make of the denim trends that we were just discussing and the ones that we're seeing right now? People have said that this is, I mean, the Washington Post said, 'We're in another weird and glorious, exuberant age of denim.'

EMMA MCCLENDON: I absolutely love what's happening with denim right now. For me, I think it's really in many ways Gen Z kind of putting its, you know, mark on the fashion market as we're seeing. You know, we've emerged from the pandemic and Gen Z is absolutely fascinated with Y2K, with breaking the rules, with things that are weird and things that clash and things that don't make sense in fashion. And so, I think that what we're seeing in denim is absolutely a manifestation of Gen Z emerging as the leaders in fashion right now.

MG: When did denim appear on your radar?

EMMA MCCLENDON: Oh, denim is, as our previous guest said, denim is a ubiquitous fabric. Denim has been a staple of the everyday wardrobe globally for decades by this point. So, of course, growing up since my childhood, denim has been part of my wardrobe. Denim has been something I'm hyperly aware of. But for me as a scholar, I really kind of came to denim with an interest in the paradox between denim that on the one hand, it is so ubiquitous, on the one hand it is so homogenizing, but on the other hand, it is also hyperly individual, as well. That we have memories, that we have favourite jeans, that we have associations between our body and jeans and identity formation. And that's really where I came sort of into my fascination and study with it. But admittedly, I also came into my study of denim at a time when denim was really in its slumps in the market. I started studying denim about ten years ago, when there was a lot of anxiety about whether athleisure would displace denim completely and jeans would just disappear from our wardrobes.

MG: Can you just give us a quick history lesson? I mean, when did people first start to wear jeans?

EMMA MCCLENDON: Well, so I think the one major distinction that we have to make is between denim, the textile, and jeans, the garment. Denim, the textile is something that has been around for centuries. We see examples from early 19th century, late 18th century, of both men's and women's garments made out of denim that's used for workwear, hard labour, etc. Jeans, the modern blue jeans, sort of as we know it, is very much a late 19th century creation. The riveted five pocket jean that we're so familiar with, that is something credited to Levi's in the late 19th century. And it really has a very solid history for the first 50 to 70 years of its existence from Levi's and the 501's birth, as a men's workwear garment.

MG: When did it move away from that? From being something, as you said, not exclusively, but largely concentrated around men and around the work that men were doing where they would wear those jeans.

EMMA MCCLENDON: I think that the first, you know, the first foray of jeans beyond the just blue-collar workwear associations is really actually in the interwar period, in association with the growing film industry and the birth of westerns. This idea of going to dude ranches for vacationing and sort of thinking about this romanticizing of jeans as almost a costume you could wear in these scenarios. And that parlays its way into becoming something more casual for outdoor scenarios. But we don't really see it coming into the everyday wardrobe until after World War Two, in the 1950s and 1960s. And really, the 1970s is when denim and jeans explode and burst beyond their work wear barriers and become a textile for all different types of applications and all different occasions.

MG: What was going on then that would lead to that change, do you think?

EMMA MCCLENDON: A major catalyst for the explosion of denim in the 1970s are the counterculture movements and political applications of denim in the 1950s and 1960s. And that's, of course, with the hippies and the counterculture movement, you know, that we so much associate it with. But also, different uses in film and television and also within the civil rights movement, as well. We see young people championing this fabric, using this fabric, wearing it in a number of different contexts, to use it as a form of political expression. A tool of showing political ideology through what they're wearing, through their bodies, through their clothing. But in so doing, they create a really distinctive look, and that in turn spawns a trend and an interest in what young people are wearing. And so by the 1970s, this counterculture interest in denim goes mainstream and spawns the fashion industry, picking it up and translating it into all different types of garments, not unlike we're seeing today. We see people, designers creating handbags and clogs and swimsuits, you know, out of jeans, or out of material that's been made to look like denim. And so, it's a really, you know, major moment of experimentation, but also of the barriers breaking down between when it's acceptable to wear jeans and when it's not. You know, there were bans to wear it in a number of different contexts. And that all really melts away in the 70s as we see across the board, not just with denim, but a playing with the rules of dressing. What's appropriate. A real sort of, you know, conscious, you know, thumbing your nose at the status quo and what's expected. And a lot of that has to do with, again, this, the political unrest of the 60s, the Vietnam War, the women's liberation movement, the gay rights movement. There's so much happening in that decade that's contributing to just unrest and how people want to adorn their bodies. Experimentation with identity formation. And denim, given that it had such a strong connotation with being a working-class garment, being a garment for labour, being a men's garment, being a masculine garment, it becomes the perfect canvas to play with all these new notions of identity formation.

