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The Current Transcript for June 14, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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MARTINUS EVANS: So he's like, you know, you’ve got this stomach like a pregnant woman. You need to start walking on a track slowly. You need to buy some walking shoes. And I say, Screw that, screw you. I'm going to run a marathon. And he laughed.

MATT GALLOWAY: When the doctor told Martinus Evans to lose weight or die, the physician probably did not expect him to respond in the way that he did. Martinus Evans did indeed run a marathon, and then he ran seven more at his own gloriously slow pace. And in the process, he challenged what society might think an athlete looks like. In 30 minutes, EVANS On the F word, fat, the ways people who look like him are kept out of sport and why he thinks everyone can run. Also this morning.

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FEMALE SPEAKER: I use my phone almost all day. It's distracting when I make it. So for example, if there’s school work that I've already finished, it's not distracting. But if there’s school work and if I'm procrastinating, that's when it gets distracting.

MG: It is a struggle for many teachers across this country, keeping students engaged and focussed in the era of mobile phones and social media. Ontario banned phones in the classroom in 2019. Phones are still in many classrooms, and now teachers in B.C. say they have seen improved grades with more of the devices out of class. In an hour, is there a place for this technology in learning? But we begin with CBC's Margaret Evans in Ukraine and concerns around press freedom and democratic rule in that country as war escalates. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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UKRAINE

Guests: Margaret Evans, Alexander Lanoszka

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Yaroslava Slyhina’s speech translated: She was in her apartment with her husband. She heard the boom, the explosion. And after that, she saw a flash of light. And she woke up and understood what is happening. She was looking in the eyes of her husband and there was the second blast. The only thing she was thinking is how to save her two kids.

MG: Yaroslava Slyhina is describing a Russian missile strike in Kryvyi Rih yesterday. That is Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s hometown in southeastern Ukraine. The missile hit a residential apartment building and at least 11 people were killed. Yaroslava and her family were able to get out. She was speaking with CBC's Europe correspondent Margaret Evans, and Margaret joins us now from Novovorontsovka, Ukraine. Margaret, hello.

MARGARET EVANS: Hi, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well. Tell us what you know about what happened in this town.

MARGARET EVANS: Well, a repeat performance, I guess, in a sense, in that, you know, air raid sirens went off in the night to warn of incoming missiles, many people sleeping. And of course, this war has been going on so long that now, sometimes, people don't always go to the shelters. Some people don't even wake up. I don't always wake up for an air raid siren. So devastation. It's a cruise missile, we believe, landed right in front of a five story apartment building. And it is the people on the lower floors who suffered the most. A number of dead there. But there were also a couple of other strikes in the city. One, a warehouse. We're not entirely sure what was in it. We're told bottled water. The interior minister told us there was nothing military in the region that they might have been aiming at. But of course, Kryvyi Rih is a city, you know, closer to the east of the frontline. Who knows? But the bottom line is civilians continue to be hit.

MG: It's also Zelensky's hometown, as I mentioned, and we'll talk about this more. But as this long anticipated counteroffensive begins, one wonders whether this is part of the response to that.

MARGARET EVANS: You know, I asked the minister, the interior minister that question and asked if he expected more. And he said, listen, all through the month of May, Kyiv has been attacked again and again and again overnight. And there was no counteroffensive, no talk of the beginning of the counteroffensive. And he said, you know, it depends on nothing more than the, you know, the terrible minds of Russia's military planners. That was his answer to me, was that there is no connection. This is a country that's been under attack for more than a year now.

MG: You were there. We've reached you on the way to Kherson where, as we know, people are still dealing with the aftermath of the flooding in the wake of the explosion that breached the huge dam in that region last week. What do we know about what has happened? We spoke with people there in, you know, the hours after that. What do we know about what's going on in those communities, those surrounding communities days after that dam was breached?

MARGARET EVANS: Well, just to give you a sense of the scale of the damage and how far it reaches, I'm quite a ways upstream from the dam, close to the Zaporizhia nuclear plant, close to the city of Zaporizhia where a huge reservoir sits and feeds communities around it, farmland. And we've just been talking to one of the leaders in this local community that is standing out on the edge of the reservoir and can see how far the water line has depleted there since the dam was destroyed, a metre every few hours, according to officials here. We've also seen scenes of people lining up for bottles of water. They have no running water anymore and they're having to rely on bottled water. This is an area that was under occupation until the Ukrainians took it back. So it's quite a battered place. And when you get further down to Kherson, we didn't make it to Kherson. We haven't yet, but we were in Mykolaiv, a city close to it, and we met people who had been rescued from Russian territory or the Russian side of territory in Kherson, in the oblast or the province. And they said, you know, they wanted to remind us this, that we want to remind you that we were living under occupation. And they told quite harrowing tales of coming under fire as they tried to reach a place where they could be evacuated from. They were being taken to an old boarding school. They are certainly, if there's one thing that Ukrainians know how to do now, by now, it's to respond to emergency and try to help emergencies and try to help people. But again, a reminder of the degradation of conditions for people. I met a woman in Mykolaiv who was a volunteer at the zoo, and we had done a story last year about the impact of the conflict on the zoo in Mykolaiv, which came under a lot of shelling and almost constant shelling, and they haven't had drinkable potable water for a year now. They were still lining up for water. And she said to me, why? Why? Why do you think that the outside world isn't sending more help? Why aren't they paying attention? There was, if you remember, that address by the Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky a few weeks ago perhaps now, maybe not that long ago, but where he was very critical of the International Red Cross and of other international aid organizations for not getting in to help the people after the dam was destroyed. So there's a lot of sense that they may be being forgotten.

MG: Is there, I mean, there was those videos that were circulating, you know, asking Ukrainians to be quiet because the plans of this counteroffensive should not be spread far and wide. But is there the sense while you're there that this is unfolding? Do you have a sense as to the scale of what Ukraine has launched right now?

MARGARET EVANS: No. I would say no. I mean, I do think that the destruction of the dam has been a huge distraction because it does require an emergency effort. And of course, if there was going to be a troop movement in that part along that southern border, very difficult now because of the flooding. In the east, we have reports of, you know, a little breakthrough in the Donetsk, in an area where some of the hardest fighting has been taking place. And the Ukrainians are saying that they've freed up seven villages along this one line, But it's a very small part of the frontline, which is a thousand kilometres long. There are other areas where it seems that sort of there hasn't been a move forward. And of course, the Ukrainians have a big problem in that they don't have air power, air support who can come in and really support a massive move forward. And we are hearing or we heard from the United Kingdom's defence ministry, and they monitor this conflict very closely, that they have noted an uptick since talk of the counteroffensive began in Russian airplanes in the sky. So presumably wanting to support those defensive positions they have down in the south, very well dug in by all accounts.

MG: You mentioned the sense that some people feel as though the international community has forgotten them. And that comes out of the mouth of President Zelensky as well. Canada's Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, was in Kyiv on Saturday, where he committed, what, another $500 million in military assistance. How is that visit received in this moment?

