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The Current Transcript for March 11, 2024

Host: Rebecca Zandbergen

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

SOUNDCLIP

SAMANTHA COLE: Pornhub started in Montreal, where these guys who were part of foosball club, they were your typical tech bros, and they wanted to make a bunch of money. They saw an opening in an industry that they felt like they could disrupt.

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: Today, Pornhub is one of the biggest websites on the planet with 100 million hits a day. We speak to the host of a new CBC podcast about the adult content site, its humble beginnings, its meteoric rise and the massive scandal that forced it to make huge changes. In 30 minutes, how porn has been a driver of change on the internet. Also on the program, we go to Ukraine, where a Canadian volunteer is on a mission to help victims of war:

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL HUGHES: We don't really know what the trauma is with these kids, right? So. But right now they're having fun and they have smiles on their face, which is the most important thing.

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: With more than 300 missions under his belt, Paul Hughes has been providing humanitarian aid on the ground now for the past two years. In an hour, his surprising journey, the people he has come to know and why he says Ukraine needs Canada now more than ever. But we begin in Saskatchewan, where a teachers’ strike is highlighting the increasing complexities of our classrooms and their need for more support. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, sitting in for Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Inclusive classrooms

Guests: Peggy Welter, Kate Dudley-Logue, Monique Somaa,

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: If you speak to a teacher pretty much anywhere in this country, they will probably tell you they are feeling stretched. Class size and composition are key of creating a productive classroom, and there is an increasing mix of students with complex needs. Kids with learning disabilities, behavioural issues or young newcomers learning to speak English. Teachers say they need more support. In Saskatchewan, this issue has come to a head. Teachers in that province have been carrying out one day strikes and withdrawing services since the start of this year. Peggy Welter is a teacher in Saskatchewan and an executive member of the Saskatchewan Teachers Federation, and she joins me now from Regina. Good morning.

PEGGY WELTER: Good morning, Rebecca.

RZ: Peggy, what kind of challenges are the kids in your classes facing right now?

PEGGY WELTER: There are so many challenges these kids are facing. We see kids who have speech issues. We see kids with learning issues, students who struggle with behaviour, behavioural controls, just being able to even just sit through a class. Some of them barely able to sit through five minutes of a class, distractions. Just--we have kids who are unable to physically do the work due to gross motor skills or fine motor skills issues. Students who are ESL students or refugees who come with their own sets of issues. And then we have mental health issues on top of that.

RZ: And how are you able to meet all of those challenges? Are you?

PEGGY WELTER: Quite frankly, we aren't. I--you know, we hear all the time that we need to be inclusive and help all these kids, but what we're feeling is like we've been abandoned with these children, and these children have been abandoned by the education system because as much as teachers want to be able to do everything for all their students, there's not the time or the resources. We don't have, we don't have the financial support, the people support or the material support to be able to do it.

RZ: So, take me inside a classroom for a minute. What does it look like when those needs are not met? What happens?

PEGGY WELTER: It can be utterly chaotic. Teachers are stretched to the absolute breaking point where you know you can't help everybody all the time. If you have a 60-minute class and you have 30 kids in that class and you're going to teach a lesson to the whole group to begin with, if that lesson takes you 30 minutes, that means every student gets one minute of your time. If you have no additional people in that room, no EAs, no other supports, that means it's absolutely up to the teacher to deal with all the needs, all the questions, all the extra learning requirements of those students. And one minute is not enough time to make sure that happens. So, teachers are absolutely stretched. It becomes chaos at times depending on what you're dealing with. If you have students who have serious behavioural issues that can make it nearly impossible to even get through a lesson. If you have children with mental health issues, you see a lot of students just sitting there and shutting down. It ends up becoming students who would otherwise be asking a question just to get clarification may not even have the opportunity to do so, or may look and go, the teacher is too busy dealing with this or this or this right now, so I won't ask my question. And then their needs aren't getting met, and they aren't even people who have any sort of needs outside of what we would consider like middle ground.

RZ: And do you hear from the kids themselves that they're feeling this and the parents too? I mean, are you getting feedback that they're frustrated?

PEGGY WELTER: One hundred per cent. I teach high school, so my students are very quick to come and say, you know, I had a question I didn't want to interrupt because you were dealing with this or you were working with this student, but I have a question. Or they'll send me a message through our online portals later and say, Hey, I didn't get a chance to ask you this in class. They'll come find me at breaks, things like that. Parents, too, will say the same thing. That they, but they know. The parents are saying, we know you can't get to every student. We know that there's not support for students. We know that you guys are doing what you can. Because when you have a student who is reading...in one classroom, you could have eight different reading levels, eight grades worth of reading levels. You're teaching a grade nine class. You might have students reading from grade three all the way through to grade 12 reading levels, and you have to be able to adjust for that. So, you can't always get around and get every student exactly what they need all the time.

RZ: Let's have a listen now to Saskatchewan's Premier outlining the province's investment in education. This is Scott Moe.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT MOE: We as a province have invested and invested heavily, through that significant per capita investment that Saskatchewan families make in education, $300 million dollars each and every year in supports for learning. $53.5 million dollars post-budget last year, specifically in classroom size and complexity.

RZ: So that funding Scott Moe just mentioned includes a $3.6 million pilot program to bring in specialized support classrooms--that's what they're called--to eight urban school divisions. What do you say to those pledges?

PEGGY WELTER: That that specialized pilot program only helps the one per cent of our students. If, it's so frustrating as a teacher to hear these little drops of money here and there, because we have students all across the province who need supports, and we have seen year after year funding where they say it is, you know, record funding. It's funding that was clawed back in 2017 and has not come back up to those levels due to funding below inflation since then. So, we have seen consistent, where they say it's record funding. We consider it to be underfunding because we're having to lose people because the money's not there.

RZ: Peggy, I have about 20 seconds left. But what happens, do you believe, if nothing changes in your mind?

PEGGY WELTER: Students are the ones that are going to feel it. We have seen kids now who, my grade 12 class. They've seen this throughout their entire education and we're just going to see it continue. In terms of what this means for teachers in Saskatchewan, we've made it clear what we need. And if the government's not willing to do that, we'll just see more of what's been happening, because students matter, and we need their learning conditions to improve.

RZ: Peggy Welter, thank you for your time today.

PEGGY WELTER: You're welcome.

RZ: Peggy Welter is a teacher with the Prairie Valley School Division and an executive member of the Saskatchewan Teachers Federation. Kate Dudley-Logue is a parent in Ottawa. She has two children, both with autism spectrum disorder, with very different needs from each other. Kate, good morning to you.

