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The Current Transcript for July 20, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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Sweltering heat waves from Arizona to Athens

Guests: Dr. Kevin Foster, Eleni Myrivili

SOUNDCLIP

The growth in simultaneous heatwaves around the northern Hemisphere has increased sixfold since the 1980s. We've already seen them impact Asia, North and Central America, Africa, the Middle East and now Europe.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Hot doesn't even begin to describe some of the extreme temperatures we're seeing around the world this summer. Red alerts have hit countries like Italy, Spain and Croatia, and even places like the state of Arizona that is used to heat are breaking records of consecutive days above 43 degrees Celsius. How are people coping? We'll speak to the United Nations global chief heat officer about how the world should be adapting to the scorching weather. That's coming up in a moment. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

Hi, Barbie.

Hi, Barbie.

Hi, Barbie.

Hi, Barbie.

Hi, Barbie.

Hi, Barbie.

RB: She's kind of everywhere right now, Barbie, that is with the launch of a new movie tomorrow. The cultural icon is back in the spotlight, though maybe she never left. But with the spotlight come questions about Barbie's impact for good and for bad. We'll talk about Barbie, who she was, who she is, and where she fits in pop culture. That's in 30 minutes. Plus, women's World Cup soccer with Canada. The Olympic gold medal champs hitting the pitch today. But we begin with that heat wave sweeping large parts of the world right now. I'm Rosemary Barton sitting in for Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

RB: It is hot everywhere. This summer, much of Europe, the U.S. and Asia are dealing with record breaking heat waves. This week, the World Meteorological Organisation warned of increased risk of deaths from the heat. We'll hear from the UN's global chief chief Heat officer in just a moment. But first to Arizona.

SOUNDCLIP

If you've been outside all day long and then you're wanting to go to sleep and you're still outside and you're on concrete or asphalt, you never get a chance to cool down because the low is still 90 degrees.

RB: To be clear, that's a low of 32 degrees Celsius. Abby Robin Linder works with people experiencing homelessness in Phoenix, Arizona. The city hit a record this week, 20 straight days with a temperature reaching or exceeding 43 degrees, breaking the record set almost 50 years ago. And it is taking a toll on the city's most vulnerable.

SOUNDCLIP

We have a lot of individuals that have mental health challenges as well as substance abuse issues. And when they're self-medicating, it's even less obvious to them that he's having an effect. It's, I think, why there's such a concern that people may not survive.

RB: Heat related illnesses and injuries have spiked, including burns. Dean Sheinert works with homeless seniors in Phoenix.

SOUNDCLIP

Speaker 3: Many of our members who are coming in dehydrated, some of them have some heat stroke. A few have sores on their feet because they are walking on pavement or sleeping on the hot pavement. So they have heat burns throughout their body.

RB: Dr. Kevin Foster is the director of the Arizona Burn Centre in Phoenix. Dr. Foster, good morning.

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Good morning.

RB: What kind of burns are you seeing at your centre right now?

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: The summertime is always a busy time because of the hot ambient temperatures and sunlight and stuff that makes it hot and makes contact burns really a common thing in the summertime this summer because the temperatures are really hot right now and direct sunlight. We are seeing lots of patients who are falling down onto concrete, pavement, asphalt and suffering really, really deep burns as a result of that.

RB: Jeez. How does it compare to previous years?

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: You know, this is something that we see pretty much every year. We expect it. But for some reason this year, the incidence of these injuries is particularly high. I mean, like twice, twice the normal that we that we typically see. And it's not immediately obvious why that is.

RB: So you mentioned pavement. What other things are people getting burned on or with?

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Right. So anything that's in direct sunlight and exposed to the hot temperatures outside. So another common thing we see is, you know, hot door handles, hot upholstery in cars, a variety of things within vehicles like the steering wheel, dashboards, seatbelt buckles. And then something that people don't think about very often, but hose water or water that's not a hose that's outside. Oftentimes it's very near boiling.

RB: Oh, my gosh.

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Comes out the hose. So even if you let it run for a while, the water in Arizona is not does not get cold or cool. It always stays hot.

RB: And how hot are these things? Like how hot is the pavement? Do you have a sense?

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: We've tested it over the years and it's pretty consistent that on a hot summer afternoon in Arizona, black asphalt can get 170 to 180 degrees, which is just a little bit below boiling. And hot concrete or sidewalk or other types of pavement will get to 260, 170 degrees.

RB: So you're well beyond being able to fry an egg on the pavement here.

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Absolutely. Definitely you could fry an egg on a pavement.

RB: What what kind of I mean, I'm making jokes, but what kind of shape are people in? Because these are these are fairly serious burns when they happen.

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Yeah. So, you know, people go down for a reason. Oftentimes it's elderly people who take a fall and can't get up or medication related or related to ongoing medical problems. We are definitely seeing an increase in people using methamphetamine that is contaminated with ethanol. And they're going down. And we're seeing, you know, a fair number of homeless people. It tends to make these injuries really, really bad because people just stay down for a prolonged period of time.

RB: All right. So what kind of degree of burn are you talking about?

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Almost always third degree burn. Almost all of these patients require admission to the hospital, frequently to the intensive care unit. And almost all of them are requiring surgeries and most of them multiple surgeries.

RB: Wow. Do you have any specific cases that that jump out to you that you've seen already this year?

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Oh, well, right now, I would say we've got probably 20 people in the hospital that have serious injuries from going out on hot pavement. And, you know, yesterday and the last couple of days, we've probably seen two or three times that number of patients in our burn emergency department who we didn't have to admit we were able to treat them as outpatients. But I think the typical injuries, you know, an elderly man who goes out to get the mail and trips on a rock and falls into a rock garden, is unable to get up and lays out there for 20 minutes. And not only does he get that burns, but he also has a heat shock because his temperature goes up and it only takes a short exposure in the afternoon sunlight and hot temperatures to get your temperature go up way beyond the safe range.

RB: And what about just in terms of your medical clinic, seeing a heat related illness like put aside the burn issue, but just as you said, people suffering from heatstroke or dehydration?

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Yeah, this is something that we see very commonly, very often. It almost always accompanies these deep burns when people go down and they don't get up right away, almost always, and suffer heat shock or heat prostration. And that can be, you know, central nervous system problems, liver failure, kidney failure. So, yeah, that is a problem. And then we see a fair number of patients here that don't even have cutaneous burns, but they're suffering from heat shock. That tends to be a big problem with people who are visiting here. Most here, most people who live in Arizona, most Native Arizonans have a pretty healthy respect for hot temperatures and direct sunlight. Sure, we avoid it. We don't go outside in the middle of the afternoon. But oftentimes people who are visiting here don't realise how hot it actually is and how quickly you can get dehydrated and suffer heat shock.

RB: Are people dying? I mean, maybe not from the. Burns, but the heat shock and the other things as well.

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Yeah, unfortunately the mortality associated with this is fairly high. I mean, most people get better, but, you know, most of the people that we admit to the burn centre we expect are going to do fine. This particular disease entity seems to have a higher mortality associated with it than you would expect for the extent or the depth of the wound. And I think that it has to do with, you know, people suffering heat prostration and, you know, the associated medical problems and substance abuse that goes along with it.

RB: So, I mean, obviously, as you said, people who live there. No, you don't. You just don't go outside at these times of day. But to your point, there are people who don't have anywhere to go or who maybe have to work outside or all kinds of things. What would you like to see authorities do to try and help those people in Phoenix to deal with these kinds of extreme temperatures?

