Anastasia: All the bets are on Jessie Fleming being named the next captain of Canada's women's national soccer team. And she just moved a little closer to home after three years with Chelsea. She's heading for the Portland Thorns in one of the highest paid transfers in American women's soccer history.

The London, Ontario native is leaving the U.K. after winning three Women's Super League titles, three women's FA cups and a League Cup.

Now she's reuniting with her Olympic gold team-mates Janine Beckie and Christine Sinclair. She's been lighting up the soccer pitch since she was 15, and a decade later Jessie Fleming is only just coming into her prime. It's.

It's Player's Own Voice.

I'm Anastasia Buscis.

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Jessie Fleming. How are you doing?

Jessie Fleming: I'm good. Yeah. Good. How are you?

Anastasia: I'm great. I mean, there's some big news floating around the sports world, of course. You're en route to the Portland Thorns!

Jessie Fleming: Yeah. Very, very exciting. It's certainly been a hectic last week or so, but I'm definitely very excited to be heading to Portland.

Anastasia: What goes through your mind when you hear of, you know, a transfer?

Jessie Fleming: A lot of things. You know, saying goodbye to Chelsea FC was always going to be difficult. I was able to make some really good friendships there and had a really positive experience at the club. So I think it's a lot of mixed emotions, not wanting to leave one place, but also feeling really excited to start anew somewhere else. So yeah, I would say, I would say mixed emotions, but I think once I was able to get to Portland and get to walk around the city a bit and kind of get my bearings, definitely more excitement. But yeah, I'll always have a place in my heart for Chelsea. And, hopefully we'll get to stay in close contact with some of my friends there.

Anastasia: Absolutely. And there was a Canadian contingency of course on Chelsea with Kadeisha (Buchanan) and Ashley (Lawrence). Now you are joining Sinc (christine sinclair) and Janine (Beckie). That's exciting! Like, Canada Strong.

Jessie Fleming: Yeah. It's always great seeing Canadians at these big clubs. And I think for me, it's always nice being in a place where there's people that I know well and who have known me for a number of years. So I definitely I think that also helped with with my transition to Portland, just having a few familiar faces to say hi to.

Anastasia: Oh, absolutely. And it's a friendly city. Great books, great coffee, great bike riding, everything. Do you ever think, though: After all this, I'm still going to be passing to Sinc?

Jessie Fleming: Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty excited. I definitely thought that Vancouver was going to be my last game with Sincy and just feel very lucky to get the opportunity to have another year training and playing together. And, yeah, I just think it's, you know, it's very lucky timing. And there's only so many Canadian players to have gotten to play with her, and I'm excited to get some more time with her.

Anastasia: I feel like people have been comparing you to her for well over a decade, and you're only, what, 25? So a very long time. How did that, feel when you were younger coming up, being consistently compared to the greatest of all time?

Jessie Fleming: I think any comparison is a bit dangerous. But I mean, of course it's such an honour too for that to even be a conversation point. But yeah, I mean, Sinc us Sinc and I am me. And while there are some similarities between us, I think we're also distinct individuals and we play different positions. And I think the both of us kind of just like to do our thing and get on with things. But yeah, I mean, of course it's such an honour. I think for me, I'm also trying to, you know, figure out exactly who I am as an individual and my best way of, you know, playing and helping lead the national team.

Anastasia: It's hard to figure out who you are as an individual, though. Are you doing the work?

Jessie Fleming: Yeah. For sure. It's definitely hard. I've gotten more of an appreciation for that as I've gotten a little bit older, but for sure. Definitely trying to do the work. I mean, I'm really into reading and have read a lot of books about sports psychology and, I really like to listen to a lot of podcasts. And, definitely, I'm always asking myself questions about what I'm doing here on this planet, and you know, how I can be a better version of myself and a better sister, better kid to my parents.

