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Crime Story Episode 32: Glynn Washington

Host: Kathleen Goldhar

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The following episode contains difficult subject matter, including references to suicide. Please take care.

SOUNDCLIP

GLYNN WASHINGTON: They told their followers that this is the first time that people are going to be able to do this, to ascend like this since Jesus. And I don't think that most people believed that they were going to commit suicide. But you can't say that there wasn't some level of apocalyptic thought baked into the organization early on.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I'm Kathleen Goldhar. This is Crime Story.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: There is always curiosity around cults. Why do people join and why do they stay? It's something that I spent a lot of time thinking about when I produced the podcast, Escaping Nexium, about the dangerous cult and its leader, Keith Ranieri. But as somebody who's never actually joined a cult, I could only go so far. That wasn't the case for Glynn Washington, because Glynn grew up in a cult. And when he heard about the 39 members of a group called Heaven's Gate committing mass suicide, he knew that he could dive into the story like no one else. The result of his investigation is a podcast called Heaven's Gate. Heaven's Gate was founded by two people, a woman named Bonnie Nettles and a man named Marshall Applewhite in the early 1970s. And over time, they became known as Ti and Do, and they claimed to be prophets who could lead followers into the afterlife. But first, you had to give up your life here on Earth. Glynn says that he understood Ti and Do’s power, and he also understood why members made that final, awful decision. Glynn, welcome to Crime Story.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Thank you so much for having me.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So let's start with Heaven's Gate, and then we'll get into how your story sort of either dovetails or, you know, we can compare your background to this cult. But tell me about Heaven's Gate. Who were they?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Heaven's Gate, who they were were a group of seekers. Just to back up a little bit, I think that oftentimes, we have this idea of, you know, these culty crazy people who go off and do wild and wacky things. And I have found that more often than not, that people who are part of these organizations that are oftentimes preaching and talking about radical change, talking about self-worth, talking about a different way, they're oftentimes in so many ways the best of us, the people who really want to do better by themselves, who really want to do good for the world, who see the things that are broken and are trying to fix it. And the people who are in this group, and I got to meet them through what they left behind, through who they left behind. And I think every time, it's like these were bright, smart, caring, empathetic people who got taken for a ride. And really, I think I want the whole thing to leave a lesson for us, but what a warning and what a tragedy.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, it's interesting that you said that. Like I said, you know, with Escaping Nexium, you know, we got to talk to people who had left. And I think the hardest part for them often was some of the stuff that they learned, some of the teachings and some of the ways in which they walk through the world. They weren't all bad, and they came from a place of trying to be good. And it was very confusing and complicated for them to figure out what to take from that and what to leave behind because of the bad stuff that happened. So I hear what you're saying when… But tell me what it was that people were joining when they joined Heaven's Gate. What kind of messaging, what was Heaven's Gate saying they had the answers to?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Oh, Heaven's Gate claimed to have the answer for a lot of different things.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: As cults do. Yeah.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah, they had the answers for a lot of different things. And it was the belief system came from a lot of different places as well. There was some good Old Testament. There was a lot of New Testament. The Book of Revelation was very, very big in the Heaven's Gate sort of theology. But, you know, everything from crop circles to the Egyptian pyramids seemed to have found their way. It was a ravenous theology in that it could take a lot of different things, but really was trying to say that, you know, Ti and Do…

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Ti and Do were the leaders.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yes, they were the leaders. Basically that in the book of Revelations, it mentions two witnesses that would come forth and with power and the authority of the creator and lead people to a new understanding. And the two leaders and eventually the one, Applewhite, saw himself as a modern day apostle that were going to lead a flock to the next land. Only I don't think that the New Testament, the book of Revelations mentioned anything about outer space. That was an addition that Heaven's Gate put on the whole situation. That was their spin on it.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So Heaven's Gate was founded in the early 70s, correct?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yes.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And what was life like at the beginning with the two leaders, Ti and Do? Like what kind of life did these people live with them?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Well, to a large degree, it was an itinerant monastic life. Ti and Do didn't have any great resources or any grand cathedral anywhere. They would ask their potential followers to give up everything they have and to go and follow them. And that's a hard sell on Ti and Do themselves. They started off leaving their own families, leaving children behind, and once they saw each other, then they wandered. They were convinced that they were linked to each other cosmically and spiritually, and they abandoned everything else they had to search for what this link and this energy was about until they finally got a follower. And this was a big deal, getting that first follower. Now, they didn't… they're saying to the followers, they’re telling people, look, this, this life is temporary. This is going to be hard now, but you're looking for a greater reward in this next life. Again, this is a hard sell that you're going to work and maybe live in tents or in campers doing God knows what with no immediate reward. I think it's one of those things where I almost… I hate to say this term, but you had to be there. I think the magnetism is not so much in the message, but the magnetism was with the people who were saying this message. And Ti and Do, the founders of this group, had a real magnetism, and they were able to get people to do some things that you would think that they would not.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So obviously, the last thing was the mass suicide, but were there other things that they got them to do that, you know, were something that their charisma was able to do?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. First of all, giving up everything that you have, going off and joining a group, but then, you know, you discover that, you know, some of them have in fact castrated themselves. You know, they would emulate Ti and Do's pattern of speech, their clothing, their message. They saw Ti and Do as an earthly manifestation of a cosmic being, and they were trying to emulate that cosmic being. And like when you go so far as to potentially castrate yourself, you have a…

