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Crime Story Episode 31: Connie Walker

Host: Kathleen Goldhar

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The following episode contains difficult subject matter. Please take care while listening.

SOUNDCLIP

CONNIE WALKER: I'm really invested in the mystery and I'm really invested in the investigation, and I want to feel like we're doing something active, especially like if there's some way we can help family members who are really struggling and who need that support. But it is really ultimately about trying to better understand the lives that indigenous people live and that there's, you know, communities like Sweetwater, you know, on the Navajo Nation where an elder can go missing in the middle of the night, I think is just so heartbreaking, and that people don't know that that's happening. People don't understand the circumstances that they have to live in.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I'm Kathleen Goldhar. This is Crime Story.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Connie Walker is a Pulitzer Prize winner, a Peabody winner, a trailblazing journalist and, best of all, a friend. She's currently on the cover of The Walrus, and most exciting, she's one of this year's Time Magazine's 100 people of the year. Yet somehow, she has time for us. So Connie, thank you for joining us on Crime Story.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So in your new podcast, Stolen: Trouble in Sweetwater, you explore a crisis of policing in an indigenous community. And you investigate the disappearances of two women on the Navajo Nation, a place where people tell you that they can get away with murder. And to your surprise and then to the listener’s surprise, you actually discover that there's a link between these two cases, something that you didn't know going into for sure. And it poses a lot of troubling questions beyond the questions that you went in with. So let's start with the one that you start with, and then how that leads you to the next one.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. Well, Ella Mae Begay is a Jeanette Elder who was born and raised on the Navajo Nation. She was somebody who, you know, her family told us, like basically never left home. Like she maybe took one trip to St. Louis when she was at an Indian boarding school as a child. But her son lived in Denver, and she'd never been to Denver to like even visit. You know, she was definitely a homebody. She was known to be or is known to be like a master rug weaver. Like so she has this tradition of rug weaving in her family. And when I heard about Ella Mae or when I… actually, when I saw her photo, I feel like that was the thing that really initially grabbed me, because I felt like, you know, she looked like so many people in my own family. And the fact that she was missing and the circumstances around her disappearance really were kind of shocking to me, you know, that she lived alone at home in her community, and that she just disappeared and vanished one night, and that she's never been seen again. And when I heard the story of what happened that night, you know, I also was just kind of… it just raised so many questions for me about like obviously, like what happened to Ella Mae and where is she and why can't her family find her? But all of the troubling things about what it meant to live as an elder in this community. And the story that we initially heard was that, you know, her daughter was home alone, and they lived right next door to one another, and someone broke into her house.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The daughter's house.

CONNIE WALKER: The daughter's house. And she was hiding in her room while someone was rummaging through her cupboards, taking things to drink. And then she was terrified, and then she heard this person who kicked in her door leave. And she saw him like walking away, but also in the direction of her mom's house. But I don't think she necessarily knew that that's where he was going. And she called the police to report this intruder, and I just could imagine that, right? Like if you, you know, you have that fear, and then you feel like, oh, it must be relief when you can finally dial 911 and call for help. And the police answered. The dispatch answered the call, but the police never responded. They didn't come in and help. And then it was an hour later or something like that, she was still waiting for them. And she noticed that her mom's truck started up, and she thought that was so odd because her mom, why would her mom be leaving home in the middle of the night? And she tried calling her and texting her and didn't get any response. And then she saw the truck leave and she called police again. And this time, they finally arrived, but it was too late.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And it's important to sort of place us in the Navajo Nation as well. So can you tell us sort of where it is? And it's quite rural where they're living, right?

CONNIE WALKER: For sure.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So they're not… they can't just run to a neighbour's as well. So just give us a sense of where the homes are and what it kind of looks like.

CONNIE WALKER: Well, the Navajo Nation is huge. Like it's the biggest reservation in the United States. And I think it's like, I don't know, I think I said this a couple of times in the podcast, but it's like 27,000 square miles. I don't really know actually what that is, but it's giant.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You didn't go from one end to the other, basically.

CONNIE WALKER: Well, we basically… like we did the travel around it, but it took hours. Like it would take, you know, a day to travel through, and also just the landscape. You know, it's this desert landscape with mountains, mountainous areas, but then also just like complete desert and red rock everywhere. It's so beautiful. Like it is gorgeous, like beautiful. But when we went to Ella Mae’s house, we were so surprised because we got lost. There are no road markers anywhere. There's actually… like you get to one point where you're like on a paved road, and then it just ends. And then from then on, you're basically on a road. And I'm using air quotes, but it's like you can't go like more than like 15, 20 kilometres an hour on these roads. Like it's so rough. It's a very rough road. It's so remote. Like there's not a store around. There's no streetlights. There are no house numbers or street names. And so, you know, I think that's part of the issue. Like immediately, you're like, oh, things are different here for sure. You know, even when you call the police and they do show up, like it can take, you know, they're only 45 minutes away to the nearest town of Shiprock where the police are, but it can take a lot longer for them to arrive just because it's so hard to find people and they don't have, you know, addresses in the way that we do, but also the road conditions. Like you actually can't go very fast.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So the police do finally show up. Ella Mae’s missing. What do the police initially think happened? Where does the investigation start?

