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The Current Transcript for May 1, 2023

Host: Robyn Bresnahan

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Things get really absurd. My mom would forget what a Christmas tree was. She was looking at the tree one Christmas and she was like, was that Kyle's idea to bring a tree in the house? And I was like, sorry? And she was like, you've got to tell your sisters about this. I bet they'll do too. That looks so good.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: If laughter truly is the best medicine, Gavin Crawford jokes he should have cured his mother of Alzheimer's disease. In half an hour, the comedian will tell us how he learned to draw light out of the dark moments of dementia. Then, after 12 days of striking, a tentative agreement has been reached between the federal government and the Public Service Alliance of Canada. That means most federal public servants will be back at work today with one key exception, the Canada Revenue Agency. More on the details of the deal. Plus.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE SPEAKER: Coronation chicken was the dish of the late Queen Elizabeth's coronation. So we do not know whether or not this quiche is going to stick in quite the way the coronation chicken has.

RB: In this case, the chicken came before the egg. A quiche has been chosen as the official dish for the coronation of King Charles this weekend. It follows on from his mother's choice of a creamy curried coronation chicken. In an hour, a history of royal recipes. But we begin in Sudan where evacuation flights have largely ground to a halt, but people are still desperate to flee the violence. Good morning. I'm Robyn Bresnahan, sitting in for Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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SUDAN

Guests: Safia Mustafa, Elsadig Elnour, Sami Hamdi

RB: As the conflict in Sudan enters its third week, some countries’ evacuation flights are coming to an end. Over the weekend, Canada ended its air rescue missions, citing volatile and dangerous conditions on the ground. Though, two Canadian ships are still in operation just off the coast at Port Sudan. Canada conducted a total of six flights airlifting over 500 people. Safia Mustafa was one of them. She grew up in St. Catharine's, Ontario. She is now in Nairobi, Kenya. Safia, good morning.

SAFIA MUSTAFA: Hello.

RB: How were you feeling as you got on that rescue flight on Friday?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: Well, it was a mixture of feelings. It was relief, but also disbelief that we finally actually made it on a flight. And then just thinking about everybody and everything that we're leaving behind. So it was just a lot. It was a lot of emotion.

RB: Who were you on the flight with?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: I was with my mother and my grandmother and a lot of other people. It was very packed.

RB: Mm hmm. How were your mum and your grandmother? How were they feeling about leaving Sudan?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: My grandmother like never really wanted to leave Sudan. She spent her whole life here, so it's really hard for her to leave. But my mother, you know, we made a decision that we need to get out.

RB: And when you say you made a decision to get out, where were you living? Were you living in the capital, Khartoum?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: Yeah. We were living on an island called Tuti Island, which is like right in the centre of the capital. So there was fighting on all sides of us.

RB: And how did you experience that fighting? Did you hunker down or did you actually come quite close? Did you witness it?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: We were lucky in that because as an island, nobody was directly coming in. But there were stray RPG and bullets that hit like our cousins’ homes, our neighbours’ homes. So it was still dangerous. While we weren't directly under attack, we were isolated from supplies. Like we were not able to get supplies. Things were running low. But in the end, we were better off than a lot of other neighbourhoods in Khartoum.

RB: Safia, You grew up in St. Catharine's. You went to university here in Ottawa. How did you end up in Sudan? How long were you there?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: Well, my parents retired here. Two years ago, my dad became ill and I decided I would come and live with them to help. And unfortunately, he passed away three months ago. So it became just me and my mom and my grandma. So I was here taking care of them. They don't have any rel.

RB: And Safia, what were you thinking as the violence began to ramp up?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: I was panicked, honestly, because it's a lot of weight on my shoulders to decide to either risk it and go out of the relative safety of the island and make our way to either Egypt because at that point, they hadn't announced evacuations for Canadians. But I knew the journey would be way too difficult on both my mother and my grandma. And unfortunately, like even my sister-in-law, her grandma passed away on the way to the Egypt border. So it was exactly my fears realized. So our only way was to be evacuated by Canada.

RB: You mentioned that the evacuation flight was absolutely packed. Can you just describe, I mean, when you kind of close your eyes and think about the images from that flight, what do you remember?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: I remember everybody just huddled together, like really trying to make themselves as comfortable as possible. There was luggage on the side. The military personnel were, you could sense some tension in the air. And because of the Turkish military plane that was shut off earlier that day, so you could tell that they were worried about getting everybody out peacefully. And everybody else I think was like disoriented and tired and just happy even though it was extremely uncomfortable, just happy to be on this plane and finally getting out.

RB: This was on Friday night. I mean, understandably, Safia, you still sound exhausted.

SAFIA MUSTAFA: Yeah. We were on the base in Khartoum since Wednesday.

RB: Right. And probably not a lot of sleep.

SAFIA MUSTAFA: No. No sleep, no bathrooms. Like it was just out in the open, right? So it was a pretty horrific condition.

RB: What were you able to take with you?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: I packed a bit of clothing. I packed a photo of my dad and some of his like memorabilia, memorabilia that he received for his work as an ambassador. I packed pillows like to keep my grandma comfy. We packed water and some food that ran out pretty quickly. We were there longer than anticipated. And yeah, just like one shoe.

RB: One shoe.

SAFIA MUSTAFA: Yeah. Because I had to carry all the luggage. My grandma and my mom are not really able to do anything, right? So I had to be very strategic about what I was going to carry.

RB: What kind of help or what kind of welcome did you receive when you got to Kenya?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: It was actually really, really nice. The Canadians on the ground were very welcoming and very nice and they were doing their best to obviously help everybody that was coming in. They seemed like prepared. They had tents set up. There was the ICRC there. They had like food and snacks and water for everybody and wifi set up and chargers for people's phones. So it was a big relief from where we were.

RB: Hmm. So what's next for you and your mom and your grandma?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: Right now, we applied for a visa for my grandma to come to Canada. So we're waiting here in Nairobi for that. When we do receive it, we will most likely go to the UAE just to break up the journey for her because she cannot handle the long periods of sitting. She's already in severe pain from the three or four days of trauma that she experienced at the base and travelling. So we'll go to the UAE, rest there a bit and then hopefully come to Canada.

RB: How are you thinking about the country you're leaving behind?

SAFIA MUSTAFA: I'm very worried. I have lots of family there. I had started to build a life there. I opened a business. My friends that I left behind, the routine. It's a whole life. Like I had a whole life there. And so yeah, it's really difficult to imagine that it's obviously never going to be the same. And we don't know like if we'll ever be able to come back. And the guilt of leaving everybody behind that doesn't have the option of even leaving because either they don't have money or there's no actual physical way out.

RB: I hope you get some rest soon. Safia, thank you for taking the time to talk to me this morning.

SAFIA MUSTAFA: Thank you so much for having me.

RB: Okay. Take care.

SAFIA MUSTAFA: You too.

