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The Current Transcript for July 14, 2023

Host: Robyn Bresnaha

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Winnipeg search

Guests: Melissa Robinson, Chief Kyra Wilson, Dr. Kona Williams

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Search the damn landfills.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: The message was crystal clear, but so far, Manitoba's premier is not budging. First Nations leaders have asked the province to search a local landfill. They believe the remains of two murdered indigenous women may be there. We will hear from the cousin of one of those women who says the province's excuses not to search send the very worst of messages. That's coming up in just a moment. Also on today's program, the problem with BMI. The American Medical Association is pulling back on using the body mass index as a measure of health. We will speak to a Canadian doctor who says it's about time. That's coming up in 30 minutes. And fake it till you make it.

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I didn't not want to spend $150 on a pair of little Uggs. So instead I saw a dupe. Somebody posted these, they were so cheap too. Look how cute!

RB: Dupes stands for duplicate and dupe culture is all the rage online. We'll hear from those embracing it, but also from creators who say time to knock it off with the knockoffs. But we begin in Manitoba and the calls for the province to step up and search. I'm Robyn Bresnahan, sitting in for Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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In this space jurisdiction is a poisonous word that perpetuates the trauma that is levelled by your women and children. But I think the reaction that we've seen from our partner in Manitoba is one that makes any decision this summer logistically impossible. The federal government is willing to help. We're willing to play a role, a very important role in this. But the reality of where we're working is that the government can again nationalise the garbage dump or the waste disposal system of the city of Winnipeg.

RB: That was Crown-indigenous Relations Minister Mark Miller speaking about the Manitoba government's decision not to search a landfill just north of Winnipeg. The remains of two Indigenous women, Mercedes Myran and Morgan Harris, are suspected to be there. They are believed to be the victims of a serial killer. In response to the province's decision not to search the landfill, protesters have set up an encampment in front of another landfill. They have named it Camp Morgan. Melissa Robinson is the cousin of Morgan Harris. Melissa, good morning.

MELISSA ROBINSON: Good morning.

RB: How have you been thinking about your cousin over the past week?

MELISSA ROBINSON: It's been hard. You know, lots going on, lots of emotion and just, you know, the thought of of her having to remain there just, you know, is making me feel ill. And the rest of my family, we're we're just not all taking this well.

RB: Why is it important to you and to your family to have this landfill searched?

MELISSA ROBINSON: Because that's not a final resting place. You know, we we don't go in and bury loved ones in a landfill at a garbage dump. You know, they deserve a proper resting place. My nieces, you know, and and Morgan's two sons do not deserve to have to go sit at a landfill to pay their respects to their mom and to visit and and lay flowers. Like, it's. It's just wrong.

RB: This week, Manitoba's premier Heather Stefanson said, quote, My heart goes out to those individuals who have lost a loved one. But I'm also the Premier and we have to make very difficult decisions. How did that sit with you?

MELISSA ROBINSON: [Chuckles] I have lots to say about that. You know, she she comes across in the media and with her statements as though she cares. You know, we got to sit down with her on July 5th. We're talking seven months after, you know, we got the news about Morgan and she came across as very cold. Showed no empathy whatsoever. Didn't treat us with any kind of respect and just tried to over talk us throughout the whole thing. You know, we we believe she had her mind made up from the beginning. You know, because when she was asked, you know, have you read have you read the feasibility study? Well, I just got it on my desk this morning. So she's made no efforts whatsoever, you know, to do anything about this.

RB: What message do you feel that the province's refusal to search this landfill? What message do you think that sends.

MELISSA ROBINSON: That we don't matter. Our indigenous women do not matter or indigenous people do not matter, and that if something like this is to occur again and we are dumped in in a landfill, that they won't bother to search for us, that they'll believe us there.

RB: How does that make you feel?

MELISSA ROBINSON: Angry. Very angry. I'm hurt. I'm tired of being second class citizen. You know, we matter as well. It shouldn't be the colour of your skin. You know, in regards to totem pole. You know, we should all be treated equally. And regardless of, you know. It's just. It's so upsetting, you know, thinking of it all. And. And to know that we have to beg and plead our government to go and retrieve our loved ones. I'm. I'm just appalled by all of this.

RB: Melissa, I hope you can stay on the line with us. We're going to bring somebody else into this conversation. Chief Kyra Wilson is from Long Island First Nation. She's in Winnipeg. Chief, good morning to you.

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Good morning.

RB: Manitoba's premier says that she's standing by this decision not to search the landfills. She's pointing to risks identified in a feasibility study done for the Assembly of Manitoba chiefs. Just take a listen to what she's had to say.

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This is about the safety of those individuals who would be conducting the search. I mean, the landfill is full of toxic waste and that is identified in the report. And in the report itself identified that there are safety risks and we are very concerned about that.

RB: What do you make of that reasoning, Chief?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Well, it's very much just an excuse as as Melissa mentioned, you know, she's just not showing any empathy, just does not care. You know, we've had experts that worked on the feasibility study. And as we previously mentioned, all of the risks are outlined on that report and how we're going to mitigate those risks. And not only that, there have been searches in landfills, you know, not only in other provinces as well as other countries. And, you know, this is not something new. So the excuse of not feeling like it's safe, it's ridiculous.

RB: We just heard from Melissa, who, of course, this is very personal for her because it is her cousin who is believed to be in one of those landfills. And she said it's not a final resting place. Why is this search important to you?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Well, you know, Morgan is also a family member of mine, but she's also very much a part of our community. You know, she's a member of Long Plain First Nation. And she's also, you know, a member of the Anishinaabe Nation. You know, she's she's got a connection to, you know, all of us first nations, people across Turtle Island, indigenous people. You know, she she has, you know, a lot of people that that love her and want to bring her home. And that's why we need to bring her home, because the landfill is not a proper burial for anybody.

RB: When you hear people say that it's logistically impossible, it could take years. It could cost millions of dollars. What do you make of that, Chief?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Well, you know, it it is a lot of money. But as we have stated in other interviews, that there is no price. You know, when it comes to a human being, We we need to be fair and we need to respect, you know, every single person. And, you know, when it comes to these two women or three women possibly, that are in the landfill, we we need to just at least try and we have the ability to do it and we know what needs to be done. We have the safety equipment. We know the process. We have all these plans in place. We just need all levels of government to come together.

RB: Do you feel any level of government is listening? I mean, you heard Federal Crown-indigenous Relations Minister Mark Miller call the province's decision heartless. I mean, what did you make of that?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: I actually was quite happy that he made that statement because it's it's very much a true statement when we're talking about the premier and the province of Manitoba. And I and I do believe that, you know, everyone is listening right now and watching. And, you know, whether it's the federal or the provincial or the municipal government, you know, we do have the eyes and ears of everyone right now. And what I see happening is that if you are not in support of bringing these women home, then you know, you're you're going to see and feel the hurt and the pain that a lot of people are feeling right now because, you know, three indigenous women are in the landfill. And and that's the reality right now we we are facing. So.

RB: Melissa, you're still with us, I hope, on the line when you hear governments say we are committed to reconciliation, how do you think about that, especially in the context of what's going on right now?

MELISSA ROBINSON: Then then prove it. You know, everyone's good at saying this and that. Well, you know, actions is is, you know what's going to prove it. So let's quit talking about this and let's get the work done. You know, they need to come together like like Chief Wilson said.

RB: You walked out of a meeting with the premier, Melissa. What was it? What was the final straw for you?

MELISSA ROBINSON: Well from the get go, like I said, to her entering the room and and, you know, you saw no, no kind of empathy in her eyes. It was just another meeting to her, you know, to sit across from a grieving family begging, begging to help, you know, begging for her help. And the final straw for me was her suggesting putting a monument there at Prairie Green on top of my cousin's deceased body. That was it for me. I thought. You know, I took that as a slap in the face and, you know, I had to get up and leave because I was about to say words.

RB: Melissa, what if the search does happen and the remains are never found? What would it symbolise for you that the search took place anyway?

MELISSA ROBINSON: I'm I'm confident they will be found. If you've read the study and we have really picked that thing right apart, they can be found and. And they will be found.

RB: Thank you both very much for joining me this morning. I really appreciate your time. And I'm very sorry for your sadness.

MELISSA ROBINSON: Thank you.

RB: Thank you. Melissa Robinson, the cousin of Morgan Harris and Chief Kyra Wilson is from Long Plane First Nation. Let's speak now to Dr. Kona Williams. She is a forensic pathologist and she serves as medical director of the Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathology at Health Sciences North, which is a regional hospital in Sudbury, serving northeastern Ontario. Dr. Williams, good morning.

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: Good morning.

RB: We just heard from Melissa, who said a landfill is no kind of resting place. How do you reflect on that?

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: I'd have to agree with that. You know, there's a long history in this country of indigenous people, particularly women, being treated in this way, and the disrespect in life and death with the remains being, you know, thrown in landfills is is heartbreaking and it shouldn't happen. So I absolutely agree with that statement.

RB: You have had experience looking for the remains found at sites of former residential schools. What have you heard from communities when you doing that work about why it is so important?