CONNIE WALKER: Well, it didn't start then. I think that there was… You know, so much of this is like us piecing things together, obviously, after the fact and hearing from different family members who entered, you know, the story at different points. But essentially, I think that initially, police didn't really understand that Ella Mae was missing. They just noticed that her truck was gone and she was gone. But, you know, they didn't necessarily think that she was missing right away. It wasn't until the next day when her family was still trying to get Ahold of her and, you know, piecing things together themselves that they realized, oh, something's really wrong here. And that's when, you know, I think the search for Ella Mae began. And what was so remarkable about Ella Mae is that almost as soon as we went out to this community and started meeting people and talking to people, you realized very, very quickly that there's, you know, this is one case, but there's actually a crisis of missing people in this community. Like there are so many people who have gone missing or who, you know, who have been killed. And that everyone you talked to talks about the police response or the police, the lack of a police response, essentially, that, you know, police never helped look, never helped search for my loved one. They don't call me back. I don't know what's happening with their investigation. And immediately, we kind of realized Ella Mae’s case was different. You know, that she actually, you know, despite the fact that it took them a while to show up initially and they didn't immediately understand she was missing, once they did, like the police response was bigger than any other missing persons case in the Navajo Nation and also in this Shiprock district, which is what we focussed on.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Why? Do you understand why?

CONNIE WALKER: I think that, I mean, I think partly, it's because of the fact of who she was, you know, this elder in her community. But also, I think her family, once they realized and mobilized, became really, really vocal advocates for her. And, you know, it's kind of extraordinary. Like I think… like that's not unfamiliar. If you've listened to my podcast, like you know how important it is that the family’s advocacy is really, really makes or break whether or not they get attention, whether or not they get resources. But Ella Mae’s family, like her niece, Seraphine, really like kind of just took up this megaphone for her aunt and did all of these extraordinary things, including, I think, something that was maybe unusual in this community at the time, is like she was just vocal and she was critical of police and critical of Navajo Nation leadership. And she didn't… she wasn't afraid of doing that. And I think that, you know, she really kind of galvanized a lot of attention and support around her aunt. And so it kind of, you know, it's resulted in Ella Mae being one of the, I think, most high profile cases of missing and murdered indigenous women in the United States, which is remarkable given, you know, where she came from. And, you know, Ella Mae lived in her home without running water or electricity. She had just gotten solar panels the year before. And so she just had electricity, you know, in the few months before she went missing. But, you know, she lived this very, very quiet life that a lot of people don't understand. Many people in the Navajo Nation are still living like that.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And it was her niece, Seraphine. She even walked all the way to DC. I mean, the woman has stamina and real strength of character.

CONNIE WALKER: It was really, honestly, that was kind of when we first were introduced to Seraphine. When she was on this walk, that was when we first talked to her. And it was like an exhausting, exhausting walk. But she felt like I have to be doing something. I can't… like we've searched everywhere. We're like waiting for some like development in this investigation. And she was just so frustrated and really wanted to channel that. What she said actually was that, you know, not long after Ella Mae went missing, Gabby Petito went missing in the US. I don't know if you remember her case, but like she said it felt like the whole country, you know, rallied around and, you know, tried to find Gabby Petito. And she was like, oh, this is possible. This should happen for my aunt. Like how do I mobilize this kind of support for my auntie Ella Mae? And that's why she started walking. She was like, if people hear about her, they'll care too. And that's why she decided to. Like I think her initial walks were like to the capital of the Navajo Nation and in and around Sweetwater, where her aunt lived. But eventually, she was like, that's not enough. And she walked from Sweetwater, Arizona, all the way to Washington, DC. And she met with Secretary Haaland, you know, the first Native American cabinet member of the United States and somebody who's been an advocate for this crisis of violence in indigenous communities. And I think that, you know, without that kind of family advocacy, like I feel like that was such a huge part of having Ella Mae’s story get the attention that it did. But when we went there, then what became clear was that like there were so many other families that weren't getting that attention, that never got, you know, a fraction of the attention or resources that Ella Mae got. And that was then, you know, just raised so many other questions for us around policing and around the rates of violence in this really kind of small remote community.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And so that's what brings you to the second case that you guys start to look into. And her name is Cristina Carrillo. Tell me about her.

