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The Current Transcript for January 23, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue [Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: We know that they have at times experienced more prolonged pain and reduced quality of life, and in many cases, they have suffered while they wait.

MATT GALLOWAY: They are the doctors who manage pain and put you to sleep when you're getting surgery, and there aren't enough of them. Provinces are warning of a shortage of anesthesiologists in Canada. In 30 minutes: the burnout and retirement crises that are having real impacts in the operating room. Also, this morning, it's being pitched as the future of computing. It isn't on your wrist or in your pocket. It looks like a pair of ski goggles, and you wear it strapped to your face. Coming up, why Apple says augmented reality is better than what you see through your own eyes, and whether people will actually pay the hefty price tag to find out. Plus:

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RACHEL NOTLEY: If there's any one accomplishment that I can leave behind, it's that we are not a one-party province where Albertans have no real choice about how their province is to be run.

MATT GALLOWAY: Rachel Notley broke a conservative stronghold when her New Democratic Party won the Alberta election in 2015. Last week, after two subsequent defeats, she announced she's stepping down as party leader. In an hour: Rachel Notley on pipelines, polarization and what she says the rest of Canada doesn't understand about Alberta. But we begin with a desperate call for foster parents. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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Foster parent shortages across Canada

Guests: Mary Beth Moellenkamp and Kevin Harris

MG: Roger and Suzanne Sevigny have been foster parents in Nova Scotia for more than 50 years. They estimate that they have fostered more than 200 kids.

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[Music: Melodic instrumental]

SUZANNE SEVIGNY: If we had not been foster parents, I think our life would be very boring.

ROGER SEVIGNY: We really need more foster families. There just aren't enough placements.

SUZANNE SEVIGNY: Children need to be loved. I believe if we can give, we should.

ROGER SEVIGNY: Everybody deserves a chance to develop to their full potential.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's from a video released a few years ago by the Nova Scotia government. That province still needs foster parents. And according to Foster Care Nova Scotia, there are currently more children who need help than there are foster parents. This is true in other parts of the country as well. Social workers in Montreal also say they're running out of homes for foster kids. But as you can imagine, being a caregiver is a hard pitch. Mary Beth Moellenkamp is the CEO of the Peel Children's Aid Society in Ontario. Good morning.

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: What sort of shortage is Peel facing when it comes to foster parents?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Yeah. So, while the number of children in care has remained consistently low, specifically in Peel Region and across the province, we're seeing an increase in the percentage of children and youth with significant complex needs. Whether that be a child or youth with mental health, developmental delay or behavioural challenges. Our existing internal foster care resources is reaching its limit, and we are continuously looking for new foster caregivers to come help and support children and youth who can better help us meet the needs of these children. And also avoid us from looking at external foster care as an option.

MATT GALLOWAY: Can you go back to something that you said right off the top, which is that there are fewer children in care but a greater need?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Mhm.

MG: Why are there fewer children in care? Is that because kids are being kept within family?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Absolutely. There's a commitment across the child welfare system in Ontario to make sure that children and youth stay at home with families in their communities. We know that children and youth do better in Peel Region, for example, we're a population of 1.5 million, we see close to 10 to 11,000 referrals per year, and we have less than 150 children in care. That's because of early intervention, supports better partnerships with community providers, and social infrastructure and programs that help us to make sure that children and youth can remain with their families.

MG: That's a good news story in some ways.

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Absolutely.

MG: But as you mentioned, there is a shortage of foster parents.

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Yes.

MG: Why is that the case? What's going on? Why aren't why aren't there are enough, right now, foster parents?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: I think there's a number of factors. I think in terms of, you know, why we may see the shortage. One is the ageing population of our foster caregivers. We have foster caregivers who are retiring and not enough new caregivers who are stepping forward. I also think that sometimes caregivers have some questions about what the support may look like for a foster caregiver. Different notions about what someone thinks a foster caregiver should look like. You don't necessarily need to have a two-parent family. And it may be preventing some people from stepping forward. And I think we're also seeing a concern in relation to cost of living increases. Foster caregivers do need to be able to provide for their families and their own children. Children's Aid Societies do provide per diem supports and supports for a child's complexities. But when we see increases in interest rates and we see increases, youknow, or different challenges around food insecurity, sometimes caregivers are making that question around or asking that question as to whether or not that they can open their home and really provide those supports for a child or youth in need.

MG: What are you hearing from potential foster parents about why they aren't stepping forward? I mean, it's a huge decision to do this. You are living outside of your own needs in some ways and bringing literally bringing somebody else into your family. Because it's something that they need and it's the right thing to do. But what's the resistance? Is it about those factors that you mentioned, or is there something else that's going on generationally, perhaps that is not leading people to take that step?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Yeah, I think that's always a possibility that there may be, you know, different sort of generational views around, you know, the impact that fostering can have. I also think that when we're looking at, as I said, the cost of living or we're looking at even demystifying what it looks like to be a foster caregiver and the supports that are in place. You know, we have robust training programs, supports with social workers, supports for child and youth workers who can come and help support a caregiver. And we work with community partners to make sure that they have those needs available and that they're met. But it's really about getting the message out and engaging with our community to first understand the need and let them know that there are supports available to help them.

MG: Let's just talk a bit more about the need. Peel launched this recruitment campaign, and it said that foster parents are urgently needed.

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Absolutely.

MG: So, speak to the urgency of this.

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Yeah. I mean, one of the things I shared is that we believe that children should be placed in family-based settings, and so we always try first to look for kinship caregivers. So, aunts, uncles, grandparents, people who know the child and can stay connected. But when we don't have that available, then we look to our community for support. It's important for us that our foster caregivers are also reflective of our community. So not only are we looking for foster caregivers who have specialized skills and training, whether that be nursing skills or whether that be supports working with young people who may have had mental health challenges. We are in one of the most diverse regions in Canada, and we want to make sure that our foster caregivers are reflective of our community.

MG: Are you finding that those diverse communities are stepping up, that they're, that they see the need here in that they see the responsibility as something that they can shoulder?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Yes, they do see the need. I think sometimes it's also about education and understanding what we may specifically be looking for. We also know that Peel Region has a high newcomer population. And sometimes newcomers are trying to just settle and connect into the community. And so, we're really trying to do that outreach, so they understand that because of, again, the diversity, we want to make sure that we're connecting the child with a caregiver that meets their race, ethnicity, culture, sexual orientation and gender identity. That's really important for a child to feel connected to a family and to feel supported, especially in one of the most vulnerable times in their lives.

MG: And so, facing this urgent need. Where do you place children for whom you don't have a foster home?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: So, Children's Aid Societies always have to find a placement for a child or youth. When we've determined that a child is at risk, we need to make sure that they're best supported. So, we are looking at our internal homes, and if not, we're looking for external foster placements.

