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The Current Transcript for July 24, 2023

Host: Kathleen Goldhar

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE 1: This job is very, very demanding. It's very stressful and it's very dangerous.

VOICE 2: We experienced what we usually experience in the year, in two months already.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: In the best of times, being a firefighter is a hard, dangerous job. But during this country's worst wildfire season to date, it's something else entirely. Three people have already died fighting fires this season. And as heat waves and dry conditions continue across the country, the pressure on first responders isn't cooling. And then.

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In those areas that got hit, there's a huge amount of standing water that's dangerous. There's a lot of damage done to our folks out today as they were yesterday, trying to fix those things which are most urgent. But, you know, we're going to have to be patient.

KG: Halifax Mayor Mike Savage on the devastating floods that hit Nova Scotia over the weekend. In 30 minutes, we get the latest on the record rainfall and the clean up ahead. Also, we revisit Matt Galloway's conversation with chef Riccardo Larrivee. After 21 seasons and almost 3000 episodes. Riccardo has left the TV kitchen. Plus the first episode of the CBC podcast, The No Good, Terribly kind, Wonderful lives and Tragic Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman. But we begin on the frontlines of the wildfires and the people trying to tame them. I'm Kathleen Goldhar, sitting in for Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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Firefighters killed in action

Guests: Taylor Dalzell, Tayler Hubbs

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There's no question. Devyn deserving more deserving better. And there's no question Adam Yeadon deserving more or better. And maybe this is the call to action that we need to finally ask ourselves, we're fine with every summer, having record breaking numbers of fires and record breaking temps and record breaking natural disasters. Maybe this is what we needed to question whether we want firefighters like my 19 year old sister being the hottest commodity in the country for four months straight every year.

KG: Kaylin Gale, speaking at her sister, Devyn Gale's memorial in Revelstoke, B.C. over the weekend. It's been a deadly month for firefighters across the country. 19 year old Devin was killed by a falling tree in southeast B.C.. 25 year old Adam Yeadon died battling a fire near Fort Liard in the Northwest Territories. And a 41 year old man from Whitecourt, Alberta, died after his helicopter crashed trying to deliver water. These deaths come as the country faces the worst wildfire season on record with no end in sight. Taylor Dalzell is a wildland firefighter and crew leader in Ontario. He's been doing it for eight seasons. Taylor, good morning.

TAYLOR DALZELL: Good morning. And thank you so much for having me here.

KG: Thanks for joining us. So how are those in the firefighting community handling the news of these deaths?

TAYLOR DALZELL: I mean, obviously, even though we are not in B.C., we are not in the Territories and we're not in Alberta. We're in Ontario. It's still something that still affects us because even though it's across the country, there still are brothers and sisters who fight fire with us.

KG: And being that you're in northern Ontario, how would you describe the fires that you're seeing this summer.

TAYLOR DALZELL: Particularly for this summer, just because it's hot all over the entire country. The fires we're seeing in Ontario, they're very large. They're getting larger and some of them are quite intense. I know specifically for Ontario, we are short crews this fire season. We're not up to our full complement of crews, so it can be quite difficult fighting some of those fires.

KG: Have you ever felt like safe or feared for your life?

TAYLOR DALZELL: Oh, definitely. Upon a couple of occasions, not necessarily due to the flames from the fire itself, but I know from falling trees, particularly one incident about four years ago, the winds picked up and we had a bunch of trees coming down in the middle of the night shaking the ground. And we were in our tents, was quite fearful at that time. Another moment this year, we had a bears come into our camp and try to rip apart some of our tents. So you have to stay up throughout the entire night fending off the bear. So just for those two reasons alone, I've definitely had a couple of experiences where things can get quite intense.

KG: And your crew leader, what kind of challenges do you see specifically as the leader?

TAYLOR DALZELL: So the crew leader, I find you have to watch everybody else underneath you. I'm responsible for everybody on my crew. And as we go into these dangerous situations, whether that be in the remote wilderness of Ontario fighting fires, it's it's quite natural on somebody's mental stability just because sometimes when you're when you're out there in the fire, especially if you're camping close to a fire and you can hear the fire going throughout the entire night, I'm sometimes lying awake in my tent at night quite anxious, wondering what can I do to make sure everybody around me is also safe.

KG: What do you do to get but you have some kind of coping mechanism, mechanisms. How do you deal with that kind of anxiety and then that kind of like physical and emotional pressure all day long?

TAYLOR DALZELL: I think as I got more and more experienced in my job, I'm able to just deal with that internally. I know when I first became a true leader, you have somebody on your crew who's second in command and they are called a senior crew member, and I would talk to that senior crew member just because he also had quite a number of years experience. And we just go through all of our actions of the day and we make sure that when you're an after action review that we are doing everything that we can and we're doing it in the most safe way, in the most tactful way when we're fighting these fires. So that way we can have self assurance that we are doing the right thing at that moment.

KG: I've heard also that you guys are dealing with some serious staffing challenges this season.

TAYLOR DALZELL: Yes, we are. We are for right now, for the forest rangers within L.A. we are having quite the retention crisis right now. And it's unfortunate. Out of our 190 crews, we are short, I think, 48 or 49 this season.

KG: And what does that mean on the ground? Like I heard you guys there was recently, you guys were fighting a 2000 hectare fire. What does that mean for the teams on the ground? What does that look like?

TAYLOR DALZELL: So for the teams on the ground within Ontario, that means we don't have as much resources to draw from when we're fighting certain fires. I know it can be taxing on the crews because we are going to be spread that much more thin because we can't get those resources. I know in past years as well, if we were short, crews would be able to supplement whatever resources we lacked by ordering crews from Alberta, B.C., Manitoba, Saskatchewan, even from the States. However, because the season is so chaotic everywhere within Canada right now, we have we can no longer grab just from anywhere of these other provinces. I know luckily we were able to get some crews in from Mexico. However, there was only a limited number of crews because I think a majority of the Mexican crews went to B.C. in Alberta. So we're definitely trying to figure out ways to be a little bit more. Tactful when using all of our resources.

KG: So does that mean you have to sort of let some fires go? Or does that how does that affect the way you can actually fight? Does it make it more dangerous?

TAYLOR DALZELL: Definitely. For some of our fires, the we have something called being observed, which means that we'll let a fire burn if there's no values around it to its natural boundaries throughout the entire season. So we definitely have some of these fires growing and growing and growing. I also know for a couple of our other fires where we are throwing crews on them, some of them we only have to attack certain parts of the fire because we can't afford to try to attack the entire fire just because they are so large.

KG: Okay, Taylor, let me just ask you to hold on for a second because I'm going to bring somebody else into this conversation. Tayler Hubbs is a firefighting student at Lakeland College in Vermilion, Alberta. Hi, Tayler.

TAYLER HUBBS: Hi.

KG: Good morning. Morning. So you've actually had the opportunity to see some of these wildfires in Alberta up close with your classmates. Tell us what that training experience was like on the front lines.