CONNIE WALKER: Well, what happened was I feel like Ella Mae’s case really led us to the police first, you know, because we had heard so much criticism of the Navajo police. And they're actually kind of, you know, the Navajo police is one of the largest and one of the longest running tribal police forces in North America. And I know that there's recently, actually, I think it was the tribal police in Ontario, travelled to the Navajo Nation to like learn from them and, you know, to try to improve their community policing, their own community policing using the Navajo Nation as an example. So I think that like, you know, they have kind of a proud reputation in some respects. But what we were hearing from people in the community was just like so, like, you know, so much criticism of the police. And it really, you know, made me wonder like what is it like to police here? Like why… Like what's going on? Why, you know, why do you call them and they don't show up, you know? Like what is happening? And so we did a ride along with the Navajo police officer, and that was like enlightening and eye opening and really just kind of made me realize this is bigger than one missing person's case. You know, it's obviously, we were committed to wanting to try to find out what happened to Ella Mae, but it made… it put it in context almost immediately that, okay, there's so much else here, because every call, every officer goes on is like a window into another world and another issue and something else that's happening in this community that is as urgent and as critical to know and understand as the missing persons crisis. And that and spending time with the police and getting permission to kind of embed with them and spend a lot of time with officers at the station and in dispatch was really enlightening. And that's what led us to Cristina's case, because at one point when we're hanging out at the police station, there was an officer, Sergeant foster. And I was just asking him about missing people in the Shiprock district, because we focussed on this one district on the Navajo Nation because it's so huge, and we felt like that was the most manageable. And he mentioned that there were two important cases in the Shiprock district. One was Ella Mae’s, and another one was another indigenous woman named Ranelle Rose Bennett, who went missing actually the same day as Ella Mae, and like just about an hour apart. Like it's kind of wild, but there's like a kind of shelf of binders of all of the missing people in the Shiprock district. And it made me wonder, like what makes one case more important than another here? Like why are police prioritizing certain cases over others? And that's what really led us to Cristina's case. If you, you know, wanted to put them side to side, like Cristina Carrillo’s, we didn't find a single news article about Cristina Carrillo. There was very little information available until we started talking to people about her disappearance. There was one Facebook post that we saw from her sister that was pleading for help, that she and her family had heard really disturbing news about Cristina and were going to report her missing. And very quickly, we realized that there was very little police involvement like in the investigation into her disappearance, and that her case was just being treated completely differently than Ella Mae’s. And so it made us want to ask those questions about why. And that's how we started looking into Cristina's disappearance.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Why do you think and what did you learn about why maybe her case… like you mentioned that Ella Mae, maybe she was older than the general people who tend to go missing and murdered or at least missing. They tend to be younger people. But what else? Why do you think that she got no attention? I mean, it really is stark, the difference.

CONNIE WALKER: Well, I think that, I mean, Ella Mae was this kind of cherished elder. And I think that everybody, you know, it can be really easy to empathize with that. You're like, oh, I have a grandmother. I have a cook. I have like people in my family and community, and like the terror that you feel that something like that could happen to them. And I think with Christina, like, you know, like it's not at all that there aren’t things about her that you obviously… that you can empathize with as well. But I think that it really… like I think it speaks to, you know, what kinds of cases get attention. Like I think it really does have to do with like who people can identify with and who people can empathize with. And I think it has a lot to do with like some of the kind of victim blaming that goes, goes along with missing people sometimes. And so Christina, you know, she lived a really hard life. You know, from the time she was a kid, she had a lot of violence in her life, a lot of abuse. And as an adult, she struggled with addictions, and she used drugs. She sometimes sold drugs, and she was like known to police. When her sister reported her missing, the officer like was like, oh, Cheesy? Like he knew her nickname. He’d had multiple interactions with her like in his job. And so I feel like, you know, what it reminded me of and what we talk about in the podcast was what happened in Vancouver on the Downtown Eastside and how so many women went missing because police, because the public, because nobody took it seriously that so many women who struggled in addiction and in poverty, who were like most of them indigenous or many of them indigenous…

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You could brush it away because of what, quote unquote, lifestyle, right?