MG: What is that? What does that mean? External foster placements.

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: So, an external foster placement may be from a private operator who is providing foster homes or group care settings. And we look at what's in the best interests of that child based on that setting. The challenge for us is those sometimes are outside of our region. And we really want to keep children as close to their communities as possible, because we know that facilitates better connections with family, better connections with community, and helps to facilitate reunification.

MG: What are you most concerned about if this shortage continues?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: I'm most concerned that we won't have the right placements for children and youth at the right time. And, you know, we really want to make sure that we're doing this proactively. That's why we are doing this campaign to call out to our community. These challenges are not just for Peel. We're seeing this across the province as well. So, we're asking for caregivers in our community to connect with us and have a conversation about how they might be able to support. But even if they're outside of Peel to connect with their local Children's Aid Society because the need exists across Ontario.

MG: So, in the last 90 seconds that we have, make the pitch for people.

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: I would say if you are a caregiver in Peel, if you can give back, community, caring for community is really important for our children and youth and it's a wonderful, rewarding experience and we really hope that you'll have a conversation with us and hear about all the supports and resources that might be available to you.

MG: And for people who think that it's too much...To your point, life is expensive, life is complicated and busy, and people are just--many people are just keeping their heads above water or trying to keep their heads above water. What would you say to them?

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: I would say that, you know, as Children's Aid Societies, we are doing everything possible to make sure that we are financially meeting the needs of our caregivers and our children and youth and that we are flexible in terms of providing those supports and anything that we can do to kind of demystify some of those notions or provide that support. We're committed to providing the best possible care for children and youth.

MG: Mary Beth Moellenkamp, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

MARY BETH MOELLENKAMP: Thank you so much.

MG: Mary Beth Moellenkamp is the CEO of the Peel Children's Aid Society in Ontario. Kevin Harris and his wife, Lori-Lee, have been foster parents for the past 25 years. He is president of the Canadian Foster Family Association, and he and Lori-Lee also run training programs for new foster parents across Saskatchewan. We've reached him on Treaty 4 Territory, East of Regina. Kevin, good morning to you.

KEVIN HARRIS: Good morning.

MG: 25 years ago, why did you decide that you wanted to become a foster parent? What was it that urged you to take that step forward?

KEVIN HARRIS: It was primarily we became aware of the need. We were in a situation with our own children that were getting older, and we were made aware of situations where kids needed places to be and needed a safe place, a safe home to be loved and cared for, for the period of time that their families were struggling. And so, we signed up and volunteered. We actually were thinking about adoption. And then we were told about foster care, and we thought, this is something that we can do as a family.

MG: You could see that need. But taking the step, actually doing something is another level. And I just wonder, what was it that led you not just to acknowledge that there's a need that's there, but to say, you know, we could do something about. And this is going to change our lives, and there could be a cost to it and what have you, but that we feel like we could do something.

KEVIN HARRIS: We really believe in children. Kids are worth it. And it became a passion for us to do whatever we could do to help a family that was in crisis. Because that's what we need to do. It just became common sense for us from that point of view.

MG: Hm. How did it change your household? I mean, you could have a very busy household with new additions. What was it like?

KEVIN HARRIS: It was awesome. You know, our kids really took to it. We've been privileged to have long term relationships with our children, and it became. Yeah. It became part of our norm. And our older children participated in it and were just, I mean, it was, it was really great. It was an experience that our kids have taken forward as well and, you know, as they're beginning to build their own families, who knows what they will do next.

MG: We heard about what's happening in Peel Region, as you understand it, as president of the Canadian Foster Family Association, how serious are shortages across this country for foster families?

KEVIN HARRIS: I think there may not be in the crisis mode as we heard earlier, but there's always a need. Right across the province, all territories and provinces we're always recruiting because the need is always going to be there. And so, we can't predict the number of families that may need that support. And so, there is an ongoing recruitment effort in every region of this country. And the need is great. There's no doubt, no doubt about it. You know, whether people are retiring or moving to different areas, that need is always going to be there as long as families struggle.

MG: We know that there has also been criticism of Children's Aid Societies, for example, and the process, which has changed, as Mary Beth said, of removing children from families, and putting them in care. And that has led to stories about foster care in the news that aren't particularly good stories. How much of that do you think has been a factor in terms of a turn off for potential foster parents?

KEVIN HARRIS: I think that is probably a part of it. But I think the stories, the positive stories that are coming out-- the one that you just played earlier today--is, you know, it's starting to change that perspective. And that's really what it's all about, is people understanding the truth behind it and the types of training that's available. And part of becoming a foster parent is like none other. And so we do get very qualified individuals that really, you know, have the heart, but also have the experience and the knowledge to help these kids through their tough times.

MG: Let me ask you about the training in a moment. But one of the things we know in this country is that there are groups that are vastly overrepresented within the foster care system, particularly indigenous children. And the criticism, as I mentioned earlier, is that indigenous children are being taken from families, from their cultures and put into cultures that are very different, that they may not feel comfortable in, that they may not recognize, what have you. How well has the foster system done to respond to that criticism? Do you think?

KEVIN HARRIS: Well, that, you know, and you're right. There is an overrepresentation within the child welfare of indigenous children, especially in some of our provinces. Saskatchewan in Manitoba, for sure.

MG: Yeah.

KEVIN HARRIS: We know that for sure. Part of that is recruiting indigenous families to participate and be able to care for children back in their community. We recognize and understand that the best scenario is for a child to be in their community, in their culture, in, you know, where their extended family is. And so, when that is not possible, then we all get called to do that. My wife and I are non-Indigenous, and we've been privileged to have two indigenous children in our home, and they have been a blessing to us. And I think a big part of that is understanding of what we need to do differently to reflect their culture and help them make that connection to family, make that connection to where they come from, and to be proud of being an indigenous person.

MG: Do you mind if I ask you about that? What did you need to do differently when you had indigenous children in your home?

KEVIN HARRIS: We needed to bring them to their communities. We needed to find their extended family and connect them with them and have them become part of our world and for us to become part of their world. And so part of that is to be educated and learn and understand what residential school did, and the effects of that. And the other pieces that make the indigenous culture so rich and so beautiful. And it's to connect them to that through culture, camps, taking them to Powwow, taking them to their world that is reflective of who they are.

MG: Is that part of the training that potential foster parents get. In terms of understanding past trauma, but also figuring out the role that they play in addressing that and helping young people connect with their own culture, with who they are.

KEVIN HARRIS: It is a big part of the training. Every province and territory has a little bit different training, things that they do. But each one of them does talk about the culture of the children and connecting them back to that. In Saskatchewan, we have mandatory cultural training that is taught by indigenous leaders to help us understand the culture and the uniqueness of it and start bridging those gaps. So, to make us feel more comfortable to be part of taking children into those communities.