MG: Do you know what a Canadian tuxedo is?

EMMA MCCLENDON: Oh, absolutely, I know what a Canadian tuxedo is.

MG: Denim on the top, denim on the bottom.

EMMA MCCLENDON: Of course. Of course.

MG: So, is that- I mean, people could look at that, and it has been looked at in past, you know, the year of Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears wearing it [EMMA: Yes, yes.] back in 2001. People have said that, I mean, maybe that's a fashion faux pas, but then people still wear it. Because [EMMA: Yes.] a nice jean jacket is great. I mean, is that, is it a bad thing to wear? The Canadian tuxedo?

EMMA MCCLENDON: So, I think that the Canadian tuxedo is a classic example of the way opinions of denim and what you can do with denim shift and change. They ebb and flow. The 1970s, again, is a classic example of the Canadian tuxedo made real, with all denim leisure suits for men and women. Flared pants, three-piece suits made out of denim. This was all the rage in the 70s. And then it goes out of fashion, and we look back and we cringe and we're like, Dear God, what were we thinking? And the same is true of the 2000s with Britney and Justin, where, you know, there was clearly this moment of extreme experimentation and head to toe denim looks, and they became the symbol of that. And also, again, we get a few years past it and we cringe. We're in another one of these moments where head to toe denim is incredibly compelling. It seems incredibly relevant to, you know, consumers, to designers, to people sort of in all aspects of cultural production. But yes, I guarantee you, five, ten years from now we will cringe. Like this is, there is something about denim that is always challenging to our notions of taste. And I think that that goes back to the fact that denim was so strongly coded for so long as a working-class textile. And so, to wear denim head to toe is to flaunt all the traditions of taste and appropriateness. Whatever the sort of silhouette might be of that denim, to wear all denim is to take up the most potent kind of banner of going against the sartorial expectations of a given event. If you're going to wear denim on the red carpet, if you're going to wear denim in an evening context, I mean, maybe I'll be proven wrong. Maybe this will be the floodgate moment that sort of breaks every, breaks all the rules for the future. And denim just becomes a typical material for a ball gown or a wedding gown. But I don't think that that's the case. I think that we're in a moment of extreme experimentation, where denim has a cultural resonance that is making it interesting to us. And that will fade, and the pendulum will shift in the other, swing in the other direction.

MG: In this moment, just before I let you go, do you have a favourite pair of jeans?

EMMA MCCLENDON: So, my dirty secret is that I do not wear jeans.

MG: You wrote a book about denim.

EMMA MCCLENDON: This is my dirty secret. And I think my dirty secret is that I've always found jeans incredibly challenging. And I think that that's one thing that really drew me to them. Was that, for me, you know, and I'm going to date myself, you know, I was really coming of age in the early 2000s. That's when I was in high school. And this was a moment of extreme low rise and, you know, tight fitting jeans and all sorts of, you know, we think of Britney Spears, again, and her I'm a Slave For You video, where it's just like barely covering her nether regions. Right? You know, this was an age when I, you know, really sort of came to think about jeans and wearing jeans in earnest. And I think that jeans can be incredibly challenging, particularly for women. You know, particularly in terms of fit and in terms of bodies. And so, for me, I think I was fascinated with jeans for the fact that they are so charged with all these cultural connotations. They're fabulous and they're fascinating, and I would love to wear them all the time. But I have never quite found that favourite pair of jeans.

MG: Perhaps your time will come. Keep searching.

EMMA MCCLENDON: Perhaps it'll be the barrel jeans.

MG: It could be. Yeah. Not the thousand-dollar-stained jeans. Emma, thank you very much.

EMMA MCCLENDON: Yes. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

MG: Emma McClendon is an assistant professor of fashion studies at St. John's University in New York City, also the author of the book Denim: Fashion's Frontier. Well, coming up after your regional update:

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Josh is known for his home run greatness, but this shows that not only was he a great hitter, he was a great all around baseball player. The Negro Leaguers always thought they were Major Leaguers, anyway. Society made their choice when they divide them.