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That's a strong pull.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah, that's a pull. You're on a different… it's not casual. The relationship…

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You understand the situation.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: The relationship is not casual. They are really serious about what they're doing here.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So can we talk a little bit about Ti and Do? Tell me about Ti first. Let's go there. Who was she?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: So Bonnie Nettles, Ti, she was in fact the real spiritual powerhouse behind what became Heaven's Gate. And she was born in the late 20s to a big Baptist family. She was a nurse, and they lived in Texas, and she had four kids. I don't get anything from her early background that would lead you to think that she was someone who was about to start an international religious organization. And she met Applewhite in 1972. I believe they met at a hospital. Supposedly, Applewhite went to the hospital to visit a friend. Some people say, actually, that he went there for some sort of mental treatment, but they instantly, from all accounts, became enamoured with each other. Perhaps not sexually, but they saw themselves as being linked. She was an astrologer, a seer, and she foretold that their fates were intertwined. And that's kind of the beginning. That's the origin story of Heaven's Gate.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And your insight into a group like this is informed in a way that a lot of us aren't. And it's because of how you grew up and your parents’ shift to becoming part of a group like this. So can you tell us a bit about where, like when you started looking into Heaven's Gate, where you found yourself understanding the draw, or at least understanding… yeah.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: I mentioned seeing on the TV with a group of people, the initial footage of the tragedy of the mass suicide. And they, you know, they're all wearing tracksuits, they've got these shoes on, and more things were coming out and there's helicopters were circling the building. And everyone around me was like, wow, look at those crazies. Look at those. That's insane. That's this. That's the other. And I kept thinking, I could see that. If a couple extra left turns had been made, I could see the organization I grew up in being in a mass suicide and some other matching somewhere. And I grew up in a group that was called the Worldwide Church of God, and it was led by a former adman by the name of Herbert W. Armstrong, who started in the 30s talking about, the church was then called the Radio Church of God, and he used a lot of the same scriptures and things pulled from the Bible to say, this is the end time, that in fact, that I have a special key to unlocking the Book of Revelations in very much the same way that Ti and Do did for the Heaven's Gate organization. And that, you know, I grew up in a group where people thought that the end time was coming any moment. Some people, in fact, took to wearing their boots to bed so that they would be ready in a moment's notice in case Jesus showed up.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Wow.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. And when you're in that kind of an organization and it's not like the end time is going to come some day, that your reward will be in some eventual Heaven. Now, you're talking about next week. You're talking about right now. The immediacy of this could happen any moment creates an intensity amongst the community that is hard to even understand or talk about if you're outside of it, that we are doing this stuff right now because we have a secret. We were chosen, special. I grew up basically thinking that I was Harry Potter and everyone else was a muggle.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Right.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: And I can see, you know, very much the same thing here where you saw people basically cutting off their families, saying that Ti and Do were their new mothers and fathers. All of these things that they were doing here that seemed so wacky and so weird are things that I saw growing up. You know, we were cut off from our families and things of that nature.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: To me, you know, there is a terrifying nature to the end of the world. But to you, growing up in that, was there an excitement to that then? It wasn't a terrifying thought?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Oh, there's an excitement and a terrifying thought. The terrifying thing is that even amongst the group, some of you might not make it. That means that… And just like with Heaven's Gate, not everyone's going to get to go. So you're competing now. You've been chosen. You're part of the group, but you might not be… you might be left behind unless you don't get in line with the leader’s admonitions. That creates within a group, with any type of group, this competition. I'm going to out essentially Heaven's Gate, the other Heaven's Gators to make sure that I'm first in line for this eventual reward. You're going to make sure that once the big turn comes, whether it's getting on a spaceship or meeting Jesus, that you're going to be in that line to ready to go.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What did Heaven's Gate believe the end of the world would look like?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: They didn't believe this all the time, but they came to believe that the world was going to end, and that they were going to have one last chance to evacuate this earth. And that was going to come with the approach of the Hale-Bopp comet. And for reasons I never quite understood, they understood that there was a spacecraft that was trailing that comet, and that they were going to rendezvous with that spacecraft. But that was not going to be a straight physical meeting, that they were going to leave their bodies behind, but their beings would be taken up to this craft. That's what they were preparing to do.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And is that why they had to commit suicide to join that? Did they have to be not of this earth to join?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. They were going to ascend and, you know, were trying to put the logic of words on what was a very illogical belief system. But they did. They believed that they were going to have a final exit, and that they would ascend to this spacecraft, and that after them, that the earth was going to be doomed. And they made that happen. And I will say this as well. We don't know everything, what happened with that group in the final few months, but it seems like Applewhite was sick. By this point, his partner, Nettles, had already passed away. He was depressed. And I mean, I guess I understand it. I guess in the most horrible way possible, a dying man took his followers with him. When I look at what happened, someone who was already probably nearing the end of their own life, someone who had lost their life partner then decided that the best way to go was to take their followers with them both.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So when Heaven's Gate began and it was Ti and Do together, there was an end of the world belief. But the suicide, the mass exodus wasn't part of that to begin with.