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The Current Transcript for August 21, 2023

Host: Susan Bonner

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

FORREST TOWER: The fire made up about a 20 kilometre run in under 12 hours. If we think of some of our previous seasons, I don't know of a fire travelled that far in that short of time.

SB: Thousands of Canadians and many communities in upheaval this morning. In the Northwest Territories and British Columbia, wildfires threaten cities and towns. People uprooted to evacuation centres, some very far from home, and many aren't sure what they'll return to when they do go back. That's in a moment. Then.

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ED YONG: Is it right that these incredible creatures should bear the names of people who have committed atrocities? Is it right that those people should continue to be honoured in this way and can we do something about that?

SB: There is a reckoning happening in the bird world. Birders are confronting the problematic pasts of the people whose names some birds now bear. But what's the best way to pick a new name if the old one goes? That story in 30 minutes. Plus, in an hour, we continue the CBC podcast The Outlaw Ocean. Today's episode focuses on the cruise industry. But we begin with fires in the north and west. Hello, I'm Susan Bonner, in for Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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NWT FIRE WEEKEND

Guests: Jennifer Krahn, Kieron Testart, Harjit Sajjan

SB: In the Northwest Territories and British Columbia, wildfires have driven thousands of Canadians from their homes. British Columbia has declared a state of emergency due to fires in the Kelowna area, and more than 30,000 people are under evacuation orders. Jennifer Krahn had to leave West Kelowna late last week with her two children. We’re reaching her in her mother's home in Peachland, B.C. Jennifer, hello.

JENNIFER KRAHN: Good morning, Susan.

SB: How are you and your family doing?

JENNIFER KRAHN: Well, it’s day by day out here. We're keeping an eye to see what the latest is and we're doing all right.

SB: You're not very far from where you left. I understand you're in Peachland, which is, what, about a 20-minute drive. I'm wondering how the air is there this morning.

JENNIFER KRAHN: Well, I'm actually sitting outside just so I wouldn't wake anybody. It's fairly early out here. And I'll tell you, I think it's thicker today than it was yesterday. And it is pretty, pretty smokey out here right now.

SB: What was the weekend like for you?

JENNIFER KRAHN: Well, we spent time here with family. My mom is here. My dad is out in Manitoba on business, so he's not here. But it's my kids and myself and then my mother-in-law and brother-in-law, they've been… this is their fourth spot that they're evacuating to. So and we've taken some other people over here for dinner, etc. But we've just been kind of hunkering down here and trying to stay out of the way of the emergency crews.

SB: You talk about so many people in so many different places. I know that yesterday, you went to an evacuation centre where you, I guess, encountered a lot of people from your community. What was it like? what were people telling you? What was the mood?

JENNIFER KRAHN: Yeah. So yesterday, I did take a drive just to get a feel for what's going on in the community. I've lived here just over 20 years and of course, I ran into a lot of people that I knew there. And I will say as I drove up, my heart started to race. It was quite something to see. It was a parking lot full of people who looked, I guess, lost. It looked like a scene from a movie. But the one thing that I will say is the volunteers were amazing. There were people everywhere handing out fresh, you know, sandwiches and water and snacks and hot dogs and there were volunteers everywhere. So the way that the community came together in terms of giving back was amazing and beautiful to see.

SB: Yeah. You were looking at people who managed to get out. But can I take you back to Thursday night when you had to leave? Tell me what was going through your mind as you evacuated.

JENNIFER KRAHN: Well, I think during the day, it was fine, but it all sort of came upon us pretty quickly when the power went out and everything was pitch black. The street, the homes, everything just went quiet and black. And at that point, we sort of scrambled around to get the rest of our things together. And as I drove away from the home, and this was about 11 p.m., that was quite a feeling. It was an ominous feeling and just drove away slowly. You know, this is the community that we know and love and we know all the people and certainly not knowing what I was headed to. And as I came down the hill and turned the corner, all I saw was flashing police cars. And I looked to my left and the entire hill right by my home was completely engulfed in flames. So I just… it was a moment of sort of a terrifying moment, just like, you know, this is really close to our home. And I just drove away from my home thinking, I don't know, You know, hopefully we come back here.

