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Crime Story Episode 20: Eliza Robertson

Host: Kathleen Goldhar

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The following episode contains difficult subject matter. Please take care while listening.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I'm Kathleen Goldhar. This is Crime Story. Every week, a new crime with the storyteller who knows it best.

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UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This is Paul loading the bags into Krystal's truck. Yes, we're now in the Yukon.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It's September 1990, and the Senyk family has flown in from Ontario to Carcross, Yukon.

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UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Paul, let me have a view of that truck.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It's hard to make out exactly what we're hearing on this video, but you can see Krystal Senyk standing in the back of her white pickup truck, her dad teasing her about all the mess.

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KRYSTAL SENYK: Why are you talking? I’m almost 30. Quit complaining.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I'm almost 30! A smiling Krystal cracks before getting into the driver's seat. The next video cuts to Krystal's cabin, a place she built all by herself on two and a half acres of farmland. It's absolutely beautiful and remote. Carcross is about 75 kilometres or nearly an hour's drive from Whitehorse.

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UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What have we got in here, Kristal?

KRYSTAL SENYK: We’ve got five different kinds of tomatoes, we've got beans.

Two men talking: Oh, Phil, oh, look at this. You just walk in and you pick a… Oh, yeah. Wait a minute, Paul. This is a crystal tomato. You got it.

[laughter]

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The mood in these videos is clearly happy. Krystal is so excited to show her family around, and her dad's pride is written all over his face. But a couple of years later, all that happiness would end. Because as generous as Krystal was as a host, she was an even better friend to her best friend Colleen, because when Colleen needed help leaving her abusive husband, Krystal jumped right in. And in doing so, Krystal became the outlet for his violent threats.

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ELIZA ROBERTSON: He said the hunt is on, and then he said that he is on his way.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: On March 1st, 1992, those threats became all too real. Krystal was found dead in her cabin. And Colleen's husband, Ronald Bax, disappeared without a trace.