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: I don't think that the suicide mass exodus became part of it until very near the end. Even the comet itself, that seemed to be a fairly late addition to their theology, which is not particularly, you know, these groups evolve and change depending on the whims of their leaders. And I think that a lot of that happened. I mean, they certainly believed that they were extraterrestrial. They thought that Jesus was an extraterrestrial. And also, I should say that as well. They thought that Jesus was an extraterrestrial who came to Earth, who was killed, and then whose body rose from the dead and then was taken to a spaceship. And they told their followers that this is the first time that people are going to be able to do this, to ascend like this since Jesus. And I don't think that most people believed that they were going to commit suicide. But you can't say that there wasn't some level of apocalyptic thought baked into the organization early on.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Were there survivors of the mass suicide?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah, there sure were. People who, for whatever reason, weren't there, didn't take the thing, hid in the restroom. And some that were featured on the show seemed to regret not being there and have gone on to maintain the beliefs of the organization, to run websites about the organization, espousing the organization. And a lot of people were in and out of the group that eventually did kill themselves, you know, people who had left fairly recently and came back wondering if they'd missed their shot, wondering if they’d missed their chance to go and get on the spaceship.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So you spoke to those people, and it really was fascinating that they all this time later still sort of feel connected. Do you understand that? Do you know where they were coming from, what that was about?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Do I understand it? I understand the seriousness of it. You know, I am from middle America. I'm from Michigan and where there are… it's a huge evangelical community. And I know a few years ago, to kind of espouse their belief system, people started leaving sets of clothes and things on the front lawns to kind of recreate what it's going to look like for when the rapture comes, that people are going to be whisked away in a Christian rapture, and they're going to just leave their clothes behind on the wherever they happen to be, and that you better get ready right now. And there are all sorts of movies and documentaries and books, in fact, a huge series called Left Behind, about what it was going to be like when that happens, what it’s going to be like to be left behind. These are books that sold millions of copies. There are movies that had millions of viewers. And so in a way, the remnant of the Heaven's Gate community, a lot of them feel like a real life left behind situation happened to them, that their leaders have been essentially, let's just say, use the term raptured away, and that because they didn't stay next to their leaders the way they thought they should, that they missed their shot, and that they feel culpable and sad that their belief wasn't strong enough to let them get on the spaceship before it took off.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Wow. You also talked to Ti’s daughter in this podcast, and it's really quite hard to listen to her. I mean, talk about being left behind. She also feels like her mother left her behind.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. Yeah. And her mother did leave her behind.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Her mother decided that this… that she had something else to do. And she loved her mother. That this was not a casual thing to have your mother decide, I'm going to go off with some strange man because the universe is calling me to do so, and I'll see you when I see you. That left scars. It was painful to talk about. And you still see after that abandonment, the love that she obviously had. We are unknowable creatures. That's all I can say about that.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The other person that I felt so sad for was there is a mother of one of the guys that did die who has memories and videos of the one time that her son, I think his name was Steve, right, who came home and had a few couple of days with his parents.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: There was Steve. There was another woman. These people were loved who went off and did this unfathomable thing. They were loved. And that loss is when you talk to the parents, it is right there at the kitchen table. And these are people who live in regular communities, who, you know, maybe go to church on Sunday, maybe don't, who have regular jobs, who clean garages and, you know, and barbecue on Saturdays. These are people who are regular folk that had their entire lives torn apart. And they talk about their children and you see that same thing. They were seekers. They were dreamers. They were people who wanted better, who wanted racial harmony and wanted environmental justice and wanted to give. And you see that the organization preyed on the best of us and the families left behind. It was just universally the sweetest people you could possibly meet were the mothers and fathers of some of the young people who went off with Heaven's Gate.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Is that what sticks with you mostly when you sort of think back to the work you did on this?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: It is. It is. It's sitting at those tables and the generosity of having a stranger come into your house and pick at your worst scab, at the thing that hurts you the most. And you do this because you don't want this to happen to someone else's child. You want to tell your story if it gives anyone even a glimpse of a direction of being able to save their children because you've already lost yours.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And they tried. I mean, one of the things that I found interesting was that they were sort of educated on how to speak to their kids because they wanted them to leave. They had a feeling that they were in a cult, but they were careful. I mean, they had gotten some advice, right, from like cult experts and people who were trying to, you know, who wanted them to leave. And so can you tell us a little bit about that, like just how hard it was for them to sit back seeing their child be controlled this way, wanting to… As a parent too, I can understand the feeling that you just want to like rip them away and throw them in a trunk somewhere and wait it out. But like, yeah, that must have been so hard for the parents.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. There was a big, you know, schism, in fact, about doing just that. Near the end, Applewhite was basically saying, don't come try to kidnap your kids away. And you had experts trying to talk to the parents. And how do you not scare these people away? You don't want to come after and say, oh, you're in a cult. You're in this, you're in that. You're trying to follow, what are the terms that I can use that can maybe get them home for a visit, that can maybe let them see their little sister again? You're trying your best to not disparage the group that they're in, but show them a little bit about what's on the other side waiting for them if they could put this down for a while. And it's almost like you… Like you feel like you have to have been trained in hostage negotiation, because in a lot of ways, that's exactly what this was. And you don't necessarily understand what your kid is even up to, what led them to join this weird guy in the middle of the woods somewhere. It is an ultimate nightmare on behalf of the families and these mothers and fathers.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: For sure, because obviously, the worst case scenario came true. What about you? Tell me how you exited the group.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. In my, you know, my late teens, I was a true believer. Like I said…