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: It varies with with different communities as to what it is that they would like us to do. Like our level of involvement in terms of recovering, potentially recovering any any remains of their loved ones through all this communication is is extremely important to make sure that they understand, you know, what everybody's job and what needs to be done in order to do what they ask. And then threaded through all of that is respect. And that has to come from the people who are doing the investigations and to ensure that if remains are recovered, that they're done respectfully. And not only are there, you know, the dead treated with respect, but also the living and surviving family members and their communities.

RB: When you are considering that respect, I mean, how are you thinking about that? How do you approach your job and how does it dictate what you do?

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: I mean, that's that's part of being not not just a physician and somebody who's doing this kind of work, but also with the history in the background that I have as a First Nations woman, understanding that, you know, respect hasn't always been reciprocal, not just from, you know, this country, but from the death investigation system. And that sort of understanding really allows me to do the work as hard as it is in order to give whoever whatever whoever my patient is and whatever their background, the respect that they deserve as as a physician, as a forensic pathologist and as a human being.

RB: The perspective of Manitoba's premier has been that it is too dangerous to search this particular landfill, that it could take years, it could cost a lot of money. What do you think when you hear her say that?

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: I mean, I'm not entirely sure of the specific circumstances of that particular landfill. You know, there's always risks excavating any site. However, she is absolutely right that this could take a very long time. Any of the sites that we're looking at for the residential school burials. You're looking at a lot of coordinated effort and a lot a long time. This isn't going to happen overnight. It can take months. It can take years to do it properly. And if human remains are found, obviously, that ups the ante quite a bit in terms of, well, you know, did we find all of the remains? Are there other remains that need to be recovered? Who are these people? There's lots and lots and lots of, you know, sort of like a coordinated effort. Things can get very complicated. Things can get very, very challenging for all members of the investigation, all members of the death investigation team specifically. So so it can, it is, it is complicated. But again, these are human beings. And again, that comes back to respect. We do need to respect, you know, people life and in death and in order to recover them. I think, you know, out of that kind of respect, you need to do it.

RB: And what would you say to someone if they were in front of you, Dr. Williams, and they said, well, it's going to cost millions of dollars. It could take years. The chances of finding remains is very low. I mean, how would you respond to them? How? Do you see that moral obligation to at least try?

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: Yeah, and that's what it boils down to. It is. It is a moral obligation to try. It is hard and it is costly. And but that's that is the nature of this kind of work. It is again, it boils down to respect the respect for human life and and respect for those people in death. And if they are in that landfill, we need to do whatever we can in order to get them back to their families because people don't belong in landfills. It's just to me that that's it. It sits very badly with me. It's it's not something I would want any of my family members to be left in the landfill. And no, nobody's family members should be relegated to, you know, death in a landfill. It's just not. It's not respectful.

RB: How do you see this work and the work you do as fitting in with the goal of reconciliation?

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: I mean, it's a bit, it's along the same lines of of residential schools where, you know, the children were buried and nobody, you know, they may be unknown. They may not be in the locations they were supposed to be. They're certainly not supposed to have graveyards at schools. So it's it's similar lines. And it's it stems from, you know, the sort of treatment of indigenous people, stems from this long history of, you know, residential school systems and seeing us as, you know, less and not worthy of of the kind of respect that every person in this country deserves. So it's, to me, it's it's similar. It's very similar. And, you know, the effort required to to recover these women shouldn't be any less.

RB: Just one last question for you and a bit of a personal one. If it's okay, I mean, what was your motivation for getting into this type of work?

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: Oh, it was you know, it's something that that I found interesting and challenging. But when I started to practice, that was one missing. And, you know, the missing and murdered Indigenous Women's and Girls inquiry started. And I'd already I'd always known that residential school burial sites were, you know, going to be part of what I did. I didn't think it was going to be that soon. But I feel like I owe it to my family. My dad went to residential school, my mom went to Indian Day school, and if it weren't for them and for, you know, their parents and their parents and, you know, generations back who sacrificed and went through horrible things in order for me to be here, I think I owe it to them to to do this kind of work.

RB: Dr. Williams, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

DR. KONA WILIIAMS: You're very welcome. Thank you. Okay. Take care. You too.

RB: Dr. KonaWilliams is a forensic pathologist. She serves as medical director of the Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathology at Health Services North in Sudbury. We did request interviews with the premier of Manitoba, Heather Stefanson, Winnipeg Police Chief Danny Smyth, and Crown-indigenous Relations Minister Mark Miller. None were made available. The CBC News is coming up next. And then we are back in six minutes time. I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you're listening to The Current.

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Dupes; Body mass index

Guests: Kate Cornick, Dr. Sonia Anand

RB: Hello, I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you're listening to The Current. Counterfeits and knockoffs are so 2019. Dupes are now dominating the fashion world. Dupe stands for Duplicate and they are all the rage on TikTok.

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Speaker 2: [Music]

VOICE 1: Do the best dupes. Absolutely. I am a dupe queen. If there's a dupe out there, I am on that dupe.

VOICE 2: Guys. Look at them. I just got back from the gym and perfect timing. Stanley Cup dupe.

VOICE 3: I do not want to spend $150 on a pair of little Uggs. So instead I saw a do. Somebody posted these. They were so cheap too.

VOICE 2: Look how. Cute I've given in. I thought the viral Skims dupe bodysuit. Guys, the videos were so convincing.

RB: Our producer Kate Cornick has been looking into the good, the bad and the ugly sides of dupe fashion and what dupes tell us about a generation's attitude towards brands, fashion and displays of wealth. Kate, Good morning.

KATE CORNICK: Morning, Robyn.

RB: Well, I used to be hip once, but I am totally new to dupes. So tell us, what's the difference between a dupe and a knockoff?

KATE CORNICK: Dupe is a Gen Z term for cheap products that look exactly like a brand-name product but are typically much cheaper. This could be anything from clothes to shoes to water bottles. And in the beauty world, dupes can also refer to cheaper products that have similar formulas to more expensive products. The difference is, is that no one is trying to hide their dupes. In fact, as you just heard, dupes and especially fashion dupes are being widely promoted on Tik Tok.

RB: Are they legal?

KATE CORNICK: So it's complicated and we'll get to that in a bit. But first, let me give you an idea of what dupe culture looks like. There are users who've built a following making these dupe videos, let's call them dupe influencers. Danielle Shaw is one of them on TikTok. She goes by Canadian Deal Finder. She is 31 and lives in Calgary and she has 45,000 followers. Some of her videos have hundreds of thousands of views. Here's one where she's sharing a Lululemon dupe.

[ac]

I have been on the market trying to find something Lulu quality as far as an eight-inch biker short goes, and I have found it on Amazon Canada and I wanted to share it with you guys. I actually ordered four different pairs. They come in so many different styles. You're going to live in these all summer long. Run, run and grab something.

KATE CORNICK: Danielle said that people go absolutely crazy to get something that looks brand name without paying that brand name price tag.

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People just started asking like, 'Hey, where did you get that? It looks like Lululemon. And I'm like, 'Actually, I found it on Amazon Canada. And instead of paying $100, I paid 20.' And the more people just started asking like, where, where, where — they were asking me to share links — I realized how big of a market there is for people that want to buy these things, and especially in today's economy, just can't afford them.

RB: Except for she bought four pairs so she actually spent $80. What else is going on here?

KATE CORNICK: Well, it seems like the fear of being judged for buying unbranded clothes or imitation products isn't really a factor anymore. Danielle explained that with dupes taking off, there is now permission to rave about your cheap finds without any shame.

SOUNDCLIP

Before, if you got something no name, it's like, 'Oh, you're poor, you can't afford that.' But in today's economy, with everyone kind of openly admitting the struggles and openly admitting where they get stuff, and then you see these bigger influencers and they're like, 'Yeah, I got this on sale for this price,' or 'I got it at this store.' Like, people shouldn't be shamed for not being able to afford a brand name or even just not wanting a brand name. If you can find something that's exact same quality but way less for the cost, why bother paying just for a label on what you're buying?

RB: Any sense of how popular dupes are?

KATE CORNICK: As of this week, the hashtag dupe on TikTok is tagged in videos with a whopping 4.8 billion views. Sara Kent is the chief sustainability correspondent of the Business of Fashion. That's an online magazine that covers the global fashion industry.

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We are being pushed products in a way that is in some ways more effective than any form of previous advertising, and it's a very addictive form social media where on a daily, even hourly basis we could see something new, be told that we should desire it, and now, because manufacturing moves so fast, we can get it the next day. And dupe culture has kind of taken advantage of that, seen this demand, that the result has been a dramatic increase in fake counterfeit goods.

KATE CORNICK: Now some dupes can be counterfeit, but a lot of dupes aren't. They're mimicking other companies popular products, but they're not trying to trick anyone to thinking they're the real deal.

RB: Well, how are the brands that are being duped, how are they responding to this?

KATE CORNICK: Lululemon has actually tried to fight the dupe trend in their own right. In May, they hosted an event in Los Angeles where you could grab a pair of their A-line leggings if you swapped in your dupe version. Now these retail for $98 Canadian before tax and those who braved the hours long line got the real deal for free.

