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Crime Story Episode 33: Sara Forden

Host: Kathleen Goldhar

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The following episode contains difficult subject matter. Please take care while listening.

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SARA FORDEN: On the day that he died, she wrote one word in her diary, and it was Paradiso, which means Paradise.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: There's a famous expression in Italy, where there's family, there's love. But if you were able to pry open the history of every family on Earth, how many small wars with huge, horrible consequences would you uncover? There are fights about money and power, misunderstandings and hurt feelings. Sometimes, it's just one of these things that tears a family apart. But when it came to the Guccis, it was about all of these things. The famous family of fashion were notorious for their infighting, uncles against nephews, fathers against sons. But on March 27th, 1995, the feud reached a whole new level when Maurizio Gucci was killed by an assassin hired by someone inside the family. Sara Gay Forden was a business journalist in Milan when the news broke and immediately jumped on the story. The whole spicy saga is told in incredible detail in her book, House of Gucci: A Sensational Story of Murder, Madness, Glamour and Greed. I'm Kathleen Goldhar. Welcome to Crime Story.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Sara, this book is fantastic and it reads like a screenplay. Not surprising, it turned into one, which we'll get into, or at least became the basis for the famous House of Gucci, which a lot of us have seen. But I think to understand the impact of Maurizio’s murder, we have to understand the Guccis and who they were at the sort of height of their power and their strength. So can you give me a Coles Notes version, a podcast version of the Guccis and sort of where they came from and how they became who they were at their height?

SARA FORDEN: Absolutely. And, you know, really, it all was about the family and started with the family. And even though there were kind of legends spun by some of them that they were, you know, Sadler's to nobility and they came from sort of an elite upbringing, in fact, the opposite was true. They were very simple, hardworking people. When Guccio Gucci, who was the founder, was a young man, he actually left home because his family had a straw hat making factory and there wasn't enough work to go around. And he left home and, you know, got on the ship and went to London and saw his fortunes in London. And so that was really the beginning. And that was critical as part of the origin story, because it was in the Savoy Hotel where he got a job, we don't know if he was a bellhop or a porter or a, you know, chef's assistant, but he got to see Europe's elite travelling with their beautiful luggage. And that's where he got the idea to start a luggage shop when he got back to Florence.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It's funny, you know? So I don't have very many high quality fashionable clothes or things. And of course, I knew Gucci. But I have to tell you this great story. I was out having a drink with some friends on a patio, and one of my more fashionable friends came to dinner and she was wearing this scarf. And I said to her, that's such a beautiful scarf. And she opened it up and I said, is it a Gucci? Because I read in your book about the floral scarf. And I was so proud of myself, and I said, I can tell you the history of that scarf. And it was from your book. So I was so glad to be able to like show off my like fashion history.

SARA FORDEN: Fantastic.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And what I loved about the book was like, you know, I didn't think that I would get so engaged in the history of fashion, but the way you tell it and the Guccis, because they're just such interesting, intense characters, and that their fashion evolution is so wrapped up in who they are, it just really comes out. And what also comes out, and I want you to talk a bit about, is just how intensely it was about family. Like that company, for three generations, until Maurizio came around, was family run. There was no shift in that.

SARA FORDEN: Yeah. And they were really larger than life characters. And I think that's one of the things that also, you know, helped fuel the sort of the success and the notoriety of the brand because they really put their personalities into it. And Aldo in particular, so Aldo was the oldest son or one of the sons of Guccio, and he was really a natural marketing genius. I mean, before there was such a thing as marketing as a field, Aldo was the marketer. And he was the one who came up with the notion that the Guccis were Sadler's to the nobility. He came up with the idea to bring Gucci to the United States. He was the one who came up with the phrase quality is remembered long after price is forgotten, and had the little leather plaques embossed with those words for the stores. So while Guccio, the founder, sort of gave the stamp of family and of quality and of, you know, stability, Aldo was the one who really, you know, blew it out of the park. And there's another saying in Italy, which is the first generation creates, the second generation expands, and the third generation destroys. And that's almost what happened in Gucci’s story.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, for sure. So tell me where Maurizio fits into the family.