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You were a true believer.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: I was a true believer. And I thought, you know, I thought it had some issues, but I thought that we were doing the right thing and had… the overall framework was correct. And then, you know, like a lot of teenagers do in their late teens, they start looking around, start reading some things, start questioning some things. And to his credit, my pastor, I was asking him, where did this Bible thing come from? And he gave me a book and it was called Who Wrote the Bible? And I read it. I read it again, and I was pretty much done. And when I say pretty much done, this is the group I had grown up in. This is the group that my parents and my siblings were in. And it was a group that I was just conditioned essentially from birth to believe had some key to the universe. And so walking away from it, even though I knew that's what I had to do, to some degree, I expected, you know, fire to rain down from the sky and the earth to shake when I didn't go along with it. In fact, in fact, I tried to make it easier on myself and eventually actually moved to Japan. Yeah, I moved away. I thought that I get on the other side of the globe, and it’ll tell you what happened, because this is not uncommon, I found out, with organizations of this type. I went to an apartment in a town that I had never been to before. I was going to start a school that was brand new.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: In Japan.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: In Japan. If someone asked me my address, I didn't know it. I didn't know how to… I didn't know my phone number. I didn't know how to use a phone in Japan at the time. And I'm walking into my new apartment for the first time in a town I'd never heard of, never been to before, and the phone is ringing and I thought, oh, this will be funny. I'll answer this phone and give somebody a good little chuckle with this weird foreign voice. I pick it up and they said, is this Glynn Washington? Yeah. Well, this is so and so from the church, and we heard you’re in Japan right now. I just wanted to know if you want someone to come down and get your foot to come to meetings. And I had to give them one of those, [makes sound] make some static and hang up the phone. They knew where I was before my mama did. They knew where I was before I knew where I was.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Wow.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: And this is way before AI and modern tracking and the internet and all that kind of stuff. They have their finger on their followers in a really intimate way. Imagine an organization like that and give them modern powers. Give them access to your phone. Give them access to your internet, your house, your computer. Their spouse is in the organization along with the children, and you start to understand the types of control that these organizations can have over someone.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What was inside you that gave you the strength to, one, pretend there was static on the line and hang up and then stick through it? Because it wouldn't have been over then. I mean, I'm assuming that the emotional ties would have been pretty hard too.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah, the emotional ties, and very similar here, that if you leave, there’s a type of excommunication, that you don't get to talk to the people that you grew up with anymore, that the people who are dear to you, who have become your new family, you are cut off from them. And that’s even if those, you know, like even if that's your mother or your father, to some extent. That's really, really, really tough. But what, you know, you get to the point was I know I did, well, I can't do this anymore.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You didn’t believe anymore.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: I didn't believe. And then, again, I was so lucky to go to Japan because I didn't speak Japanese when I first got there. And so trying to… as I learned the language, you're like a child again. I'm like a preschooler and a kindergartener of my level of my language. And then I have to try and tell someone what I believe in my basic Japanese, and I hear the words coming out of my mouth in a very different way. Like what did I just say? Do I believe that? That's crazy.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That’s fascinating.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. I got a different lens. I'll be forever grateful. And even after I stopped like necessarily believing in the church, it's like you can take the boy out of the cult, but it's really, really hard to take the cult out of the boy. It took me years. Years. In fact, a lot of my friends will say I have never accomplished completely eradicating a lot of that cult stuff from, you know, who I am. And now, to this point. Not to say that I would necessarily want to, because as you mentioned earlier, you know, from Nexium, like some of the things, they're either in too deep to who I am or I find them to be beneficial even though they came, they're the fruit of the poisonous tree. And I'm sure, I know that's what a lot of people from Heaven's Gate feel about it. I know like for myself, you know, we were taught that we were special, that we alone were chosen to have this special knowledge by the Lord of the universe. I grew up thinking that I was chosen and select. No. I know that's absurd now, but sometimes, I still feel special. That’s the truth.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Well, I don't want to say you're not, but I hear you.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: I’m a special boy. I'm specially chosen.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What about your family? Are you reconnected? Like how did it all sort of play out with your parents and your siblings?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Oh, it's still… the ramifications of this are still playing out. What happened, in the late 80s, the founder of our organization passed away. And since that happened, the organization tore itself asunder. There are literally over 800 different splinter groups from the organization I grew up in.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Wow.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: And both of my parents are out of the organization, but they’ve joined new ones. It's been such a burden for our family even now. Like when I say now, I mean of this weekend, the arguments over what people think their God wants them to do, what their God is saying to them. And it's really hard. It's really hard to maintain relationships with people that you love when this is so central to everything. But we all do things that might not be, at its face, logical. All belief systems, all religions are inherently on their face, they are anti logical. They are anti-scientific. The idea on its face that there is a UFO behind the Hale-Bopp comet is not any scientifically less or more valid than, you know, turning water into blood. But one is more generally acceptable, and one is an outlier. And so I say that to say we're used to dealing with conversations, with beliefs that hold ideas that are outside the idea of rational scientific discourse. And if you can get with me that far, if you can hang with me that far, it's not too much greater a leap to think that somebody who is seeking a new world, they could make a step into an organization that is as extreme as this without being a twisted person.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: For sure. It's very… I agree and understand with what you're saying.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Lastly, you know, you went into this podcast with an inherent understanding, like you said, of why people would join a group like this, that you didn't start with the idea that they were crazy or stupid. You understood. You had an inherent sense of that. Was there anything that surprised you or impacted you in a way that you didn't expect as you were putting this together?

