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The Current Transcript for April 25, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

DUNCAN MCCUE: At that early time, there were producers, some of whom were really interested to hear my ideas. And there were others who would say, didn't you pitch a residential school story last year? Like why are you pitching another one? There were still those old school producers who did not see our stories as newsworthy, and that was frustrating as hell.

MATT GALLOWAY: Duncan McCue has spent his career making sure the stories of Indigenous people in Canada are told and told with the community's voices front and centre. This week, the longtime CBC journalist is leaving the public broadcaster to help train the next generation of Indigenous journalists. In 30 minutes, Duncan reflects on the difference between being a storyteller and a story taker and the role that journalism can play on the road to reconciliation. Also this morning, a glimmer of relief perhaps for passengers dreading another busy travel season of cancelled flights and luggage that disappears into the void. How a revamped Passenger Bill of Rights aims to put airlines on the hook for service disruptions. And later.

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ANDREA CHEONG: How can you tell when something is made cheaply or badly? Let me give you a very quick answer. Turn the clothes inside out. If it's as beautiful inside as it is outside, that is a very good indication.

MG: Fast fashion is cheap and disposable, which means the flimsy garments you're buying often end up in landfill. In an hour, the push for mindful shopping in an era of throwaway clothing. We start, though, with the scramble to get Canadians out of a chaotic situation in Sudan. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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SUDAN EVACUATIONS :

Guests: Saydah Mustafa, Hisham Mohamed, Nicholas Coghlan

MG: After more than a week of fighting, a 72-hour ceasefire is now in effect in Sudan. At least 400 people have been killed in the conflict. Thousands more are injured. And for days, people have been scrambling to flee the country. But getting out has not been easy. Canada has already removed its diplomats from Sudan, but there are currently more than 1400 Canadians who have registered with the federal government as being in that country. The actual number is likely much higher. On Sunday, 58 Canadians were airlifted out on a German plane, and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said yesterday that his government is working to see more people leave. Saydah Mustafa is a Sudanese-Canadian trying to flee the country. We have reached her in Khartoum. Saydah, hello.

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: Hi.

MG: What is it like in Khartoum right now?

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: Well, since yesterday, I guess you've heard of a ceasefire happening for about 72 hours. And I can assure you that the ceasefire has not been respected, as we've heard a lot of shots and fighting going on outside, especially in the area of Khartoum, which is the heart of all the problems. And we just hope that things get better, but we don't see any improvement whatsoever.

MG: How close is that to you, where you're hearing the shots?

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: I could say that it's like two blocks away maybe, within our neighbourhood. Yes, it's quite calmer here relative to the other parts of Khartoum, but still there's still fighting going on.

MG: What's it been like for the last few days? Before the ceasefire took hold such as it is, what has it been like over the last couple of days?

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: Yeah. It's been crazy. It has been scary. It has been traumatizing. There was just a lot of things going on outside. People did not know what to do. People would go into random people's houses for shelter. People would bomb houses, would shoot down windows, would rob people. And recently, there's also been a prison break. So we kind of have prisoners on the loose committing all these kinds of crimes, robbing people, threatening them, blackmailing. And everyone's just kind of been trying to stay home, but it's just difficult knowing that, you know, people around you are in danger and you can't really contain yourselves. So you kind of want to take the risk and flee the country rather than having to just kind of die in silence or die knowing that you haven't tried anything to kind of save yourself and the people around you.

MG: And so your plan is to get out. Tell me a little bit about that and where you're going to go and how you're going to get there.

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: All right. So we have multiple plans. Unfortunately, we don't know how they're going to work out. So our first plan was to of course contact the Canadian government, urge them to find a way to send us out. And they have done that. They have created evacuation plans. But unfortunately, they are carrying out these evacuations at a military base that's in Omdurman. And these require bridges for you to cross. And the bridges are the sites that have the most fighting and they have the most like weaponry used. And it's like the worst area you could possibly go through, especially for people living in Khartoum because Omdurman is a whole different city. So people living in Khartoum right now are trying to negotiate some way to get to Omdurman where the military base is, but there's no luck so far from what I'm seeing on the WhatsApp group chat. And there's a second plan which people are using Port Sudan as a vessel to get to Saudi Arabia through ships, and that seems to work out. But again, there is fighting en route to Port Sudan since it's about an 11-hour drive from Khartoum. And the only way you can get there is through buses or cars. You can't get there through any planes since all airports are down. And the third plan is people fleeing to either Ethiopia, Djibouti or Egypt through buses as well. But these are kind of the options available, but each one of them just has their own obstacles. And it's just been really challenging for us to figure out which one works out.