KATE DUDLEY-LOGUE: Good morning.

RZ: Kate, let's talk about your daughter first. She is in what's called a mainstream or inclusive classroom. What has her experience been like?

KATE DUDLEY-LOGUE: Absolutely. She, you know, my daughter, Ruby, she does have autism spectrum disorder. And, you know, her education so far has been many ups and downs, for sure. As she's matured, she's in grade eight now, so we're looking towards high school next year. Her early years were very challenging. She struggled with behaviours. She struggled with the ability to learn. She's sort of at a place now through, I think maturity and lots of clinical supports outside of school where she does quite well, and she has the ability to do quite well if she has the supports. But what we're seeing now and just to sort of double down on what Peggy was saying is the supports really aren't there. Both my kids go to a school that has very well-intentioned staff. They go above and beyond to do all that they can to support the students. But the reality that we're seeing is unless the child has pretty extreme behavioural challenges that make safety an issue or, you know, self-independence skills are an extreme issue, they're really not getting the extra support. So for a child like Ruby, whose supports really like just in her ability to learn, she could do quite well if she had somebody, an EA, sitting with her and helping support her and prompting her and making sure she's understanding and, you know, helping her get through the work. She could do quite well, but that just isn't the reality here today.

RZ: So, you talk about your daughter, but you also have a son. How--what does his classroom look like? How is it different for him?

KATE DUDLEY-LOGUE: Yeah. So, my two kids are on the opposite sides of the autism spectrum, whereas my daughter can get by in a mainstream classroom, my son has a lot of other challenges. He's non-verbal. Behaviour wise, there are a lot of challenges there. He doesn't sit still. He can be loud. He has lots of sensory needs. For a kid like him, the best environment for him would be a smaller, special education classroom where he's surrounded by a small amount of other children with similar profiles and a lot of support there for him. So, he's in the same school as my daughter, but he's in what's called an autism classroom. So, there are six children. Again, all have similar profiles. And when I say similar profiles, I just mean that they have high needs. All six of those children may actually have very different needs, but they're, they do get the support that they need. It's a routine that he can understand and follow and he's able to be there safely. [RZ: Kate---] Which is really, the most important thing.

RZ: You know, he's in one of these classes where, you know, like you say, six students only, where they have similar needs, though varying. But there is talk, I mean, we're seeing some schools winding down those intensive support classes. What would you worry about if that were to happen at your school?

KATE DUDLEY-LOGUE: Yeah, I think particularly in Ontario, this is what we're seeing all across the province. School boards are shutting down these congregated classrooms. And it's like, for me, it's a very scary thought and something that I lose sleep over at night, for sure. Because for someone like my son to be in a mainstream classroom, it really doesn't make much sense for anybody. He can't sit still. He, in terms of the academics, he's in grade five, but he's probably at the level of about a kindergartener where he's still learning numbers and letters. And he has an ability to learn, but the content needs to be at his level. Right? He would for sure need a one-on-one EA. And even then, he's not sitting at a desk listening for long periods of time. So, for him to even be forced to sit in a mainstream classroom would be quite traumatic for him. And the reality is that is happening to many children. But what ends up happening is they end up getting removed from the class because they're disruptive. So, they're not sitting still. They're disrupting the rest of the students in the class. And you can't really tell me that that's inclusion if they're spending the vast majority of their day going for walks around the school or being taken to a sensory room.

RZ: Kate, we do have to wrap up here, but I'm curious, you know where you are going to talk to someone about the research around inclusive classrooms and how that, the research says is the best for everyone involved. What do you make of that, then?

KATE DUDLEY-LOGUE: Well, again, for someone like my daughter, I do believe that's true if the supports are there. You hear people saying all the time, inclusion is a fabulous idea. But it's not inclusion if you're putting kids into a classroom and not supporting them. It's really more like abandoning them, right? You know, so we hope for the best, but it's not a one size fits all. We need to look at individual children and what their needs are. And for some kids a congregated smaller classroom is what they need.

RZ: Okay, Kate. We're going to leave it there. Thank you so much for your time.

KATE DUDLEY-LOGUE: Thank you.

RZ: Kate Dudley-Logue is a parent of two children with special needs in Ottawa. Now, Monique Somma is an assistant professor in the Department of Educational Studies at Brock University. She also taught for 15 years. Monique Somaa, good morning to you.

MONIQUE SOMMA: Good morning.

RZ: Monique. You know, you've listened here to Peggy and Kate. Do you think inclusive classrooms have lived up to their promise?

MONIQUE SOMMA: Well, that's a loaded question. Thank you, Peggy and Kate. I loved hearing your perspective. When we think about, you know, I think Kate's right on the money when she says the idea of inclusive classrooms is great, but the supports need to be in place in the inclusive classroom. And, you know, as Peggy described that's not what is currently happening in all places. I would say that we know that the research says that children do the same or better in inclusive classrooms. And we also recognize the important impact it has on the other children when we see, we want to see school as a microcosm of society. And when people are separated for different reasons, that's not really what society looks like. And so, part of inclusion is looking at the outcomes that that system is having for everybody involved. Including all of the other children, to be able to learn and develop skills to be around people that learn differently or behave differently or whatever.

RZ: We've heard from teachers and parents today already who say, you know, in theory it sounds great, but it isn't working for a [MONIQUE: Right.] variety of reasons. So, in your mind, what is missing? Does it, is it just money that needs to be put into this, or is there more than that?

MONIQUE SOMMA: Well, I think money is part of it. One of the interesting things about Canada, is that we don't have, our funding for education is all done provincially. And so, we don't have a federal or even, most provinces, except for one, have an inclusive education strategy or mandate. So, what happens is special education services vary significantly from school board to school board. So, you could be in the same community in one school board and very different practices are happening than they're happening in the coterminous school board down the street. And that's really, really, difficult and challenging for everybody involved. Can be very frustrating for parents, can be very frustrating for teachers. And I do think there is a financial component to that because our special education funding model doesn't account for all of the other children that require support as well, as Peggy and Kate we're talking about, in the classroom. And what's happened is school boards have to make decisions about who gets what, and they're looking at safety and self-care. And they're not looking at all the rest of the students. So, when school boards are making decisions about closing classrooms, for example, they need to be committed to keep the supports with the students in whatever school. But that's not always happening. So, it might happen initially, but then over time, that funding gets moved elsewhere and dispersed into other things.