MG: Can I ask you about funding? I mean, one of the things that Mary Beth acknowledged is that life is expensive and that it's an additional it's, you know, a gift to foster families and a huge service to the community and to those foster kids. But it's expensive. And it can be an additional outlay. There are provinces that have increased the stipends that foster parents get, but how much of a difference would it make, especially now if there was more money that was available to attract people to this role?

KEVIN HARRIS: Yeah, I think it would help. Most people that, when we interact with them coming into foster care, becoming foster parents, the cost of it never is a conversation. It's more...

MG: It's never a conversation?

KEVIN HARRIS: ...Not--and one of the primary factors that they come in saying, I am doing this because we're going to get paid for it, or that I'm not going to do this because I'm not going to get enough. The finances become a secondary. It's more about, I want to help and do what I can. But you're right. I mean, the cost of living is crazy right now, right? And so, most of the provinces and territories do provide a level of funding. Is it enough? Probably not. But again, as I said, most people that we are in contact with, the funding is important, but it's not one of the decision points that we have found anyway.

MG: What's the biggest misconception that people have about being a foster parent?

KEVIN HARRIS: I don't think I can have attach to a child knowing that they're going to be taken away. And that and that is the big thing that we try to help them understand is that if you don't attach to those children, if they don't bond with you, then you're not helping our children heal. And healing and relationships are extremely important. And so that's the biggest misconception is that I don't think I can do this because I don't want my heart to be broken. That comes with the territory and that comes with expectation that if my heart's broken, but if I can heal a child's heart, then that's worth it.

MG: You've done this for 25 years, and so just in the last minute that we have, how has this changed you and how has it changed your life? It's a selfless task in some ways. Like you, there's a real generosity at the heart of this.

KEVIN HARRIS: The rewards are being, seeing children grow and mature and become healthy. And to see them going on and helping others makes it all worth it. It's just, it's part of, you know, if we don't do this, our society is going to be broken. Bottom line and there's children are our future. And so investing in them in whatever way possible will have dividends without a question.

MG: Thanks for doing this. But also thanks for talking to us about the work that you've done, Kevin, thank you.

KEVIN HARRIS: My pleasure.

MG: Kevin Harris, president of the Canadian Foster Family Association, also chair of the board, The Saskatchewan Foster Families. If you are a foster parent or you have lived in a foster home, we'd love to hear your experience. In the face of, as I say, a shortage of foster families. You can email us at the current@cbc.ca. Your CBC News is coming up next. And then:

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SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: If you're from a low-income, working-class community, you're, you know, even farther behind in terms of accessing surgery than other people in Canada. And unfortunately, this is not a new pattern.

MG: Those delays in surgeries, due in part to a shortage of anesthesiologists in some parts of the country, there are only about half as many of these specialists as needed. We'll talk more about why: coming up in six minutes. And also ahead, my conversation with the outgoing leader of Alberta's NDP, Rachel Notley, on her legacy, politics and the people of her province. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

Lack of anesthesiologists affecting surgeries

Guests: Dr. Kevin Gregg and Dr. Lucie Filteau

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Kelly Konieczn got an unexpected call earlier this month. She has chronic kidney disease and has been waiting for a living kidney donor for more than four years. On this call, though, Kelly found out that her wait would only get longer. She was told that the transplant agency for Northern Alberta is temporarily pulling out of the National Kidney Paired Donation Program.

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KELLY KONIECZN: I was shocked because I would have never thought that this was a possibility, and I felt like we just had the rug pulled out from under us, and we need these transplants in order to survive. And with my situation, I have a rare 100 per cent antibody sensitivity, meaning that a match for me is going to be even harder. So, I need to be in like a Canada wide program to greater my chances in finding somebody who will actually be my miracle.

MG: This program is being paused partly due to a lack of anesthesiologists, and the shortage isn't just causing issues for kidney transplants. Dr. Kevin Gregg is president of the anesthesia section of the Alberta Medical Association. He's in Edmonton. Dr. Gregg, good morning.

DR. KEVIN GREGG: Good morning. How are you doing?

MG: I'm well, thanks. How did the shortage of anesthesiologists impact the kidney paired donation program in Northern Alberta, as you understand it?

DR. KEVIN GREGG: So, my understanding is that the program has suspended daytime live donorship in terms of living donors. Which is obviously a large portion of the donorship. We've been short for a few years now in Edmonton and Alberta and across the country, and there's actually a global shortage looming, if not already here.

MG: Hm.

DR. KEVIN GREGG: A large part of this is just ageing demographics and burnout, retirements, people kind of slowing down their practices because they're burned out and kind of the inability to keep up with trainees. At the pace at which people are retiring or leaving the practice.

MG: How short are you? I've read somewhere upwards of 20, 25 per cent.

DR. KEVIN GREGG: Yeah, that's probably accurate. I know in the Edmonton zone we have five sites, three of them right now, are at least 20 per cent short. Some of the sites across the province, Red Deer is in a real crunch right now. I've heard up to almost 50 per cent short of...

MG: Wow.

DR. KEVIN GREGG: ...What we call the FTE, which is the full time equivalent. Now, that's not necessarily bodies, but, you know, how much people are working as well. You know, the numbers I've heard Canada wide, at least 300.

MG: So, there are 300 positions for anesthesiologists that are not being filled right now?

DR. KEVIN GREGG: That's in the ballpark of what I heard. Yes.

MG: You ran down some. You ran down some of the reasons why. Just give us a broader sense. You mentioned burnout as one?

DR. KEVIN GREGG: Yeah. I mean, during COVID, my group at the hospital I work at is between 50 and 60 people. We lost 12 people during COVID. Some moved to other provinces, some kind of packed it in and retired because they were approaching their retirement age and decided they had enough. You know, the days are getting longer and longer. The morale at the hospitals has not been great in the last two years for a number of reasons. And so people, you know, and there's a large demographic of my colleagues that are in the retirement age and some are just saying, "okay, I've had enough. I'm out." You know, a lot of people have stepped up to pick up that work. We have a lot of volunteer work happening, kind of in addition to what people are currently scheduled to work.

MG: So how long would the days be?

DR. KEVIN GREGG: You know, a standard day at the hospital I work at is about nine hours. But we also do call on top of that. Our second call shift is 18 hours, and then the main call shift is between 16 and 24, depending on if it's a weekday or weekend. So, you know, 60 hours a week is probably an average week.

MG: I also heard part of this is also about an ageing population requiring more surgeries. That part of it is there a fewer anesthesiologist, but you're doing more work because more people require your services.