TAYLER HUBBS: Honestly, it was something quick that we had to go through as we had just finished writing our exam that Friday and our dean had come up to us and asked us if this was something we would be interested in and going to help the Parkland County. For most of us, it was a no brainer. We all our hands went up wanting to go. But on the drive there, we weren't really sure what to expect. And for me, that's when the nerves really set in as to what were my tasks going to be? What are the goals? But they were very understanding as we were just students. So I never really felt that we were ever in any danger. They put us in compromising scenarios, but it was definitely an eye opening experience.

KG: And you're 26, and sadly, two of the recent firefighters who died were quite close to your age. How are you processing all of this happening this season?

TAYLER HUBBS: I mean, hearing about these deaths are extremely devastating. And you really keep a special place in your heart for these individuals who lost their lives on the job. It's a risky career choice, and no one really anticipates that a tragedy like this will happen to someone they love. But it kind of gives you that determination about what you're fighting for and how badly you want to protect yourself. These communities and especially your team-mates.

KG: Have these risks that you're realising are maybe higher than you expected changed your perception of the job.

TAYLER HUBBS: I'm not sure if it really changed my perception. I think it opens your eyes to how risky this job can be. That's a really good question.

KG: Sorry to put it in your mind.

TAYLER HUBBS: No it's ok, it's a conversations we have at school, too, about how safe you really have to be. But I mean, it's not something that everyone's expecting every day.

KG: How are the students talking and managing the deaths that you're hearing about?

TAYLER HUBBS: We talk about how losing someone within this industry feels like you're losing a family member. You'd rather die for your team-mates. So it's extremely tragic to see something like this happen to these individuals.

KG: And Taylor Dalzell, let me ask you this. Like, what advice would you give to the other Tayler, who's just embarking on her career as a firefighter?

TAYLOR DALZELL: I think one piece of advice I would give to her is, you know, as you start off your career and you're going through things in terms of safety, don't get complacent with it. I mean, as we were just kind of talking about right now, unfortunately, you know, we have lost three people involved in wildland firefighting in the last week. And it's you're right. It's it's sad and it's tragic. And these hopefully we can learn from these as a community. And as you move forward with your career, just always look out for those around you, not just yourself.

KG: And Taylor Dalzell, you've been at this much longer than Tayler Hubbs. How long do you see yourself doing this for?

TAYLOR DALZELL: Hopefully, I would like to make a career out of this. I know my dad was a volunteer firefighter on a volunteer fire department for 30 years, and I would love to also try to carry on the tradition with wildland firefighting and hopefully I can do this til I retire.

KG: And Taylor Hobbs, I hear your goal is to work in a city like Saskatoon. But if you are asked to fight wildfires after you graduate, would you?

TAYLER HUBBS: Absolutely I would. It's just that major aspect of serving your community and even back home. That's something that's piqued my interest as well.

KG: And Taylor, to that. How long does it take to get a crew up to speed that where you feel like the experience and the training? Is there enough for you to feel like you can really fight these fires?

TAYLOR DALZELL: I think it really depends on how much experience that person gets within a wildland fire fighting season just because it is a limited window about six months. And as good as all hands on training is, it's nothing compared to the experience you get when you're actually on a fire. So for most people, if we do have a busy season, obviously to completely get proficient at their job, probably one if they have a busy season, but most likely two seasons for most.

KG: Okay, Well, both of you, thank you for your work and good luck with the season.

TAYLOR DALZELL: Thank you so much for having us.

TAYLER HUBBS: Thank you.

KG: Taylor Dalzell well is a wildland firefighter, and we've reached him in Pickle Lake Ontario. And Tayler Hubbs is a firefighting student at Lakeland College, and we reached her in Vermilion, Alberta. Joshua Johnston has been listening in and he's a forest fire research scientist with the Canadian Forest Service and is leading the team developing Canada's first wildfire satellite program. He's also a former firefighter himself. Hello, Joshua.

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: High Kathleen. How are you doing?

KG: I'm pretty good. And I'm curious with you listening in to the two Taylor's processing. How are you processing and thinking about the three deaths that you've already heard about this year in Canada?

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: Well, to be blunt with you, I yeah, I was completely lost in that conversation you were just having going down memory lane. But as far as the deaths are concerned, that it weighs heavy weights, heavy on everyone. Takes you back to memories you don't want to have. And it also reminds me that we're we're nowhere near the end of the season. You know, really, we're kind of getting to the beginning of the meat of peak season and people are tired. So I think Taylor's words are well-taken. You know, it's never get complacent and just keep your wits about you as we go forward. But certainly my heart's with all the families and everyone who knows them and the whole community.

KG: Well, I'm sure they are encouraged by the work that you guys are doing to make things better in the future. So the satellite system that you're working on is due to be in place by 2029. Can you explain how it's going to work?

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: Yeah. So we're very privileged that we get to do this as the Canadian government to be the first country to put a dedicated satellite for the purpose of fire monitoring. Basically, the idea behind it is to provide surveillance of of all the large fires in the country and make sure that people are always aware of what they're doing, where they are, how fast they're moving, which direction they're headed and the intensity, the smoke production, all that kind of stuff. But, you know, Taylor from Pickle Lake was was just talking about Bob fires being observed once. It's really intense to look at those large fires and keep track of them so that decision makers know what's up when they make a call.

KG: We use a satellite system now, correct?

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: We use all kinds of satellite right now. Yes.

KG: And how effective are they?

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: They're effective in that. You can see fires from them. And we can do an awful lot of really interesting science from them. But there's certain things about them where they're they're just they're not built for this explicit purpose. And and as a result, there's a lot of science we can do, but there's not as much sort of operational support that we can deliver, although we know it's possible. You've really got to build it for purpose.

KG: 2029 is a long way off. So what should we be doing and thinking about mitigation like now?

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: Yeah, it is a long ways off, although it feels very close if you're leading a mission, I got to tell you that. I'm sure in the meantime, you know this the sort of situation that we're seeing this year, this type of fire season, I hate to be the one to say it, but it's going to become more and more common as we move towards 2029. And I think it's really important that as we as we approach everyone who's involved in this, in this whole community of fire management, needs to be really looking to all the emerging tools, not just satellite stuff, but decision support systems and, you know, models that we have to to predict, you know, fire occurrence and, you know, improvements in fire behaviour as well as fire growth modelling, all kinds of interesting sort of modelling outputs that come from the researchers. And the more that you learn about them and the more you try and figure out how to incorporate them into your, into your operations, you're implicitly beginning to really understand how to interpret that type of information. And that's actually going to get you ready for using the type of stuff that will come out of the satellite. And it'll also, in the interim give you an awful lot of, I'd say, a surrogate for experience in certain places. You know, we're under a lot of strain. There's a lot of difficult decisions. The system is being stretched, but it's certainly not breaking, but giving people a chance to interpret that kind of information and start playing with it and operations, that's really the best way to prepare for things that are coming on the horizon.

KG: Interesting. I never thought about fire having a predictable behaviour. Can you tell me a little bit about how fires behave?