SARA FORDEN: So Maurizio is the son of Rodolfo, who is the brother of Aldo. So we start with Guccio, then we have the two brothers who end up really running the business 50-50, Aldo and Rodolfo. And Aldo has three sons and Rodolfo has one son. So already, you can see there's an imbalance here. And the one son ends up with 50% and his three cousins end up with and the uncle end up with the other 50%. And that's one of the things that starts to tip the company and the family into conflict. But Maurizio grows up in Milan. He has a very sheltered childhood. His father is very autocratic, as the men in the Gucci family tend to be. And he comes up with the idea. I mean, he initially doesn't, you know, want to be that involved. And his father initially wasn't that involved in the business because his father wanted to go off to be a movie actor. So there’s a whole little chapter.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, he was for a while.

SARA FORDEN: Yes.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

SARA FORDEN: And then he comes back into the fold and he takes over the Milan store and he does some designing. The scarf store was Rodolfo’s idea, and he does some designing of handbags for the Milan store. But when Maurizio comes of age, he had actually trained as a lawyer at the state university in Milan. But he decides that he wants to create a new version for Gucci. And this was in the 80s. And he sees that it's kind of gone down-market, you know, the Gucci plastic handbag collection, which was incredibly profitable but kind of cheesy looking. And so he comes up with the plan to bring Gucci back to its former glory, and he wants to put it on a par with the great French brands like Hermès and Chanel. And he thinks that Gucci could be like the Hermès of Italy. That's where I started. I got the idea to write this book because I thought, you know, at the end of the day, nobody's going to remember, you know, what Maurizio Gucci did? But he really laid the foundation for everything that Gucci has become since then.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And he had sort of a contentious relationship with his father, at least when he got older, because he wanted to marry somebody who his dad didn't approve of.

SARA FORDEN: Yes. And his father was very controlling. I mean, he basically hardly even gave him pocket money. You know, he didn't really have any experience. He wasn't actually working in the company as a younger man. He was sort of hiding from his father that he was going out on dates with Patrizia, who he'd absolutely fallen for. Patrizia was a very kind of, you know, she wasn't like the other Milanese girls that, you know, were running in his social circle. She was provocative. She was unconventional. She was very smart and very beautiful. And he completely went head over heels for her. And his father was very angry because he thought she was a gold digger, a social climber. And she had come from very humble beginnings herself. Long story short, she ended up moving to Milan, and they met at a party, you know, with mutual friends.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Played by, in the movie that your book is based on, Lady Gaga.

SARA FORDEN: She was fantastic. Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

SARA FORDEN: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What I did find, you know, I have to tell you, when I saw the movie long before I read your book, I really enjoyed it because I like the actors and I like the story. But I did find it a bit… like I didn't engage with the characters as much as I had hoped. But then after reading your book, I actually went and watched the movie a couple of days ago just because I wanted to remind myself and see how they did it. And a lot of things that were subtle in the movie was helped along by knowing more about the characters.

SARA FORDEN: About the characters. Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You know, like, yeah. And it just made you realize, obviously, what more you can do in a book, because then the shift in their relationship was a bit more understanding. And Patrizia's personality, I understood it better after reading your book.

SARA FORDEN: Yeah, you can really see the transformation. So, you know, Patrizia starts as a young kind of girl who's just kind of having fun in, you know, in Milan, and then she evolves into this sort of jealous, you know, scorned, angry woman. And you see also Maurizio evolve from the young, young boy who's kind of under his father's thumb to the sort of CEO who's, you know, putting his vision for his company in place.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah. But when they first got… they did get married, and there was sort of a split with the dad for a while, and then he started working for Gucci. Their marriage was quite wonderful and that partnership was quite wonderful. Can you talk a little bit initially about them as a couple? Because I think Patrizia did offer Maurizio a lot of valuable self-confidence or whatever. Like it gave him a lot, right, initially.