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ELIZA ROBERTSON: I couldn't stop thinking about Krystal, and I couldn't stop thinking about the story.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Three decades later, Eliza Robertson reopened the case. Her book, I Got a Name, tells Krystal’s story and takes us on a cross-country journey to find Ronald Bax, all the while exposing a system that too often fails to protect women. And one note, Colleen is a pseudonym we're using to protect her privacy.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Eliza Robertson, welcome to Crime Story.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Thank you so much, Kathleen. It's a pleasure to be here.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So can you tell me about how Colleen and Krystal knew each other?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Yeah. So they were old friends. You know, and we spoke to other people who knew the two of them, and they would describe them almost as having their own language. People had said that when they were together in a room, it was almost like everyone else disappeared. They had their own kind of vortex and way of being with each other and speaking with each other. Krystal was like an aunt to Colleen's two children, so she would take them to daycare if it was needed or she would take them to the clinic if, you know, someone had a sore throat. And in moments where Colleen needed a place to stay because her marriage with Ronald Bax was not safe for her or the children, then Krystal would be one person who could offer her that place to stay. She was a very good friend.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And what did you learn about Krystal herself? Like who was she? What did she do? What were her passions?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Krystal was quite a singular person, especially in that era of the early 90s in Whitehorse / Carcross, where she actually lived. So she worked as an engineer for the federal government. She also was very handy. So one of her passions in life was renovating this old cabin that she bought. I think it was in disrepair when it entered her hands. And she just spent years of her life renovating it largely herself, but also with the support of her brother and neighbours and anyone who wanted to chip in. She was also a musician and a painter. She just had so many different facets to her. She loved music. She would invite people around to her house and they would all, you know, listen to music together or play music together. It just sounds like she had a lot of vitality and effervescence about her.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I lived in Whitehorse for about a year and a half in the late 90s, and she sounds like she would fit in perfectly.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Yeah, exactly.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: She sounds like so many people who live there. But how does Ronald Bax then fit into this picture?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: So Bax is he was Krystal's best friend's husband. So Krystal's best friend Colleen was married with Ronald Bax. They were together in the late 80s. And when Krystal moved to the territory a few years after Colleen moved to the territory, something happened. We don't know the details, but something happened that had put them at odds with each other. They'd actually gone on a hunting trip together. And all we know is that when they came back from the hunting trip, their relationship was never the same again. This is Krystal and Bax. But that would have been in the late 80s. And so we're looking at five or 10 years of that resentment building and thickening. And he actually propagated rumours at the time that they had had a romantic relationship, which has never been substantiated.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That Bax and Krystal had a relationship or Krystal and Colleen?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: No, that Krystal and Colleen had a relationship. And again, that was never substantiated, but that flavour and that distaste has always been also in the backdrop of the story. When I say distaste, I mean the distaste for what was rumoured to be a potentially homosexual relationship, which, again, there's no evidence to suggest that. I think they were just close friends. But it's one of the excuses that people had levied at the time for why this murder happened.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Tell me more about Ronald Bax. What do you know about him and his history of violence both with Colleen and maybe before?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: So Bax himself is a lot like anybody, I suppose. But he's a diverse and a varied figure. He was a sculptor. His specialty was creating these bronze figures of wildlife, of animals in the wild. And that's partly inspired by the other part of his location that he really devoted his life to, which was spending time in the wilderness. He was an outfitters guide, so he would take wealthy businessman out into the bush and go hunting. You know, he was a family man, for all intents and purposes. And I do want to mention that because I think it's really a mistake to perceive abusers as simply monsters. They are deeply human. And that's partly why intimate partner violence is so pervasive. So he, you know, he was a father. They had two boys. You know, people really liked him. Many people really liked him in the community. At the same time, he was also in a circle of friends that could be very macho, for lack of a better word. And he had certainly a possessive streak, more than a possessive streak, and he was violent.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: How did that manifest in their marriage?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: So Bax was very jealous, very possessive. I do believe he was also physically aggressive, and she did not feel safe within that partnership.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And so she did tell Bax that she was leaving him.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Yeah. They were separating, and then Colleen was wanting to file for custody. And in the weeks leading up to that, both Colleen and Krystal knew that this might create a flashpoint of rage for Bax, that this request for custody could actually create a crisis point. And so knowing this and because of the threats and the intimidation that Krystal herself had already received, in the lead up before the custody was going to be requested, she actually decided to not stay on her own in her cabin in Carcross. She stayed with a friend above his store for I believe one or two weeks. And then she actually went to Disneyland for a week, which was a trip that was long, long planned. But she decided to time it for that week because that was the week that Colleen would be requesting custody.