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VOICE 1: I feel super happy with it because these are super soft and I know they're really long lasting in comparison.

VOICE 2: Our dupe leggings definitely didn't live up to the expectation that we thought it was always pilling super uncomfortable and just didn't last. But the Loulou A-line leggings are so much more flexible, comfortable and weightless.

KATE CORNICK: And as you can tell, we're obsessed. So as you can hear, there was a huge success. Half of the thousands of people who turned up were new customers, and more than half were under the age of 30. But time will tell if consumers can be convinced to spend $100 on leggings instead of going for a dupe.

RB: We've all heard that saying you get what you pay for. I mean, how does the quality compare? Are dupes usually more disposable because they're cheaper?

KATE CORNICK: There is such a range out there and you can find items that appear to be carbon copies. I went to the Eaton Centre here in Toronto to compare a few products. At AirAsia. They carry this hugely popular form fitting romper. It sells for $79 and is made with 82% nylon and 18% elastane. Now a few stores down at the retailer Dynamite, they're selling virtually the exact same thing with the same blend of materials. Their version $20 cheaper. And then if you turn to Amazon, you can find a dupe version for $25, but it's made from polyester and spandex.

RB: Sounds like this could be a boon for fast fashion.

KATE CORNICK: Oh, it has been. Many products being promoted are from Zara, Amazon, Canada and H&M even has a tab on their site called Tik Tok made me do it. You also have the Chinese based e-commerce sites like Shein and DHgate that are booming. We know that fast fashion comes at a cost from the environment to the people who are actually making them, who are often wildly underpaid.

RB: Well, there's been a big push to get fashion companies to be more transparent. Is that happening?

KATE CORNICK: Not as quickly as you would imagine. Sara Kent from Business. The fashion explained that many companies, including higher end brands, are moving at a faster pace, pushing out more products. That's raising questions around what we even define as fast fashion. And Sara says those higher end companies aren't very transparent.

VOICE 2: Most fashion companies couldn't tell you where their products are manufactured beyond their first tier, which is where goods are cut and sewn. The industry has an extremely opaque supply chain and often works on a model of subcontracting where the brand will negotiate with one supplier or an agent to manufacture their products. But then where those goods are actually produced could be in a network of factories related to the original place that was negotiated with, which makes it very difficult to monitor and understand whether products are being made in a way that is ethical and responsible.

KATE CORNICK: This is a longstanding issue within the fashion industry, and that isn't to say that fast fashion companies aren't doing the same. They just have adapted different strategies.

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Because they've been under so much scrutiny for so long, are actually often more transparent and more sophisticated in how they talk about issues related to social welfare and the environment than many companies that might operate in a higher price point.

KATE CORNICK: But Sara Kent says that transparency comes with limitations when the supply chain is so complicated.

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With dupe culture specifically, often these products are coming from unnamed and unknown manufacturers. So the degree of opacity is even greater. And so you remove the thin layer of accountability that exists with any brand that is part of a publicly listed company, and move into a realm of an unregulated free-for-all.

RB: Kate, We've talked about some of the bigger fashion chains. What about smaller independent brands? How are they responding to dupe culture?

KATE CORNICK: I'll give you an example. Canadian designer Mary Young has been burned by dupe fashion. Late last year, a customer reached out to her saying that Zara was selling one of her bras on their website. She goes to check it out and bam, she says she sees her Kendi bra, a design she released in 2018.

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VOICE 1: They basically copied it to a tee, so it wasn't a full knock-off like it used to be, where they would take inspiration from our design and tweak it a little bit. This was 100% the exact same bra, the exact same fit, the exact same product description, and it was only $30 less than what ours is.

KATE CORNICK: Mary even has screenshots of when she says Zara was selling this dupe bra. I did reach out to Zara for comment on Mary's allegations and didn't hear back.

RB: So what did Mary do after this was brought to her attention?

KATE CORNICK: She went to Tik Tok and she shared her story and within a couple of days, she said Zara had removed the product from its website. She says that was a big win for her.

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As a small business and as an independent designer, to me that's success, because they know that they've been caught and they've decided to remove that product from their website and stop selling it. Because there is no copyright or trademarks when it comes to design in fashion, there's no way to protect your design. So there was nothing I could do legally in that situation.

KATE CORNICK: You asked about the legality of this earlier. Well, in Canada and beyond, fashion isn't well protected by legal copyright. For one, under the law, the vast majority of clothing is considered utilitarian, so it's deemed a necessity and not protected by copyright. On top of that, if an article is produced more than 50 times, then that design can't be protected by copyright either. When it comes to designs being duped and mass produced creators are on their own. Here's Sarah Kent again.

SOUNDCLIP

Spending lots of money on legal fees to try and take a brand to task for ripping off your designs is likely to be a frustrating and potentially ruinous path to nowhere. I've heard examples where dupes have been taken down but reappeared a few weeks later, so there really isn't a good recourse for creatives in the industry. It's a big problem and there isn't a good answer to it.

RB: Right. And if Zara can sell the same exact product with the exact same material for $30 less. How is Mary pitching her product?

KATE CORNICK: She says the big difference is how it is made. Her products are ethically and sustainably produced in Montreal, and she also says she pays her seamstresses a living wage. Mary said the dupe fiasco gave her a chance to educate people about what goes into her products to justify the higher price point. But despite that, Mary said, this did come as a blow.

SOUNDCLIP

You have to be pretty motivated to continue doing this, especially when maybe a design's knocked off. And it can feel very frustrating and limiting to my personal success, my brand success, when a company of that size just basically picks up our design and runs with it and no one knows where it came from. And it can be really hard on a small business in terms of just sticking with why they're doing it and staying within that, you know, moral and ethical code of doing things differently and having a bigger focus on how the garments or the products are made. It can feel like, 'Well why am I, you know, working so hard at doing things properly if no one cares at the end of the day?'

RB: She wrote about that. No one cares at the end of the day. I mean, what kind of conversations are being had on social media about this?

KATE CORNICK: At the same time that dupe fashion is exploding online, there is also this trend of influencing. These are videos that tell viewers what they shouldn't buy. Michelle Skidelsky makes these videos. She's 21 years old. She lives in Ottawa and she feels that videos are fuelling overconsumption. And given the audience of TikTok, which skews younger, there is a generation being influenced by dupes and so much more, even when they don't need these products.

SOUNDCLIP

I've definitely been easily influenced and seen something on TikTok and seen like one video review and been like, Well, that's it. That's going to be the thing that changes my life. I should probably buy it. And I wish before I had bought some of those things that someone would have told me, like maybe think about it for a second and think about how easily you're willing to spend money based on one review you saw online. And actually, since I started making the influencing videos, I also like, really curbed my shopping habit.

KATE CORNICK: Michelle has racked up 9.1 million views on Tik Tok and nearly 178,000 followers.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm really I'm nothing if not a hater. There are so many things that I see online, that I think 'Are they really as good as they say they are? Because you're making it seem like it's really good. But how do I know?' And having tried out so many of those products, I know that they're actually not as good as people say they are. So I really was just happy to spread that message so that people could avoid making the same mistakes that I did.

KATE CORNICK: Now, Michelle says that along with dupe videos, she feels that influencers are putting pressure on young people to live these beautiful, curated, aesthetically pleasing lives. And as a student, that is just unattainable.

RB: How does she see the appeal of dupes?

KATE CORNICK: Michelle brought up something really important. She said Plus-size people can find trendy clothes in their sizes on sites like Shein when they might have trouble finding them in brick and mortar stores. And again, they're cheaper.

SOUNDCLIP

We really can't ignore the appeal of fast fashion in that for someone who doesn't have a lot of money, of course you're going to want to go to H&M and get a pair of pants for $13, instead of dropping $150 on a pair of pants at Aritzia. Like, of course, that appeal is natural. And so when people kind of speak out against fast fashion, I almost feel like they're standing on this moral high ground that doesn't necessarily exist.

RB: So where does this leave smaller designers or sustainable fashion companies that are in direct competition with these fast fashion giants?

KATE CORNICK: Well, they're having a hard time keeping up. Right now, deep fashion is a thriving industry. But despite having her designs stolen, Mary Young sees this moment as a chance to rethink your shopping habits and also your values.

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I think there is a lot more opportunity to support independent designers, small brands, and also not encourage the overconsumption that we've really been forced into the past couple of years. When you purchase less, you can start to purchase better — and just ask more questions and hold different brands accountable for how they're producing things. I think consumers actually hold all the power and we often forget that.

KATE CORNICK: But in the meantime, Dupe culture isn't going anywhere.

RB: Kate, thank you for bringing us the story.

KATE CORNICK: Thank you, Robyn.

RB: Kate Cornick is a producer here at The Current. I'm Robyn Bresnahan, and you're listening to The Current. For decades, doctors have used the body mass index or BMI to assess people's health. It is calculated by dividing a patient's weight in kilograms by height in metres squared. But for years there has been a growing chorus calling for the BMI to be scrapped because it's an imperfect way to measure body fat. Last month, the American Medical Association put out a policy advising caution when using it. Dr. Sonia Anand is a vascular medicine specialist and professor in the Department of Medicine at McMaster University. She holds a Canada Research chair in Ethnic diversity and cardiovascular disease. Doctor, good morning.