SARA FORDEN: Yeah, the early days of their marriage were very good, very positive. And she really supported him. You know, she was pushing him to being kind of the captain of industry. She wanted him to be like the head of sort of, you know, Milan, the Milanese fashion circuit. And she had ideas. But as their relationship evolved, he found her to be more oppressive and more controlling, and he sort of felt like he'd actually ended up sort of marrying his father, and that he was trying to grow, you know, beyond that. And that’s when things started to crater. And particularly, they started to crater when she was starting to push him about what her vision was for the company. And as you saw in the book, I mean, there's also kind of a family tradition of excluding women from the family business.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

SARA FORDEN: So Grimalda, who was Guccio’s daughter, gets cut out of his will and doesn't get a stake in the company. And then when Patrizia tries to, you know, have her say in the business, he cuts her out.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Can you go a little more detail into where that conflict started? How did what seemed like sort of a quite nice beginning, what was it particularly that was happening that was sort of starting to tear them apart?

SARA FORDEN: Well, she wanted to design. She was actually designing a line of jewellery, which was in the stores. And she was also trying to convince Maurizio to hire a fashion designer. So initially, it was really like a different vision for the company. And he wanted to do something that was more classic and more luxury, and she wanted to do something that was more cutting edge, you know, in the fashion sense. And as he was starting to build his plan and, you know, get his, you know, he was doing the stealth acquisitions to buy out his cousins and his uncle, and he was negotiating a partnership with Invesco. So he was doing things that had never been done before by Gucci, and he wanted to take it in a different direction. And so they really clashed over the different, different visions.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And obviously a stressful time. And you mentioned that one of the things he was doing was getting… when all that panned out, Maurizio was the guy who took, at least even initially, was the first time that somebody outside the family had a stake in Gucci.

SARA FORDEN: Right. Yeah. So he brought in, you know, an outside investor because he didn't have the money to buy out his family himself. So he had to figure out how is he going to get control. You know, and he used to say, you know, there's too many cooks in the kitchen, because it wasn't just Patrizia. Also, you know, the cousins had different visions. His uncle Aldo had a different vision, and they were all doing their own licensing deals with the Gucci name. So you had like a Gucci scotch, and you had Gucci desk sets, and you had Gucci wallets. You know, so there was no coherence at all in the brand image. And at that point, Maurizio, you know, he was studying the industry, and he knew that they needed to create a consistent vision and image for the company.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So things between Maurizio and his wife get to the point of divorce. So they separate. How contentious was the separation and the divorce?

SARA FORDEN: It was very, very messy. She was very angry. They were fighting all the time over money. She would keep the girls. They had two daughters. She would keep the girls from seeing him. Or he would come to pick them up and she would say, well, they're not, you know, they're busy. They can't see you. And they actually went back… they did two divorce agreements, because they'd signed the first one and then she wasn't satisfied with the financial arrangement. And so she went back and they signed a second one, which was very, you know, very beneficial to her.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And also, he was at times pretty absent with the kids. Like she got ill. There's a story where she gets ill and he doesn't help. And that really seemed to sort of click with her that her ex had changed.

SARA FORDEN: Yes. I mean, she felt that here she was, she had a brain tumour. And the day that she went into surgery, he didn't show up. And she really felt that was a real cut to her because even though they were divorced, he was still the father of their children. And she felt, you know, it was scary. And she felt like she could have died and he wouldn’t have been there.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So at the time of his death, where was he living? What was he doing in his life?

SARA FORDEN: So this was in 1995. He had lost control, you know, because again, the relationship with Invesco also cratered because the company wasn't profitable and it was losing money, you know, hand over fist. And they lost their trust in him. They thought that he was kind of playing, playing a game with them. So they had a big, a big war and they forced him out. And he had to leave the company, but he got $120 million for his 50% stake in Gucci. I mean, these figures now sound, you know, sound minimal compared to where the company is today. But at the time, obviously, it was a lot of money. And he had set up his own, his own firm. He was looking to invest in other kinds of companies. And so he had set up an office in Milan, near his apartment in downtown Milan, and he was just evaluating like potential investments.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And what happens? Tell me about how he was killed.