SB: And you're in the car at that point with your two children. What was that like for you?

JENNIFER KRAHN: Actually, so I was driving away alone because I have… my daughter’s 18 and my son is 20. So we filled all of our cars. We each have our own car. So and my daughter had her friend with her. So I was in the car by myself, but yes, I was…

SB: Oh, that must have been even another consideration that you're not even together at that point. What was going through your mind?

JENNIFER KRAHN: Yeah, you're right, Susan. That's true. My daughter, again, she's 18 and we were headed to my mom's. And really, what I wanted to do was turn my car left and go to where all the people were watching to see what was happening, but I couldn't turn left. I had to turn right to make sure to see my daughter's car and where she was going. It was just a moment of let's stick together. Absolutely.

SB: Do you know what state your house is in at this point?

JENNIFER KRAHN: So we had cameras at the front and the back of our home, which for the first couple of days was very comforting because I was able to see that everything was fine. But I lost cameras, I believe it was almost two days ago now. And so but I found out just about maybe 24 hours ago that one of my neighbours does still have a camera and it looks like everything's fine over there. So I'm pretty confident that we're fine. Though, I know that just right in our neighbourhood, I know there's been quite a number of homes lost, but I do think that my home is okay.

SB: I can hear in your voice just the relief that sounds when you just describe that.

JENNIFER KRAHN: Well, this is, you know, again, like, you know, it's just myself and my two kids that live there. So that is our home. And this is where we, you know, we have friends over all the time. This is all of our memories of my kids growing up. So no, this is a… and I know friends already that think they have lost their home, so I'm just traumatized for them. So yes, I guess personally, I feel like I feel relief in the fact that I feel fairly confident that our home is standing.

SB: Well, Jennifer, we wish you the best. I hope you get to go back to your home safe and sound, and I wish the best for you and your community.

JENNIFER KRAHN: Thank you so much. And I just want to take this moment to thank all the relief workers. It's an impossible job they're doing and we just bless them and thank them for everything they're doing. We're so grateful and thank you for your time.

SB: Thank you. Take care.

JENNIFER KRAHN: Yeah, you too. Bye bye.

SB: Bye. Jennifer Krahn had to leave her house in West Kelowna, British Columbia, on Thursday night. In the Northwest Territory, hundreds of wildfires are still burning, but the capital city, a virtual ghost town, was not hit by flames on the weekend as officials had feared. 19,000 of Yellowknife’s 20,000 residents have fled, and the threat remains, with fires still about 15 kilometres from the city. Kieron Testart is director of Economic Development of Yellowknife’s Dene First Nation. He stayed in the city to help provide essential services. Hello, Kieron.

KIERON TESTART: Hi Susan. Good morning.

SB: Yellowknife is nearly empty. The mayor described it as a ghost town. How would you describe what it feels like in the city right now?

KIERON TESTART: Well, I think it's almost like being in the eye of a hurricane. You know, it's very still, very calm. There's not many people around except people who are committed to the fire effort. But we know that the fire is at our doorstep and any day, that situation could change. So, you know, there's a kind of… that calm is really helpful for the work we have to do, but we do know the risks involved.

SB: How's the weather? It's helping a little bit. You've had some rain?

KIERON TESTART: Last night, we had a thunderstorm, actually. And it was very welcome to feel that rain coming down and, you know, seeing puddles, waking up to puddles on the road. It's a really good sign for the effort.

SB: What about lightning, the risk of lightning with the thunder storm?

KIERON TESTART: Yeah, there was some lightning. And I can tell you I had a lot of anxiety when I saw those strikes last night, but I haven't heard any reports since that new fires have started. The rain has been really helpful again for helping our frontline workers build defences and our fire crews to continue their attack on the fire. It does not mean this is over. The fire is not out, but these conditions are helping us keep the city safe and keep the fire at bay.

SB: And that's why you stayed to try to protect infrastructure and essential services. Can you tell me what you're doing in that effort?