CONNIE WALKER: Exactly.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That they are… they could have just wandered away, that they're just sort of unreliable.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. And that's what her sister was told initially when she reported her missing. Like we'll just have to hope she shows up, like, you know? And I think what also didn't help Christina's case in terms of the investigation was the fact that like nobody… she wasn't reported missing until months after she was last seen. You know, her sister, what happened actually was that Christina's uncle was at the casino, and somebody came up to him and said, why aren't you looking for Christina? Like why aren’t you looking for Cheesy? Like we're hearing terrible things. Something really bad happened to her. And that was the first time, you know, some people in her family understood that something was wrong. And her sister Denise doesn't live right there in the community. She lives a couple of hours away. She has young kids. Like, you know, she has a lot going on. And so when she finally heard that, like she went to report her missing. But when we started looking into Christina's case, no one knew when she was last seen, you know, or where she was last seen.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Even the police.

CONNIE WALKER: No, the police didn't know any of that. You know, I mean, you know, they thought maybe that she had been, she lived in this area of Shiprock called Farm Road, that she had been seen on Farm Road. But we saw missing persons posters that placed her being last seen like at a casino in June, and she was reported missing in September. We were able to kind of pinpoint a little bit more about like when she actually was last seen, but there was still like just, you know, it's so hard to kind of get any concrete answers or information when it's that long. Like everyone talks about the first 24 hours or 48 hours being the most important, and that was just gone.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What did you in your investigation, sort of as best you can, kind of figure out what happened to her or her last hours or whatever? Like where was she? What happened?

CONNIE WALKER: Well, I mean, very early on, we heard about, you know, one of the last nights that she was seen, the last night that we think she was seen, she lived with a man named Melvin Lee in Shiprock, and they were like roommates more than… not related, not in a relationship. And people who were there at that house that evening said that, you know, Christina got upset about something, was in an argument, and we've heard different variations of this with either Melvin or her mother, who also stayed there, and that she walked off. And that was the last time she was seen. And I think that, you know, it was so much about absolutely trying to piece together when was she last seen and what happened to her? And is there any truth to these terrible, terrible rumours, really violent rumours that her family was hearing about her? But it was also about trying to like, as you said before, like understand what led to that point, you know, really try, because I feel like that's the black and white question, right? Is like what happened to Ella Mae? What happened to Christina? And then as you get deeper into like the circumstances of when they were last seen and what happened that night and what is maybe the specific violent incident that led to their death or disappearance, you also get all of this other information about their lives and about what was happening in the weeks leading up, what was happening in the months and the years. And I think that that is honestly like that kind of grey area and what it says not just about someone's… like someone's death or disappearance, but what it says about someone's life and what it says about the lives of people who live in this community and the rates of violence there is really kind of the most shocking and revelatory things, I think, that we were able to uncover.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And I think what it does is, like you were saying that every, Ella Mae, you know, you could sort of see your grandmother in her. And you don't have to be indigenous to see an elderly lady and be like, oh, that shouldn't have happened. But what the work does is it humanizes even Christina. So like she becomes an actual three dimensional human that you're like, oh, there are similarities. We're all human. This young girl came up from such difficult times. And, you know, you do get into her talking to people about wanting to change her life and how, you know, that scene where, I think it was Melvin or somebody was telling you about just how hard it was to exist, like the day to day. Like you get up at different times and people are coming in and out and there's drugs. And you can just… the way he presented it, you did feel this exhaustion.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And you thought, oh, that's what she wanted to get out of. And that gave you a really… it connected you to her, and I think that's what your work does. And you can imagine how hard it would be in those circumstances, and I think it's really important. But it's what you were talking about, though, that, you know, what they were doing in their years that then connect these two women. And I remember I texted my producers and I was like, I'm getting Romeo and Juliet vibes from this.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So can you tell us a little bit about how what you thought were two very disparate stories actually have like this really violent connection?