MG: None of them sound like good options. What are you going to do?

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: So we're trying to see if we can make it to Egypt right now. But unfortunately, we have like a bus plan going on and we were supposed to leave at 9 a.m. and now it's about 12:20. So the bus is nowhere to be found. We don't know anything. We're still stranded in the house and we're just hoping to be patient. Yesterday, we also attempted to flee to Egypt and it turned out that we got scammed by the bus driver. And this whole trip was a scam, basically trying to rob us off of our money. So we just ended up like going to a relative's house and having to spend the night there up until we figure something out.

MG: You mentioned, you know, what the government, the Canadian government was doing in terms of trying to get people who are saying that they needed to get to a certain place. Have you heard much from the Canadian government in terms of what you should be doing right now?

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: See, the only thing that I've heard was from Twitter. There was a Twitter page. I guess the Canadian government was interacting directly with them. And I decided to message that Twitter page. And then they kind of instructed me and they forwarded me an email that the Canadian government sent them with the details of the location and the timing and the citizens allowed to board the plane and who the priority goes to. But directly from the Canadian government, all they’ve told me is that there is an evacuation plan. And I’ve kind of like had to find my own way to investigate what's happening, but it's just too difficult. I can't make it to Omdurman. There's no way I'll be able to make it there without there being utmost fears for my life because it’s just a very dangerous place to be in.

MG: This sounds terrifying.

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: Yes, it is, unfortunately.

MG: I'm really sorry you're stuck right in the middle of it. I wish you the best of luck. Try and stay safe, please. But it's really important to hear from you, so I really appreciate you talking to us.

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

MG: Take care and good luck.

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: Thank you so much. You too.

Thanks. Bye bye.

SAYDAH MUSTAFA: Bye bye.

MG: Saydah Mustafa is a Sudanese-Canadian studying medicine in Sudan. We reached her in Khartoum. Hisham Mohamed is from Welland, Ontario. He was in Sudan visiting family when fighting erupted. He recently made it to Cairo in Egypt. Hisham, how are you doing?

HISHAM MOHAMED: Good, good. Thanks for having me, Matt.

MG: How did you get to Egypt?

HISHAM MOHAMED: Well, it was quite a journey. I took cars, I took motorcycles, buses until I finally made it to the border.

MG: How dangerous was that trip?

HISHAM MOHAMED: It is very dangerous and it is challenging. You go from a checkpoint towards a checkpoint and between, you know, you're hoping nothing will erupt or no fight is going to go until you reach the next step. And you take it from there step by step.

MG: How long did it take you?

HISHAM MOHAMED: It took me about three days to reach the border. You can imagine how was it.

MG: What stands out to you in terms of the moment that you'll never forget on that trip out of Sudan?

HISHAM MOHAMED: The day before I decided to make a move, as you know, there was no water, no power, nothing. And we were trying to get from the neighbourhood out just to, you know, look for water and get water. And that's when they stopped us, military people and talking to us in another car. And they just shot the other guy in the car. I will never forget that, that incident.

MG: That was the moment where you realized you had to leave.

HISHAM MOHAMED: Exactly. That's when I realized, you know, just for water that's happening, there is no way I can stay here and wait. That's when I decided I’m going to make dangerous journey and hopefully I will make it.

MG: What did you hear? Have you heard anything from Canadian officials about how to get out, about what you should be doing?

HISHAM MOHAMED: You know, Matt, from the first day, I contacted the Foreign Affairs and I called them on the hotline. And the first time on Saturday night I talked to them, they said, just register your name. We’re aware of the situation and we don't have any plan yet for evacuation or anything. Just take a shelter and stay safe. That was the first day I said, okay, well, yeah, and stayed the second day and the third day when all that stuff was happening. Then I was calling them every night and I said, how I'm going to stay in a safe shelter when there is nothing? When I went out, there is danger there. There is no plan, no safe house, nothing? They said nothing now, sorry. After that I went and I never called them back. And until now, nothing happened. They have my email, my phone number. Nobody contacted me. Nothing happened, Matt.

MG: It just feels like you're on your own.

HISHAM MOHAMED: Yes. Not even just a call to say how are you guys doing? Are you guys making it? How are you making it? Nothing. Nothing. Until now, they don't even know if I’m still in Sudan or out or anywhere.

MG: What kind of help would you want from the government right now?