KIERON TESTART: Yeah. We are… So I work for the Yellowknife Dene First Nation, which is a community inside the city just at the highway. And we are continuing, the staff and I are continuing to maintain municipal services and protect critical infrastructure. We do safety checks for the remaining members of the First Nation who stayed behind every day, twice a day, and we're working to provide resources to the people who have been evacuated.

SB: So when you talk about infrastructure, what are we talking about? Water, power, what are you trying to do?

KIERON TESTART: Water. So one of the communities is on trucked water. So water deliveries are continuing to the homes that have members and the sewage system is being maintained as well. And then any kind of municipal works that have to be done, garbage collection and disposal, making sure we have an evacuation plan if things require further evacuation and shelter in place plan. So yesterday, we were putting cots and sleeping bags and water into a central area in case things, you know, the worst does in fact happen.

SB: You talk about the potential worst and evacuation plans. At what point will you have to leave? What is your bar?

KIERON TESTART: When there's a risk to life, that's when we are going to get out. It's thankfully not come to that. And we're continuing to work with the city of Yellowknife and territorial officials to make sure we have a coordinated response to this. And we're listening to them. We're listening to the experts. And that's something that is really important right now, is to listen to the experts, listen to the official information and don't make assumptions about what you may see on social media or even on the news. You know, it's really important to listen to the people on the ground here because we're doing a very difficult job and we need everyone pulling together to get that job done.

SB: You talked about feeling some anxiety when the thunder and rain came last night. How's your anxiety level overall today as you look forward to another day?

KIERON TESTART: Oh, fine. You know, it's more of the lightning that causes the anxiety. You know, it's… like I said, there's a calm to this that allows me to focus on my work. I had to say goodbye to my wife and kids, my parents, and I'm happy to know that they're safe. And knowing they're safe lets me focus on keeping other people safe in town who have stayed behind and working to support the efforts up here. And I've been doing that every day. We've been working long hours, but that's what we've signed up for. So I'm happy to focus on that work because yeah, it keeps me sane, I guess.

SB: Well, we wish you safety and all the luck in the world as you face whatever is coming at you next, and thank you so much for taking the time today.

KIERON TESTART: Thank you, Susan.

SB: Kieron Testart is director of Economic Development of Yellowknife’s Dene First Nation. The Federal government has pledged to support communities affected in both the Northwest Territories and British Columbia in the days and weeks ahead, and the Canadian Armed Forces are on the ground in the affected areas. Harjit Sajjan is the Minister of Emergency Preparedness. He's in Vancouver this morning. Minister, Hello.

HARJIT SAJJAN: Good morning.

SB: Thanks for making the time for us today. I know this is a busy time for everyone in that part of the world. British Columbia has declared a state of emergency. Tell me what that means for the federal government's response and what the government is doing to support people affected by the fires in Kelowna and the Shuswap area.

HARJIT SAJJAN: Absolutely. First of all, my heart goes out to all those people who are affected by the wildfires across the country, especially right now in B.C. and in the Northwest Territories. And I just want to give my awesome heartfelt thanks to all the first responders, the firefighters, the volunteers who are doing amazing work and people who are staying behind to help their communities as the previous caller was just talking about. And when it comes to the federal response, what we do is the government operations centre works very closely with all the emergency operations centre across provinces and territories and monitor the situation literally day by day and in some cases, hour by hour. And what that allows us to do is get a situational awareness to look at what type of resources are currently needed. And then we get ready additional federal resources if they're going to be needed. So we don't wait for an ask to come and get resources ready to go. A tool, for example, just most recently, the cleanup force have been here since July. But when the Kelowna fire picked up, we were already prepared and I called the minister to let them know that we had additional troops ready to go. But more importantly, become an operation centre because of situational awareness. They also had additional federal resources, the Coast Guard, because we knew it was going to be on a league providing incident command system. Even Transport Canada and the Canadian Forces, literally within a day, not only were ready to go, we had a team on the ground within a day and a half doing a reconnaissance. And I believe that's either complete or will be completed by today. And so that's how it works. It's almost… it's a seamless system that works literally day by day together. And what we want to do is, the goal is always to have resources ready to go and ready to respond immediately in anticipation of any emergency. And that's what's taking place right now in B.C.