DR. KEVIN GREGG: One hundred per cent. You know, in Alberta one of the big talked about issues has been arthroplasty, which is hip and knee replacement. And we know that as people age, arthritis gets worse. And, you know, there's a large ageing population in Canada and more and more people are needing hip and knee surgeries than ever before. We're also treating, you know, much more complex cases than we would have, you know, 20 years ago in terms of advance in technology. That means that people that wouldn't have had surgery previously or wouldn't have been eligible are now having surgery. Which adds on. And, you know, the cancer rate increases, the obesity rate's going up. And all of those lead to complications and often surgeries result from those complications.

MG: So let me bring another voice into this conversation because I want to talk more about the impact of this, but also just what's going on more broadly. Dr. Lucie Filteau is president of the Canadian Anesthesiologists’ Society. She's in Ottawa. Dr. Filteau, good morning to you.

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Good morning.

MG: So, we heard Dr. Gregg talking about what's happening in Alberta. But also, he was speaking more broadly about what's happening across the country. I see, maybe it's just the algorithm, but I see ads popping up on social media for anesthesiologists from various provinces. People trying to lure anesthesiologists to Saskatchewan, to Alberta, for example. How serious is this? Is this shortage?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: I think that Dr. Gregg characterized the situation very accurately. And what he has mentioned is that it is happening across the country. And the picture that he painted for Alberta is very much happening in all the provinces.

MG: Can you just explain what you do, what anesthesiologists do? Because I think there are some people who you're only experiences the mask is on your face and you count backwards from ten. And you get ten, nine. And that's the end of the conversation. So, explain what it is that you do.

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Certainly. Fifty per cent of the population actually doesn't know that we're physicians. There was a recent survey published regarding the public perception. And they don't know that to be an anesthesiologist means that you've undergone four years of medical school training and then five years of specialty training after that to learn how to give people anesthetics. And it's a complex process. You have to have an in-depth knowledge of physiology, how the body works pathophysiology, how diseases work. Pharmacology, which is how medicines work, and then an understanding of surgical procedures. And on a moment-to-moment basis while we're looking after people in the operating room, because we're there the whole time, you're controlling heart rate, blood pressure, breathing. People are essentially on life support. Their temperature, their blood loss, hydration, muscle relaxation. It's a complicated process.

MG: You're not just putting people to sleep you're keeping them alive.

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: And waking them up again. And that is the art.

MG: The art. Dr. Gregg, when there are fewer anesthesiologists than required, what sort of decisions need to be made?

DR. KEVIN GREGG: So, you know, two big ones. One is surgical capacity. And so, you know, in Alberta, we've given AHS, Alberta Health Services, the operations team, the availability of, you know, what we have for scheduling. And at the end of the day, the operations team makes a decision on which surgeries get prioritized. And so, you know, cancer surgery has been one of the big ones that's been prioritized. And that may require pulling people or closing rooms for other services or other surgeries that, you know, are considered lower priority by whoever's making the decision.

MG: Like what?

DR. KEVIN GREGG: We're seeing, you know, some of the semi-cosmetic type stuff. Some of the quality-of-life stuff has been changed. I know our ENT service has days closed with some frequency. And that would be, you know, people that have had obstructed nasal passages or had a broken nose--fixing those, you know, for long term effects, not urgent surgery. But people have sleep apnea, that kind of thing and having nose surgeries. Hernia surgery, I believe was deprioritized by the government here a couple of years ago. And that was actually talking about being delisted. Some of the quality-of-life, gynecologic surgeries, you know, may not have the same speed that we'd like to get them done in.

MG: Dr. Filteau, you see this across the country?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Absolutely. And these decisions are made sometimes that are provincial level and sometimes at an individual hospital level. And so, but everybody is facing the same decisions. We have a limited number of resources. And how are we going to distribute them? Somebody suffers in the end because their surgery is postponed.

MG: Is there anywhere where this shortage of anesthesiologists is being felt particularly acutely, Dr. Filteau?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: I think the rural areas are harder hit than in urban areas, for sure.

MG: And that would be, I mean, it sounds obvious, but explain why.

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: It is sometimes more difficult to recruit anesthesiologists to rural areas. And as a result, if there's short staffing and there are very few people in the rural areas, it becomes a snowball effect, because the few people that would be in a rural area providing anesthetics will be on the hook for working much longer hours and covering call shifts. And sometimes that means being permanently on call day and night for emergencies that come in, which is obviously a very tough sell.

MG: Dr. Gregg, what are the conversations that you have with your colleagues about this? You mentioned the days getting longer and people, you know, maybe leaving the province or going somewhere else. When you're being stretched in this way, what are people talking about when they can catch a breath? If they can catch a breath?

DR. KEVIN GREGG: You know, two things. I think one is that people are talking about relocating. Some, there are some places that you mentioned earlier. You know, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick have very aggressive recruiting programs now. People have talked about just packing up and leaving. People are talking about slowing their practices down or, you know, taking more days off because they just can't do the same volunteer work they're doing. Many people are working, you know, 20, 30 per cent more than they're scheduled to work. To try to get cases done. But at some point people burn out and, you know, want to slow down. We, you know, we have people that used to pick up a lot of extra calls to help out the group and do extra cases. And we're just not seeing that right now.

MG: Dr. Filteau, do you feel that burnout?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Absolutely. And people, you know, we, to use the expression flogging a dead horse. You know, when we were in a crisis during COVID, people were, you know, all hands-on deck, but you cannot sustain that long-term. And so, as the years go by, you know, coming in on your days off to give anesthetics to prevent and OR being cancelled. You know, we continue to do that but...

MG: Is that something that you do?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Oh, yes. Absolutely. We every single day we see sick calls and we see notes on our chats, you know, to come in if you can, and people will pinch hit. Cancel their home plans and come in. And there's a tremendous amount of productivity pressure from the hospitals to get the work done. But at some point, you cannot sustain that type of activity.

MG: Productivity pressure: that meaning that if you don't show up, the operation is cancelled, the backlog gets longer.

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Exactly. It's not a consequence from a hospital point of view. It's just the moral consequence that we feel knowing that patients are not getting the care they need.

MG: Dr. Gregg, we got a statement from Alberta Health Services saying that they had recently made changes to the temporary suspension of the participation by Northern Alberta in this national donor-recipient matching program to allow for transplants for highly sensitized patients in February. Highly sensitized patients are those who have a lot of difficulty finding a match. These are lifesaving operations for many people. You've hinted at this, but what do you make of how decisions are being made on how resources are being allocated?

DR. KEVIN GREGG: You know, that's the statement. I hadn't seen that one, but, you know, I think there are decisions being made at the operations level to try to prioritize, you know, urgent cases. I's a difficult decision. I remember talking with people about this before at the provincial level that, you know, we do have limited resources and there needs to be difficult decisions made. In the ideal world, you know, the waitlist is negligible, and we have enough ORs and enough staff, not just anesthesia, but post-operative care, etcetera, to do everything. But that's not the reality we're in right now, and there's no short-term fix. So, they are difficult decisions. People are going to be affected. And it's very tough as a practitioner to know that. You know, as Lucie hinted to we do our best to try and pick up the slack, but at some point we just can't do it.