HISHAM MOHAMED: At least those people on the list, give them a call. See where they are. How are they. And at list they should plan, make a safe house, try to get water and stuff like this. Even if you don't have evacuation plan, get those people in a safe place, give them water, give them stuff. A lot of foreign countries know. I was so surprised from Canada, they didn't do nothing. The French people, we hear that this is a lot of people. They took their people out of Sudan. They have them. But we are there like, you know, we are just alone. There’s nothing, nothing behind us.

MG: And you still have family that's still in Sudan and they're trying to get out, right?

HISHAM MOHAMED: That's correct. Yes.

MG: Where are they right now?

HISHAM MOHAMED: Right now, I don't know exactly, but they're in the middle of the way to the border.

MG: They're on their way to the border.

HISHAM MOHAMED: Yes.

MG: But you don't know where they are.

HISHAM MOHAMED: Yeah. They've been now on the way for the last two days.

MG: That must be really hard just waiting for them to try and get free.

HISHAM MOHAMED: Absolutely. It's terrifying. I get very emotional. Mental crisis. I’m Sorry.

MG: No, no, no. It's okay. You've been through a lot. I mean, you would never have thought. You're there visiting family, and you would have never thought something like this would have happened, right?

HISHAM MOHAMED: Exactly, because I was supposed to come back on Tuesday. I was supposed to leave Khartoum coming back to Canada and now that's happened. I'm sorry.

MG: So you'll wait now in Cairo for your family to meet you and then you'll head home?

HISHAM MOHAMED: Yes, Correct. I'm going to wait for them until they make it. And, you know, I just would like to have an organization, those seeking refuge, you know, because at the border, there's nothing. The Egyptians are not providing any help for people crossing the border. And even in the border, Mat, I’m lucky that I’m a Canadian citizen. Those Sudanese, you know, there is a lot of troubles just to cross the border because well, they don't have a valid visa or a valid passport. I mean, I saw a family of a woman and two kids. They came back. They didn't allow them to cross the border.

MG: They were turned back.

HISHAM MOHAMED: Yeah. They turned them back because they don't have visa or their passport was invalid. And the Egyptians are just turning back. That's what's terrifying.

MG: I'm really glad to talk to you. I'm glad that you're safe. And I hope your family gets across that border really soon. Hisham, thank you very much.

HISHAM MOHAMED: Thanks, Matt, for. having me.

MG: Yeah. Take care of yourself, Okay?

HISHAM MOHAMED: Thanks.

MG: Hisham Mohamed is from Welland, Ontario. We reached him in Cairo, Egypt. Nicholas Coghlan was Canada's first resident diplomat in Khartoum from 2000 through 2003. 10 years later, he oversaw an evacuation from South Sudan as Canada's first ambassador to that country. Nicholas, good morning to you.

NICHOLAS COGHLAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of what you heard from Hisham and Saydah? It sounds like an absolutely desperate situation.

NICHOLAS COGHLAN: Well, I mean, very powerful emotional testimony. My heart goes out to both of them and my admiration to both of them. Certainly, the picture they paint coincides with everything I've been seeing. And my own context of the situation in Khartoum is very bleak indeed and it is deteriorating. We are hopeful that this current ceasefire will hold, but who knows? The track record is not good. I really do fear that things are going to get quite a lot worse before they get better.

MG: The Minister of Foreign Affairs, Melanie Joly, has called this situation impossible. We asked to speak with her. She was not made available for an interview with us. In a statement, Global Affairs said they're looking at every possible option to support Canadians in Sudan and that Canadian military air assets and Canadian Armed Forces personnel have been deployed to the region. What impact does temporarily suspending consular services and getting diplomats out of that country have on helping the Canadians who are in that country?

NICHOLAS COGHLAN: Well, no question it has a big impact. Again, I hesitate to object quarterback this, but two or three days ago, the minister certainly had a very hard decision to make. From what I read of the timeline of events, the U.S. and the British announced they were leaving. And then she had the decision, do we stay or do we go with them? I should say going back to my experience in Juba, we stayed. But I will admit, frankly, we stayed largely because the Americans stayed, because the Americans were our backup. We could always go to their embassy if things got really bad and they had Marines as well. I think the minister here was left with a very hard decision. She has taken the diplomatic staff out, but that has a major impact, no question. When you've got an evacuation like this, you've got the two halves of the equation. One is coordinating with your allies, getting the aircraft in, getting the availability, getting your aircraft landed in a secure location. But I would say the hard work is on the ground, is getting your Canadians, communicating with your Canadians, getting them to the airport safely and processing them on board safely. And that clearly is very, very difficult to do if you do not have people on the ground.