SB: So that is the emergency response in B.C. Can I turn your attention now to the Northwest Territories where tens of thousands of people have had to leave their homes? Two thirds of the territory affected by this fire. What is being done to help the people in the Northwest Territories? Beyond the immediate emergency of getting people out, what's being done to help people?

HARJIT SAJJAN: That's a great question. In fact, it's very similar to what I just said. And again, originally, if you go back a bit, the fire that's actually still going on in the Shuswap area and then we had a still use, we were very closely monitoring what was taking place in the Northwest Territories early on. Originally, there wasn't, the fire wasn't affecting Yellowknife. It was affecting Fort Smith and some of the other communities. But the situation got worse. I remember talking to Minister Thompson and saying, you know, I think we're okay. We don't have to call a state of emergency. And then literally two hours later, he called me up and he goes, listen, we're going to do this. We're going to need this, this and this. And because we were already in good discussions and the government operation centre already knew what was going on, we had contingency plans in place to provide additional military support. What was also needed was planners, incident command planners to help the Northwest Territories as they were moving out. We needed to make sure that the right people were there for the planning. So a prudent plan was put into place and they worked together to get people out by road. And then we had enough aircraft ready to go for the evacuation. And just to let you know, now, even as the evacuation is pretty much complete, we're already making contingency plans in if the worst case scenario is over, what do we do to how to get people back in, what type resources are going to be required. And we're even actually going beyond that and looking at what would recovery look like, what type of support will be needed.

SB: Okay. Can I stop you there, Minister, and ask you specifically, because the premier of the Northwest Territories, Caroline Cochrane, has said last night that the Federal Government has been there to help with the emergency response. But Prime Minister Justin Trudeau did not commit in his conversation with her yesterday to financial support for the people who've had to evacuate. Can you tell us how much financial support there will be for people who did get out and need help?

HARJIT SAJJAN: Well, actually, so what we have is what's called the disaster, the financial assistance arrangement. And what that takes place is the funding is requested based on what the actual needs are. And we have a team already supporting Northwest Territories. I spoke with Minister Thompson about this and advised him that even with what's taking place is to take a look at what will be the kind of the cost that's going to be required. And so we’re already leaning forward on looking at what will be the recovery costs for people on the evacuation or what they need for even some pieces in terms of rebuild. So we're walking through the process.

SB: And lost income. Will there be help for lost income?

HARJIT SAJJAN: So we will take a look at and talk with other departments when it comes to unemployment insurance. Other departments will also look at it. So every department within our government is seized with it up to including even, for example, in some cases were farmers have lost livestock. So we will look at this. And what we want to do is give absolute confidence that one, we’ll deal with the emergency side and that the federal government will be there for the recovery as well.

SB: Well, Minister SAJJAN, we appreciate your time this morning. I do appreciate that it's early there and you've taken the time to talk to us. Thank you so much.

HARJIT SAJJAN: Nice talking to you. Thank you.

SB: HARJIT SAJJAN is the Minister of Emergency Preparedness. The CBC News is coming up next. Then we'll continue our coverage of these wildfires. Every summer brings more and more disastrous fires. So what are we doing about it and how do we build a resilient future? That's coming up in six minutes. I'm Susan Bonner. The Current will be right back.

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NWT FIRE WEEKEND

Guest: John Vaillant

SB: I'm Susan Bonner and this is The Current. Before the news, we heard from people facing the wrath of wildfires in Yellowknife and West Kelowna and also from the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Harjit Sajjan. Wildfires have been the story of the summer, dominating headlines and devastating communities. There's no sign that's about to change in the years to come. John Vaillant is the author of “Fire Weather”, a look at the 2016 Fort McMurray wildfire. Hello, John.

JOHN VAILLANT: Hey, good morning, Susan.

SB: How are you thinking this morning about these massive fires in B.C. and the Northwest Territories?