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. There's video of the people who went on to commit suicide right before they did it, I think the last few days, and you see smiles on their faces. You see them kind of joking around with each other. They look normal, like a bunch of people who know each other really, really well, who have found their community. And if you were to look at it and not know what happens next, you would say, boy, oh, I wish I had a bunch of friends like that. That was chilling and hard to see, and I think it was surprising to me. I don't know that, like you said, I wasn't expecting monsters. I wasn't expecting that at all, but the normalcy that I saw with the people, I don't think I was expecting that either.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Even just hearing the voices, which I did on the podcast, it is a little… It's very disconcerting.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah. Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah. Well, Glynn, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to speak to me, and thanks for your work.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Thank you so much for listening to it. I think if you haven't heard the series, check it out. There is also an HBO series that was made that used the podcast as a springboard called Heaven’s Gate as well.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Okay. Good to know.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Awesome. Well, congrats on that too, and thank you.

GLYNN WASHINGTON: Thank you so much.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. We drop a new episode every Monday. You can get our next episode a week early on CBC Podcasts’ YouTube channel or by subscribing to the CBC Podcasts’ true crime channel on Apple Podcasts. In addition to Early Access, subscribers to our true crime channel also listen ad free. Crime Story is written and hosted by me. Our producers are Alexis Green and Sarah Claydon. Sound design by Graham MacDonald. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner. Our video producer is Evan Aagaard. Our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Executive producers are Cesil Fernandes and Chris Oke. Tanya Springer is CBC Podcasts’ senior manager, and Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts.

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Transcript: Crime Story, Episode 32

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