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The Current Transcript for February 12, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SPEAKER: I think I love winter. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard. When it's -35 it's a little bit trying. You know, -20 is good.

MATT GALLOWAY: The name 'Winterpeg' sticks for a reason, though, maybe not so much this year. The city, known for its teeth chattering temperatures, has almost been balmy by comparison this season, and many locals aren't happy. We are in Winnipeg this morning. Coming up, how those who make it their business to embrace winter are pivoting in the absence of ice and snow. Also, this morning, Manitoba has the second largest Ukrainian diaspora in the world. And so, two years ago, when war erupted, this province welcomed with open arms those who were fleeing the conflict. In 30 minutes meet two newcomers who left home and found family here. And later:

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SPEAKER: We met with the families and the premier opened that relationship, first off with an apology and second off with a pipe ceremony. That's a sacred commitment. And that surge will happen.

MG: When Manitoba Premier Wab Kinew was elected last fall, he promised that his government would search a Winnipeg landfill believed to hold the remains of two First Nations women. Now, members of the community are asking, what's taking so long? In an hour, the provincial minister responsible on when that search will happen and what that commitment means to her personally. But we begin with another pressing issue for the government that is familiar right across this country, an exodus of nurses rocking the health care system. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway in Winnipeg, and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Nurses leaving public health care for private agencies

Guests: Darlene Jackson, Ivy Bourgeault

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WAB KINEW: I want to say also very clearly that part of the reason why we're here to make an announcement to commit to more resources for the front lines here in the health care system, is that we want to take care of you folks who are working in health care right now. And the Minister of Health and the rest of our team. We've sent a very clear message that we need you on the front lines, and that help is coming.

MG: A plea and a promise from Manitoba Premier Wab Kinew, as he announced 36 new beds at Saint-Boniface hospital last month. It was part of the NDP's pledge to fix an overburdened and understaffed health care system. As you heard, the premier is urging those on the front lines to stick it out. These issues are acute in nursing, with some leaving the profession and a growing number leaving the public system to work for private agencies. Jamie Manness was an emergency room nurse at the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg.

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JAMIE MANNESS: Leaving my workplace after 14 years this past June was the most difficult career decision I've ever made. What ultimately made me leave was that I recognized that I needed a change of scenery for my own mental health and well-being.

MG: For Jamie, feeling unsafe on the job was one of the main reasons to leave. She'd been threatened and assaulted by patients, and the staffing shortage was also taking a toll on her.

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JAMIE MANNESS: When we are working short, we will often have to pull nurses into the resuscitation room, which leaves one nurse looking after seven to eight patients. And we do the most incredible and heartbreaking and challenging things in that room. And then we literally come out those doors and we have maybe 20 steps before we are right back at our patient who is, you know, under the influence of drugs and trying to hurt us, or a cancer patient who we're trying to do our best for, you know, we have to switch gears. There's no time for processing these days. And I sit and I cry at work because I'm human and because we see horrible things.

MG: When Jamie left her nursing position in Winnipeg, she went to work in Grande Prairie, Alberta, for a private agency, as what's often called a travel nurse.

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JAMIE MANNESS: I think most folks would say that travel nurses are in it for the money, and they don't understand the risk involved. And so travel nurses have no benefits, no sick time, no union support, no banked vacation days and no pension plan. And so the money is good. But I don't know that you would get a nurse to leave a workplace that they loved by offering more money. It's a complex multitude of factors, I think, that pulls people into the private sector.

MG: Manitoba spent 60 million dollars on private agency nurses last year, and it's on course to pay more than that this year. Critics say private nurses are driving up the cost of health care in Manitoba and right across this country and robbing the public system of resources.

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JAMIE MANNESS: I take umbrage with the politics and divisive nature that we're hearing. People in leadership who are trying to pit staff nurses against travel nurses. Travel nurses are not the enemy, and I think we should just be celebrating that anyone is showing up for work as a nurse right now, given the state of health care, whether that be a staff or travel nurse. Breaks my heart to be away from home and away from all that I love about Manitoba. And I miss my peers and my colleagues at HSC. They are an incredible team. And I do miss working alongside them. And I would come home in a heartbeat, but stuff would have to change.

MG: Jamie Manness has been working in Alberta as an agency nurse, also known as a travel nurse since August. Darlene Jackson worked as a nurse for 40 years and is now president of the Manitoba Nurses Association. She is here with me in Winnipeg. Darlene, good morning.

DARLENE JACKSON: Good morning.

MG: What strikes you about Jamie's decision to leave her job in Winnipeg for a private agency in a different province?

DARLENE JACKSON: It's something that I've been hearing from nurses for probably the last five years, is that they cannot maintain working in our public health care system with the staff shortages. And we know that there's many, many issues with safety in our facilities that we are trying to address. And I have no issue with nurses going--I understand why they're going...

MG: I was going to say, do understand why they're going? Why they're leaving the public system?

DARLENE JACKSON: I absolutely do. The workload is crushing. Nurses have been mandated to overtime on a daily basis. So go in for eight hours and be there for 16. Some nurses, 24 hours. I understand why they're leaving. There's so much more control.

MG: I'd read that nurses are getting something like 30 to 40 emails a day offering shifts if you're working in the private system.

DARLENE JACKSON: Absolutely, absolutely.

MG: So, there's a huge demand for that.

DARLENE JACKSON: There is a huge demand because we have such a critical nursing shortage right now.

MG: And Jamie said that it's not just about money. That it's in many ways also about the other parts to this. I mean, I'm sure money is a part of it, but there's other elements to this as well, including the decreased workload.

DARLENE JACKSON: I agree. And part of it is you leave a very secure job with great benefits and a pension and go to a position that has no benefits, no pension, no union support. There is definitely a motive driving nurses out of the public system into the private when you're leaving a very secure position.

MG: Explain how this works. How do private nurses work within a public system?

DARLENE JACKSON: They are assigned shifts. You know, the employer's contract with the private agency. Nurses agree to pick up shifts and...

MG: And those are still within public hospitals, right?

DARLENE JACKSON: Absolutely.

MG: So there are private nurses working within a public system. And the public hospitals are hiring not just from the public system but bringing people in from outside.

DARLENE JACKSON: Absolutely. And this is something that's been ongoing for a lot of years. It was very, it was, they were not well, you know, not utilized as much in the past, mostly for really remote or hard-to-recruit-to areas. But now we're seeing agency nurses everywhere. Prince Edward Island never had an agency nurse in their province until about 18 months ago. And now they are a regular occurrence.

MG: You have called the use of these nurses in relation to the cost, and we'll get to that in a moment, the word that you used was 'unconscionable.' Why do you say that?

DARLENE JACKSON: Because I believe the agencies are absolutely, they are utilizing this nursing shortage to make massive profits. So I know for a fact, I have a friend who had applied to an agency, got an email offering her 130 dollars an hour to go work in a facility in Alberta. And not a rural or remote facility--in a city. A hundred and thirty dollars an hour. And I think it's unconscionable that these agencies are making a huge profit on the, because we're in a critical nursing shortage.