JOHN VAILLANT: Well, I don't think any of us really saw this coming. And what we're seeing is a really terrifying replay of you know what in 2016 was a massive but at least kind of isolated event in the form of Fort McMurray and the idea of dealing with fires on that scale, Kelowna, Yellowknife. There are actually a thousand fires burning across the country right now as of Sunday. 650 of them are out of control. And as the Minister just said, these situations can change with incredible speed literally in hours. And so I'm really nervous. And I think a lot of the people listening and a lot of the people watching the smoke on their respective horizons are really uncertain and they're being at the mercy of the weather, which Fort McMurray was, which Yellowknife is now, which Fort Smith is now, which Yellowknife is now is a very… it's kind of a disempowering position to be in. And people are watching the sky in this very old fashioned kind of ancient way looking for the signs. And in the meantime, we're living in the modern world trying to live at that pace with those kinds of… that kind of safety that we expect and we don't have it. That security isn't there anymore. And so there is this… I feel like there's a kind of massive national reckoning underway with these massive new changes that we're facing.

SB: Well, what have we learned from the past fires? You mentioned Fort McMurray, Alberta, also Lytton, B.C. What have we learned from those fires that we're seeing now applied here?

JOHN VAILLANT: Oh, I think that the most important one, Susan, is a preemptive evacuation. And anyone who's been through a rushed evacuation, including people who evacuated Enterprise and Fort Smith in the Northwest Territories last week, who've been evacuating West Kelowna, it's terrifying in a way that is really hard to convey unless you've been in it. And then especially when you're trying to keep loved ones safe, when you're trying to keep them calm. The scenes that were described to me just recently, but also in Fort McMurray, are harrowing. And when you evacuate pre-emptively, as people have done from Yellowknife, it's a colossal inconvenience. It's a temporarily life changing inconvenience, but you are avoiding much worse traumas that way. And you're also saving lives, really untold lives. And you can't put a price on that. And I think when all is said and done, even if the fire doesn't enter Yellowknife, which it sounds like people are working 24 seven to keep from happening, you'll be really glad that you took those precautions.

SB: I want to ask you how you think fires have changed since you started tracking them.

JOHN VAILLANT: Well, I call it 21st century fire in the book, and that's because right around 2000, we started seeing much more explosive conditions. And B.C. and Alberta were really on the front lines of that. The Okanagan Park Fire in 2003 lost 250 structures, and people were seeing scenes very similar to what we just saw in Kelowna, these entire hillsides in flames and dozens of homes going up at once and really frightening evacuations and this sense of where does it end? And that really gives people a lot of anxiety and rightly so. And then even before that was a really famous but unsung fire, which is the Chisholm Fire. It didn't impact lives and communities, but it generated more fire intensity than any other fire on earth. And that came out of Alberta in 2001. And then there was a fire tornado in Redding, California, in 2018. Of course, Fort McMurray. There was Slave Lake. So what we're seeing are these massive explosively energetic fires that are the result of centuries, at this point, of a relentless CO2 generation from industrial fossil fuels, and also this steady drying of the landscape. The boreal is really going through a massive slow motion transformation right now and turning into a much more flammable place.

SB: And are governments and first responders prepared for that?

JOHN VAILLANT: No, they're not. And we as a nation and as a continent, frankly, and really honestly, Susan, as a planet, are playing a really awkward game of catch up. And we're seeing that play out in real time in places like Yellowknife and Fort Smith and Kelowna, where firefighters are literally inventing new firefighting techniques on the fly, that are integrating municipal techniques with wildfire techniques up in Yellowknife. In that area, they've got now gigantic sprinkler systems running not through fire hoses, but through 12-inch lines, almost like small culverts that are able to shower entire communities in water and create massive water curtains. This is pretty new, but it really can save communities. And what we're being invited to do now in the most brutal way is to update to 21st century standards of fire, and we're seeing people do that. You know, we're on the back foot right now. But as we heard from Kieron in Yellowknife, you know, they're getting a grip on it. And I feel really hopeful that Yellowknife will be spared. Fort Smith is another question.