CONNIE WALKER: It was really random. And I think that like, you know, part of it is we're not from there, you know? Like we're not… I'm not and I’d never been to the Navajo Nation before this. Like I'm Cree from Saskatchewan, and I've lived in Ontario for many years. But like, you know, so when we went there and people were telling us about, you know, that you can get away with murder and that we, you know, we went on a search somewhere, and this guy just drives by in his truck and he was like, oh, there was a body there, and there was a body there, and there was this happened over here. And you just kind of feel like, you're like is this real? Like is this actually true?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: And I think that because we were not from this community, and I've seen like so many other examples of like people coming to communities where they're not from and not having, you know, taking care, the kind of harm that can come from that kind of storytelling if you're, you know, further reinforcing stereotypes about communities. And so we were really, really, really wary of doing that. But then when we started like actually getting deeper and making these connections, you know, it was really shocking because we chose these two women's cases just, you know, kind of almost randomly. And we did not know that there was a connection between them initially, even when we kind of first got the inkling, because Ella Mae lived in Sweetwater her whole life. And 20 years before she went missing, her husband was killed. And it was, again, kind of a seemingly random encounter. They live near kind of at the base of the Carrizo Mountains, near the Four Corners area in the United States. And he was going up the mountain, or they had farm, but he was going to get water as well, because they didn't have running water.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: In his truck.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah, he was in his truck and he was going. And there was just a chance encounter with another family that had spent the day up on the mountain, and they were coming down. And because it was this narrow mountain pass, I guess they encountered each other. And there was a near collision, but it didn't happen. But I guess, you know, tensions and everything escalated, so that there was an argument. And then the other people in the other truck started chasing him, and he tried to get away from them in his vehicle, and he couldn't. And eventually, he tried to take refuge at his sister's house, but the other people were also living in Sweetwater. Melton Wagon Jr. is his name. And his sister Teresa was there, and also her boyfriend, Joe Holladay. And so they beat Benjamin Begaye and killed him. And, you know, that happened, as I said, like 20 years before Ella Mae went missing. And as we started looking into Ella Mae’s disappearance, we heard about her husband Benjamin's death. And then we also heard about another deadly retaliation that then happened years later. You know, their grandchildren, essentially. Like, you know, one of their grandkids.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: One of Ella Mae’s grandkids.

CONNIE WALKER: Ella Mae’s grandkids retaliated against the Wagons and beat their grandfather, and he died. That level of violence across generations was just so shocking. And what we discover in the podcast is that one of those young men was Christina Carrillo’s son.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And his name was Evan.

CONNIE WALKER: Evan Begay.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Evan Begay. And so do we… do you… is there suspicion that Evan Begaye is associated with Ella Mae’s disappearance?

CONNIE WALKER: No. It's no. No, there's not. I mean, and actually, the Wagon, one of the young men that we talked to from the Wagon family said that when Ella Mae went missing, people immediately did look at him. He said the police actually came to talk to him because of this bad blood between these two families and the fact that they, you know, despite all of that, they remained neighbours in this tiny community of Sweetwater. But no, Ella Mae’s disappearance, someone has been arrested and is actually going on trial next month and was a stranger to the community, had only been in Sweetwater for a couple of weeks and was connected to Ella Mae kind of, again, kind of randomly. Like Ella Mae’s sister is dating his dad. So this Preston Toth, who's been charged with carjacking, causing serious bodily injury, and assault causing serious bodily injury in Ella Mae’s disappearance, just came to Sweetwater a couple of weeks before Ella Mae went missing.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And it was a robbery.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. I mean, I think police alleged that he… accused him of stealing her truck. And so much of it is still unclear, honestly, but, you know, in interviews with investigators, FBI and criminal investigators from the Navajo Nation, he admitted to leaving Ella Mae’s house that night in her truck with her and to assaulting her and to, he said he snapped and maybe hit her harder than he thought, and that, you know, she was bleeding and probably dead when he left her on the side of the road somewhere in Sweetwater. But later, when police took him back out to Sweetwater to try to, you know, help them find Ella Mae, they didn't find her. And they said, you know, in documents that we read, that they didn't believe that he was telling the truth about where he had actually left Ella Mae. So that trial is happening next month in Arizona. So I'm sure, you know, there's going to be more information coming about that. But Preston has pleaded not guilty.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But there hasn't been murder charges because they can't find her.

CONNIE WALKER: They… Yeah. This is the first time, I think, in Navajo Nation history, according to one of the criminal investigators that we talked to, that they have ever had this level of charges without a body. but Ella Mae has still not been found.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And what about Christina? Do we know… there are suspects in her murder. Do we have any idea of what happened to her?

CONNIE WALKER: Well, I mean, they don't even know that it's a murder. Like, you know, basically, also what we kind of unpack a lot of in the podcast is just kind of the levels of policing. So, you know, there are the patrol officers who initially respond to missing persons’ calls and if there's an immediate sign that there's been a major crime that has occurred. Like eventually, with Ella Mae, they realized I think very quickly on that they were investigating a homicide. Then it triggers like another set of Navajo police, the criminal investigators, to take over the case. And they on major crimes on the reservation, because the federal government essentially has responsibility for public safety on reservations, they work with the FBI on major crimes. And so that happened immediately with Ella Mae, but that's never happened for Christina. Like, you know, her case was with this patrol officer that we spend a lot of time with as well who knew her and cared about her and, you know, did investigate, but who told us, you know, in the podcast that there were threats made to him, and that he was worried and kind of afraid to investigate Cristina's case. And because there was no evidence of a major crime, despite the fact that, you know, a skull was found not far from where she was missing, her case was never escalated to a criminal… Well, we asked criminal investigators, and at one point, they said, oh yeah, we are looking into it. And then the next time we asked the same person, he didn't know who she was or what her case was. And then we asked again a third time and they said, we can't comment on it.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It all kind of seems to be going to the sort of lack of respect that they have. And I know you mentioned in the podcast that people say… like it's commonly said that you can get away with murder on the Navajo Nation. So can you give me a bit more of an understanding of what is going on there? Like why are things kind of so piecemeal or haphazard or I don't know what word you want to use?