And, yeah, I think I was lucky in that I had a few coaches early on in my career who talked a lot about just continuous self-improvement and how there is just kind of a larger person to the player. So I think just having exposure to that at a young age kind of got me curious. And, ever since, I feel like I've just been encouraged to ask myself those questions and I think just keep discovering myself. And every year you kind of think, oh, this year I'll get to this place,that feels like an end point. But I think I'm starting to realise that there's never going to be an end point, it's kind of just a continuous process.

Anastasia: Honestly. So I'm 34 this year, and it wasn't until this year where I was like, I'm a grown up and I'm really comfortable in my own skin. Yeah, it's inspiring but also frustrating when you're like, really? Like, I'm still learning these lessons?

Jessie Fleming: For sure yeah, I feel like popular culture maybe makes you think that it's a lot easier than it is, but yeah, I'm trying to trying to lean into that process and just enjoy it along the way.

Anastasia: So I've got a million questions to ask ,but I am interested because you were super good at cross-country running as well, which -barf! - to me. Like literally every time I raced I would throw up. But what helped you choose soccer over running? Because you could have had a tremendous career there too. Do you ever think back: I wish I was an individual athlete or, you know, parts of your personality that you're figuring out now that, you, of course, are aa leader,and you wear the armband.

Jessie Fleming: Yeah. I don't think I've ever had the thought. Gosh, I wish I was an individual athlete. I think I feel really lucky to have my team-mates. And I think being a part of that, part of a team is such a good source of motivation at times when maybe, yeah, you're low on motivation or questioning things, it's easy to look to your team-mates and know that there's other people working hard for the same goal.

So I don't think I've ever had that thought that I wish I was an individual sport athlete. But yeah, both my parents were long distance runners and my brother and sister are as well. So it's kind of runs in the family, but. I can't actually remember what made me make that decision. I think I started playing for the youth teams when it was kind of getting difficult to do both running and soccer just because of the different like physical attributes that the two sports demanded.

And just time commitment. I didn't have enough time to do both anymore. So yeah, I think there was a few events that happened that kind of nudged me in the direction of soccer. And I mean, I've always really loved the sport and and been really passionate about players in the sport and watching the sport. So, I think it just felt kind of normal. I don't remember it being a big existential decision. I think it kind of just slipped into place. Yeah.

Anastasia: Well, that's good because you were like 15, right? Like, I would hate to hear that you're having an existential crisis about the future of your life. But you are so respected by your team-mates, and I don't mean to embarrass you, but I am going to read this quote from Janine Beckie. On TSN she said, I know Jessie would absolutely hate me talking about this, but I'm really proud of the leader that she's grown into. Jessie's very humble. To a fault. I think she doesn't give herself enough credit. Do you think there's truth to that? Do not give yourself enough credit?

Jessie Fleming: Yeah. I mean, I think like going back to what we were talking about earlier. It's something that I'm learning and still feel like I have a lot of growth to do as a leader and as a player. Yeah, I would definitely. I grew up in a household where I was taught to just work hard and kind of keep your head down, which I don't think is a bad thing, but, yeah, I can see Janine's point.

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Anastasia: What was the biggest lesson that you learned from the last World Cup?

Jessie Fleming: Tough question.

I think I have more of an appreciation for just how far the game has come. I think the margins in the women's game are a lot tighter than they used to be. And there's a lot of luck and circumstance involved in success in a tournament. I think, yeah, just when you look at a few of the injuries or issues that we had with our team before the tournament.

I just think the margins are so tight and every team in that tournament, were a difficult opposition in one way or another. I think in the past, you could have predicted who would progress out of the group stage pretty easily. But even when you look to other groups, some of the other countries that didn't make it into the group stage or upsets we saw in later rounds, I think it just speaks to how much more competitive the women's game is getting.

I just think like the luck and circumstance that you need to do well in a tournament and sometimes you don't get that timing right. I think at the time it felt like the end of the world. And, you know, obviously it was a very disappointing result in the tournament for us. But I think just, yeah. Appreciation and respect for the other countries, it just wasn't our turn that summer and trying to ask ourselves the right questions and figure out what went wrong and how we can make it our turn this summer.