SB: What about Canada's overall position as compared to other parts of the world? How does our fire strategy stack up?

JOHN VAILLANT: That's, you know, I think evacuation, we are getting a lot more experience than most other places. You know what we've seen horribly in Spain and Portugal, Greece, in California and Hawaii are evacuations with fatalities. And what we saw out of Enterprise and out of Fort Smith, we saw cars caught on the road, burned over on the road, but the inhabitants, the human inhabitants in any case escaped. Some of the animals did not. We've had some really, really close calls. And that's why pre-emptive evacuation is really key because it changes so fast. And when you're caught on the road, you are a sitting duck. And Canada's really been lucky. But also, you know, I think people have left when they watch the sky. And that's really what we have to do. It sounds so primitive in a way, but that's where the information is. That's what the experts are doing right now. And I think what we're seeing is a real time, very rapid shift. And there's also now funding for a firefighting program that will integrate wildland and urban techniques. And that's going to be crucial. That's the WUI. That's the wildland urban interface where half of Canada lives. And that's where the most dynamic and dangerous fires take place, and we're dialling into that right now in some powerful ways.

SB: How do you see our relationship to fire changing in the coming days, John, to coming decades, really?

JOHN VAILLANT: Yeah, Susan, this is going to be with us for the rest of our lives. And that's a really painful thing to consider. This is not a freak event. I started writing about Fort McMurray in 2016 because I could see then that this was not a freak event. You know, I saw Chisholm, saw Okanagan Park, saw Slave Lake, saw California and said, okay, you know, Fires is entering a kind of new age of intensity, and we're going to have to catch up to that, that it moves faster, it burns hotter, it flies farther on the wind in the form of embers. Those embers are more likely to ignite wherever they land than they used to be. And that's what we're discovering in really painful ways. But now, you know, we have all these initiates. You know, it's tragically, but we're alive. Most of us are safe and we're seeing this. And when you see it, you become a believer. It's not an abstract thing anymore. And now there are literally tens of thousands, honestly, hundreds of thousands of Canadians now who've been through this just this summer. And that's going to change the culture, and it has to.

SB: It's really good to get that perspective from you this morning. Thank you so much for your time, John.

JOHN VAILLANT: Well, thanks for covering the issue, Susan.

SB: John Vaillant is a journalist and the author of “Fire Weather”. We reached him in Vancouver.

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RPT ED YONG

SB: I'm Susan Bonner and you are listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

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FEMALE SPEAKER: In 1905, the National Audubon Society was founded, an environmental non-profit dedicated to conserving birds and their habitats. And of course, our society is named in honour of the one and only John James Audubon, an ornithologist and naturalist who painted and catalogued the birds of North America in the 19th century.

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SB: That's from the Audubon Society, highlighting their good works on behalf of the birds. However, the group’s namesake, John James Audubon, has a dark past that's coming to light, and his story is not the only one. It's part of a larger reckoning for ornithologists coming to grips with the uncomfortable history of the names that have been given to birds. Ed Yong is a science writer for The Atlantic magazine and the author of an article with the headline, The Fight Over Animal Names has Reached a New Extreme. Matt Galloway spoke with him in June. Here's that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Tell us a bit about John James Audubon. How important was he and is he to birding?

ED YONG: Yeah. I mean, he's a very, very renowned figure. It's not for nothing that his name graces the National Audubon Society. You know, it's almost synonymous with birds in America in painting these beautiful images of birds, of North American birds. You know, he contributed a lot to the nation's appreciation of its avian fauna. But his reputation, you know, once sterling, has taken a huge hit in the last decade or so for many reasons. There are scientific problems. So he is being accused of scientific fraud, of wholesale making up a species of birds that doesn't actually exist and that contributed to his rise to fame. He's responsible for pushing out certain myths about birds like the ideas that they can't smell, which is not true, and withstood the test of time for a long time because of Audubon's terrible experiments. And mostly, he was also kind of a terrible human. He dug up the graves of many Native American people, stole their skulls and sent them to a physician named Samuel Morton, who used those skulls in studies aiming to prove that Caucasians were intellectually superior than other peoples. Morton's work was the foundation of the scientific racism movement, and Audubon helped him in performing that work through these grisly acts of body snatching. Those remains still have not been repatriated. And then, you know, more than that, Audubon was a slaver. He very much profited off the suffering and enslavement of other people. It's not just then the society that has to deal with the fact that their named after a slaver, a grave robber, a fraud, it's also the fact that several birds are named after Audubon. You know, there is an Audubon's Oriole, for example, and that's part of this reckoning. Is it right that these incredible creatures should bear the names of people who have committed atrocities? Is it right that those people should continue to be honoured in this way and can we do something about that?