RB: That was Safia Mustafa who fled Sudan with her mother and grandmother on one of Canada's evacuation flights. We reached her in Nairobi, Kenya. At midnight local time, the two factions in the conflict agreed to a further 72-hour extension to a ceasefire, but then blamed each other as fighting continued. Air raids, shellings and shootings have made it incredibly dangerous for people to leave their homes in Sudan. As a result, acquiring essential supplies like food, water and medicine is very difficult. Many foreign embassies including Canada have shipped their staff out, and now some aid organizations are suspending operations in parts of the country. Elsadig Elnour is the Sudan Country Director for Islamic Relief, an international aid and development charity, and we’ve reached him in Khartoum. Hello.

ELSADIG ELNOUR: Hello.

RB: Just give us a sense of what life is like today for you in Khartoum.

ELSADIG ELNOUR: Okay. In general, we can say that in Khartoum, still the fighting and clashing are ongoing. I can hear now the sound of the anti-aircraft guns and the airstrike bombs. Most of the RSF army are spreading inside the residential area. That is why it is making it very difficult even. During the clashes, the citizens will be caught in between.

RB: So it's very dangerous right now. When you say that you can hear the airstrikes, any idea how close they are to where you are?

ELSADIG ELNOUR: Very close to my area. I can say between four to five kilometres away from me.

RB: And are you hunkering down? I mean, have you been able to leave where you are to go out and get supplies?

ELSADIG ELNOUR: Yes. I have a small shop very close to us where we go quickly. We have been advised not to go outside our homes and on the streets. I'm planning to go out of Khartoum as I have relocated my national staff to a safe place because that is where we have an office there to operate from that area. So the last three days, I was busy with the evacuation of international staff relocation. National staff is part of it.

RB: Right. Okay. So you're evacuating your international staff. Can you just give us a sense of what kind of humanitarian work you were doing before this latest conflict?

ELSADIG ELNOUR: We are well positioned in five states. We are doing education, health and nutrition and we are doing on all fronts. For example, we are doing the cash transfer and the school meal. We are providing medicine and health items and materials.

RB: Okay. So you're providing school meals. You're dealing in health, medicine, education. So what is going to happen? I mean, how fearful are you for the people who you have been helping?

ELSADIG ELNOUR: In one of our offices in central Darfur, all the operations now are suspended for a while because there is insecurity there. And we have around four offices no that the situation is normal. This is opposite Khartoum. Now, we don't have banks. No one can go out and reach the office.

RB: I understand that other essential workers are leaving as well. I mean, can you talk to us about the situation at hospitals, for example? Are doctors fleeing?

ELSADIG ELNOUR: The hospitals, most of them are out of services either due to lack of fuel or some of them were bombarded. And some of them are lacking their personnel because there are no safe routes for the two warring parties. People don't feel that protected to go there. That is why there is a challenge. Even if you have medicine or supplies, you cannot reach these offices. That is why all international NGOs now, they are just starting to think how to deliver.

RB: What about you? Will you stay in Sudan?

ELSADIG ELNOUR: I'm staying in Sudan, of course. If I have to relocate my family, it will be one of the towns very close to Khartoum. The safest one. But I will not go. I will not go out of the country.

RB: Elsadig, can you just give us a sense right now of the humanitarian situation as this violence continues and what is happening on the ground?

ELSADIG ELNOUR: You know, I can say that no one responded to the humanitarian situation. The big need now is in the health sector as many people were killed, many people injured, and there is shortage of medical supplies and medicine in the hospital. And at the same time, even the patients, they don't have food. The situation will be very, very, very critical. If this situation continues, I expect that all the items of food and fuel available now will be consumed by the people and people who have run out of these materials. People are closing their shops and some shops were looted and there is no imported goods or commodities to replenish their goods.

RB: I sincerely hope you can stay safe. I appreciate your time this morning, Elsadig. Thank you.

ELSADIG ELNOUR: Thank you very much.

RB: That was Elsadig Elnour. He's the Sudan country director for the aid group Islamic Relief, and we reached him in the Sudanese capital, Khartoum. Well, Sudan has a long history with conflict. Since gaining independence in 1956, the country has gone through 35 attempted coups, six of which were successful. In the last six decades, thousands of Sudanese have fled the country, causing what's known as a brain drain. Sami Hamdi is the director of the global risk and intelligence organization, International Interest. We've reached him in London, England. Sami, thank you very much for joining us.

SAMI HAMDI: Thank you for having me.

RB: What impact has all this human flight had on Sudan?

SAMI HAMDI: I think that it's important to understand just how much of an impact this brain drain has had on the Sudan. Last year, the United Nations stated that one in three Sudanese had to walk more than an hour just to get medical care. And even when they arrive to have medical care, less than 30% of vital medicines were readily available. If you look at the percentage of health workers to the population, if you look at the rate, it's about four physicians or four doctors for every 10,000 Sudanese in the population. Those were the figures for 2015. So you can imagine what the figures are like today after all the political upheaval, instability and the like. If we're looking at Sudan in the agricultural sector where it has vast lands, vast arable land, in the Arab world, we often call Sudan the garden basket of the region, given its potential to be able to feed more than its own population. As a result of the brain drain of experts in fisheries, experts in agricultural goods, Sudan has never been able to realize or fulfil its potential with food and has had to rely on imports. And one of the things, if you remember, the reasons why people took to the streets to topple Omar al-Bashir was as a result of the Prime Minister Martez Musa when he announced the lifting of subsidies on bread. In other words, they were unable to fulfil the potential of their land, meaning they had to give subsidies on bread. And then they had to lift those subsidies because they couldn't find enough bread to deliver the population. The point here being as you can see in the very essentials of human life, health care, basic foods. The result of the brain drain means Sudan has never been able to maximize its potential and life has been much harder for the Sudanese. And it's only getting harder now with the conflict as most of the hospitals are now shut. They don't have the necessary resources. They don't have fuel and electricity to continue running. And this has resulted in many Sudanese deciding to just up and leave the country whether they are specialists or not.

RB: So Sami, what impact do you reckon that this current conflict is going to have on Sudan's future?

SAMI HAMDI: I think it will have a significant impact primarily because if you look at the narrative from the perspective of the Sudanese, they were under sanctions for 30 years and then they embarked on a revolution to topple the Bashir regime. And then they had anticipations that there would be elections, a democratic transition and the like. And then they were surprised that instead of moving to a democratic transition, instead, a deal was made between parties that were civilian parties that were concerned they would lose elections and between military generals who wanted to stay in power. In other words, instead of a democratic transition, a transition built on a consensus to deny the Sudanese the right to choose their leaders came about instead. And today, we have of course the battling of two generals who are fighting within these dynamics, believing that they can stay in power because the transition is not about democracy. The transition is about who can guarantee certain changes to the state that are desired by certain international powers. So the Sudanese are saying that if after sanctions, after revolution, after trying to take power for ourselves, nothing improves, there's no hope left for this country. And this is why we're seeing a vast exodus, particularly as people anticipate that this fighting might not be restricted to Khartoum, but Darfur might blow up again. The separatist movement might find momentum again in Darfur. And just as we saw when South Sudan separated and we saw a large exodus from Sudan, we saw a jump from hundreds leaving Sudan to thousands leaving Sudan as they felt that the division of South Sudan would result in worse conditions for mainland Sudan. We may see that the Sudanese believe that if this war expands, then Sudan is a failed state, a broken state destined to be divided up into three or four states.

