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The Current Transcript for November 23, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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I'm also a mom of two children who have been actively voicing their opinions and protesting and speaking to media and elected officials, and I worry for their safety.

MATT GALLOWAY: The chief of police in Toronto calls it staggering, since the war between Israel and Hamas broke out, the number of anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim hate crimes in that city has spiked. And it is a story repeated right across the country. In 30 minutes, two members of Canada's Muslim community. On living in the shadow of Islamophobia. Also this morning, your letters about our story earlier this week on how cost of living crisis is leading some young people to postpone or rule out having children. And later.

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It's hard to stop the Christmas spending because you always do want to kind of spend a little bit extra on, you know, on somebody. Or if you buy something else for someone else, then all of a sudden you need to make things equal among family members.

MG: It is Black Friday. And while many are struggling to make ends meet, retailers are hoping you'll shop chop shop in an hour. A look at where Canadians are spending our money and some advice on how to keep that credit card in your wallet. And in just a moment. As climate related emergencies like fires, floods and big storms increase, we'll hear from those in a fight with the insurance company. But we begin with the latest on a temporary truce in the Middle East. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Seg 1

Guests: Briar Stewart, Brandon Sobel

MG: Israeli media is reporting that hostages who had been held in Gaza have been released today. That includes a mix of Israeli hostages and Thai nationals. 39 Palestinians held in Israeli prisons are also expected to be freed. All of this as a four day truce started shortly after sunrise in the war between Israel and Hamas. And trucks full of supplies have already crossed from Egypt into Gaza. The CBC's senior international correspondent Margaret Evans joins us now with the latest from Jerusalem. Margaret, Hello.

MARGARET EVANS: Hi, Matt.

MG: What do we know about the hostages who have been released and what happens now?

MARGARET EVANS: Well, we've actually just before we started speaking, we've been watching live pictures from the Rafah border crossing. Very eerie looking pictures because, of course, there's very little electricity there. So there are some street lights. And we've seen the white and red vans of the Red Cross. You know, a number of them travelling in convoy with the flags, in the flags in the background crossing into Israel. We're not sure who is in the van still. But, of course, the expectation is that it will be those 12 Thai workers that have been released. That is separate from the deal that has been agreed between Israel and Hamas through their Qatari and Egyptian interlocutors. So but they are now en route. The hostages, the Israeli hostages to Egypt. And they will from there be flown to various hospitals that are on stand by in Israel, as many as six, we're told. And we heard a few hours ago that families who've been notified that their relatives are on the list have started arriving at those hospitals. They're expected to be greeted by trauma experts. The people, the 13 Israeli hostages are all expected to be women and children. We just still don't know exactly the names for them at this present at this time and not knowing for they don't know up to very shortly before the exchange begins, the families don't know. And that, of course, increases the just the real anxiety that people are living through, not knowing whether their people are coming home.

MG: Just I mean, and to that anxiety point, I mean, as you understand it, how are the families of the hostages, but more broadly, people in Israel, how are they reacting to this news?

MARGARET EVANS: Well, you know, I spent the afternoon in Tel Aviv at the square where they have the big Shabbat table. It's really become the beating heart for the families who have demanded that the hostages return be the primary aim of Israel's war. And there's a great community spirit there. But the sadness in the air is really palpable. People are drawn, tired. There are tears everywhere, lots of of of hugging going on. And as the deadline started to approach to sort of where you thought you would see whether this hostage release was going to take place, whether the truce was holding. You know, people were really visibly anxious. And and while there was a, you know, kind of a cheer when it seemed that things were going ahead, you know, they, of course, know that so many more will not be coming out. And I spoke to one to a psychiatrist who's kind of been there from the very beginning, who talked about the fear and the shock at the beginning to the sense that people have now that that what's happened is really a turning point for them. But they don't know if things are going to get really worse because, you know, all of the war that's happening now or whether they'll be able to build upon whatever comes out of it. So, you know, it's it's there's this kind of real sense of of trauma because nobody nobody wants to dare to hope. And they know there's more pain coming. But there is this sense of joy that, you know, you might see very soon children being reunited with parents. But of course, there are also those hostages who have been taken and who will have lost family members in that October 7th attack by Hamas. And and they won't be. They know about it. So there's lots of talk about care and how do you break that kind of news who've been through the ordeal that these hostages will obviously have endured.

MG: And again, this is an exchange. And so there are Palestinians that are being released from Israeli prisons. I guess you spoke just finally to one family who are hoping that their daughter will be among those who are released. What did that family tell you?

MARGARET EVANS: Yeah, we visited them this morning. There are 39 Palestinian detainees expected to be released. They are women and minors charged with various things. Nobody who is being released has been charged with murder. But the charges range from stone throwing to stabbing attacks to supporting or, you know, inciting terrorism. The the they've also been under pressure from the Israeli government, in particular, the hard, hard line settlers in the government in charge of policing in the occupied territories, saying they do not want to see Palestinians celebrating the return of their loved ones and and have asked the police to be quite heavily and security forces on quashing any kind of celebration. I met with a man named Ibrahim Awad. He his daughter, Nooran, was arrested when she was 15 years old. That was eight years ago. She was charged with attempting to stab an Israeli security policeman. And he didn't know, like the Israelis, whether his daughter will be on the list tonight of those being released, but that she is on the broader list of those expected to be released in the days ahead. And he said to me, you know, we're not going to celebrate because we decide we're not going to celebrate because of the circumstances, because of the war. But there should be some rejoicing. He said there should be some happiness at the return of this child. And they had put pictures of her. They had, you know, had little bunting of Palestinian flags. A sister had arrived from Jordan in tears, expecting this, you know, expecting family home. They said, you know, he did say that he he attributed the release of the prisoners to all of the Palestinian factions, not just Hamas. But, of course, he said also that Hamas will gain in popularity and be seen as having won the freedom of the Palestinian detainees who are going to be released in the coming days.

MG: This is all unfolding as we speak. Margaret, I'm grateful for the update on the latest. Thank you very much.

MARGARET EVANS: Thanks for having me, Matt.

MG: That's the CBC's senior international correspondent Margaret Evans. She's in Jerusalem.

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MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway. If you're on Prince Edward Island, there are few words that make locals shudder more than this one. Fiona.

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PAUL: Have a nice day.

MG: But in in new Annan, winds reached up to about 150km an hour on the night of the storm last year. That was enough to shake and then twist the modular home where retired mailman Paul Williams lives.

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PAUL: There's that little building over there with the white. You can see it over there, straight here. Well, the cottage came around and it's over there now.

MARGIE: There was a cottage beside that.

MG: Paul's home was pushed off the blocks that support it. But he says his insurance company ruled it wasn't the wind that pushed that home. It was actually the water. And it turns out that's not covered by his policy.

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PAUL: There was a picture there where there's a picture that I want to show her, one more than one of the pictures. I mean, for somebody to come in to tell you that your house flooded and the floors are not even wet.

MG: So Paul and his wife, Margie, hired an engineer who agreed with them and they went to their insurance company to appeal that rejection.

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MARGIE: And it was their board of directors that heard the appeal. They wouldn't allow us to go in to the appeal and they wouldn't allow us to bring our engineer we had hired. They wouldn't allow him to go in, try and defend us and say, well, no, it wasn't from water. So that was the end of it.