RZ: Is there any room — we heard Kate talk about her son in particular, who she has trouble imagining being in a mainstream classroom, says that her son needs the support, the one-on-one that the congregated setting would bring. I mean, in your mind, is there any room for intensive support classes fitting into the system?

MONIQUE SOMMA: So, I mean, we have intensive support classes in the system already. I have seen some school boards do some really creative things around ensuring supports remain in the school for students. So, you're kind of reimagining what that congregated class is rather than being a congregated class just for specific students, more as a support hub for the entire school. So those resources stay in the school. And those specialized teachers and specially trained educational assistants stay in the school that continue to support the students, but then are also able to be there to support other children as well. Because really, we know that, you know, there's always other students that, you know, would benefit from the support. I mean, as Peggy clearly described in her, in her points.

RZ: You know, you taught special education yourself and inclusive classes for over a decade. Now you're teaching future teachers about students with special needs. How do you prepare them, just before we go?

MONIQUE SOMMA: Okay. So, one of the things I, one of the things I say to my students right away is you're all special education teachers, everybody. So, you know, let's get ready for that. When we want them to believe and know that they can, you know, make accommodations, and differentiate their lessons. And we really try to help prepare them to do that. And I also come from the, you know, reality, when I'm having conversations with them or working through getting them prepared, you know, for strategies and all of the things that they're going to need. But I also want them to go into it recognizing that when I plan my lessons, I need to plan with the assumption that I will not have support. And then if I have support, then that's a bonus. And I feel like that's really what the reality is in the system, probably across the board. It's an unfortunate reality because students who require support should have the support, but it's not really where we're at currently in our funding model. I think that if the provinces or the country wanted to be inclusive, they would need to say, we're going to be inclusive and we're going to put in the necessary supports to do that. And they're just not doing that.

RZ: Okay, Monique, we have to leave it there, as well. Thank you so much for your time this morning. [MONIQUE: No problem.] I appreciate it. [MONIQUE: Thank you.] Monique Somma is an assistant professor in the Department of Educational Studies at Brock University. The CBC News is next. And then:

SOUNDCLIP

SAMANTHA COLE: Some of the earliest people on the internet were pornographers and people uploading their own contents, uploading other people's content and fulfilling this need that people had where they wanted to log on and have all of this at their fingertips.

[Music: Instrumental]

RZ: A look at how porn drove technology and the impact it has had on the way we access content on the internet. My interview with Samantha Cole, host of the new CBC podcast: The Pornhub Empire. That's coming up in six minutes. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music fades up]

How PornHub became an internet empire

Guests: Samantha Cole

RZ: I'm Rebecca Zandbergen sitting in for Matt Galloway. And you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

SAMANTHA COLE: Do you remember your first day on the job?

SPEAKER: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I got a tour of the cubicles. I got shown my cubicle and essentially was told to, like, watch a bunch of porn.

RZ: That first day on the job was at Pornhub, one of the biggest websites in the world.

[Music: Instrumental]

RZ: It gets more than 100 million visits a day.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: You're watching porn, and then you get startled, thinking that maybe your manager is seeing you watch porn, but then you realize that, oh, my manager is going to be pissed if they see me not watching porn.

SPEAKER: Eventually, what ends up happening is the thing that you feel like you need to hide on your screen it's like, oh, I was just like listening to YouTube or something in the background as I was doing stuff. I don't want anybody to see that because they know that that's not work. So yeah.

RZ: That's an excerpt of The Pornhub Empire, a new CBC podcast. It traces the site's history back to its origins as a Start-Up in Montreal and looks at how it revolutionized sex on the internet. Its host, Samantha Cole, also watches porn for a living. She's a technology journalist who has covered the adult industry for several years. Samantha is also the author of the book How Sex Changed the Internet and the Internet Change Sex. An unexpected history. And she is in Los Angeles. Good morning.

SAMANTHA COLE: Good morning. How are you?

RZ: I'm doing well. Samantha, what exactly is Pornhub?

SAMANTHA COLE: Pornhub is the place for internet porn for the last, about 20 years. Pornhub has become the synonymous brand for internet porn and specifically for a free porn online.

RZ: And how did it get to be that big?

SAMANTHA COLE: So Pornhub started in 2007. It was originally, you know, approached as a business. It was as a tech company. So it was entering into this era of the internet where everything was kind of freewheeling and free. It was following in the steps of YouTube where people could just log on and, you know, not even log in and just start watching whatever videos they wanted and upload whatever they wanted. So that was the model that Pornhub was jumping into when it first started. It was free porn, free uploads and, you know, the ability to scroll around and click around and see whatever you wanted, whatever your fantasy was.

RZ: And how did it start in Canada? Who were the people behind it that it became, as you call it, one of Canada's biggest cultural exports?

SAMANTHA COLE: Yeah. People are surprised to learn, I think a lot of the time that it started in Montreal, and it was a huge employer in Montreal and still is. Pornhub started in Montreal, where these guys who were part of a foosball club, they were your typical tech bros, and they wanted to make a bunch of money. They saw an opening in an industry that they felt like they could disrupt, and they definitely did.

RZ: You mentioned that Pornhub is sort of modelled or was modelled after YouTube, which was really cropping up at that time. Just describe to us the landscape of the internet at that time. What was all happening?

SAMANTHA COLE: I mean, the internet at that time was experiencing kind of this boom of user-generated content. So, things like, you know, Myspace and Facebook and YouTube, of course. Where the main thing that was being consumed online was other people's content, like their music or their pictures. At the same time, you had this idea that everything was meant to be free. So, we had things like Napster, which had pirated music, and we had torrented movies. And in those footsteps, we had Pornhub and other tube sites. And that was the attitude that people had around things on the internet at the time was, you know, why pay for content? It's everywhere.

RZ: You've talked a lot about, too, about how the porn industry sort of has driven technology. In what ways did it do that?

SAMANTHA COLE: Yeah, the porn industry and the adult industry have pioneered some of the biggest technological advances that, you know, we always hear porn kind of invented the VHS tape and then the DVD player, you know, it popularized these things. And then with the internet, that's pretty true as well. Some of the earliest people on the internet were pornographers and people uploading their own content, uploading other people's content, and fulfilling this need that people had where they wanted to log on and have all of this at their fingertips. And porn entrepreneurs and people in the adult industry trying to make this their livelihood are very resilient, and they're very entrepreneurial in general. It's an industry that moves very, very fast. So you have to be ready to jump on whatever the next big thing is and be ready to pioneer the latest hot technology. So in that way, it's been pushing the envelope, so to speak, for years and years and years.