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: Yeah, well, I. I can. I could give you all kinds of stories about how fires behave, but the truth is, yes, it is predictable. You know, sometimes when we see things and they, you know, something crazy happens that people like to say, Oh, we could never have predicted that. But the truth is, one or two of the models probably did predicted we we look at fires basically respond to changes in their environment. If the if the wind speed changes the wind direction changes, the fire speed and the fire's direction will change. But it also is reacting to changes in the fuel as the forest changes, whether it's drying out over a long period of time or where a fire moseying down the landscape hits a different type of forest. It will respond to that. It will change dramatically. And then the most importantly in some places is topography, especially in B.C.. You know, if you think about, you know, in order for a fire to move forward, it has to preheat everything in front of it has to dry out the fuels ahead of it before they burst into flames. Well, your smoke column is a really powerful tool for doing that. And if you're in the mountains, that Smoke column is making contact with a lot more of the trees ahead of the fire. And so fires will run up mountain slopes in ways that they'll never do on flat ground. And then conversely, they behave really weird when they're going downhill. Right. Is the smoke column going away from it? So these you know, it's not it's not necessarily simple, but when you really look at how fires behave and how the physics of combustion behaves, it actually is predictable. And we actually Canada is well known globally as one of the world leaders in and fire fire behaviour modelling.

KG: Just briefly tell us, how do you think we're going to look back in five years at this year's fire season?

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: Well, I am a little bit concerned that we're going to look back at this year and see it as the the beginning of of the new normal. To be perfectly honest with you, I mean, don't get me wrong, next year it could rain the whole year and we could have a well-needed rest. But the truth be told, that, you know, within a ten year time horizon, this could be, you know, closer to an average season.

KG: Joshua Johnson Let's hope for the rain next year. And I thank you for your time.

JOSHUA JOHNSTON: Thank you. Have a good.

KG: Day. You too. Joshua Johnston is a forest fire research scientist at the Canadian Forest Service, and he's leading a team developing Canada's wildfire satellite program. The CBC News is next. And then from fires to floods.

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I was standing in the middle of my driveway, up to my knees in water. Our basement is fully flooded. Our neighbours are flooded out. The fire department showed up and told us that we had about 10 minutes to get what we needed together.

KG: We get the latest from Halifax after the news. I'm Kathleen Goldhar and you're listening to The Current.

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Record rainfall floods Nova Scotia; chef Ricardo Larrivée bids adieu to TV

Guests: Ryan Snodden, Ricardo Larrivee

KG: I'm Kathleen Goldhar and you're listening to The Current.

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The only option was for us to go because the road washing away was going to end up making it impassable. And they were concerned that with that rain that was coming to last night, that we would end up even higher up with water, because right now we are basement we and there's one step left. It's been a tough couple months. As the new normal, I guess.

KG: Melanie McWhirter is one of hundreds of people forced to evacuate their homes in Nova Scotia. A state of emergency continues in the province after a weekend of intense flooding. Last night, Nova Scotia's request for federal assistance was approved. Ryan Snodden is CBC's media meteorologist in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and he joins us from Halifax. Good morning, Ryan.

RYAN SNODDEN: Good morning.

KG: So quickly, what's the situation like there this morning?

RYAN SNODDEN: Well, the situation is a clean up one. The sun is shining, which is good. But, yeah, crews have a, you know, long, long task ahead of them of just repairing roads and obviously still assessing some of those country roads and back roads that were impacted, that have been compromised, that maybe look okay to look at from the eye. But the water, you know, running along the sides of the roads has, you know, eroded the soil from underneath. And so it looks good at a distance, but is actually compromised. Those are the types of things that officials are trying to assess here still this morning.

KG: So I'm assuming you've been working all weekend and you've seen a lot of weather events, but can you give me an idea of something that might have surprised you that you saw this weekend?

RYAN SNODDEN: Well, I think the amount of rain in such a short period of time did surprise even forecasters. We have seen this setup countless times before. Tropical moisture streaming in from the south. This was going to be a heavy rain event. There were rainfall warnings in effect. But all of the forecast model guidance that we were looking at was topping out in the 100 to 150 millimetre range locally. That's a setup that we've seen before that, you know, may cause some localised flooding, but something we can handle and have handled before what happened Friday afternoon into Friday night was these thunderstorms started tracking through and started training, which means one thunderstorm starts to dissipate, it feeds the next, it feeds the next and so on and so on. And so the same areas get hit over and over and over again. And that front was kind of stalled. And so we really saw the same area about a 50 kilometre wide path that was hit over and over again by these training thunderstorms. And that's why we had, you know, 200 to 250 millimetres or more in some areas in six, 10 to 12 hours.

KG: It sounds terrifying.

RYAN SNODDEN: It really was. I mean, I drove from the CBC, which is in Halifax to my home in Bedford after the supper hour news. And that drive, even that short trip, was one that I will never forget. You know, water coming across the roads, debris, rocks, you know, washouts, even at that point. And the rain was really coming down heavily at that time. So it it was scary and obviously an even scarier situation for for some folks.

KG: Yeah. I mean, and tragically, four people are missing after their vehicles were submerged by the floodwater, including two children. Do we know anything about where things are at with that search?

RYAN SNODDEN: Just that it continues this morning. Officials are being pretty tight lipped because to you know, for the sake of the families and obviously that situation, we do know that the search continues this morning. But that's that's about all we know at this point.

KG: What are those search crews up against?

RYAN SNODDEN: Well, they're up against high water levels in many areas from it's going to take time. We had already had a really wet June and July. So the water levels, the water table was already really high before these storms hit. So the rivers, the lakes, the streams were already high. Then you add in all of this water, three months worth of rain, basically in the hardest hit areas, on top of an already saturated soil. Basically, that water had nowhere to go except expand. And so, yeah, officials are dealing with very high water levels in some of these search areas. So that's that's I think really and obviously washouts and and and and compromised areas where things have been washed out and destroyed by the water. So that's really, I think, their biggest task that they're up against right now.

KG: Have you got any sense of how long it's going to actually take to get things somewhat back to normal in terms of the water level?

RYAN SNODDEN: Well, I do know that in some areas the water is gone and what is left is the destruction. But in. Areas close to where I live here in Bedford, the Sackville River, which flows through and did so much damage, it has receded. Back off to a little bit off the Bedford Highway, which is still closed because they want to make sure it's safe before they allow vehicles to pass through on the road. Aren't huge craters aren't just going to open up? But, you know, that river is still very swollen. The shubenacadie is still obviously very high. So it's going to take time. As I said, we were already running above normal in terms of rainfall. So it's going to take days before the rivers get back to anywhere close to normal.

KG: And what about people getting back into their houses? Do you have are they being given any kind of timeline?

RYAN SNODDEN: I think it really depends on, you know, where they're located. Some neighbourhoods were hit worse than others. I heard I've heard from folks in my neighbourhood. My basement was thankfully dry just up the road. My neighbour had had water in his basement, a couple of neighbourhoods over a couple of feet of water in basements. So I think it really depends on where the folks are located, in which neighbourhoods, how badly they were hit. It's and again we're talking about an area that stretches all the way from Queens County, the south shore of Nova Scotia, up through Lunenburg into northwest Halifax and then up towards Windsor Enhanced County. So a narrow path 50 kilometres wide, as I said, but a long one over 100 kilometres long.