PAUL: I could see where I could see something like this, cause enough stress for somebody to get real angry and do something they shouldn't do. If I didn't have her like I haven't had a great education. So, I mean, she's done all the paperwork, all of this sort. So it's really it's more stressful her. She's a little bit stronger than I am.

MARGIE: And we're done. Yeah. We can't go through anything. Like, I don't even want to. I don't even like to even think about it.

MG: Paul and Margie Williams gave up their fight, but 30 minutes away from their place. Eileen Walsh refuses to like.

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EILEEN: Fine. Almost from the outside. Except when you look at the roof. Going inside, it's really hard. It's completely. Got it. Top to bottom. You can see over there, that's my master bedroom. The water's coming in because it just rained. I'm tired of trying to do all the work for my insurance company where they should be doing all the work. I'm tired of them not answering me back. They're just simple questions. I'm tired when I have to tell them that the first part they put on my roof leak the first day, and then I'm taking weeks and weeks to put another one up. I'm tired of calling them to tell them every time it rains in my house. This didn't have to be this bad. It just could have been fixed last year.

MG: Now, Eileen has tapped into help that she didn't even know existed. Help she only learned about in a radio ad during a moment of desperation. She hired what is called a public adjuster. This is a small but growing field in this country. So we'll start at the entrance. As you can see, the ceilings are all removed because it's due to this being a Fiona hurricane claim. This is Rami Doran in Halifax. He was a builder before he formed what he says is the first public adjusting firm in Atlantic Canada. Public adjusters are insurance adjusters hired by homeowners, not insurance companies, to help them settle their cases. It's a little known field in Canada, but more common in the United States. Honestly, at the very beginning, we were we were seen as the enemy.

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RAMI: The insurance companies were reluctant to talk to us or reluctant to share information. It was very difficult. There is even some adjusters that had even seen the concept of a public adjuster before We sent them our representation agreement and said, Hey, we're representing this client. They had to go to their managers to get confirmation. They could talk to us. It was such a new thing for the adjuster in this area.

MG: The insurance industry is swamped. Climate change, as you know, is causing insurance claims and rates to spike. A report out this year from the Insurance Institute of Canada says severe weather claims are expected to double over the next ten years. And Rami says his business has doubled in the last year. Many of his customers tell him they have felt powerless.

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It is a massive power imbalance. Insurance companies. It's like a beer league pick up thing going up against an NHL hockey team, right? What are the chances of success impossible.

MG: Brandon Sobel has been listening in to all of this. After years in the insurance industry in Toronto. He and his father stopped working for insurance companies and became public adjusters. Brandon's with me in our studio in Toronto. Good morning.

BRANDON SOBEL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you do?

BRANDON SOBEL: What do we do? We represent policyholders when they're faced with a massive disaster in the middle of their life. Their life gets turned upside down from fires, hurricanes, any any major disaster. And we represent their best interests to make sure that they get a fair and reasonable settlement from their insurance company.

MG: What does that mean? You represent their best interests. Somebody has a nightmare of a scenario. Their house gets washed into the sea like Fiona Hill, or there's a fire, there's a flood. What happens?

BRANDON SOBEL: Every policyholder has a duty to prove their loss. So we help them through that process because it's very complicated, as you can imagine. It is extremely stressful. It's very emotional for people and without proper guidance and expertise in their corner, they're fighting a massive company with a lot of experience.

MG: Who pays you?

BRANDON SOBEL: The policyholder pays us.

MG: So they pay you to try to get more from the insurance company.

BRANDON SOBEL: Company. We we work on a percentage on a contingency of their claim. We handle their all aspects of their claim for them. We become the voice of the policyholder. So once we've been retained, the insurance company doesn't speak to the policyholder anymore. It's like having a lawyer in a lawsuit.

MG: So how much? What's the ceiling of 9%?

BRANDON SOBEL: I'll give you a rough example. I could say five to 30%. It depends.

MG: Who are your clients? Describe a situation. We just heard a bunch of certain folks who have gone through terrible experiences and trying to come up against an insurance company. Who are your clients? What are they going through?

BRANDON SOBEL: We get calls at all stages of the claim process. Sometimes people call where there's still literally flames coming out of the roof of their house and they just realise that this is far above their area of expertise or comfort, and they just have a satisfaction knowing there's somebody in their corner that can help them. We get calls a year later when people have literally pulled out their hair because they can't handle the stress of dealing with this anymore. It's anybody that I'll say has a major loss.

MG: And so we pay for insurance with the assumption that if that terrible thing happens, we will be taken care of because we put money, a lot of money into that insurance policy. Why is it so difficult for people to get what they feel like they are owed? Why is it that they feel as though they've been treated badly by insurance companies?

BRANDON SOBEL: I think some of the comments made by the contractor before pretty much hit it right on the nail on the head. The insurance industry does not have the capabilities to deal with the frequency and severity of these natural disasters that are becoming more popular. This has changed the industry. I'll give you a quick example. I've got a claim right now north of the GTA, the adjuster assigned by the insurance companies in Vancouver. That doesn't even make sense.

MG: The other side of the country.

BRANDON SOBEL: The other side of it doesn't even make sense. And I've spoken to this adjuster now a couple of times. I've recently learned she's only been in the industry for two months, and she confided to me she has 170 files and two months. She told me she likely will not maintain this job past Christmas. She can't handle it.

MG: So that's a volume issue. And we can talk more about that in just a moment. But there is also I mean, this idea of somebody said, you know, it's like a big league pickup team going up against the NHL. There is this idea that might circulate if you have ever gone up against the insurance company, that the insurance company is going to try and stall. The insurance company is going to try and and run the clock rag, the puck, whatever metaphor you want to use, so that you get to a point where you feel like you have to settle. You worked in the insurance industry for a long time. How much of that have you seen?

BRANDON SOBEL: To say it's deliberate? That would be a stretch, I think. I don't think their insurance companies are purposely going out of their way to delay claims.

MG: You don't think that?

BRANDON SOBEL: I don't think so.

MG: But does that happen where the delay goes on and on and on and eventually the person whose house burnt down, who's living in a hotel says, I can't handle this.

BRANDON SOBEL: Absolutely. That happens.

MG: And you and you settle for less.

BRANDON SOBEL: People will settle for less just to end the pain. They're in pain at that point. They don't know what to do. So they'll take probably what the insurance companies offering them and they walk away. When I hear those stories.

MG: Why did you walk away from the industry? Was there. Were there things that you saw that led you to think that you could do this work for homeowners instead, that you could not, that you're on the other side, but in some ways you are working for the other side?

BRANDON SOBEL: Yeah, we are technically on the other side there is the insurance industry referred to us as the dark side, but we don't feel that way at all. We actually feel we're the bright side. We made the change.

MG: Does that language says something right now when the people who are working for the homeowners are looked at as working for the dark side? That's telling.

BRANDON SOBEL: There's a great satisfaction in doing what we do. Again, some of these examples, I can tell you a couple of different examples. If you're if you're interested and you may not believe these results that I'm going to tell you, 680,000 to 3.1 million.

MG: They were offered 680,000. They got 3.1 million. Correct.

BRANDON SOBEL: And they tried on their own for two years before they found us. Another one, 58,000 to 1.7 million people listening to this might not say, how is this even possible?