SARA FORDEN: So this was really, really a shocking, a shocking turn of events. And it was a mourning like any other. He was walking down the street in downtown Milan, right near the main gardens. And he goes in his front door, greets the doorman, and a killer comes up the steps behind him with the gun and shoots him in cold blood at, you know, 8:30 in the morning. And this news of this just reverberates, you know, not only around the city, but around the country, around the world. I mean, Milan is not a violent city. It's not a place where shootings happened. It was unheard of for a businessman of his calibre to be just gunned down in cold blood in the middle of the day.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And who did police and the public kind of figure was behind it?

SARA FORDEN: I mean, they initially thought it was some sort of, you know, settling of accounts. They didn't know if it was Mafia. They didn't know if he was in debt. You know, they were looking kind of into his business deals. One of the businesses he had examined was a casino, a gambling operation in Switzerland. So they thought maybe there was something, you know, sinister about that. But all the investigations just led to a dead end, and two years went by and they were completely stumped. You know, the investigation had gone cold.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But eventually, they land on Patrizia. How do they get there? I mean, it really is spectacular the way they figure out who did it.

SARA FORDEN: It was, again, another stunning turn of events. So it happened that one of the accomplices was sort of trading, you know, you know, bravado stories with the friend, you know, hot summer night in August, and he comes up with this story that he shares about how he knows who killed Maurizio Gucci. And so the man, the friend that he tells the story to decides that he's going to, you know, tip off the police. And he's trying to call the courthouse to get through to the prosecutor on the case, and the operator won't put him through unless he tells his name. But he's also had some bit of a checkered past, so he doesn't want to give his name to somebody he doesn't know. And so he gives up. And then one evening, he happens to see the head of the criminal pole, which is another division of the Justice Department there, interviewed on television, and he thinks he looks like a nice guy who he can trust. And so he calls. He calls up his office, and he asks to be put through to him. And they meet and he tells the story, and that's how the investigation starts back up again.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So what did they find out? Tell me about how this murder was arranged and who, you know, who did it sort of deal.

SARA FORDEN: Yeah. So I mean, it all goes back to Patrizia, and she's just so troubled and angry about how things are going with Maurizio. And she's also very aware of two things. One, that he’s spending money hand over fist, and he's renovating his apartment, and he's refurbishing this beautiful historic sailing yacht that he bought. And the money is just flowing like wine.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And he's living with a new woman.

SARA FORDEN: And he's living with a new woman. So there's also…

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: A very beautiful blonde, lanky woman very opposite from her.

SARA FORDEN: Opposite from Patrizia, who’s very short and dark.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

SARA FORDEN: And so she becomes obsessed with the idea that she has to kill him. And it's really like an obsessive hatred that just keeps… she keeps fermenting. And every day, she's like, oh, we've got to do something about Maurizio. And she is pressing her friend Pina, who's from Naples, to find a killer to kill Maurizio. She just wants to, you know, put him out of… put herself out of her misery by killing him. And, you know, Pina at first says no, no, no. And then it's like this obsession just kind of gets to Pina too. And so she finally, you know, calls a few friends and comes up with the killer and another friend who's a driver.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: In the movie, Pina is their… is her astrologer or her sort of… Is that the same?

SARA FORDEN: Yes.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Is that the same thing? I can't remember now if that’s the same.

SARA FORDEN: So they nickname her the Maga, which means like the… Maga is a witch, but also like a soothsayer or a fortune teller. She wasn't really a psychic or a fortune teller, but she was entertaining to Patrizia, and she would like read her cards. So she would do tarot cards, but she didn't have any particular, you know, talents in that area.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Okay.

SARA FORDEN: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So they're all arrested. The trial I found fascinating. I mean, one, it's very different from a North American trial, but also, Patrizia never gives in to this. Tell me, like Patrizia tried to get Pina to carry it all.

SARA FORDEN: So Patrizia had two defence strategies, which in and of itself is sort of circumspect because the first one was that she because of the brain surgery, the lawyers argued that she wasn't like mentally competent to stand trial. So that was one. The second was that she didn't ever mean to really have Maurizio killed, but that it was Pina who took it upon herself to come up with this plan and carry it out, and that Pina was blackmailing her for the money. And so she, you know, presents herself as kind of Pinas victim.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And what did the prosecution have, though, to counter that?