Anastasia: You are cool as a cucumber when you take those penalty kicks. Really. In Tokyo, especially under that white hot spotlight. What was going through your brain when you were about to take those shots?

Jessie Fleming: We had practised penalties a lot as a team, so I think we were all well prepared and I would have backed anyone on our team to to step up in that moment. But yeah, we had spoken about it as a group quite a bit. And also kind of the mental physiological side of those high pressure situations and just the benefit of taking a few deep breaths and how that is able to kind of ease your system.

So it was something that we had spoken about in practice a lot as a group. And I think that helped us all. We had so many different players step up in a very high pressure moment. So I think that kind of just speaks to our preparation more than anything, to be honest.

Anastasia: Did you know the ball was going into the back of the net before you kicked?

Jessie Fleming: No. You can't know that. There is a certain degree of luck. And I think part of the mindset around penalties is that you have to accept the fact that the keeper could make a great save. My job is to put it on frame and make the keeper have to make a really difficult save. But you know, at the end of the day, there was always a chance that the keepers were going to save it. And you kind of have to you have to accept that part of the game.

Anastasia: See from my vantage point, though, I was like, that's going in the back of the net. I just knew it. It felt like fate, I don't know. There was something in your walk or your face like: oh, she's going to score.

Jessie Fleming: I definitely felt confident. But again, it doesn't matter how confident you are, there's always a chance that keeper's going to make a great save and guess the right way. So I do think being able to accept that and knowing that your team-mates have your back, regardless of what happens, is a big part of the reason why we were all able to step up and take those penalties with confidence and not feeling like if we missed the penalty, that the whole team was going to be mad at us or that we'd let someone down.

I think that's such a special part of our group, is that we had each other's back, and regardless of someone making a mistake, we were always going to be there to to pick that person up. So I think that was a massive part in the confidence in our group in those high pressure situations.

Anastasia: Yeah. Just beautiful. I got to admit, I'm super jealous of you because I think you went to my dream school, UCLA. That was my dream growing up. Why did you choose UCLA? And how did that help shape you?

Jessie Fleming: It was a bit of a weird process choosing UCLA. Originally, when I had kind of written out my list of, attributes at universities that I wanted to go to, I'd written out that I wanted to be, I think, less than seven hour drive from home. So originally I was in schools on the East Coast, and then, they had sent a letter to, to my high school and weird situation, but I actually had a friend who I grew up hanging out with in Canada who lived in California, and she was like, you have to come out and check out California.

And so, my dad and I ended up going out and visiting UCLA and as soon as I got on the campus and was able to speak to some players there, I think I was actually able to speak to Sam Mewis about her experience at UCLA. So, it wasn't it wasn't a tough sell once I was on the campus and I got to speak to a few people and, like you said, it was an incredible experience. And I feel really lucky to have gotten to to live there and go to school there for a few years. And, yeah, I still have a bunch of good friends from those days. And. Hopefully we'll get to return and say hi to the campus at some point.

Anastasia: Yeah, the campus is so gorgeous and Los Angeles is just a fun city. You know, it's La-La land. Like, there really is a vibe there.

Jessie Fleming: Yeah. For sure. I have very good memories of going to watch sunsets at the beach, with my friends. And we had this tradition that the last day of exam week, we would always get up and go do a hike to see the sunrise, and then we would go get coffee. So, yeah, I definitely have fond memories of that city. And it is a very cool city. But I also think that it's kind of easy to get stuck in, like the UCLA Los Angeles bubble. It's not really the real world. So I think it's good to get out of there.

Anastasia: Well, you're going to Portland, buddy. You're not going to be in the LA bubble

Jessie Fleming: Yeah.

Anastasia: No. And you're a tremendous photographer, too. Oh. That look on your face. Come on! No, you're a good photographer. When did that passion start to rear its head?

Jessie Fleming: I'm not exactly sure when it started. A couple of my friends and I in high school always had cameras and would go out and take pictures together. And then a few Christmases ago, my grandma gave me one of my grandpa's old film cameras and so I kind of got a little bit more into film in recent years. I'm not really sure why, but I've always been the the photographer on our family vacations. It's always something I've enjoyed.