RB: Do you have any hope left for Sudan?

SAMI HAMDI: I think that when it comes to Sudan, the reality is that there needs to be a debate, not necessarily between the Sudanese, but primarily between the international actors who brokered the transition in Sudan. The transition in Sudan is built on the premise that they should prevent what happened in the Arab Spring. In the Arab Spring elections in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt, the prime beneficiaries were the Muslim Brotherhood, were the Islamist. There are concerns that if Sudanese are allowed to vote or are given elections now, then it is likely that a similar pattern will take place as did in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt. And this is why there is an assertion that power should be handed over not just to any civilian government, but to specifically the forces for freedom and change who are made up of leftist communists and the Umma Party, which was once led by a former prime minister, Sadiq al-Mahdi, on the basis that these parties will not win via elections, but we should hand over power to them instead to prevent Islamists from coming to power. These concerns on the part of the international actors are the reason why Hemetti Today, who is leading his militia to fight against the Sudanese army, it's the reason why Hemetti is openly saying to the international community, back me because I will fight the Islamist, the radical Islamists, and I will ensure that they never come back to power, indicating that in the five years that Hemetti has been a key part of this transition, he's understood that this is one of the key things that the international actors want to hear. The only solution for Sudan is a democratic transition built on a mandate. It's about allowing the Sudanese to dictate their fate and accepting the results of any elections on the basis that the only way the army will be forced to hand over power is if there is a mandate because they will no longer have any leg to stand on.

RB: Okay, Sami, we'll have to leave it there for today, but I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

SAMI HAMDI: Thank you.

RB: Sami Hamdi, the director of the global risk and intelligence organization, International Interest. We reached him in London, England. The CBC News is coming up next. And then, Alzheimer's is something that doesn't really scream funny, but a new podcast is exploring how humour and community can help. In six minutes, finding ways to laugh when times get tough. I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you are listening to The Current.

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LET'S NOT BE KIDDING

Guests: Gavin Crawford, Aurora Browne

RB: Hello, I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you're listening to The Current.

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RB: Still to come on the program, a tentative deal in the wee small hours of the morning which will see 120,000 federal public servants back at work this morning. We'll hear what came out of negotiations between the Treasury Board and the Public Service Alliance of Canada. Plus, you might remember Coronation Chicken, that yellow creamy dish introduced to honour Queen Elizabeth's reign. Well, now a new royal repast, this time for King Charles. In half an hour, the ins and outs of the coronation quiche. But first, a comedian, his mother and a devastating diagnosis.

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RB: Gavin Crawford makes a living making people laugh. Regular listeners of the CBC will know him as the host of the quiz show Because News. But when the comedian's mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, Gavin faced a new challenge coming to terms with a disease that is seriously unfunny. All the same, he found a sense of humour helped.

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GAVIN CRAWFORD: What's interesting is my mom often will remember me to me. You know, sometimes she’s like, well, I mean, I don't know if you know my son Gavin. He lives in Toronto. I'm like, oh yeah, how does he like that? One time she said he lives in Toronto with, get this, a guy

FEMALE SPEAKER: [laughing] Get this.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: I know. And I was like, well, okay.

FEMALE SPEAKER: I thought we'd cross that hurdle many years ago.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: I was like, okay, I know. I sort of know what period in time we are. And then I was just like, oh, I guess I'm a lady at one of the coffee clutches finding out about the gay son now. Let's see how this goes.

RB: Gavin Crawford is turning his experience into a new CBC podcast. It's called “Let's Not Be Kidding: A Story About a Comedian, His Mom and Her Dementia.” And it features other entertainers who've gone through something similar with their parents. The first episode is out today. Gavin, good morning.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Good morning, Robyn.

RB: In one of the early episodes, you use the phrase my previous mother. You were talking to fellow comedian Scott Thompson and you said something like, my previous mother didn't like to hold hands. Now she's all about touch. I mean, that was just a stop in the car moment where I had to really think about that. Can you talk to me about that notion of having her disappear while she's still alive?

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Yeah. I mean, it's a very strange thing as anyone who's gone through it knows, but they do kind of become separate people. One of the reasons why I wanted to kind of start making this into something which eventually became a podcast was because I realized that I was starting to forget my previous mother because I was so focussed on the lady that she had become now. And it's very strange because their tastes change and the way they talk about things change. I went to visit her in the care home and the thing that was most of front of to me was that they had her in a pastel pink hoodie. And my mother would never, ever have worn pastel and she was fine with it. She was just, you know, sitting there happily in a pink hoodie. And I was like, get this woman a leopard print. This is not right.

RB: What was your previous mother like?

GAVIN CRAWFORD: She was cool. Not to be stereotypical about it, but, you know, she was my mom. She was my friend. She was always a very strong champion of not just me, but all of her kids and pretty much anyone else's kid. She was an artist and a teacher. She had a very, very strong fight for the underdog streak. So she took in a lot of strays. There was always different kids living in our houses depending on what they were going through. She wouldn't often tell us what they were going through. They were just there and that was fine.

RB: You said she was very cosmopolitan for growing up in small town Alberta. Maybe the hoodie thing is an example of that.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Yeah. I mean, my mom had a very particular sense of style. She used to say like, you know, if you have good hair and good shoes, you can get away with anything. But she always made sure that she was wearing what they were wearing in New York now while everyone in Lethbridge would be wearing that five years from now. She was very particular and she could make anything. She could sew anything. She just always had like too weird style for Southern Alberta.

RB: How did you process her diagnosis when you are naturally wired as a comedian to turn everything into a joke?

GAVIN CRAWFORD: I guess I processed it very slowly. My family and I stayed in denial for a very long time. My mom had gone through like a number of bouts with cancer and had a stem cell transplant. So she kept being like, well, maybe it's chemo brain, you know. But her mother also had Alzheimer's. So we kind of knew. But then, you know, things get really absurd. Like when you're sitting there and my mom would forget what a Christmas tree was. And she was looking at the tree one Christmas and she was like, you know, my husband Kyle is a pretty good designer. And she would be like, was that Kyle's idea to bring a tree in the house? And I was like, sorry? And she's like, you've got to tell your sisters about this. I bet they'll do too. That looks so good. He could make money off of this. And I'm like, yeah, we could call it the Tree of Christmas. Like I mean, even though, you know, it is sad and it unfolds in a very sad way, but it unfolds so slowly that I think anyone has to lean into something. And for me, you know, I have to lean into the absurdity of it just to get through. I mean, you just can't be that sad for 10 long years in a row.

RB: Did your mom know that you were working on a podcast about her Alzheimer's and your relationship with her?

GAVIN CRAWFORD: No. I mean, she didn't know what a podcast is. She was at the stage where she was eating the pages of a magazine. So no, but my mom, if she could hear it and she did know, she would probably be slightly pleased secretly and then tell me, well, you were great on it, but what did you have to put me in there for?