MARGARET EVANS: Well, very well, I think, because it reminded people, you know, it reminded me of how important it was at the start of the war when you started to see the European leaders coming in, people making their way to Kyiv despite the fighting and what a relief that was. And it remains a relief. Canada is hugely popular because we have a big Ukrainian population, of course, and Justin Trudeau is also popular because he was, I think, the first non-European leader to come to Ukraine or to come to Kyiv in May of 2022. They appreciate the money. They appreciate the moral support and they appreciate this pledge to stick with them till the end. We spoke with one Ukrainian member of parliament who said, we're not asking you to die for us. We're not asking you to send your children. We're asking you to make sure that we can win this war, which so many leaders, including Justin Trudeau, say is a fight for universal values. It's a fight for the world. It's a fight for democracy. And there is that sense of fear that if it goes on too long, then that support is going to start to fall away. Certainly, you will get that from people on the streets. But there is also a great deal of gratitude, and people don't want to criticize a country which is offering financial, military and political support.

MG: Let me just ask you finally, I mean, you talk about people on the streets. In Kyiv, the images over the course of this war have been of people trying to live their lives as the war continues. As it grinds on and as this conflict seems to escalate, what did you see in terms of people? Are people still able to try to do that? Are they still trying to live their lives in the face of this conflict?

MARGARET EVANS: Yes, absolutely. And especially in Kyiv, that is happening. And it can be quite disorienting because you know it is a war. And they've got some great cafes. I mean, a few days ago, they had really good weather and it could be any European city. You know, stores are open again. There's no sense of the rationing that existed at the beginning of the war. I think some people fear that there's a normalization that goes on. Other people say, you know, they use this expression, it's sort of like living in a shooting gallery because, you know, you just don't know where it's going to come from. And you do know that it can get to you, but there is still that sense of real determination. But it is very, I would say it's different when you're out close to the frontline and people have been living in these really hard conditions. There is definitely a visible fraying of the nerves. And that's saying something given, you know, how jangly everything was to begin with.

MG: Margaret, thank you for this. Stay safe and I appreciate you, as always, taking time to talk to us.

MARGARET EVANS: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Margaret Evans is CBC's Europe correspondent. She was in Novovorontsovka, Ukraine. And as Margaret just said, the prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, made a surprise visit to Ukraine over the weekend. And while standing next to President Zelensky, he reaffirmed the Canadian government's commitment to Ukraine.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Canada will continue to stand with Ukraine with whatever it takes as long as it takes. Since last year, we've committed over $8 billion in funding assistance to Ukraine. Today, I can announce that we will provide $500 million in new funding for military assistance.

MG: Alexander Lanoszka is an assistant professor of international relations at the University of Waterloo, Senior Fellow at the MacDonald Laurier Institute. Alexander, good morning.

ALEXANDER LANOSZKA: Good morning to you too. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for being back on the program. Let's start with that visit by the prime minister announcing $500 million in new funding. Do we have a sense as to where that money will go?

ALEXANDER LANOSZKA: We do. So a share of that fund will go towards extending Operation Unify, which is the training program that the Ukrainian armed forces has been running to train Ukrainian military personnel. Canada will also contribute to efforts that will train and support pilots. For Ukraine's perspective, F-16s, will be more funds for air defence systems maintenance, as well as from existing funding at least, 10,000 new rounds of four and five millimetre ammunition that Ukraine armed forces can use. So Canada’s own stockpiles have been depleted, but still, there's enough for Canada to give more in a way that will be useful for Ukraine.

MG: As the prime minister mentioned, over $8 billion in military support has been given to Ukraine. What kind of conditions are there on Canada's financial support?

ALEXANDER LANOSZKA: Well, if there are conditions, Canada has not really been very transparent about them, in part because the exigency of the moment requires Canada to provide that financial assistance to help shore up Ukraine's economic needs. After all, Ukraine has been under withering attack for the last 15, 16 months, to be sure there's of course an interest in Ukraine going about anticorruption programs as well as other various democratic reforms. And so I imagine that so long as Ukraine appears poised to undertake those reforms, which I believe it has, despite everything that's been going on, then Canada would not be so hesitant to give that financial assistance. Countries like Canada used to be hesitant to give financial assistance precisely because of concerns about corruption and so forth in Ukraine. But precisely because of Ukraine making headway in these areas in addition to the war itself, those sorts of feelings of hesitation have dissipated over the course of the last few years.

MG: There have been a couple of concerns raised specifically. One is around the issue of press freedom in Ukraine. Last week, the Committee to Protect Journalists called for Ukraine to ensure that journalists covering the war are not pressured over their reporting, not pressured to take one particular side in that reporting or one particular angle in that reporting. There have been accusations that press credentials have been revoked for journalists who are accused of not aligning with the so-called national interest, reporters from The New York Times, from NBC, from CNN, Sky News, The Globe and Mail as well. How concerned are you about that?

ALEXANDER LANOSZKA: Well, Ukraine is again facing a very tough situation, one that few in Canada can possibly understand precisely because that country does face existential stakes. And so there's going to be a high premium on operational security so that troop movements and the like are not disclosed and possibly given to nefarious sources. It is true that independent media has been under significant pressure over the course of the last 15 months. Indeed, this is one area that Freedom House has highlighted as a pressure point on Ukraine democracy. But that being said, even Freedom House has acknowledged that Ukraine's democracy still remains largely unchanged, that other aspects relating to Ukrainian democratic life has shown some improvement, especially with respect to civil society. This is all taking place against the backdrop of martial law, which of course will entail some deterioration of political and social rights, as well as various political liberties. But all things considered, Ukraine seems to be doing as well as it could possibly do given the circumstances.

MG: I think the other issue is around political change. Ukraine has been under martial law since the war started. Presidential and parliamentary elections that are scheduled for next year won't happen. The prime minister has talked about remaining strong and vigilant when it comes to principles of democracy. If Canada is going to be giving huge sums of money continuously to Ukraine, is there a role for Canada to ensure that those democratic values are upheld even as a war unfolds?

ALEXANDER LANOSZKA: For sure. But again, we have to be cognisant of the exact situation in which Ukraine finds itself. Yes, there is the martial law, and the martial law has particular benefits for the military situation that Ukraine faces. Certainly, there are legal provisions of the martial law that do prohibit the holding of national and local elections and even national local referenda. It will be difficult to do those things right now. There probably will have to be some sort of transitionary period as a matter of fact even once martial law were to end. But we might not necessarily be in that situation any time soon. So much does ride on the success of the upcoming counteroffensive, which may have already began in earnest just this past week. We don't know how that’ll turn out. It’ll be a tough battle. Hopefully, it’ll turn out well so that Ukraine can slowly emerge out of this process. But it will take time, and I think we need to be patient.

MG: Just in the last 90 seconds or so that we have, go back to the comments that Margaret reported on where people in Ukraine worry that as the war drags on, perhaps international support will wane. There was a poll done in February by the Angus Reid Institute, 55% of Canadians still in support of Ukraine fighting on in the war. The other 45% believed that Ukraine should go back to the negotiating table. That was in February. I just wonder from your perspective, finally, where do you see Canadian support for the war as it continues?