DR. SONIA ANAND: Good morning.

RB: First of all, how do you view the body mass index?

DR. SONIA ANAND: The body mass index has some utility. It does help at a population level. Divide groups of people into, you know, lower weight, average weight, overweight and obesity. But at the individual level, it is an imperfect measure of fat or adipose tissue.

RB: What's problematic about it?

DR. SONIA ANAND: BMI combines measuring the weight of other components, such as your muscle tissue, your bone mass. So you can have an individual who is smaller stature with more adipose tissue, who has the same body mass index as someone who's tall, lean and muscular. So that difference does not allow us to differentiate between someone who has too much adipose tissue in the wrong location compared to someone who is fine and doesn't need to worry about that.

RB: And can you spell that out even further? I mean, what are the implications of that? What kinds of things does BMI miss?

DR. SONIA ANAND: So when I talk about adipose tissue in certain locations, I'm really talking about what is known as abdominal obesity. And when individuals have excess adipose tissue in the centre of the abdomen that is associated with certain risk factors for cardiovascular disease such as type two diabetes, elevated cholesterol, elevated blood pressure. So if we miss measuring that, we may miss indicating to an individual that they have risks of other diseases.

RB: According to the American Medical Association. BMI is primarily based on data that's collected from previous generations of non-Hispanic white populations. So what does that meant for patients who come from diverse backgrounds?

DR. SONIA ANAND: It means that we have different thresholds of BMI to define at risk individuals and communities and what that means. And my own research has demonstrated this is where we may say an individual has a normal BMI at 25 if they're white European origin, that actually would be too high and above normal for an individual who is of South Asian origin, Chinese origin, indigenous, etc.. So we have found that non-white ethnic groups have lower BMI cut-offs that are associated with risk factors.

RB: How often is BMI still being used by medical professionals here in Canada?

DR. SONIA ANAND: It is still used commonly. It is a measure that is entrenched in many of our guidelines in entry into clinical trials in determining who may receive weight loss surgery or medications. So it is quite entrenched in the medical system. Part of that is history. Part of that is it's relatively easy to calculate and I therefore think BMI will remain in our system. But what I and others have advocated for is the addition of a waist circumference measure so that we can identify individuals who have that risky adipose tissue.

RB: This is something that you've kind of been yelling from the rooftops about for about 20 years, saying that BMI is an imperfect tool. How frustrating has that been for you that it's still being used?

DR. SONIA ANAND: You know, it's it's interesting. In my own clinical practice where I do see a lot of ethnically diverse individuals. The waist measurement is like a vital sign. It is frustrating when I receive a referral from an outside physician saying that my patient has a normal body mass index, so is therefore normal when in fact they have abdominal obesity. So I do try and advocate through the Heart Stroke Foundation when I give community talks for people to think about that idea of apple shaped obesity versus pear shaped obesity in the apple shaped obesity, sometimes I refer to that as our Canadian tire that we need to be aware of that and signal that we may be at risk for certain cardiovascular risk factors and get in to get our blood tests measured for those.

RB: And now no one will ever look at a Canadian tire the same way when they pass it. But but what you're saying is that abdomen fat can be a risk factor for conditions like diabetes and disease. But but by default, are you saying that hip and thigh fat is is less associated with health issues?

DR. SONIA ANAND: That's a great question, and I am saying that. If you're an individual where you have your excess fat deposited around the Glutaeal region, the hip region, as opposed to the central region, that is a protective distribution of fat. So that's a good thing. Unfortunately, individuals who have more of their fat around the middle, that is a risk they and certain ethnic groups are more likely to have abdominal obesity. So, you know, people originate from India is one group and I've particularly focussed in my research in this population. And for sure, we see small statured individuals, individuals you may look at and say, well, they're not overweight, but when we use the tape measure, we can see they're above the normal cut-offs and in fact have risk factors for diabetes, high cholesterol and heart disease.

RB: How do you see all of this conversation fitting into a wider conversation about body positivity, health, that any size that you don't have to be teeny tiny to be healthy or strong, that there are plenty of people in there are very high profile advocates like Lizzo, who says that she is strong, she does concerts every night. And, you know, she's really pushing back against this whole idea that skinny is strong for sure.

DR. SONIA ANAND: I think, you know, I agree with this. And I think that pop culture has really influenced individuals, especially women, to aspire to be, you know, as thin as possible. And really what we're concerned about from a health perspective is your overall health. And there are individuals who may be at a higher BMI who, in fact, when you measure all things related to health, have perfectly normal measures. They're not affected by being higher weight. Those individuals should continue on with their, you know, healthy, active lifestyle as they are and not try and actively lose weight.

RB: Dr. Anad, it was really good to talk to you today. Thank you very much for your time.

DR. SONIA ANAND: Thank you very much.

RB: Dr. Sonia Anand is a professor in the Department of Medicine at McMaster University. She also holds a Canada research chair in Ethnic diversity and cardiovascular disease. Coming up after your regional update, we will continue our presentation of the CBC podcast, The Africas versus America. It's the true story of how the Philadelphia police dropped a bomb on a group of black radicals in 1985. That is coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you're listening to The Current.

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Africas vs America - ep. 4

RB: I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you're listening to The Current. Throughout the summer we're bringing you some of the CBC's best podcasts. We continue today with The Africas versus America. Here's Episode 4: "The Commissioner's Gambit"

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MATTHEW AMHA: So where is MOVE house in relation to where we are now?

LINN WASHINGTON: We're standing directly across from what was the MOVE compound. The MOVE compound was two, three-storey Victorian houses – 307, 309 North 33rd Street.

MATTHEW AMHA: I’m in Powelton Village with Linn Washington, where MOVE’s first headquarters was located about a decade before the police dropped a bomb on their home on Osage Ave. Today, Linn works as a professor and journalist. He’s led news coverage locally on the MOVE beat for nearly half a century now.

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LINN WASHINGTON: I’m getting a rush of what I thought was long-buried emotions. (Laughs)

MATTHEW AMHA: It's a story that doesn't sleep, huh?

LINN WASHINGTON: Yeah. Gosh, man. This has been a part of my life since, really, since around ’72, ’73. Because this... Not this apartment, but the one on the front side. That's where-- my first apartment in Philadelphia.

MATTHEW AMHA: At this, Linn points to a walk-up behind us.

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LINN WASHINGTON: And when I became a full time reporter for the Philadelphia Tribune in the fall of 1975, I was assigned to MOVE beat. The new guy. MOVE had grossed out everybody else, and I'm still on the MOVE beat. So I guess in some ways I'm ‘On a MOVE’ (Laughs) like them.

MATTHEW AMHA: Before he’d ever encountered MOVE, Linn knew of this local guy who’d take in stray dogs and walk them around the neighbourhood. And one day, he finally made the connection.

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LINN WASHINGTON: He was talking to one of his sisters -- Louise James Africa. And I saw her talking. And after it was over, well, who were you talking to? You know, well, that was John Africa. And I'm like, “That's John Africa? Your brother, Vince the dog man?”

MATTHEW AMHA: Before he was known as John Africa, Vincent Leaphart was known around Powelton as Vinnie the Dogman. These Victorian homes on North 33rd Street were the epicentre of MOVE activities. It’s where John Africa and his followers lived communally, in accordance with his guidelines. Including his love of animals.

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LINN WASHINGTON: His love for animals had them keeping stray dogs, so there would be, like, 30 or 40 dogs in there. Excrement in the yard. I mean, this place smelled like a pig pen. You know, and I'm telling you, firsthand, from being out here for, you know, weeks and months on end, that embracement of all life included not killing insects and vermin. So, they would compost. And now, to their credit, they were a little ahead of the times in terms of composting. So, you know, there was a lot of vermin here. So majority of the residents were Black people. And, you know, when I was there, like, interviewing them, they're sitting on their porch and the rats were just hopping down the street. It’s almost like, ‘Hey!’ (Laughs) ‘Mickey the rat, how you doing?' (Laughs) I'm being a little facetious. But the Black people who lived on Pearl Street, were the ones who were the most impacted by MOVE’s lifestyle.

MATTHEW AMHA: At the time, there were roughly two dozen people living in the house. As a rule of thumb, only members of the MOVE family were allowed in the home. But there were occasional exceptions. Joel Todd was a lawyer who worked on behalf of MOVE as an intermediary with the city through the 1970s.

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JOEL TODD: I, of course, had heard about them and read about them and knew a little bit about what was going on, but when I got out there and got to the house, it was very primitive. The conditions were very primitive.

MATTHEW AMHA: There was no electricity in the house. No fridge or stove. According to John Africa, anything that needed to be refrigerated or cooked wasn’t designed for the human body. MOVE also rejected processed foods, and relied on naturopathic remedies. Especially the use of garlic to stave off colds and the flu.

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JOEL TODD: There was an odour of garlic permeating everything.

MATTHEW AMHA: MOVE also practised natural childbirth. They rejected birth control, insisted on homeschooling, and forbade makeup, jewellery, body lotion and haircuts. And you know that saying in the U.S. army?