Anastasia: I'm not… even my producer was like wow. she's got a real eye. Is there an artistic side to you?

Jessie Fleming: A little bit. My brother is quite artistic. My brother and my mom are both really artistic. So, I definitely grew up following my brother around and wanting to do whatever he did. He was always very good at art. When he was little, he wanted to be an architect. And so I was always drawing up plans and we were always doing that stuff together. Yeah. We used to draw, like, chalk cities on the road in front of our house, and then we would ride around the chalk city on our scooters and pretend that we were carpenters or different people in the city. So I think a lot of my influence, for my arty side or why, I picked materials engineering has to do with my brother. And just growing up, being the younger sister to an older brother, I think I just followed him around a lot and wanted to be like him.

Anastasia: Yeah. Material engineering. Good for you. Is that what you want to do after soccer? I mean, you are so young you don't need to know what you want to do with your life, but have you flirted with what's next?

Jessie Fleming: I think that's something I'm also trying to figure out. I actually also did a minor in environmental science. And so I think as my university years went on, that's something that I became more and more interested in. So nowadays I take the odd course on Coursera. They offer like one off university courses. And so I'm definitely pretty interested in urban planning and urban farming, food sustainability. So kind of trying to figure out exactly what I'm interested in, what I want to do. But yeah, something at the cross-section of environmental science and materials engineering would be my dream, but I'm not really sure what that looks like.

Anastasia: How much math did you have to do in engeneering school?

Jessie Fleming: Too much math.

Anastasia: Nightmare material.

Jessie Fleming: It was very, very challenging. I don't want to do much more math in my life.

Anastasia: I can do certain skills, but if you put me in front of a math equation, I will have a panic attack. It's bad. So you have time on the side to take an extra university course or whatnot. But what do you do off the pitch? What relaxes you?

Jessie Fleming: I'm definitely still interested in trying to take those university courses. I'm also, I've definitely gotten to to read more since graduating from university, just having more spare time. I love exploring the cities that I'm in. Have tried to get more into cooking, and I've taken a bunch of cooking classes with my mom. She always did a lot of things homemade in our house when I was growing up and so did my grandmother. And so I have been wanting to learn some of those skills. And then both my mom and grandmother were also pretty avid about sewing. So they were always making things themselves. I'm slowly working on my first, like, patchwork pillow.

So, trying to follow in the footsteps of my mom and grandma. I think when I was younger, I thought that they were weird, but maybe I didn't appreciate how cool they were. And as I've gotten older, I feel I've definitely gotten more of an appreciation for the music that my parents listened to. And, just some of the things that my mom made when I was younger.

Anastasia: Agreed. What's, what's your favourite music that they've introduced you to?

Jessie Fleming: They're massive Tragically Hip fans. So when I was younger, I thought it was, just weird and annoying. But now my brother, sister and I love the Tragically Hip, so.

Anastasia: So I completely agree. Now that I'm getting older, I'm like, my parents have always been the coolest people ever. Like they wouldn't, they didn't follow the fashions or the trends. So I always was like, oh my God, mom, dad. But now they're literally the coolest people that have ever walked the face of the earth.

Jessie Fleming: Yeah.

Anastasia: All right. Well, if you get bored, I wouldn't mind, like some patchwork. I could use a doily of some kind. If you need. If you need another client. What are you most excited for to get down to Portland.

Jessie Fleming: I'm excited to be back on the West Coast. I've heard great things about the city. I've heard that they get a lot of good indie concerts. There's a really good bike culture, coffee culture in the city. Pretty good hiking. Really close to the city. So, yeah, I think I'm just kind of excited for the reputation that the city has. And with respect to the soccer, the club has such a close relationship with the community and with their fans and that's something that I'm really excited toget to experience and be a part of.