ALEXANDER LANOSZKA: Yes. So the recent polls indicate that Canadian support has been relatively intact. Over a majority still support Ukraine in its fights. Those polls were made in February when the fighting seemed to be stagnant. So if Ukraine is able to score or have some successes, regain territory as a result, perhaps again, that support will tick upwards precisely because there's a feeling that Ukraine can indeed achieve victory. So those polls, I think it's like a particular moment in the war. And so I’m not entirely sure how that reflects more broadly the trend lines. I am still relatively optimistic that Canadians will support Ukraine.

MG: Perhaps something to come back to as the war continues. In the meantime, Alexander, thank you.

ALEXANDER LANOSZKA: Thank you very much.

MG: Alexander Lanoszka is an assistant professor of international relations at the University of Waterloo, senior fellow at the MacDonald Laurier Institute. The CBC News is coming up next. And then.

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MARTINUS EVANS: Yes, I'm fat. I'm going to let my man boobs fly. And here is why. Fat is a descriptor. It's not a negative connotation. For me, it's a descriptor. I am fat. I have fat in my body. I have man boobs, but I'm also a runner.

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MG: Martinus Evans is redefining who is a runner. For him, it's not just about being the fastest. It's more important just to lace up your shoes and hit the pavement. We'll talk to him about challenging assumptions around weight and fitness and more coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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SLOW AF

Guest: Martinus Evans

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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DANIELLE FRIEDMAN: Are we on a walk or on a run right now?

MARTINUS EVANS: Just vibes.

DANIELLE FRIEDMAN: Yeah.

MARTINUS EVANS: If you’re looking at time, it's like 18 minutes in. All right, You ready?

DANIELLE FRIEDMAN: Uh huh.

MARTINUS EVANS: You're welcome.

MG: That's a report from The New York Times by reporter Danielle Friedman, out for a run with Martinus Evans. But it's probably not the traditional run you're picturing. This is a slow run.

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MARTINUS EVANS: So my thing is like I'm slow. Slow is subjective. I don't want people to be like, oh, I'm slow. Like let me feel bad for myself. I mean, it's like no, I'm slow and I'm proud of it.

MG: Martinus Evans is the founder of the Slow AF Run Club, and the man behind the Instagram account, 300 pounds and running. For his tens of thousands of supporters, he has inspired them not just to get out and go for a run, but to see themselves in a more positive light.

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MARTINUS EVANS: Yeah, it's a friendly reminder that you is the only person that's responsible for your happiness, not me, not social media, not your significant other, not your kids, you. So what are you going to do to make yourself happy? Let's get out there.

MG: His new book is “Slow AF Run Club: The Ultimate Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Run”. Martinus Evans, good morning.

MARTINUS EVANS: Thank you for having me.

MG: Slow AF. Where does that come from?

MARTINUS EVANS: Oh, man, slow AF comes from an instance where I was running a marathon and I got heckled by somebody and he told me, yo, you slow. You need to go home. And had an argument with him and I was like, you know, you need to go home because you're drunk and I'm the one running the race. And from that moment on, I vowed to wear slow AF on my shirts. Every race that I run has a badge of honour to let people know that yeah, I might be slow, but I'm out here doing it.

MG: So we’re going to have to beep this or bleep it, but do you want to explain what slow AF actually means?

MARTINUS EVANS: Well, slow AF, you know, for the Internet times means slow as beep. But how I like to think of it is that slow AF can mean anything. It’s up for debate because so it can mean slow and fat run club. It can mean slow and fabulous. Slow AF is for anybody to decide what they want it to mean.

MG: Take me into the doctor's office in 2012. You go there for a visit and you see your doctor and your doctor says what?

MARTINUS EVANS: Yeah. So I'm sitting there and my doctor is like, Mr. Evans, you're fat. You need to lose weight or die. Matt, let me just give you a little more context of that. I went to that doctor because I was having hip issues. I was working at a job that required me to be on my feet for 8 to 10 hours a day. So being a £300 man, I'm on my feet eight to 10 hours a day. I developed these hip issues. So I went to go see an orthopedic specialist. This is the first time I’m ever meeting this doctor. And as I'm telling him, you know, what's going on with my hip, he was like, I know why you're in pain. So why am I in pain? You're fat. You need to lose weight or die. So I got frustrated, infuriated because I'm there because of this hip issue and he has this holding of thinking that he wants to tell me. So he's like, you know, you got this stomach, it's a pregnant woman. You need to start walking on the track. You need to start walking on the track slowly. You need to buy some walking shoes. And I say, screw that, screw you. I'm going to run a marathon. He laughed and told me that was the most dumbest thing he has heard in all his years of practicing medicine.

MG: Why did you say that to him, screw you, I'm going to run a marathon?

MARTINUS EVANS: One of the things that you notice as a person of size is that you go to the doctor. You can have a broken arm. That arm can be falling off your shoulder. But if you’re fat, that doctor is like, oh yeah, we'll get to that arm. Well, let me talk about your weight first. So I was frustrated. I was being facetious because he was like, you know, you need to start walking. And I'm like, no, skip all that. I'm going to go run. I'm going to do the most extreme thing possible.

MG: Had you ever done any running before?

MARTINUS EVANS: No. So I played football in high school and college, so running was a punishment. To be perfectly clear, I didn't know what a marathon was back then. You know, I was saying to my friends like yo, I'm going to do this five K marathon. And they was like, no, wait, wait, wait, Martinus. Like there's a five K and there's a marathon, but they're not the same. So once I really found out like what a marathon was, I was like, oh, I get it now. But still, I said it. I put it out in the universe, I'm going to run this marathon. And this doctor told me that I couldn't do it, so I still needed to prove him wrong.

MG: You grew up in Detroit?

MARTINUS EVANS: Yes.

MG: What was life like for you growing up as a kid in that city?

MARTINUS EVANS: Growing up in Detroit was rough. Before the age of 10, I had two brothers pass on me. So I had a brother who was in the streets and he passed by doing street things. And I had another brother who died by suicide when I was 10 and not seeing his body.

MG: I’m sorry.

MARTINUS EVANS: Thank you. So just imagine, you know, you have that on you. You’re living next to a crack house. You know, you're passing that every day and individuals are constantly telling you that you're going to end up like your brothers.

MG: You tried out, you talked about being a football player. You tried out for the youth football team. What happened then?

MARTINUS EVANS: So I tried out for a youth football team and I was overweight. Little fat Martinus could not play football. And, you know, one of the things that they made us do, the individuals who were overweight was made us wear garbage bags during tryouts. So they used to call us garbage kids. So we had to run around the football field during tryouts with these garbage bags on. And all over the guys, I was sweating off the fat in order to make this thing.

MG: What does something like that do to a young person?