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Can we back up just a little bit? Can you explain to me a little bit more about the threats towards Krystal? What was she hearing? How did that happen?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: I believe that Krystal was personally intimidated by him. It seems that he could have been harassing her by phone. From what I understand, he was also just physically aggressive and intimidating in-person if, say, they crossed paths at the store or they saw each other in town. I think also, she knew him well enough to know that he was an angry man, and also because of his work, because he had a collection of guns. And, you know, I imagine she's also… other behaviour from Bax suggests that he could be erratic impulsive. She just did not feel at ease. I wish I knew the ins and outs of it, but short of talking to Krystal, I don't.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So what happened?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: So the night that Krystal died, Colleen had… they were both actually for a matter of hours, they were both in the shelter, in a women's shelter because Bax had levied a threat against, the threat was general threat. The threat could have been against either of them or both of them, in fact.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What did he say?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: He said the hunt is on, and then he said that he is on his way. At least this is what is recorded or what was remembered from 30 years ago. And he had delivered that through a mutual friend, who then called them and warned them, and also called the police because she was so worried. And police arrived on the scene, they talked to police. Krystal was offered a place to stay that night, but she wanted to go home. She asked the police to check out her house before she got there just to make sure that it was safe. And there are a number of excuses that were offered as to why. The police could not escort Krystal home or check out her cabin before she arrived. They said they could not do anything unless he had done something wrong. So to their mind, this group did not count as a form of harassment or as an aggression. At least not one that was perceived as dangerous enough to call for action. They said repeatedly that they could drive around and search for him, but they wouldn't be able to actually do anything, and it probably wouldn't do much good. That was a phrase they repeated multiple times as well. It probably won't do much good.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It's sad how many times, you know, I've done many stories of domestic violence. Sadly, a lot of them ending in the death of a wife or the death of a partner. And so many times, you hear that the police and people in authority actually knew this was going on and said the same thing. They can't do anything about it.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Yeah, I would agree. And that's one of the things that I felt the most angry about when researching this story and investigating this case. It was the fact that according to Krystal's friends and family, so according to her close friends and also her family members that knew this violence was going on, she had gone into police at least once and possibly multiple times in the weeks leading up to the murder because she didn't feel safe because of Bax’s intimidations, whatever they specifically were. And there was no record that was ever kept of that. And even after they had this witnessed conversation at the shelter, so both Colleen and Krystal spoke to police that evening, that was something that verifiably happened, there was still no record that was kept of it, because the next day, Colleen was going in to lay charges because of the threats. She didn't know at that time that Krystal was murdered. The police couldn't find any record of it.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But on March 1st, 1992, Krystal is at her home in Carcross in the cabin. Having lived in the Yukon myself, I know that Carcross is pretty remote and most of the homes are pretty isolated. It's a choice to live in Carcross, to be in that kind of a place. Bax shows up at her house. And can you tell me what happened?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Yeah. So I think it's likely that he was already waiting for her by the time she showed up at the house. Based on the evidence that has been shared by RCMP, they've kept a lot of information pretty close to their chest, but it seems based on the blood spatter and how and where she was found, that she was entering the home when there was an altercation between them. Or, again, I don't know if she tried to resist or if she tried to fight back or protect herself in any way or if he just shot her as soon as she entered, but she was killed. She was killed then on her return, and then Bax disappeared. So he has never been seen or heard from again. His body has never been found. The firearm, in fact, has never been found, and it remains an unresolved case to this day. And that we know it was him who did it, but he has never been brought to justice.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What do police think happened to Bax?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: The theory that police have favoured after years of this case not being resolved is that likely he committed suicide shortly after the murder. And that was with the criminal psychologist going over the files and making a judgement based on Bax’s character. I think it's very possible. The Yukon is, as I say multiple times in the book, it's a vast territory. It would certainly be easy to kill yourself and for your body never to be found. But what I noticed is talking to people who knew Bax well, talking to his former friends, is that they did not… they didn't believe it. They didn't find it coherent with his other personality traits, namely his ego. And because he had the skills to survive on his own in the bush, a lot of people believe that he got himself across the border, whether he hiked across the border or got a lift. So Carcross is about 40 minutes from the U.S. border.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: In Alaska. Yeah.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: In Alaska. Yeah. And he could have from there taken a boat down to the lower states. This was in the early 90s, so we didn't need a passport at that time. It wasn't uncommon for other criminals to get away that way. People who, for example, had stolen something, they would just get on one of those ferries, cross the border, get on one of those ferries. Flip around was the phrase used. So just change their appearance a little and they'd be gone. And in fact, the border wasn't even always manned or patrolled at night. So he had about close to a 12 hour lead because her body wasn't found until 10 or 11 a.m. the next day., and the murder happened around midnight the night before. So yeah, it remains a mystery. But I do want to acknowledge that the RCMP's position is that there is a 70% chance that he's committed suicide.