MG: That's still being paid by the public system. Right?

DARLENE JACKSON: Absolutely. Those monies are coming right out of the public pocket and out of the public system. And it's, I mean, I don't know a nurse in the public system that's making 130 dollars an hour. I can't even believe that we are, that we are continuing to do this.

MG: Well just, I guess the last point on this is why would the public system be willing to pay that through private agencies, but not pay it directly through the nurses that are going to be working there anyway within the public system?

DARLENE JACKSON: That's a great question. And, you know, that's one of my issues is: pour that money back into the public system, bring those nurses back into the public system and retain every nurse we have. I think it's so important that our public health system is robust and well-funded, and it is just, I feel as if it's just eroding daily.

MG: What does it mean for the patients? If you are one of those patients who, I mean, nurses are the backbone of the system in many ways. And you have nurses that are rotating through because they're, as Jamie was describing, you're working with one patient and you move, you know, a few steps down, you're working with a different patient. What's the impact of that on those of us who are receiving the care?

DARLENE JACKSON: I think that there's a decrease in continuity of care.

MG: What does that mean?

DARLENE JACKSON: Well, let's say you work in a long-term-care facility, and you work a full-time position. Those residents see you day in and day out. They become very familiar with them. You're very familiar with their habits and their patterns. When you are working as an agency nurse, those, you may only work a shift or two in that facility and then move on and never, you know, never go back to that facility. So, continuity of care is so important when you are, when you are carrying on care day after day. And I mean, an example is when my mom was in the hospital, every day I went to see her there was a different nurse there. And I thought, my goodness, they have a lot of casual nurses. They were agency nurses one shift at a time. So every day I had to go in and orientate them to what my mum's needs were, what her preferences were, how she would react to different situations. I felt like I was continuously orientated a nurse to provide care to my mom.

MG: What is it going to take? I mean, is this just about money? Is that what it's going to take to keep those nurses within the public system or to lure them back? Jamie says it's about more than money.

DARLENE JACKSON: It is about more than money. It's about safety in the workplace. It's about having a workload that's sustainable. It's about a nurse being able to provide the care that we know we should be providing and that our patients deserve.

MG: But ultimately, that's about money, right? You're going to need more people on the ground so that the workload isn't going to drive nurses to that point of burnout where they would leave.

DARLENE JACKSON: Absolutely, absolutely. We need to do something to bring nurses back from the agencies into the public system. And we really need to bolster our funding to the public system.

MG: What do you say to nurses like Jamie who are deciding to go to private agencies? We speak with nurses all the time, and they, one of the things that uniformly they tell us, no matter where they happen to be working, is how exhausted they are. How the last several years, in particular, have driven them to the point in which they don't know whether they want to stay in this profession. And if they do, something like this might be really attractive. So, what do you say to those nurses whose heads might be turned by an option like this?

DARLENE JACKSON: I understand exactly how they're feeling. They are burnt out, they're exhausted, and they're looking for some type of work life balance that allows them to maintain good mental health. I understand that. The problem is, is that every nurse that leaves the public system to go to a private agency depletes our public system and leaves us even shorter, which means workloads grow. It is just, it's a real domino-effect. And I believe retention of nurses in the system and bringing those agency nurses back into our public health care system is the only answer.

MG: So, we're going to speak tomorrow as part of our show tomorrow night here in Winnipeg with the premier, Wab Kinew. What would you say to him?

DARLENE JACKSON: I need, I would say to him, we need to look at retention. We need to ensure that nurses have a safe place to work, that nurses have a reasonable workload and that we need to be providing the mental health supports for them to actually stay in this system long enough to keep us going.

MG: Do you think he's listening?

DARLENE JACKSON: I think he's listening; I do.

MG: We'll find out. Really glad to talk to you about this, Darlene. Thank you very much.

DARLENE JACKSON: Thank you.

MG: Darlene Jackson is the president of the Manitoba Nurses Union. Ivy Bourgeault is a professor at the University of Ottawa, leads the Canadian Health Workforce Networks, co-author of a 2022 report called Sustaining Nursing in Canada. She's in our Ottawa studio. Ivy, good morning to you.

IVY BOURGEAULT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Give us a sense, we heard from Darlene how this is playing out in Manitoba. Give us a sense as to how frequently these travel nurses/agency nurses are being used across the country.

IVY BOURGEAULT: Yeah, this is not just a made-in-Manitoba situation. This is happening all across Canada. And so, there's a frustrated, burnt-out workforce. Many of them are leaving, as your first interviewee mentioned. And it is happening in every single province and in territories.

MG: Do you understand why they're leaving?

IVY BOURGEAULT: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is a very exhausted, abused and frustrated workforce. And if they don't see light at the end of the tunnel, it's really hard to say to them to stick it out.

MG: The auditor general in Ontario recently described a situation in that province where a Northern Ontario hospital bought property to house this rotating cast of travelling health care workers. It was paying for property taxes, internet, furniture, lawn care, snow blowing so that they could get in and out of the house. That cut into the hospital budget. There was another hospital that said it was like running a de facto travel agency for out-of-town nurses. How did we get to this point where private agencies--in Darlene's language--are bleeding a public resource?

IVY BOURGEAULT: Well, these are very sort of downstream solutions. And as you mentioned, a lot of money is being spent. And is this the best place to spend the money? Is this the best way? You know, as Darlene mentioned, I mean, if money was put into retention, which was the number one recommendation that came out of our report, retaining the nurses that you have, returning nurses that have left the system either to agencies or have left to work someplace else and then strategically recruit what we called a triple R set of solutions to react to the crisis. But you really do need to have a multi-layered plan, and there needs to be a plan, because otherwise you're always playing catch up.

MG: How much is this costing the taxpayer? Again, when Darlene is saying that people are being offered, what, close to 150 dollar an hour, and that there are no nurses within the public sector that are being offered that, what's the cost to the taxpayer? Because that money is coming out of the public purse. No matter how people are working, where people are working.

IVY BOURGEAULT: Absolutely. And the public needs to ask, is this the best return on my investment? Is the best return for money to go into housing, to go into all of these other services as you described, and not into the care that is being provided to me and other members of the public, actually in the front line at the hospitals. So, it really is a return on investment question that we now have.

MG: The Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions said that private agency nurse salaries need to be capped and that agency nurses ultimately have to be phased out. How realistic is that when you hear how reliant some provinces are on these travel nurses?

IVY BOURGEAULT: Well, I think we need a set of strategic targets to shift away from agency nurses. I think a set of stepwise regulations of the agencies and how much they're being used, how much is being spent actually on the nurses or other agency staff, because this isn't just happening in nursing. There are physician assistants and other types of staff that are being recruited through these agencies. So I think some form of regulations are in order because this becomes an insidious form of privatization. And again, not a good return on the investment of the public in the health system that we need.