MARTINUS EVANS: It makes you think that you're useless because you're a person of size. Like theoretically, like I was in a garbage bag. So it makes you think that you are trash, that you don't belong. That's what it does to somebody who's a person of size and their being younger.

MG: Can I ask you about the F word, and not that F word, but the other F-word, which is a word that you've used a couple of times already in the course of the conversation, and that's fat. You write about this earlier on in the book, and you say that it's a value neutral description you using that word. Can you tell me about that? What does that word mean to you?

MARTINUS EVANS: Yeah. So imagine growing up, the same thing, you know, and people calling you fat and it's meant to demeanor you. It's meant to show that you're morally inferior than somebody else. And, you know, one of the things I want to be able to do is reclaim that word and let people know that fat should be used as generally as somebody saying that their eyes are brown or their hair is blonde.

MG: After you decided that you were going to run the marathon, having told the doctor that, but as you said, you put it out in the universe, you went and you ran on a treadmill. Tell me what happened when you stepped on that treadmill.

MARTINUS EVANS: Yeah, man. So I get on this treadmill now, inconveniently sandwiched between two gazelles. One guy is going 10 on the treadmill and the other guy is going nine. And I thought to myself, you know what, I can at least go seven. So I got on the treadmill and my life flashed before my eyes. 15 seconds later, I fell off the treadmill. And the sound my body made when it hit that ground was deafening. I was mortified. And when I gathered everything and got up out of there were tears in my eyes. You know, I thought to myself, maybe the doctor was right. And it wasn't until I got home and I have this tattoo on my right wrist that says, no struggle, no progress. And, you know, I’d seen that tattoo and it's a shout out or nod to the famous 1837 Frederick Douglass speech of the same name. And I knew what I had to do. I had to go through the struggle. This journey was not going to be given to me easily.

MG: I just wonder why that didn't finish you, why that moment of humiliation, for a lot of people, that would have just been it. They would have said, absolutely not. I'm not getting back on that treadmill. I'm not going to try to do this again.

MARTINUS EVANS: I was internally driven by the spite of that doctor, right? I was going to prove him wrong regardless of whatever else was standing in my way. So me falling off the treadmill did not mean anything, knowing that the reward at the end, proving this doctor wrong, was going to mean so much more to me.

MG: This book that you've written, you say in many ways is for non-traditional runners. Who are non-traditional runners? What does that mean?

MARTINUS EVANS: Non-traditional runners are people who are historically not seen on, you know, modern media or on covers of magazines, right? These are the individuals who are too fat, too slow, too, fill in the blank, to be a runner. And these are the people that are my people and the people of the Slow AF Run Club.

MG: You say that they have been underserved. How so?

MARTINUS EVANS: Well, a few things, right? Most of my runners and even myself, right, when you’re running these road races, being in a bag, I've been left with no water. I've been left to try to find the finish line myself because they've taken down the signs. I've been left with no metal. Even though I paid my money, they make it seem as my green money is not as equivalent to somebody else who runs faster than me. So that's what I mean by Being underserved. The second thing is that most how two running books are written by elite athletes and coaches of elite athletes telling you how to run like an elite athlete. And for non-traditional runners, that information is completely useless.

MG: I mean, that can even start feeling underserved when you decide that you're going to run, right? So you go to a store and you want to buy shoes. You want to go and buy running clothes. What are you up against in trying to just get the basics to get out and go for a run?

MARTINUS EVANS: We're in a society where people are like, you lose weight, get faster. Or like they see a fat person, like you need to lose weight. Okay, well, let me go try to find clothes. On that day that I went to go buy running shoes, I also stopped by a big box retailer to get clothes and they didn't have anything to fit me. And the guy, the sales associate insisted that I was a size that I wasn't. So I went in the fitting room and put the shirt on and cut it to get it off me. So I had to rip it off me like the halt. And then I made a beeline out the door because I was just so embarrassed on the fact that nobody believed I am this size.

MG: How did you prepare for the first marathon that you ran?

MARTINUS EVANS: So it took me about 18 months to actually run a marathon, and I was very methodical. So I did close to five K and then ran a couple of five Ks and then did a five K to 10 K bridge. Did that and then did my first half marathon. And it was very, very methodical steps of all right, I did a five K, check that off. Did a 10 K, check that off. Did a half marathon, check that off. Okay, I think I'm ready to train for a full. So from the time that I’d seen my doctor to when I actually ran a marathon was 18 months.

MG: What was the hardest part in terms of trying to get to a place where you could run that distance and feel good about running that distance?

MARTINUS EVANS: Two things. Once you started getting up to a distance long enough, it seemed to take miles. I think trying to find a route that didn't wear me out my mind was one of the things. The second thing was food. So I'm out there for three, four or five hours. So really trying to understand like what does it really mean to eat on the run? And that was one of the things that I struggled with throughout my journey initially because I thought that runners just went out there and ran and didn't eat any food. There are so many times where I called my wife to tell her to come get me because I'm sitting on the side of the road because I just ran out of steam.

MG: What are some of the things, when you ran that marathon, what are some of the things that happened to you during that first marathon?

MARTINUS EVANS: So I would say the first half of the marathon was amazing. The second half was kind of rough. So there was this bus, you know, we call it the Segway wagon. So it stands for Supporting Gear. Every mile from about mile 19 to the end of the race, this guy would come alongside of me and say, hey, big man, you want to ride to the finish line? And it was almost like taunting me, right, of like, hey, get in this thing because I know you're not going to finish. And I get all the way to like mile 25. And I just have like a blow up at this guy because he's coming mile at the mile, hey, big man, get in the car. Hey, big man, Get in the car. Then I'm like, yo, I am less than a mile away. Why would you even offer this to me? And his words were I can't help that you’re slow and fat. I thought I was helping you out.

MG: You finished the race?

MARTINUS EVANS: Yeah, I did.

MG: What did it feel like when you crossed the finish line?

MARTINUS EVANS: I wept. Matt, it was amazing. I cried tears I've never cried before, Matt. So it was amazing. And from that moment on, I knew that I can do anything. I can literally do anything that I can as long as I put my mind to it. So even though it took time, right, I think in this day and age, most people think, oh, you say, oh, I got to go. And then you go out and do it and you think you're going to accomplish it within the next week. Running for this marathon showed me that there's actually honour in patience, and doing the hard work. Month over month, day after day, being consistent and persistent in your journey so that you can get to the finish line of your own proverbial marathon.

MG: I mean, a marathon is about the distance. For a lot of people, it's also about the time. And so for you, what time did you finish the marathon in? How long did it take you?

MARTINUS EVANS: It took me a little bit over seven hours.

MG: And did you think about time? Did you think about where you would finish, the position that you would finish in that race?

MARTINUS EVANS: No, not necessarily. You know, there's this phrase that I was taught early on, and it's called the celebration is in the application. So you should be celebrating yourself that you actually got off the couch and applied yourself versus the actual result of getting the thing.

MG: Because part of this, and again, this comes up in the book, is a shout out to people who might finish at the back of the pack, people who might finish last in the race.