MG: Dr. Filteau, there are a couple of things that have been floated as proposals to deal with this. One is to change the ratio of care. What currently is the ratio of care when it comes to a patient and an anesthesiologist?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: So, the current guidelines to the practice of anesthesia in Canada, put out by the Canadian Anesthesiologists’ Society, is that there's a one-to-one ratio of a physician who provides anesthetics, being in the room with somebody who's receiving a general anesthetic. And so that means that you are there the entire time.

MG: I want to get to the physician part of that a moment. But one of the suggestions is that you, as an anesthesiologist, would be responsible for multiple rooms. Is that possible?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Well, it's physically possible, but I wouldn't recommend it.

MG: Mm.

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Because I think that every, well, every patient in Canada deserves the presence of an anesthesiologist. As I mentioned before, it's a complex process and you would want the person with that training being by your side, because things do happen on a moment-to-moment basis, and judgement needs to happen at the time to avoid a crisis.

MG: You've also said, a few different times, that you are a physician. That these are doctors, you're a doctor. And so, there's a suggestion, as well, to replace perhaps some of the responsibilities and the roles with non-physicians. Is--what would that do?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Well, we have a longstanding history in Canada of this being the case. As far back as the late 1930s where the decision was made that this is a medical act. And as a result--and there were deaths at the time that led to that decision. So, this is our long-standing history of quality and safety care in Canada. So, to change that model now very much concerns me with regards to trying to maintain that level of quality.

MG: So, what's the answer here?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: What we do have, anesthesia assistants, although we don't have enough of them at the moment. It is an anesthesia care team set up and I do think that if we really, low hanging fruit, we could absolutely increase our numbers of assistants to help with the efficiency of care, because more hands on deck means that it's a better quality of working conditions and also definitely increases the efficiency.

MG: But ultimately, though, you need more people in the field, right?

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: Yes. But they're faster to train. They're typically respiratory therapists, and they have a specific training and certification that leads them to be certified as anesthesia assistants. And they're skilled assistants, and they understand a lot of what's going on. And then we are able to delegate certain tasks to them and work alongside with them. But also, there are tremendous inefficiencies within our current system. Unlike private industry, the hospitals can have a lot of bottlenecks to the process of care. We're not talking about a race car pit crew here. There are inefficiencies that happen, and addressing those inefficiencies would make a lot more sense. Rather than having a valuable anesthesiologist and whole surgical team waiting 45 minutes in between cases to get the next surgery done. And so rather than doubling up two rooms to one anesthesiologist, I think addressing some of these issues would help.

MG: I'm really glad to hear about the work that you do and the complexity of that work, but also what you're up against. Doctors, thank you very much.

DR. LUCIE FILTEAU: You're welcome.

DR. KEVIN GREGG: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Kevin Gregg, president of the Alberta Medical Association, Anesthesia section. He was in Edmonton. And Dr. Lucie Filteau is president of the Canadian Anesthesiologists’ Society. She was in Ottawa.

[Music: Light instrumental]

Apple's new Vision Pro headset

Guest: Julian Chokkattu

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway. You know when Apple pitches a product, they are not just pitching a computer or a phone. They are pitching you a vision of reality.

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[Miscellaneous noise]

SPEAKER: On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce: Macintosh, and you'll see why 1984 won't be like 1984.

MG: High drama. That was Apple's 1984 Macintosh ad. Ran for the first time 40 years ago. It argued you could get a monochrome corporate computer, or you could be an individual with a Mac. Well, now Apple has a new pitch. It's called the Vision Pro, and its aspirations are as high as Macs were back in 1984. This product is a virtual reality headset that Apple hopes will reshape our daily lives, including how we work.

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KARA SWISHER: Apple Vision Pro is a headset.

KARA SWISHER: How's it going to change work?

KARA SWISHER: Because you're not going to need a screen. You know, everyone's like, it costs $3,000. I said, a really nice screen costs $3,000. I think you're going to have the screens in front of you. And when it gets lighter and better, you'll be working in front of you. Heads up display is the way it's going to go.

MG: That's the tech journalist Kara Swisher, talking about the Vision Pro on the podcast Smart List. Julian Chokkattu is the reviews editor at Wired. He has tried this thing and is with us to talk about what it is and whether we'll need it. Julian, good morning.

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: Morning. Hi. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for being here. What is this? I heard it described the other day as a face computer.

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: I think that's a pretty accurate description. I's a headset. Very much like a VR headset. I mean, you could basically say it is a VR headset, but it's also an AR headset in that you can, you know, turn off the, turn on the world around you and see through the rest of the world, as you would with VR glasses, augmented reality glasses. But it's sort of meant to be an all-in-one device. They're pitching this as a way for you to watch movies, a way for you to play interactive games with the environment or just, you know, VR games, you can have immersive experiences. And, you know, the other big thing here that they're leaning on in is the fact that you can do some work. You can bring in your MacBook screen into the virtual space and add different screens to the side of it. Or you can just completely live separately from your MacBook and work alone in the headset and, you know, have a pretty similar experience to a powerful MacBook.

MG: What is the problem that Apple is trying to solve with this device?

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: The problem that they're trying to solve, I think in some ways is bringing, you know, I think the concept of all these devices that you have generally with you into one machine. And I think this is sort of a long-term evolution that they're focusing on. This is very much like a first-generation product. And, you know, the price sort of matches that, you know, over time, presumably it will get cheaper and lighter and easier to wear and carry. Buy they're sort of always on computing, you know, having this sort of interface around you that you can interact with at any moment, wherever you are, without having to go back home to your PC or carry a bulky big laptop around that's limited to that one screen. I think the idea is you're supposed to be able to have this virtual experience with you wherever you go, so that you can have whatever it is you prefer, whether that's three screens or multiple apps around you at the same time, sort of wherever you are in a coffee shop or even in the plane.

MG: You tried it. You strapped these goggles on. What was that like?

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: It was a little odd because I think the idea of wearing is a bulky big headset, especially one that has a wire that comes out of it that attaches to a battery pack. It's still not quite very much like an Apple experience that you might expect. You know, Apple is sort of known for that polished, complete, thorough experience. And this feels like it still is a first gen product. And, you know, sometimes Apple waits and comes out at a time where it doesn't have to have some of those limitations. But I think this is sort of the nature of the technology and that that's just going to be a limitation no matter what, until someone figures out a better battery technology later down the road.

MG: You control this, you control this with your eyes, right?

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: Yeah. So, you can stare at whatever it is you want. And there's eye tracking. And it did promise me that, you know, advertisers won't be able to see exactly where you're looking. But you can stare at whatever it is you want, and then you use your fingers to make a little tap, gestures to click, and you can use your fingers to tap and zoom through or scroll through interface. It's actually quite seamless and smooth and remarkable how well that part of the whole experience works.