MG: I'm going to come back to that, what you just said at the end. But you can't phase this out, right? Given how reliant the health care system is now in some jurisdictions on these private agency nurses, you can't phase that out now, can you?

IVY BOURGEAULT: I strongly believe that you can, and we must because we can't continue down this road. It is not sustainable.

MG: What--you called it an insidious form of privatization.

IVY BOURGEAULT: Yes. Because, as Darlene was mentioning, in some of the statistics that we can find, and this is an area where we have very little research and very little knowledge of what's happening. And it's really coming out through these media reports. We don't know how much money is actually going to the agency versus the nurse and for all of these other things. So, there is money being sort of, had, from the agency. So that's the insidious form of privatization.

MG: I guess I'm still just trying to wrap my head around why, if we, broadly, are paying this money, why isn't that money just going to the nurses themselves? If one of the things they're worried about is salary but also burnout, but you're having to pay more to a private agency to staff up at the same levels, why not just pay that money directly through the public system and cut the agency out of it?

IVY BOURGEAULT: I think that's an excellent question. And that's why...

MG: Is there an answer to that?

IVY BOURGEAULT: Well, I think that we need to have a crucial conversation and bring those conversations to a transparent public audience in terms of like, how is this happening? Why is the money being spent there? What might be some other solutions that are a better return on investment to keep our staff in the public system for public good?

MG: And so, what would those solutions be? Part of this is about salary and you pay people more money. But to Darlene's point, if nurses feel threatened, if they feel unsafe, but they also, just, the work is too much. They don't want to do the work because they're exhausted. The last few years have taken them to the brink and then beyond. What do we do about that?

IVY BOURGEAULT: Absolutely. That's part of the crucial conversation, is to say, what are the package of policies, the package of solutions that are going to keep you here? Some of that needs to be a hard question. You know, a hard discussion in regard to the violence that nurses are experiencing, the lack of safety in terms of the kind of quality of care they are able to provide based on a certain workload. And listen, we're going to have to have that serious conversation about better management. We can't just see this bleeding of the system of staff going into private agencies or going elsewhere to do other type of work. We have to sort of have that broader conversation of a set of solutions to bring to bear to this problem.

MG: So understanding that this is an issue, have you seen any progress from governments to kind of move this along?

IVY BOURGEAULT: I think that there have been some solutions. I don't, I would not say that I've seen a sort of package like a really coordinated, concentrated package of solutions that we really need to see because this is a multilayered problem. Right? You have issues of nurses that are early career. There's a different set of solutions to keep them within the system. There are a different set of solutions for mid-career, late-career nurses. How is it that we keep, you know, really experienced nurses within the system? So it's going to have a different set of solutions. And how is it that we keep late nurses in by maybe mentoring early career nurses? These are some of the solutions that we highlighted in our report.

MG: But point being, I mean, it doesn't matter where somebody is in a career if they can work elsewhere for more money and less work, you can understand why they might--I mean, there is, people talk about nursing being a calling. And working in a public sector, helping people might be part of that calling. But you can understand the lure elsewhere.

IVY BOURGEAULT: Absolutely. And I don't think that we should rely on only the goodwill of nurses in this calling and having ask them to stick it out in a situation that's really untenable, we really have to support them. And this is, again, not just happening to nursing. This is happening to a range of health workers in the system. And the more that we see that this is, you know, nurses are a bit of the canary in the coal mine, that we really need to come together to have some solutions. We can't just have this stopgap measure because the cost is too high, and those investments can be brought back into the system to help sustain the nurses who, and nurses and all health workers who are in the public system.

MG: We'll be talking about what else is happening in that coal mine. In the meantime, Ivy, thank you very much.

IVY BOURGEAULT: Thank you.

MG: Ivy Bourgeault is a University of Ottawa professor and leader of the pan Canadian Human Resources Network when it comes to health care. Your CBC News is up next, and then:

[Music fades up: Instrumental]

MG: Manitoba has a big Ukrainian community. They have welcomed many more into that community who are fleeing war. We'll meet a couple of people who left their lives and families behind to start new lives here in Winnipeg. It's coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway in Winnipeg. This is The Current. Stay with us.

‘Winterpeg’ struggling with warmer weather

Guests: Anders Swanson, Christel Lanthier

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current from Winnipeg. I got here yesterday afternoon and immediately went for a walk. It's been warm here this winter. There's the thinnest blanket of snow on the ground and the temperature is just below zero. But this is a city that is made for real winter. So, at The Forks in the heart of the city, people are making the best of what winter there actually is. At the skating rink, beginners of all ages were getting a first lesson.

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ANDERS SWANSON: Okay, so first thing to learn is how to get comfortable. So first, I need you to relax. Do this. Like this. [Mouth noises.] Yeah, yeah. There you go. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle. Okay, great. Move the legs a little bit like this. Back and forth. Back and forth. Okay, great.

MG: People here are also learning how to cross-country ski.

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ANDERS SWANSON: It can get hairy when the weather and the everything cooperates and look out. Our busiest, we had 975 people sign up for one Friday. To ski. It was a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful thing. For us, we were just on our knees in the snow, putting boots on people that have never skied before and then king of giving them a push on the back and good luck. We didn't have time to explain anything hardly. It was just awesome to watch what was going on out there. Especially among people who are new to Canada.

OLEKS KORNIIKO: There's a lot of newcomers coming, too. Y'know, welcome to Canada.

ANDERS SWANSON: It's kind of an honour. You feel like a bit of an ambassador.

OLEKS KORNIIKO: Yeah. It's so nice.

ANDERS SWANSON: It's been so lovely having Oleks around just because, like, Oleks is a paralympian. So, like, he can crush me, like, in a sit ski. And it's just watching him sort of approach anybody and be like, yeah, get out there. Let's try. There's, 'oh I'm scared' or 'oh, I don't know what I'm going to do.' And he's always got an answer for them.

OLEKS KORNIIKO: I like all the beginners who come. It's so fun. It's all smiles, all love. This is love I think for all life.

ANDERS SWANSON: That's exactly what people have said. Like they say, that changed my life.

MG: That's Anders Swanson teaching skiing and skating. He's executive director of the Winnipeg Trails Association and with him is Oleks Korniiko who is a Ukrainian paralympian who volunteers at The Forks.

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ANDERS SWANSON: I wish there was more snow. But yeah, we're making a go of it. Here is where the river trail starts. Winnipeg has a famous skating trail that's made the Guinness Book of World Records. But there's all kinds of things for people to do outside here every day of the week.

MG: We were just down by the famous skating trail where there's nobody skating because you can't skate because the weather has not cooperated.

ANDERS SWANSON: Yeah. The weather has been interesting. Weather, climate, they're different things, but you can sure feel what it's going to be like if this pattern continues. It may sound like a nice idea, climate change, but when it really hits you, there's a lot of things that you're going to miss, you know? So, we get people to enjoy it and to, sort of, also to understand snow and how it works as a building material. As something you can play with.