MG: How is that even possible? Help me understand that. How is it that what the insurance company would be offering is so low compared to what you could get out of them doing?

BRANDON SOBEL: I'm going to call it the investigative work to really get down to the nuts and bolts of what happened in a claim. The example I gave you, this adjuster out in Vancouver, it was important because this young lady is going to probably leave her job in December. She's got 170 files that will that that workload will be transferred to a different adjuster, probably spread thin between five adjusters. And it's like broken telephone when you were a little kid. Now the message is gets weaker and weaker, People get more confused. The claim gets out of control. I've had a claim where about eight adjusters.

MG: On that point because from the insurance perspective, they would say that they are slammed, that they are overrun. Gloria Haydock has been. In the insurance industry for something like 30 years, about half of those as an insurance adjuster. She's now with the Insurance Bureau of Canada. And she told us a bit of like what you said in all of her years. She has never experienced a period this hard for insurance adjusters because of the recent storms and wildfires. Have a listen.

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Those are an incredible number of claims. Somebody has to own all those claims. You want to help people? You want to help help them rebuild their lives. It's difficult for adjusters to feel like they've been really helping when they've got, you know, another hundred files on their desk that they're trying to help as well. And we can't be there for them. That's difficult too.

MG: Do. Have some sympathy for those people who are drowning in paperwork, drowning in those files.

BRANDON SOBEL: I do, because I deal with them every day. And a big part of what I do, unfortunately, is following up and following up and following up. Everything revolves around your insurance policy, which is I use the word it's the Bible of your claim. And if you can't understand the policy and all the wordings, it's a complicated document. Some of them are 100 pages thick.

MG: Do you think most people have read their policy?

BRANDON SOBEL: I would say no. And if they did, I would say they probably wouldn't understand it anyway.

MG: And so how much of that is back to will come back to the industry in a moment, But how much of that is on those of us who are paying into insurance, those of us who have the policy to actually understand whether we're protected for water, not wind, what have you?

BRANDON SOBEL: People I think people think as an example, let's say somebody whose home is insured for $1 million and it burns down. You're not getting a check for $1 million. No way. Not going to happen. Why? The industry doesn't work that way. They will bring in their team of vendors, all their experts. And I mean, the insurance companies are a business like any other. They're looking at the bottom line. They have to. Every business is the same and claims payouts is a is a big part of their business. So they're going to do everything they can to manage that payout.

MG: How does somebody know if they're getting a good settlement? If you've gone through this nightmare scenario and you've seen your life been turned upside down, how do you know that you're getting what you are, what you're owed?

BRANDON SOBEL: A lot of people get red flags at different stages in the process. A great example is, is that somebody loses their home and a part of your policy is called the additional living expense. That's to put you in temporary accommodation. A lot of adjusters we hear and see and hear this daily will tell somebody right away you have $3,000 a month. But if you have a family of three people and three kids and a dog and.

MG: You're living in a major city in this small town in any country.

BRANDON SOBEL: Where are you going for $3,000 a month? Again, going back to the policy wording. It doesn't say that in the policy you have a limit of insurance for this. This one topic, let's call it additional living expense. It might be $200,000. There's no breakdown that says $3,000 a month. But the the policy is a policy of indemnity is supposed to put you back to what you had before. You're entitled to like kind and quality. So if you had a four bedroom home with a swimming pool, you're entitled to have that.

MG: Because you've paid and.

BRANDON SOBEL: Paid a premium for that. That's right. So going back to answer your question, how do you know if it's a fair and reasonable settlement that you're being offered? What I would tell anybody is, I mean, if you're getting a price from a contractor to fix your home through the insurance company, I would first thing I would do is reach out to a different contractor that is not related to the insurance industry and see if the price you're getting makes sense. But if that number doesn't match what the regular contractor says, then that's a red flag. Why not? That's an issue.

MG: Brendan, thank you very much.

BRANDON SOBEL: Thank you. Appreciate it.

MG: Brandon Sobel is a public insurance adjuster in Toronto. My name is Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

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Seg 2

Guests: Dalia El Farra, Jasmin Zine

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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Even wearing a keffiyeh right now, even wearing a Palestinian cultural symbol right now does not feel safe. So I was approached just for wearing my coffee and essentially told that it is okay. It is justifiable for Palestinians to be killed. This is this is the world that we exist in right now. This is in Canada and this is the norm. This is what I and other Palestinians have to experience every single day simply for existing, simply for sharing our identity.

MG: A keffiyeh is a Palestinian cultural scarf. That was Nadine Nasir. She's a Palestinian, Canadian and Christian. And she says these past weeks have been difficult for her and for her community.

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It's not just the grief of the loss of life and the scale of the loss of Palestinian life, but also the dehumanisation of Palestinians and the constant need that I feel to justify why Palestinians shouldn't be killed, why Palestinians deserve life.

MG: Those feelings extend beyond the Palestinian community. The National Council of Canadian Muslims says they've received a 1,300% increase in reports of hate motivated incidents since the 7th of October. Last weekend, a Toronto woman wearing a hijab was sprayed with something. Mosques have been spray painted, damaged and in one case, faeces was spread on the front doors. In the midst of this. A new Senate report on Islamophobia prompted by the murder of four members of the Afzal family in London, Ontario, was released. Jasmin Zine is a professor of sociology, religion and culture at Wilfrid Laurier University. Dalia al Farra is Palestinian, Canadian and works in human rights and equity, diversity and inclusion at the post-secondary level. She's in Toronto. Good morning to you both.

DALIA EL FARRA: Good morning. Good morning.

MG: Dalia, you have friends and family in Gaza. How are they doing right now?

DALIA EL FARRA: I do. My father's side of the family is originally from communist and that's where I'm from. My father was able to evacuate a couple of weeks ago. Some of my family members, immediate family members were able to evacuate with the U.K. citizens that evacuated, but the rest are unable to to do anything. They don't have another option. You ask how they are, they I always say they're unharmed physically, but the mental trauma is real. The emotional trauma is real. Food and water is scarce. The fear of not knowing what's happening, not knowing what's when and if they're going to be targeted. We were speaking to my cousin and in the background of his voice notes on WhatsApp was intense bombing, and that's been the norm for them.

MG: What about for you?

DALIA EL FARRA: Well, my survival guilt is real. There are so many levels of grief and trauma that myself and community members here are dealing with. For me on many levels, the worry for my family, the worry for my people in general, even if I didn't have any family, just watching and hearing what's happening has been horrific. So dealing with that anger and grief and frustration, I'm also feeling very disenfranchised and very marginalised here in Canada and wondering why is it that as a Palestinian Canadian, my human rights, my people aren't being treated at the same level, even of level of attention, of government action or inaction in this case as I grieve. It just makes me wonder what I'm doing and the frustration of not being able to do anything of speaking and and also being afraid to speak up. I'm also a mom of two children who have been actively - Well, one is a young, young adult now voicing their opinions and and protesting and speaking to media and elected officials. And I worry for their safety. On so many levels, it's been it's been very difficult. And I don't know what the recovery is, what the healing of this will look.

MG: I wanted to know I certainly want to talk about that healing, because that will be important now, but it will be important in future as well. Jasmin, what about for you? What have the last six weeks been like for you?