MG: What has been the response of the Audubon Societies to these revelations? Again, those societies have done really good work in terms of protecting habitat and enhancing knowledge and appreciation around different species of birds. How have they responded?

ED YONG: In varied ways. Several local chapters have changed their names. The National Society has not done that. Their board of directors just in March voted to keep their name on the grounds that it would, quote, allow the organization to direct resources and focus towards enacting the organization's mission. This debate is not about the quality of the work that the various Audubon related organizations have done. It is a question of whether they should continue using the name of a person who committed really horrible acts in a way that I think sends a message to black birders, to indigenous birders, to many other communities that have been poorly represented in this space and stand to have more representation at this pivotal time. There are many, many people who have their names stamped onto birds, and there are many of them who also did horrible things. I am really interested in science as a social and political force. It is not this neutral endeavour that it is often painted to be. It is deeply enmeshed in who we are as people and the values that we have. And this is a case where those values have been imprinted upon the natural world for us all to sort of learn and memorize. And I think a lot of people are rightly asking, could it be another way?

MG: One of those people is the indigenous birder Stephen Hampton. You start the piece talking about him and about the Scots Oriel, which is, again, one of those birds that, you know, you see in a field guide. Tell me a little bit about who Steven Hampton is and what he learned about the Scots Oriel.

ED YONG: Right. So Stephen Hampton is an indigenous birder. He's a citizen of the Cherokee Nation and he has been birding for over 50 years. For the longest time, Scotts Oriel was just a birding’s bird, like its beautiful black and yellow bird. But what Hampton learned was that the Oriole is named after a man named Winfield Scott, who was a general in the 19th century. And he led this campaign to dispossess the Cherokee people of their lands, this campaign of ethnic cleansing that removed them from their homelands, often with fatal results. So Scots soldiers rounded the Cherokee, looted their homes, separated their families, and a lot of them ended up travelling westward along what was then known as the Trail of Tears. And this is a very personal story for Hampton because dozens of his ancestors, including his great great grandfather, travelled along the Trail of Tears. They were among the people who were pushed out of their homes by Scott and his soldiers. And it was one of those soldiers who named the Oriole after Scott in 1854. So, you know, here is a man with really no connection to birds at all. He's not a scientist, he’s not a bird lover. He's a military commander who oversaw the dispossession and ethnic cleansing of Steve Hampton's people. And so this is very personal for him. And I wanted to start the story with that anecdote because I think it says something powerful. There's often this feeling, I think, among critics of this movement that who cares? You know, it's just a bunch of names. It doesn't really harm anyone. But try telling that to someone who can trace, you know, the calamity that befell his specific ancestors, like his actual family, to the actions of a man whose name now graces one of the birds that he loves and wants to see. That is, again, you know, one example, but I think you could make very similar links across the worlds. There are lots of animals and plants that bear the names of people who owned slaves, who killed indigenous people, who colonized lands belonging to indigenous people on behalf of Western nations. And I will remind everyone that these are animals that Native Americans have known for a very long time and had their own names for, and those names were displaced by a wave of name eponyms given by people of European descent.

MG: The pushback to this, I mean, one of the things you've heard, as you said, is that people say you're erasing history if you do this. But the other pushback is that if you change the names of birds, that it creates confusion, that people will have to relearn these names and it will require further efforts that perhaps people don't want to expend. Tell me more about how you understand those arguments against changing the names of birds that would be named after slave traders or racists or colonizers.