MG: Okay, make the pitch. If somebody thinks, you know what, I like it when it's warmer and the cold is annoying and I don't want to be out in the snow, make the pitch as to why you have to embrace winter.

ANDERS SWANSON: I mean, the pitch for me is, you know, if everything was sweet, then you wouldn't know what sweet tasted like. It's one of the beautiful things about living in a place with, some people might call extreme weather is, getting to see the difference in people and how we are. I think it's really neat. Nice sort of understanding that winter is a time when things take a break. Whenever there's a lot of snow, it really makes me realize that humans have such folly in terms of sticking to a calendar and a Monday to Friday work week. And anybody who's in love with surfing or skiing really is on a different calendar. You know, it's like it's go time when you've got lots of snow. It's go time if the surf is good. And I think that's a way of being that's much more in tune with how we are as, not just human beings but beings.

MG: What's it like for you? We just met a woman who, from the Dominican, learned how to ski for the first time.

ANDERS SWANSON: Mhm. Yeah.

MG: What is that like for you? You have a big smile on your face.

ANDERS SWANSON: Have a big smile on my face because I got to teach her to ski today. Seeing her, like, experiencing the difference in, you know, all the things that I take for granted in terms of where I can see, where there's good snow, where there's bad snow, how it's going to feel. She's learning all of that for the first time, learning how to fall and how to get up. And, I don't know, I just love sharing that with as many people as I possibly can.

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[Sound: scratching on ice]

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: You can really hear the ice [unclear] this ear from the mouth. These blocks got rained on but they're still nice and carvable, which is nice, but.

MG: Just a few minutes away, we're at the park where the Festival de Voyageur kicks off this Friday. Christel Lanthier is showing me how to sculpt a big block of snow. She organizes the festival's famous snow sculpture display.

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MG: So normally, I mean, this is a very tall block of snow and ice, but it's ten feet, 12 feet, maybe. But it's been a really weird, warm winter. Like, we're standing outside and we're not shivering and freezing cold at the beginning of February. How unusual is this?

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: Right, like I'm not even wearing my winter jacket.

MG: I wasn't going to say that. I'd sound like somebody's parents. 'Where is your coat?'

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: Like I'm wearing, wool. I'm good. We did manage to put up a few snow blocks. We usually have, you know, last year I think we put up 30 snow blocks in the city. And this year [unclear] has about, four or five blocks.

MG: Is it a little heartbreaking?

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: I mean, you know, I...

MG: Or a lot heartbreaking?

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: Last week it was really warm, and the park looked really muddy and wet. And it was a little hard to take, but then, I was like, that's okay. We'll figure something out. We'll make something really cool out of this. I must admit, I'm loving that the cold is back. You know, we're the kind that will go out and embrace winter. We want to go play outside. We want to join winter. Not hide inside and...I didn't love when it was wet last week because it's like, oh, is this what it's like living in the, you know, in Toronto or... Not to diss Toronto, but I really love Winnipeg weather.

MG: We're standing front of this huge, like it's a genetic block of ice. And how long is this going to last?

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: I mean, it'll last until it melts.

MG: Will last until it melts.

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: Yeah. I love that snow sculptures are an ephemeral thing.

MG: For people who are getting winter right now.

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: Yeah.

MG: And they're like, bring me the warmth. What would you say to them?

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: I would say just, it'll come. Enjoy the cold while it's here. Go play outside.

MG: Go play outside.

CHRISTEL LANTHIER: Go play outside.

[Music: Instrumental]

Ukrainians who found refuge in Winnipeg

Guests: Olha Kushniryk, Khrystyna Rudanets

MG: My name is Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current from Winnipeg.

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TIM: This is my toy. A [unclear], he can make noise. That's a small Pikachu. This is a medium. And this is a big one.

MARK: And this is my rabbit.

TIM: I have [unclear]

MG: It's a game of show and tell with two brothers. Tim is seven. Mark is 11 years old. The boys are bouncing around the living room of their tidy Winnipeg apartment. A plastic Christmas tree still twinkles at one end of the couch, and a pile of board games and books anchors the other.

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MARYNA OLIESHKO: They learn English very fast, and they teach us at home. [laughs] Me and my mum. So, they are our teachers.

MG: Maryna Olieshko and her two sons and her mother, Nila made a difficult decision to leave Ukraine soon after the Russian invasion in 2022. A local church and a host family sponsored them to come to Winnipeg. One family member who did not make the journey was Marina's husband. Under martial law most men under the age of 60 have to stay in Ukraine. Alexei is a minister and now volunteers with the war effort.

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MARYNA OLIESHKO: He helps people with humanitarian aid. So, he helps with food and clothes because it's so expensive now in Ukraine. It's a terrible situation. Many victims, many ruins. My husband lives at the church now. It's more safe when rockets or bombs fly. It's so dangerous.

MG: Their sons are aware of the danger back home and they want to stay in Canada. Marina and her mom are doing what they can. Learning the language, working at a local thrift store to pay the bills and their host family and the Ukrainian community here still help out as well.

SOUNDCLIP

MARYNA OLIESHKO: My children know it's a difficult time for us and one day I cry. Another day I smile, then again cries and again smile. Sometimes I feel like weakness in my body, and I am very tired. But I know we need to keep going and keep praying. And I tell myself, Marina, don't give up. Keep going.

MG: Maryna plans to apply for permanent residency here, with hopes that her husband will someday join them in Winnipeg. Manitoba has welcomed more than 20,000 Ukrainians fleeing the war, the most of any province of its size. As we near the two-year mark of the war, I'm joined by two recent newcomers to Winnipeg. Olha Kushniryk came to Winnipeg in June of last year. She teaches chemistry part-time at the University of Manitoba. And Khrystyna Rudanets works as a settlement coordinator with the Ukrainian Canadian Congress in Manitoba. She arrived in Winnipeg in March of last year and they are both in our Winnipeg studio. Good morning to you both.

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Good morning.

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: Good morning.

MG: Khystyna, when you listen to Maryna and her family, what goes through your mind?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: I have so, like, a lot of empathy for Maryna. Yes, we have bad days. We are crying then we just feel like happy. But we are human. And in my family, it's the exact same situation. Like my uncle, he's now in the front line and I know how his wife feels. We are together and we have to do everything. Like who will do it if not us?

MG: Who will do it but not us? Olha, what about for you? Does that sound familiar, what you just heard?

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: Yes. It's familiar. And I know that it's been a difficult time for all Ukrainians. For all Ukrainians. It doesn't matter whether they are in Ukraine or abroad. We have to keep together. And we have to just support each other and do everything we can for our victory.

MG: What was it like, Olha, when you first came to Winnipeg? You arrived, as I said, in June of last year.