I think they had like an average attendance of 20,000 maybe. Don't quote me on that, but the numbers that they get from week to week are incredible. So I mean, I'm really excited to be a part of that community. And I feel like the people there are very passionate about their club. And I think part of it is just because they, they don't have those, NFL or MLB teams in that city. I think it's just the, NBA team and then the two soccer teams. So, yeah. Yeah, I think that's pretty unique to Portland compared to other major cities in the US. And yeah, just really excited to be a part of that.

Anastasia: I got to go to a game, last year, and the atmosphere was just so electric. And then I thought like, wow, this day cannot get any better. And I was sitting in a section where they just gave us free hotdogs. So it was like the best day of all time!

You know, the atmosphere is next to none. You're going to just love it. But when you are prepping for a professional club though, do you think, oh, how is this going to affect my international play? Or do you see synergies between professional teams and international play?

Jessie Fleming: Definitely a little bit. I mean, I think a lot of my decision to move to Portland was to to continue to grow as a player and be the best player I can be for the national team. You know, part of that means, playing a similar position that I play for the national team more consistently, which I think I'll be able to get to do with Portland. So yeah, you definitely look for a club that there's some crossover with the national team. And I think also a club, you know, as far as that leagues go, it's one of the teams that tries to play more in terms of possession. And that's something that is important to me, and I'm excited to be a part of. So yeah, you definitely look for at least some crossover.

Anastasia: And you and Sinc and Janine are going to be, a one, two, three punch. That's going to be pretty fun to watch, especially with K.K. (Karina Le Blanc) as the president, too. It's just like Canadians are infiltrating Portland.

Jessie Fleming: Yeah. Don't tell the Americans that. I don't think they like that.

Anastasia: Yeah, we wont play that clip.

Jessie Fleming: Only north of the border. Yeah.

Anastasia: So you have been such a generational talent. You've gotten to be a star at the collegiate level. You've been a star over in Europe. You're a star in North America. It's a little bit of an old question, but I genuinely would like to know, is Canada becoming a football nation?

Jessie Fleming: [Pause] I think we're getting there. I think it takes time. I think it takes more time than people appreciate. When you look at a lot of these European and South American countries, their football traditions date back a lot longer than, Canada's. So I think we have a lot of work to do.

But I do think you're you're seeing signs of the development, especially when you look at where players on both the women's and men's sides are playing. Having more players at top clubs. I think that's a pretty good indication that we're we're taking the right steps. But yeah, I do still think there's a lot of work to do. I mean, when you look at the hockey culture in Canada, you hear about people playing pickup hockey on their local pond. So I don't know if we necessarily have an equivalent of that for, for soccer or football yet.

I don't know if it's totally permeated in Canadian culture. And I think that's the big difference between us and Europe. It takes more time than than people appreciate it. You know, I think there's also very positive things, like the development of Project Eight and how that will mean that we're getting women's soccer and just soccer in general in front of Canadians more frequently. So I think there's a lot of things to be excited about right now. But there's there's also a lot of work to do and it'll take some time.

Anastasia: Well, and big thanks for that goes to you! Thank you for inspiring everyone. Thank you for giving me some time. Gosh, it is always such a privilege to see your face. The last time I saw you, I saw you at Sinc's last game, and then I saw you randomly on a flight from Budapest or Frankfurt. That was the most random moment of my life. I'm like, hey, Jessie Fleming! And then we just chatted for whatever.

Jessie Fleming: That was yeah, a very nice surprise.

Anastasia: I appreciate you. Thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Jessie Fleming: Oh, thanks for having me.

Anastasia: It's my pleasure, buddy. Peace.

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Jessie Fleming spoke to us from Vancouver. Just a short hop away from the next stage of her career, playing for Portland in the NWSL.

Brad Middleton recorded our conversation here in the CBC sports digital studio.

Player's Own Voice podcast is available on CBC Listen and everywhere else you get your podcasts.

#player's own voice. My handle is #Anastasure.

Olivia Pasquarelli is our editor. Adam Blinov wrote our theme music. David Giddens is our producer.

Thanks for listening.

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