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: I think that most most businesses do a pretty good job taking care of the workers. You know, they make sure that they're working in the shade as much as possible, take frequent breaks, have exposure to a place to cool, to cool off, oftentimes use, you know, water and blisters and, you know, lots of hydration. But I think for homeless people, it's a problem. We do need to provide better shelters for people and a way for people to get out of the heat. And I think that it's really important that people recognise that they have to stay hydrated. And it's misleading here because, you know, the humidity is really low and it doesn't feel quite as hot as it really is.

RB: The dry heat.

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Well, yeah, but it's also misleading and I think that, you know, people will go out for a walk and dip pretty far away and then suddenly realise, oh boy, I'm in trouble. And by that time you are in trouble.

RB: Well, you know, I know you've dealt with this for some time. I know you're accustomed to extreme temperatures, but there does seem to be something happening in the world in relation to climate change. And I just wonder whether you are concerned about how things are going to get worse over the next months and years.

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Yeah, we really are. Because, you know, Arizona is kind of right at the we're kind of at the at the edge of tolerability. You know, it can't get a whole lot hotter here before it becomes really intolerable. I mean, once you hit 120 degrees, that is really, really hot. It's almost impossible to go outside under those temperatures. And you can't touch anything. Everything is is is is boiling hot. So, yeah, I am definitely concerned because we can't get a whole lot hotter and still have this be a place where people can actually live and function.

RB: Okay. Dr. Foster, You know, I'm in Canada, so these kinds of temperatures, we get up there, but not like this. We kind of go into the negatives in the other direction. So it's fascinating to hear how you're coping and trying to help people. Appreciate it very much.

DR. KEVIN FOSTER: Thank you. It's a great talking to you.

RB: Dr. Kevin Foster is the director of the Arizona Burn Centre in Phoenix. Well, record breaking temperatures have also hit southern and Eastern Europe. Parts of Italy could see highs of 48 degrees in the coming days. In Italy, Spain and Greece, there are red alerts warning people of a very high health risk due to heat. And in Greece, multiple wildfires are raging. Eleni Myrivili is the global chief heat officer for the United Nations and the R Struck Resilience Centre. She is in Athens this morning. Good morning, Eleni.

ELENI MYRIVILI: Good morning, Rosemary. It's devastating to hear Dr. Foster about Phoenix, Arizona. Devastating.

RB: Yeah, isn't it? It's shocking to you that these kinds of things are happening. Give me a sense of what it feels like in Athens today.

ELENI MYRIVILI: Uh, it's. It's. It's serious. Searingly hot. It's the second heat wave that is starting to peak these days. We had one blast last week that reached the low forties, 40, 41, and now the second heatwave rolling. Heatwave is peaking. It will be on the weekend. It's said that will reach 44 degrees Celsius. And finally, there's going to be a third one next week. We just heard it's as you said, there are these heat domes now on all of the northern hemisphere. If you look at it on the metrological map, is is really it's really shocking to see how it's all red hot.

RB: Yeah. And it's different, right? Like, this isn't something that we've seen in the past. It does seem like it's more prevalent and more extreme than past years.

ELENI MYRIVILI: Yeah, absolutely. And I keep you know, I keep saying if that if those images don't scream climate change, I don't know what else does. And the only hope is that with this type of extraordinarily low rolling extreme temperatures in the north Hemisphere, we're going to have really strong commitments in actual results in the mitigation efforts from the from the countries involved.

RB: I remember yeah, I remember I spoke to you in 2021. And at that time you said if the world continued warming, that Athens would one day be uninhabitable. Is that still your view?

ELENI MYRIVILI: I think so. I think. I mean, it's it's a really it's it's it's a dystopian kind of vision. I don't think only Athens. A lot of cities might end up being uninhabitable if we continue in the way that we're going. Because different scientists have said that, you know, humans and livestock and plants actually love this niche that we've been living for centuries, which is the global annual mean temperature, as they call it, between 11 and 14 degrees Celsius. And they say that if we continue with business as usual, we're going to go up to 29, like higher than 29 global warming temperatures by 2060 or 2070. And this 29 are above a global annual, mean temperature can be found right now, only 0.8% of our Earth, which is in the Sahara Desert. So. Right. And and this is supposed to to really expand if we just continue like this into one, one third of the people of the globe are going to be living in conditions that are totally unliveable.

RB: So so how are countries in Europe and other places preparing to or currently dealing with this heat? Are they able to.

ELENI MYRIVILI: They're trying, they're starting, which is great and it's important. And we are. I think that, first of all, there are more and more measures that cities are taking to protect the most vulnerable, which are usually the people that are the poorest and the most socioeconomically marginalised. They are the ones that bear the brunt and also people that are older and people with pre-existing conditions. So these types of vulnerability, we have to make sure to protect and to make sure that we actually understand that we have to do to respond to these crises through a very strong equity lens. Like we really have to understand that it'sthe ones that are the most vulnerable, that are the worst, the ones that suffer the most. So we have to to to really try to protect them. And I think these are really quickly trying to do so. And in the United Nations there is this the priority of the Secretary-General is to, for example, to create early warning systems for all, which is one of the most important things that we can do with heat.

RB: And Eleni, are you seeing any success stories in terms of adaptation, anything that you've you've seen in a city or a country and thought, that's a good idea, That's something everyone needs to start doing?

ELENI MYRIVILI: Yes, there's like great success stories in cities that are from, you know, from the north to the south. The the great example of Seoul, Seoul in South Korea, where they renatured a river, getting rid of this incredible highway that had 14 lanes. And it's it has lowered the temperatures in in that whole part of the city. They have measured now that temperatures are lowered by six degrees. If you compare that, those districts from districts that are in other parts of the city, Medellin in Colombia has created 36 green corridors that basically cut through the whole city, connecting green areas, bring temperatures down an average of 4 to 5 degrees. Utrecht and Paris and Milan are really stepping on in, stepping up, creating, you know, green and blue infrastructure. It's an effort. But still there is very little funding that goes to these types of projects and we really, really need to step it up.

RB: Your I guess your boss now, the U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, warned climate change is out of control and it's the world doesn't limit fossil fuel emissions. It would move into a, quote, catastrophic situation.

ELENI MYRIVILI: Exactly.

RB: Yeah. How close are we to that? Or and or do you still have hope that we can avoid it?

ELENI MYRIVILI: I always have hope. And and the last report of the IPCC says that there's still time to do things to avoid these catastrophic results, which we are starting to see. Right. I mean, we didn't know it was going to happen that soon, that we have these types of heat waves. We're starting to see things go a little bit out of control. So I'm really, really hoping that it's going to be a wake up call and we're going to see it really stepping on the gas or I should say, on the whatever.

RB: Off the gas.

ELENI MYRIVILI: Off the gas. Exactly. In really stopping with our dependence on fossil fuels as fast as possible.

RB: Greece is dealing with multiple wildfires. Canada, too, has. We're expecting this to be a record year for wildfires. British Columbia right now has already hit a record. These are obviously things that that beyond the heat, just being difficult to live, make it, you know, destructive and dangerous for people. How worried are you about that component of this?