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: Yeah. It was a hard decision for me to leave Ukraine, to leave all my family, my friends. I decided that it's better to help my country from abroad than to be in Ukraine and to be under the missile attack. So I decided to move and to donate to help from abroad.

MG: Did you know anybody in Winnipeg?

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: No.

MG: No, not at all? So how did you find support? How did you find a place to stay, for example?

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: A first, I appreciate the Government of Canada, the government of Manitoba that they provided us with a hotel for Saturdays. So, in that hotel, I met a lot of Ukrainians that came at the same time as me. And then I met a lot of people and support in church, and I appreciate them for that. It was important to meet somebody who is from Ukraine. Who has Ukraine in his heart and who can just support because he understands what we feel.

MG: What about for you, Khrystyna? You came in March of last year. What was that like?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: I didn't want to move until the situation, like, was worse. But we were suffering. And people now are suffering with a lot of measles attacks, air raid attacks, and children now have to, and teachers have to conduct their lessons in the basement. And it was really when you just wake up at 4 a.m. and you have to go to the basement or to the bathroom, and tides are. Another reason was huge attacks to our critical infrastructure. It was totally blackouts. So we were without internet, without data, without heating, without light, and without maybe the light, like, for two hours per day. It was really like a disaster. And that's why it like was my final decision to move. Because in this situation I cannot earn money. I cannot support our defenders. I cannot be useful. Like, I even cannot like create cook bonds for our military because the oven was not working without electricity.

MG: That's a lot. And you can understand, we met many, many, many people who were fleeing the country in the weeks after the war. When you got to Canada, what was the biggest challenge that you faced?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Oh. Really, I'm so lucky. I'm so happy because here I had acquaintances. They just met me at the airport, and they like, moved before. They are also newcomers, and they just, like, showed me, like, all the procedures. But the huge challenge for me is it was that I was totally alone without my family, without my friends, and I had to handle all the situations alone. Of course, my friends helped me, but you also cannot share all of your inner thoughts. And it's a new culture, it's a new country. But I'm so lucky to have such great people in my life. My friends, they met me and now it's made an interesting story for you. We, after that, we start dating and I'm engaged.

MG: Hey, congratulations.

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Thank you. And, yeah, it's really great story because we knew each other all our lives. But start dating in Canada, in friendly Manitoba, and now we are engaged.

MG: You're smiling when you're talking about this.

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Yes.

MG: You've come out of something really difficult and suddenly there's something beautiful in your life.

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, like, every, our life, we can find something really difficult, challenging for us. And we can find also the rainbow. It depends on our attention. When you give your attention to beautiful, you start like producing beautiful things and do something better.

MG: Olha, for you. I mean, you talked about the community that you found in the church.

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: Yeah.

MG: When you leave a different country and you start over, what was the most difficult thing for you?

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: The most difficult thing is to be apart of my family, of my relatives, friends in Ukraine. To feel scary about their lives because they stayed under attacks in Ukraine. I think I'm very lucky that I met a lot of good friends here and people who helped me, who supported me, who understand what I'm feeling and to what I need.

MG: What is it that you're feeling as this war continues?

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: For many people, a war, it's like something that is so far from you. But for Ukrainians it's something that is our reality. And we live with this feeling every day. We wake up reading news. What happened in Ukraine? We go to sleep reading news.

MG: Is that what you do? You wake up and you read the news immediately.

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: Yes, I read news immediately. I want to know what is happening. It's very hard.

MG: How do you keep your spirits up knowing you're not there, but people that you know and that you love are there?

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: We should do this. We should do otherwise, we will die. So we have to keep our spirit. We have to believe in our victory. We have to do everything we can to make our victory.

MG: Khrystyna, what about for you? You said that you have an uncle that's on the front line. Is that right?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Yeah.

MG: And so how closely do you follow what's happening?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: First of all, I want to say that, yes, we are lucky we are in like in safe country in Canada. But we really like feel this guilty. I'm here. I'm in safe place. But now my family, my relatives they're under missiles.

MG: You feel guilty about that?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Sometimes, and it's really kind of hard and you have to handle it every day. And I have like the mobile app with the air raid alarms and even at night I didn't turn off this app. And even at night, I know there is air raid alarm in my region and I just text my mom, I text my, I call my brother, and I say, 'how are you guys?'

MG: You still have the app on your phone, even in Winnipeg.

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Yeah. Even in Winnipeg.

MG: So it goes off if there's an air raid back home. You hear that alert? Whatever it is, that noise on your phone?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Yeah. And I have to know. And also, I have two uncles. They are at the front line. One of them was in Bakhmut, and I'm really proud of them. And my father is a priest and three weeks ago he was also at the front line and the Slovyansk, [unclear.] He helped our defenders, our brave military guys, to pray. Like he had conversations with them. Also, he and volunteers, like we really, like country of volunteers. They just bought the car and drones and food items, some supplies. And it's really, we can help with ammunition with this, but we cannot like to give a warranty for the life of our relatives, of our people. And maybe it's the most painful, but maybe this pain gives us energy to fight. Yeah.

MG: You're in a new city now. And, I just wonder, what do you love about Winnipeg?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Oh, I love in Winnipeg. So, like, some people can say, it's not like. So, like, great city, like not so much skyscrapers, etc…But I love Winnipeg. You can find beautiful things in everywhere. So, Winnipeg is a great city with a huge history. It's really home for thousands of immigrants from all over the world. And I like the spirit, I like streets, I like to watch documentary movies about Manitoba, about this field, the Bisons. And, yeah.

MG: You sound like a Manitoban.

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Yeah.

MG: What about you, Olha? What do you love about the city that you're in now?

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: I like to meet new people and to feel life here, to meet Canadians, to talk to them. I'm in a good place, safe place. And I feel myself here as at home. I'm really happy to be here.

MG: Can you imagine going back to Ukraine?

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: For now, this is my new home. But I believe, I hope that war will be ended soon in Ukraine. I hope that finally my Ukraine will see peace and great future.

MG: What about for you, Khrystyna? I mean, you're engaged now, so maybe there's reason for you to stay, but can you imagine going back to Ukraine?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Frankly speaking, yes. And personally, for me, I would like to back. I would like to help to rebuild our future. But for now, I feel useful here.

MG: Useful?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Yes. Because I can help here in Winnipeg. And also I can help like in Ukraine. I can donate some money. And yeah.

MG: You two have gone through something very similar. You're living very different lives and you're very different people, but you have a very similar experience. Had you met each other before today?

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Yeah.

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: I met Khrystyna, I believe, in July or June when I just came to Winnipeg. And Khrystyna helped me to write resume and my first resume, on the Canadian Standard and to apply for different places. And actually, it was just the start of my way to find a job, and I appreciate for this help.

MG: I'm glad that you met each other. And I'm really glad to have the chance to talk to you. Thank you both.

OLHA KUSHNIRYK: Thank you very much. Thank you, Matt.

KHRYSTYNA RUDANETS: Thank you.