KG: Incredible. And Nova Scotia's premier, Tim Houston's request for disaster assistance from the Federal Government has been approved. What will that cover?

RYAN SNODDEN: That's a good question and I think the officials are still working that out. Obviously, what we're hoping for with the provinces hoping for is to speed up the process here. Obviously, I know a lot of the the provincial the roads that have been damaged are provincial roads. So obviously they're looking for some assistance there. And just to try to speed up the process, because, of course, after Fiona last year, the wildfires just a couple of months ago and now this, folks are reeling. And we we obviously don't want this cleanup to to to last any longer than it has to.

KG: Yeah, it feels like this this area is just being hit after hit after hit. How are people coping with like another disaster or even emotionally? How how are people waking up to this after what happened on Friday?

RYAN SNODDEN: I think it's safe to say folks are in shock. I mean, the you know, the Fiona damage was more confined over eastern Nova Scotia. Cape Breton was so hard hit. And the Northumberland shore region. This the wildfires, of course were were down in Shelburne County which is in the southwest. Sounds like that area wasn't too much impacted from this flooding rain but I think about the poor folks in Tantallon operated Tallen Hammonds Plains area. Some of those folks have, you know, made claims to their insurance company for fire damage just a few months ago and now are making calls with flood damage in their basements. So I can't imagine having to to deal with, you know, one extreme to the other in just two months in the very same neighbourhoods. And some folks are doing just that this morning. And I think as the province as a whole, we're just kind of in shock that in a calendar year we've had three huge natural disasters now.

KG: It's really something. Well, Ryan, thank you. I really appreciate the time that you're giving us this morning.

RYAN SNODDEN: My pleasure. Thank you.

KG: Ryan Snodden is the BBC's meteorologist in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and we reached him in Halifax.

[Music]

KG: I'm Kathleen Goldhar and you're listening to The Current. After 21 seasons and almost 3000 episodes, Riccardo has left the kitchen. Well, the TV kitchen, at least. The chef has often been called the Martha Stewart of French Canada. Over the past 20 years, he's built a food empire with cookbooks, magazines, cooking shows in English and in French, and a YouTube channel where he teaches the basics. In April, Ricardo bid adieu to his TV audience and thanked them for coming along for the ride.

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[French speech]

KG: Ricardo Larrivee, who has always been simply known as Riccardo, filmed that episode in his kitchen studio in say, Libre, Quebec. Matt Galloway spoke to him after his announcement in April. Here's that conversation.

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MG: Ricardo, good morning.

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What's it like to hear that? You sounded really emotional.

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Oh, well, you know, as I said, it's 20, 21 years being there daily. Of course, as anyone in the country, you live some great moments and some moments of despair. I remember my wife having cancer and my mother being in the living room, changing diapers and giving her medication between segments of the show. But at the same time, food always brings me back to the basics, eating together, being together. And that was my goal 30 years ago where I was dreaming to be a part of that life where I could teach cooking throughout the country through TV, radio or any platform. And I'm lucky I did that.

MG: Did you grow up in a house where people cooked all the time? What was that like? What was the kitchen in the house that you grew up like?

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Yeah. I'd say a very traditional family where I'm the first generation not being 15 in the house. My father, there were 19 living close to the Maritimes, and so there was always big parties. There was always a lot of uncles and aunts and meals and yeah, big memories about that. But at the same time, my father had an alcohol problem. And so I found refuge in trying to cook. So, you know, some kids are very good at sports or music or anything else. Me, it was food. At four or five, I was always trying to create recipes, make my parents happy, trying to find some sort of a recognition from them. And to me, it was food.

MG: I was going to say, what did it give you in those difficult times to be able to create something from scratch?

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: It gave me something I decided very long ago I was going to try to achieve throughout the country with all the kids I was talking to. It’s self-esteem, trying to show that you are good in something. And it could be as simple as peeling a tomato or just making a soup for yourself. And some people said, aren't you tired of doing the same thing every day for over a decade or over a generation? I said, no, because every day I remember that I'm lucky to live in this country, to be healthy, to have good friends and to be able to share a passion that defines who we are throughout the country. I always say I try to propose a vision of food where it brings people together and where you're from, what's your language, what your political or religion is not important. When you eat with people, you realize that you're the same. You're aiming for happiness, for respect, to be recognized. And you can be six or 76, it's the same goal you want to achieve or you're dreaming of. And this is what I did every day and I will continue to do for as long as I can be healthy and with energy.

MG: Why do you think your show, and it's not just the show, but all the other work that you've done, why do you think it became so big in Quebec in particular?

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: I think that there's a lot of people that are lonely also, and they were watching my show a bit like you're tuning your radio and you have a voice you know, you find that person funny and entertaining and of course, you learn things at the same time. So every day when I was like waking up, and I've raised my kids through this, I mean, sometimes I mean, they were like any other kids. I have three daughters and they didn't want to talk to me because they were mad I forced them to do their homework. And they were having breakfast with the crew instead of our family because the house was large enough to have kind of a private section and the place we were taping and all that. But I had the same crew for 21 years. So my oldest is 25. They don't remember not seeing these cameramen and women and people there. And so because of that, I'd say relationship between my team, the kids and the public, it became one big thing where people were never hustling me. When I'm at the grocery store, they talk to me and they come to me as I'm their friend, their cousin, their husband. It's really like it's a very, I'd say, comforting relationship that I've created over the years.

MG: I was going to say, I mean, you know, there's lots of publications and the magazine and the columns in English Canada, but it's a different thing in Quebec. You're a household name. You're a superstar in that province. I just wonder what that's like.

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Actually when you start, it's not like winning a big contest and all of a sudden you won The Voice and everyone knows you. I started from a dream of being on TV and radio. I've studied in Ottawa in broadcasting, and my first job was in Saskatchewan for CBC, and this is the first place where I realized that I was going to be a happy guy. So I think my happiness, I owe it to Saskatchewan because this is where I did my first radio gig on food, talking about food. This is where it was my first decision and everything. So each time I go back out west, like to me it's only Saskatchewan. And then you become something that other people in Quebec can say, hey, he said he wanted to be the first French Canadian to learn English and do it all across the country. He said he wanted to be kind of the Celine Dion of recipes. And then your team doesn't totally believe in this, but after 10 years of hustling them with this idea, they say, hey, when are we going? And I remember people around me saying, well, they won't like you. It's so different. I said, why? Why are you saying this? We’re watching food from all over the world. People love food that is different from what we are, why we need to work. And when I went and they realized that it was so simple and people were loving and caring everywhere, it gives them an extra chance to believe in the fact that it's true. If we reach out there and if we use our capacity of communicating, everything is possible. And so this is to me my biggest achievement because now people are extremely proud. And then I saw other chefs say, hey, I could be across the country. I could do this. I can get out if I want. I don't have to stay just here in Quebec. And I'm not saying this as something reduction for Quebec, but it's just like the world is vast. And I always said I don't care about not being a superstar around the world. I don't want to be Gordon Ramsay, but I want to be able to be home. Everywhere I want in my country.