MG: What did you like about it?

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: I kind of like working on the web the most, like just browsing the web. I think, you know, the immersive experiences are still coming, so there wasn't a ton for me to experience there and see. I don't particularly think, you know, watching a movie is going to be super amazing or interesting in a VR space in that way. I think a lot of people have TVs. They're going to enjoy that. But the experience of being able to just pull any app around you and just browse the web, you know, have a different app like slack on the side. I think that has some real potential, especially if you consider, you know, being able to do that wherever you are without just being at home. You just have to be comfortable with, you know, wearing a headset. But it's an Apple product. I think people will sort of forgive you very quickly.

MG: Do you think it'll change how we work?

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: I think there will be a tilting point this year. You know, I think VR headsets have tried so hard to become a very common thing. And Apple is in the luxury of, you know, being able to change people's opinions just because it's an Apple product. And so, I think this year we're going to start seeing more widespread acceptance by the average consumer to be able to, you know, to wear a headset like something like the Vision Pro, but, you know, this is very much a $3,500 product. So not everyone is going to be hopping on it like they might buy the latest AirPods. So, I think it'll take some time, but I think with Apple, you know, it's going to make it cool. Something that maybe Facebook or Meta might have had trouble doing.

MG: But is it, I mean, we're just about out of time. We only have a few seconds left. But is it the future of computing? That I'm going to be seeing what I would normally see on my screen, right in front of my eyes? Is that really the future?

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: I think so. I think there's a lot of interest in augmented reality and bringing all of this work into the headset. I think that's sort of the way things are going. It's just a matter of time before someone makes it small and compact enough that you're not going to really be bothered about wearing something bulky on your head.

MG: It's going to look not like ski goggles, but something else.

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: I hope so.

MG: The fashion person I think, would agree with you. Julian, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

JULIAN CHOKKATTU: Thanks so much.

MG: Julian Chokkattu is the reviews editor at Wired. Your regional update is on its way, and then:

SOUNDCLIP

RACHEL NOTLEY: I have to ask myself, seriously, whether I've got the energy to give it my all every day. And I'm not 100 per cent sure that after ten years, that's exactly where I am. There's some really good folks in our caucus and it's time to let other people shine.

[Music: Theme fades up]

MG: The former Premier of Alberta, Rachel Notley, announced last week that she will step down as leader of her party. We'll talk to her. Coming up in 90 seconds about her legacy and what she wants us to understand about Albertans. That's coming up on The Current. Stay with us.

Rachel Notley reflects on time as Alberta NDP leader

Guest: Rachel Notley

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

RACHEL NOTLEY: Having considered what, I believe to be the best interests of our party, our caucus, as well as my own preferences. I'm here today to announce that I will not be leading Alberta's NDP into the next election.

MG: That's Rachel Notley. She announced that she is stepping down as leader of Alberta's New Democrats after almost a decade in the job. When she took over, the party had only four MLAs (Member of the Legislative Assembly.) She led that party to victory. Ended a conservative reign that lasted more than 40 years. And then, after four years in power, the NDP lost the next two elections. But there is no doubt that Rachel Notley has changed the political landscape in Alberta. Rachel Notley is in Edmonton. Good morning.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Good morning.

MG: You're a runner.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Indeed.

MG: Do you find that your steps are a bit lighter now? Now that you have made this decision, but also announced the decision publicly.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Yes. Subject, of course, to the six inches of snow that I ran through this morning. But yeah. Yeah. No, there's no question there's a little bit less pressure these days.

MG: Why did you make this decision now?

RACHEL NOTLEY: You know, I took some time to think about it and to think about what was best for the party and the caucus moving forward, as well as for me. I didn't just make the decision last week. I did make it a while ago, but I waited until we'd had a chance to get, you know, some of our new MLAs up to speed and get them through a session. We're very excited. We have 19 new MLAs. We have 38 MLAs, largest opposition in Alberta's history, and 19 of them are new. And so, I wanted them to come in to an official opposition caucus that had some structure and some process. And now they know their jobs. They're incredibly capable. And so it's a good time for me to bring the caucus into this next stage.

MG: When you made that speech, you talked about your parents, and you got really emotional in talking about them. Tell me a little bit about why that hit you, then.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, you know, it's always a bit of a bittersweet, I suppose. You know, I grew up in in the party. I grew up watching both my parents, as activists, each in their own way. And, you know, you always kind of. It's a bit, it's both sad to think that they didn't get a chance to see the success that, frankly, we all collectively have had in Alberta's NDP. But at the same time, it's also kind of inspiring because, you know, I drew a lot from what they taught me growing up. Not just the values of social democracy, which, of course, are critically important, but also the values of sort of determined hard work. I've often said that New Democrat in Alberta will always have to work at least twice as hard as anybody else. And that is certainly I think what we've seen in this province over the last many years.

MG: When you look back on, not just what they gave you, but what you accomplished, what brings you the most satisfaction in terms of your time as leader?

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, I think the most important thing is, you know, I've always been a person from a long time ago, who has said that, you know, we should be able to agree to disagree. And I don't actually look down my nose at the concept of partisanship. And, you know, even though I was born and raised and went to school here in Alberta, I went away and lived in Ontario and B.C. for a while. And when I came back to Alberta in the early 2000s, there was this notion that one couldn't be partisan or couldn't be political. And it was because we were a province that was a one-party state. And my view is that we do better when everybody has the ability to express their ideas in a way that is not only, "oh, isn't that an interesting kook over there in the corner," but oh, that person actually has a potential of making a decision for this whole province and that that makes all of what we do better. And so, we're not a one-party state anymore. So that's probably the single biggest thing that I look back on and I'm proud of. And then, you know, flowing from that, of course, are some policy issues that I was very proud to be part of. You know, we were the first jurisdiction in North America to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. We cut child poverty in half, even as we were dealing with the the biggest recession driven by the collapse in oil prices of a couple of generations. And of course, we phased out coal and built ourselves a pipeline. So, I leave with some pride in the record that we were able to develop.

MG: You believe that it's no longer a one-party state? I mean, Jason Kenney famously said that the NDP victory was an accidental government.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, that's exactly true. He did famously say that in 2019, and that's one of the reasons why I didn't leave them, because I knew that was wrong, and I didn't want him to get away with that narrative. As it turned out, I think I lasted longer than he did. Well, I didn't think. I know. [Laughs] Both in terms of my tenure as Premier as well as my tenure as leader. But listen, the reality is, is that we got 44 per cent of the vote in the last election. There are governing parties that would be very excited over 44 per cent of the vote anywhere. We won all the seats in Edmonton, a few outside. And then, of course, we won the most number of seats in Calgary.