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U.S. ARMY AD: We do more before 9 a.m. than most people do all day.

MATTHEW AMHA: Well, MOVE had one of their own. They say they did more by 6 a.m. than the U.S. army did all week. MOVE members were in top physical condition. They could often be seen sprinting through West Philadelphia. They were said to run 10 miles each day, and practise callisthenics around the clock. Here’s Consuewella Africa.

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CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: We did our pushups, we ran dogs. Up until they started arresting us. I mean, we’d take our animals to give them exercise. We were running around an entire block at a full speed. We were strong. Strong.

MATTHEW AMHA: The MOVE lifestyle was based on John Africa’s guidelines. The central tenet of which was to turn away from all elements of what they called “the system,” and instead, embrace natural law.

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MO AFRICA: John Africa, he was talking about nature and how we need to go back to applying ourself to the natural law instead of applying ourself to the system’s law and man’s law.

MATTHEW AMHA: Mo Africa was one of MOVE’s earliest members.

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MO AFRICA: John Africa say that the law of life has no flaws, is always right. And it’s been here since water has been wet.

MATTHEW AMHA: Another tenet of the MOVE philosophy was community activism.

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DEBBIE AFRICA: A day in MOVE like that, at that point to me, was fun. (Laughs)

MATTHEW AMHA: Debbie Africa lived in the Powelton Village home.

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DEBBIE AFRICA: You know, it was just so much family and so much camaraderie. And it felt good because not only did we have the physical being and intimacy with each other as brothers and sisters, we also had the information, the knowledge, that made us feel good and made us feel satisfied. Because it was just the wisdom. It was the truth. And on top of that, to feel like you are part of something that’s going to help straighten out social ills in society.

MATTHEW AMHA: Its members offered classes on John Africa’s guidelines to the public. They offered care to people struggling with addiction, they ran anti-crime programs, helped neighbours to meet their rent, and served as a levee against what we now call gentrification.

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LINN WASHINGTON: John Africa, he was a part of a collective that was renovating houses to try to be able to keep, you know, people of low and modest means in the community.

MATTHEW AMHA: So while MOVE did split opinion, for the most part, in these earliest years, MOVE’s neighbours believed them to be a force for good. More specifically, Powelton residents understood that MOVE operated as a buffer between them and former police commissioner, and now mayor, Frank Rizzo.

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LINN WASHINGTON: They supported MOVE from the perspective of if Rizzo and “the system” gets away with crushing MOVE, then we're next. So it wasn't an embracement of their ideology. It certainly wasn't an embracement of their lifestyle. But it was seen as part of the effort to continue to push back on Frank Rizzo. Police brutality was just at outrageous levels. Every day, just random beatings.

MATTHEW AMHA: And MOVE members got their fair share of these beatings. There was a pattern.

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MOVE MEMBER ON BULLHORN: But is it possible to describe a maniac -- a profane, obscene, pornographic freak -- without using profane words? Motherf--kers!

[Crowd cheers]

MATTHEW AMHA: It would go something like this: MOVE would identify something to protest.

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DEBBIE AFRICA: Different categories of anything we saw as against life, that was hurting life. All the activities were going on as far as things like that. You know, demonstration against a police department, you know, when we would hear about a case where maybe the police had, you know, killed a youth. Beaten him. Or demonstrating against a puppy palace, [or] circuses that would put electric shocks under elephants’ feet, and that’s what was making him rise up when people thought they were tricks.

MATTHEW AMHA: Members would arrive with placards and bullhorns, and stand outside the business haranguing patrons and employees with invective.

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LINN WASHINGTON: So they had a whole boatload of m-fs and this and that. And it was really almost somewhat absurd in some of these confrontations between the police and MOVE, because they would start out with ‘MOVE’s swearing.’ You know, and then the police would say, you know, ‘Shut the F up,’ you know. ‘You can't curse in public.’

MATTHEW AMHA: Linn means that literally. In the state of Pennsylvania, you could be prosecuted under a disorderly conduct statute for using colourful language.

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LINN WASHINGTON: ‘Who the hell do you think you are, you rotten m-fers?’ So the police are swearing at MOVE, MOVE’S swearing at the police, and then they start fighting each other. (Laughs) But the use of four-letter words was part of their weaponization in their various protests.

MATTHEW AMHA: Here’s Mo Africa again.

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MO AFRICA: Police would show up. They would try to stop us from using our language. We would use words like any time you abuse an animal, you are f--king over nature. And to f--k over nature, that’s a mother--king problem.

MATTHEW AMHA: John Africa’s guidelines lay out the hypocrisy of America’s moral panic over profanity pretty clearly. Quote: “Protecting your son against profanity and sending him off to Vietnam. Screening out profanity on television, and showing the massacre of Indians,” and watching, quote, “blood baths in the Middle East, as you sit back and get concerned about a four-letter word.” For MOVE, police violence was profane. War was profane. Animal abuse was profane. Poverty was profane. And so their use of profanities was simply a way of identifying these elements of society for exactly what they were. So the city used the group’s use of language to target MOVE members for arrest. And the arrests are unrelenting. Between 1974 and 1976, police arrest MOVE members at least 400 times. And keep in mind, at its peak, there were only ever maybe 60 members. These MOVE cases are choking the local courts, and the city is spending inordinate amounts of government money to prosecute a slew of misdemeanour charges. So in effect, these two groups – MOVE and the city – are now engaged in a war of attrition. And MOVE uses this to its advantage. At home, MOVE holds mock trials, where they rehearse their haranguing of prosecutors and judges. One of these mock trials was featured in a Frontline documentary, called The Bombing of West Philly.

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MOVE MEMBER: I have as just as much right and my brother got just as much right to speak as you. So what you doing arrogantly gavelling us down? Our freedom is in jeopardy, and we will do anything to protect that freedom. You cannot put any restrictions on our freedom.

MOVE MEMBER 2: Mr. Africa, this is not a forum for your political views. Do you understand that?

MOVE MEMBER: Do you understand that I was brought here because of my beliefs, because of my views?

MATTHEW AMHA: In the courtroom, they reject the sanctity of the judicial process altogether. Being held in contempt is part of their plan. The courtroom offers them a captive audience, in the bowels of “the system.” By the end of 1975, MOVE members were arrested so routinely that they started bringing food, water and blankets to demonstrations, in the likely event that they ended up in jail. Reporter Kitty Caparella saw it this way.

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KITTY CAPARELLA: There were these two forces -- there was MOVE and there was Rizzo. And they were coming to a crescendo. They were the complete opposites, and you knew there was going to be this unbelievable clash at some point.

CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: So this one particular night...

MATTHEW AMHA: It’s just after midnight, March 28th, 1976, and MOVE people are in good spirits.

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CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: Our people were coming home from jail.

MATTHEW AMHA: Two members, including Mo Africa, have just gotten out of jail -- part of the turnstile relationship they have with the city. Consuewella Africa recalls preparing to welcome them home.

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CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: So we were having a celebration. We prepared a feast for them. We were waiting for them to come home so we could embrace them and show the love and warmth that we had, because MOVE people are a loving family.

MO AFRICA: It was at nighttime. And when we got back, everybody was happy and jubilant and loud and, you know, hollering and having fun and being happy that we were back out of jail.

MATTHEW AMHA: But it’s not long before the police arrive.

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CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: They came out looking for a confrontation.

MATTHEW AMHA: The cops say they’re here because of a noise complaint.

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CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: They started swinging batons, breaking Jerry's arm. Jerry was a big fella -- he was about six foot six.

MATTHEW AMHA: Police would later tell the Philadelphia Inquirer that when they arrived, MOVE members began pelting them with bricks and bottles. MOVE would say that police were hitting them with such force, their nightsticks broke in two. Janine Africa is inside the Powelton home when she hears the disturbance outside. It’s now two in the morning.

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CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: Janine Africa had a three-week-old baby, came outside because she heard all the commotion. I mean, you know, came outside with her baby in her arms.

MATTHEW AMHA: Janine would later tell a reporter that the cops bowled her over in order to get to her husband, Phil Africa. And in the process, she and her baby, Life Africa, were thrown to the ground, and his skull was crushed. Janine’s family say that after the police left, they found her inside, in shock, holding her dead child.

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CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: And in their haste, in their, you know, desperation to brutalize MOVE people, one of the cops dropped their nightstick and their hat, which has his badge number on it. And so my brother went out and he got the nightstick and he got the badge, and we kept this as evidence.

MATTHEW AMHA: MOVE is desperate for the public to see this evidence. They invite members of the press and city officials to the MOVE home for dinner. Lucian Blackwell sat on city council back in 1976. He would later tell a commission that he accepted the invitation to dinner, because as a Black councilman, he wanted to support constituents suffering from police brutality.

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LUCIAN BLACKWELL: After we had finished eating, Delbert Africa passed a note around that said, ‘The baby has arrived’. And it was then I realized that we were being set up for something. We went upstairs. Two Inquirer reporters there. And we saw-- We were led into a dark room, and we saw what appeared to be the remains of a baby. And it was their contention that this baby had been killed in a police raid.