ELENI MYRIVILI: This is, this is the problem that heat comes with a series of compounding effects and other cascading types of crises. Right? We have extraordinary droughts that the Europe suffered through last year. We have wildfires and the loss of biodiversity, which is another enormous chapter that contributes to even more heat and even more suffering for for humans and for cities. So so the the fact that we really need water when things get hotter is really important. We have to get backups for our our most important resources, which is water, food and energy backup systems and sustainable ways of managing this system in order to go into the future in there with some hope.

RB: And you still have hope. I talked to you two years ago and you still have it even now. So that's that's probably an important part of your job a little more broadly. Thank you.

ELENI MYRIVILI: Yes.

RB: Thank you so much for. Speaking with us. Try and stay cool there in Athens. It does it does look bad for the next week or so. Thank you for your time. Okay. Have a good day. Eleni Myrivili is the global chief Heat officer for the United Nations and the Arched Rock Resilience Centre. We reached her in a very warm Athens this morning. The CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

Mattel has done an interesting job at certain points along the way of kind of reflecting what's going on in culture. And at the same time stayed pretty much the same.

RB: This summer, pop culture is all about Barbie with the iconic toy getting the Hollywood treatment. We're being reminded of the cultural phenomenon Barbie has been for decades, including, of course, sometimes the centre of controversy. Who and what is Barbie in 2023? You know, we had to have this conversation. We're back in 6 minutes. I'm Rosemary Barton and you're listening to The Current.

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High hopes for Canada at Women’s World Cup; how Barbie (mostly) moved with the times

Guests: Andi Petrillo, Tanya Lee Stones, Lagueria Davis

RB: Hello, I'm Rosemary Barton and you're listening to The Current. Canada's women's soccer team is taking to the pitch tonight at the 2023 FIFA World Cup. The tournament is taking place in both Australia and New Zealand. Canada's best showing at a World Cup was 20 years ago when they lost in the semi-finals. But hopes are high for the reigning Olympic gold medal winners, despite an ongoing labour dispute with its own federation. CBC Sport's Andi Petrillo is host of Soccer North. And Andy, good morning.

ANDI PETRILLO: In Morning.

RB: What makes this tournament so different from, for instance, like the last World Cup, the last women's World Cup?

ANDI PETRILLO: Oh, a lot has happened in four years. I mean, you mentioned the host. So for the first time, they have two hosts in Australia and New Zealand. For the first time, we're seeing 32 teams. So it's expanded from 24. We're seeing more nations competing. Eight are making their World Cup debut. For the first time, we're also seeing a major increase in prize money. In 2019 is 30 million. This time it's 110 million. And also, for the first time, FIFA is paying the players directly. You know, they there was a research, an investigation, whatever you want to call it, done back in the fall where, you know, it was proven that the women are undervalued. Certain federations just flat out withheld money from players. There's there was a lot of disrespect and undervaluing going on with the women's game. So FIFA in this landmark decision said we're just actually going to pay the players directly so they all get a minimum of $30,000 each for the group stage. And then, of course, that increases as it moves on. So you're really starting to see a growth in the game for sure.

RB: And that's sort of why the prize pot has changed as well, because at that point of contention between men and women. Right.

ANDI PETRILLO: Oh, sure. And we know that it's still nowhere near what men make, right, Rosie? I mean, was it 440 million was the prize for the men. This is 110 million. So there's still a lot of work to be done, but we're seeing progress.

RB: Australia has sold out its opening match. Over 1 million tickets have been sold before the tournament. What does that tell you? Just just as you said, that that this is starting to become a real thing, that it's growing, I guess.

ANDI PETRILLO: Yeah. And, you know, it's it's kind of, you know, two steps forward, one step back. It's something else that's new this year. It's for the first time, FIFA separately negotiated the women's rights. So before a network, if you purchased the rights to the men's World Cup, the Women's World Cup was thrown in. It was added. Now, FIFA said we're going to do these individually. So to your point, you know, viewership and ticket sales and that's all through the roof and growing. But FIFA still fell $100 million short of their $300 million broadcasting rights sales globally. So they were not too pleased about that. So it's kind of like the fans are there. They're showing up, but still in certain countries. And it was mostly in Europe, the European networks, it's still trying to convince them that you can make money off the women's game. So, you know, put the money there and the sponsors will come. So you're still kind of at this fork in the road a little bit, right, with the women's game.

RB: Okay. So let's talk about our team, who have obviously won gold at the Olympics in Tokyo. What's the team looking like heading into this?

ANDI PETRILLO: Well, the team's good. At one question mark right now is, is Jessie Fleming. Jessie Fleming, a big name for this team? She's become essentially the face of this team, although don't get me wrong, everyone obviously knows Christine Sinclair. But we do know that Christine Sinclair is 40 years old and she'll probably play more of a supporting role. Jessie Fleming looks like she's dealing with a bit of a calf injury. Nobody seems to be saying anything but Rosemarie. Fingers crossed that she does end up starting in tonight's match. But I mean, other than that, the team is is looking good. A lot of these players were the players who won gold in Tokyo, with the exception, of course, of a pretty big name in Steph Labbe, the goalkeeper who's retired. But Kailen Sheridan is the reigning NWSL goalkeeper of the year. So by no means is Canada in trouble when it comes to goal. So they're still a strong team. The biggest question mark, of course, is can they score? They won that Olympic gold based on really stellar defence, but here at the World Cup got a score. So we'll see if they if that also shows up.

RB: Who's the toughest competition out there, do you think?

ANDI PETRILLO: Oh, it's still the Americans. They are they are still the strongest. It really just feels like they're just it's like a factory just producing players there. But yeah, they're actually favoured to win an unprecedented third World Cup in a row. Haven't even seen that done on the men's side. So they're still really strong. And then a team that could challenge them would be England. They're the reigning European champions, and despite missing some players due to injury, they're still really, really strong. And then, of course, the host nation, one of the host nations, New Zealand, actually won today. They started things and they got their first World Cup win one nil over Norway. Norway was my darkhorse. So I'm already losing in my poll. I'm not like, you know, that's going.

RB: As the Canadian team takes to the pitch, they still don't have a contract with the governing body. Christine Sinclair has obviously talked about this a lot and has said things she calls her most painstaking battle. I want to play a little clip of what she said at a House of Commons committee back in March.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm not sure, honestly where we go from here. The pay equity is actually like just a little piece. It's about equal treatment. It's about equal opportunities, equal resources. And honestly, until that happens, yeah, we're going to be at a stalemate.

RB: I should say that Sinclair today said the agreement is on the verge of being signed. Where is this at, Andi? And. And what should we know about this deal?

ANDI PETRILLO: Yeah. So, I mean, when she's talking about a deal, I would expect and I mean, I would let's, let's put it this way I would be pleasantly surprised if it's the big deal that get signed. And the the big deal, you know, we're talking about is everything that is equal, the equal pay, the big one that signed with the men. We know that's easier said than done because you've got to get the women on board with Canada Soccer plus the men. It's this triangle. So if people are asking, you know, what's the hold-up? Well, you're negotiating with three entities here, so what's the hold up? Don't know, because nobody's really saying why that bigger deal hasn't been signed. But we do know that on the verge of signing something sounds more like, once again, another short term deal that Canada Soccer will sign separately with the women til the end of the year to make sure the women get compensated, at least for what it is that they're doing this year. But that bigger deal the men need to get on board and we're not quite sure what's holding it up, because you also did hear there with Sinclair. Yes, equal pay is the biggest part of that deal, but they're also in the process of negotiating, you know, marketing rights, imaging rights. You know, like she said, the the access to equal resources and treatment and what comes along with that. So, you know, maybe the men have issues with some other things that they're trying to iron out. So they're not ready to sign yet. But it's a little bit frustrating because, you know, this fight obviously has gone public, but now it's kind of gone silent. You don't know exactly what's holding it up. But when it comes to that deal, though, Rosemary, I just wouldn't be surprised if it's more of a short term one just with the women.