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: 70%. Where did they get that number from?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: That came from that criminal psychologist.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Oh, I see.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Where he got that number, I don't know.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So decades go by and you enter this story. How did that happen?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: So I was living at the time in England. But my mum still had our family home in Victoria, and I was visiting my mum in 2015. And I came home one day and there was an envelope on our front porch with my name on it. So I opened the envelope, and inside were two pages of writing. It was kind of a stream of consciousness, very dense, actually quite poetic writing that were taken off of, I later learned, Krystal's work computer. And along with these two pages of writing, there was a note from the neighbour that I had grown up beside, saying that my neighbour Lynn had worked with Krystal, and after the murder, they cleaned out her computer, and for whatever reason, one of their colleagues had given my neighbour these pages of writing from Krystal. And she'd held on to them. But, you know, a couple decades later, she's cleaning out her office and she finds them again. And she just doesn't want to hang on to them any longer, but she doesn't feel right recycling them. So she writes in her note to me that she's not sure why, but my name just kind of kept coming into her head, so she left her pages of writing and that contextual note on my porch. And for me, this has absolutely no context. I had actually seen my neighbour a couple days earlier, but she didn't mention this. So I was gobsmacked. But that's how I encountered the story. It literally landed on my doorstep.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And what made you decide to move forward with it? I mean, you could have just got this yourself and read it and said, okay, now I'm going to go back to my writing fiction.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Well, and in fact, that's what I did at first, because when I found this story, I was still doing my PhD. I had a novel with a deadline, you know, but I couldn't stop thinking about Krystal, and I couldn't stop thinking about the story. And because this truly does not happen every day or really any day where a writer just gets almost hand delivered a story like this that feels so, so momentous and so unresolved, I just took it very seriously at the same time. It did, I write this in the book, but it did feel like a call. It felt like something that I couldn't ignore. So even though I did actually have to go back to England and continue with the other things I was working on, I never forgot about it. I knew I wanted to turn over, turn over some rocks and do more research. I wasn't sure at the time what form that would take. Maybe it would be an article, an essay. Maybe I just do some research. And if it led to nothing, that's all. But I just needed to look into it further. And then the more I looked into it, the deeper I got.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You got so deep you went all the way to the deep South. You went to Mississippi.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: That's right.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Why Mississippi? What was that about?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Yeah, that was another strange detour along this journey. So though I was not actively investigating the case immediately, I was from time to time googling Krystal's name. And on one of these occasions in 2016, I found an article that was published in the Clarksdale Press Register. And in the article, it had written about a woman who lived in Rowena Lara, which is about 20 minutes away from Clarksdale. So the woman lived with her husband in a trailer, and they were lodging a man, a stranger who turned up in town a couple of years earlier. And he, and the woman, rather, had always found the stranger a little… there was something off about him. She didn't fully trust him. And so based on those instincts, one day when he had left the house, she went through his backpack, and she says that she found an information card. So it wasn't government ID exactly, but it was some kind of card with his name on it. And though this was not the name he was going by, the information card had the name Ronald Jeffrey Bax. So she googled the name Ronald Bax, and she found out that this was a wanted man in Canada. And she called Crime Stoppers. Yeah. So that's essentially how my path led to Mississippi. I ended up contacting the journalist who wrote this article. I did as much research as I could from Montreal where I was living, but what I noticed and what was proved correct after I went down there is that people are pretty tight lipped if you're just trying to cold call folks and make, you know, random inquiries. But when you're there in-person, at least my experience was that going down to Mississippi myself was the only way where I could get people to actually talk and actually share information about this individual who had this so-called information card with Ronald Bax’s name on it.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Did the police check it out? What did they discover?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: The police did check it out. So after this woman called Crime Stoppers, the local sheriff arrested this man. They detained him for three days while they checked his fingerprints. RCMP was contacted, and the lead investigator at the time did personally interview the journalist, as well as the woman who had found the information card. Eventually, it came up that the fingerprints of this individual did not match Ronald Bax’s, so he was released. And I could have left it at that, but I had just been reading too many news stories about the technology that is available to change your fingerprints actually very convincingly if you have the money, which, you know, I don't know that Ronald Bax would have had the money, but who knows? And it just kept… it was just still sitting in my mind as something that was another, yet another unresolved potential threat in this story, and I wanted to get to the bottom of it.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Do you think it was Ronald Bax?