MG: I mean, is that why you said that you wanted to be the Celine Dion of recipe?

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Yeah. That's what I said for years. And I'm lucky we sold the shows in over 150 countries, and we've published in French and English in Europe and in the States. And we did what we said we wanted to do. And I'm saying we because you never do this alone. My wife is the president of Riccardo Media. And so we were a team, a bit like René Joly and Celine. And when you’re two and you believe in yourselves, and I'm going back to this, food helps you believe in yourself. The first recipe, I’m always saying to the guys, hey, the first recipe you'll make to your girlfriends, just watch in her eyes how happy she will be, and that will give you this sense of pride. And if you're a kid and you bake something for your father and he says, hey, you did that to me, son? Yeah, I did. And you have this sense of all appreciation that I can do things that makes people happy because I have talents. And it's so important to prove to these kids across the country that they can be who they want. They can change. They can be better than us. They can change the world and make it their own. And food to me in schools, food around the table is so important. It's the first place you learn democracy. When you have a dinner with your family, you can test an idea. You can. And sometimes your mom or your dad says to your brother and sister, hey, just stop talking. Listen to your brother. He has something to say. And you learn to take your place and be proud of yourself. So when you’re back at school, you know your idea is good because you've been approved by your family. And it started around the table. And you're family is very specific. Maybe you're from wherever you want in the world and this is what you know. All of a sudden, you have friends in school. I remember my best friend is from Haiti. Their parents moved in the 70s. And I realize, gee, it's so different the way they eat and the language is not exactly the same. And all of a sudden, he’s doing the same thing. And so, okay, so my family is not the centre of the universe. So there's his too. And eventually, you get out of the province and the country, but it's all around food bringing you to other people. This is how I made so many friends across the country through food.

MG: Let me ask you just briefly about, you mentioned your wife. I spoke with you years and years ago.

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Yeah, I remember.

MG: I don't know that you remember because you talk to a lot of people, but that was when your wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. And you talked at that time about how I mean, obviously it changed your life. How do you look back on that now in terms of how it changed your outlook on life as somebody who was in this moment of being incredibly successful and then everything in your life seems to be hanging in the balance? How did that change your outlook on life?

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: I remember because my wife and I had the conversation at that time and we said, how are we going to talk about this in the media? And she said, you know what? It's my cancer. And I think you should talk about not my cancer, but how you as a man, a father lives through this, with this. And this is the option I took. And so it gave me a sense of responsibility I never had before because I taught like many others that I would be forever healthy with my wife and the kids. And all of a sudden, you know, and as a guy, you’re raised to think that you will have a girlfriend, you will get married, you’ll have children, you’ll have a good job, you'll buy a house. All of a sudden, all of this, you have this sense that it could be gone in a minute. What am I going to do with my three daughters if I'm alone? How am I going to teach them to be strong women? How am I? There was so many questions. And through this, again, food helped me. I remember the day, the first show I had to do on my own without her being in my vision, you know, because she was always there. And if I was insecure looking into her direction, she was giving me a thumbs up and I was going. And you have to rethink that, how fragile everything is, how, I'd say, moved I was not being able to protect as I was supposed to, as a husband, to be there for her good day, bad day. And it's moving. So I talked a lot about it, saying to other guys, you know what? Maybe we should learn to talk about how we feel being not always competent on protecting and helping and raising this family that you dreamt of.

MG: And she's better now and she's the boss of your company.

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Yes, but it went for 10 years. You know, she had to have a double mastectomy and all of this only three years ago, five years ago, just before pandemic. And it's always there. But it reminds us we're a very positive couple. We're married for 30 years and we say we have to take these little pieces of shit, I have to excuse the way I said it, and say, how can I make this into something good that could serve others? How can I make this pain and stress into something that could make others believe that they will go through it? And it's not going to be fun, but we'll be better. And we don't need that, but if it's there, we have to accept and make it something positive. And it made me a better father and a better dad, I think, because I'm more… When I cross someone in one of our restaurants or I'm taping something in the show wherever in the country and someone talks to me about a health issue or a kids problem, well, I'm way more receptive. I'm way more empathic because I lived through this. And it's when you have a kid and this kid has been sick, you know exactly how this other parents feel also. So I think it makes a nice community when you are able to talk about these things.

MG: We just have a couple of minutes left, so let me ask you just a couple of quick things. One is you've talked a lot about kids and you mentioned nutrition. You have been a real driver of creating something that we don't have in this country, a national school food program. Why is that important to you?

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: We are the only country in the G7 without a program. We're a shame. We’re the 30^th on position, 30^th country. We should be ashamed of that because we are a rich country. We have social values that are way deep rooted. And if I compare from the states, I lived a part in the States also, and I realize every day how great it is to be here because we care about others and we are happy to pay taxes if it helps and gives equality chances to everyone in the country. But we are lacking this. And if a kid can't eat enough and can’t have proper nutrition, how do you want this kid to be able to learn properly? And it's easy to say, well, it's the job of the parents. It's not true anymore. It was. It is. But a parent is a loving parent and he gives everything he can. So instead of being judgemental about what they should or shouldn't give, we should invest in this next generation saying we will feed you. And the beauty of it is if we add to this, you know, local agriculture, and if we add to this, not only I will feed you, I will teach you how to cook for yourself, how to be self-sufficient, and I will encourage you to buy local, you will make a difference into the local economy, but also tourists. When I fly from Montreal to Halifax or Toronto, I don't expect to eat the same thing. But if I want these kids to be the next generation that will make any place in the country different, well, it has to be done. And I think this is going to be my battle for the next 20 years I have healthy. And I’m always joking, but it's not that much of a joke. If ever I'm ending up Governor General of Canada, this is going to be my full time job. You know, just think of the kids and make sure they have a meal, a proper meal and then I'm going to enjoy it. And I'm always saying, well, if I need clothes or a good thing, I'll pay for myself.

MG: Future governor general, perhaps. I have to ask you just the final question. We have to go. But what's for dinner tonight?

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Well, tonight, because I'm doing a lot of interviews, the kids said, wow, it's going to be so good. Grandma is going to cook for us.

MG: [laughing] You’ll be replaced in the kitchen.

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Oh, it's funny because even when she cooks something that is my recipe, the kids always say, you know, dad, people love you, but grandma is better.

MG: The humility never hurt. Ricardo, it's a great pleasure to talk to you. You have entertained people across this country and beyond for a long time. And I wish you the best of health and perhaps we'll talk to you in Rido Hall if you become the governor general down the line.

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: I'll be happy to talk about this program we’ll do for kids across the country.

MG: Thanks again and good luck.

RICARDO LARRIVÉE: Thanks a lot.