[Music: Theme]

MG: More than 2000 Black baseball players were part of the Negro Leagues from 1920 through 1948. Their stats were never recognized by Major League Baseball, until now. Those new numbers mean that Josh Gibson is Major League Baseball's new all-time best hitter. Coming up in about ten minutes, we'll speak with Josh Gibson's great grandson about what this recognition means for his family, and we'll speak with MLB's official historian about what this means for how we think about baseball. That's coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stick around.

[Music: Fades up]

How can criminals steal entire herds of cattle?

Guests: Geoff Morrison

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. It is every cattle farmer’s worst nightmare: you come out to the pasture and the entire herd is gone.

SOUNDCLIP

JONATHAN FORTIN: I just realized the Friday morning at 9:30, that my cattle is gone because I saw the fence open and broken and that's why I realized, Oh my God.

MG: The Quebec cattle farmer Jonathan Fortin couldn't believe his eyes. His herd of black angus cows, many with calves born just this spring, were nowhere to be found. All that was left was a broken fence and some tire tracks. The cattle were worth about $200,000.

SOUNDCLIP

JONATHAN FORTIN: It's all the life, you know. I worked so hard. It's difficult to realize what is gone, you know? Because the labour, the sacrifice you made to have a farm like this. Yeah. I'm crying a lot and right now, my farm is, it's empty. And it's difficult for me to imagine what's happened to my cattle after this event. You know?

MG: Quebec authorities are now investigating what might have happened to the cattle. Geoff Morrison has been following cases like this for years. He is the executive producer and creator of the award-winning TV series Farm Crime. Geoff, good morning.

GEOFF MORRISON: Good morning, Matt.

MG: I mean, this is, you think of, from the Westerns it would be like the rustler that would come and take the cattle and lead them away. This seems like that on an epic scale. How common are cases like this? Where an entire herd just goes missing?

GEOFF MORRISON: Yeah. I mean, from what I've seen, the stories we've looked into, cases like this are pretty rare. Certainly, where the entire herd would be taken. I mean, just the complexity of pulling off a crime like this, it's just, it's just not easy. I mean, I can think, there was a case in Athabasca County, Alberta. This was two years ago. Eighty-five head were stolen, but that was also out of a much bigger herd. So, for someone to go in and execute something like this, you know... anything more than like an animal or two, this just doesn't happen very often.

MG: I have many questions. One of which is, who is stealing cows?

GEOFF MORRISON: I mean, that's a simple answer. It's people who know cattle. There's no doubt about it.

MG: Like, another farmer? Explain more about this. Organized crime? I mean, what's going on here?

GEOFF MORRISON: Yeah. I mean, so for someone to go in there with a trailer and, you know, corral, load up these animals, cart them out of there, it--the average person can't do this. I can't do this. I'm guessing you probably couldn't do it, as well. It has to be someone that knows how to work with animals. Cattle especially. And so, to have that kind of know how, I mean, you have to have some familiarity with livestock and agriculture. I mean, I don't want to say it's another farmer necessarily, because it really could be anyone. But it is someone with some specialized knowledge.

MG: Well, and to your point, I mean, it's not like stealing a car where you can take the car and you drive it away. You put it in a shipping container and sell it off somewhere. What are the people-- whoever this is-- what are they doing with the cattle that they steal?

GEOFF MORRISON: My guess is they're going to try and move them pretty quickly. I mean...

MG: Move them, meaning what?

GEOFF MORRISON: Move them in the way that you move stolen goods. I mean, it's a-- a cow is an animal that's worth money, right? So, if there's a market for them, and I'm sure there is, there's a black market for everything, that they're going to find a buyer, and they'll find someone that might look the other way. Or someone who just might not know that these animals are stolen. I mean, it's tricky because I think in this case, the identifying marks are ear tags and those can be removed. So, my guess is they're going to try and sell these cattle as quickly as you can. Because it's, I mean, what do you do? You've got 75 head of cattle. Like that's not an easy thing to just kind of manage and look after, you know...

MG: Where do you put them? Like, there's calves, as well. You need, you need acreage to be able to put the cattle that you have stolen, right?

GEOFF MORRISON: I mean, that's exactly it. You can't keep the cattle on the trailer with you. You can't keep the animals in the trailer. You've got to feed and care for these animals. Certainly, if you want to sell them as healthy animals. It just doesn't make sense to hold on to them. That's my thought.

MG: You said something earlier that raised my attention-- that there might be a black market? Tell me more about this. What do you know about the black market for stolen cattle?