RZ: We'll talk more about that and AI specifically, but I am curious, you know, there are other porn sites. What is it about Pornhub that it became the biggest player in the industry?

SAMANTHA COLE: I think Pornhub did something really smart from the beginning, which, like I said, was to treat it like a tech company. They were doing a lot of, like, AB testing. A lot of paying attention to who their demographics were, who their users were. Tracking users and what they were interested in across the website. So I think in that way, Pornhub kind of had an advantage over a lot of other sites that were maybe just putting up, you know, content and saying, hopefully it works. They were paying a lot of attention to the data, and at the same time they were making themselves this mainstream force. They had lots of PR campaigns and marketing about, like, who was watching what during the Super Bowl or what the most searched type of porn was that year. So they made it fun for people to talk about porn and to talk about internet porn. And I think in that way, they definitely they mainstreamed the idea that everybody watches porn online, and that it's okay to talk about it.

RZ: Yeah. I mean, when you talk about the number of people visiting the site, it's fun until it isn't for people. I know you also started covering sexual abuse that has been available on the site. Images and videos of sexual abuse. Tell us a little bit about the stories you've heard in covering this.

SAMANTHA COLE: Yeah. So, because sites like Pornhub allowed anyone to upload whatever they want onto their sites what they had was a big problem with people uploading abuse images. So, we call it nonconsensual abuse imagery now. The old term for it would have been revenge porn. And then also things like child sexual abuse material and things like that. And all user generated sites, even Facebook and Instagram and Twitter have this problem. But because Pornhub had positioned itself as the name for porn online, it had this target on its back about what was on the site. So, you know, in my research, I found a lot of folks who were complaining about reporting things to Pornhub and being frustrated that it wasn't taken down fast enough or that it was spreading widely. People were using Pornhub to dox them, which means, you know, out them to their communities and name them and things like that. And again, this is--it's such a big problem across the whole entire internet. But because Pornhub has, you know, created this name for itself as the place to go for porn, and because there are always going to be people who say porn is exploitative and who want to say that all porn is not healthy or not working, you know, they're the ones who had to deal with that kind of backlash. So it's facing a lot of, a lot of criticism in the last few years.

RZ: Yeah. And the New York Times has done stories and investigations into the sexual abuses that are available to see on the website. But the, I understand Pornhub tried to do or has been scrubbing those images that they, you know, they have images of people who have not consented. What, how difficult has that been? And have they managed to get it all?

SAMANTHA COLE: Yeah. So, after a lot of really loud criticism, specifically lobbied toward Pornhub and a lot of people saying Pornhub should be shut down altogether, Pornhub tried to revamp its entire moderation process. It didn't just try to; it successfully did revamp its entire moderation process. It's improved a lot of the safety measures that are on the site. It's scrubbed the site of a ton unverified content. So, the videos that were uploaded without proof that people owned the videos that they were uploading were taken off the site. It became impossible to upload new videos if you didn't show proof that you owned them or that you were in them. They recently made it, so you have to provide paperwork that everyone in the video consents to their videos being or their images being on Pornhub. So, it's had a really big, you know, moments of focusing on safety and making it a really safe place to watch porn and to upload porn.

RZ: Who was behind the sort of anti-Pornhub campaigns?

SAMANTHA COLE: So here in the States, anyway, and I think this is happening in Canada as well for the porn industry, Conservative lobbyists, people who want to ban things like library books that talk about different sexual experiences, different genders and orientations and I think the industry is really facing some difficult times when it comes to that force. The very loud minority that's happening here.

RZ: And has Pornhub been the subject of lawsuits as a result?

SAMANTHA COLE: Pornhub has faced a few lawsuits. Most recently, it's been facing quite a few from people who say that they have had their exploitation content up on the site and that it's caused serious harm in their lives. And of course, having this content spread on Pornhub is--because it's such a popular site and because so many people visit it, it can be massively damaging to your entire life. I've talked to people who have had to move, you know, change their entire communities, who were disowned by their families because stuff that they didn't want on Pornhub ended up on Pornhub. So, yeah, they're being sued quite a bit by people who, you know, are claiming that the content is up on the site, and it shouldn't be.

RZ: You know, there is some headway in interest, anyway. At least there's a Senate bill being proposed in Canada. And we've seen similar legislation being brought forward and passed in the U.S., and that is to require age verification if you want to get into these porn sites. And I know you spoke to the senator behind the bill. What did she tell you about how that would work and why she thinks it's necessary?

SAMANTHA COLE: Yeah. So the age verification bills that are passing and here they're passing into law quite quickly and frequently nowadays in several states, they position the issue as something that platforms should be responsible for, and they put the responsibility on platforms to set up these age verification systems, but they don't really explain how that will be enforced, how the system should work, or anything like that, which puts the platforms in a tough position to try to be, you know, within the law on these things. Something that I talked to the senator about a bit and that I think the adult industry is asking for and has been asking for quite a bit is to look into device level protection. So, parental controls that are on devices already, and having children's access to adult material and explicit material controlled through those device level methods. So, I think it's still very much a conversation that's heated and, you know, it's up in the air whether, how it's going to shake out in Canada, of course. But here we're seeing Pornhub pull out of states completely, saying, you know, because these laws are vague and overbroad, they're just not even not even going to serve some of the states where they've passed.

RZ: You know, one thing we haven't talked about is the sex workers themselves, those who are in these videos and these images with their consent, who are paid, you know, to be in these scenes. How is all of this affecting them? That the fallout from the New York Times investigations and all the backlash on Pornhub, how is that playing out for those who are in this industry by choice?

SAMANTHA COLE: When Visa and Mastercard pulled out of Pornhub and didn't return, that was a huge, huge fallout for these folks who are in the industry, earning a living on these platforms and who, you know are abiding by the law. Pornography is a legal industry, and they just lost a huge chunk of their livelihoods in some cases because they were relying on the exposure and the revenue coming from Pornhub. And I think for a lot of people, this entire battle that's happening on the internets with porn is really frightening. It's definitely something that scares me as someone who cares about free expression and cares about sex workers. And I think that's something that's people writing legislation and working on these bills, especially around age verification, need to keep in mind, is people affected by this are sex workers. They're the ones using these platforms, and they should be involved in these conversations, too. And they have really good ideas and really good practices for keeping kids safe, already.