RB: Yeah. Christine Sinclair did not seem keen on on giving any details other than saying something is about to happen. So beyond a World Cup win, what do you think is riding on the success of the women's team this year?

ANDI PETRILLO: Oh, I think anytime you're in the World Cup, especially for the women, given that they're perennial contenders, I would say quarter finals, they have to at least get there. That means get out of your group, get past the round of 16, which isn't easy considering you could face England or Denmark in that round of 16, but you're going in as the Olympic champ. So I would expect at least a quarter final because it's really, really tough. And I would also say because I know a lot of people and this is what's so unfair, I think often times in women's sports, well, you have to win and then we'll care about you. All the men can lose, lose, lose all the time. And you know, we still so.

RB: True, so true.

ANDI PETRILLO: But you know what's riding on it? I would still say this when it comes to Project eight, of course, which we know is head up by former player Diana Matheson, which is trying to launch the first ever domestic league in Canada. I think whether the team wins at all or whether the team crashes and burns, it doesn't matter. A domestic league is needed in a domestic league, I think is wanted by a lot of people. So I don't think that the result should make people go, Oh, I see. Told you it's not worth it. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's it's worth it no matter what.

RB: Andi, thank you for doing this. Appreciate it very much.

ANDI PETRILLO: Thanks for having.

RB: Me. Andi Petrillo is host of CBC's Soccer North.

[Music]

I'm Rosemary Barton and you're listening to The Current.

[Music]

SOUNDCLIP

Hey, Barbie.

Hi, Barbie.

Hi, Barbie.

Good morning.

Hi, Barbie.

Hi, Barbie.

Hi, Ken.

Hi, Ken.

RB: The Barbie movie comes out tomorrow and there is a lot, like a lot, of hype around it. Barbie is everywhere. There's Barbie core fashion.

SOUNDCLIP

Here's how you can achieve Barbie Cool. First off, we obviously have to mention hot pink. Wouldn't be Barbie without it. Next is like florals and funky print. Flip flops are also going to be really popular. This one is a paradise, so we need to be on the beach for the margarita.

RB: And Barbie recipes.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm going to show you how to make pink pasta with just three ingredients. So much talk about Barbie at the moment. And I feel like Barbie would definitely eat this. I start off with some garlic, chuck it into a blender with some Greek yoghurt, some Danish feta, a couple of bowls of beetroot and some water. Blend that all up until it's nice and creamy. And then you add it to your pasta.

RB: You might want to skip that one, but you won't be able to avoid pink these days. There's a world of Barbie merch being marketed and a flurry of think pieces about her place in our culture. More than 60 years after her debut, Barbie continues to spark intrigue, imagination and, yes, controversy. Tammy Lee Stone is the author of The Good, The Bad and the Barbie. Tanya, good morning.

TANYA LEE STONE: Good morning.

RB: What do you make of the hype around this, this film, Tanya?

TANYA LEE STONE: I think it's a great time to have another conversation about Barbie. And Greta Gerwig is the perfect person to be exploring all of the different conversations and controversies and passions that kind of continually come up with Barbie. Like, Barbie is always going to spark a wave of conversation. I feel like every time it's brought into the spotlight of conversation.

RB: Greta Gerwing forced, of course, that the director of this movie who's kind of pushed it and as you said, like lots of different directions to examine this. Remind us, though, how Barbie came into being originally.

TANYA LEE STONE: Yeah, Well, she's the brainchild of Ruth Handler, who was a Jewish woman who was newly married to Elliot Handler, who was an artist. And they moved from Denver to L.A.. And Elliot was making all kinds of beautiful things. And she said, I can sell those things. And they started Mattel out of their garage. And she was sort of the driving force behind that. One of the reasons I was interested in telling this story in particular was that this is a really strong female story about a woman inventor and a woman entrepreneur who was kind of a dynamo and didn't let anything stand in her way of creating something successful.

RB: What do you think, Ruth would make of the moment that Barbie is having now? And I mean, you're right, it has gone up and down for Barbie over the course of her existence.

TANYA LEE STONE: Yeah, I think she would love it. I think she would be tickled pink.

RB: Let's talk a little bit about the criticism of Barbie over the years that she promotes unrealistic beauty standards, a very narrow understanding of femininity. What what do you say to those criticisms?

TANYA LEE STONE: Sure. I think it's really an interesting thing. And the reason I titled the book The Good, The Bad and the Barbie is because you can't talk about Barbie without talking about all of that. Right. It's always sort of a push and pull between is this something that makes young people, girls in particular, feel inferior or is this something that empowers them? So for me, I always go back to the core heart intention. That was Ruth. And Ruth, even though she may not have called herself a feminist, certainly acted like one. Ruth was all about choice for girls with a Capital C. She had no judgement or opinion about what a girl wanted to be, whether it was a nurse or a doctor. She wanted them to have the choice. So she designed this as sort of a teeny tiny mannequin because it wasn't really about the body, except for the fact that she wanted the body to be able to showcase the clothes.

RB: And what is Barbie's relationship to the different eras of feminism in terms of how it has evolved over time and how people have experienced Barbie? Because as as feminism evolved.

TANYA LEE STONE: Yeah. I think that Mattel has done an interesting job at certain points along the way of kind of reflecting what's going on in culture. And at the same time stayed pretty much the same over the course of many decades, which is kind of fascinating to me. So to me, the biggest shift was that original 1959 Barbie, who had that sort of coy, sideways downward glance that changed in the seventies to the direct, straightforward gaze that we have now, in part because that's what was going on in the country. We had Ms. magazine, we had Gloria Steinem. We had kind of that that new wave of feminism coming along and that kind of coy. You know, come hither not feeling very dominant. Look of the original Barbie wasn't really working. Hmm. So it's really interesting to look at those two faces next to each other and see how differently they come across.

RB: And how do you square what I assume is your feminism with with your respect and appreciation for for Barbie.

TANYA LEE STONE: Yeah, it's interesting because I tend to write books that are feminist in nature, kind of putting women back in the narrative and looking through the lens of female empowerment. Right. So the biggest question I got when this book came out with Why are you writing a book about Barbie? And for me, it goes back to Ruth. And also this interesting thing that I discovered in the research that I did for it was so often I have sort of an authorial point of view in my books, but in this case I really wanted to kind of put a call out and collect anecdotes and memories from as wide a demographic as I could. And I collected about 500. And what was fascinating to me was that they really split down the middle, pro and con. And what I sort of came away with in the end is it's not what the doll puts on us. It's what we put on the doll. It's an inanimate object. It's what we bring to it.

RB: Right. And I guess that sort of is dependent on your lived experience and where you come from. And so let me turn to that issue, which has been some critique about the lack of diversity. And I want to bring someone else into this conversation for that. Lagueria Davis is a writer and director of the documentary film Black Barbie. Her aunt, as a former Mattel employee, helped create the first black Barbie, Lagueria, nice to chat with you. Tell us more about when Black Barbie was was created and the role your aunt played in that.