MARTINUS EVANS: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the beautiful thing is that, I mean, one of the things I learned was in certain cities and areas, road races are permitted as a parade. So if you think about it in that sense, if your life does not depend on running races and getting first place medals and running Olympics, none of this stuff really matters because we are all just participating in a parade. So why does it matter if somebody finished the parade before somebody else? Because when it's all said and done, we paid the same money to run in the parade and you get the same participation trophy.

MG: People think a lot about pace when they're running and you say that pace doesn't matter. What is sexy pace?

MARTINUS EVANS: So sexy pace is this convention of conversational pace, right? So running at the pace that you're able to have a conversation with your friends. This is what most of your run should be consisting of. So about 70 to 80% of your runs should be in a sexy pace. And then about the rest of the percentage of the run should be, you know, speed workout or maybe not even say speed workout, but track workout or just doing something that’s at a little faster pace so that your body can understand what it looks like to push yourself to the next level.

MG: What's the sexy part of the conversation?

MARTINUS EVANS: The sexy part of it, because I thought about it when I was running that, you know that old school music, Baywatch theme song?

MG: You're running in slow motion along the beach.

MARTINUS EVANS: I'm running in slow motion on the beach, so I had to switch it up, you know, and turn something negative of like, oh, I'm running slow to no, I'm running sexy like Baywatch.

MG: There's a part in the book in which you ask people who might be doubting themselves that they can do this to, in your words, check your self-talk. What does that mean?

MARTINUS EVANS: We all have an inner critic. And one of the things I learned throughout this journey is that, you know, not everything you think is real and not everything you feel is real. And it's all due to this inner critique. So one of the things that I've done is give my inner critic a persona. So my inner critique’s name is Otis. I named him. He has a back story. He's like a drunk uncle who’s going to say wow and inappropriate stuff to you. And by doing that, you can separate your feelings and your thoughts away from you, especially the negative stuff and have a conversation with Otis, for lack of a better word, to say, you know, I know what you're saying to me. I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to prevent me from going through discomfort. But I need to go through discomfort in order to get to the other side. Matt, do you know how lobster's get bigger? Like lobsters literally get bigger by being uncomfortable in their own shell and then breaking that shell and then growing a new shell over the top of that. And they continue to do that over and over again until, you know, they die because they can't grow shells any bigger anymore. So like that's how lobsters get bigger, is that literally, they are uncomfortable in their own shell and the only way to grow is to break that shell and to continue to move forward.

MG: How often do you hear Otis's voice in your head now?

MARTINUS EVANS: As of lately, you know, he comes out peaking up, especially when this book came out, right? Because it's one of the things where you spend so much time and you spend so much time in this room and coffee shops and so on working on this book. And now it's out in the open. And, you know, sometimes, you do hear Otis be like, oh, you know what, you should have added this story. Or you know what, you should do this. And one of the things I think you tell him is just like, you know what, like the book is out there. It’s in people’s hands. We can save that for the next book.

MG: A huge part of this in what you've done and what you're talking about and what comes out through the book is this idea that you belong here, that people belong in that space. And there are, I mean, you've talked about some of the obstacles in terms of the abuse that you face, but what are some of the other things that you have come up against that would make you question whether you belong in this sport?

MARTINUS EVANS: Imagine going to a running club and they say all paces are walk them and you get there and the pace that you run, they don't have anybody to support you.

MG: What happened to that? I mean, there's that idea of no one's going to be left behind in a running group. What happened when you joined one of those groups and that wasn't the case?

MARTINUS EVANS: I got left behind and I had to fend for myself. And I think that's one of the reasons why I created this Slow AF Run Club, is to let people know that, you know, while we may not meet in person, we will never leave you behind. And we’re going to make sure that you're supported on and off the course.

MG: One of the issues that you raise is the concerns of running while black. What have you faced when it comes to people looking at you because of who you are, because of race, while you are out training or just out for a casual run?

MARTINUS EVANS: Right. So being a black runner in this, right, you know, I have to go back to what happened in Omaha three or four years back. That almost broke me. I mean, I almost hung it up for running because just to see this man's story and knowing that that could have been me, right?

MG: He was out running and then was hounded and shot and killed.

MARTINUS EVANS: Exactly. And just to see that black man and see what happened to him, like I saw myself in his shoes. You know, I spend a lot of time outside running, right, sometimes in neighbourhoods that is not necessarily neighbourhoods that I grew up in and sometimes at times where it's not necessarily generally accepted. Imagine like I'm training for a marathon, so I'm out there for six, seven hours. And the best way to do this is to run before the sun is out. So there has been times where I've been stopped by the police, I've been handcuffed, I've been slammed on hot hoods, just on the notion of doing something suspicious or I shouldn't be outside at this time because I'm a black man.

MG: You've become, as I said, more than just a runner for a lot of people. You're an inspiration. And I wonder, part of this is about what you've written. Part of this is about doing things like posing nude for Men's Health magazine. Why did you do that?

MARTINUS EVANS: You know, there are still men out there, men of size who also have issues about their body and their body image. And I wanted to let them know that, you know, as a 300 plus pound man, that I can be comfortable in my body, so much so comfortable that I can pose nude in Men's Health and let the whole world to see that if I can do it, you can at least take the first step to at least start to feel comfortable in the skin that you already have.

MG: So for people who might think they're just not cut out for this, they might want to do this, but they have experienced all of the shame and the stigma that you talked about over the course of the conversation, what's the piece of advice that you would give them about how they would get out and give this a shot?

MARTINUS EVANS: Two things. Practice delusional self-belief.

MG: Delusional self-belief.

MARTINUS EVANS: Delusional self-belief. This is the notion that you believe in yourself so much that everybody else around you thinks you're delusional, right? And it comes from this whole notion of imagine a telephone. Somebody had to be like, you know, I'm tired of sending a telegram. I want to talk to somebody in this room and somebody being like, man, you're delusional. That's the same thing with delusional self-belief, right? I told the doctor I was going to run a marathon. He told me if I ran a marathon, I'll die on the course. I ran eight marathons so far and I still didn’t die. So I got to believe in myself so much that everybody else thinks I'm delusional. That's the first thing. The second thing is that you got to do it afraid. You know, I think that a lot of people, we let fear take over for us, right? False evidence appearing real take over. And what's the worst thing that can happen? Somebody tell you you're fat. You already know that. What I notice is that the things that I tell myself is way more worse than anything else somebody else can come up with. So if I can battle with my own mind and battle with Otis, the next guy is not as strong. Their words don't stink as much.

MG: And to that doctor, I don't know whether you've sent a book to the doctor or not, but if you could talk to that doctor, what would you say to him?

MARTINUS EVANS: Quit your day job.

MG: I hope we have the chance at some point in time in future to go on a run together. In the meantime, this is a really inspirational book and a powerful message for people who could really do with hearing something like this. Thank you very much for talking to us and good luck.

MARTINUS EVANS: Thank you, Matt. Thank you for having me.