MG: I mean, in your situation in South Sudan in 2013, that's why despite the order, if I can put it that way, from the federal government, you stayed.

NICHOLAS COGHLAN: Well, yes. To be blunt, yes. We evacuated the rest of the staff and then they said, well, you know, you need to be on the plane, the next plane. I said, well, you know, we've still got Canadians here. And initially they said, well, you've only got 70. I said, I know we've got a lot more than 70 because I would process three or four passports a week. So my estimate was probably we had over a thousand. And it turned out in the first week we did, we evacuated 240. So I made the decision to stay. But again, I had that luxury. Okay, You know, I'm the captain of the ship, but I had the lifeboat. I will freely admit that. I was looking over my shoulder constantly. Are the U.S. staying? And of course, the U.S. ambassador was being very frank with us. They had the satellite and aerial surveillance of how far away the rebels were. They were giving us that reassurance. So we did stay and we evacuated all of the Canadians who wanted to get out in the first 10 days. We then went back on a once a week basis as we assembled Canadians during the week, went back in to escort them on board, the paperwork and so on. That went on for about six or seven weeks.

MG: The frustration that we heard from Hisham and Saydah isn't just that, you know, they're stuck there or that they don't know where the family members are. It's the radio silence that they're hearing from Canadian officials, that they're not having a sense of communication. In a best case scenario, what could they expect in terms of communication from the federal government?

NICHOLAS COGHLAN: Well, I mean, they should. Okay. First of all, you know, your baseline, the Internet is very up and down in Sudan from what I've been reading. There are periods when it's on, periods when it's not. This is not because the Sudanese authorities are cutting it. It’s because of the fighting. You know, towers are going down and so on. So that is, you know, how can I say this? That's a baseline problem of the physical infrastructure of communications. But yes, Canadians who have dutifully registered, hopefully in time should be getting regular communications. Sometimes, frankly, those communications will only be we haven't forgotten you. We're doing what we can, but sit tight, which obviously for a lot of people is very, very frustrating. It takes time to put things together, but there should be regular communication. I agree entirely with your two previous guests. Yes.

MG: People have drawn a line between what we're seeing now and the criticism that Canada faced in evacuation efforts in Afghanistan. Do you see a parallel here?

NICHOLAS COGHLAN: Well, some parallels, some differences. I do think, you know, there was one way in which the situation in Sudan, this may be too good to believe, but is slightly better, is that the Canadian-Sudanese or single nationality Canadians are not targeted per say as they were in Afghanistan where basically the Taliban were at that point going after anybody who had cooperated with the Western governments and so on. That is not the case here. In other words, the civilians are not a target, but obviously a huge amount of crossfire and so on. And similarly, this is different from Juba where half the civilians were the target. Juba was it turned out to be an ethnic conflict. Most of the Canadians were one particular ethnic group that was frankly being victimized. So you did have an ethnic dimension. Those Canadians were, people were trying to kill them. I think that is not happening in Sudan. But the happenings and the crossfire, the devastation is worse than anything we saw in Juba.

MG: We're just about out of time. And so if this ceasefire holds, and again, it's unclear as to whether it actually is, what should Canadian officials be doing to help people who are still stuck in this country who need to leave and who want to leave?

NICHOLAS COGHLAN: Well, I am sure the coordination is going on. Basically, we have to take advantage and it almost has to be hour by hour. You know, hopefully from what I understand, we have a plane on standby in Djibouti. That plane needs to be ready to go as and when our allies determine it's a safe time to go. And here is the challenge, is as one of your guests was saying, the airport, the safe location is not in the city. It's outside. And to get there, you know, even assuming you have a car, you've got to cross a couple of river bridges, you've got to go through a whole city and you've got to drive to the countryside. That is not easy. Juba, we have the luxury. People could basically walk to the airport or I could go out in the armoured vehicle and pick them up. We don't have that option here. We don't have somebody with an armoured vehicle who can go around picking people up.

MG: Your insight into this having seen this similar situations firsthand is really helpful. Nicholas, thank you very much.

NICHOLAS COGHLAN: Thanks for the invitation.

MG: Nicholas Coghlan was Canada's first resident diplomat in Khartoum from 2000 through 2003. We reached him on Salt Spring Island, British Columbia. Your CBC News is next. And then, an exit interview of sorts with our friend Duncan McCue, CBC journalist who is preparing to shepherd in the next generation of indigenous journalists. We’ll talk about lessons learned and his hope for the future coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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DUNCAN MCCUE

Guest: Duncan McCue

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, cancelled flights, luggage never to be seen again, and all you have to show for it is a voucher for a free meal or a night in an airport hotel if you're lucky. In just under half an hour, how changes to air passenger rights could improve your time on the tarmac and beyond. But first, let's talk to a journalist who has left an indelible mark on the CBC and on this country.