ED YONG: I think there's two things to talk about here, because animals have two kinds of names. They have common names, but they have scientific names. The common names, yes, people often say if you change the names, you know, your fields guides are going to have to change, people will have to relearn a ton of names, it won't be clear whether you are talking about the same animal. And I think that's a very weak argument. I sympathize with it a lot, but it is certainly the case that names do change all the time. You know, the American Ornithological Society has changed 100 plus names in the last century, often for reasons like wanting to get consistency between different sides of the Atlantic, animals might be reclassified. Names change and a lot of people who are used to these animals are used to the names changing. I think a lot of the birders who are part of this debate see it as actually a wonderful opportunity. Here you have a moment where whether you're a veteran birder like Steve Hampton who's been doing it for all their life, or you are someone like me who has actually just bought a pair of binoculars a few weeks ago and started to get into this pastime, you’re on the same playing field, right? Now, you all have a bunch of new things to learn, and you can learn from each other in this very community minded kind of way. A man named David Allen Sibley I think puts this very well.

MG: Legendary birder and creator of field guides and more.

ED YONG: Right. The Sibley Guide to Birds. I have it. Most of the people listening to this who are birders probably have it. David Allen Sibley, on a call from the American Ornithological Society, said that this is a choice. But also, he said that this is a debate between stability and respect, respect for people whose ancestors were harmed by the actions of early ornithologists or the societies those ornithologists were part of and benefited from. And then a choice between stability and respect simply said, I've come down on the side of respect, and I think that's the right call. Now, scientific names are a little different. Scientific names are harder to change because there, stability really does matter. They are meant to allow for unambiguous communication across scientists so that every animal has one unique name and only one name. And if you use that name, you are absolutely sure that you are all talking about the same thing. Changing that requires going to this body called the ICZN, the International Committee for Zoological Nomenclature, and there's a whole process to go through. It's a very difficult process. No names have been changed on ethical grounds, even though, for example, there is a beetle named after Hitler. This is a very clear example, right? If you want to change a name, don't start talking about like changing hundreds of names. Why not just change this one name? And the reason why that hasn't happened, according to the ICZN president, is there's a few reasons. One is just it is not in their mandate. It's a bureaucratic reason. Like the ICZN follows a very specific code of how scientific names should be regulated. There is no provision in that code for changing names based on ethical grounds. Getting a process involves many layers of bureaucracy. They are a bunch of 26 scientists who are all volunteering in their spare time. They don't have the person power for this. I kind of get it, especially if we're talking about changing like hundreds of thousands of names, right? Like maybe 20% of all the scientific names or records are eponyms. It's a lot of work for 26 people who frankly have other things to do. So we're really starting to get into like pretty deep, you know, my hands are tied because of bureaucracy grounds. And that feels like not the strongest argument, especially since even scientific names do actually change. They can change for reasons of grammar. They can change when species are reclassified. There is precedent for changing it. What matters then is which arguments you think are strong enough to warrant a change. And my view is if you think making like the Latin grammatically accurate is a strong enough reason, then grappling with science's dark legacy is a much, much better one.

MG: It is such a pleasure to talk to you about this. The story is fascinating, but it speaks to, in many ways, issues of our time that go well beyond how we name birds and how we think about birds. Ed Yong, thank you very much.

ED YONG: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

SB: Ed Yong is a science writer for The Atlantic. Matt Galloway spoke with him in June. Coming up after your regional update, we continue our presentation of the CBC podcast, The Outlaw Ocean. Today's episode looks at the cruise ship industry. I'm Susan Bonner and you're listening to The Current.

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THE OUTLAW OCEAN EPISODE 6

SB: Hello, I'm Susan Bonner and you are listening to The Current. This summer, we're bringing you some of the best CBC podcasts. Today, we continue The Outlaw Ocean with host Ian Urbina. Here's episode 6.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/the-outlaw-ocean-episode-6-transcript-1.6727327

SB: We'll hear the next episode of The Outlaw Ocean tomorrow. You can find this series and many more CBC podcasts on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. I'm Susan Bonner. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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