GEOFF MORRISON: Well, I mean, I don't know anything about the black market for stolen cattle.

MG: But such a thing probably exists?

GEOFF MORRISON: Yeah. Of course. I mean, you've heard the expression, 'there's a black market for everything.' And, I mean, selling 75 head of cattle is a trickier scenario. But if you can find the right buyer. I mean, like I said, someone who's unsuspecting, that doesn't realize the animals are stolen, potentially. I mean, the ear tags removed are a bit of a suspicious sign. You know? I think that might raise flags to someone. But there's, I mean, it's the same thing. Someone is always willing to look the other way. And I mean, with the stuff we've looked at for Farm Crime, we see this a lot with like produce thefts and cargo thefts. It could be like a trailer worth of blueberries or, you know, milk. There's been all sorts of produce thefts over the years.

MG: Like this huge theft of avocados in the last couple of days.

GEOFF MORRISON: Avocados, as well. Exactly. And, you know, you're probably not selling those to the back door of a Sobeys or a Metro or whatnot. But there's other places that will probably look the other way and don't care that they're stolen and are willing to accept them because they're getting it at a good deal.

MG: Like, Kijiji type things?

GEOFF MORRISON: Yeah. I mean, Kijiji has come up a number of times on the Farm Crime show. In fact, there's a story we did on our first season where there was a farmer who had stolen... this would have been about 50, 60 head. It was an inside job. And so, the analogy of the animals, it was not hard to get rid of them. The farmer was away on vacation when it happened. He put them up for sale on Kijiji. And, I mean, it's quite a heartbreaking story. He was a young farmer who was just starting his first herd, he went and bought these animals. I think he bought maybe 15, 16 head, didn't know they were stolen. But in that case, I mean, we could chat about this, there was a livestock investigator that was assigned to the case who blew the case open, tracked down the guy who stole them through his cell phone number and cell phone tower pings. Found the stolen animals through the Kjiji ad and was able to return the animals to the farmer. This was a Hanna, Alberta. And, I mean, this is a heartbreaking story, but the one thing is, I mean, this tells you something about farmers and their generosity. The victim, in this case, he gave a couple of head of cattle to this young farmer who was just starting out just because he felt so bad for him.

MG: I mean, and I don't mean to make light of this at all. This is like a huge financial hit to that farmer that we heard from earlier--$200,000. His farm is now empty. That's a lot of money in an industry and a livelihood where you were living kind of right on the knife edge. There are provinces like Saskatchewan that have laws on the books to try to stop this illegal trade in cattle. Jason Pollock is the CEO of Livestock Services in Saskatchewan. They have 65 cattle inspectors. Take a listen:

SOUNDCLIP

JASON POLLOCK: If you are attempting to sell an animal that you did not own and the animal carried a brand, there would be a requirement for you to provide proof of ownership. An individual that is in possession of stolen property, they bear the burden of proof of ownership, and our inspection team is trained in not only identifying when things seem a little bit off and asking a few questions, but also in asking around and finding that there's potentially something amiss in what's being offered for sale.

MG: Geoff, you mentioned the ear tags. Ear tags, in this case were on the cattle. But as you said, they can be removed?

GEOFF MORRISON: Yeah. I mean that's my understanding. And a removed ear tag is a flag. You know? If you come across an animal where the tags been removed, I mean, that raises questions. Like, why is that tag not there?

MG: In the old days of the West, I mean, there would be like branding, for example. When you talk about the rustlers, they would try to rebrand the cattle so that the branding disappears or something.

GEOFF MORRISON: Yeah. I mean, branding is still quite popular, but that's out in the West. Typically, in B.C., Alberta and Saskatchewan, I think of like around 50 per cent of animals are still branded. And I mean, you would speak to someone like Jason or the livestock investigators that we've worked with in Alberta, and they say, you know, branding is the gold standard. Tattoos, as well, in the ear or the lip, can also work. Because you can't just remove these tags or, sorry, these tags, but you can't just remove these markings. And I mean, the history of branding goes back to the 1800s. You know, once a farmer has registered their brand, any time that animal, a suspicious animal shows up at auction or anywhere else, you can immediately identify the brand and trace it back to the original owner. But it's not done as much, at least in Quebec, Ontario. It's just not nearly as common.

MG: What does a story like this tell you? Part of this is about a market and value, and people trying to exploit value in a side market, in an alternate market. Right?