MG: How divided do you think the province is? Because to your point, you won seats in urban ridings, but not nearly enough in rural ridings. And I just wonder, one of the things when we were in Calgary and speaking with voters there from across the spectrum, um, they predicted in some ways that that was going to happen, but also said that this was about trusting you and trusting your government in terms of what it was going to do. Why? Why do you think you aren't able to reach those folks in rural communities? And how divided do you think the province is?

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, I mean, I think the reality is, is that there is division all across our country right now because we have been through, you know, very, very difficult times. You know, you look at the protests that we saw in Ottawa, that's, you know, a clear demonstration of that. What I know is that we actually increased our vote in ridings all across the province. There were only three ridings where we didn't increase our vote.

MG: But the reality is that those votes didn't go to you. I mean, that it was the UCP that was still able to clean up in those rural areas.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Absolutely. But my point is, is like, I've been at this game for a while, as you said in your introduction, you know. When I started, we had four seats in Edmonton and now we have all the seats in Edmonton and many more seats. And so, growth is sometimes incremental. So, what I'm saying is that we did grow our support in rural Alberta last time, and we have more work to do. There is no question we need to take more time to listen to the people of rural Alberta to engage in those communities. And I believe that we are well positioned to do that. Between 2019 and 2023 we really focused on Calgary. And I believe that's paid off and we have more work to do there, but we've made tremendous progress. And we're going to be as strategic in terms of our efforts to build more relationships with folks in rural Alberta, too.

MG: If you listened to them, as you said, you need to listen to them more. If you listen to people in rural parts of your province, what do you think you would hear?

RACHEL NOTLEY: I would say, I think there's a lot of things that actually bring us together. Rural Albertans, for instance, care very much about the land. They care about, you know, conservation. They care about affordability. Um, they care about economic development. They care about community and the value of preserving and strengthening community where they are. You know, they want to be able to move forward with the rest of the province. I mean, you know, a basic but really important issue, like rural broadband. They understand that that's going to be extremely important in terms of growth and that's about connectivity. And in fact, instead of about distinguishing one part of the province from another. So, there are lots of common values. Of course, they care about their health care. Because of course, the state of health care in rural Alberta has deteriorated dramatically.

MG: What do you think is different in terms of their goals and their visions and aspirations versus those in urban areas?

RACHEL NOTLEY: Right. Well, you know, I think I don't want to make gross generalizations about people in broad communities in terms of where they differ. I think that, you know, they love their province. We all love our province. And there will be some differences of opinion for sure. But I also think that we want to see the province move forward. And as I say, when I go through parts of rural Alberta, especially some of the smaller communities, the smaller cities, I see folks that want a government that's going to build a strong community foundation, strong health care, strong education, that's going to engage in economic diversification in a forward looking way. And a government that's going to address the kinds of concerns we have. We have massive land use issues that are developing here in Alberta as a result of water allocation issues, for instance. And we are going to have to work together on that intelligently and with thought and there's a strong role for a strong official opposition to play in that process.

MG: Let me ask you about one of the issues that ran through your time as leader, but also in power. That's the issue of pipelines and the TMX, the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Mhm.

MG: This pipeline is expected to start shipping oil early this year. But as you well know, the costs have ballooned. It's been contentious right from the very beginning. How do you feel about that as a key part of your legacy?

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, I think it's, I appreciate that the costs have ballooned, but I also believe that it is going to return. There's still a strong return on investment from the construction of that pipeline. And it is going to benefit Albertans and ultimately Canadians. You know, the reality is, is that the capital expenditure into oil and gas and particularly oil sands was decided on, you know, years and decades ago. And the amount of production that will come from that will happen either way. And the key is for Albertans and Canadians to get the maximum return on investment for the product that we own, that Albertans own. And we have been suffering under the result of a tremendous discount because of our inability to transport our oil and gas effectively, cheaply and into a diverse set of markets. So, what the expansion to tidewater of TMX does is, is it diversifies our markets, and it reduces our transportation costs. And it means that Albertans and through Albertans, Canadians get a much higher return on a product that would be sold either way. And for that reason, the economics are still there for it. The last I heard was that it would generate about 40 billion dollars over 20 years, just in taxes and royalties incrementally. So that's not nothing. And so, it's going to pay for itself.

MG: What do you say to, and this has dogged you throughout your time as leader, the environmentalists who are incredibly disappointed with your stance on that. Not just in the province or beyond the province, even members of the New Democratic Party elsewhere in the country, who can't square you with the support that you have for this pipeline right now at a time of heightened environmental concern? What do you say to them?

RACHEL NOTLEY: What I say is that the pipeline is not going to have an impact on the amount of production. It is merely going to have an impact on the amount, the size of the investment that is returned to the owners of the resources and to taxpayers. And that increase return is going to help us invest and actually also help oil and gas invest in what needs to be done to reduce emissions and also to diversify our energy sector in a way that allows us to, you know, aggressively reduce emissions.

MG: You know that there are people who will say that it needs to be kept in the ground. That it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether you build a bigger pipeline, whether that pipeline is a good return on investment. That the point is right now that you keep it in the ground.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, the reality is, is that it's not going to be kept in the ground. And moreover, there are hundreds of thousands of Canadians who pay their bills right now on the basis of the oil and gas industry. So, you need to find a way to ensure that that industry, as I say, diversifies. And that jobs are protected and grown, not, thrown into disarray. That kind of a dramatic shift just creates chaos and opposition. And it will result in no progress on emissions reduction. And this is a key thing that I said throughout my tenure as Premier and also as leader, is that if we pit the economy and the environment against each other, then we will fail on both. And the reality is, is that Alberta's economy and hundreds of thousands of people in this province pay their mortgage each and every day on the basis of the energy industry. And Canadians as a whole also benefit tremendously from the amount of income that comes into this country, through that industry. So, I'm not saying that we don't have to diversify and use technology to reduce our emissions as much as we can. And also move into sort of new sectors overall, but that we have to do it in a way that ensures the consent of the citizens of this country. And if we do it too dramatically, we will lose that, and then we will lose on both fronts.

MG: Do you think that there should be a production cap on oil and gas when it comes to a goal of trying to reduce emissions overall?

RACHEL NOTLEY: I think there should be an emissions cap.

MG: Not a productions cap?

RACHEL NOTLEY: No, no. I've always been in favour of an emissions cap. I mean, we put in place a draft a production cap when we were in government, but it was linked to an emissions cap. And I think that we can get there with the emissions cap. I just think that we need to be working collaboratively more effectively than we are right now. You know, we are at a state right now where the provincial government and the federal government are at a point where we're not making progress anymore, and we're letting down everybody who needs to see us put these limits in place, in a way that still attracts investment and creates jobs as opposed to killing jobs. But we're not doing that right now because it's deteriorated into a ridiculously weaponized conversation. And that is frustrating to me because I think that there is opportunity there. And absolutely, we do need to make responsible decisions about our emissions. And we need to start bringing them down. And I agree with that completely. But I am disappointed by the state of the conversation on that right now.