RZ: You know, we talked a little bit earlier about AI and how, and technology, and how porn seems to be on the cutting edge of technology a lot of time. And AI deepfakes, they're changing porn. Give us a sense of how that's being used in porn.

SAMANTHA COLE: From the beginning deepfakes started as a way to make fake porn. So, it was putting celebrities faces onto real videos of porn and sex acts. And nowadays, we see these generative AI systems that can create that sort of material wholesale. It's such a new and rapidly changing technology, but something that we've seen already is that people are making deepfakes to harass women, especially. And that's an issue that I think a lot of people are very worried about, but no one's quite sure how to stop it at this point. How we'll handle that in the future I think is going to be really interesting.

RZ: Given where Pornhub and other porn sites are at, I mean, do you think internet, sex on the internet, watching porn on the internet will prevail? I mean, is there enough pushback that we'll see it move back into the shadows, or is this here to stay?

SAMANTHA COLE: I think porn is here to stay. And I think, I have an optimistic view of that as someone who wants porn to be here to stay. It's just gotten so much harder to have, you know, that freedom of expression and that sexual expression, especially on the internet. And I think that's kind of, that's what's ahead is more and more challenges in that realm.

RZ: I appreciate your time today. Congratulations on the podcast.

SAMANTHA COLE: Thank you so much.

RZ: Samantha Cole is the host of the CBC podcast: The Pornhub Empire. You can listen to it today wherever you get your podcasts.

[Music: Instrumental]

Matchmaking conches

Guests: Gabe Delgado

RZ: I'm Rebecca Zandbergen and you are listening to The Current. If you try to conjure up images of seashells, chances are you might imagine a conch. That big, beautiful shell with the pink, shiny interior that somehow brings the sound of the ocean to you when you put it up to your ear. But scientists in Florida are worried about the conch, the queen conch, in particular. The population is dwindling, and it seems like the key to reversing that trend is a little conch matchmaking. Gabe Delgado is an associate research scientist with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. And we've reached him in the Florida Keys. Good morning.

GABE DELGADO: Morning. Thank you for having me.

RZ: Gabe, what's going on with the queen conch? What are the populations doing?

GABE DELGADO: Well, the queen conch, in the state of Florida is a protected species since 1985, when all harvest was closed due to over exploitation. And the population since then had been recovering quite nicely. But recently, with the passage of Hurricane Irma that came through in 2017 and Hurricane Ian in 2022, the population in the Keys has experienced a little bit of a decline. And so, what we are trying to do is help that population, give it a boost, and help the population recover a little bit by, as you say, doing a little bit, a little bit of matchmaking. One of the interesting things about the queen conch population in the Keys is that those conches that are found in nearshore water, meaning right adjacent to the islands, in very shallow water, knee-deep, chest-deep water, those conches are not reproductively active. But if you move them into the offshore aggregations or herds that are found along the back reef, along the reef track, in about six months or so, their reproductive capabilities are rescued. And so, it's a way of move, or it's a way of moving animals that are not contributing to future generations and moving them into an area where they can potentially contribute to the future of the population.

RZ: Okay. Lots there. So, what is the main reason we're seeing the population struggle? You mentioned hurricanes. Why would that play into this?

GABE DELGADO: Well, even, as I mentioned most concrete conch populations are found in relatively shallow water, even the ones offshore on the reef track. And so when a hurricane comes by, that's a lot of wave energy, a lot of movement of the water and a lot of sand gets moved around. And so, the queen conch will be buried or potentially, if you will, be blown away, so to speak, by waves. And so, the physical disturbance of the hurricane will impact the population. And one of the other interesting biological aspects of the species is that if their densities are reduced to a low enough, they have trouble finding each other to reproduce. So, if there's a zombie apocalypse, to use a human analogy, if there's a zombie apocalypse and the last man is in Canada and the last woman is in Australia, they're going to have a hard time finding each other to repopulate the human species. And so, a similar thing happens with queen conch. If you reduce their densities low enough, they have a hard time finding each other to reproduce.

RZ: And why are they in shallow waters? And why is it those populations that are struggling?

GABE DELGADO: So, the queen conch, when they lay their eggs, when the eggs hatch, the larvae are planktonic, meaning they float around in the water column. And so the queen conch that you find near shore are simply floating there and settle in appropriate habitat near shore. But why they don't reproduce has to do again with those very shallow waters. So, in the, it's basically temperature extremes. When in winter when the water is basically too cold for them to properly develop their sexual reproductive organs. And so there's a Goldilocks zone, if you will, where the temperatures are just right, where they can develop. So, it's too cold in the winter, just right for a little while. And then in summer, because that water is very shallow, it heats up too much and they shut down. So that's our current theory as to why those nearshore populations are not reproducing.

RZ: And so, what is the matchmaking you're doing? What are you going to do?

GABE DELGADO: We're, so, our plan is to take those non-reproductive queen conches that we find near shore and move them into the offshore aggregations or, as I like to think as queen conch as marine cows because they're herbivorous. Graze on algae. But anyway, we're moving them from nearshore into those offshore aggregations that have experienced declines. And so are, perhaps at that minimum density or below that minimum density to increase their density, and so that we can make it easier for these animals to find each other, to reproduce, lay eggs, and contribute to the next generation.

RZ: And do you hope that eventually they go back to the shallow waters? Do you need them there?

GABE DELGADO: Well, they obviously perform a function there in the shallow water. They do, you know, they are herbivorous. They graze on algae. And they’re also a food source for organisms higher up the food chain. So, spiny lobster, which is a very valuable commercial fishery and recreational fishery here in Florida. Spiny lobster consumes juvenile queen conch, turtles, sea turtles. Also, certain species of sea turtles also consume, queen conchs. So, they're not, they're not just pretty shells. They actually do perform vital roles in the ecosystem.

RZ: Right. And so, do you hope when you bring them to deeper waters, eventually they find their way back to shallow waters?

GABE DELGADO: No, they don't. So, while they may be, they are giant marine snails, as you said at the beginning. And so, they are mobile, but they're not that mobile. They will not find their way as adults back to their, to where we moved them from. The larvae will settle there. But we have done research shows, this is a been a while now, maybe 20 years ago, where we tagged them with acoustic transmitters and tracked their movements. The animals that we moved and the animals that were native to those offshore aggregations. And they interact with each other just fine. They use the same habitats. They don't, this the ones that we moved don't displace the natives. So no, they will stay there and be part of that particular congregation.