GEOFF MORRISON: Yeah. I mean, it's... I don't know. I've been working on this project off and on for about six or seven years now and, you know, three seasons of the show, they're all like heartbreaking stories. I mean, this one in particular, I mean, the farmer was working two off-farm jobs just to make a living. And like, for 200--or, sorry--for 75 animals to go missing, you know, $200,000 worth, is just, it's heartbreaking, you know? I mean, it's like any crime, though. I mean, this is the thing is, farm crime isn't that different from any other theft or fraud. It's someone doing something they shouldn't be doing and leaving people, leaving victims in their wake, you know? It's just, it's heartbreaking. And I think, you know, we often have this kind of picture of farming communities as being very trusting and idyllic. And I'd like to think, you know, with the work we've done with farmers on the show, like that is still maybe the norm. But like, stuff like this still happens.

MG: This is quite something. Geoff, thank you very much.

GEOFF MORRISON: You're welcome.

MG: Geoff Morrison is executive producer and creator of the TV series Farm Crime. You can stream three seasons of that program on CBC Gem.

[Music: Instrumental]

Josh Gibson is now baseball’s best hitter — almost 80 years after his death

Guests: Sean Gibson, John Thorn

MG: This is The Current on CBC radio. My name is Matt Galloway. Major League Baseball may just have a new all time best hitter, and he hasn't swung a bat in over seven decades. Josh Gibson was a legend in the segregated Negro Leagues. This week, MLB integrated stats from those leagues into its records, and Gibson now tops Major League Baseball's career charts with a batting average of 372. That's above Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth. Sean Gibson is Josh Gibson's great grandson. John Thorn is MLB's official historian. He chaired the committee responsible for incorporating Negro League statistics into MLB. And they both join us now. Good morning to you both.

SEAN GIBSON: Good morning.

My pleasure to join you.

MG: Sean, how does it feel to have your great grandfather's achievements officially recognized and officially recognized by the folks at Major League Baseball?

SEAN GIBSON: Well, I mean, it's a great day. It's a great day not just for Josh Gibson, but all the great family members in the Negro Leagues. It's exciting for all of us. We're very excited to finally see this come together. Of course, as you mentioned, Josh is one of the top leaders in several categories. So, it was a great day for the family. But for me, myself, I'm more excited about the other family members. You know, there's a lot of family members out there that are very excited. And also, the lesser-known names. Everybody knows about Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige, but, you know, some of these lesser-known names will now finally get some recognition as well.

MG: Satchel Paige called your great grandfather superhuman. What do we know about who he was?

SEAN GIBSON: Yeah, that's a great compliment. You know, you all know the stories about Josh Gibson on the diamond, but he was also a great family man. You know, his wife died giving birth to their twins. So, he was a single parent at the age 18. So, there's a lot of history to go with Josh Gibson outside of baseball. But the great thing about it is, is that now he's been recognized as one of the greatest baseball players of all time. No matter what the colour of his skin is.

MG: They said he was built like sheet metal.

SEAN GIBSON: Hey, I wish I was built like sheet metal. I mean...

MG: He was tough as nails, right?

SEAN GIBSON: Well, you know, back in those days here, you had to work hard. I mean, you know, we see pictures of Josh Gibson when he was younger, and he never lifted a weight. But he was definitely, you know, tough as nails. Nice body. But, you know, back in those days, those guys worked hard on their physique. And just worked hard to play the game of baseball. And they had to go through a lot just to play the game. Endure a lot just to play the game of baseball. But, yeah, he was very chiseled for his, you know, you can see his forearms. He was known for his forearms. So, that's where I guess he'd get that power for the home runs.

MG: John Thorn, Sean mentioned some of the stories that people may or may not know about his great grandfather on the diamond. There are people who consider him one of the best baseball players, certainly of all time. He's now ranked as if not one of the best, the best hitter of all time. Tell us some of those stories. Why was he so great?

JOHN THORN: Well, Josh Gibson, as of yesterday morning, tops the all-time list in single season and career batting average, slugging percentage and on-base plus slugging. These are the traditional metrics for judging our stars. And Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth now take a back seat. Barry Bonds as well. And the story is, of course, much larger than Josh Gibson as Sean has indicated. There are 2300 plus Negro League players, some of them cup of coffee types. Supernumeraries. Who now can have their ancestors, have their descendants say, My great grandfather is right there in the record book, next to Josh Gibson, next to Babe Ruth.