MG: What do you think people outside of Alberta don't understand about the province in 2024?

RACHEL NOTLEY: You know, I think there is still a caricature of the province. I think that, you know.

MG: What is that caricature? I mean, if you were to--and I'm not, you're not outside the province. But what do you think is projected on Alberta right now?

RACHEL NOTLEY: What I will say is projected is the failure to understand that we are one of the most, like, the second most diverse province in the country. That we are the youngest and that we are the best educated. And we have a incredible, you know, arts and culture scene. We have, you know, a diversity or diversification in our economy is exploding right now. And so, there is a lot to Alberta that people don't see. And so rather than sort of saying, oh, here's what I think people think of us here's what I am concerned people don't know about us, which is what I just described. And on top of that, having lived all across the country, you know, I know Albertans to be very adventurous, open, welcoming, very friendly, a little on the charismatic side, I would say.

MG: [Laughing] Charismatic.

RACHEL NOTLEY: You know, like, if you're going to go out for a night on the town somewhere in Canada, I would say you're going to have the most fun in Alberta. And that's what people don't know about Albertans.

MG: You said that you hoped when you got into politics, that we should be able to agree to disagree. When you take a look at this country, not just the province, we take a look at this country, how do you feel about the future of Canada, given how polarized we are and how it feels, to a lot of people, like you can't agree to disagree. That people just yell at each other?

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, you know, I think for sure that, you know, that is a troubling observation. And it's not untrue. And of course, it's not something that's unique to Canada. I think the world is in a bit of a fragile place right now.

MG: But in this country right now, you have provinces that are talking about, you know, avoiding laws that are in place because they don't agree. You have national programs that are being questioned and perhaps undermined, or at the very least, that are being kind of, a road is being created around those national programs. Are you optimistic about the future of the country?

RACHEL NOTLEY: I wouldn't be someone who has spent as much time as I have in politics if I didn't mostly work from a position of optimism. And so, yes, I think that we've got a few folks out there that are very cynically engaging in very exploitive politics right now. I also think, though, that there's still a lot of folks around who are more measured who think in slightly longer-term horizons and who are going to take more time and effort to have thoughtful conversations where we hear each other's perspectives and we approach those conversations with a view to problem solving rather than a view to wedging. And, you know, creating more clicks. The whole environment within which we engage each other has gone through such a shift over the course of ten years. And it takes a little bit of work to get back to a place where those sort of longer-term tactics of engaging with each other on difficult subjects are reinforced and we're able to get back to a place where we can find common ground. So, we have to kind of relearn how we engage with each other a little bit, and we need to see the cynical click bait stuff for what it is and learn to ignore it.

MG: Is there a role for those people in politics, do you think?

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, I think they may have to try a little bit harder to get there these days, but I do feel optimistic that most people who go into politics, at least at the beginning stages of the process, really are doing it because they want to make a difference for their community, and they want to build something better. And so, I do think that that's why most people get involved in the first place. And we need to just find a way to make sure that they keep that front of mind as they navigate the day-to-day tactics of the political world.

MG: What's next for you? You've repeatedly said that you will not go into federal politics. Is that still the case?

RACHEL NOTLEY: That is absolutely the case. No, I'm not going to go into federal politics.

MG: Because?

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, as I've said to a few folks, you know, I really, really do care about the issues that live in the provincial world. You know, education, health care, housing. These things are the things, you know, the environment, obviously. These are the things where provincial decision makers really do have the most agency. So, I'm not exactly sure what my engagement will look like going forward. But honestly, you know, if politics was still the right form for me, I would immediately be drawn back to the provincial front, because that's where a lot of the decisions are made on the things that matter most to me.

MG: But no federal involvement.

RACHEL NOTLEY: That's right. So, politics. So, the decision is that I don't think politics is where I want to be right now.

MG: But if somebody was thinking about getting into politics and they were discouraged by what we were just talking about, that ability to agree to disagree with somebody, they worry that that's gone. Would you encourage them to get into politics?

RACHEL NOTLEY: I sure would. I sure would. You know, I take a lot of pride over the fact that, you know, we ran an equity-based slate in the last election. And, of course, we elected more women than men. And we elected a very diverse slate. And, you know, the first, a number of firsts in terms of representative groups who are now in our legislature. And that happened because I spent a lot of time recruiting folks. And one of my recruiting lines, which is real, is that, you know, if you're one of those people who listens to the radio in the morning and starts yelling at it, then you probably should think about getting into politics. And there's lots of different ways to get involved in politics. You know, running for office is one of them. But, you know, for every politician, there's, you know, 30 people at least around them who lift them up. And so, there's lots of ways to be involved in making a difference in your community without necessarily jumping in to putting your name forward. But at the same time, people should always think about themselves as a potential candidate and know that there's no longer a traditional picture of what a politician looks like. Politician looks like people and potentially people who yell at the radio.

MG: I don't know whether we've generated any of that yelling this morning, but I am glad to talk to you again. Thank you for taking time to speak with us. And good luck in whatever you do.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Thank you so much. It was lovely to chat with you.

MG: Rachel Notley is the outgoing leader of the Alberta NDP. She was in Edmonton. That's The Current for this Tuesday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One, then it's Commotion, and they will remember the great Canadian filmmaker, Norman Jewison. He died on Saturday: 97 years old. The Guardian said for half the time the cinema has been in existence, Norman Jewison was the gold standard of a night at the movies. He directed--the list, the films he directed is unbelievable in some ways. Fiddler on the Roof, Moonstruck, and Justice for All, Hurricane. Also championed the next generation of filmmakers, founded a film school in Toronto, the Canadian Film Centre. When he won the Irving G. Thalberg Memorial Award at the 1999 Academy Awards, Norman Jewison had this message:

SOUNDCLIP

NORMAN JEWISON: My parting thought to all those young filmmakers is this: just find some good stories. Never mind the gross. The top ten, bottom ten, what's the rating? What's the demographics?

[Applause grows]

NORMAN JEWISON: Just, you know something? The biggest grossing picture is not necessarily the best picture. I want to tell you something. So just tell stories that move us to laughter and tears. And perhaps reveal a little truth about ourselves.

MG: Norman Jewison got his start here at the CBC, then moved on to the rest of the world. Despite numerous awards and nominations, In the Heat of the Night was his only film that won Best Picture at the Academy Awards. Changed the game in so many ways. We're going to leave you this morning with the title track from that film. It's Ray Charles. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: "In the Heat of the Night" by Ray Charles]

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Tuesday January 23, 2024 Full Transcript

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