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DUNCAN MCCUE: And that's The National for this Friday night. For news at any hour, you can always go to cbcnews.ca. I'm Duncan McCue. Gchi-miigwech. Thanks for watching.

MG: That's Duncan McCue hosting The National in 2017. You have also of course heard him guest hosting this program. And for many years, he was the host of Cross Country Checkup, Sundays on CBC Radio. In addition to being a trailblazing journalist, Duncan McCue is also a professor and an author. His book, “Decolonizing Journalism: A Guide to Reporting in Indigenous Communities”, is a must read for anyone in journalism in this country and beyond. Well, Duncan will soon be leaving his full time gig here at the CBC. He is heading off to take on a new role at Carleton University. On his way out the door, Duncan McCue joins me in studio. Duncan, good morning.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Good morning.

MG: I want to talk about a lot of things with you, but let me ask you a question that you're often asked and that comes out of that signoff from The National. Who is this Gchi-miigwech guy?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Gchi-miigwech. Who is Gchi-miigwech? We got this hilarious letter from a listener who said, you know, who is Gchi-miigwech and why does Duncan always thank him at the end of the show? This was after Cross Country Checkup. And there was a smiley face after it. He was making a joke. And again, for listeners who haven't heard me explain this Gchi-miigwech, Gchi-miigwech is Thank you, big Thank you in Anishinaabemowin, which is the language of my ancestors. And when I arrived at Cross Country Checkup, I needed to end the show and I wanted to make a nod to our indigenous listeners, but also, you know, start to normalize Indigenous languages. And so Gchi-miigwech, thanks for listening, became kind of the way I ended things off.

MG: What was it like to host The National? What did it mean for you to do that?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Oh, The National was a big moment for me. I mean, The National has been a big part of my life for a long time. First off, watching the big show, you know, we sat around the TV every night and watched The National when I was a young kid and then ending up being a correspondent for The National. And then when the producer of this show, Raj Ahluwalia , asked me to sit in and anchor for a couple of evenings, it was a big moment for me. I mean, I believe in the importance of sharing our stories, sharing our news. And The National has been such a part of the fabric of this country for so long. And so to be there, to be sitting in the chair there for a couple of evenings was a big moment.

MG: What would it have meant to young Duncan McCue watching that television program to see you hosting that show, to see someone like you hosting that show?

DUNCAN MCCUE: I didn't see a lot of folks that looked just like me on the news. And it's part of why my friend Waubgeshig Rice who was a reporter here for a really long time said the same thing, that we didn't see ourselves on news shows and we wanted to try to chart a path forward. And there were indigenous journalists before me and before Waub. Whether it was Jim Compton or Bernelda Wheeler, Jeff Bear, there have been other Indigenous journalists before us, but not with a national profile. And so being on The National meant a big deal. It was the place that I wanted to start to access that conversation.

MG: Why does that matter? I mean, it's an obvious question, but it's a question that people still ask. Why does it matter to see yourself there in that space?

DUNCAN MCCUE: I don't think about it so much as seeing me, seeing Duncan. I didn't like being on camera. I'm a writer by nature. That's how I started out. And the reason I fell into television was because it was the place that the most number of people were getting their news. And I knew that to reach the biggest number of people, I needed to get on the TV. So I was never comfortable with being on camera. So for me, it wasn't about getting myself out there, but it was important to me to get indigenous stories out there. I mean, I just got so frustrated with the victims and warriors frames of Indigenous news coverage.

MG: Tell me more about that. What does that mean, the victims and the warriors?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Well, I mean, the way that people in the newsrooms here at CBC and at other news outlets, the only reason that they would do an indigenous story, I'm putting that in air quotes, would be if there was a big tragedy, you know, or if there was a big conflict. And often, too often, indigenous people in those stories, if they had a voice at all, were framed as being victims or warriors, angry warriors. And that was it. That was the sum total of news coverage in the 80s and 90s, you know, and certainly going further back in history. And I just knew that there were so many more stories that needed to be told about indigenous experience in this country, and that it was doing harm to our communities to continually tell Canadians that Indigenous people in this country are nothing more than victims and warriors.