MG: There were stories-- I mean, part of this is you don't know how much is true and what is apocryphal-- but stories of him hitting, like, 600-foot home runs. That he would knock the ball out, like, literally out of Yankee Stadium. John, do we know whether those are true?

JOHN THORN: No. We don't know that. And the apocryphal, the legend, is not diminished by the evidence. The whole purpose behind MLB's adoption of the Negro League statistics of 1920 through 1948 into its official historical record is not to kill the legends. Satchel Paige used to say that he won 2000 games and threw a thousand shutouts. And, of course, this is ridiculous on his face. It's in the same legion as Paul Bunyan and his blue ox and George Washington and the cherry tree. But we accept the legend with a wink and a nod while we look at the evidence.

MG: For people who don't know the history, John, just remind us what the Negro Leagues were. And, I mean, now it seems almost unimaginable. But the players who were there, I mean, Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson among them, were some of the best players in baseball at the time. Why were those leagues in existence? And just describe what the conditions were like that they played in, those players?

JOHN THORN: Well, the white stars of that day, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, all recognized that the Negro League stars would have been stars in the white Major Leagues, too. And the reason for the Negro League's formation and continuing vibrancy for 29 years was MLB's exclusion. And the segregation that ruled in custom and practice, in the law, obtained in baseball, as well. And it is just wonderful to contemplate that baseball's history book is now inclusive, as its on field play may not have been.

MG: Josh Gibson played for the Pittsburgh Crawfords and the Homestead Greys. How would you rank those teams in terms of, you know, how would people think of them in the pantheon of baseball?

JOHN THORN: Well, if you want to think of the Black Yankees or the Black Cardinals or the black Giants and Black Dodgers, it's in that realm. And these were the teams that had continuing financial success, though not without worries. While a lot of other leagues and teams came and went.

MG: Sean, you co-founded the Negro League's Family Alliance, and you mentioned the other families whose stories now are being told. What are you hearing from those other families about what this moment means to them?

SEAN GIBSON: Oh, man. You know, so as you say, I'm actually the co-founder of Nergro League's Family Alliance. We had a call last night, around 9:30 last night and kind of soaked everything in. It was great, man. You know, 'finally' was one of the words they used. 'We wish our relatives could be alive to see this moment happen.' You know, 'What are our relatives saying up in heaven.' And, you know, celebrating. So, there was a lot of great conversations going on last night. But, you know, overall, man, like I said, it's just a joyous day. Not just for the families, but for the fans. There's a lot of fans out there who celebrate and love the Negro League. So, you know, we're all excited about this. And, you know, I'm glad that some of the family members had also had a chance to get interviewed. I spoke to Turkey Stearnes' daughter last night. Joyce. She got, she did an interview in Detroit. And, you know, John knows this very well. I'm very excited for one of our members who is Ron Teasley, who is 97 years old. And now he'll be able to see his name in MLB database. So, that's more important for me right now. So, I'm very excited about that.

MG: Do you ever think about what your great grandfather went through while he was playing?

SEAN GIBSON: Oh, for sure. All the time. I mean, you know. I [unclear.] And just, you know, I teach our kids through our Josh Gibson Foundation, and I use a lot of Negro League's players, what they had to endure and overcome adversity. And like I told people the other day, is that, you know, Major League Baseball players, you know, they woke up every day, went to bed in their own bed, ate in their own restaurants, was able to go certain places. You know, Negro League baseball players had the challenges of just being able to stay a certain hotel. Stay in certain restaurants, deal with the racism. So, they had to endure all those things even before they even get to the stadium and get to the diamond. So, just the adversities these guys had to go through just to even play the game of baseball. And not just play the game of baseball but do it very well. And that's the most important thing. And I think, I want to say this. And John, I really appreciate him being the leader of this. But when you look at the Negro League stats, yes, there are stats. But there's a lot of history to go with those stats. There's a lot of history to go with those stats. And I want people to realize that, you know, you see Josh's batting average of 466. He earned it. Everything these guys, all these stats these guys have, they earned them. They were not given any records. They were not given any statistics. They earned everything they've received through Major League Baseball.

JOHN THORN: Why, John, was this so important for you and for Major League Baseball?