MG: Martinus Evans is an author, runner, run coach. His new book is “Slow AF Running Club: The Ultimate Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Run”. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE SPEAKER: If it's math and I'm really intrigued by the lesson, I won't use. I won't touch it at all. But I mean, if I find the class boring or if I was forced to take the class for whatever the reason or I find the class very repetitive and easy, I’ll most likely use my phone.

MALE SPEAKER: I try to limit my use because I don't really like having just a thing in my pocket that can go off whenever. So like oftentimes, I turn it off or turn on airplane mode or something because it can be distracting. Like an outright ban would not work because they have become such an ingrained part of our society that it wouldn't work well. Like a lot of people need their phone to be able to message to their parents or something. And parents would also be worried about their kids if they can't communicate with them for eight hours of the day.

MG: It is the middle of June. The school year is winding down, but there is still a hot debate going strong on how to handle cell phones in the classroom. Some people see them as tools for learning, important for safety. There are others who see them as a distraction and a real concern when it comes to privacy. Coming up, educators and students weigh in. What is the place of the cell phone in the classroom? Is there evidence that shows that if you take that cell phone out of the classroom, students will do better? And if it's going to be there, that technology, is there a way to incorporate it into learning? We'll talk about all of that in 90 seconds. My name is Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

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CELL PHONES IN SCHOOLS

Guests: Jason Bradshaw, Dr. Shimi Kang

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

TULANI PIERCE: We've seen improved mental health. We've seen a decrease bullying with social media. We're seeing more engagement in the classroom. We're seeing less distractions and we're actually seeing our kids socially interact more. We're seeing play come back.

MG: Tulani Pierce is a school counsellor at Chatelech Secondary School in British Columbia, and she decided to ban cell phone use in her classroom just over six months ago, after noticing mental health concerns in some of her students. And she says that ban has made a big difference. There is debate, though, across this country in many schools about how to deal with cell phones. And not everybody thinks that banning that technology is the solution. Jason Bradshaw is a grade 10 and 11 teacher at Castle Brook Secondary School in Brampton, Ontario. Jason, good morning.

JASON BRADSHAW: Good morning.

MG: We've reached you just before the start of the school day. What are you seeing in your classroom when it comes to cell phone use?

JASON BRADSHAW: Well, I definitely see both the positives and the negatives. I see students who are able to use them in ways that help them engage with their lesson and their learning. But of course, there are the distractions. I think it's a little bit of there are pros and cons definitely, and it's a bit of a tricky situation to navigate sometimes.

MG: As you walk around the classroom, I mean, you peer over the kids’ shoulders. What are they doing on their phones?

JASON BRADSHAW: Well, sometimes, they're doing what I ask them to do. Oftentimes, because I teach science, I ask them to use their phones as tools for research, for looking something up, for using an app to help them record their data or something like that. But of course, sometimes, they are, you know, checking Snapchat or Instagram or sending a message to their friends. So there's a bit of both. And I think it's just something that you have to learn to manage and they have to learn to manage as well.

MG: Have you seen that change over the last few years, I mean, in terms of the degree to which those phones are being used and how they're being used?

JASON BRADSHAW: Definitely. Yes. So as a matter of fact, I began my teaching career in about 2007, which is ironically the year when the first iPhone came out. So I've literally seen the progression of the adoption of cell phones and smartphones in the classroom. And it's definitely become more challenging in a lot of ways as they've become more pervasive. And obviously, coming back from the pandemic and kids re-socializing within school, it's definitely added some new complications as well.

MG: And when you talk about distractions, I mean, again, just describe that. It sounds obvious, but is it kids who like you're actually talking at the front of the classroom and they're not paying attention, that you're calling their names and perhaps they don't hear their name because they're deep into Instagram?

JASON BRADSHAW: That can happen. Yes. And I think, I mean, if we think about ourselves as adults, I mean, that happens to us too. We get distracted by our cell phones as well. But oftentimes, when you lay out those expectations about when the phones are appropriate to use and when they're not, most students will respect that. Sometimes, they need a reminder. Of course, I'm teaching somewhat older students. I teach high school students. I understand this is going to be a much more challenging situation if you're teaching maybe middle school or elementary students. They might not have those skills for self-regulation just yet, but it's something that I think they have to learn to adjust because when they leave school, they're going to have their cell phones in real life as well. So it's something that we can start helping them manage even now.

MG: I want to get to your rules in a moment, but it's interesting because you're teaching in Ontario, and that province banned cell phones in the classrooms in 2019. How has that worked out?

JASON BRADSHAW: Well, I think that was always more of a sound bite kind of thing that the politicians used to make it sound like they were really enforcing some changes within our schools. But ultimately, the language of that ban is that phones are still permitted for educational use at the teacher’s discretion, which is basically what it's always been. So it hasn't really been formalized in any way. I think that what teachers need is they need something more concrete and to know that they have support of their administrators when they choose to ban phones in their classrooms because they should have that right. I do understand that some teachers want to do an outright ban, and that is by all means their prerogative to do that.

MG: But to your point, you need the support of administrators because you could get pushback from students and from parents, perhaps, who say this is the child's own, you know, it's their possession, it's their technology. They're allowed to keep it. And as a parent, perhaps I want to be able to reach my child.

JASON BRADSHAW: Absolutely. And that's where you have to work with the school administration, the teachers, and I think the families and the community need to be involved in those conversations and in those decisions.

MG: So in Mr. Bradshaw's classroom, what are the rules?

JASON BRADSHAW: Well, basically, it's you can use your phone when I've said that it's appropriate to do so. So there are certain times when if I'm directly addressing the class, if I'm giving a lesson, obviously during like a test or an assessment, those would be times when I would expect the phone to be put away. And as I say, most of the time, students are respectful of that because a lot of my class is hands on work. It’s students able to do things where they're performing experiments or they're collaborating with colleagues or peers. And those are times when the cell phone use is appropriate. And of course, there's going to be times when, you know, they take a look at Instagram or whatnot, but that's just like in real life too with adults. We do the same thing when maybe we have a minute. But as long as it doesn't start to detract from the student's achievement in the classroom, it's usually an acceptable balance.

MG: If the student doesn't follow the rules, I mean, I'm old enough to remember that if you were doing something in a classroom and you weren't paying attention to the teacher, the teacher might take the thing that you were distracted by and put it in the drawer of the desk. Can you do that with the phone?

JASON BRADSHAW: That's a bit of a complicated situation. Some teachers do do that. And the challenging part is, of course, this is not just something simple like, you know, like a notepad or something that a student is sketching on. This is a piece of technology that might be worth $1000. So I know a lot of teachers are not comfortable taking that liability on themselves. It is something that can be done if you maybe negotiate something with the student or the family. And again, that's where you need the support of an administrator. I very rarely have found myself in a position where I've needed to actually remove a student's cell phone. When I have had to do that, usually, what I do is I ask them to bring it up to me, I open a drawer on my desk right in front of them, they place it in the drawer, I close the drawer and they watch me lock it. So they know that’s secure. They've seen that it's in a safe place. And that way, that limits the liability somewhat. There's less that can go wrong, I think. But again, it's something that I think a lot of teachers are very nervous about because what if you take that phone and it gets lost or broken and your principal isn't going to back you up and say that you had a right to take that phone?