MATTHEW AMHA: There’s a photo of this in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Lucian, his wife Jannie, and four other adults are gathered in a room of the MOVE house. And in front of them, on the floor, a box holding the body of an infant. Ultimately, MOVE hopes for an inquiry into the baby’s death. But the city demands that MOVE produce a birth certificate, and surrender the body of Life Africa for an autopsy. But for MOVE, the very nature of an autopsy was a direct violation of their religious beliefs. A scientific process they believed to defile the dead. The birth certificate was also a non-starter, as MOVE didn’t have any for any one of their children. In the end, MOVE wasn’t able to meet the city’s demands, and so the city refused to conduct an investigation. For the year that followed Life Africa’s death, MOVE and the city remained entangled in a bureaucratic dance with street level skirmishes. MOVE would even file a $26-million lawsuit against the city, for what they called “systemic harassment.” But the suit is dismissed. And so that was it. MOVE now believed the city and their police department were not simply interested in disenfranchising the group, in tying them up in the courts or through petty arrests, but that they were now the subjects of an extermination campaign.

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MOVE MEMBER: We know that Rizzo hates Blacks. We know that Rizzo loves killing Black babies, killing Black people. We prepared for him and we're waiting for him. And we told him that [if] he come out here to kill us, we leaving the front gate open, we leaving the door open.

MATTHEW AMHA: And there was no going back. So just as Nelson Mandela had in the 1960s, once all alternate forms of resistance had been exercised, this is where we see MOVE come to decide that it was time for them to pursue their own liberation on different terms. That is, through violence.

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DEBBIE AFRICA: May 20th, 1977, was the day that MOVE decided we weren’t taking any more beatings, we weren’t taking any more babies being killed, we weren’t taking any more abuse from the Philadelphia police.

MATTHEW AMHA: This is Debbie Africa. John Africa’s niece, and one of MOVE’s original members.

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DEBBIE AFRICA: We were not taking any more of their back-alley beatings or behind-the-closed-doors harassment.

MATTHEW AMHA: MOVE has come to the conclusion that a tactical reassessment is in order.

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DEBBIE AFRICA: So that’s the day we made a statement to the city of Philadelphia with bullhorns. And letting them know that this time if you wanna beat somebody, you’re gonna do it out in the open. If you wanna try to kill somebody, you’re gonna have to do it out in the open for the whole world to see.

MATTHEW AMHA: MOVE members build a platform in front of the Powelton home, and this becomes a stage for members now in full military dress. They’re wearing bodysuits, tactical belts, black beanies. In their hands are firearms. Mostly long guns. Over the course of the next several hours, members of the organization take turns speaking on the platform. Here’s Delbert Africa.

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DELBERT AFRICA: If the police come in here with their hands, we’ll use our hands. If they come in here with clubs, we’ll use clubs. But if they come in here shooting and killing our women and children and our men, we will shoot back in defence of our lives.

MATTHEW AMHA: In photos, you can see him, Janet, Janine, Carlos, Sue -- they’re all here. And gathering around them are local journalists, police, and neighbours. Philadelphia Daily News reporter Kitty Caparella was among the growing crowd outside the home that day.

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KITTY CAPARELLA: The kind of crazies that they were thought to be. They were all in their uniforms of fatigues and berets and guns.

MATTHEW AMHA: Her reporting was particularly hostile towards MOVE.

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KITTY CAPARELLA: MOVE was like North Korea, frankly (Laughs) you know? They were kind of a menace to the neighbourhood.

BILL BALDINI: I do remember them out there with weapons, and screaming and yelling and threatening everybody.

MATTHEW AMHA: Bill Baldini was there too. He was a reporter with WCAU-TV.

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BILL BALDINI: I never really felt scared. I thought they were just trying to make a point. I wouldn’t make the point that way with a gun, but it did irritate the cops, no doubt about it. And that’s-- they seemed very happy with that.

MATTHEW AMHA: Now, those guns? MOVE maintains they were purely for show. Here’s Sue Africa.

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SUE AFRICA: We came out with a strategy. There was no firing pins in any of those weapons. None. And that’s why we were never charged with possession of a gun, the people that were in there. We were charged with possession of an instrument of crime.

MATTHEW AMHA: If nothing else, MOVE understands the power of spectacle and aesthetics. The freeform dreads, the Wrangler jeans and shirtless bodies, and now the uniforms and berets and guns. I mean, you can imagine it: a group of gun-toting revolutionaries in residential Philadelphia, essentially declaring a Mau Mau-like rebellion in plain view of the public. It was a direct challenge to the authority of Frank Rizzo. In the days following MOVE’s front-porch demonstration, the police issue arrest warrants for a number of MOVE members, on weapons charges. Then the city issues an eviction notice. But MOVE refused to evacuate their home. Instead, they barricade themselves on the property.

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LINN WASHINGTON: And then they built a stockade around the properties. It looked almost like mediaeval.

MATTHEW AMHA: Police have orders to arrest any MOVE people seen leaving the home.

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DEBBIE AFRICA: So it was pretty much a standstill as far as that goes. I mean, it was just on the platform and, you know, in the house. On the platform in the house. That’s pretty much as far as we went. And around our property.

MATTHEW AMHA: Here’s reporter Bill Baldini again.

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BILL BALDINI: It was a standoff. I mean, it was like an armed camp. You know, it was like the Alamo or something. It was crazy. Their beliefs were very strong. They seemed to feel that they were absolutely right about everything, and they were willing to defend their rights one way or another. On the other hand, you had the city trying to figure out what to do with these people without going in shooting. But as time went on you could see the patience waning.

MATTHEW AMHA: As the city’s patience waned, rumours about what was going on inside the MOVE house grew. Including that MOVE had acquired military-grade weaponry. Here’s Ramona Africa, speaking with a reporter for Channel 3 KYW out of Philadelphia.

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REPORTER: There's been talk that there are explosives in this house. Is there any truth to that?

RAMONA AFRICA: That's only people's, you know, hallucination. Because they have not been inside this house so they would not know what is in this house. What is in this house is the strategy of John Africa that is very explosive.

MATTHEW AMHA: And while a number of neighbours remain friendly to the MOVE cause, the progressive oasis of Powelton Village is by no means an indicator of the general sentiment in the city. For that, there was the media. With a few exceptions in the Black press, many in Black Philadelphia saw little distinction between the media, the police, and Frank Rizzo. If you ask Mike Africa Jr., the relationship between Rizzo and the press was as simple as this:

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MIKE AFRICA JR: Man, they were his buddies! The local media? Shit. The police, the politicians and the media. They're all cut from the same cloth at that time in this city.

MATTHEW AMHA: By the time of the standoff, Frank Rizzo is at the height of his power. And unofficially, he’s got his own press corps helping him entrench that power. This is from a documentary called Amateur Night at City Hall: The Story of Frank L. Rizzo:

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FRANK RIZZO: I know that I sell newspapers. I know that the press considers me a guy that they enjoy printing and writing. And that's OK with me.

MATTHEW AMHA: The press often refer to MOVE as a ‘cult’. The group and its members are described in animalistic terms, portrayed as uncivilized, and compared with rats and monkeys. Here’s Frank Rizzo again, speaking with WCAU-TV.

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FRANK RIZZO: That mouldy group that look like they need a bath -- the day that they control this city or the country, then we're in trouble. They’re a bunch of radicals.

MATTHEW AMHA: Through the months of the standoff, the stories in the press would become so absurd, it was reported that MOVE were looking to acquire a nuclear weapon. Yeah, a nuke. In residential Philadelphia.

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KITTY CAPARELLA: They manufactured time bombs; collected an arsenal of rifles, handguns and explosives powerful enough to level a city block. And they even attempted to get an atomic bomb.

MATTHEW AMHA: That’s Kitty Caparella again, reading from one of a number of stories on MOVE’s alleged conspiracy to acquire nuclear weapons. And so MOVE is contorted into a criminal monstrosity. Somehow uncivilized and foolish, but also sophisticated criminal masterminds.

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KITTY CAPARELLA: One of the things that the MOVE people had done, was they built a tunnel from the house and out their basement, into the basement of a dry cleaners on Powelton Avenue. And so they could kind of leave the house at night and then come back, even though, supposedly, they were under surveillance 24 hours.

MATTHEW AMHA: That claim she’s making -- it wasn’t true. But the speculation still took hold. So, 10 months into the standoff...

SOUNDCLIP

FRANK RIZZO: We're going to put the blockade in. We want to shut off all utilities. They’ll be (Unintelligible) not a fly get through.

MATTHEW AMHA: Frank Rizzo makes an attempt at an endgame.

SOUNDCLIP

LINN WASHINGTON: So he instituted a starvation blockade, where he sealed off this whole neighbourhood. So the people who live here had to actually have passes like South Africa to be able to get in and out of their houses.

MATTHEW AMHA: These would be Frank Rizzo’s terms until MOVE agreed to give up their home.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: This was the first group attempt to get food to the MOVE members since the blockade went up about a month ago. Carrying dry goods and water, a group of 60 people met three blocks from MOVE headquarters.

NEIGHBOUR: Well, we're prepared to be arrested. We're not armed with anything but food and water. We don't intend to have any physical contact unless it's necessary. But we intend to go over the barricade.