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Going down there, I was convinced. And I felt that way because, well, I mean, there were a few reasons, but one of them is that when I showed his mugshot around to people who had known him, like I watched their faces flash. They said, I'm using their words, that it was carbon copy of the same guy, just a little, a little older, that his hairline receded. But people, you know, I was talking to people who didn't have stakes in the game. They weren't implicated in the story around the man and his wife. And they had, you know, they're no longer together. There were some marital issues, so I can understand that maybe there might be motives one way or another for there to be untruths or embellishments. But I guess in speaking with other people who had no skin in the game at all, they were the ones who used the phrase like carbon copy. It's the same guy. There were so many synchronicities going down there that it really did give me pause. I mean, starting with the fact that how does a Canadian cold case from 30 years earlier wind up in rural Mississippi? I couldn't understand how this woman landed on Bax’s name short of just trawling through lists of North American wanted individuals and finding someone that bore a physical resemblance to the lodger, but that didn't really make sense to me. I would say that my conclusions now, I have more information to pull from, but it's still something that is this like gnawing mystery that I still feel quite bewildered about. And it remains… yeah, it continues to baffle me, honestly.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And he told people that he had a similar back story to Bax, right, that he was from Alaska, travelling south to meet his sister in Florida. And those sort of things matched Bax’s story too, right?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Certainly, the Alaska detail. And also, people had described him as I think he was from Canada, but he was living in Alaska. And so things like that, I was like, okay, that's strange. Around the same time period he was supposed to be in Alaska, it was proposed that he was working on the Alaska like king crab fishing ships. And I could imagine that Bax, someone with his skill set might be doing something like that as under the table work. You never know. But certainly, the area, the region made sense and the physical description. Bax was not a tall man. And this man from people's memories, he was around the same height. So around 5/9, same eye colour. Again, the physical, the physical descriptions were matching. Yeah, there were a lot of uncanny commonalities between them.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Did you ever try to track down this person named Clinton Hill?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: We didn't have any run ins with Clinton Hill, but it's possible that he's actually still living in the area, even if he's out of state. So that's the other interesting thing about specifically that area is it's a tri state area. So Tennessee is very close to Mississippi, and that's also very close to Arkansas.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So back to Krystal. You did speak to Krystal's family. Tell me who you spoke to and what they had to say about this to you.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: So we worked actually really closely. It was more than just, you know, one isolated interview. We worked really closely with everyone in Krystal’s surviving family who was capable of speaking to us. So Krystal's father, at the time that we started speaking with Krystal's family, he had dementia, and then within a year or two, actually ended up passing away. So we weren't able to speak with him. But Philipson was his name, and he was very, very keenly involved in the case. He and Krystal were exceptionally close. They had a really deep and beautiful relationship, and he was very active in calling the police, following any tip or lead. And if they weren't updating him, he would make it a point to call to actually ask for those updates. And we had documented evidence of that for, you know, for years. So he would keep these journals, these meticulous journals of every phone call, all of the potential tips and leads. We have journals tracking this up to, I think the most recent one was 2014. Maybe it was 2011. It was anyway around that time. Fairly recently. And then that was the time when his dementia started to take hold. And he wasn't really able to keep up with that, but he was very involved. And his brother, Paul Senyk, who is still in Ontario, and Paul's son, so Krystal's cousin, Jay, so we went to Ontario. We spent some time with Jay and Paul. And then also, we spent some time with Krystal's brother, Gord, who lives in Alberta, and we spent an afternoon with him and his partner and looked over old yearbooks and just talked. We spent hours just talking, and it's really emotional, actually. So but with both of these two surviving family members, the ones who are more of the younger generation, they're still so devastated about this loss.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Who does the family place as responsible for Krystal's death other than Bax himself?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Well, it's an interesting question because this is another thing that I observe in the book, is short of having anyone actually held responsible, actually publicly held responsible through the means of a trial and then through somebody serving a criminal sentence, it just seems like everyone was pointing fingers at everyone. And there was a lot of rage. There was a lot of anger. Philip had a lot of anger. So Krystal's father had a lot of anger, and there was almost no one he didn't point fingers at at one time. But to name some examples, he was really angry about how the RCMP dealt with it, saying that there were certain lead investigators that he had a very close relationship with and he had a lot of respect for. So I think that's important to name as well. And as much as the police's responses to Krystal's fears was inadequate and left her unsafe, and this is part of the story that I find most troubling today. As much as that was the case before the murder, as soon as there was a manhunt, they did pour all of their resources in. But I guess my overarching point is in the short of anyone being held accountable, there's just been so much rage and so much blame.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And lastly, in your book, you talk about how since getting into this research and doing this work in this book, you sort of see Krystal all around you still.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Mm hmm.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Can you tell me a bit about that?