LAGUERIA DAVIS: I thank you so much for having me. Yes. So what's really fascinating is, you know, my aunt was on that first Barbie line in 1959. And, you know, she made a friend of Ruth and was like, why not make a black Barbie? Why not make a Barbie that looks like me? And, you know, she was able to work her way up from the assembly line into the corporate office, which kind of is what we call laying the groundwork for someone like Hetty Black Perkins to be hired as the first black woman designer at Mattel. That was in 1976, who would then go on to design the very first black Barbie that was released in 1980 1980.

RB: That's, that's not that long ago. It took a long time to get there. Let me play a clip of your aunt from your documentary about this.

SOUNDCLIP

AUNT: I can't remember having a black black doll when I was a little girl.

LAGUERIA: Not even a black baby doll.

AUNT: Not even a black baby doll. I'm almost sure my dolls for Christmas. We got white dolls.

LAGUERIA: When you were seven or eight. And did you really, really want a black doll? Did you ever?

AUNT: I didn't. It didn't occur to me. It was just a doll. So when people see me now and I have more black dolls, than I have white dolls. Now, it's no big thing to people because they expect it.

RB: So Lagueria, what did that mean to your aunt? The creation of a black doll. A black Barbie.

LAGUERIA DAVIS: You know, for my aunt and for Kitty Black Perkins as well. I feel like black Barbie is kind of like validation of being seen and heard in a space where they had very little agency, if a voice at all. You know, she was so proud. Yeah. When they finally were able to release a black fashion doll branded with the Barbie name.

RB: In your documentary, you talk about the Clark doll experiment and Brown versus Board of Education. What can you tell me about that?

LAGUERIA DAVIS: Oh, yes. You know, I like to say, you know, it's all fun and games until we get to the, you know, Clarke Mami and Kenneth Clarke in the 1940s. You know, how adult has that kind of showed how black children at that time felt about themselves by introducing them to a black doll in a white doll and asking them, you know, certain questions, you know, which all is pretty and which ones are ugly and which one's bad. And, you know, through that test, what we saw was that, you know, most black children associated the black doll with being bad and ugly. And that study and what was found from it was used in the Brown versus Board of Education case to desegregate schools. And, you know, in our film were able to kind of re-imagine that doll test with children from today. And it's really, on one hand, really hopeful to see how the children are thinking about play and themselves imagined in it. And then on the other hand, there are there is still room for the progress and the work that is needed. We can see those cracks starting to come through, that foundation that they're building of for themselves around identity.

RB: Tanya, let me bring you back in here in terms of how Mattel evolved the Barbie brand over time to to as Larry has been talking about, to better reflect society, because it wasn't just about race. It became about other things, too.

TANYA LEE STONE: Yes. And it was really about career from the very beginning. So even in 1959 and 1960, there was the fashion doll, but there was also the fashion designer doll. There was the business executive doll. And so you can see that sort of career mindset reflected in the very earliest of dolls. And then, of course, you know, everybody has mentioned this probably before in other places, but astronaut Barbie in 1965 was, I think 17 years before Sally Ride was allowed to be in the space program. And the outfit itself in 1965, this is interesting to me, was very appropriately an astronaut outfit as opposed to a later eighties astronaut Barbie outfit, which really wasn't it was, you know, she looked like an aerobics instructor with a helmet on.

RB: Would be hard to go to space dressed like that.

TANYA LEE STONE: Exactly. I think what's been interesting about all of these innovations that they've made is sort of the the two steps forward, one step back. You know, it's like they've made a lot of progress and they've also made some missteps along the way. And I think that, you know, to their credit, over time, any any individual or group of people trying to make progress, if that's what you want to call it, is going to make some missteps at the same time. But they're pushing the needle forward a little bit anyway.

RB: Well, Lagueria, I don't know what this Brooklyn Barbie is. Tell me, tell me who is Brooklyn Barbie and and how she's different from the original black Barbie.

LAGUERIA DAVIS: Yes. And I think, you know, it's interesting in terms of during the time when it was aspirational and about vocations and employment that it felt like Barbie could be everything except black or Latin. And one narrative, it feels like progress if we move the needle slowly. And then on the marginalised end of it, it feels less like progress. And today we do have Brooklyn Barbie, which is a really interesting character that is now in the Barbie bursts as a part of their media cartoon. Right. They have kind of introduced as one of our doo wop says in our film, you know, Amalgamated Barbie into the media.

RB: What, Lagueria, what would you want Mattel to think about as it makes future Barbies? Because it is pushing itself, as you say, perhaps too slowly. But it's getting there.

LAGUERIA DAVIS: Yes, I would feel like as the children and our film pointed out, they are very much aware. And so the media tends to still skew towards Malibu. And the branding is still very much Malibu. And I think moving the needle forward would be discovering ways in which to move forward with creating the media first that is more inclusive in a very progressive way by having Brooklyn, Latin, X, Barbie and Asian Barbie be the hero of their own story.

RB: I want to ask both of you, before I let you go, if you're excited to see the film, Tanya.

TANYA LEE STONE: I am. I'm very excited, surprisingly so, to see the film, I think especially because I wasn't a Barbie fan growing up. But I'm really interested to see what Greta Gerwig has done with this, and I hear that there are a lot of Easter eggs for the historians and oh.

RB: Interesting, interesting. Lagueria,how about you?

LAGUERIA DAVIS: Oh, yes. Yeah. I am so excited to finally be able to see this film that everyone's talking about and even more excited to be able to be a part of the conversation, Have our film be a part of the conversation as well.

RB: Well, thank you both for being part of this conversation. It will help me go into the movie too, to have this bit of education behind me as as I go to watch it. Thank you both so much. Appreciate it.

LAGUERIA DAVIS: Yeah, Thank you.

TANYA LEE STONE: Thank you.

RB: Tanya Lee Stone is the author of The Good, The Bad and the Barbie. And Lagueria Davis is the writer and director of the documentary film Black Barbie. And later today on Commotion, celebrating the cinematic event of the summer, Barb and Heimer Day. Panellists will give the reviews of Greta Gerwig's Barbie and Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer and discuss how a fun comedic tribute to a beloved doll and a dark biopic about the inventor of the atomic bomb became strange bedfellows in the world of online meme. Some of them are very funny. Coming up after your regional update, in 1985, the Philadelphia police dropped a bomb on a group of black radicals known as MOVE. This story is the subject of the CBC podcast The Africa versus America. And in 90 seconds, we'll continue our presentation of it. I'm Rosemary Barton and you're listening to The Current.

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CBC podcast The Africas VS. America – Ep. 7, part 1

RB: I'm Rosemary Barton and you're listening to The Current. Throughout the summer, we're bringing you some of the CBC's best podcasts. We continue today with The Africas versus America. Here's part 1 of the final episode, "Elegy".

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: This is crazy. I'm back at the House of Correction, where I was born, trying to actually go in and be inside of it for the first time since I was born back in 1978. This is crazy. I'm excited. Like like I probably shouldn't be excited to go to prison. I'm excited to go inside.

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike Africa Jr. is touring the Philadelphia jail where his mother, Debbie, was held during the trial of the Move nine. She was taken here after the raid in 1978, along with the others.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: As long as they don't lock me in.