NEIGHBOUR 2: They're treating them like animals. Nobody barricade anybody in this, from a human being. You do animals like that.

MATTHEW AMHA: Police had set up a perimeter around the neighbourhood, but there was an extra barricade set up around the MOVE property itself. So through the worst of the blockade, MOVE survived in part due to the patronage of neighbours. You heard a couple of them speaking there, with a reporter from a local affiliate of NBC News.

SOUNDCLIP

CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: They brought wood in, they brought bottles of water, they brought food. Every day they would just throw them up on the platform. Because they saw that what this system was doing -- this government, the police, you know, Rizzo and all his storm troopers -- was doing to us was wrong, and they were not about to do that.

WALT PALMER: The negotiation was simple.

MATTHEW AMHA: Walt Palmer is working as a negotiator for the city of Philadelphia through the standoff, doing what he can to help mediate peace talks between the two sides.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: MOVE wanted to exist and didn't want to be bothered. They didn't want to be harassed. The city wanted them to deconstruct their site and stop the harassment and/or nuisance that their neighbours complained about. The police wanted to enforce any violations, health codes, housing codes. MOVE was intractable. ‘Just go away. Leave us alone. Let us to ourselves, let us build our compound, let us run our dogs.’

MATTHEW AMHA: Walt says if the authorities had their way, MOVE would simply leave the city for good -- maybe set up on a farm somewhere outside of town. But that was a non-starter for MOVE.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: The police wanted to make sure that no matter what happened in these talks, that MOVE would have to submit itself to a legal process, which they were opposed to.

MATTHEW AMHA: After more than a year, the city was no closer to forcing MOVE out of the home, and the group’s resolve was beginning to wear on officials. Turns out, maintaining a starvation blockade was an expensive undertaking. It had cost the administration $3 million and counting, much of it paid to cops working overtime. So in the end, it was the city who blinked first.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: We were able to get some headway. Because MOVE said, OK, "Walt, go back and say, ‘Look, if we can get our brothers and sisters who are in jail now -- in state prison here, MOVE members -- if we can get them released, we'll then submit to going down, getting pictures, going back home.’

MATTHEW AMHA: Remarkably, the city agreed. But there was a catch. Two, actually. First, MOVE had to agree to open up their home for inspection. MOVE agreed to this, and the city’s inspectors found nothing. No explosives. No nukes. No tunnels. The second catch was that these negotiations were conditional on MOVE agreeing to vacate their home within 90 days. MOVE did agree, but only if they could find foster care for all of their animals in time. When that didn't happen, MOVE asked for an extension, which the city refused. And Frank Rizzo readied his troops for eviction.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANK RIZZO: The police will be in there to drag them out by the backs of their necks.

REPORTER: It will be a confrontation this time? There'll be no barricades?

FRANK RIZZO: I don't know, it's up to them whether they-- No barricades, Mike. They're going to be taken by force if they resist, no question about that. Children or not.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER 2: The complexion of the long-standing stalemate changed radically when hundreds of helmeted police showed up at 3 a.m. to begin preparation for an all-out assault. At 3:30, 33rd Street was closed to traffic. MOVE Supporters in the area scrambled to public telephones to spread the word. At 6:10 a.m., Mayor Rizzo, finally, after 15 months of confrontation, used the force he'd threatened all along. In came a bulldozer and a slow demolition began. The stockade around the compound, which for months kept police from the doorstep, was soon rubble. MOVE’s PA system broadcast the cries of babies inside, heard over the rumble of heavy equipment as rats and dogs ran from the house.

MATTHEW AMHA: Local anchor Pat Warren described it this way. Quote: “I think it's safe to say that the rats use more common sense than the people inside the house. The rats ran when the fence came down. And as I perceived it while watching this drama unfold, MOVE gave its dogs more of a chance than it gave their own children.” It’s now August 8th, 1978. Day 90 of the city’s 90-day deadline. Almost 15 months since the standoff began. Murray Dubin is a reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer. He’s late to the scene, so he starts knocking on doors, looking for a bird’s eye view of the action.

SOUNDCLIP

MURRAY DUBIN: I don't remember if it was the second house I knocked on or the third, but they were students and they were in a second-floor apartment. And they said, "Sure."

MATTHEW AMHA: He’s with his colleague, cameraman Bill Steinmetz.

SOUNDCLIP

MURRAY DUBIN: So Bill and I found a window facing Pearl Street, and sat on the floor and looked out the window. And Bill got his camera stuff ready. And we just waited and waited and waited.

MATTHEW AMHA: As they wait, Walt Palmer makes his way down to Powelton, where he encounters Police Commissioner Joseph O’Neill.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: And I asked O'Neill, 'Let me go inside the house to see if I could talk to them to get them to come out.' He wouldn't do it. He said 'No!' He called me, he said, ‘Take this bullhorn and tell them to surrender.’ I said, 'What's wrong with you? You must have bumped your head on a bedpost.' (Laughs) I’m gonna tell them to surrender? I ain't telling nobody surrender. You all had made your minds up. You've got your guns pointed at each other. And then eventually he said, 'Palmer, come over here.’ He said, ‘Go in there and talk to them.' I mean, deep down inside he wanted a resolution. All the cops, they’re saying, 'Walt, please, if there's any way you can get us out of this,’ you know. I said, ‘I can't make them. All I can do is try, right?’

MATTHEW AMHA: By this time, police have made their way into the kitchen, and have drilled holes into the floor for a better view of what’s going on in the basement, where MOVE has now taken shelter.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: They wouldn't come out. So I went back outside and then I tried again. I mean, I said, ‘Let me take the babies, let me take the women.’ And I tried a third time and couldn't.

MATTHEW AMHA: And with that, firefighters turn on their deluge guns. MOVE members would later describe trying to shelter children from the force of the water rushing into the basement, knocking bricks off the walls and rising quickly. Devita Johnson, known as Dee Dee, was a supporter of MOVE who ended up in the basement that day. She remembers lifting children as high as she could.

SOUNDCLIP

DEE DEE AFRICA: They was pouring water in the house. The water might have been here, to me, but we had kids that was there where the water was like, going over their heads in a way. And trying to keep them from, like, not getting drowned down there.

LINN WASHINGTON: They dumped about 200,000 gallons of water in the basement, and the water was up to their noses.

MATTHEW AMHA: And then the bullets started flying.

SOUNDCLIP

[Gunfire]

LINN WASHINGTON: The first shot came from that building there. This apartment right here.

MATTHEW AMHA: At this, Linn gestures over his shoulder to an upper-floor unit in an apartment block on 33rd, just across the street from where the MOVE house stood.

SOUNDCLIP

LINN WASHINGTON: Because, you know, I heard it, and I looked back this way. I saw the people who were there. They turned around, and they start looking that way.

MATTHEW AMHA: Cops, journalists, witnesses, a number of people in the crowd on the street, turn to look up at the apartment.

SOUNDCLIP

LINN WASHINGTON: And then everybody looks back, and then the shooting starts into the basement.

[Gunfire, sirens begin to wail]

MATTHEW AMHA: This tape you’re hearing is from the scene that day. Walt Palmer is standing in front of the MOVE house when the shootout begins.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: And I'm watching them empty their pistols. Now, they didn't do that until I heard a shot -- what I thought was a shot -- behind me. And once I heard that noise, I said holy shit. I hit the ground because I knew all hell would break loose. And then when I finally got a chance to get up and run behind the bus, damn bullets are hitting off the wall ricocheting. I said, Jesus Christ Almighty.

MATTHEW AMHA: Bob Hurst is a cop positioned up against the house.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB HURST: I seen his face -- Chuckie Africa. He popped out, and boom, boom, boom, boom. Went down, back in again. And I saw a Ruger 22-250. And I was taken aback by it because that weapon was designed for police.

MATTHEW AMHA: Chuck is the youngest of the adult MOVE members. Only just 18.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB HURST: When they start shooting, people thought that they were shooting from behind us. They weren’t. The 22-[2]50 is so powerful it goes into hydrostatic shock, in that it’s about 4,000 feet per second. So it was breaking the sound barrier right when it was going over their heads. And they thought that they were firing from behind. It wasn’t.

MATTHEW AMHA: Hurst says MOVE fired the first shot, and they fired it from the basement. It only sounded like it had come from elsewhere. This opinion of Hurst’s would become the city’s official explanation. So I ask Walt Palmer again about that first shot.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: Had to be cops, and/or a provocateur. But it certainly didn't come from MOVE.

MATTHEW AMHA: Consuewella Africa is in the basement.

SOUNDCLIP

CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: When the bullets came, I literally saw the sparks fly past my face. Literally saw sparks.

MATTHEW AMHA: Debbie Africa too.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE AFRICA: It was just shots fired, people screaming. They were shooting down on us, in the floor.

LINN WASHINGTON: Police were just, you know, shooting into the windows. There was police officers, like, flush up against the building. They were shooting. They were dropping smoke grenades in as well as tear gas.