JASMIN ZINE: Well, I think the last six weeks have been just a whirlwind of grief and horror as we see this genocide unfolding in Palestine. And while I am Muslim and racialized woman, I'm not Palestinian, but I am a scholar of Islamophobia studies and have been looking at the aftermath of events like 911 and how that's impacted Muslim communities in Canada and elsewhere. And in particular. I was looking at the impact and my recent book, Under Siege Islamophobia in the 911 Generation on how those events impacted Muslim youth in Canada. And what I'm seeing now is. A situation that is much worse than what we saw in the aftermath of 911. And I'm also seeing, you know, the impact on young people who, you know, when we go to the protests and we see, you know, families and young people, I'm reminded of the fact that my children grew up going to rallies and demonstrations in support of Palestinian people their entire lives. And therefore, they become quite politicised at a very young age and are aware of what's happening and the precarity of their own identities as Canadian Muslims. And so, you know, that has led to a great deal of anxiety and stress and frustration among Muslim youth in Canada.

MG: Can I ask you about the use of the word genocide, which is a word that I mean, there's a legal definition of it, but it's also a word that is being used outside of those legal. We've spoken with, you know, the executive director of Human Rights Watch who's investigating war crimes and investigating the possibility of of war crimes happening in various corners from various sides. Why do you use that word in particular?

JASMIN ZINE: I think the language of genocide, number one, I think it feels quite self-evident in terms of what we are witnessing. Also, it has been named textbook case of genocide by Holocaust scholars, by U.N. officials and human rights experts. So I think that this term now is widely recognised and widely used, and I think attempts to contested are problematic at this point.

MG: How is what you're seeing right now different from what happened after 911?

JASMIN ZINE: Well, I think it's worse, as what I mentioned, you know, and it's worse because over the past two decades, Islamophobia has laid the groundwork that makes it easier to collectively label and punish Muslim populations. You know, we've seen the global war on terror that's been underpinned by racist ideologies, and that's cast nearly two billion people around the world as violent, fanatical terrorists who threaten democracy, the stability of white nations and Western civilisation. And so that has paved the way for what we're witnessing today in Palestine. And the all too easy equation of Muslims as radicals, terrorists, jihadists, right, as a sort of wholesale label that has led to collective guilt and punishment. Also because those Islamophobic narratives since 911, we've seen the language of colonial racism and Orientalist narratives have been used to fortify global structures of white supremacy and these types of imperial wars. And so when we hear the dehumanising tropes that are applied to racialized Palestinians as barbaric, as human animals, as monsters and so on, we see that that kind of language adds to the ability then to, you know, enact wholesale violence on populations, on entire populations with a certain kind of of impunity. And, you know, you need to construct that that enemy. And, you know, as a media critic, Sam Kean warned in the beginning, we create the enemy before the weapon becomes the image. And so when you are purveying those kinds of images, that facilitates the ability to then go in and enact all sorts of atrocities.

MG: Dalia, there's a distinction that people are making between Islamophobia and anti-Palestinian racism. What is that distinction?

DALIA EL FARRA: Well, characterising anti-Palestinian racism is just this form of phobia really misses the mark because it's very real. I mean, the summer phobia is very real and it's absolutely experienced by many Palestinians. But anti-Palestinian racism isn't just experienced by Muslims or Palestinian Muslims. Mischaracterises the root of this I don't like to use the word conflict, but the root of this conflict is a religious struggle, but it's actually a struggle against settler colonialism. So. So classifying it as a religious struggle is is problematic. It also excludes racism. People of other religions experienced, be they Palestinians or Palestinian allies or people who are speaking up for Palestinian struggles.

MG: You said in the context of what's happening that you feel disenfranchised. I mean, again, in speaking out about this and speaking out in this moment, what does that disenfranchisement to you look like?

DALIA EL FARRA: Well, I can't grieve in peace. There's a constant feeling of being attacked and need to needing to defend myself and just struggling to explain why our children matter, why it's not okay that our children and our people be killed, innocent civilians, and just constantly trying to humanise myself and my people is- as I'm grieving, as I'm watching this horrific genocide unfolding and being attacked as a terrorist supporter or an anti Semitic person just because I'm speaking up for all these war crimes that are happening. The narrative coming from our elected officials, from the media, from the systems that are supposed to support me and keep me safe, they're making me feel vulnerable. They're flaming. They're fanning the flames of hatred. When you have our premier of Ontario calling the pro-Palestinian rallies hate protests, that's not making me feel safe. It makes me feel very disenfranchised. Why that in this day and age, do I have to prove my humanity and the humanity of my people?

MG: What is the action? You said there's government in action. What's the action that you would want to see from government in this moment?

DALIA EL FARRA: Well, ultimately, sanctions on the state of Israel, for sure. But at the very, very minimum, why hasn't our government called for a cease fire? It's been six weeks and the temporary truce is nothing enough. What are we doing? We're pausing for a few days so that you can replenish, hydrate and feed some of the people and then start killing them again.

MG: The line the line from from Bill Blair and others in the government has been that Hamas has been designated a terrorist organisation, that it wouldn't respect a cease fire and that Israel has the right, has the rights to defend itself and to eliminate a threat that it would face from an organisation like Hamas.

DALIA EL FARRA: Hamas is is killing almost 6000 children defending itself. And that's that's the inaction. At what point do they stop feeding into the narrative of this defending itself? It's not, it's not an excuse. What Israel is doing is using Hamas as an excuse to ethnically cleanse an entire population of Palestinians.

MG: What is what does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean to ethnically cleansed an entire population of Palestinians? Because again, you will hear very forceful defences from not just the Canadian government, but elsewhere saying that that's that that's not what's happening. So from your perspective, what does that mean?

DALIA EL FARRA: The remaining residents in the northern parts of Gaza are are packing up to leave because whoever is being stayed, their homes are being demolished. So basically, they're levelling the north of Gaza, forcing everyone to move to the south, which isn't safe because my family lives in the south and they've been under deadly and heavy bombardment since last night. And it's not new. It didn't start on October 7th, Matt. In the West Bank alone, I think we have over 300 people being who've been killed already, Palestinians. And there's no Hamas in the West Bank. Over 3000 political prisoners just since October 7th have been taken in illegally in the West Bank, many of them children. So at what point does this narrative of self-defence become, oh, maybe this is a little more than this and this is a genocide and this is ethnic cleansing and these are war crimes that need to stop. So that's my disappointment in our government.

MG: Jasmin, you work on a university campus, and we have seen many of the discussions that that that you're talking about play out in a very pointed way on those campuses, well documented incidents of Islamophobia, well-documented incidents of anti-Semitism as well. What do you think that those institutions could do to better protect the students who don't feel safe right now, but could also better protect the students who want to express their point of view on what's happening?

JASMIN ZINE: Well, I think what we've been seeing on campuses, not just in Canada, but, you know, around the world, when anyone is speaking out around Palestine is- we're seeing a silencing of free speech. We're seeing, you know, student groups who signed letters in support of Palestinian people at this critical time being, you know, censored. We have the minister of colleges and universities in Ontario in legislature, read out the names of students who signed letters in support of Palestinian people, literally doxing them and putting a target on their back. First of all, this is an issue that shouldn't involve this kind of governmental overreach. And and under no circumstances should the minister be further endangering students who are exercising their right to support the Palestinian people. And so we've seen a lot of student groups being silenced. We've seen also faculty, you know, facing repercussions. Many of the universities across Canada are the faculty associations are passing emergency motions to protect faculty and their right to academic freedom and to be able to weigh in on this conflict through their faculty associations and unions. These are some of the kinds of issues that have been happening on our university campuses even prior to what we're seeing right now. And of course, now there's an escalation in all of these kinds of issues in the way that students on campus are feeling silenced and threatened. And so it's created this sort of chilly climate and actually a climate of fear.