RB: Well, it kind of leads to the title of the podcast, right? Let's not be kidding. This was a phrase that she often used. Can you give us an example of how she might use that?

GAVIN CRAWFORD: You know, my mom didn't like to talk smack, really. She was very waspy, but she would let you know that she knew sort of the bigger picture by just being, like saying let's not be kidding. For example, if I was in a play that wasn't very good or something like that, I'd be like, what did you think, mom? She’d be like, well, you were great, but, you know, let's not be kidding. And that was that. She'd leave it there.

RB: I'd love to bring someone else into the conversation here. Aurora Browne is a comedian and actor. Fans of the Baroness Von Sketch show will know exactly who she is. She's also your friend, Gavin, and is featured in this podcast because her father had dementia. Aurora, good morning to you.

AURORA BROWNE: Good morning. Happy to be here.

RB: Tell us about your dad, Aurora. What's the first thing that comes to mind when you think about him?

AURORA BROWNE: He was a very vital person, always out doing something. He was an architect, He was an athlete, He was a rower. He had gotten his pilot's license and wanted to be in the Air Force. But he was colour-blind, so he couldn't. He was a very out there kind of person, I thought, a real like mid-century, 20th century Canadian white guy. He lived a really fun life and he had a lot of struggles. He actually had some mental issues his whole life. He had undiagnosed bipolar ism or hypo bipolar ism. So he was always somebody who had to kind of deal with his mental state. And when he was diagnosed in middle age, he attacked it very openly. He read a lot. He spoke a lot. He talked to us all about it. So he was the same when it came to this part of his life. He was a very good patient. He always really respected the medical community and he was very sunny about the whole thing. And in fact, he went from being somebody who had quite a temper to somebody pretty sweet. I had a kind of reverse journey that a lot of people have that his little sunny self came out. And he loved to laugh, I will say that. I had never been so happy to be funny as I was during his failing times because I could always make him laugh and it was even more important to do so. It was great.

RB: I want to talk a little bit more about the humour and the way that it played for both of you who are dealing with this with a parent. But let's take a listen to one of your conversations from the podcast.

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AURORA BROWNE: If a person's sense of humour is there, there's a certain structure in their head that is probably around. And if they're making that like old expression kind of thing, it's like, great, you know, I know I can still reach them a little bit. It's funny. Like it's like there's leftover programs, like, you know, his mind is like a loose collection. It's like, you know, for most of his life, he's been a solid bar of the colour of Bob Brown. And now it's like a pointillist painting. It's like it's starting all those little bits, like they're still there, but they're further away from each other, so there's gaps between them. But it's like an execute program kind of sets in and he knows how to like laugh and joke for the second because he remembers doing this. It's like Aurora said a funny thing and that means I laugh and I know what this is. And, you know, like we can be here for a second.

RB: Aurora, can you talk to us a bit more about that? I mean, what did humour give you as you were navigating this disease with your dad?

AURORA BROWNE: Well, it's funny listening to that clip because he was alive when I was saying that. It really did help. I mean, it helped all the way through, actually. If you watch all of Baroness, you can see there's a little bit of a thread of like somebody who was getting cancer and dying, clearly, because I have a bunch of sketches around that. So it helped me while I was doing that. And it was something that we had always connected with even when I was a little, little kid. I think I was about six when I learned that I could tickle him, you know, I could tickle his feet and I could get away with it. Nobody else could. And I think that we always kept that relationship of me being the youngest of five children and always having a little bit of that special sideways connection that you have when you can make somebody laugh, when you share a sense of humour. That was always there. And it really got us through some really awkward and awful moments when it became obvious that he could no longer be by himself and live by himself, that he had to have one of us always at least around until we could get him into long term care. There's a whole host of strange things that happen from, you know, forgetting where he's driving to all kinds of incontinence issues. And you really, really need your sense of humour through that because he had a very difficult time. There were times where before he forgot that he was forgetting and he knew that he was forgetting, it was very distressing for him. So any time that you're in LAUGHTER land, it's a safe place. Even if you're not remembering who the person is in front of you or where exactly everybody is or where you are, when you're laughing together, it is a feeling of home. It is a nice familiar kind of place, I mean, I think for everybody in all times, but especially in that moment, it's so comforting.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: For me, it's like after my mom had become like non-verbal and didn't really do much but like kind of hold your hand, I could still tease her and shoot me that let's not be kidding look. You know, it's just like the little side eye that was like, come on, kid, that she used to do. And all the way through it, like being able to just kind of tease my mom or even if she was like asking the same question like 900 times in an hour, which she didn't know she was doing.

RB: Yeah.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: But, you know, if I started just going off on a tangent and, you know, she would be like, you know, did you remember these, you know, these birch girls? And I'd be like, for the 9000th time. And then I would be like, oh, are those the ones that like drove the Honda Civic to the moon? And then she'd like raise her eyebrows like, come on now. But she'd laugh and, you know, yeah, it really kind of carries you through and carries them through I think a little bit as well.

AURORA BROWNE: And I think it carries one through the rest of your life because when you then go home to your loved ones and you're like, well, this has happened today, you know, to be able to laugh and let it all out is very, very important. And I think both you and I are lucky, Gavin, that The people we're going home to are also very funny people. And I think we still actually quote my dad because he went through this stage of he would ask a question, and even if you gave him an answer that he couldn't have known, he would respond with, I know. And afterwards, we realized that he was probably realizing, oh, that's something I probably should know, and he was trying to cover for it for a little while.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: And you joke about that?

AURORA BROWNE: Now, every time, and he's gone now, but in our house, any time you have to respond with something that you know something of, I know.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Kyle and I do the same thing. Because my mom, she was very loath to admit that she didn't know where she was. And she was very tricky and quite good at hiding it for a very long time. But she would always be like, are we going north? Is this north?

AURORA BROWNE: Yeah.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: And so we were always like, Sure. Any time I want to like just make Kyle laugh or something like that, we'll be in the car and I’ll just go like, is this north? Are we going north right now? Is this north?

AURORA BROWNE: Yeah.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Because it was totally code for like, I don't know where the hell I am.

AURORA BROWNE: Yeah.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Who are you and am I being kidnapped?

AURORA BROWNE: Yeah.

RB: I mean, speaking of directions, you have this great exchange with Jann Arden whose mom also lives with Alzheimer's, Gavin, and she was talking about how her mom would like call in the middle of the night and be like, so one time, your father and I took a trip. From Lethbridge, we drove all the way to Frankfurt. And there's this moment where she was talking about how she'd be like, no, mom, that's not possible. And then something flipped in her. Tell us about that, Gavin.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Yeah. I mean, there's a moment where it's hard. You want to argue, you want to sort of correct them. And my father and I went back and forth with this for a long time with my mom. Like, you know, when she doesn't know who I am or what's going on, you know, your instinct is to be like, my dad would be like, Donna, you know, you've got five kids. There's one of them sitting right there. Whereas I would just sort of be like, oh, you were a scuba diver. Interesting. You know, she was absolutely terrified of the water and never even went in the pool. But one day, she was telling me about her scuba diving adventures. And I just had to go like, oh, cool. What fish did you see? And that's when you realize like that's how you can carry on. You just meet them wherever they are regardless of whether it goes against what's truth. I did actually speak to Dr. Sharon Cohen from the Toronto Memory Institute about like what's the right thing to do? Should you go with them? Should you correct them? And she was kind of like, it's a little bit of a mix, like but for the most part, you kind of want to learn how to meet them there. And I think for me being an improviser, just being able to yes and things makes it very handy because I could just be like, oh, great. Okay. I'm your old high school boyfriend now and I'm okay. Yes. And do you want to go to the Valentine's Day dance? And then she's like, well, maybe. We'll see.