KG: Ricardo Larrivee is a chef, cookbook author, and a former tv host. This conversation first aired in April with Matt Galloway. Coming up after your regional update.

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I've been there for years and years, and she was always concerned about lights and doors and all that being kept close and lights and doors were wide open and I just thought something was off.

KG: In 90 seconds, part one of the podcast The No Good, Terribly Kind, Wonderful Lives and Tragic Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman. Exploring one of the biggest -- and perhaps most mysterious-- homicide investigations in Canadian history. I'm Kathleen Goldhar and you're listening to The Current.

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A CBC podcast investigates the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman - Ep.1

KG: I'm Kathleen Goldhar and you're listening to The Current. Throughout the summer, we're bringing you some of the CBC's best podcasts. This week, a podcast I worked on with CBC, exploring the mystery and myth surrounding the deaths of a high-profile Toronto couple. This is episode one of The No Good, Terribly Kind, Wonderful Lives and Tragic Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman

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LEO SEWELL: I have lots of stashes I have drawers with, well, these are corn holders. Also reading glasses in the drawer. These are hot wheel cars and these are Fisher-Price people. Wooden spacers.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I'm in Leo Sewell's studio in Philadelphia.

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LEO SEWELL: Stopwatches, or pocket watches.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Leo calls himself a junk sculptor.

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LEO SEWELL: And these are watch bands. I don't know what's next.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And he makes recycled art.

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LEO SEWELL: Oh, keys. I've been doing things with keys. And these are lenses. It goes on and on.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Leo spends his days collecting what other people get rid of. And whatever he finds, he stores here in his immaculately organized workshop. In his studio on this day, there's a six foot tall liberty bell, the Greek goddess Diana the huntress, a pig and a duck.

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LEO SEWELL: Life size flamingo out of basically, brass.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I love the feet.

LEO SEWELL: Yeah, they're glowy, aren't they?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: They're really beautiful.

LEO SEWELL: That flatware has got a finish.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: We're here to talk about one of his sculptures, one he made a few decades ago. We show him a photo of it on our laptop. It's life size of a man in a woman sitting together. He asks us to enlarge it and leans in.

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LEO SEWELL: This is a couple that I feel quite sure that I made in the seventies, and, well, they look like they're within a foot of one another and he's appropriately little taller than she is, and I don't know if they look so sphinx-like. One leg is crossed over the other at the knee. And in her case, one knee's on top the other. So both legs are crossed and his arms, his left arm is on his left knee and his right arm is on his right thigh. And her arms, I believe, come together at the knee.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: This sculpture connects Leo in the most macabre way to the story that we're about to tell you. One that is mysterious and dark, sensational and tragic. And it's unfinished. I'm Kathleen Goldhar. And this is the No Good, Terribly Kind, Wonderful Lives and Tragic Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman.

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KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I'm Kathleen, nice to meet you.

ANONYMOUS: I'm really apprehensive of doing this.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: I know you are. And we're going to keep your name out of it. Yeah, 100%.

ANONYMOUS: It goes deeper than you, then you're probably... I don't know. My opinion is it goes deeper than everyone thinks it is.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Well, let's talk about that. Do you want to sit in the car? No, you sit outside here. Okay, maybe just on the inside there, just so that we don't draw too much attention.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It's going to be pretty hard not to draw any attention. This man has pulled up in a neon colored sprinter van, and I have a microphone in his face even before he's out of the truck. But more than the bright vehicle and our recording equipment, we stand out because we're practically the only people on the street. We're talking in front of 50 Old Colony Road in the north end of Toronto. Old Colony Road is right beside the Bridle Path, one of Canada's richest neighborhoods. The houses are huge and they're set back from the road. Circular driveways are full of expensive cars, but most of the vehicles on the road this morning are service vehicles. Gardeners, pool guys, the trappings of the wealthy dot each winding street, and no one goes for a walk. There are few sidewalks. You do occasionally see a nanny with her charges or a super skinny, usually older woman out for a stroll with her small yappy dog. But that's it.

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KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So tell me about that day.

ANONYMOUS: December 15th, I think it was.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: December 15th, 2017. This man, whose identity we promised to keep secret, was scheduled to do some maintenance work at the home of a wealthy couple named Barry and Honey Sherman. He'd worked inside the Sherman home many times over the past 20 years and had developed a kind of routine with them, mainly dealing with Honey.

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KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And how would you describe her?

ANONYMOUS: Interesting character.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What does that mean?

ANONYMOUS: Well, she was demanding, and I knew I had to have my ducks in order when I talked to her. So she'd call me out if she didn't think something was right. Usually she yells down the stairs to me and screamed something at me. And then I just continue on my day.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But on this day, the house felt different.

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ANONYMOUS: As soon as I walked downstairs, just something wasn't ... It didn't ... I'd been there for years and years. And she was always concerned about lights and doors and all that being kept closed and lights and doors were wide open and I just thought something was off.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So on this cold December morning in this unusually quiet house, he continued downstairs to do his work in a room right beside the Sherman's indoor pool, a pool that had not been used in years.

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ANONYMOUS: No, nobody goes down there. It was kind of a room that they hadn't used or I stopped servicing it years ago and I would always go down there previously, but never any more. From the basement, the garage, you can see the glass wall and you can see if there's lights on in that room and there was no lights.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So he just went about his work, not knowing that just behind that glass wall, something terrible was hidden in the dark. Hours later, a real estate agent showing the newly listed house to potential buyers would come across a grisly scene.

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LEO SEWELL: He's appropriately a little taller than she is.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The agent would open the door to the pool room and find Barry and Honey Sherman suspended from belts looped around their necks. The other end attached to the pool railing. Police describe them as being found in a semi seated position.

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LEO SEWELL: They're within a foot of one another.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Media at the time reported that they both had their arms behind their backs held there by their jackets, which had been pushed down from their shoulders.