SARA FORDEN: So she was… first of all, she was making notes about every, like every movement of Maurizio. So she knew like what if he was there, if he was travelling and, you know, who he was with. She was kind of obsessively tracking him. And then on the day that he died, she wrote one word in her diary. And it was Paradiso, which means Paradise. So that's not proof in and of itself, but it was pretty clear.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It was suspicious. And for such a smart woman, it seems kind of crazy that she would write all this stuff. There was also a cassette, right? She sent Maurizio a pretty threatening…

SARA FORDEN: She sent several of these cassettes. And this you see in the movie, there's a scene where Maurizio and his girlfriend pal are coming back from playing tennis, and they like hit the answering machine, and you can hear these words, and they're the exact words that I typed into my manuscript. But at the time, Patrizia was actually recording like, you know, cassettes, tapes, and mailing them to Maurizio. She mailed several of them. And she would say, you know, Maurizio, the end for you is yet to come. And, you know, just vitriolic.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What do you think? I mean, in your book there are sort of two pictures of Patrizia painted of like one, the strong woman who's trying to help her husband, and then the other woman who sort of gets obsessed and loses herself to this and then who she presents at trial. What do you think?

SARA FORDEN: Well, I think that the judge was actually very clever because he ordered a psychiatric evaluation of Patrizia. And I think that was very revealing. And they diagnosed her with a narcissistic personality disorder. And the way they sort of explained it was that as long as everything was going well in her life, you know, she was fine. But when things started to go downhill, she kind of took everything as a personal attack. So for example, when Maurizio lost control of Gucci, you know, that was from his own mismanagement. You know, of course, he didn't want to lose control, but, you know, things got out of hand. And yet, Patrizia interpreted that as something like an attack on her. You know, she said, he shouldn't have done that to me. Because for her, that was like, in addition to getting divorced, that was like the second blow was just losing all her status as La Senora Gucci. So as you see, like at the end of the movie, you know, and when the judge is, you know, calling her name, you know, Senora Reggiani, Senora Reggiani, and then she kind of comes too and says, you can call me Senora Gucci. That was sort of to convey. Like for her, it was about repossessing the status as the Senora Gucci. And I think that was very much what it was about for her, regaining the status that she had, you know, had and lost. And two, I really think it was about turning off the money spigots. Like she was afraid that if Maurizio spent all the money, there was going to be nothing left to support her very lavish lifestyle and the daughters. And she could argue that it was for the daughters. But I think she also, you know, had a very expensive styled life.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I mean, I like the image. There was one before she was arrested or on the courthouse steps with her dripping in gold and furs and talking about how horrible her life had become.

SARA FORDEN: Yes. Yeah, she was defiant.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So what ends up happening to them, to the four? They're found guilty and then…

SARA FORDEN: So they're all convicted. They're all sentenced to jail. And the killer got a life sentence. Patrizia got 29 years, which actually infuriated the prosecutor because he felt that she, you know, should have been, you know, subject to the full sentence. And the others got, you know, varying degrees of jail time. But Patrizia, you know, between good behaviour and, you know, time off for good behavior, she was able to reduce her sentence quite significantly.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So where is she? She's out now?

SARA FORDEN: So she's out. She's free. She's living in Milan. She's living in her mother's house. Her mom has since passed away. She keeps a pretty low profile these days, but there were some sightings of her. Like, as I said, she was always kind of unconventional and provocative. Well, there were some photos that you could find of her walking around Milan with a huge parrot on her shoulder.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That's hilarious. Not exactly a low profile.

SARA FORDEN: Like what is it? A cockatoo?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Oh, yeah.

SARA FORDEN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Oh. And how about their daughters? I mean, they were… obviously, they’ve lost their dad, but are they still… like what's their relationship like with their mom now?