CONNIE WALKER: The answer is so complex, really. But I think that, you know, at least initially, what we saw was that a lot of the issues start, at least when it comes to crime and solving crime, with the lack of resources of Navajo police. So when we were out on the ride along, like we were patrolling an area I think they said the size of Connecticut. Like, you know, it was large. Like, you know, you could be… We drove for 45 minutes to respond to one call, but you could then be called somewhere like an hour and a half away and that's still in the same jurisdiction. I think there were three officers on duty that night, and it was call after call after call. We spent some time in the dispatch as well. And it didn't actually make it into the podcast, but like it was just this like, Shiprock police, how can I help you? Shiprock police, how can I help you? Shiprock police, how can I help you? There were so many calls that came in that, you know, you’re just like, how can you actually respond to this? And I feel like that is something that affects obviously like the urgent calls that are happening on that shift. But I think that what we also heard from people was that they were worried about retaliation within their communities, and they knew that police couldn't protect them. So they were, you know, doing things like taking matters into their own hands or not calling the police or not, like not coming forward if they knew or had information, because they're more worried about what their neighbour is going to do, because it's going to take police however many hours even if they do respond. But then the other part of it is that, you know, there's this really… like if it's a major crime like murder or arson or, you know, sexual assault, then it gets bumped up to criminal investigator and an FBI. But the declination rates for major crime, they’re so high. Like I think we read a report that said it was like 30%, essentially. But we know it's much higher than that, actually, because there are many different levels in which crimes can be declined to be prosecuted. Like so if eventually, if it's a major crime on the Navajo Nation, it'll be investigated by a criminal investigator and an FBI agent, and then they will go to a district attorney, a federal prosecutor and say, this is what I have. And they'll either say, we'll prosecute that or we won't. But often, they say they won't because they don't have enough evidence. But even before that, sometimes, FBI agents can decline to even investigate things. And if they don't, there is a tribal court and there is a tribal court system and things can go through there. But every crime, even if it's murder, is treated as a misdemeanour in tribal court. And the maximum sentence that you can impose in tribal court is one year.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Why?

CONNIE WALKER: That is part of, I think, the Major Crimes Act and the law, that they can't impose more in tribal court.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Tell us a little bit about the Major Crimes Act, because that is… it's really interesting. I mean, it sounds policy ish, but you actually get into it, and it is a really interesting way that things are divided.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It talks a lot about the history of indigenous people in the United States.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. I mean, I wish my producer Annie was here because she has… I feel like she could write a book now about the Major Crimes Act. Like she just did such incredible research in helping to understand that. But essentially, the law that dictates how crime is handled on the reservation goes back to the Major Crimes Act and this one single crime that happened in 1881, in I think what's now North Dakota or South Dakota, where a chief named Crow Dog killed another chief named Spotted Tail. And because it happened on the reservation, the tribe was handling it the way that they do. And I think that they had asked Crow Dog to pay some kind of restitution to Spotted Tails family. But when US authorities got word of it, they weren't happy with that, and they tried Crow Dog. For the first time, they kind of waded into crime and justice in Indian country. And they tried him for murder, and he was found guilty and ordered to be hanged. And that case went all the way to the Supreme Court, and the justices sided with Crow Dog and said, okay, the US authorities are overstepping their jurisdiction here, that, you know, they upheld the tribe's sovereignty to decide what happened. And then very quickly after that, Congress passed the Major Crimes Act, and it dictates basically the federal jurisdiction over major crimes on the reservation. And so it's why there are FBI agents assigned to the Navajo Nation. It's why all of those crimes happened in federal court. But then, of course, you know, I think they said there were 12 FBI agents assigned to the Navajo Nation, which is, again, you know, this huge community, and the rates of crime are staggering, and that they're often, you know, newer agents who aren’t from the community. And, you know, I think there's a lot of issues with having that oversight and not having, you know, the criminal investigators who are from the community, who have experience there, who live there, have more power and control over those investigations and those prosecutions. And I think that's something that's… So it's very complex. It's like, you know, these are very, very serious issues. It's like somebody's life and death and justice for families that are, you know, already dealing with so much. And this is just one system within this community, you know?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Within a country.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: But even like just… I just mean like, you know, we're so focussed on crime and justice, but everywhere, like every person we met, we were like, Ella Mae lives without running water and electricity. It's like how… Like where are the… Like there were power lines not far from her house, but they never came to her place. Christina, like, you know, I think struggled with so much. But, you know, there's the lack of kind of social supports for people. Like there's no any kind of addiction or rehab treatment centres on the reservation. Like there's all this exploitation that was happening concurrently while we were there investigating. People were getting kidnapped off the streets and taken to these rehab homes in Phoenix as part of this Medicare scams. They were, you know, getting money from the federal government to provide rehab for people with addictions and really not offering any medical support. And people, some people died in these places, in these places that just popped up in homes like in the outskirts of Phoenix.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Your next story.