MG: You said something really interesting there, which was in the context of those stories, if they had a voice. And this is part of the representation question. How often would it be that those stories would be told without somebody from the community actually being represented?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Too often. And there are all kinds of different reasons for it. I mean, one, the lack of indigenous journalists in the newsrooms to inform and share with news producers that there are other perspectives out there. But also, and this is the reason that I wrote the textbook Decolonizing Journalism, is that non-Indigenous journalists have struggled to try to make connections and build bridges with Indigenous communities. And not for lack of trying, but just because of that, that trust between newsrooms and Indigenous communities has been broken because of the stereotypical coverage over decades and decades and decades. And so when journalists try to reach out and tell a story about missing and murdered indigenous women or residential schools, they get silence or they get crickets and they don't know how to try to connect to those voices. And so we end up hearing from white experts or again, very, very two dimensional perspectives on indigenous life.

MG: The other thing that you said is that there is harm that comes from that. And so what is the harm to the community if the story is told without those perspectives being brought in and just through that narrow two dimensional kind of focus? What's the harm that that can cause?

DUNCAN MCCUE: I think about the little indigenous kid that I was, the little Anishinaabe kid, I mean, and I had this very muddled up image of what an Indian was, wearing feathers and buckskin. That's what I thought it was to be Indian. I mean, I grew up in an indigenous family, but pop culture and the pervasiveness of it, it shared a lot of complex and messed up images of indigenous people. And it affected my little brain, you know, as a kid. And I had to go through a process as a teenager but memoras even in my 20s, of decolonizing, of reading and learning and talking with my own people to try to figure out my own indigenous identity. And so with regard to news coverage, you know, I often make the point that we should look at it in the same way that we look at police. We're rightly concerned about giving cultural competency courses to police officers because of the potential harm that could be caused if there's a misunderstanding when they go into a community and they draw a gun, right? We're worried about that. And we don't want those misunderstandings to happen. That harm is obvious. But when news organizations are flooding the country with these two dimensional images of indigenous life in this country, it does harm to young Indigenous children who are growing up and only see themselves represented in the media as problems. They don't have an opportunity to imagine themselves in a more positive light in this country.

MG: One of the things that you've often talked about, this is a phrase that I've thought about since I heard it, but I've talked to other people, including our friend Connie Walker and others about how they have been shaped by this phrase of being a storyteller, not a story taker. What is that?

DUNCAN MCCUE: You know, wrestling with the whole notion of cultural appropriation? When I was creating the guide, I was trying to explain to journalists why indigenous guests get their backs up when a journalist shows up and sticks a microphone in their face and says tell me your story. And journalists don't always understand that. But you have to put it in the context of outsiders coming into our communities for the whole history of Canada and taking things away. And whether it's bones or art or stories or children or land, that has been our experience is that outsiders come into our communities and take things away. And I wanted to try to with the phrase be a storyteller, not a story taker, I wanted to try to illustrate to journalists that they were doing the same thing and still are doing the same thing. And that goes for Indigenous journalists like me and Connie Walker. You know, we are going into our community and saying, we want your story and taking it away. We’re keeping editorial control over it, right? So how do we build a good relationship so that that interaction, that that storytelling can happen?

MG: I want to play a couple of things for you that you have done here at the CBC that I think reflect that approach that this is not just academic, this is how you have operated here at the public broadcaster. And there are two things I want to play. One is from your work hosting Cross Country Checkup. Take a listen to this.

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DUNCAN MCCUE: Our question today, what are your thoughts on the trial and verdict in the death of Colton Boushie? What does the verdict in Stanley's trial say about settler First Nation relations in Saskatchewan, about reconciliation in Canada between Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples? Some say the justice system did its job, and a crowdfunding campaign is underway to raise money for Stanley's defence. Others say justice was denied and this case highlights long standing biases against First Nations in the courts. But no matter your opinion, remember, a family lost their 22-year-old son, brother, nephew.

MG: Gerald Stanley was found not guilty in the death of Colton Boushie in 2018. And in that program, this is a live call in program across the country in which you are talking to Canadians. You have no idea in some ways what people are going to say to you live on the air. It's a pretty difficult place to be in in that moment. And I wonder in that moment what you saw as your role as a journalist.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That was a tough show, Matt. The verdict came down late Friday night. Checkup on Sunday was the first opportunity for people to really, really share their thoughts. And, you know, again, remember what was going on in that province at that time. The premier was saying, you know, this racism on social media needs to stop. I mean, that was how heightened it was. And then on the other hand, you've got indigenous people who are seeing yet again an all-white jury come to a conclusion that they felt was justice denied. Checkup is it's coming at you and you don't know what's coming next. And so my role, two things. You know, I was very purposeful when I said remember this is someone's brother and son. I had said that because indigenous people have been othered in this country for a really long time. And it's too easy for news audiences when they see those black and white photos of residential schools children, or when they see a crime scene photo that involves an indigenous death, it's too easy for them to make those associations that they have in their minds about who that indigenous person was and not to think of them as a person. And it was important that we had called the sister on that show to share that perspective. But the other thing, I mean, moderation and diplomacy are not necessarily sexy words in 2023.