MG: Olha Kushniryk and Khrystyna Rudanets both arrived in Winnipeg in the past year from Ukraine. Now, we can't be here in Winnipeg without playing some music from one of my favourite Canadian bands. This is The Weakerthans and 'Benediction.'

[Music: 'Benediction' by The Weakerthans]

MG: Coming up after your regional update we'll be speaking with Nahanni Fontaine, longtime advocate for indigenous women and girls. She is now a minister in Manitoba's new government. We'll talk to her coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway in Winnipeg. And you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Instrumental]

The landfill search for missing Indigenous women

Guests: Sandra DeLaronde, Nahanni Fontaine

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current from Winnipeg. A warning this next story contains distressing details about missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls.

SOUNDCLIP

DONNA BARTLETT: We should never have been through this. We shouldn't be fighting to find our women, to bring them home. We shouldn't be begging every day. This is our women. There's no reason for them to be in that landfill. Why can't you go and look right away? What's wrong with our government? If we weren't First Nation people, I'm pretty damn sure they'd be looking real quick. I say it all the time. If we were white, they would be looking.

MG: That's Donna Bartlett, and the women she wants to bring home are her granddaughter, Marcedes Myran, and another woman, Morgan Harris. Both were murdered, and investigators believe their bodies were buried in the Prairie Green landfill north of Winnipeg. Calls to search that landfill have been debated. While the idea of a search was at first dismissed, Manitoba's new NDP government has committed to starting the search sometime this year. Nahanni Fontaine is the minister of families, accessibility and gender equity in Manitoba. Minister, good morning.

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: Good morning.

MG: When you hear Donna Bartlett say that racism is the reason that this landfill search hasn't happened, that if those women were white, they would be looking. Is she wrong?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: No. I think she's 100 per cent right. And I believe that if you were to ask, you know, anyone in our community, that would be the same sentiment and same response. And I think it's important to recognize that this past election, you know, October of 2023, you know, we had the former government, a current PC party that chose to design their whole provincial election campaign off the murders of Indigenous women by a serial killer who were dumped in a landfill. If that is not the quintessential example of how devalued Indigenous women, girls and two-spirited are, and how that is founded and predicated upon racism, I don't know what is.

MG: The morning after the election, I spoke with the new premier, and he committed that this search would happen. When will the search begin?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: We are just in the process right now of reviewing the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs' proposal. We're working with families. We're looking forward to meeting with them. I'm hoping in the next couple of weeks. I'm kind of playing telephone tag with some of them right now. But I think that ultimately it has been explicitly clear that the premier and our government are committed to searching the landfill. It will happen.

MG: Do we know when it will happen, though? That's the question.

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: Yeah. I mean, we're still working out some of those details. It's actually a very complicated search. A lot of partners and a lot of logistics to map out. But I know that the premier and myself are hoping sooner than later.

MG: First Nations leaders say that having to wait as long as they have to search this landfill is inhumane to the families of these women, and that any further delays are unacceptable. What do you say to them about why this search can't begin right now?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: You know, look, first off, let me just say that I understand and can appreciate how this is like a form of torture in many respects to wait for your loved ones. And we are going as fast as we can. And, you know, we don't want to, particularly as Indigenous politicians, like, we understand it. We are not separate from what the community experiences or has experienced.

MG: And yet there are members of that community who say that they don't see the urgency. I mean, Cambria Harris, the daughter of Morgan Harris, has filed a human rights complaint against your government for failing to allocate resources for the landfill searches.

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: Yeah. And I think the human rights complaint is predominantly about the former government. And again, the only thing that I can do, particularly as an Indigenous woman and someone that's worked on this file for almost 25 years, is give my assurances, and alongside the Premier, our commitment to searching. It will get done.

MG: That report from the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and ICN Maskwa said, amongst other things, that if this is not done, if there is not immediate funding, that gaps aren't closed in bureaucratic systems, if it is not done, the search will be held off indefinitely. Is that a risk? That this could be, that this could be held off indefinitely?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: No, that's, no. That's not, that's not even anywhere close to being a reality. Our premier has made it explicitly clear time and time again, not only to the public and to the citizens that elected us, but the Premier has made it clear to the family. We met with the families and the premier opened that relationship, first off with an apology and second off with a pipe ceremony. That is sacred work. That's a sacred commitment and that search will happen.

MG: There's a man who is facing first-degree murder charges for these two deaths, and also for the deaths of two other women, Rebecca Contois, and a woman whose body is yet to be identified. But the community has named her Buffalo Woman. His trial is set to begin in April. He's pled not guilty. When it comes to timing, is your sense that families will have a timeline? This is going to be an incredibly difficult moment when this trial begins. Is your sense that families will have a timeline for the search before then.

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: Again, we're hopeful that we're going to be meeting with the family in the next couple of weeks, and we'll have a plan to present to the families. We want to work with the families and honour the families, but more importantly, honour the women that were thought of so little in their lives, that this is their final resting place. And that is our main motivation for doing this and making sure that it's done in a good way and in an expedited way.

MG: That report talked about some of the--and you've hinted at this--some of the specifics in terms of what this search would look like. And one of the things that's raised, and this was raised by the previous government as well, is the dangers of this search. That within this landfill could be asbestos that would be perhaps released into the air. This could be a major health hazard. How are you going to go about mitigating those risks?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: The folks that are kind of partnered in this path to searching have said that it can be done in a good and safe way, and so that's what we're looking towards, that everybody that works on this is safe. But then, you know, that it, those risks can be mitigated.

MG: Is money at all a consideration in this in terms of, this will cost money as well? And it seems to some people crass and offensive to talk about money. But at the same time, this is part of that larger conversation around how this will unfold. When you're thinking about the cost of a search like this, how are you, how are you evaluating that?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: I think that, you know, at the end of the day, what our government wants, what our premier and myself alongside, you know, the rest of our cabinet and our caucus, which has the most Indigenous representation ever elected to any parliament or legislature, want to do this work in a good way and want to make families whole. And that is our main motivation.

MG: When you say in a good way, what does that mean to you? And I just wonder, I mean, again, talking about the cabinet and your own background, whether you feel additional pressure to meet that mark?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: No. Not necessarily. I think that, you know, everybody, you know, let me just say this: is that those women, those sacred women that are lying in a landfill, again, who were thought so less of during their lives and then during this last political campaign. Ultimately, they were the ones that helped change government. They were the ones that Manitobans rallied around and supported and rejected the politics of racism on the backs of Indigenous women. And so, this is a collective response to such a horrific situation. And so, we all feel it. All of us want to do this in a good way and make families whole. And those women deserve to be made whole.