AURORA BROWNE: I think you're totally right that it's the improv comedy. Part of it is particularly suited to it because the first thing that I did when I was researching was read this little list and it said, you know, don't try to correct them because it's so distressing. And I think that there are people, you're right, who it would be very difficult for that, but it was second nature to me. And it became easier for all of our sisters, although it was distressing for sure for all of us. But yeah, you're so used to as an improviser going with crazy scenarios and just rolling with it that it does kind of help. And so maybe everybody should take an improv course the moment they find out that their loved one is…

GAVIN CRAWFORD: But I mean, it is a little bit of oh. Like it's still even if you're yes at it, like there's still like a real, there can be like a real sucker punch.

AURORA BROWNE: yeah.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Like the first time my mom really didn't know who I was, and it was like on Valentine's Day, and I realized she thought I was like her friend from high school and she wanted to go to the dance, you know, and I was like, I thought it was hilarious. But then I came into work and like to tell my bosses that story. And then like in the middle of the story, I just burst into like the worst ugly cry like at work, the worst. And I like slunk off to the bathroom, just like I will return in a moment and we will never speak of this again. But then, I think that's partly what I realized when we were talking about like sort of using humour to deal with these things is even though I'm a comedian and I have comedian brain, for about like the first three or four years while this was happening, I didn't tell any of those stories. Like Kyle and I sort of talked about them, but, you know, because you're like what, am I going to bring this up at a party? Like because you have to preface it with like, my mom has Alzheimer's and then it's like everyone's too sad to hear the funny part, you know what I mean?

AURORA BROWNE: It's such a long walk for that joke.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Yeah. So I mean, that's one of the great things that I realized when we started doing this podcast and I realized, like I thought back to a conversation I was having with Scott in L.A. one time and we were just sort of like commiserating about mothers with dementia. And his mom was in a period where she was kind of relentlessly hitting on him and we were just laughing and laughing, you know. And so I thought back and I thought, you know what? Maybe I'll just reach out to people that I know who generally that's my circle and see if they want to come in and just kind of trade stories. And I think basically, without exception, everybody not only said yes, but pretty keen too. Like were you reluctant to, Aurora, when I said that or were you into it?

AURORA BROWNE: No, not at all. I was into it because it was kind of all that I wanted to talk about. My journey was a lot shorter than yours, just a few years as opposed to a decade, but it's so all-encompassing and it really spanned the whole lockdown period of the pandemic. And there's kind of nothing else that is on your brain as much. And so I was happy to talk about it because I had found more and more that there were people in my circle who it was happening to, you know, sometimes the exact same circumstances, Parkinson's with dementia. And it helped me to talk about it.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: I want to take a moment to bring Robyn back into the conversation because I realize I've taken over this interview and I’m just interviewing Aurora.

RB: Oh, no, this is the beauty.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: So sorry about that.

RB: This is the beauty of listening to the two of you. And actually, I want to play another clip because you both kind of reflect on what you have learned through all of this. So let's just listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

AURORA BROWNE: Life can be sweeter when it's in smaller bits and we have this very small bit. And so I just kind of committed to like making it sweet every moment and telling my sisters that I love them and doing work that I enjoy because we could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Or we could slowly, very, very slowly, the process of a number of years begin to forget everything we've ever known.

AURORA BROWNE: Exactly. So I better enjoy it now.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: I'll take the bus.

AURORA BROWNE: I take the bus as well.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: I was going to say like if it's an option, I'd take the bus.

RB: It's not actually immediately apparent in the first couple of episodes of the podcast, but Gavin, you do go on to lose your mom. And I'm sorry about that. And Aurora, I'm sorry for the loss of your father too. But there's an episode right at the end where you're both, like you can hear the relief in both of your voices. I mean, is that a relief because the person you loved, you saw kind of died while they were still alive? Aurora, is that how you would describe it?

AURORA BROWNE: Oh, that's a good question. The relief is from the big thing, you wondering, that you're always kind of wondering where will this get to has finally been resolved. Especially when I was first staying with him with my sister, I couldn't believe how draining it was always being on call because you never quite knew where things were going to go. At the beginning, he had long stretches during the day where he was fine. And then at any moment, the things would come. And so it was the random, the random shots in the dark that were very difficult and just kind of always, always waiting to hear something more could happen. He could fall and break his hip again, you know. So knowing that all those things were resolved and that I could stop worrying about, as you say, the present dad, and just go back to remembering previous dad who it turns out was forever dad, you know. And it was a bit him being at rest, but it was just more that it was over. I was watching Return of the King last night, and when Frodo drops the ring or when Gond drops into…

GAVIN CRAWFORD: The nerd cry.

AURORA BROWNE: You know, like the nerd cry and he says, you know, it's over, it's done. And it feels a little bit like that.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: I already just started crying because you said forever dad. Like that's exactly, you know, what you're thinking. Like, you know, there's previous Mom and then there was like present mom. But now it's forever mom. And then I'm like, oh yeah, I like. I like the concept of forever mom. But it is weird. I mean, one of the reasons we decided to add a seventh episode, I thought it was going to be done at six, but then, you know, the thing that we knew was going to happen happened. And sort of after, you know, maybe about three months later, I just sort of thought, well, we've done this whole podcast about sort of processing kind of like the long grief of it all. You know, we should probably talk about like what happens after it happens. And it is very weird because they don't tell you that you're going to feel a little bit good.

AURORA BROWNE: Yeah.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: And partly for me, it was just because it's that you don't have to worry about them anymore. And I could tell my mom was scared a lot of the time. It's scary to not know who you are and where you are. And I just didn't want her to be scared anymore.

AURORA BROWNE: Yeah. I didn't want my dad to be so unable from being a guy who would like captain the ship and, you know, done all these things and has always, to see him so reduced and frustrated a lot of the time was hard.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Yeah. And that's where you start to think like yeah, I'll take the bus.

AURORA BROWNE: Oh yeah.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: You know.

AURORA BROWNE: Oh yeah. I'll take dying in battle. I'll go to the field. Yeah. Just to note that again.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: That’s fine with me. But then I'm like, oh, I better write that down. Or if there's any, yeah, if you are a bus driver and you see me walking around downtown with no pants on, feel free to just speed up.

[all laughing]

AURORA BROWNE: Noted.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: I’m a terrible person.