SARA FORDEN: So the daughters were very much sort of in her orbit and under her influence. But over time, I think they came around to really see like how much they had lost in terms of not really, you know, being able to spend time with their father. And the younger daughter, Allegra, actually wrote a book a few years ago where she wanted to tell her side of the story. And so there was an interview, I believe in Vanity Fair, where she talks about her experience with her mom. And so while initially they were very defensive of their mother and aligned with her and protective of her, Allegra in particular came around to seeing her very differently.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Hmm. And how about the Gucci name and the Gucci stores and all that? Like, you know, is there any Gucci family connection? Are they still working? Do they still try to instill that history? Like where's the company at?

SARA FORDEN: So the company is now owned by a big French conglomerate called Kering, k-e-r-i-n-g. It's run by a French billionaire called Francois-Henri Pinault. And he really came on the stage as a challenger to the kind of the king of luxury who is Bernard Arnault, who owns LVMH Group and Louis Vuitton and Christian Dior. And he's kind of the king of that sector. But the Pinault family really kind of gave him a run for his money and established themselves as a viable number two player. And Gucci, Gucci has kind of continued its sort of rise and fall and rise and fall, but it's still, you know, a big money maker and, you know, considered, you know, among the top luxury brands.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: One of the things I found interesting in your book is that you compare the Gucci trial and the Gucci murder to the O.J. Simpson murder and trial in America. Can you explain that? Can you talk about what it meant to Italians especially?

SARA FORDEN: I mean, everybody was riveted by this trial, and nothing had ever happened quite like it. And it was just I think also, you know, all families have some degree of conflict, and Italy in particular has a lot of family industry. So like the Gucci story, you know, could be any number of stories. It's really kind of symbolic of other family stories and battles. So I think the fact that all of the dirty laundry was coming out, you know, into the public was just… it was very salacious. And, you know, obviously, you’ve got the strong characters and colourful characters and the fashion brand. So people were just hooked on it as though it were like a reality TV.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah. And I guess in Italy too, I mean, they were so rich compared to probably a lot of the population.

SARA FORDEN: Yeah. I mean, the money, the glamour, the passion. I mean, it's really… like it is like a real life novel.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It really is, which you turned it into. Anything… like do you feel like you… what did you get out of investigating and sort of diving in to this story? What do you take with you now that it's been many years?

SARA FORDEN: It was an incredible story. And I had always, you know, I was a beat reporter. You know, I was covering the Daily News, and I always wanted to write a book. And my models were kind of the big, you know, Wall Street financial books like Den of Thieves and Barbarians at the Gate. So I was kind of studying those works and thinking, what am I going to write about? You know, I'm not a fiction writer. I'm not a novelist. I'm a journalist. I need a real story. And it was through the years of covering Gucci kind of in and out that I began to see that there was a narrative and there was a bigger arc and there was a deeper story to tell. But then I could also put into it all the reporting I had done on the Italian fashion industry. So it's more than just, you know, the story of the family, but it's also the story of this country and its history and how important the fashion industry, the, the craftsmanship and the workmanship, how important those trends were to the country. And then what I take away from it I think is that, you know, at the end of the day, you know, blood is thicker than water. You know, the family ties are the ties that tore the people and the company apart. And if you look at what happened later when Tom Ford and Domenico De Sole were running Gucci, they created a partnership that’s last to this day. And they created a level of trust and understanding even though they weren't family. So I thought that was kind of profound.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah. Really. Well, thank you. I mean, bringing us the dysfunction of this family was really a great read, and I appreciate the time you gave us today.

SARA FORDEN: Well, thanks for your interest and great, great questions.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. We drop a new episode every Monday. You can get our next episode a week early on CBC Podcasts’ YouTube channel or by subscribing to the CBC Podcasts’ true crime channel on Apple Podcasts. In addition to Early Access, subscribers to our true crime channel also listen ad free. Crime Story is written and hosted by me. Our producers are Alexis Green and Sarah Claydon. Sound design by Graham MacDonald. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner. Our video producer is Evan Aagaard. Our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Executive producers are Cesil Fernandes and Chris Oke. Tanya Springer is CBC Podcasts’ senior manager, and Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts.

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Transcript: Crime Story, Episode 33

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