MG: Let me talk just broadly about the moment that we're in, outside of this war. We saw last week in London, Ontario, the man, the man responsible for killing four members of the Afzal family in London, Ontario, was sentenced to life in prison. What impact do you think this ruling is going to have Jasmine on on the conversation around, but also the action that needs to be taken around Islamophobia?

JASMIN ZINE: Well, I think, you know, I think some people might have liked to see charges of terrorism in in that particular ruling.

MG: And that could still.

JASMIN ZINE: Come from the.

MG: Judge's ruling.

JASMIN ZINE: That's right. Yeah. So that could still be enacted. I think it's important that, you know, I think it brings some some sense of, you know, relief to the families that were affected by this. But I think really what this speaks to is the fact that Islamophobia in this country has reached deadly proportions. Not only the attack against the family in 2021, but the Quebec City Mass shooting in 2017. Many other incidents. You know, we had a mosque caretaker who was stabbed to death a couple of years ago. We start to see, you know, so many violent attacks happening even quite recently that you mentioned at the start of this segment. And so there is still that pervasive fear and threat that Muslim populations across this country are dealing with on a day to day basis, and especially those who are more visibly marked as Muslims. Muslim women who wear headscarves, for example, are are going to feel far more vulnerable in the public sphere because of these kinds of attempts. So there is that sense of needing to be far more vigilant about your safety and security and, you know, waiting to see what other measures are going to be implemented by various levels of government to ensure the safety of Muslim communities during these times of crisis, where Islamophobia, anti-Muslim racism, anti-Palestinian racism are heightened.

MG: Dalia, are you hopeful? There was a Senate report on Islamophobia released earlier this month, and it found that many Muslims in Canada experience Islamophobia on a daily basis. We've talked about this on this program in terms of what people face every single day when they go out. Are you confident that change could come out of this report?

DALIA EL FARRA: I can't say I am. Honestly, I wish I could say that. I can't say I am. The reports come out, recommendations come out, and a follow up doesn't actually happen. We're looking at an example for the party commission recommendations. I think we have 94 calls to action and how many have been implemented. And it's been years, I think less than a dozen, if I'm not mistaken. So I'm not holding my breath. I really hope to say. I really wish I could say that. Yeah, I'm feeling hopeful and these are great recommendations. But I don't I don't find, right now I'm not in a place where I feel very hopeful or very confident in in this country's ability to to move forward.

MG: Does that make you feel I mean, as somebody who use that word, disenfranchised, you said that you felt disenfranchised in this moment. Does that make you feel differently about your place in Canadian society?

DALIA EL FARRA: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. And it's not it's not only me. There are a lot of conversations I'm having with people within my community, within other racialized communities who feel this way. And it's it's very sad and it's part of the grief we're feeling and the trauma.

MG: So what do we do about this? Because we're in this moment where there is and the report says it, you're both saying it, people feel it and see it. An increase in Islamophobia. There is a marked increase as well in anti-Semitism right now. When this moment that we're in passes the deep scars of it, it feels like we'll be around for a long time. So what do we do about that?

DALIA EL FARRA: By saying we are you placing the responsibility and the burden of the healing on the people who have been traumatised and scar.

MG: We as a nation, we we as as a people.

DALIA EL FARRA: I, I don't know. I honestly don't know the answer to that. I wish I did. I feel more hopeful, more optimistic. When I immigrated to Canada was, I immigrated from the Middle East because I wanted my children to have roots in a comfort in a country that gave them dignity and respected human rights and freedoms, including freedom of expression. And I wanted them to be the best version of themselves they could be. And I don't see that happening. And this at this moment, I am feeling very disappointed. So I don't know what the answer to that is. I wish I did. And I don't know where the burden of working towards healing should should lie. I mean, who's who's responsible fo- Who has created the harm and who's responsible for fixing the damage?

MG: Jasmin, where do we go from here, do you think?

JASMIN ZINE: I find that equally difficult to answer? Because I've been, you know, given that question since the last 20 years, since the aftermath of 911, where a lot of these same kinds of questions, these same kinds of panels and discussions were taking place, lots of, you know, hate crime incidents, lots of disproportionate violence abroad through the global war on terror.

MG: And you say and you say it's worse now here.

JASMIN ZINE: And I say it's worse now. And, you know, over the past 20 years and in that time, we have had those two deadly terror attacks. We have seen very little in terms of the kind of, you know, changes that have been suggested and recommended through multiple forums. You know, there was a summit on Islamophobia in Canada in 2021, in the summer federal summit, and community members and organisations put forward hundreds of recommendations. We've heard nothing about any of that. While it's helpful to have another report that again reaffirms the fact that Islamophobia is a major, pervasive and deadly issue in this country. And they've also put forward recommendations given where I've been watching these events unfold over the last 20 years in this country, I don't also have much hope that we are going to see any kind of definitive change, even though the stakes are incredibly high.

MG: That's a really hard place to be.

JASMIN ZINE: It is. It is, Yes. It is a hard place to be. And yet we can't sugarcoat the reality and the truth. It's time to confront those difficult truths, those inconvenient truths. And I think only then we will perhaps start to work toward a way forward. But we're definitely not there yet. Mm hmm.

MG: I'm glad to talk to you both about this.

JASMIN ZINE: Thank you.

DALIA EL FARRA: Thanks, Jasmine.

JASMIN ZINE: Thank you, Dahlia.

MG: Jasmin Zine is a professor of sociology, religion and culture at Wilfrid Laurier University. Dalia Al Farra is Palestinian Canadian and works in human rights and equity, diversity and inclusion at the post-secondary level. Well, coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

If we had the money, then we could I guess we probably would start trying to get pregnant immediately. Yeah, that's that's really the only thing that's holding back. We're left in this sort of limbo of do we risk it and try to have children now or do we wait and see if the economy gets a little bit better? So I feel frustrated by not being able to do more. And I feel a lot of grief for the fact that it really is looking like it'll just be us. Is it possible to have grief for something that you haven't had?

MG: More and more of young Canadians say they can't afford to have children. Earlier this week, we brought you that story and we heard how those very personal decisions could affect us all in the future. We got a lot of mail in response to that discussion and we'll hear some of your reaction coming up on the program. And also.

SOUNDCLIP

Imagine. Making a child takes something it doesn't want just because he bought too many of the wrong choices. That's what I've been fighting against for years. The way they commercialised Christmas. Yeah, there's a lot of bad-isms floating around as well. But one of the waste is commercialism. Makeup. Makeup. Even in Brooklyn, it's the same. Don't care what Christmas stands for. Just makeup. Makeup.

MG: It seems not much has changed since 1947, when Miracle on 34th Street first hit the big screen. The holiday season is indeed the biggest shopping time of the year and for some. That season officially starts today with what's known as Black Friday. We'll find out how much Canadians are expected to spend and how many bucks retailers are hoping to make. And if you are worried that you will be tempted, perhaps some advice as well, and how to keep that credit card firmly parked in the wallet. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stick around.