MG: Moderation being actually moderating the conversation.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Yes, absolutely. There were people, I mean, I got off that show and oh my gosh, the anger. I mean, like the vitriol. But it's important that we hear each other. It's important that we have dialogue. It's important that we listen to each other. And that's what I loved about sitting in the chair at Checkup every week.

MG: That's hard work.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Yeah, that is hard work. But particularly for me as an indigenous host, you know, in Canadian history, we've had these moments of heightened, heightened tension, you know, whether it's the, you know, name the blockade. And for some of them, I was on the air in the middle of that. I don't see my role as being getting in a battle with the listener. I want to try to draw them out and understand why they think the way they do.

MG: And the goal of that, if you can do that and have people talk to each other or listen to each other at the very least, what do you think can be achieved?

DUNCAN MCCUE: We need to have civil discourse in this country. I mean, it's really important. And social media barking is not helping. It's a small number of voices who are getting amplified in a way that is unhealthy. And we need to have a place to sit down and to talk and listen to each other. I feel that it's our obligation and responsibility as a public broadcaster to offer that place where neighbours can talk to neighbours about things that they may disagree about.

MG: The other thing that I wanted to play you, you hinted at this before in terms of your role and the things that you've had to think about being a storyteller, not a story taker. This is from the podcast that you hosted and helped create.

SOUNDCLIP

DUNCAN MCCUE: They called it a school, but what kind of school has a graveyard? I'll tell you. In this eight-part series, we’ll take you on a journey to uncover truths that have been hidden for too long.

DUNCAN MCCUE: We’ve managed to find the autopsy report.

MALE SPEAKER: How? Jesus, You think that it’d be buried so deeply.

DUNCAN MCCUE: And we’ll confront the people responsible for crimes committed there. Kuper Island.

FEMALE SPEAKER: This isn't just a story about how a child died. This is about what was going on inside a residential school that drove a child to possibly die by suicide.

MG: That’s remarkable journalism. And I wonder what the weight of telling a story like that is on you. The impact, people know as a listener the impact of it is incredible. We as listeners learned something that we didn't know, learned context, depth, all the things that you provide, but you're the one who's telling the story. And I just wonder what that's like.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Oh, but I hear that and I think of Richard Thomas, Matt. Like I mean, Richard was the young boy that was found hanging at the Kuper Island residential school and whose story we tried to tell. Is it a weight? Yeah, it is. It's a weight because I needed to do justice to the survivors who we spoke with to their stories and do my best to verify the evidence and the facts and all of those kinds of things. But these are people who for too long were not listened to. Was it hard on me or on our team, Jodie Martinson, Martha Troian? Yeah, of course it was. But this is why we need to start having trauma informed journalism courses at journalism schools so that journalists know how to tell those stories in a respectful way and in a way that doesn't do them harm as well.

MG: Tell us how you're going to do this. You're leaving CBC to go and take a full time job at Carleton. What are you building there?

DUNCAN MCCUE: I'm very excited about it. We're going to do our best to start to bring more Indigenous students to J schools. We know the numbers aren't great in terms of Indigenous people coming to journalism schools for all kinds of different reasons. There have been a lot of barriers. And so we are going to do our best to build a program where indigenous students can study journalism from their home communities.

MG: So what does that mean?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Well, I mean, we've seen distance education in nursing, indigenous nursing, indigenous education for quite a while. And I've often made the case that we should be doing the same thing in journalism, that if you're in Attawapiskat or Kashechewan, that you shouldn't need to come down to Toronto or Ottawa or Vancouver to go to J school, that we can teach you online. And before the pandemic, I didn't get a lot of reception for that. But now, lo and behold, we can teach journalism online. And so we're going to do our best to reach indigenous students who really want to become storytellers, who really want to become journalists and give them some of the tools that they need. Whether they want to build community radio stations in their community or they want to build community newspapers or maybe they want to end up hosting The National one day, we'll start them out hopefully in a good way.