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike calls Debbie to help find his bearings.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: Okay. And you were all the way in the back on the left.

MATTHEW AMHA: For so long. This place was an abstraction.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: And this is what it would have been like in 1978.

GUARD: Basically, this format really hasn't changed.

MATTHEW AMHA: The jail was officially closed in 2020. So there are no inmates here today, But you can still get a sense of what life was like back then.

SOUNDCLIP

GUARD: You see, these are feeding windows. We don't want them to see who's getting the food.

MATTHEW AMHA: The heart of the facility is a cavernous rotunda.

SOUNDCLIP

GUARD: You come here to get your tray, and then on the other side of this will be the ABC side, A1 A2 to C1, to C2.

MIKE AFRICA JR.: So actual shape of this place?

GUARD: It's a wheel.

MIKE AFRICA JR.: So we're we're at the center of the wheel now. Just knowing all of that history is here. People going through what they went through in here. So many people were beat here, so many women were hurt.

MATTHEW AMHA: The guard escorts him to an old wing of the prison called G-1. The paint is peeling off the walls, The cells are empty, there are tarnished. Steel doors all swung wide open.

SOUNDCLIP

GUARD: Two to three, to a cell.

MIKE AFRICA JR.: Can you imagine this?

MATTHEW AMHA: Imagine this at the very rear of G1. There are a few cells used to separate inmates from the general population.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: We're going to go all the way down to the to the one she was in. She says she was at the one all the way, probably at the end.

MATTHEW AMHA: It's the corner. So the last one on the wings.

MIKE AFRICA JR.: So these are the cots.

MATTHEW AMHA: The cell is this claustrophobic closet of a room. Two metal bed frames pretty much fill it. Mike lies down on one, his dreads now stretching across it, his eyes fixed on the ceiling. This is the room where his life began.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: It's crazy. Trying to imagine my mom in here and having a baby in here.

MATTHEW AMHA: He gets up and walks over to one of the windows.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: If she wanted air, this is what she would have done if she got to windows. Most of the cells have one but being, this is a corner. So she would have had to having a baby in a prison and then knowing that at some point they going to come for you.

MATTHEW AMHA: This visit would punctuate a life spent grappling with prisons, a life spent in search of a tangible way to unmoored the system from its bearings to liberate himself and others, even if it meant betraying old move orthodoxies. I'm Matthew Amha, and this is the final chapter of The Africa vs. America, Chapter Seven: Elegy

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: I don't remember the first time I learned that I was born in prison.

MATTHEW AMHA: Three days after Mike was born in that cell on September 15th, 1978, he was taken away by the guards and placed in state care.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: I remember my cousin referencing it. I remember him saying teasing, like kind of in a joking way, saying you were born in prison. You were born a jailbird. Things like that. But I don't...

MATTHEW AMHA: Technically, Mike is a penal orphan, but his grandmother, Laverne, is awarded custody, and at this point she's still a member of MOVE. So he's raised as a child of the organization where biological bonds didn't much matter. So there's never any shortage of family, but it's also confusing.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: The first memory of who I thought my mother was was when my aunt, all the kids to call her mom. And she was the one taking care of me. I was in Virginia with her from when I was born. I didn't know a difference between her kids and other kids in the organization or in the family. So when she said, I want you all to start calling me mom immediately, I said, Okay, Mom. And she corrected me and said, I'm not your mother. I'm I'm their mother, but I'm not your mother. So that kind of threw me into this kind of personal investigation. Like, who is my mother, then?

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike thought his mother could have been Birdie's mom, Rhonda, because of the way she loved on him.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: I have a picture of her holding me, and I got as big a smile and laughing on my face. Being a community kid, you know, you're with different people. But some of them were more affectionate than others. I didn't ask anyone immediately because I was too ashamed that I didn't know. But later I asked what was the relationship? I found out who my actual mother was in a prison trip, and my grandmother took me to see her at Muncie State Prison.

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike was about five years old.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: I remember the look, the seeing her for the first time. I remember her coming out of that room while we were sitting in the waiting room. When you go to the prison and you're at the prison, you see the different people coming out of the prison into the visiting room. I remember looking at them thinking, That's not her. And then when she came out, I remember thinking, I hope that's her. I hope that's her because the way she looked. And then I think one of my aunts said to Debbie, your mother. And it was like I already kind of felt it. But I was locked on her. My eyes were locked on her. So it was just like when he said, That's your mother. I was like, okay, cool. You know?

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike's father, Mike Africa senior, was being held at Homes Brett Prison at the time.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA SR.: Debbie's mother, Laverne, and her sister Sharon, had came up to the prison to visit and they had Mike with them maybe six months old. I'm tapping on the window like hey man, hey Mike. And he was just looking, you know.

MATTHEW AMHA: It was three years before they saw one another again.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA SR.: I was glad to see him. And then the next year again, Laverne had brought him up. And this time we had a talk and I asked him what his name was. I said, You know, my name is Michael. I said, You know why we have the same name? And he said, Why? I said, Because you're my son. And he gave me a big hug. And he asked me, can you sneak home with us?

MIKE AFRICA JR.: And he said, I can't I can't come home. And I said, Why not? I said, we walked right in the door and when we leave, we're going to walk out the door. Why can't you just walk out when we walk out? And he said, I can't. And he changed the subject. And we started talking about other stuff. And I hugged him and he hugged me. And I don't know if he was crying, but I think he might have been you know, my dad don't really show emotions like that. You know.

MIKE AFRICA SR.: It's hard going back that day. But Mike has always. Been a very loyal and loyal son.

MATTHEW AMHA: Even after Mike learned who his parents were, where they were, he didn't fully comprehend why his parents were incarcerated until he was a teenager, and only then because he overheard another move member talking about his mother's hundred year sentence.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: I was shocked. And I think that's when I first started kind of I started to kind of set into me what was really going on. It was depressing and it was it was always traumatizing. I mean, how do you tell a kid your mom's got 100 years in prison? He's young, you know what I'm saying? Like she got a 30 year minimum. By the time she get home, you'll be a parent.

MATTHEW AMHA: But Mike was a kid suffering from a kind of natal alienation, and he grew a bit obsessed.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: I started counting the days, going back and looking at calendars, making sure I got all the years to see how long, how many days they'd actually been in prison. I started looking for pictures of them together because they got together when they were real young. I mean, they went to prison when they were 21 and 22. So there weren't even a lot of even pictures of them where they were just together. I don't have any pictures of my dad doing anything or in street clothes. So it was like that's the kind of stuff that all came to my mind, like the time when I need them. I don't have them by the time they actually come out. If they do, I will need them, like the things that I need them to help me with, the people that I need them to protect me from. I need them now. And they're not here.

MATTHEW AMHA: On the day of the bombing, Mike was living just a few miles away from Osage Avenue and his grandmother, Laverne house. He was six years old and he says he first heard of the bombing from neighborhood kids.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: Yeah. Looking right over there. You can see the smoke look that way. You could see all the smoke. It looked like the whole sky was black.

MATTHEW AMHA: He remembers his aunts huddled around the television.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: They were sitting there watching the news, watching it happen on the news, crying.