CONNIE WALKER: Well, it was happening while we were there. And we were really just like… there was just so much it's so overwhelming.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It's overwhelming. But can we talk a little bit now about like you're in the United States, but you really were at the forefront here in Canada and at the CBC when you were here, bringing sort of the missing and murdered indigenous women, but also issues with indigenous people in Canada. Canadians, at least those engaged in the world, understand that this is happening here in Canada. We've heard a lot less about what's happening in the States. Maybe some people had the assumption that assimilation was different. Maybe the reserve system was different, I don't know. But from your experience, from your place, you're in two different countries. But where are the similarities? Where are the differences? Like can you kind of give me a bit of a bigger picture about what's happening with those communities here versus there?

CONNIE WALKER: I feel like it's very similar.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. I think we have this shared experience across like Canada and across the United States of colonization, of surviving, you know, attempted genocide. The impacts of that are, you know, thought to be things that happened in the 1800s or early 1900s. But I think that part of what our work is trying to do is show how that's continuing to impact communities. Like it's not something that happened, you know, 50, 60 years ago that people similarly here have figured out and isn't an issue anymore. It's like these are still underreported stories. You know, I've been able to do this work, and I feel grateful that I've been able to do this work, but it also feels like I'm not any different. I'm not extraordinary in any way. Like every community, every family has a story like this. You know, we've all been impacted by, whether you're in Canada or the United States, like by these shared experiences of really what was, like I said, you know, attempted genocide, forced assimilation. You know, impacts of Indian residential schools here in Canada, boarding schools in the United States have all contributed to these ongoing crises of violence against not just indigenous women and girls, but men and boys as well. And so I think that, you know, there are obviously differences. It's like incredibly diverse nations across both Canada and the US, but I think there are so many shared experiences. And I think that something that, you know, that we're trying to do with the podcast is really just help amplify voices and stories of these people in these communities, these extraordinary people who are pushing for change, are pushing for something different, like Seraphine, you know, and her advocacy for her aunt Denise Carrillo and her advocacy for her sister, like, you know, Bernadine Bell, who runs this like volunteer search and rescue group and is busy every weekend helping Navajo families. And she finds people like her or her dogs find people. It's like it's kind of amazing just what's happening on the ground. And I think what we're just trying to do is shine like this, the light that we have, you know, so that people can be aware, but that also, I hope at least, like our goal is also to create that space for empathy, like to use the power of storytelling to let people like connect with one another and realize like, you know, you might not think you care about indigenous communities or indigenous history in this country, like in the land that is ours that you live on, but here's why you should, you know?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: We all know and it's sad, but your time at Spotify is over.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: How are you feeling about like that? Are you feeling like you'll be able to continue to tell these stories, just maybe with a different group? Or like what are your thoughts on that?

CONNIE WALKER: I mean, I feel sad, really. Like I feel like we've been able to… like sad that this chapter is ending because I feel like we've done three seasons of Stolen, and I feel like we really kind of took advantage and did as much as we could and did some really ambitious storytelling and reporting, which I'm so proud of. But also, I know there's more to do. There's more. Like, you know, I'm absolutely committed to continuing this work in some way. What that looks like is unclear. I don't really know. Like the whole industry feels like it's really kind of imploded in the last year and like the kind of story that we tell, which is like investigative and narrative and told over eight episodes.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Like takes a long time.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. And I just feel like there's not as much investment in that right now. There's not as much of… there's not as many opportunities to do that kind of work. So I don't know. I hope we'll be able to continue. We'd love to find a new home for Stolen, but it also feels like, you know, we're at a bit of a crossroads, and we'll have to see. But I’d love… I think podcasting is really kind of the perfect medium for these stories because of everything we've been talking about for the last, you know, hour, like just, you know, the ability to kind of dive deeply and to really kind of try to like place people with you in the world that you're in and get this 360 view and get to know people. And it feels like…