MG: How much of the delay and debate around this search do you think is indicative of a larger issue within our political system, but broadly, within this country, about how to tackle the violence towards Indigenous women and girls?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: You know, there, it's no secret. And most of the public understands that there is a level of systemic violence that's perpetrated against the bodies of Indigenous women, girls and two-spirited, across, you know, the country from coast to coast to coast. And, you know, Manitoba in many respects is ground zero. Manitoba and B.C. And we are doing the work to be able to prioritize the protection of Indigenous women and girls and look at prevention. You know, we need to be looking at work that prevents any more missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. And that's what our government is committed to. And again, I would say, and I would submit to you, and I've been doing this work for a long time, 25 years. And, you know, when I started doing this work, to where we are now, we have seen a significant shift among the population, among Canadians who understand that this is an issue. And that's important. Because it's Canadians who elect the politicians who then have the legislation and hold the purse strings. And so coupled with that, I think it's really important to elect governments that are committed to tackling the issue of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls and two-spirited. That's important, particularly as we're moving into a federal election right now. You know, elect those representatives that actually see Indigenous women as human beings, as sacred and as valued, and that are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

MG: Can I just ask you, finally, you're a politician. You've been doing this work for a long time. You talk about human beings. You're a human being as well. And I just wonder, what's it been like for you to watch the story of the search in this landfill unfold the way it has over the past few years?

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: Yeah, I, you know, as an Indigenous woman, I'll be completely honest, to see the way that this unfolded from the very beginning of when he preyed upon these women, it is enraging. It's enraging to see the way that Indigenous women, girls and two-spirited are so devalued and are considered disposable. You know, I look, I go to a vigil and memorials and all of these things, and I always look at the little, the young ones, the little girls. And I always think like, I'm hoping that this stops, that those little girls are not the next ones to go missing and murdered. And so, folks like myself and Sandra DeLaronde and Minister Smith, it is our sacred responsibility to do this work and to fight as hard as we can for that next generation.

MG: That's a heavy weight to carry. I mean, I can hear it in your voice. That's a lot.

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: Mhm. But I've been put in this path, and it really is what I care about the most. And it is about protecting Indigenous women, girls and two-spirit. And I will do that for as long as I'm in this role, and for as long as there's a breath in me.

MG: Nahanni Fontaine, I'm really grateful to have the chance to talk to you. Thank you very much.

NAHANNI FOUNTAINE: Meegwetch.

MG: Nahanni Fountaine is the minister of families, accessibility and gender equity in Manitoba. She mentioned Sandra DeLaronde, longtime advocate for missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls and their families. She's also a lecturer at the University of Winnipeg. On the 231 calls for justice that came out of the final Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Inquiry report in 2019. Sandra is also in our Winnipeg studio. Sandra, good morning to you.

SANDRA DELARONDE: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thank you for being here. What were you hoping to see from this new NDP government when it came to taking action on that landfill search?

SANDRA DELARONDE: I think we're seeing it. You know, there was a really difficult time through the election process where the family members and all of our community were confronted with billboards saying if they were elected, if the conservatives were elected, they weren't going to dig. Like even using that term. And so having to see that every day was very disconcerting for all of us. It's unfortunate that our lives as Indigenous women, girls and our gender diverse relatives have to be a political issue.

MG: Do you mind me asking, you mentioned those billboards during the election. What was the message that those billboards, saying, you know, we won't do the search. That we'll, I think it's that they'll hold firm on not doing the search and what have you. And you said that they would use the word 'dig.' That they weren't going to dig in that landfill. What was the message, do you think that it sent to Indigenous women and girls living in the province?

SANDRA DELARONDE: It sent a message that we didn't matter to this government.

MG: That's what you think that the message was, plain and simple?

SANDRA DELARONDE: Absolutely. Plain and simply. And what it also meant to serial killers or individuals that had no value for our lives, it meant that they could go ahead and continue to take our women and girls and gender diverse people and dispose of them without any consequence.

MG: And that report from the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs hinted at that, saying that if this search doesn't occur as soon as possible, there could be a precedent that, would-be serial killers fixated--this is from the report--fixated on killing First Nations women are left the impression that inaction isn't going to be followed up with action. That this could leave them free and clear in some ways.

SANDRA DELARONDE: Oh, for sure. That's the message that it sent. That's the message since the report of the AJI (Aboriginal Justice Inquiry) in 1999, and every report since then that has fallen on deaf ears with no action. So, of course, those that take the lives of our loved ones think that they can get away with it because they have gotten away with it year after year, generation after generation. So now is the time to create that change. And fortunately, in Manitoba, we have a government that are our family, that have fought and raised their voices alongside of each of us for change, and now they're in a place where they can create change.

MG: Does that change how people see government? When they see themselves in that government?

SANDRA DELARONDE: Absolutely. And we see it in the eyes, in the hearts of the young children who see themselves in the ministers. That see themselves in the decision makers.

MG: And the premier.

SANDRA DELARONDE: And the premier. And that makes a difference.

MG: You're working with a government committee on setting up a 'Red Dress' alert. The alert would work like an Amber alert. Is that right?

SANDRA DELARONDE: It could work like an Amber alert. The system is in place. Or it could happen differently. What has to happen differently is that there has to be family members and community involved in determining when an alert goes forward. That is very clear.

MG: And this would be, if somebody from the community were to go missing, that this would allow resources to be mobilized in an expeditious way.

SANDRA DELARONDE: Right. It's not just calling for an alert to say that someone's missing. It's also providing resources and support to family. And once the individual has been found, providing wraparound supports for that individual as well.

MG: You, like the minister, have been doing this work for a long time. And there's a weight to this work that you carry, and that weight can be really heavy, as well. With that on your shoulders, on your back, what is it that keeps you going? What is it that keeps you fighting as an advocate?

SANDRA DELARONDE: Mm. Well, you know, I've been at this a long time, and I have seen change. I've seen positive change and I've seen negative change. But holding my hope on the positive change that has occurred. And love. You know? We love our families, and we love our communities, and they love us. And that's what keeps us going.

MG: Do you mind me asking who you were thinking of or what you were thinking of when you paused before you answered?

SANDRA DELARONDE: Well, I think of my grandchildren. You know, I often, I never took my daughter to vigils or marches because I was, because those that, while we have community support, there are also predators that attend those events. So, you know, I want to be able to take the little ones to places with community where they can celebrate our strengths and not worry about, you know, getting taken.

MG: And you want to create that better world for them?

SANDRA DELARONDE: Absolutely.

MG: Thanks for the work that you're doing, and thanks for telling us about it.

SANDRA DELARONDE: Thank you.

MG: Take care.

SANDRA DELARONDE: You too.

MG: Sandra DeLaronde is a long-time advocate for missing and murdered Indigenous women, girls, and their families. She's in Winnipeg.

[Music: Instrumental]

Cree artist Jordan Stranger

Guests: Jordan Stranger

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway. You walk around Winnipeg, and you will come across some stunning Indigenous art. It's on murals, on billboards, in public spaces. Several pieces of that art were done by Jordan Stranger to mark Manitoba's 150th anniversary. He was also commissioned to create the city's 150th celebration emblem. Jordan is a Cree artist and graphic designer from the Peguis First Nation, and we've reached him at The Forks, where he is sitting in a tepee. Jordan, hello.