MATTHEW AMHA: In the wake of the bombing. Mike was forced to grow up quickly, both of his parents in prison. The specter of the authorities, including former Mayor Wilson Goode, constantly hanging over him.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: I remember it always felt like things were going to get bad. I always remember feeling uncomfortable. There was always this looming feeling of danger. All the time. The sound of sirens was terrifying. If you want to scare a MOVE child, tell them something like. Wilson Goode's around the corner. That was the boogie man for me. That was the terror.

MATTHEW AMHA: And that terror he suffered from in his childhood. He turned it into purpose.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: I wasn't a kid. I was a full grown revolutionary, bro. Like, I wasn't. I wasn't even playing like I was. We ready to change the world mother fucker like it is no time to be playing games. Is too much work to do.

MATTHEW AMHA: Move founder John Africa was among the 11 people killed in the bombing on Osage Avenue. And once he was gone, the organization would never really be the same. With so many founding members now dead or in prison MOVE assumed a quieter presence, at least for a time. The lone adult survivor of the bombing, Ramona Africa served seven years in prison for conspiracy to riot, but once she was released in 1992, she began canvasing the country as a representative of move. And she took Mike Jr. With her. They visited campuses like harvard and UCLA. Talking about John Africa, the MOVE, lifestyle, the story of the bombing, but also what they consider to be the false imprisonment of the MOVE 9. Mike was only 14 years old when they first started out, but for a kid with little formal education, these speaking tours were like an unofficial grad school program.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: She would take me to these meetings and sometimes the people would ask questions. What do you think about that? And I would be like, I don't know what you're talking about. Do I don't know anything about it? Forensics, this, that and the other. I don't know what you're talking about.

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike begin gaining confidence learning speaking up so much so that eventually Ramona entrusted him as her stand in.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: Ramona Okay, yeah. So then maybe she couldn't make a meeting and she sent me and that just kind of escalated.

MATTHEW AMHA: As the years went on, Mike began accumulating relevant evidence from the move. Nine case, hundreds of boxes full of old tapes and records, transcripts from the trial, as well as police witness statements. A treasure hunt for any morsel of information or evidence that might help exonerate his family. They didn't share what they found with the MOVE 9 visiting whomever they could get prison access to. Mike found the work addicting.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: And I remember the person helping with it and he would say, read every document. It doesn't matter if you have to read the entire Philadelphia Sunday paper to find that one line. Anything that somebody might say about move, read it. Look for the needle in the haystack. Find it. And if you can't find it in this paper, find it in another paper. I wound up doing that stuff for over 25 years. Never give up, right? We worked on that case looking for that needle in the haystack.

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike's initial motivation was to free his parents and the other MOVE 9. But John Africa's guidelines and MOVE ideology also contained teachings on what we might today refer to as prison abolition. And for Mike, growing up in West Philly, the folly of mass incarceration was all around him. The fact that both prisons and the police had emanated out of chattel slavery was not lost on him. These connections he was making would only deepen his commitment to free his parents. Over the next couple of decades, he'd build a mountain of evidence in the MOVE 9 case. But the city didn't seem much interested in hearing it. So a second generation MOVE. Maybe it was time for some fresh ideas.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: MOVE is not about stagnation. MOVE is about movement. So I had to activate that and use that to activate others. I remember John Afrika said, do what's necessary. That's a big thing in the organization. He said, do what's necessary. Anybody that wants to help us do what we're doing, we welcome them. Anybody.

MATTHEW AMHA: These fresh ideas included a departure from what some had considered to be MOVE's conventional wisdom. Doing what was necessary, as John Africa had said, demanded that Mike use all tools available to him, even if it meant using the system itself.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: And I called meetings in the organization. What's our strategy? And I took different investigators to the prisons to see the people so that they could talk to them. How do we approach this situation? Are we going to go the legal court route or are we going to go the parole route? Are we going to go to litigation? Are we going to go civil? What are we going to do? I found different lawyers. Different lawyers found me, and we talked about it and we strategized about it, and we went to those prisons.

MATTHEW AMHA: In addition to his work with outside counsel. Mike decided it had finally come time to sit down with former Mayor Wilson Goode, making him the first in the family to do so since the bombing.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: And it was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life. The absolute without question, the hardest thing that I ever had to do in my life. I had to sit across a table from Wilson Goode. And I had to talk to him and I had to listen to him and I had to interact with him. And that was the hardest thing I ever had to do because it felt like betrayal.

MATTHEW AMHA: The MOVE organization held Goode responsible for what had happened, but to them Goode hadn't yet accepted responsibility. Instead, he'd gone silent while 11 people were killed and 9 others sat in prison. But whatever Mike says Goode offered his profuse apologies in that much like in our interview with him years later, Goode said he believed the move known to be innocent.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: All along I spoke to my family and I told them that wasn't Goode, he wants to help get them moving. I know he said that he is sorry for what he did. He is sorry for what he participated in. He is sorry that people died. He's sorry that our people spent time in prison. And he wants to help get them out. And I went back to the quote, John Africa said, anybody that wants to help us do what we're doing, we welcome them. And for that reason, I was willing to do whatever I had to do to get my people out of prison.

MATTHEW AMHA: And so in 2008, after more than a decade of organizing and compiling evidence after testimonies from the former mayor of Philadelphia, Wilson Goode, and letters from prominent politicians, celebrities and former prison guards. In addition to the list of achievements the MOVE 9 had accumulated while in prison, Mike's efforts had culminated in the hope that their first parole hearing might end in freedom, but they weren't so fortunate. Between 2008 and 2018, Debbie Africa, along with others in the MOVE 9 were repeatedly denied parole. Every time every denial was devastating to Mike Jr.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: When I was a young kid, I mean, I've been waiting for them to come home from all my life, right? So when I was a young kid, I used to like when they would go court cases and like all that kind of stuff. I would always be hopeful. I used to think, like them. Maybe they'll come home and I'll have a little brother or sister or something. I would always get let down. There was a time when I thought that they will possibly come out feet first.

MATTHEW AMHA: By 2018, Debbie had been denied parole eight times in total. In the late spring of 2018. Mike and his wife Robin are in a public park with the family when they get a phone call. It's Debbie, and she's a month and a half shy of her 40th year in prison.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBIN AFRICA: (Sreaming) Oh Debbie coming home!

MATTHEW AMHA: Robin leans in closely and hands the phone to Mike. He's sitting on a park bench beside his eldest son, who is squeezing his dad tightly around the waist. Debbie's finally been granted parole. Mike, is joy struck.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: Okay. All right.

DEBBIE AFRICA: My name is Debbie Africa. And as you know.

MATTHEW AMHA: Just a few days later, Mike and Debbie call a press conference.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE AFRICA: Most of you might know that I've been in prison almost 40 years.

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike and Debbie are seated together at a table, both in T-shirts bearing the photo of Delbert, taken in the moments before his beating at the hands of police. The local media is here, too. You can see all the microphones just in front of them on the table. Mike's holding his young daughter, Leah on his lap.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE AFRICA: I was released on Friday, Saturday, Saturday, and I still don't think I've actually caught up with my emotions on how happy it makes me feel seeing my family and being, I should say, united with my son because I've never been with them. I had him in my prison cell when I was in the House of Correction, and this is the first time we've ever been together and all those years.

MATTHEW AMHA: Behind them are nine photographs. Photos of the MOVE 9, including Mike's father, Mike Senior.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE AFRICA: And although if I felt excited and overwhelmed and happy to see everybody that came up to pick me up on Saturday, I still felt incomplete. It shouldn't have been the fact that I left prison and my sister Janine and Janet did it because we came in on the same charges. But when it came time to get out of prison, they didn't do that the same. And so it's still a bittersweet victory for me.