RZ: Gabe, I have to say I googled a conch this morning just to see what it looked like when it's not just a shell. And the googly eyes themselves are worth the Google.

GABE DELGADO: Yes, one can argue that that's a face only a mother could love, but it does possess a certain charm.

RZ: Yes, it does. Gabe, thank you so much for your time this morning.

GABE DELGADO: My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

RZ: Gabe Delgado is an associate research scientist with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. And coming up after your regional update...

[Music: Instrumental]

RZ: Paul Hughes has conducted hundreds of humanitarian missions in Ukraine. He is a Canadian military vet and has been providing food and supplies and reuniting families, often at his own risk. Now, how Paul Hughes is helping people devastated by that war. Coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen and you're listening to The Current.

[Music fades up]

A Canadian volunteer in Ukraine

RZ: I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, again, sitting in for Matt Galloway. And you're listening to The Current. It's been more than two years since Russia invaded Ukraine, and when the war started, one Canadian military veteran was determined to help. Paul Hughes built a small humanitarian organization called: HUGS. It's based in Kharkiv, a city about 40 kilometres from the border with Russia. The CBC's Danny Kerslake caught up with Paul Hughes there. And here is Danny's documentary, Mission 300. And just a quick note before we begin, there are a couple of swear words in this piece.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL HUGHES: Come on in. The HUGS garage in Kharkiv. And here we have some of our people are working, like, Owen and Alex and J.P.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul Hughes is leading a tour at HUGS It stands for Helping Ukraine Grassroot Support. And it doesn't get more grassroots than this.

[Sounds: banging]

DANNY KERSLAKE: The headquarters is an auto repair shop with vans and cars in various states of disrepair. Mechanics buzz around.

PAUL HUGHES: Yeah, we provide all the labour for free, and we try to help out once in a while if there's parts with some organizations that are struggling for parts.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Hughes pays for this shop and the mechanics with money raised by donors in Canada. They fix up a lot of vehicles used by the military. Volunteers, NGOs and other nonprofits also bring vehicles here for emergency repairs, but they do way more than patch up trucks.

PAUL HUGHES: And over here we have a bit of an office.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Canadian and Ukrainian flags hang on the walls. It began as a one-man operation, but HUGS has grown to include a rotating crew of dozens of volunteers.

PAUL HUGHES: There's a lot of suffering here, and anybody who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves and is ignoring the very harsh reality of this attack on a sovereign country. There's misery everywhere.

DANNY KERSLAKE: From the very beginning, HUGS has worked to ease that misery in whatever way it can.

[Sound: Air-raid siren]

SPEAKER: Russia is attacking Ukraine. It is a multipronged full-scale invasion, and those sirens you hear, a clear signal to people in Kyiv to take shelter.

PAUL HUGHES: Hello.

SPEAKER: Hi.

PAUL HUGHES: CBC in Calgary?

SPEAKER: Yeah. Paul. Tell us where exactly you are right now.

PAUL HUGHES: I'm in [unclear.]

DANNY KERSLAKE: Two years ago, Paul hastily left his farm and his son to join the fight in Ukraine.

PAUL HUGHES: Ukrainian armed forces.

DANNY KERSLAKE: That's Paul speaking with CBC Radio in Calgary in early March 2022.

PAUL HUGHES: I don't like bullies, and I believe Putin is, you know, the biggest bully of the 21st century. And I fundamentally believe he needs to be stopped somehow.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul has no ties to the country. He's a former soldier with Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. That's where I met Paul. We served in Germany together back in the 1980s, and we've kept in touch. Paul is charismatic and brash. He's like a big brother to me, and he doesn't always ask for permission. He gets things done.

PAUL HUGHES: So many women and children. So many children. Too many children. And the more kids I saw crying strengthened my resolve.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul has always been dedicated to fighting for social justice. He was front and centre at Occupy Calgary, and he founded Grow Calgary, a farm that raises vegetables for local food banks. When he went to Ukraine, Paul initially planned to join the fight. But in those days the Ukrainian military wasn't ready to arm foreigners. So, Paul began helping out chopping wood at soup kitchens and making sandwiches. He realized he wasn't there to fight after all. HUGS quickly followed.

PAUL HUGHES: So, we have some food items that we put aside for them and holding this stuff, up we go. There we go. Everything is humanitarian based, and so the delivery of food to remote, isolated communities that are near the front and eastern part of Ukraine. So, food, clothing, bedding, shelter, hygiene-related items. And we do a lot of medical related work, a lot of medicine. So, these are some pre-packed packaged meals. Our bags, food bags.

DANNY KERSLAKE: CBC met up with Paul in Kharkiv earlier this month for a HUGS milestone. Humanitarian mission number 300.

PAUL HUGHES: And now we're going to go in and load this really quickly in the back. And then we're off to the races.

DANNY KERSLAKE: First stop a warehouse in Kharkiv to pick up supplies. The aid arrives there through what Paul describes as an independent humanitarian pipeline, with most of the donations coming from Europe. We're along for the ride with help from a local journalist. Then it's off to Vylkove, about 75 kilometres southwest of Kharkiv. The town had previously been occupied by Russian soldiers. They are still nearby an hour or so away.

PAUL HUGHES: And this is a bridge, blown out bridge and they're repairing it. And now the main bridge. This is the temporary bridge that we're on right now. There's some more stuff. There's an occupation over here. Bombs on the road. Everywhere you look there's some sign of war.

DANNY KERSLAKE: On this day, HUGS is delivering more than 100 boxes of medicine, food, clothes, toys and books to a makeshift classroom. It's in a building across from the red brick school destroyed in the war. But there's some confusion when they arrive.

[Foreign speech]

DANNY KERSLAKE: Locals were hoping for even more school supplies, which are needed most. But children are happy to see toys and musical instruments.

PAUL HUGHES: We don't really know what the trauma is with these kids, right? So. But right now they're having fun and they have smiles on their face, which is the most important thing. Mission 300. The kids had a good time. Lots of smiles. So, yeah. Mission 300 complete.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Previous missions proved to be more challenging. Paul helped recover the body of a Canadian killed while fighting alongside Ukrainian troops last April. But Paul's most memorable mission is number 114.

PAUL HUGHES: A lady from Holland contacted me. Her name's Debbie. I never talked to her before. And she told me the story about a six-year-old girl that was down in Zaporizhzhia that needed to be picked up and evacuated to her mother, who was in Holland.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Debbie was calling for Yuliana Lapianova. They'd heard that HUGS had done some evacuations. Juliana had escaped the war, but her six-year-old daughter Katya, was with her ex-husband in southeast Ukraine.