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LEO SEWELL: They're inanimate. You know, I don't make things move.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: That's artist Leo Sewell, again, describing his sculpture. The Toronto Star's Kevin Donovan, who's covered this case extensively and written a book on the Shermans, reported that Honey and Barry may have been deliberately posed to look like Leo sculpture, a piece they owned and was on display in a nearby room. We've talked to dozens of people about this case. One person said, "Solve the question of why the bodies were posed like that and we'll solve the crime." Someone else said that the idea that the bodies were deliberately left to look like Leo's sculpture: no way. In the years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, there have been hundreds of stories and blogs and theories. There's only one certainty. This is a crazy story, and once you start digging, it's hard to stop. To say the deaths of Honey and Barry Sherman shook the city and the country is an understatement. They were some of the wealthiest people in North America. Barry Sherman founded one of Canada's largest generic drug companies, and Honey was a fixture in the Toronto Jewish community. And they were powerful. A cast of Canada's who's who attended their funeral, including the Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau. But it was their gruesome death, the manner in which they were found, and a lack of any clear information about what happened to them — well, that's what really caught everyone's attention very quickly.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: Very quickly, it became a big story, like there aren't a lot of stories from Canada that go global.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Matthew Campbell is a Canadian reporter and editor for Bloomberg Businessweek. Today, he's based in Singapore, but he used to work out of London.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: Where I did European and occasionally North American stories, which is how I came into this story.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But it's more than just the sensational aspects of their deaths that drew Matthew to the story.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: I was a year apart in school from Jonathan Sherman.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Jonathan, one of Honey and Barry's four children. Both Jonathan and Matthew attended an expensive private school called Upper Canada College.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: There's rich and there's rich. Like certainly lots of people at UCC, and the great majority would be from very privileged backgrounds. Being the child of billionaires who, depending on when you looked at it, were in the top 15 or 20 wealthiest families in Canada, that's something of a different enterprise. And I definitely knew that he was the scion of this incredibly wealthy family. The only son.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: But they had another even closer association.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: And the other important point of familiarity was I'm Jewish. I was raised in the Jewish community in Toronto. My parents were fairly prominent in the Jewish community, as, of course, the Sherman's were. Far more prominent in the Shaman's case. And they were well-acquainted in kind of a ... not to the point, I would say, of being close friends, but certainly friendly and well known to each other.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Toronto's Jewish community is really tight. It's connected and it just sometimes feels so small. There's pretty much one degree of separation between most Toronto Jews. They know your cousin, or they worked with an uncle or went to school with your mother. For example, my first cousin golfed at the same club as the Shermans, and my other cousin works with their real estate agent, but not the one that found the bodies. The community tends to stick together. We join the same clubs, live in the same areas, and send our kids to certain schools. Not everyone, of course. My parents didn't live in a Jewish area, but my cousins did so, one degree. And in this tight connected community, the Shermans were titans — generous philanthropists to Jewish causes. Their names graced the walls of universities, parks, art galleries and hospitals across Toronto. And when they were found dead, it's all we could talk about. And some of us still are.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: In the morning of that day, two real estate agents came to the house, and they have a couple with them, and they go around the house and they go downstairs and one of the agents went in first ahead of her clients, and she then goes into the pool and sees something, which, I mean, I'm sure is an image that that no one could ever forget of Barry and Honey side by side on the floor below a railing that ran around one end of the pool and their necks had been secured to this railing with men's leather belts. They were dead, obviously. Barry had his legs extended forward and they were crossed at the ankles and Honey was sort of slumped on her side. So it was a very strange scene. And, of course, as you can imagine, an incredibly shocking scene. And the estate agent called 911. And from there, the police did eventually turn up and the rest unfolded over the remainder of that day

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Over the next eight episodes, we're going to tell you a story about the mysterious deaths of Honey and Barry Sherman. We're going to dig into how the couple lived, their extraordinary wealth, how they generated it and what it did to them — to their businesses and to their families — and why, in some ways, too much money may ultimately be what killed them. Because it isn't just what extreme wealth does for people. It's also about what it does to them. What kind of life do you have to live that when you're found dead there are multiple theories about who might have murdered you, including some involving your own family. In the years since Honey and Barry Sherman were found dead, the lack of justice has left a void that has been filled by online sleuths, investigative reporters, nosy neighbors and conspiracy theorists. Even the Sherman's own maintenance guy has a theory. The conspiracies go deep and I want to put it out there right from the get go. We didn't approach this story with the intention of solving it, but we are going to pick through the theories that are out there

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: I think logic kind of breaks in a situation like this. And the other reason that there have been so many theories is nature abhors a vacuum. And, you know, in the absence of information, in the absence of arrests in an environment, you know, in Canada, where law enforcement is so incredibly allergic to providing meaningful information of any kind for any reason, people speculate and they project into that absence whatever they can come up with. And probably in the Sherman case, people will be doing that for a very long time unless and until there is some kind of resolution.

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MICHELLE SHEPHARD: I recognize those shoes.

MARK MENDELSON: Special shoes for you. Oh, you look good. You look so good. Thank you.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Nice to meet you.

MARK MENDELSON: She's all geared up already.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: She's already on. It's podcast, we roll all the time.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Mark Mendelson was a Toronto police officer for 28 years. For half that time, he was a homicide detective.

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MARK MENDELSON: Currently, I have a consulting company and a private investigation company.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Producer Michelle Shephard and I met up with him in our offices. Mark retired from policing before the Shermans deaths, but he knows his way around a murder investigation. So he offered to walk us through what likely happened after the bodies were discovered on December 15th.

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KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: What did you think when you first heard about it?

MARK MENDELSON: Well, I thought what everybody else thought. You know, those magic words that were uttered by the detective who stepped outside after he'd been in the house. And, you know, I'll paraphrase, but essentially what he said was that, you know, there's no threat to public safety.

BRANDON PRICE: I just wanted to alleviate some concerns in the neighborhood.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So that's homicide detective Brandon Price outside 50 Old Colony Road, talking to a small scrum of reporters on the night of December 15th, 2017.

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BRANDON PRICE: I can say that at this point in the investigation, though, it is very early. We are not currently seeking or looking for an outstanding suspect.

MARK MENDELSON: Two people are dead. And the magic words "and we're not looking for any suspects," which is code word to every journalist in the world is suicide or double suicide or it was a murder suicide.

BRANDON PRICE: But I just want to put people in the area's minds at ease. I can say that we did not observe any signs of forced entry to the to the building. And so at this point, the indications are that we had no outstanding suspect.

MARK MENDELSON: I'm quite sure if that officer could walk those words back, I think they would. Because that set the tone for everything that flowed from that point on.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Can you tell me what you think the cops would have seen to make them think it was a murder suicide?

MARK MENDELSON: I don't know what was running through their minds, and I don't know what their state of mind was. I don't know what would lead them to believe that if it's accurate what we've been told that they're both sort of hanging from their necks with a ligature, from the railing in the swimming pool area — there was no rush to make a determination. And the only way you get that information is by doing interviews. You start with the people that found the body. And I'm talking about a short period of time. Quickly, like within hours, you're sort of wrangling all these people, the people that found the body, you know, the housekeeper, the family, the children. And you try and learn what the family is all about. And you're not giving up information to them, you know, but it could be a simple question. "What's your mom's regular habit and practice when she comes home from wherever?" And that takes time. So as you get all these little pieces of a puzzle together and put all these dots together, you hope at the end of the day that the dots actually have a picture.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Detective Price never used the words murder suicide, but the implication was clear. And the media ran with the idea that Barry killed his wife and then killed himself.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: So the kids were horrified by the idea that their father had killed their mother and killed himself, as anyone would be.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: This is Bloomberg reporter Matthew Campbell again.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: So the very first thing they did was they put out a press release, saying that they thought this was totally out of character with everything they knew about their parents and that they expected the police to do a full investigation and to not foreclose any possibilities that do not, you know, rule out that this had been a double homicide.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: In response, the family did something that most of us would never think to do or could even afford to do. The day after their parent's bodies were discovered they decided they were going to pay for their own separate investigation.