RB: You are not. So Gavin, I just wanted to ask you, I mean, despite the relief that you did feel after your mother died, when do you find that the grief comes back and hits you hard?

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Just little random times watching a weird commercial and a horse will run across the beach or something and that will make me cry. You know, I don't know. I don't even know if I've gotten there yet. I've cried in so many different ways and so many different places because this disease just, you lose things in such fits and starts over such a long period of time. It's not that I don't have those moments of like really heavy grief, but there’s weird things that happen to you when, you know, I walk past a shoe store and they're having a sale and I'm like, I should call my mom and like she would love the sale. And then you realize like, oh, I can't. That happened nine years ago. She doesn't know what a sale is. So I've already been through those feelings of, oh, that person isn't here for me anymore in a way. Now she is almost more present because now I can just look at a tree that's blowing in the wind and be like, oh, there's my mom waving at me, hey, mom or whatever. I can pretend she's with me in spirit in an easier way than I could when I'm like, she's with me in spirit, but her body is in that care home.

AURORA BROWNE: Mm.

RB: Well, listening to both of your stories on this podcast, it's both brutal and beautiful. I guess as Glennon Doyle the author would say, brutiful. But I really enjoyed it and I'm so glad that we had this chance to talk about it. So thank you.

GAVIN CRAWFORD: Thanks very much, Robyn.

AURORA BROWNE: Thank you.

RB: Comedian Gavin Crawford is the host of the new CBC podcast “Let's Not Be Kidding”. Aurora Browne is an actor and comedian who is featured in the series. The first episode is out today. You can hear it on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, coming up after the regional update, a tentative deal was reached in the early hours of this morning between the federal government and the Public Service Alliance of Canada. We'll hear the details and talk about the table it sets for future negotiations with other unions. I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you are listening to The Current.

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PSAC STRIKE ENDS

Guest: Lori Turnbull

RB: I'm Robyn Bresnahan, sitting in for Matt Galloway and this is The Current. In Ottawa today, there's a rainfall warning. But in political terms, the skies have cleared in a dispute that has seen federal workers walking picket lines for the past 12 days. In the early hours of this morning, a tentative agreement was reached between the federal government and the Public Service Alliance of Canada. That means 120,000 Treasury Board workers are now back on the job today. Though, 35,000 Canada Revenue Agency employees remain on strike. Carolyn Eaves works with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada as a case processing officer, and Crofton Steers is a communications manager with the Department of Justice. Here's how they reacted to the deal on the CBC's Ottawa Morning program.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROLYN EAVES: Oh my gosh, I can't believe it's actually happening. This is amazing.

CROFTON STEERS: I'd say I'm happily frazzled. It took a little bit of time for my brain to start processing this, but I'm really happy and I think we're all really happy to be going back to work.

RB: Well, joining us now, Lori Turnbull, the director of Dalhousie University’s School of Public Administration. Lori, good morning to you.

LORI TURNBULL: Good morning, Robyn.

RB: What was your reaction when you heard about this deal?

LORI TURNBULL: Oh, to me, it is always good news when a strike is over. I can remember my parents being on strike at the same time once. And boy, it's nice when you get to that point of just not having to do this anymore. I mean, it'll be interesting to see what the vote is. But I think what has been attained here is very impressive for peace.

RB: Right? Because we should mention this is still a tentative deal. It still has to be ratified by members of the Public Service Alliance of Canada. I mean, are you expecting any hitches there or do you reckon it's going to be rubberstamped pretty quickly?

LORI TURNBULL: I never presume anybody's vote or anybody's decision. But if I was a betting person, I would say this is going to go over quite well with membership. I mean, you know, 12.6% is not exactly the 13.5 that they had asked for originally, but it's awfully close and it's considerably higher than what the federal government had come in with. The other issue, of course, is the remote work issue and the fact that the union didn't get exactly what it wanted there. But I think when you're looking at the amount that came forward in the offer in terms of a wage increase, that's quite strong. And at least, you know, not totally, there's nothing preventing a possible deal on remote work down the road. It looks like their proposal is saying we'd be able to negotiate that on a case by case basis. So it's not like it's shut down. It just sort of leaves the decision with the federal government, I think, at this point.

RB: Well, let's stick with wages just for a second before we talk about some of the other points in the deal. But 12.6% over four years, how does that compare to where the two sides started?

LORI TURNBULL: So the two sides started with 13.5 over three years on the union’s side and 9% over three years on the federal government’s side. And so this is, I would say, quite impressive for the union to have gotten this from the federal government. Now, I know the time period is four years rather than three years, but still, I think the real point and if you look at the language on the union website, the real point is about trying to help workers to manage inflation. And so if this is going to be a considerable enough amount that you're going to see a difference, you're going to feel a difference, you know, when you're paid at the end of the month, you're going to kind of feel that help in terms of managing the inflation crisis and also the fact that there is I think a $2500 bonus that's pensionable. And so those sorts of things are things that, you know, hopefully people are going to feel the difference and then that can help membership to feel like, you know what, we didn't stand on the picket line for nothing. We got something out of this.

RB: With regards to the new language around remote working, what does it say?

LORI TURNBULL: So it looks to me like it says that there's not going to be negotiation for remote work by group. It would be by individual, and this would be something that would be, you know, kind of figured out on a case by case basis depending on what the job is. And there's also language around setting up a kind of, I think, a focus group or a working group around figuring out the future of remote work. So what this signals to me is that the federal government is not ready to do this writ large right now, not necessarily through this collective bargaining process. And I think that kind of says something about what other unions can expect as well. This is not going to be the moment that the federal government negotiates remote work as a part of the collective bargaining process union by union. That's not the way they want to do it. They want to have more conversations. And so I mean, to me, it sort of felt like this is a really key moment in the kind of downside of COVID-19 as people got used to working remotely, is that the moment to seize this opportunity as something that could be really innovative and interesting for the public service and what does the federal government want to do about that. But it looks like no, they're going to wait a little longer if they go this route at all.

RB: What about using outside contractors? This is one of the four sticking points that was left. The union had been asking for zero outside contractors to be used. Did you think that that was realistic?

LORI TURNBULL: No, because as we know, there's quite a bit of use of government contracting. And so to think that that wasn't going to be the case at all, I mean, that would just be a really difficult thing to think about and figure out and implement. But I think what they've got is a deal around the size of the public service. And not with respect to specific complement, but essentially, it's you can't contract out a job that you're going to lay somebody off and they could have done that work. So I think there’s some mind there to thinking about preserving the work of the public service. And so you can't lay off somebody and then contract out the work.

RB: You heard the relief of those two public servants speaking on Ottawa Morning at the very beginning here. But this deal does not apply to the 35,000 workers at the Canada Revenue Agency. They're going to continue strike action. Why do you think a deal was unable to be reached there?

LORI TURNBULL: I mean, that might be, I don't know, I mean, there could be more of a kind of this is tax season. They may feel that they're able to get something else. There might be a sticking point that they feel like they're going to be able to get movement on. And they're going to dig in and hold on because today's the day that we're supposed to file our taxes and this is going to be a real crunch period now, right? Like at this point, CRA workers are really in a position where the Canadians are going to feel the fact that they're not at work.