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Yeah. I mean, this is one of the aspects of pursuing this book that I find difficult to put words to, because in some ways, this is my own relationship with Krystal. And I do want to acknowledge that I never met Krystal. You know, I was four when she was murdered. And so my relationship with Krystal is imagined. But that for me doesn't make it less weighty or less grave. Or there's a real connection that I have felt with Krystal that I think might be inevitable when you spend years of your life gathering every fragment of another person. So I spent years meticulously seeking out photos, seeking out home video footage, seeking out interviews from everyone who knew her, every piece of the story, every piece of just who she was as a person, which sounds like she was just an exceptional and unique and also extraordinarily kind individual. And there's something about doing all of this intensive research that's orbiting around one individual and never quite, well, never meeting the one individual at the centre that I found myself subconsciously before I catch myself, I found myself thinking again and again, oh, I can't wait to meet Krystal. Like it'll be so nice to talk to her finally. And of course, she's the one person that I cannot talk to. But there were, there are parallels between her and me, I think, that and perhaps have contributed to that sense of identification. And I, you know, I want to acknowledge maybe it's an over identification. But when I first started to research this story, I was the same age as she was when she was killed. So she was killed weeks before her 30th birthday, and I was, no, I turned 30 also in the middle of researching this, this book. And, you know, I've also served as a support person for others who have been in abusive situations. So there are dynamics between her story and my own that I connected with, and she just seemed like an incredible person. I wanted on a very genuine level, I wanted to get to know her. And yeah, there's just something about the process of spending years of your life investigating someone or looking into someone and trying to put the pieces of them back together that you can't not but create meaning from it and a connection to that person that you're reassembling, even if that's not exactly the person who was alive, because I never actually got to meet her.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I think that is one of the things that really draws me to stories like yours and in this new, as they say, you know, true crime boom era, is that there's a lot of us working towards making sure that we tell the stories of the women especially, sadly, they end up being the women, that should be the centre of these stories. And I think it's you're part of a group of women writers and podcasters and reporters who have done that really well, and I appreciate the work, and I appreciate you bringing Krystal to us through the book.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Oh, thank you. That really means a lot.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Well, thanks for joining us.

ELIZA ROBERTSON: Thank you very much for giving me the time and space to talk about this book.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. We drop a new episode every Monday. You can get our next episode a week early on CBC Podcasts’ YouTube channel or by subscribing to the CBC Podcasts’ true crime channel on Apple Podcasts. In addition to Early Access, subscribers to our true crime channel also listen ad free. Crime Story is written and hosted by me. Our producers are Alexis Green and Sarah Claydon. Sound design by Graham MacDonald. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner. Our video producer is Evan Aagaard. Our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Executive producers are Cesil Fernandes and Chris Oke. Tanya Springer is CBC Podcasts’ senior manager, and Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts.

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Transcript: Crime Story, Episode 20

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