JORDAN STRANGER: Hi.

MG: For people who've never been to Winnipeg, what is The Forks and why is there a tepee there?

JORDAN STRANGER: Yeah. This is where they share elder knowledge and stories. And The Forks is a natural gathering place for thousands of years. And I have some artwork here, inside.

MG: Can you describe the artwork?

JORDAN STRANGER: It's about six murals. It was commissioned for the Manitoba 150. And they're all murals just sharing my culture. The colour of it. Togetherness, animals, nature, that type of stuff.

MG: What does it mean for you to have that work there?

JORDAN STRANGER: It's a big deal for me, leaving a bit more of our culture in the public view. Now, when I started, Totem Doodem, it was to share the culture in the public by wheatpasting. I didn't see enough of Indigenous art in public, so I just did it myself. And someone caught wind of that, and I got hired and it was wonderful.

MG: Tell me more about that. You didn't see enough of that art. And so what were you doing?

JORDAN STRANGER: I was wheatpasting. Illegally.

MG: Like sticking the art up around the city

JORDAN STRANGER: Yeah, yeah, just like with flour paste, you know. And hand-painting my own pieces and going around town and putting them up. And people started to notice that, and it became, you know, what you see today in my works.

MG: How did you decide to do that? It's like guerrilla artwork, like bringing the art to the people.

JORDAN STRANGER: You know, I come from a reservation from Peguis. And I had issues with authority for good reason. And I was inspired by street art. A lot of graffiti artists that I follow, and one big one, which is Shepard Fairey, who had made a huge poster of Obama, you know, the Hope poster. And that made it around the world. And I thought, well, we can do that with our own work. And it made an impact. And now I'm doing it full time as a self-employed artist.

MG: What do people tell you when they saw your work? I mean, part of this would be, I guess they would wonder who's behind this and what's going on. But once word started to spread, what did you hear from people?

JORDAN STRANGER: I think there are more curious as to why. But people loved what they saw because it was different. It was similar to Norval Morrisseau for the colour and Daphne Odjig for the organics. I learned from the greats, and I just tried my best to make my own way, my own style.

MG: What do you remember about the art that you saw when you were growing up?

JORDAN STRANGER: Well, I was seeing a lot of family influence. So my Uncle Stewart Stranger from Peguis, my Uncle Leslie Sinclair, you know, they started painting on cardboard. And they evolved into these really, really well-refined artists. I started seeing more and more of it in everybody's home and every business on the reservation and around Winnipeg. And that, you know, really impressed me. I thought, this is interesting. These guys are doing it for a hobby. What if I tried doing it full-time?

MG: What did you think you could bring?

JORDAN STRANGER: My own stories. Stories that I never saw that were being shared.

MG: Like what?

JORDAN STRANGER: Sacred stories. Stuff that is powerful. Messages of hope. Things that I wasn't seeing like that growing up. The res-school mentality was still very present, and there was a lot of negativity about sharing anything of our culture. And now we have the chance, and we have that prosperity, and we're getting a bit more of that every day now.

MG: I mean, you go from postering up your own artwork to being asked to commission the design for the graphic that would celebrate the 150th anniversary of Winnipeg. What was that opportunity like for you?

JORDAN STRANGER: I was honoured. It's a good marking point of where we are today, in this country, in this province. To remember that moving forward so that we don't make the same mistakes and that this is a constant reminder to, you know, be more mindful of where we live today. It's not the same as it was 150 years ago.

MG: Can you describe that graphic? Just give us a picture of what that graphic looks like.

JORDAN STRANGER: Well, it has, the main centre of the image is the two rivers coming together. The Red and Assiniboine. And then there is a face of a female which, they carry those sacred water teachings. And up on top we have the sun. And transitioning into winter, you know, on the plains. And the North star is there. And on the bottom right of it is the path to reconciliation, surrounded by some sage, which is sacred medicine we lay down in our sacred ceremonies in Ojibwe culture. That's so we walk carefully and safely and walk with the buffalo. And there's also reference to the plains and the winds and the turtle shell of the Turtle Island story. They all kind of sit on top of that.

MG: The path to reconciliation. It features two footprints, right?

JORDAN STRANGER: Yeah.

MG: What do those footprints symbolize?

JORDAN STRANGER: That long journey we're all on right now. And still finding those children. And that's a thing that we need to solve soon. Everybody's included in this path to reconciliation, and that's why it's important to have it there, because a lot of people are still learning today. It's a bit of sorrow, but I think that's something we all have to face. And, you know, how things have evolved since then. I think it's our duty to recognize these things as people of this country and our respective nations.

MG: So in addition to this, you were commissioned to do another project. This is for the Manitoba legislature. And this is with your dad. Tell me about that.

JORDAN STRANGER: I remember when the Queen Victoria statue was pulled down and they were discussing, you know, whether to replace it. And then I got a call from my dad saying he got interest from them. But there was an open call for that competition, and we ended up getting the bid. And that statue's going to be about Chief Peguis himself. It will be standing approximately, I would say, 16 feet tall. The base, the design of the plinth is my responsibility. That's about six feet tall and it's made of tyndall stone. And it's going to have the 1817 agreement of the Lord Selkirk settlers. And it's to tell that story that we as Indigenous people actually had a peaceful agreement between us and Europeans, before that was, you know, all changed with the Indian Act. And that's to sort of commemorate that partnership moving forward and remembering that story.

MG: You're a dad now. You have two children. What do you think about when you think about the future that they might inhabit, given who you are and the stories that you tell through your work?

JORDAN STRANGER: I would hope that they never have to do or live through what we had to, and I don't think they will. That's why we're doing these things. That's why we commemorate these moments. So that they don't happen again. You know, these atrocities, these horrible moments. I think they're going to have a lot of opportunity. And a lot has happened in the last 20 years. And that says a whole lot about how fast things can change. And this road of reconciliation we're on is going to take a long time. I'm realistic of that because I understand it, because I grew up in that. For my kids, they're going to have the benefits of our hard work and the benefits of that prosperity, which we're getting finally today. Not to say they're going to be one up on everyone else. There's going to be some divides, and there's a lot of perspectives to change, but there's a lot more hope than there ever was.

MG: I'm really glad to meet you. Thanks for taking time to talk to us.

JORDAN STRANGER: Thank you.

MG: Jordan Stranger is a Cree artist in Winnipeg. That is The Current for this Monday. Q is up next right here on CBC Radio One, and we'll have some more special programming coming to you from Winnipeg this week. Tomorrow night we're recording a special live show in front of a sold-out audience here. Special guests include the premier, Wab Kinew, and we'll have music on stage from the great William Prince. Cannot wait to have him singing next to us. We'll bring you that special program right here on CBC Radio Wednesday morning. My name is Matt Galloway in Winnipeg. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you soon.

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Monday February 12, 2024 Full Transcript

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