MATTHEW AMHA: As for Mike Jr., he's also clear that the work has only just started.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE AFRICA JR.: The fight don't stop just because one person is getting out. Got a whole lot of other people to get out too. Janet and Janine, Eddie, Dell, Chuck. Here we come. And of course, after all these years, we can't forget about my dad. I tell you, my dad is my best friend. Really? Like, you know, people say that, you know, my dad's my hero and all that shit. Well, you know, my dad's with me ever since we were. I was a kid. We've been bonded ever since. Ever since he been my best friend. Ever since.

DEBBIE AFRICA: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, God.

MATTHEW AMHA: Four months later, in October of 2018, Mike Africa Sr., is released too. The families gathered at Mike Africa Jr.'s home. As soon as Mike Senior walks through the front door, he and Debbie race to one another. They embrace.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE AFRICA: Why is everybody so quiet.

MATTHEW AMHA: Mike Sr.'s Head is tucked into Debbie's shoulder and he finally comes up for air. They share a kiss and then just stare at one another. They have seen each other just once since 1978.

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CHILD: I've been waiting for this for a whole year!

MIKE AFRICA JR.: Yea, she said that all the way. You know how many years I waited...

MATTHEW AMHA: Long time Philadelphia reporter Lynn Washington said to me that Debbie and Mike Senior had a Shakespearean love story. And when I tell that to Mike Jr.

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MIKE AFRICA JR.: I'm telling you, listen, let me tell you something about that love. Fuck Bonnie and Clyde. We bond what's that mother fucker's name? Romeo. Romeo and who? Fuck them. That love that my parents got is something on another fucking level. My dad loves my mom, and that shit is magical. I never seen anything like it.

MATTHEW AMHA: Six months after Mike Sr.'s release in April 2019, he and Debbie were married in a ceremony just outside of Philadelphia.

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MIKE AFRICA SR.: This is not just a reunion for us. This is also a stand that we're taking to try to work to get the other people out, too. So that's constantly on our minds because Eddie has kids that he needs to feel this same thing from and so does the other people. So everybody has family and.

MATTHEW AMHA: And over the course of the next few years, the floodgates would open. First came Janine and Janet Africa, who were granted parole a year after Debbie in May of 2019 and one month after them. Out came Eddie Africa.

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EDDIE AFRICA: This is something else here....

MATTHEW AMHA: Brother Delbert Africa followed. He's greeted outside the gates of the state prison by a large welcome party that includes his daughter, Yvonne, and move veteran Pam Africa.

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UNKNOWN SPEAKERS: Breathe that air. Breathe that air! (indistinct)

MATTHEW AMHA: In some ways. Delbert Africa has been frozen in time with his arms stretched to the sky as the police beat him unconscious. But he's so much more than what was done to him. He's been described to me as the embodiment of everything moved, stood for incorruptible, unbowed, physically strong, and a natural leader. As John Africa receded from public view. It was Delbert who was subject to so much of the media scrutiny concentrated on the group he was who led the organization through their porch speech in 1976. And he was on the front lines of most clashes with police. More than any other of the MOVE 9 It was Delbert who carried the passage of time on his face.

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DEBBIE AFRICA: Yeah. Oh, I'm crying. Yeah.

DELBERT AFRICA: Ah... me and, you both.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh, wow. How beautiful is this?

MATTHEW AMHA: He still had the energy and commitment all the same. But this was an older man, clearly weathered by his experience in prison. His latter years were marked by visits to the prison infirmary.

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DELBERT AFRICA: One of the nurses always used to come in there. She called herself, being nasty, very busy. Didn't anybody kicking? And I'm busy. Hell, yeah. I'm kicking, I'm kicking all right.

DEBBIE AFRICA: All right. All right.

MATTHEW AMHA: Dell was a survivor. Delicia Africa was his daughter, and he watched from prison as the state bombed her home and left her to die in the ensuing fire. He would also serve more than six years in solitary confinement for refusing to cut his dreadlocks.

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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 41 years srong faith in God, That's right.

MATTHEW AMHA: Delbert beats his chest as his welcome party hands him a sign with the words Long live John Africa scrawled across it. He then wipes his tears with a napkin.

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DELBERT AFRICA: Yeah, I like it a lot. I love that. I love that.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Long live John Africa. That's right.

DELBERT AFRICA: Yes.

MATTHEW AMHA: Delbert then describes his final moments in prison.

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DELBERT AFRICA: I was telling them brothers that would notorious inside Dallas prison. Connally Harp. They came by. We we hugged. We. We had a meeting and it was beautiful. You know, they came by and told me how much. How much they appreciate it. You know, the years it was, it was deep. It was deep 42 years old, as they had said. I hated to see them still there, you know? But it's good to be home. It's good to be with good family, with friends. And put that that activity, that prison activity behind. Okay.

MATTHEW AMHA: Delbert had plans for what this next phase of his life was supposed to look like. This was supposed to be a new beginning, but also a continuation of the work Mike Africa Jr. had committed himself to.

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DELBERT AFRICA: I told Captain Hook, I see. I'll be back to free somebody else.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That's right. All right. All right. Oh, man.

MATTHEW AMHA: Back in Philadelphia, Delbert is standing on a sidewalk with Janine and Janet wrapped in each of his arms. They pull their faces back, meet eyes and laugh, then hug again. Their cheeks touching. Then they walk arm in arm.

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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh, yes. Yes. We'll take it in a moment.

MATTHEW AMHA: Ramona Africa is here, too. Hunched over the walker she now uses to get around.

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DELBERT AFRICA: I only have done it.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Long live John Africa.

DELBERT AFRICA: It's been a battle.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That's right.

DELBERT AFRICA: It's been a battle. Ha ha! [indistinct chanting and chatter]

MATTHEW AMHA: The move. Nine spent decades of collective time in solitary confinement. Members say they were offered reduced sentences if only they would agree to disavow John Africa. But they exited prison all those decades later. Just as committed to the man they called the coordinator as when they went in.

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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: All right, Fred. All right. Now.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How could it be?

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That's right.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: [Indistinct chanting and chatter]

MATTHEW AMHA: And it was a happy moment, but it wasn't a happily ever after for the move family in so many ways. The release of the MOVE 9 was marked in the media as a story of resilience, a testament to progress and hope. For me, this framing has always felt like an invasion way of deodorizing the more complicated reality of their return. The reality of the price of freedom. Seven members of the MOVE 9 were released from prison between 2018 and 2020. Merle Africa died in prison in 1998. Phil Africa in 2015. Both of cancer. Debbie Africa's younger brother, Chuck Africa, arrested in 1978 at 19 years old, was the last of the MOVE 9 to be released. He got out in February of 2020, but he died 19 months later, also from cancer. And in the end, Delbert Africa wouldn't make it more than six months on the outside. He died at home of a kidney condition. He was 74 years old. As things stand now, the MOVE 9 are survived by just five.

RB: That was the CBC podcast The Africas versus America. We'll bring you the conclusion of the series tomorrow. The whole series is available on the CBC Listen App or wherever you get your podcasts. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. I'm Rosemary Barton. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Thursday July 20, 2023 Episode Transcript

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