RB: Is this going to mean anything in particular for Canadians who are still filing their taxes? Deadline's today, isn't it?

LORI TURNBULL: Yeah. And so I think, you know, there's going to be some speculation about how this is all going to play out. We've been told up until this point that there will be no extensions even though CRA workers are on the picket line. And so we'll see how that plays out. But I mean, at this point, if you're filing, you know, you're going to have long wait times in terms of getting assistance. You might. Who knows when you're going to get your rebate. And so again, like this puts the CRA workers in a particularly, you know, impactful position at this point, given the timing.

RB: Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland is ultimately the one who is pulling the purse strings. Do you expect that she's going to give a bump of 12% in budgets to cover the higher wage costs? Or do you think that departments are going to have to absorb the costs and make cuts elsewhere?

LORI TURNBULL: Well, we knew that there was kind of an idea that there was going to be some cuts coming. And this passed budget and the language that's coming from the federal government has indicated that there's going to be something, you know, they're going in to look for, to find efficiencies somewhere. And so then the question is whether or not the 12.6% is going to be able to be captured through the kinds of cuts that you could make without, you know, cutting big programs and cutting positions. And so the other question is if they end up doing a similar thing with other unions that are negotiating, that's a significant chunk of change. And so where is this going to be found? And so I'm sure that's going to be a conversation that's being put to the finance minister, you know, very soon.

RB: It depends who's in government next as well. I mean, do you see the possibility of layoffs?

LORI TURNBULL: I mean, they have said that they're going to try to find the savings they need to find without going that way. At the same time, there's the size of the public service and the best way to design the public service in terms of the size that it is and the functions that it's trying to play. That's always an open question. And some are going to say, look, you know, we have to be thinking more strategically about the role of the public service, the advice function. How are we going to play those sorts of things out, especially if we start thinking about questions like remote work? Can you imagine a scenario where there is more flexible work and what that would do to the size of the public service? So I don't think we could hive off the size question from the other things around function and form because I think like there's probably going to be a broader strategic conversation about the role that the public service plays.

RB: Mm hmm. Lori, I mean, normally you're in Halifax when you're at Dalhousie University, but I think we've reached you in Ottawa this morning. That's where I am too. Sometimes we joke about the Ottawa bubble kind of over us, but I'm wondering how you think that this strike has been seen outside of Ottawa, but also outside of the public service itself.

LORI TURNBULL: So outside Ottawa, I mean, I totally know what you're saying about the Ottawa bubble, but I think this union, the membership is spread across the country. So even in Atlantic Canada, there are 18,000 PSAC workers. And so it's not like there aren't picket lines in other places or there haven't been picket lines in other places. And the other thing too is that the effects of the strike, you know, having the issues with respect to passports, your tax rebate, those things are, you know, across populations, across departments, across agencies. And so I don't think it was an Ottawa specific kind of experience for anybody. That said, I think how other unions see this, you know, if they're looking at these negotiations and saying, I'm having a miserable time with the cost of living too. Where is my 12.6% over four years? If you're not going to get that, you know, there could be a sense of, hey, you know, what is the federal government going to do for the rest of us?

RB: Who do you think comes out of this as the victor?

LORI TURNBULL: Again, that is a very difficult question. I think honestly, the fact that it's not going on longer I think is a win for both sides. I think the 12.6%, that's got to be seen as a win-win for the union. I can't see it any other way. But I also think the federal government got out of this without, if they want to have a broader dialogue about a shift to more telework or a different kind of work, they didn't avoid that conversation with this. That is not going anywhere. We need to have that conversation. But they managed not to have to, you know, get into it as part of a collective bargaining process, which could have meant they're doing things at times they don't want to do them. And so a more strategic conversation that happens over the medium to long term might be the best way to figure out how we're going to change things.

RB: Okay. Lori, really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

LORI TURNBULL: Thank you too. Take care.

RB: That’s Lori Turnbull, the director of Dalhousie University’s School of Public Administration.

[music]

AAJU PETER PROMO

RB: I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you are listening to The Current. On tomorrow's program, a conversation you will not want to miss. Matt Galloway will be speaking to Aaju Peter. She's an Inuk lawyer, activist, artist and musician who's originally from Greenland, but now makes her home in the Canadian Arctic. And she is the subject of a powerful new documentary that’s screening at the Hot Docs Film Festival in Toronto. It's called Twice Colonized, and it follows her as she advocates for indigenous people around the world. It's also extremely personal and raw, revealing her struggles with trauma and grief. Here's some of what she told Matt about why it was important for her to be so open.

SOUNDCLIP

AAJU PETER: You feel much more comfortable when you're around people who are not pretending to be somebody, who are not pretending. I also wanted the producer, Lynn, to film. I demanded you have to film all the good and all the bad and everything in between. I don't want to be only seen as going to Europe and protests. I don't want to be only seen as paragliding in Mexico and doing my yoga. Those are all nice things, right? But as indigenous women, I think as indigenous peoples, we have to do 200% better every day. And we go through all the hardships because of our families, because of things that are happening, because we need to spread ourselves around so much. I wanted to absolutely be truthful, to show I have so many faults, but that doesn't stop me. You can still do good things and advocate even if you're going through a hard time.

RB: That was Inuk lawyer and activist Aaju Peter. And you can hear her conversation with Matt Galloway on tomorrow's program.

CORONATION FOOD

Guest: Rachel Rich

RB: This Saturday will mark the first coronation of a British monarch in 70 years. Millions of people are expected to watch the ceremony as King Charles III is crowned alongside Camilla, the queen consort. Street parties are being planned across the U.K. and people are being invited to cook the official recipe of the coronation. It's a quiche replete with tarragon, spinach and what the Brits call broad beans, also known as fava beans. Freelance journalist Rose de Larrabeiti asked Londoners for their thoughts on the dish.

SOUNDCLIP

ROSE DE LARRABEITI: What do you think of the coronation quiche?

MALE SPEAKER: Well, I like the sound of tarragon, but I'm not massively a fan of quiche anyway, to be honest with you. So it's probably not on for me. It just seems a bit odd. It seems like a really wet food.

FEMALE SPEAKER: I shall be trying it because I'm out for lunch next Friday with some friends and we will be creating our own coronation quiche. And I'm looking forward to it. And then we'll all be waving our flags on Saturday. However, I do love Coronation chicken. That was made for the Queen's coronation in 1953, which I watched on television as a three-year-old.

GBENGA ALAKA: My name is Gbenga Alaka. I’m a Nigerian, from Africa. Now, we followed this coronation event for some time. The whole idea of she asking for a special dish, What do you call it? Quiche?

ROSE DE LARRABEITI: Yeah. It’s like a tart. A French dish, I guess.

GBENGA ALAKA: Yeah. You know, the event comes once in a lifetime. So I think if she is going to do something like that, it’s to add value to that day. Because when you write history, you will refer to that particular dish in honour of Queen Camilla or in honour of the King whom we are all looking forward to that coronation. If you look at some of the British recipe, some are borrowed from the French. Even some of the words you use here, they’re French words. Everybody has come to stay, right?