MG: What about, I mean, in addition to being expensive pieces of technology, they’re also really powerful pieces of technology. How could you use them in a healthy way in the classroom to incorporate them into lesson plans?

JASON BRADSHAW: Well, that's what I try to do on a daily basis. As I mentioned, I teach science. So when I think about like what scientists do out in the real world, they leverage the technology that they have available to them. They use digital recording devices to record their experiments, to collect data to analyze it later. And that's what I teach my students to do and I model that as well. Now, ideally, a school should be able to provide devices for each and every student to do that. It would be great if every student could have an iPad that they could use in place of a phone. That's not often possible. So oftentimes, we leverage the technology that students already have on them and that they're already comfortable using. So I think that in my classroom at least, the idea of banning cell phones completely would be kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's definitely something that comes with its challenges, but it also comes with some constructive benefits as well.

MG: Is this something that we're going to need to think about going forward? This technology is not going to go away. And so will teachers like yourself have to, if the bans are going to work, are you going to have to figure out a way to find a place for this technology in the classroom?

JASON BRADSHAW: Absolutely. Because as you say, the technology isn't going away. It's part of our society and it's something that we're just going to have to learn to adapt to.

MG: I mean, the other part of it, I suppose, just finally, is we parents perhaps could model behaviour that we want our children to learn from. What is it that you would want from parents when it comes to, you know, the lesson that they could provide to their students, to their parent, to their children, pardon me, about what they do in the classroom?

JASON BRADSHAW: I think the important thing is making sure that we're all part of the same team. Parents hopefully need to reinforce the expectations that a teacher is setting out about appropriate use and just model that activity as well. I know it's difficult to say sometimes, but even at home, as adults, we pull out our phones at the dinner table or during conversations and we need to think about the message that that’s sending as well.

MG: We’ll let you get to the classroom. I think the students are ready for the lesson. Jason, good luck today and thank you very much.

JASON BRADSHAW: Thank you.

MG: Jason Bradshaw teaches at Castle Brook Secondary School in Brampton, Ontario. So yes, teachers are grappling with this, students as well. We spoke with high school students in Vancouver and Toronto about how they use their phones in class and whether banning those phones in the classroom would work.

SOUNDCLIP

AVA: My name is Ava. I am in grade 12 and honestly, I just use my phone to cheat and to text my friends and it really distracts me. So there's nothing really that good coming from it.

MELANIE: I'm Melanie. I'm in grade 12. To be honest, I don't really use my phone in class. But like during the breaks, I'll be on it for like a couple five minutes. But I'm pretty good at like staying off of it.

FIRST FEMALE SPEAKER: I think banning cell phones in school is definitely a great idea because like that's half the reason I failed half my classes. So if I was in grade eight and like throughout all of high school, I wasn't allowed to go with my phone, I'd probably like find it way easier because I'd pay more attention and my attention span wouldn't be so short.

SECOND FEMALE SPEAKER: If phones didn't exist, like everyone would just be like communicating more. Because like in my class, like no one really talks to each other, just like on their phone, like on Snapchat, like playing a game. And it's kind of sad if you think about it.

FIRST FEMALE SPEAKER: It's so sad because we should all be talking. This is also like our grade 12 year and everyone's just on their phone on YouTube.

THIRD FEMALE SPEAKER: If I don't end up using my phone and I end up sleeping, I'd rather use my phone than sleep through a class. I don't think it's totally terrible. And there are benefits to it. More than half the time, we're just searching for answers to a question because we just don't understand it.

FOURTH FEMALE SPEAKER: I would honestly kind of feel anxious if it was banned because I never know like what's going to happen, if I'm going to need to use my phone or like my parents would call me or text me about something. So I feel like they shouldn't ban it, but they should like encourage kids not to use it.

MG: Dr. Shimi Kang is a psychiatrist and author of “The Tech Solution: Creating Healthy Habits for Kids Growing Up in a Digital World”. Good morning to you.

DR. SHIMI KANG: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of what you just heard? I mean, there's some honesty there from Ava who says that she just uses it to cheat and text her friends, but there's also a degree of self-awareness, I think, from some of those students.

DR. SHIMI KANG: Yeah, it really is. And I've been a psychiatrist for 20 years. I worked with all kinds of kids and families. I have three teenagers myself. And I think, you know, they were being really honest. You know, the data is so clear. Cell phone use and technology, you know, this is not an anti-protect conversation. You know, cell phone use that is used well in classrooms like Jason was talking about, that's being used for data and research, learning coding, robotics, there's no chance that this generation isn't going to need tech and or is using tech. However, it's also linked to anxiety, depression, addiction, lack of sense of belonging, difficulty with attention and community building, misinformation and actual direct threat to children's learning. So the issue isn’t pros or cons. My belief is let's allow healthy, robust technology in the classroom, including cell phones if needed. The rest of the time, and very importantly in the hallways and in the cafeteria, cell phones really should not be there because that is where kids are not interacting, communicating, connecting, building relationships, improving their mental and social health. So, you know, it's a simple solution. We took sugar out of vending machines in the schools. That was a change. It took us 50 years to realize the impact of sugar on our physical and mental health. We have the data on technology. Allow healthy tech in the classroom and limit and monitor that junk tech, that toxic tech that comparing your life, looking at Snapchat, it takes 23 minutes to refocus your attention. Any child or teenager that looks at Instagram before a science class is fundamentally mentally not there in that classroom. So it's such an important topic. Thank you for bringing it up.

MG: Well, do you think, and one of the reasons why we're bringing it up is because there are a lot of different approaches to this. There's the idea of banning it. There's the idea of kind of scolding the kids and saying, don't use that technology. Is it reasonable to expect teens, young adults to learn how to self-regulate when it comes to their phone use, technology that they have grown up using?

DR. SHIMI KANG: It's extremely difficult. So like Jason mentioned, even adults, we cannot self-regulate fully. We have to understand that technology has something called persuasive design. It is a bajillion dollar industry that is using very sophisticated dopamine manipulation of the human brain to connect and attract our attention. It's called the attention economy. It is very clear. The first place in the world that had cell phone limits and actual bans was schools in Silicon Valley, because the users and the developers of this technology understood the power of their model and how it is used to attract and hook that attention. So I think we can look to the experts and what they're doing with their own children in terms of how to have common sense regulation. The phones need to be shut off in backpacks in the classrooms. They can be taken out if needed, and they need to be away in the hallways and cafeterias. It will have a profound impact on our mental health crisis, on our physical health crisis, including like back pain and obesity and sedentary postures. Kids will get back to socializing and connecting. The entire country of France ban cell phones. And I think that we want to avoid the word ban. It's the healthy use of the technology, not the toxic and not that junk tech.