DEE DEE AFRICA: When they threw the tear gas in there, I was like, ‘Oh god, what do I do now?’ Because once the tear gas hit, you couldn't talk, you couldn't see, you couldn't hear nobody. I had Isha in my arms and I remember saying, ‘Oh God, oh Lord. This is it."

LINN WASHINGTON: And it's just a chaotic scene. You know, the firefighters had hoses and they're now getting injured with gunfire. The police officers are getting injured. Hoses are going every which way. There's a lull in the shooting, then some more shooting comes. And then there's a lull. And it's almost, like, surreal in terms of the silence. Smoke and tear gas is billowing out of the basement.

MATTHEW AMHA: It’s worth noting that before the siege began, Police Commissioner O’Neill had consulted with a local doctor about the possible effects of using tear gas on children. In the chaos, Officer James Ramp, a 23-year veteran of the Philadelphia Police Department, is shot in the neck. News footage from the day shows a number of police officers dragging Ramp through the firefight into the safety of an armoured truck. But it’s too late to save him. By the time the shooting stops, 16 others -- police officers and firefighters -- are injured. That’s when firefighters start pumping more water into the basement. And it’s the rising tide that finally forces MOVE out of the house.

SOUNDCLIP

LINN WASHINGTON: Two women came out initially. And they're, you know, holding children. According to the news: “MOVE use their children as human shields!” No, they were trying to keep the kids from being drowned.

MATTHEW AMHA: Debbie Africa is among the women to come out first.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE AFRICA: I had to feel my way up the steps. By the time they got out they took my baby from me, and then we were arrested. I didn’t see what happened with anybody else. I just closed my eyes because I felt that I would hurt my daughter more if I fought to try to keep her. And I just had to let her go and it was just one of the worst things that ever happened to me in my life.

MATTHEW AMHA: Others follow.

SOUNDCLIP

CONSUEWELLA AFRICA: Myself and Janine were the last women to come out. When I was coming out the basement, I saw them literally beating Eddie about his testicles. Literally. It was vicious.

MATTHEW AMHA: Walt Palmer is watching the surrender carefully. The pavement is soaked from the deluge guns. The smell of gunpowder lingers in the air. There are naked children coming out of the basement and into the street, their eyes stinging from the tear gas still pouring out of the house. So much tear gas, Consuewella wondered if she’d ever see again. It's a hot day too, so everyone’s sweating. And Walt knows emotions are running high.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: And Chuckie came out, and I went over to Chuckie. And he's up there, hollering, screaming, cussing at a cop. And the cop’s got his gun up and put it in his ear. I said, 'Put that-- What is wrong with you? You want to assassinate him in living colour?' OK. I said, 'Chuckie, shut up!' Like, I start cussing at him again, right. And he's shot in the shoulder.

MATTHEW AMHA: While Walt is trying to diffuse the situation with Chuck, Delbert makes his way out through a basement window on Pearl Street. He’s the last to emerge. He’s shirtless, and his hands are up as he walks toward waiting police. Including officer Lawrence D’Ulisse. D’Ulisse would later tell a filmmaker that he ordered Delbert to get on the ground at least three times. And when Delbert ignored those orders, D’Ulisse started to wonder if it was a trap. There’s a photograph of this moment -- Delbert with his arms extended as though nailed to a cross. He’s standing before two police officers. One, Officer Joseph Zagame, is preparing to strike with a helmet he’s holding in his right hand. The other, Officer D’Ulisse, with the butt of his shotgun raised towards Delbert.

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: One rifle butt cracked his skull. The other one cracked his jaw. I mean, just vicious.

MATTHEW AMHA: Walt pauses when I ask him about this moment. He’s certain that he saved Chuck’s life that day. But Delbert’s beating…

SOUNDCLIP

WALT PALMER: I was there. I saw it. That was one-- I couldn't get to him fast enough.

SOUNDCLIP

ED RENDELL: Every step of the way, including the final act today, the police used commendable restraint. And it was done for many reasons. Most of all because the children, who were present today. The police probably would have been legally within their rights to have, subsequent to the shooting of Officer Ramp, stormed the house and killed all of the 12 people in that basement.

MATTHEW AMHA: That’s District Attorney Ed Rendell speaking to media shortly after the raid. At that same press conference, Police Commissioner Joseph O’Neill, standing beside his predecessor Frank Rizzo, responds this way to a reporter’s question about police tactics.

SOUNDCLIP

JOSEPH O’NEILL: But I've had it up to here with individual reporters who are constantly our adversaries. Constantly. And I think when you go out and you talk to these people, and stir them up and try to find out who did what, where, and all that, is you're being totally unfair to the police of this community and to the people of this community.

MATTHEW AMHA: A reporter for NBC then asks the Commissioner if the police were overzealous in, quote: “the heat of the moment.”

SOUNDCLIP

JOSEPH O’NEILL: I know of one instance where one of the MOVE members came out the window with a cartridge case in one hand, a clip, and with a knife in the other, and where he was hit on the top of the head with a steel helmet and was taken into custody. If that’s what you're referring to, Bill. And if that's overzealous, so be it.

MATTHEW AMHA: The MOVE member he’s describing was Delbert Africa. It was a lie. There was no cartridge, no knife. But by then, the city and police had already conceived of the story they would tell of that day. A story of bravery, discipline, honour and sacrifice on the part of the police department. The shootout would make the front page of the Philadelphia Daily News the next morning, with a story reported by Kitty Caparella. It’s headline was, quote: “Oh My God -- They Shot a Cop!” Here’s co-anchor Pat Warren for WPVI Philadelphia TV news.

SOUNDCLIP

PAT WARREN: There had been much concern on the part of many people that the police would make a violent assault on the MOVE members. As it turned out, the police acted with precision and restraint.

MATTHEW AMHA: But the truth was, the police didn’t act with precision and restraint. Remember the pair of reporters with the Philadelphia Inquirer, Murray Dubin and Bill Steinmetz? Well, they had been watching the whole thing from an apartment building across the street.

SOUNDCLIP

[Indiscernible yelling from crowd on the street]

MURRAY DUBIN: (Video) He's hitting him, he's hitting him. Hitting him on the head. Hit-- He’s kicking him on the head!

MATTHEW AMHA: In this video captured by Steinmetz, you can clearly see Delbert Africa on the ground. He’s unarmed, he’s defenceless, and he’s unconscious. Officer Zagame drags his body by the dreadlocks to the nearest curb, where two cops begin to stomp him in unison. You can see two other officers join in. They spread his legs, and kick him in the genitals. Delbert's head is bouncing off of the concrete. Seeing this video, feels like I was watching a man die.

SOUNDCLIP

MURRAY DUBIN: At that point, we become aware that the police see us in the window, and we're not sure they know we're the press. So we're a little nervous about that. We don't want anybody shooting at us so we move from the window. Bill's afraid they're going to confiscate his film.

SOUNDCLIP

BILL STEINMETZ: (Video) Watch them come up here.

MURRAY DUBIN: (Video) What can they do up here?

BILL STEINMETZ: (Video) Take our film.

MURRAY DUBIN: (Video) They can’t take my mouth, can they?

SOUNDCLIP

MURRAY DUBIN: This is a time when they're still using film. And he takes the film out of his camera and puts it in his boot.

MATTHEW AMHA: It is often said that the LAPD’s beating of Rodney King in 1991 was the first major example of police brutality against a Black man to be caught on tape. But Steinmetz, he smuggled this tape of Delbert Africa’s beating out to the world nearly 13 years before that night in Los Angeles. Delbert Africa would be catapulted into the international spotlight. Immortalized, in many ways, as one of America’s first viral victims of police brutality. And the original story that told the public of a police operation that ended with officers showing great restraint, was now suddenly untenable. It wasn’t long before the police union chief was back in the press making a statement. Quote: “They should have shot the god damn bum,” he said. Quote: “and then there would have been no trouble today.” So the city went from denying the fact of Delbert’s beating, to reappropriating it. Framing him as a man lucky to have been arrested alive.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANK RIZZO: The sad part of it is that this incident is not yet over. There will still be misguided voices in the community seeking clemency for these criminals -- criminals who want to live a lifestyle that defies the laws of our society. People who live in a civilized community must abide by the laws which govern everyone else. Out of respect for the sacrifice of Policeman Ramp, we cannot allow this to happen.

MATTHEW AMHA: This is Mayor Frank Rizzo, delivering a press conference at city hall just after the raid.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANK RIZZO: We have seven more to apprehend, and then the trial and the rest of the action so that we can put this revolutionary movement out of business once and for all.

MATTHEW AMHA: A reporter asks Rizzo if he expects this to be the end of MOVE. To which Rizzo replies, quote: “The only way we're going to end them is when the ones that are responsible get that death penalty back. And put 'em in the electric chair and I'll pull the switch. That's when I'm sure they'll not be around.

RB: That was the CBC podcast The Africas versus America. We'll bring you episode five on Monday. The whole series is available on the CBC Listen App or wherever you get your podcasts. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. I'm Robyn Bresnahan. Thanks for your company over the past two weeks. Rosemary Barton will be in this chair on Monday. In the meantime, have a great weekend and thanks for listening to The Current.

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Friday July 14, 2023 Episode Transcript

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