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I think it's one of the few mediums that allows you to actually connect on a human level in a way that others just don't. It's just so strong in that capacity. And I think that, you know, if there's been any advances here in Canada in terms of that understanding, it's a lot of because of the work you do. It really is. Like I just think that that is just brought so much to the forefront to have people listen to it who care to listen. I really do. I think that your work is so important. And ironically, it shows in the year that you've had. It's an incredible year. How did it feel… like your last podcast was really about your father and the experiences, and it was so personal. And this one was personal because it was human nature and human beings and other indigenous women. Did it feel different for you to approach it? Like tell me a little bit about that, because it was such a different story for you.

CONNIE WALKER: And that was deliberate, honestly, like because surviving St. Michael's was such a deeply personal story. Like I absolutely did not want to do something personal again right away. Like I think I'm still honestly just kind of processing everything. And I think that maybe people have an idea that I know more than I do or have. Like I feel like this last like, you know, the last I guess five seasons of the podcast have been such an education for me as well. Like, you know, I didn't know this history. I didn't, you know, I didn't learn it in school. Like I have lived experiences, so I knew part of it. And I think that really helped me tell these stories in important ways. But this has all been such an education for me as well. And so I think that it's been a lot. It's been a lot to do for sure. So we really wanted to not have a personal story for season three. But that one presented its own challenges too. Like I think it was also really hard to not be from the community. And there's so much, I think… we had so much anxiety, and we tried to be so careful about like reporting on…

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Because you're dropping in somewhere.

CONNIE WALKER: Totally. And like we went on five reporting trips. Like that's a lot, but it's not a lot.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: No. You're not living there.

CONNIE WALKER: No.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah. Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: No. Yeah. And so like, you know, we worked with a Diné journalist who was kind of like our sensitivity reader / listener, who's actually from like the Cruiser Mountains area and still lives there. So I mean, that's like something we can do. But I feel like there was just so much effort put into wanting to fairly represent this place because we're not from there. I feel like I'm really drawn to stories that I am part of, though, as well. Like I feel like I would probably return to that in some way. Like I feel like that's what really kind of sparks my curiosity, and that I think I still have more learning to do and more understanding to do. And this is kind of my way of doing that.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Well, I was going to actually have the last question be from a quote from you that sort of ties to that, where it says we're all, this is from you. We're all talking about reconciliation and what it means to reconcile, but we don't even understand the truth yet.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I've learned, honestly. Through surviving St. Michael's, that's what I learned. I was like, what? Like how can we be post-truth? It's impossible that we could be post-truth. And it can be, you know, I think it was 2022 when we did that podcast, and we just uncovered like the history of this one school. And not even the history of it. Like a sliver of the history of this one school. And that that hasn't happened for like the hundred schools that were in Canada, however many were in the United States, it's kind of still shocking to me. And it's the thing that I feel like so proud of. That podcast and so proud of what we were able to do and like so personally grateful to have had that experience like as an intergenerational survivor, and to get to know more about my own family and my own history. But I think it's really shameful that we don't know more and that we aren't like stopping everything right now to make that happen. That's really something I think, you know, next week, I'll be unemployed, and I'm going to try to take some time off and, you know, relax a bit. But I think I'll be trying to think about the things that feel that urgent to me and like the work that I'm connected to, that I'm so passionate about, that is still ongoing here.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I can't wait to hear what you do next. And congrats on all of the success. It's really so exciting to sit back and see, and your work is amazing. So thanks for that.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you, and thank you for having me. And it's so nice to get to talk about this with such a thoughtful listener. And, you know, because like once the podcast is out, like the infrastructure to be as invested in it kind of just disappears.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I know. It’s a weird feeling.

CONNIE WALKER: It’s so weird. But then you're like, oh my God, someone's interested. I want to talk to you about it. Can we talk for a couple of hours? Great.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Yeah, we can keep going. Thanks, Connie.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. We drop a new episode every Monday. You can get our next episode a week early on CBC Podcasts’ YouTube channel or by subscribing to the CBC Podcasts’ true crime channel on Apple Podcasts. In addition to Early Access, subscribers to our true crime channel also listen ad free. Crime Story is written and hosted by me. Our producers are Alexis Green and Sarah Claydon. Sound design by Graham MacDonald. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner. Our video producer is Evan Aagaard. Our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Executive producers are Cesil Fernandes and Chris Oke. Tanya Springer is CBC Podcasts’ senior manager, and Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts.

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Transcript: Crime Story, Episode 31

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