ROSE DE LARRABEITI: Yeah. Like quiche.

GBENGA ALAKA: Yeah. So we look at it from that angle. Let's see what happens post-coronation.

ROSE DE LARRABEITI: The question is what do you think about the coronation quiche?

MALE SPEAKER: Awful, awful, awful, awful, awful. Yeah. I wouldn't like any of that at all, actually, to be honest. So God knows it's probably one of Charlie's mad recipes. Yeah. I'm not a great fan of spinach or broad beans.

ROSE DE LARRABEITI: But you're going to be watching.

MALE SPEAKER: I will watch, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, my girlfriend and I, I've got to wake her up so that she can actually watch it live on the CBC. Well, it starts at 10, I think, here in the morning. So that would be about two in the morning in Vancouver. Yeah. So she's a brave woman. She likes the royalty, though. She loves the royals. Yeah. So despite the fact she's of Dutch extraction.

RB: Those are Londoners commenting on the coronation quiche. Rachael Rich is a food historian at Leeds Beckett University who specializes in the history of royal dining in Georgian England and is on the line now. Hello, Rachel.

RACHEL RICH: Hello. Hi.

RB: You heard that last chap say awful to describe what he thought about the quiche. What do you think of it?

RACHEL RICH: I’m with him, to be honest. I've read the recipe a few times and it doesn't sound great to me.

RB: Oh, why not?

RACHEL RICH: Well, broad beans and a quiche is a very strange texture choice. Quiche is not very fashionable right now either. I don't think. So I'm not sure why they went for that.

RB: In a recent article for The Conversation, you actually asked the question What is a French staple doing at the centre of this table? I mean, do you have any guesses on the answer to that?

RACHEL RICH: I mean, I have a lot of guesses and some background knowledge as well. And I think one of the people you interviewed just before me had mentioned that French influence is very prevalent in British royal diets, and that goes all the way back to the 17th and 18th centuries. So it makes sense in one way that it should be a quiche. But actually, if you look at the history of royal dining, they were eating much more elegant French food, whereas a quiche is quite mundane. I think it's quite sort of, I don't know, it's boring lunchtime food rather than elegant royal festive food.

RB: But it also has a deeper meaning, though, right? Coronation food is said to offer a reflection of the time or a telling glimpse into the values of the new monarch. So what do you think that Quiche says about the king?

RACHEL RICH: I think it probably tells us two things. One that the king would like us to be told and one which is probably a little bit more accidental. I think King Charles is probably trying to tell us something about his commitment to local produce. So broad beans in Britain is something that's locally grown. Spinach can be locally grown. The king is committed to eating less meat than you might associate with the diet of a monarch to being quite healthy and eating moderately rather than luxuriously. So I think that's what he's trying to tell us. But I think accidentally, this quiche might also be telling us something about a nation in crisis which is searching for an identity. I don't think there's a confident message about Britishness in that coronation quiche.

RB: That's so interesting. Tell us more about that. A quiche is telling us a story about a nation in crisis. How so?

RACHEL RICH: Well, I'm just thinking about Queen Elizabeth II and the coronation chicken, which was the kind of signature dish, I guess, of the last British monarch's coronation. So I don't know how much Canadian listeners would know about coronation, or coronation chicken, sorry. Coronation Chicken is flavoured with sort of Indian inspired curry spices. Now, Elizabeth was crowned at a time when the British still felt confident about their place globally within an empire which was turning into a commonwealth, which was going to be a powerful part of Britain's presence in the world. Obviously, now we feel much more ambivalent about the Commonwealth and people are much more interested in the dark legacy of the British Empire. And so the quiche is sort of turning in on itself a little bit. It's a very kind of European modest, not heavily spiced food. And it's almost like there's a fear of kind of signalling what Britain used to be. And quite rightly, I think, because the monarchy's been accused of all sorts of variations of racism in recent years. And so they probably don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation during the coronation.

RB: Right. So you're kind of saying that this is a bit of a safe bet, but it's still I mean, you were grossed out by the broad beans in a quiche, but it's actually the eggs that social media seems to be in an uproar about because of the soaring prices and the shortages on supermarket shelves. There was one tweet that I read in The Independent newspaper that said “coronation quiche when there's an egg shortage? They're so tone deaf. It's comical.” I mean, what do you make of that?

RACHEL RICH: I think it's really hard because I think we are very critical of the monarchy. People, you know, a small number of British people love them. A lot of people are just completely indifferent. And I think that these recipes like the coronation quiche are just a desperate attempt to get people's attention. I think you're right about the price of eggs being a bit off putting to a lot of people. But I can't imagine what else they could have done. You know, all food prices are going up in the U.K. I think it's similar in Canada right now, but certainly, here, people are feeling the pinch. The coronation was supposed to be done in a low key way in recognition of this cost of living crisis. But there was a big news story on the weekend about the 250 million bill, £250 million bill for security on Coronation Day next weekend. So I think people might be justifiably horrified at how much this is costing them. You know, the eggs are the least of it.

RB: Hmm. Had you been advised, Rachael, just say that the palace came to you and said, you know, we really need to get a coronation dish that's going to signal the time, the time right now, the sign of the times. I mean, what would you have recommended instead of a quiche?

RACHEL RICH: I'm glad I didn't have to answer that question, but I wonder whether something that was actually a bit more multicultural might have been a more interesting and braver choice. Now, in the U.K., and anyone can look at this if they're interested, there is an official coronation website and it has more than just coronation quiche in terms of recipes that have been sort of endorsed, I guess, as coronation celebration meals. One of them is prawn tacos or shrimp tacos, I should say. One of them is an eggplant dish, a kind of a curried eggplant dish. One of them is a Chinese style rack of lamb. So they kind of tonally, I think, with the idea of signalling that Britain is a diverse, a multicultural nation, a nation that embraces the food cultures of people from all over the world who've come here. And so I don't know why the one that ended up really being promoted in the end by the royal couple was this quiche, but it feels to me like too much of a safe bet.

RB: Yeah. I take it you're not going to be making this quiche.

RACHEL RICH: No, I'm not. Although in fairness, I'm not going to try any of the other recipes on the website either.

RB: All right. Are you going to watch anyway? Are you going to watch the coronation?

RACHEL RICH: I might have a peek. I am not going to spend my whole Saturday watching.

RB: Rachel, great to talk to you this morning. Thank you.

RACHEL RICH: Thanks a lot. Take care.

RB: You too. That's Rachel Rich, a food historian at Leeds Beckett University focusing on the history of royal dining in Georgian England. Well, that is our program for today. Q is coming up next on CBC Radio One. But some music now with a nod to our last interview there and the forthcoming coronation. Here is Tom Petty with “It's Good To Be King”. I'm Robyn Bresnahan. Matt Galloway is going to be back tomorrow. Thanks very much for listening to The Current.

[Song: “It’s Good to be King” by Tom Petty]

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Monday May 1, 2023 Episode Transcript

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