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Seg 3

Guests: Michelle Wasylyshen, Bruce Sellerym Carrie Freestone

MG: Hello again, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, we have a big family. We have eight adult kids and we have ten grandchildren. So probably this year it will be more. I have a part time job, so it gives us a little more. Even though my husband and I are both seniors and on a lesser senior income. Having that freedom of a part time job allows me to have a nice Christmas bonus.

MG: Christmas bonus this Black Friday. Though not everyone is willing to take on a part time job to tackle the cost of holiday spending.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We're definitely being more cognisant of our budgets. Things are becoming more expensive and we're definitely feeling that financial pressure.

VOICE 2: I try to not spend too much at the holidays and try to- My kids are getting older, so I don't typically spend as much as I used to, I think. So we try to do more activities rather than give gifts and we try to not buy in, if you will, to the commercialism of Christmas. There's a lot of pressure to have and get and do things at Christmas. So I just like it to be more relaxing and kind of quiet.

VOICE 1: They send me wish lists and I try and follow them, but they are wildly unrealistic. It's a good time to catch up on things that they need actually, that I don't buy during the year. It's a good time to buy those things. So it seems like a lot, but I'm just buying it at this time of year and making it sound like a present.

VOICE 2: It becomes an issue when I'm trying to spend the same amount, but everything is costing a lot more than that. So I do feel pressure for sure because if I was to keep the same amount of money, our Christmas would look a lot less than years before. So I am looking for bargains. I look online and I have an app for almost every store on my phone and try to get, yeah, the discounts that are offered, especially for Black Friday.

MG: With the rising cost of living and the rising cost for just about everything. Many Canadians will be thinking twice about their spending this holiday season and whether those Black Friday sales will actually soften the blow to their wallet. Michelle Wasylyshen is a spokesperson for the Retail Council of Canada. Michelle, good morning.

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: Hi, Good morning.

MG: We just heard from consumers how much of a financial boost to retailers need right now?

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: Well, they do. I mean, retail has been kind of up and down and all over the map since Covid hit. We have had Covid restrictions in place for. So in some provinces that has meant that stores have been opened and closed. We've had supply chain challenges, labour shortages. And so, you know, this is a really important season. November and December are crucial for retail spending. And it's a time when many businesses bring out their biggest sales. But we know that with the growing financial concerns of consumers like the ones that we just heard on your show, it's, you know, also a really important time when consumers will be looking for those best savings.

MG: Is that why I'm getting endless notifications about sales in my email? If I open the email inbox right now, I mean, that's all it would be. It seems like in the that promotions category is just filled with people saying 20% off, 30% off and more.

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: Right. Or more. I mean, you're right. So November is definitely the busiest shopping season for the holiday season. And so we see that happening right now. And we do an annual holiday shopping survey. And our surveys show that more so than ever, consumers are really looking for different things, right? In order to figure out what stores they're going to go to, they're going to look for, you know, those discounts that free shipping, even types of sustainable products. So, you know, the things that consumers are looking for to bring them into a retailer store to buy that product is bigger than ever. And, you know, as you said, they're looking for those deep discounts.

MG: From that survey that you did. What did you learn about where Canadians are choosing to spend their money?

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: Well, they're choosing to spend their money. It depends on what they deem to be essential. And so for some consumers, that could mean a travel to go and visit a loved one. For other consumers, that could be gift giving. And so our survey does show that consumers are expected to spend more this year than in years past. But we know that they really want to make their budgets go further. So that hasn't changed. And I think that's why we're seeing so Black Friday is the most important holiday shopping day for Canadians in every single province we're seeing. 40% of them said that they will shop on Black Friday, and that's up significantly from last year. It was 28% last year. So I think that if you tie the two together, that really shows that consumers really want and need to make their budgets go further.

MG: I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear that your surveys suggest that people are actually going to spend more. We've been talking in this program, it seems like endlessly about the fact that many Canadians are struggling to I mean, the choice is, you know, heating or eating. People are trying to figure out how to keep the lights on in their homes. And yet you're suggesting that people are actually going to go and spend more on a day like today, but spend more over the course of the holidays?

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: Well, again, it depends on what they deem to be essential. And so some people in our survey have said that they're cutting back on non-essential things. And so what we saw last year and I think we'll continue to see this year is that people are purchasing more mindful gifts as opposed to just anything.

MG: What does that mean, a more mindful gift?

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: Well, things that they need. We also see in our survey this year that more people prefer to have a gift card given to them this year. And that was up from last year, sorry, from last year. And so that means that, you know, they're looking for a gift card instead of a gift so that they can then choose how to spend that money. So it really does I think it's important to see what consumers deem to be essential. Our survey also includes travel. And so what we've seen is that some are saying that they're going to cut back, as I said, on those non-essential gifts, but they are still looking to, you know, give gifts, share gifts with people within their family, and that's considered essential to them. So it really depends on the person. I think it's different.

MG: Given how much is at stake for retailers, you might wonder how much of this is sort of wishful thinking, that if you tell Canadians that more Canadians are actually going to be spending money than Canadians might actually spend money because they think that other Canadians are spending money as well.

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: We definitely see regional variability. We do our annual holiday shopping survey. We have to survey consumers a few months ago. And so you're right, things can change. We are starting to see that consumers are understanding that things will be more expensive, whether or not their, you know, preferences change within those couple of months of the holiday season does remain to be seen. You know, we even if you look at other indicators throughout the year, so just taking a back to school shopping as an example for retailers that really depend on that category, we did see that it was quite soft this year. And so you're right. Retailers are cautiously optimistic. Cautiously is probably the key word.

MG: And so just finally, if Canadians hit the brakes on spending and don't blow the bank or crank up the credit card balance, where does that leave retailers?

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: Well, it that's a good question. I mean, I think we'll have to see. Right. And as I said, retailers are mindful that consumers are looking for those discounts. They're looking for that free shipping. They're looking for those other kind of, you know, special offerings. And so it will be up to retailers to determine what they want to give, how long they want to carry those promotions for. And, you know, we'll see what they have to do to entice people into their stores. But at the end of the day, you know, it really it depends.

MG: We'll see what Canadians are doing, what they're going to pull that wallet out and pull the credit card out of the wallet. Michelle, thank you very much.

MICHELLE WASYLYSHEN: Thank you for having me.

MG: Michelle Wasylyshen is the national spokesperson for the Retail Council of Canada to get a better sense of what holiday spending means for Canadians bottom lines, particularly at a time, as I say, when everything seems to cost more and people are struggling to meet those costs. I'm joined by Bruce Sellery. He is the CEO of Credit Canada. Also CBC Radio's Money columnist. And joined in studio by Carrie Freestone, who's an economist at Royal Bank of Canada. Good morning to you both.

GUESTS: Good morning. Good morning.

MG: Bruce, how are Canadians spending our money now?

BRUCE SELLERY: Carefully, cautiously and painfully. The price they pay on virtually everything has gone up so dramatically. And those credit card bills show them every single month how fast so many people are living beyond their means. So I think they are cautious and I am deeply sceptical about the survey results that you just overview. I mean, what we say as Canadians versus what we do is very, very different.