YULIANA LAPIANOVA: [Foreign speech]

TRANSLATOR: I was very worried about Katya because she was in the city that was occupied, and it's still occupied.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Parts of Zaporizhzhia were under Russian control. But Paul had a rule.

PAUL HUGHES: We had a policy at that time with HUGS that we would not say no to any requests for humanitarian assistance. I don't think anybody would have said no.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul drove the 300 kilometres from Kharkiv to Zaporizhzhia. Then Yuliana sent the coordinates for where her daughter was waiting. It was on the other side, at the front line. The Russian side.

PAUL HUGHES: They sent me a pin and it was well within occupied territory. But there was no stopping me at that point. So, I decided to try to cross into Russian-held territory.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul ran into a roadblock. A military vehicle drove up. Russian soldiers climbed out, pointing their weapons.

PAUL HUGHES: I was definitely in over my head. And I just remember saying to these guys, Oh my bad, I'm lost. Sorry, just a silly Canadian here. I'll get going.

DANNY KERSLAKE: It didn't work. Paul was taken to a makeshift command centre. Soldiers searched his van and spread his belongings out at his feet. Among them, his NATO medal and his jump rings. Priceless mementos from his time in the Canadian military. But here they painted a dangerous picture.

PAUL HUGHES: I was being accused of being a spy. Lots of guys with guns, knives, lots of threatening gestures. That's the most terrified I've been in my entire life. You know, the jig is up and there's a pain associated with it that is just overwhelming.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul was detained for hours. In the Netherlands, Yuliana waited. She had no idea what was happening to the man who promised to rescue her daughter.

YULIANA LAPIANOVA: [Foreign speech]

TRANSLATOR: It was a very emotional difficult that day because I didn't know if my child was okay. I was very depressed and emotional.

DANNY KERSLAKE: In that Russian command centre, a man entered. He looked like a henchman in a Hollywood action film. Except this situation couldn't have been more real.

PAUL HUGHES: He's just a big guy. Shaved head, big, huge forearms. Just massive guy. He's got his body armour on. He's coming in out of the field, and he just looks very, very menacing. And I thought at that point, okay, this is the guy that's going to, you know, this is the executioner.

DANNY KERSLAKE: The soldier grabbed a chair and pulled up close. Really close. He spoke in English.

PAUL HUGHES: And he asked me, What do you do in Canada? And I'm, I said, Well, I'm a farmer. And he said immediately he said, Oh, I am also a farmer. And what do you farm? What do you grow? What do you raise?

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul couldn't believe it. He was bonding with his would-be executioner over the best way to grow vegetables and raise pigs.

PAUL HUGHES: And then he said, Do you like hockey? And I'm like, well, you know, yes, I love hockey. I do like hockey. Who is your favourite player? And then right away I'm like, okay, Russian player. Russian. Ovechkin!

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul wasn't actually a fan of Alexander Ovechkin, but it was the first Russian NHLer that popped in his head. Because what are the chances a Russian soldier wouldn't love one of the greatest Russian goalscorers of all time.

PAUL HUGHES: And he said, Ovechkin is shit! Ovechkin is shit player.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul can feel the goodwill and his chances of survival evaporating.

PAUL HUGHES: And I'm like, Oh, oh. Tretiak.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Vladislav Tretiak, the famed Soviet goaltender who battled Team Canada at the 1972 Summit Series.

PAUL HUGHES: And he goes, oh, Tretiak good. Tretiak good. So as soon as I said Tretiak he was quite happy and a big smile on his face. And we talked a little bit more about some hockey, and then he asked me if I smoked, and I said yes, and he goes, Okay, we will go for a smoke. We went outside and we talked some more. And he said that I have to go now. And, which, he had to go back to the field. And we shook hands and I said, thank you.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul was free to go.

PAUL HUGHES: I was ecstatic. I knew that that guy had saved my life. This guy who I thought was going to be the executioner, he was actually showing some compassion to me. It was a pretty powerful moment in my life, for sure.

DANNY KERSLAKE: But Paul's mission wasn't done. Katya still needed saving, and Paul knew he needed some sort of permit from the Russians or risk being detained again.

PAUL HUGHES: So, I got, I stopped the van, I got out. I went back and knocked on the door, and the guy came down and he just looked at me like, What the hell is wrong with you, buddy? Like, We just let you go, like. And I said, Oh, sorry. Do you have anything, paper, document or something. Stamp. And he realized what I was asking for, and he went in and grabbed that for me. And then I drove around the corner, and then it kind of just hit me. I had to pull over immediately and just go, what just happened to me?

DANNY KERSLAKE: After he pulled himself together, Paul found a place with Wi-Fi and reached Katya's mum.

YULIANA LAPIANOVA: [Foreign speech]

TRANSLATOR: As soon as there was a connection, we contacted my ex-husband and Paul to coordinate them. Ten minutes later, Paul picked them up, but it was very scary.

DANNY KERSLAKE: The girl, her father and some others jumped in the van. Paul captured a short video of Katya as mortars exploded nearby, likely fired by Russian forces.

PAUL HUGHES: Okay.

KATYA: Okay.

DANNY KERSLAKE: She gave Paul a heart melting thumbs up as they raced out of the hot zone, driving eight hours back to Kyiv and then on to a border crossing with Poland the next day, where Katya's mother was waiting for the group.

YULIANA LAPIANOVA: [Foreign speech]

TRANSLATOR: I cried for a very long time, and I was very happy because I realize how much I love my child. When I saw her, I hugged her for a really long time. I just couldn't let her go. Paul is a person with a very big heart who helped me and my child, and we are very grateful to him.

[Music: Strings]

DANNY KERSLAKE: Paul and his team at HUGS have run almost 200 missions since Katya's rescue. They help hospitals, evacuate wounded soldiers, raise money, deliver food and clothes, even install wood stoves to help people get through the harsh Ukrainian winters. HUGS does whatever is needed. I couldn't go see Paul for this story, but we are in contact daily. He sends short videos, digital postcards from the war. Things like military vehicles on city streets or drones in the night sky. But lately, missile strikes. In an attack on Kharkiv last month reports say 18 people were killed. Paul knows the risks he faces every day, but he doesn't worry much about his safety. He worries about the other Hughes on his team.

MACK HUGHES: My name is Mac Hughes.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Mac is Paul's son. He's just 21-years-old.