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: They then went and hired Brian Greenspan, who, if I ever have the misfortune of being charged criminally in Canada, he's probably who I would call, too. So they hired him not to defend them in the courts, because, of course, they weren't being charged with anything but to represent their interests and to essentially push back on this emerging conclusion that this had been a murder suicide.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So over the next few days, while the police were doing their work, the Sherman children were working with Brian Greenspan, putting a team together that would mirror the official investigation that included doing a second autopsy.

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MARK MENDELSON: The mystery is, as per normal protocol, both autopsies were done probably the next day. And they announced, you know, the cause of death at that time, I think it was manual strangulation or some form of that...

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The official cause of death was given as ligature neck compression and Honey had injuries to her face. It was also revealed that the couple had been dead nearly 36 hours before they were discovered. But beyond that, the police didn't give much information.

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MARK MENDELSON: Nor should they, because, you know, you've got to keep things close to the vest. There's hold back evidence, things of that nature. But the family retained a forensic pathologist, David Chiasson, who used to work in that office, in the coroner's office. I had done many murders with him, he's highly respected. And he came to a very different conclusion than the original pathologist did. And, of course, you know what's going on in the background. You've got the chief pathologist and you've got everybody else huddling around going, okay, what do we do here? We've got two divergent opinions as to what happened, both by, you know, respected and experienced pathologists. And now we've got to come up with something. And it it still took Toronto police, I think, about six weeks before they came public and basically said, yes, we have a double murder.

POLICE OFFICER: We believe now through the six weeks of work review, we have sufficient evidence to describe this as a double homicide investigation and that both Honey and Barry Sherman were in fact targetted.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: It's unclear what went on behind the scenes. Why did the official police narrative move away from their original theory? Was there pressure from the powerful Sherman family and their famously tenacious lawyer?

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MATTHEW CAMPBELL: It certainly stands to reason that if you have a five or so week period where you think it's open and shut and you know who the murderer was and he's already dead, well then there are lots of things you wouldn't do. There are lots of people you would not talk to, lots of documents you wouldn't pull. And of course, I'm sure in many cases that gap made no difference. You know the bank records or surveillance tapes , they're still there five or six weeks later. But you have to wonder if there was evidence that could have been gathered if the police had been more aggressive about going after it sooner in the process.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Brian Greenspan, the lawyer hired by the Sherman children, concluded that the original police investigation was misguided and that the Toronto Police service, "conducted itself well below the standard of how a reasonable officer in a similar circumstance should have acted." Included in a long list of problems, Greenspan and his team said that the police didn't vacuum the immediate area where the Shermans were found. Maybe missing an important hair or some sort of fabric evidence. He also said the police failed to recognize that the bodies were staged and they criticized the investigators when it came to collecting fingerprints.

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ANONYMOUS: My boss at the time had called the police just to let them know that we were there, we were in the house that day. And so they didn't seem overly concerned at the time. He gave my name and all that, and nobody reached out that day.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: The Sherman’s maintenance guy, again, the one with the Ivermectin theory, the one who went into the house early on the morning of December 15th, walked into the basement and went to work in a room right beside the area where, unbeknownst to him, Honey and Barry Sherman's bodies were waiting to be discovered.

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KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: How did you find out?

ANONYMOUS: My boss called me and says, "Did you hear?" And I said, "No. What?" He says, "While you were at the Sherman's this morning, and apparently they were found inside the house deceased." Like, oh, Jesus. Like from there, kind of, everything in my head started spinning, trying to think. Like I said, it just didn't feel right from the second I walked in the door. So I was like, wow, this ... pretty surprised.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: When did you finally hear from the police?

ANONYMOUS: Like several weeks.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Several weeks? I mean, doesn't that seem like a long time to wait to contact somebody who was in the house the day that the bodies were found? It does make you wonder what was overlooked that night or in the days and weeks that followed the discovery of their bodies, especially when six weeks later the police changed their tune and announced it's a double homicide. So it is in this time of shifting narratives that Honey and Barry Sherman's death took on a life of their own. Gossipers whispered about family conflict and fights over money. Online sleuths connected the smallest, barely visible dots to sketch out farfetched theories. And then came the questions about Barry himself. He was described as obsessive, vengeful and aggressively litigious. Did he take it too far with the wrong person? And what about Barry's business? Generic drugs and his long, drawn out expensive fight with Big Pharma? Billions to be made and lost. Was it a business deal gone bad? Someone in the family. Maybe it was the Russian mob or even Mossad. Even the Clintons were implicated, the couple with more conspiracy theories attached to their name than the Shermans.

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MARK MENDELSON: Anywhere that I go and I run into people that I know, to this day what do they always say? "What do you think of the Shermans? Oh, well, here's what I heard." Okay, I know a cousin, a cousin of mine, she's a fourth cousin, but she knew somebody who used to deliver flowers there 15 years ago, and when she stopped delivering flowers, she....

SAUL RUBINEK READING FOR BARRY SHERMAN: The fact that there are imponderables does not prevent intelligent beings from coming to some conclusions with a high degree of confidence in their correctness based on observations and logical deduction.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: This is Barry Sherman. Well, Barry's writings, performed by actor Saul Rubinek. Saul Rubinek is a Canadian actor best known for his roles on TV shows like Hunters and Frasier and films like Unforgiven and True Romance. He's also Jewish and like Honey his parents were Holocaust survivors. He even looks a little bit like Barry.

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SAUL RUBINEK READING FOR BARRY SHERMAN: Serengeti, Tanzania. December 27, 1996.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: One of the things police did find when they eventually searched Barry's desk at his office was a copy of his unfinished autobiography entitled A Legacy of Thoughts.

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SAUL RUBINEK READING FOR BARRY SHERMAN: I admit to being a workaholic.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: This is from the preface.

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SAUL RUBINEK READING FOR BARRY SHERMAN: This is day eight of my two-week vacation with my wife, Honey, and four children Lauren, Jonathon, Alexandra, and Kaelen. Usually when going on vacation, I take business files long and am in frequent contact with my office. This time, however, I took no files and have been incommunicado. It occurred to me today that there is no better time than now to put pen to paper and begin to write a text that has been forming in my mind for some time.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: A Legacy of Thoughts was never published, maybe because it was never finished.

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SAUL RUBINEK READING FOR BARRY SHERMAN: I have always been very conscious of my personal mortality. I have enjoyed considerable success in building the Apotex group of companies, which probably will survive me. However, memories are brief, and even should there survive some physical manifestation of my existence, my thoughts will be forever lost unless I commit them to paper.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Barry's written words now survive him, and maybe in hearing how he describes his life, we can find some clues as to who ended it or why.

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SAUL RUBINEK READING FOR BARRY SHERMAN: I thus set out to write this text in the perhaps arrogant belief that what I have to say maybe of user interest to my progeny and others.

[Music]

KG: That was episode one of the CBC podcast The No Good, Terribly Kind, Wonderful Lives and Tragic Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman. The whole series is available on the CBC Listen App or wherever you get your podcasts. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. I'm Kathleen Goldhar. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Monday July 24, 2023 Episode Transcript

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