MG: Carrie, this is top of mind for you as well, what we say versus what we do, in part because you've been tracking Canadian spending all year long.

CARRIE FREESTONE: Absolutely. And I can say that we've definitely into the fall. Seen a pretty significant pullback in discretionary goods and services spending. People are spending less on sporting goods, on hobbies, on electronics, luxury goods, as while jewellery sales are way down because consumers are paring back. And at the same time, I can also say that discretionary services sector spending is also softer. So if we're thinking about, you know, restaurant spending, it's been down for three consecutive months. People are booking fewer trips, people are booking fewer hotels and flights, and instead they're focusing on essentials. I can tell you that as of September, our own RBC cardholder spent 10% more on essentials than the year prior. So that's thinking about groceries, gasoline, utilities and phone bills. So consumers are definitely feeling the pinch and it's showing up in physical merchandise sales for sure.

MG: Is there dissonance between what people what we say we're going to do and what we actually do? We might talk a good game one way or the other, but when we get out or when we get online, is there a difference between the two?

CARRIE FREESTONE: I think that's definitely the case. You know, when we get out to stores and we see the prices and we get to the checkout, we put some items back because we realise that, you know, we don't want to spend the prices that we're seeing. And I was also very surprised to see, you know, the survey results yesterday because it's very much at odds with what our own cardholder data is telling us that consumers are doing, which is slowing down.

MG: Bruce, as the CEO of Credit Canada, I mean, part of this is, you know, you would hear from people who perhaps have spent a bit too much who are in a precarious state. What are you hearing? Who's calling you and what are they saying?

BRUCE SELLERY: Well, I'm going to tell you first the number of people who are calling. So in October alone, our call volumes were up 38%. So we are enacting all of our surge plans with everybody picking up the phone. And what they're calling to say is they just can't manage the level of debt that they have. And I think a really important part of this conversation is that we remove the morality about that because there's a lot of finger wagging, a lot a lot of kissing about people who have high levels of consumer debt. And what we hear is these real visceral, tragic stories of how they have come to be in the situation that they're in. It's not because they just saw a great Black Friday deal and they couldn't resist. People are dealing with root causes mental health, physical health, you know, job insecurity, not earning a living wage, all these sorts of things that are coming to a head when it comes to their ability to pay off that credit card every single month.

MG: And yet, as I said, if I were to open my email right now, it would be filled. I know this because I saw it earlier this morning with people who are tempting me to pull that credit card out, to spend on things that I may not need, but maybe I want. So what is what should people consider before they they withdraw the credit card from wherever is stored?

BRUCE SELLERY: The number one thing that is we have to reframe our thinking here. Black Friday is sold as the best opportunity of the year for bargains in my inbox to share the joy with epic deals. And underneath there's a photo of an electric toothbrush, 15% off an electric. That's joy. This is how we define joy?

MG: Clean teeth are good. But anyway.

BRUCE SELLERY: It's so good. But retailers are not doing you a favour. This is hugely profitable for them. And you're not some brave, skilled hunter who is landing the prize. They're hunting you, not the other way around. So rather than save 15% or 50% on Black Friday, save 100% and don't buy anything at all. I'm looking at the Google Earth right now and I'm seeing all the people who are listening to CBC, what they're driving to the mall. They're u-turning in mass numbers and heading back to the safety of their homes.

MG: You know, who would not be happy about that, Carrie, are the businesses who would like your your money because when you talk to small businesses in particular but broader it's make or break in many ways. And they have seen you've talked about this. People are spending less money. So how are businesses coping with that, reduce spending?

CARRIE FREESTONE: I think it's definitely a challenge for businesses, but of course, there's ebbs and flows, right? So, you know, we had a very high level of pent up demand post-pandemic people were spending. Now we're seeing a pullback as obviously the Bank of Canada raised interest rates by 475 basis points. People are seeing their mortgage payments go up drastically. Households are spending 14% of their take home pay on servicing debt. So it's no wonder that, you know.

MG: Say that again.

CARRIE FREESTONE: 14% of their take home pay on servicing debt. Wow. So it's up quite a bit. So, you know, businesses are definitely going to be challenged this holiday season once we start to see the Bank of Canada cut rates next year, things will ease up and we'll see a rebound in spending. But I think this year is going to be challenging for businesses and that's the reality.

MG: Is your sense that people, the money that they are spending, if they are spending, it, is your sense that people are spending it online or are they going to bricks and mortar? There's that, you know, shop, Main Street shop, local kind of campaigns in various neighbourhoods in big cities and small towns where people spending the money that they are.

CARRIE FREESTONE: That's a great question. So during the pandemic, a large share of purchases were made online. It went up to 11% of all retail sales were conducted online. Now, it's definitely. Lower. So people are returning to bricks and mortar stores. However, you know, we're still seeing the share of goods that are purchased online is twice as high as it was before the pandemic, and it's sitting at about 6% right now. So the majority of purchases are being made at bricks and mortar stores. And we're definitely seeing, you know, people returning to in-person shopping.

MG: That's really interesting. I mean, in part just because of how attractive it is to buy something online that- and Bruce, you would know about this as well, that it's almost easier to spend that money if you don't have to get out of the, you know, robe that you're in and leave the house.

BRUCE SELLERY: Yeah. The science illustrates how well credit cards anaesthetise the pain of spending. So when we use plastic, it just doesn't feel like our money. So if you take on one action as you head to the mall and say, listen, I'm going to the bank first and I'm withdrawing crisp twenty's and what I'm spending is only what's in my wallet. I guarantee you you will spend less than if you transacted with a credit card. Every study has shown this. Now it's hard to do. We live in a society that is nearly cashless. But if you're someone who actually wants to limit your spending not just today but through the holiday season, move to cash. It's such an annoying thing to do and it will support your future you.

MG: What about that? Michelle talked about how people are spending on essentials. What about the divide between want and need?

BRUCE SELLERY: It is a spectrum and it is exceedingly difficult for people to discern what truly is a want and truly is. And it's very, very personal. So I was talking to someone yesterday who said, well, I'm going to spend money on Black Friday for new pyjamas that my kid needs. And I'm thinking, okay, look, let's really dissect this. When you say need, what do you mean? You have a child who hasn't had new pyjamas in four years and they've grown four inches or they just love being surrounded by fleece on Christmas morning and all that that lives in the land of want. But it is so, so critical for individuals to reset that for themselves and for their families. And that's not an easy conversation to have. So if you're saying, oh my God, they're making so much sense on The Current, it's so great. This requires a reset of expectations in advance. If your spouse is used to getting a cashmere sweater every year. Don't just surprise them with an air fryer. I hope you like it. I saw it and thought you just let it know. You need to talk about it in advance and reset and say, Listen, how about we spend differently this holiday? And if that conversation is tough for you. Throw me under the bus. Say, I was listening to The Current that Matt Galloway so smart. He was talking about Black Friday and we need to reset expectations this year.

MG: You said that, not me, by the way. Just throw Bruce Sellery under the bus, not Matt Galloway. If people are making these decisions, how does this affect the overall economy?

CARRIE FREESTONE: Well, I can say that it affects real GDP growth. So retail sales numbers for Q three are definitely looking a lot weaker and we are expecting that the data will show us that right now we're in a recession. And what that means is we have a few quarters of negative growth and so demand is cooling. It's a sign to us that the Bank of Canada's rate hikes are working, but it's going to be harder on businesses in the near term for sure.