JOHN THORN: Well, the idea that the past can be undone, of course, is silly. The past is the past. But reparations are possible, repair is possible. And MLB, in an act of some contrition, has recognized its role in establishing the Negro Leagues, the reason for their very being, and in a way, ending the Negro Leagues. Because the integration of Jackie Robinson, Larry Doby, Satchel Paige and so many others spell the doom of the Negro National League after 1948. The end of the Negro League World Series. And the Negro American League kind of limped along largely as a barnstorming outfit, until maybe 1960. Now, lots of stars emerged from the remaining Negro American League. And that's Ernie Banks, Hank Aaron and so on. But MLB has recognized that it has something to answer for and is making repair.

MG: In doing this work--this is a long process for you-- how did you go about gathering the information, verifying the information? We talked about the apocryphal stories. But gathering the stats such that they would stack up and that somebody couldn't say that this was just an exercise. That actually, that the math and the numbers add up. How did you go about doing that?

JOHN THORN: Well, the granular level of detail is attributable to researchers who have been at this for decades. Larry Tesler, Kevin Johnson, Gary Ashwill. So, my coming in to chair this statistical review committee is late in the day, and we lean upon the efforts of researchers and diggers and people who were reading Black newspapers on microfilm and microfiche before they were digitized, and reconstructing from game accounts, play by plays and box scores. And we have, you know, barely 72, 73 per cent of the box scores to date. We are optimistic that we will find more and perhaps even find new players. But this is version 1.0. This is an interim release we feel good about releasing to the public, but we're going to get better.

MG: It feels like a time machine in some ways. Going back through that history.

JOHN THORN: It is a time machine. And the idea that the statistics are more important than the stories, and Sean will corroborate this, is wrong. The statistics are the stenographic record of Major League Baseball's history. And if you want to dig deeper, the stats are mere mileposts. And they are signs to the stories. And while most fans will not delve into the story of Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston or Mule Suttles or Turkey Sterns, they may content themselves with the stats. And at least we have that.

MG: Should it change how we think about baseball?

JOHN THORN: I think it does change the way we think about baseball. That baseball had this unfortunate period between 1884 and 1946 when Blacks were explicitly excluded. And then there was a gentlemen's agreement, which is a hilarious term, of course, because these were no gentlemen. And Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis continued the policy of keeping Blacks out while winking and nodding at the public that perhaps the Blacks, the lack people in the Negro Leagues were not of adequate calibre to play in the white majors.

MG: Sean, how do you think this changes how we should think about baseball?

SEAN GIBSON: Well, you know, John hit it, but I definitely think that, you know, the one thing I would definitely want to say is that, how we change baseball is that now you have Negro League stats. You know, we call baseball America's pastime. Well, how can it be America's pass time when you have, you had a segregated part of the season up until 1946. And now that has changed. And, you know, some people are to say, you know, certain players are the greatest of all time, a Major League Baseball star. And I say, Well, how can you say that when they never played against African-American players? And now we can actually see with these stats being incorporated, now we can actually see who can be considered some of the greatest baseball players of all time, because now it's kind of equal. And we still understand that these guys did not play in the major leagues. But we also know that a lot of the Major League baseball players played against Negro League baseball players. And, you know, I'll go back to this, as we all know, in Ted Williams' speech in 1966, his Hall of Fame speech was no longer than three minutes long. And he mentions that he hoped that one day that Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige can get their due diligence into the Baseball Hall of Fame. So, that tells you right there the importance of Negro League baseball players. When you have someone like a Ted Williams who speaks on their behalf, and then five years later, Satchel goes in in 71' and Josh goes in in 72'.

MG: What a moment. This is a great story. I'm glad to talk to you both about it. Thank you very much.

JOHN THORN: Thank you, Matt.

SEAN GIBSON: Thank you.

MG: Sean Gibson is the great grandson of the legendary baseball player Josh Gibson, and John Thorn is the official historian for Major League Baseball. That's The Current for this Thursday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. There have long been, of course, deep connections between baseball and jazz. Some of the great jazz legends were fans of the game. Charlie Parker followed the Kansas City Monarchs, Ella Fitzgerald hung out with the Dodgers and Louis Armstrong, I didn't know this, Louis Armstrong had his very own team in Louisiana, the Secret 9. I'll leave you with some Louis Armstrong, What a Wonderful World. I'm Matt Galloway, thanks for listening to The Current, and we'll see you tomorrow.

[Music: 'What a Wonderful World' by Louis Armstrong]

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Thursday May 30, 2024 Full Transcript

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