MAC HUGHES: I do a mix of everything from medical deliveries to evacuations, aid deliveries. I'll help a Babusya walk across the street if I need to.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Mac was drawn to Ukraine by his father's example.

MAC HUGHES: Growing up, we had, not strangers per se, but people that are in need coming and going. And we've had people stay at our house. We've gone and helped people, you know.

DANNY KERSLAKE: In Paul's tiny apartment in Kharkiv. Father and son gather around a speakerphone. I'm asking questions from back here in Canada.

DANNY KERSLAKE: I am curious, Paul, like, how do you balance that instinct as a father to protect at all costs with that other side where you support your boy in what he feels passionate about?

PAUL HUGHES: Well, I don't think about the, I don't think about the downside. It's not something that I wanted him to do, but he was very driven to do it. And, I mean, there was a selfish part of it for me too, because I missed him so much and I did want to see him. You know, my son has grown by decades in a matter of a year. I mean, he is a man. I love my son, and I would never want to put him in harm's way. In hindsight it's, we're very lucky.

MAC HUGHES: I don't think I'll ever move back to Canada full time. The adjustment will be like a torture. Just talking to people, nobody's going to understand what I'm talking about. You know? They'll think it's cool--oh, I did this, oh I did that, but they won't understand some of this stuff that I've seen, some of the stuff that I've dealt with, you know.

DANNY KERSLAKE: For Paul, his two years in Ukraine are starting to take a toll.

PAUL HUGHES: Yeah. I'll be 60 in less than five months here. I'm kind of feeling my age, Dan. A couple people have shown me some pictures of when I first showed up here and, you know, I looked lean and mean, and now I just look mean. I've definitely aged. I feel it. 700 days here working pretty well non-stop, because that was our commitment to the country, this country that we're trying to help and commitment to the people who supported us. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's a little bit of fatigue.

[Music: Instrumental]

DANNY KERSLAKE: I worry about you guys every day. And I, for one, would like to see you and Mac and have a beer somewhere and sit down and let you guys tell all your war stories. I hope that can happen someday.

PAUL HUGHES: So do I, Dan. You have no idea how much I would like to see that happen, brother. Absolutely. Absolutely. Just to give you a big hug, brother.

DANNY KERSLAKE: Let's make it happen.

PAUL HUGHES: Yeah, let's make that happen.

[Music fades up: Instrumental]

RZ: This documentary was produced by Danny Kerslake in Saskatoon with help from CBC's audio documentary unit. It first aired on The Current last month. Our thanks as well to reporter Kateryna Malo-fieieva in Ukraine and the Ukrainian Museum of Canada. And one more note: that warehouse where Paul picked up supplies before heading out on his delivery mission--it was destroyed in a Russian bombing about 48 hours after his visit. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, and this is The Current. We have a moment to let you know about something coming up here on the program this week. Brad Gagnon is a former police officer in Ottawa. For years, he has been dealing with PTSD related to events that happened on the job. He's tried many different ways to cope, but a few months ago he tried something new: MDMA, the illegal drug known as ecstasy or Molly. It is now beginning to be approved for use in therapy to treat trauma.

SOUNDCLIP

BRAD GAGNON: I don't want anybody to have the impression that this is a magic pill, where you just take something, and all your troubles go away. But this seemed like an avenue of hope for me. I'm not a recreational drug user. I never was. But I don't see it as a drug. I see it as a medicine, and I think that helped me a lot. It's actually a rather profound way to look at it because it changes the stigma around it, if you will. As opposed to me going into, you know, a dark alley, making a illicit purchase and then hiding away someplace and doing this in the dark. This was a structured method of taking a medicine in a controlled environment with a great deal of support. The best way I can describe it was an opportunity to learn about myself, to see things about myself that I was hiding away, in a safe, caring environment that was non-judgmental. It was almost like an experience of enlightenment. Essentially, what the MDMA allowed me to do was to take a box off a shelf that's been hidden, pushed away for many years, and to open that box and to explore those feelings in a safe place so you can process them and then come to terms with it. And the MDMA allowed me to see what the issue was, and now I can address it. And so, I'm continually working on myself. But I have a newfound hope that wasn't there before, because I now know I can get through this.

RZ: You'll hear more about MDMA assisted therapy this week on The Current. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. We'd like to end the show with a bit of that magic that happens when art and science collide. Let me take you to the wide-open grasslands on a cloudy day in southeastern Australia. In the distance, there are kangaroos.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds: Beeping]

WELITON MERNARIO COSTA: Are you doing? the east today? Or the north?

[Sound: Beeping]

WELITON MERNARIO COSTA: Yeah. I'm all good to the west. Yeah.

RZ: Weliton Menário Costa. He goes by Weli, is behind the wheel in a truck. He is a Brazilian-born academic who has spent three years in the field tracking the eastern grey kangaroo, studying its behaviour. The research is a collaboration with Canadians. Weli found that although each kangaroo he studied had its own personality, they would conform to their groups, something he says that happens in humans, too. To communicate those findings, he created a music video. He represented individual kangaroo personalities, with dancers, dancing in a variety of styles, from drag to samba to ballet, twirling and twerking in their own distinctive way.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: 'Kangaroo Time']

WELITON MERNARIO COSTA: If you get a ballerina or a Brazilian funk dancer who twerks, the way they move, is completely different. And as kangaroos interacted with the other, they had the direction of adjusting their behaviour to the behaviour of the others. In this case, I'm talking about the behaviour as they step.

[Music: 'Kangaroo Time']

WELITON MERNARIO COSTA: So, by bringing dances from all these styles, I want to make sure I would bring dances from Brazilian styles. That is my culture and heritage, from the queer community, that is also my community. And bring that message about diversity at the end was so important because, while the song's called ‘Kangaroo Time,’ it goes beyond my research on kangaroos. It's about the time I lived as an immigrant, the time I came out of my workspace for the first time, that I started reconnecting to my art, to my music, despite the ten years of dedication to science. So, the song itself means all those things.

[Music: 'Kangaroo Time']

RZ: The video has been described as joyful madness. Its message celebrating diversity in the human and natural world has gone viral. The project won Weli the Dance Year PHD Award, an international prize for science communication, a win for science and a win for Weli, who says he'll continue to pursue a career in music. So, hop, twirl and break out your best 'Ru' moves to wellies award winning song 'Kangaroo Time.' I'm Rebecca Zandbergen sitting in for Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening.

[Music: 'Kangaroo Time']

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Monday March 11, 2024 Full Transcript

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