MG: Just finally, Bruce, we just have a minute or so left. It's life is really hard right now. The news is terrible. It's dark early. It seems like it's cloudy a lot. People might want to splurge a little bit. How could that how could they do that? Just very briefly, how can they do that to offer themself a little bit of something nice if they can? And it does matter. It doesn't need to be really expensive, but just something nice in a really difficult year.

BRUCE SELLERY: 100% abstinence does not work. So if we say zero spending on anything, then people just give up and they splurge. Be thoughtful about what provides you joy. It's probably not an electric toothbrush. So think about maybe it's tickets to a show. Maybe it's a meal. What is that thing? And have it be 1 or 2 things that are deeply important to you and your family and not the other stuff that we get into? Because so much of our spending isn't a tradition. It is a habit. It's just what we do every year. So if you're going to take one thing away from this conversation, I would say make those choices, but also write it all down on a piece of paper. All the things the food, the charity, the entertainment, travel. Add it all up and determine how you're going to fund it, because I don't want to be having a conversation with you in June about how people are still sitting on a massive amount of credit card debt.

MG: And, Carrie, your sense is people are already making those choices and are already making having those conversations.

CARRIE FREESTONE: Absolutely. We're already seeing it in the data and I expect that it will continue through the near term.

MG: Good to talk to you both. Thank you very much.

BRUCE SELLERY: Thank you.

MG: Bruce Celery is the CEO of Credit Canada. He's also CBC Radio's Money columnist. And Carrie Freestone is an economist at RBC. Your thoughts on this? Welcome. You can email us. Are you spending less? How are you making those choices? And what is and is not being deemed to be an essential a want versus a need? You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca.

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MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway. Canada's fertility rate is at an all time low. A growing number of young Canadians are deciding to delay having children or not have them at all. These decisions are complicated, but what we just spent a bunch of time talking about is connected to that, and that is the cost of living crisis. The Current. Kate Cornick brought us that story earlier this week. Many of you wrote in with your own experiences of parenthood. And Kate is here with some of your mail. Kate. Good morning.

KATE CORNICK: Morning, Matt. Let's start with Iris Loots in Calgary, who writes, My husband and I are in our mid-thirties with a joint income of $190,000. We regularly discuss whether or not to have children, but are deciding against it for both environmental and economic reasons. We frequently wonder why our political leaders do not take this issue more seriously. We often feel that politicians are only concerned about the GDP stats with no regard to the actual well-being of everyday Canadians, including those who have recently come to Canada in search of a better life. The days of raising a family on a single income are long gone. As a business owner with no maternity benefits, it would be incredibly challenging to get by if we had a child. We currently rent our home and often wonder if we should continue to save for a home down payment or if we should set aside some savings to be able to get through maternity leave on a single income.

MG: John Lovelace writes I'm a father of two wonderful girls and a husband to an amazing mother. We are both employed and we are struggling more than ever to make ends meet. We're finding it difficult to provide even the essentials. Anyone hesitating to commit to having children now, in my opinion, is exercising some common sense.

KATE CORNICK: Rachel Cairns in Toronto writes I'm very much in the same boat as folks like Asia and Madeleine who want kids but just can't make the math math. I'm the creator of Abortion, a podcast about abortion in Canada, some constantly talking to people about their reproductive choices. One of the most common phrases that echoes through these conversations is there's never a perfect time to start a family. I bristle every time I hear this because it feels like a collective resignation to displace the responsibility from the public policies, systems and structures and political choices that are making the cost of caregiving and just life in general increasingly prohibitive.

MG: Ashley Girard writes The topic today of having children or more children in this day and age really hit home. I'm 37 years old. I have two children due to availability of childcare in rural central Ontario. I can only work part time running my own business. I've struggled for the last two years deciding whether or not I'd like to have a third child. In my heart, I really would. But having to take a break from my business with none of the income coming in would mean living paycheque to paycheque on my husband's income for a while. I wish it was easier to make this decision like it was for my parents who had three children and my mother didn't have to work at all. Now both parents have to work to get ahead.

KATE CORNICK: This next one is from Sandra Dawn. Thanks for creating more awareness about this important issue regarding low fertility in Canada. My therapist said that I could always make more money later when I was questioning my ability to have a second child, but my lack of a village and finances stopped me from doing so. I've always felt like an empowered woman until I was faced with the lack of childcare. I struggle to find private childcare and only received affordable child care when my son was three. I am lucky to live in Quebec because they have affordable yet limited childcare. I gave up on my dream of having two kids for my mental, physical, financial and marital health.

MG: Kathleen Vowinckel in Prince Edward County writes These are difficult choices for would be parents. That amount of $300,000 to raise a child struck me. I'm almost 80. I have raised three children and have five grandchildren. The change in expectations over the generations certainly adds to costs. These days, so many parents feel their children have to have at least two extra curricular activities on a weekly basis. The newest toys are required new clothing and annual trips somewhere exotic. What kids need is love, hopefully some stability and unstructured places to roam.

KATE CORNICK: [redacted] writes I'm 32 years old. I got married at 26, had my first child at 27 and my second at 31. I have a master's degree and a good career. My husband has a good career and works from home mostly. I'm currently on a stress leave from work because despite the fact that my husband and I have a shared responsibility in childcare, we are both so burnt out. I've developed an autoimmune disease due to the stress. Working women with kids constantly talk about how stressful it is to juggle all these responsibilities. The stress is unsustainable.

MG: Sheila Gregory in Newmarket, Ontario writes Don't forget that US would be grandmas are affected too. I long for grandchildren, but my daughter is in the exact position described on your program this morning. She wanted children, but it's just a fantasy in this world now. She has a modest salary as a writer editor for a small music entertainment magazine here in Toronto. She lives in a constant state of anxiety that she will be rent evicted from her basement apartment and unable to find an affordable place to live. Her. Who would take a chance on having children under these conditions. She's in her 30s and of course, time is running out. I wish I could give her a salary or win the lottery so she can have kids and I would not have this hole in my heart where my grandchildren should be. Wow, that is sad. But a reflection on the story that you brought us this week. Kate, thank you very much.

KATE CORNICK: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Kate Cornick is a producer here at The Current. You can comment on anything you hear on this program. Get in touch. The email address is thecurrent@cbc.ca. That is the current for this Friday and for this week. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. This week you might have heard the Rolling Stones announced stops for their upcoming tour. If you didn't hear it, Tom Powers interview with Mick Jagger earlier this year was fantastic for a bunch of reasons. You can find it on the CBC Listen app or through the q podcast. One of the reasons why it was interesting is that at 80 years old, Mick Jagger is incredibly energetic but also looking forward, not looking back at all. It's interesting, though. This tour is sponsored by the American Association of Retired Persons. Mick Jagger is not a retired person. Mick Jagger is very, very active in his day job in every other job. If you are looking for tickets, Vancouver fans can see the only Canadian concert announced thus far. It happens next July. For the rest of us who may not be able to go or perhaps just can't afford to go because it's going to be expensive. Here's a live version of a Rolling Stones classic. It start Me up. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend. We'll see on Monday.

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Friday November 24, 2023 Transcript

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