MG: So we’ve spent a lot of time, and we’ll come back to this in a moment, talking about the classroom, but you've raised a couple of times what happens, you know, in the hallway, what happens in the lunchroom, what happens between those classes. Why do we need to pay more attention to cell phone use in those spaces? Because you would think that the focus would be on making sure that the students are paying attention in the classroom, that you don't want them distracted by YouTube or searching up answers, but you're saying the hallway is a place to really put our attention. Why?

DR. SHIMI KANG: Absolutely. Hallway and eating areas and social areas. So the Canadian and American pediatric societies have made it clear that technology should be avoided during meal time and during times of community connection and togetherness. Stress is the number one health epidemic. Loneliness is predicted to be the next health epidemic. So using your phones in hallways and lunchrooms is increasing stress because we are thinking we can multitask, which we can't. We cannot switch our attention to 30, 40 photographs on Instagram or videos. So that is highly stressful. It is preventing kids and teachers from looking at each other, seeing each other, talking to each other, building those relationships, that community direct impact on our social health. So we have to really, that's the biggest problem, in my opinion, is cell phones in hallways and lunchrooms and social areas because and kids will tell you like, you know, the students who are like it's our grade 12 year, nobody's looking at each other. I was just at an event and kids went on a band trip to Europe and they're at the Vatican and looking at cathedrals and they're all on their phones. They didn't talk to each other the entire plane ride. So, you know, and parents and coaches and teachers are doing it. You know, there's teachers who are saying, look, in my classroom, it's shut off, coaches who are like on my rugby trip, everyone puts it away. So there's so many examples that when there's leadership and when there's an understanding that it's not black and white and that, you know, that the greatest thing we could actually do, and I think it's one of the biggest issues facing our nation, is how are we going to manage technology in this young generation? It is like fire. If we use it well, we will evolve further and farther. If we do not, we will get burned and burn down the village. And we are seeing both. But kids cannot self-regulate against this powerful persuasive design, neither can adults and in fact, seniors. We're seeing a growing problem with seniors and loneliness with their cell phone use as well. So this is a conversation for across all ages.

MG: We talk a lot about digital literacy and the importance of kids learning digital literacy in the classroom, how to interpret what's being told and presented to them, how to be critical thinkers. Is this something that we should be incorporating into the technology, how to manage our relationship with technology?

DR. SHIMI KANG: Absolutely. It's a core part of a 21st century education. It needs to start early. In my research and in my books, I give the example of food, of diet, and I call for a tech diet. So just like food, we have to start early. We have to explain to young people that there's toxic tech, right, tech that leads to fear of missing out, comparing your life to others, bullying, stress, sleep deprivation. You want to avoid that tech use. There's what I call junk food tech where the sugar of our diets. A little bit is okay. Gaming is okay. Looking at social media is okay. But like sugar, you know, you have to limit and monitor it. It's a dessert. Those are hits of dopamine and sugar and can be highly addictive. And then we want to consume the healthy tech, the tech that leads to community building, connection, activism, self-care, breathing apps, journaling apps, sleep, monitoring your steps and exercise. Music is fantastic. And creativity and learning, online learning, master class. So this conversation, like food, needs to be part of our curriculum. Like we teach nutrition, we have to be repetitive. We have to scaffold and have greater limits as younger children and of course, as they grow older. My son in grade 12, right at that point, he does have to learn without me there behind him. But even then, I have to tell my husband and my colleagues when we're out for dinner, hey guys, let's put our phones, and myself all the time.

MG: I was just going to say, given that, we just have about 30 seconds left, go back to what those students said at the very beginning about how they're using technology. They know that what they're doing isn't probably helping them out, but they're still doing it anyway. So for people who would be listening to this and say, yeah, good luck, what would you say to them?

DR. SHIMI KANG: We have to. This is like I said, such an important issue. Just like sugar, we don't need to say good luck. Sugar is everywhere. Sugar is addictive. It's embedded in all the food we eat, but we still have these conversations with our children. So use that metaphor. It’s something we're all familiar with. Teachers, parents, everyone, we all have to try to self-regulate sugar. It's not a pro con debate. And we can be in our children's world both virtual and in person. We have to be there and we have to keep guiding them throughout this really important journey. Their brains are unique. Under 25, it's even harder to self-regulate, and it's the highest risk period for mental health issues and the most important time period to develop coping skills and community.

MG: A lesson for a lot of us, children, students and I think parents as well. Shimi Kang, thank you very much.

DR. SHIMI KANG: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Dr. Shimi Kang is a psychiatrist and author of “The Tech Solution”, also a clinical associate professor at the University of British Columbia. We'd love to hear from you on this. Students, teachers, parents. How do you go about regulating particularly the use of mobile technology in schools and in the classroom? You can email us through that mobile technology, thecurrent@cbc.ca.

[music]

PROMO – HONDURAS

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway. Before we go, we have just a minute to tell you about something coming up tomorrow on this program. Lyzanka Garcia was born in Honduras. Her family fled to the United States when she was a child to escape growing gang violence in Honduras. Lyzanka actually went back to Honduras as a young woman after surviving gender based violence in the United States. And she's now working with the UN's refugee agency and using her experience to help other women in her home country. And she says she wouldn't have it any other way.

SOUNDCLIP

LYZANKA GARCIA: I went through so many things that different people go through. Maybe one day, you go through one or two, two or just one thing. But now being refugee, then being GV Survivor and then being forced displacement, it was just a whole bunch of things that I didn't realize. But I love my country. I understand so many things that people go through and how hard it is to make your life here, to make it through, to have a future, to have an opportunity to be back in your country and have a lot of walls that they can’t let you go through. Then all the danger, all the things that the people go through when they leave in these places in Honduras or the gang, they're still making people to run away from their houses. They have to leave everything behind. And it's not easy. Nobody should leave because they forced them to leave. How they can be doing this over and over and over? So many stories. Up there, the people don’t say anything. They just get out of their houses at night and they just run away. They leave everything behind. Sometimes, you don't understand it and you just said, oh, they just want to go and get a better life. It’s not just better life. It’s to be careful of your life, to take care of you because you're in danger, because you can die, because they can kill you. It’s not just for living another dream or knowing another country. It’s because there is not a way that you can stay here.

MG: An incredible story of a migration and the plight of women in Honduras coming up tomorrow on The Current. That is The Current for this Wednesday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. Before we go, a little bit of news.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL MCCARTNEY: And at the end, the final bulletin is that the Beatles are broken up. And there were two.

MG: A tearful Paul McCartney lamenting the end of the Beatles. Well, now, more than 50 years later, there is a new final Beatles song Ready for Release using Artificial Intelligence. A demo recorded by John Lennon before his death has been re-engineered to allow Paul McCartney to in some ways do a duet with his old bandmate. The song that it will be called is Now and Then, expected to be released later on this year. Is this a good idea? I suppose we'll wait and see when the finished version comes out. In the meantime, this is not artificial intelligence. These are human beings performing. It's Nowhere Man. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

[Song: “Nowhere Man” by the Beatles]

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Wednesday June 14, 2023 Episode Transcript

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