MG: This is part of the TRC. I mean, this was in many ways one of the calls to action that spoke directly to the need for this, right?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Absolutely. Call to Action 86. There are a number of calls in the TRC report which say that journalism can't be arm's length from reconciliation. They have to be part of reconciliation. Call to Action 86 singles out journalism schools saying you need to teach the next generation indigenous culture, indigenous history, indigenous literature, treaties, you know, all of these things. And so yes, it's absolutely a response to the TRC.

MG: What difference do you think that will make? If we were to talk in five or 10 years time, what difference would you hope will come out of this?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Oh, I hope that there are all kinds of students from Carleton University and other universities who are working here at the CBC, and they'll be able to speak for yourself. You won't need to talk to me, Matt, because I'll have lots of former students who will be breaking so many stories that they'll be sitting down here talking with you. That's the difference not that I hope that I'm going to make, I'm sure that we are going to make, because I know there are young indigenous people who are dying to have the opportunity to have a microphone and tell their story. They just at this point aren't quite sure how and they just need someone, a cheerleader to help them out and to say you can do this. And not only can you do this and make a podcast from your laptop in your isolated community up north, but if you want, you can have access to the national airwaves. And I am super excited for those young voices and what they're going to be telling you in five, 10 years from now.

MG: Let me ask you just two final things. One is you've mentioned, you know, the national airwaves and the public broadcaster a couple of times. What's the role, do you think, of the CBC in that? It's kind of the national pastime in some ways to argue about the place of the public broadcaster. If you're thinking about the public broadcaster in terms of the work that you are doing, what could this place do? What could we be?

DUNCAN MCCUE: This place can be an awful lot more. Everyone's going to beat up on us all the time, Matt. You and I both know that. And it'll come from all sides and fair enough. I mean, the taxpayers are paying.

MG: I always say people loan us, so they have a right to weigh in.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Absolutely. But honing in on the one small thing, and it's not small, that the CBC can do a lot better is with regard to indigenous voices. And so we are in the middle of developing an Indigenous strategy here at CBC. My colleague Robert Doane is going to unveil that within this year. And there are large changes that need to happen here at CBC with regard to Indigenous voices and their place in the structure. There are many things that the CBC can be doing to build better relationships. It shouldn't be on the shoulders of one individual reporter to go out and build better relationships. Whether it's access to archives, whether it is indigenous artwork and place names in our buildings, whether it is having a structural role with an indigenous vice president, these are things that the CBC can do to improve the relationship.

MG: You've talked about this, that this could be a pillar of the CBC.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Absolutely.

MG: That we talk about it being that there's an English service, the French service, that there could be another part to that.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Not could be. There should be and must be. Indigenous people in this country have inherent rights. They are a distinct society. If the CBC is going to reflect Canada that is, then it's going to need to do a better job when it comes to reflecting Indigenous voices.

MG: Just finally, what is it that is so exciting to you? I've referred to you as a teacher in some ways long before you're going off to, you know, university to help shape this next generation. You have been a teacher here at CBC and elsewhere for a long, long time and have done that work to make people, to make us better. What do you think is most exciting about that?

DUNCAN MCCUE: When former students come up to me and tell me that something I shared with them made a difference in a story that they did or in a life decision that they made, that means a lot. I have had some amazing teachers, whether it's here at CBC who taught me the craft or whether it is elders who have taught me about being on the land, whether it's my own parents. And so I know what it's like to have someone who turns on the light bulb for a second, you know, that jolt of electricity, that aha moment. What excites me going forward is just again, I see hope in the future. And you started off this interview talking about some of the negative things about indigenous coverage, but I see nothing but hope when it comes to the opportunities for journalism and for young Indigenous people who want to take it on.

MG: It's our loss in some ways that you're leaving, but it is a much greater gain for this country and for all of the members of that next generation. I'm excited for what you're going to do.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Thank you, Matt, and I really appreciate that.

MG: Thank you.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Gchi-miigwech.

MG: Duncan McCue is a journalist, professor and author and will soon be leaving his full-time gig here at CBC to take on a new role at Carleton University in Ottawa. Well, coming up after your regional update, Ottawa wants to make air travel less of a headache. In 90 seconds, what changes to the air passenger rights could mean for you. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREA CHEONG: Everyday clothing does not need to have synthetics in it. They use synthetics to drive down the price to manufacture, thus increasing their profits.

MG: In 10 minutes, opting out of fast fashion and making your dollar and your clothing last. I’m Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We are back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

AIR PASSENGER RIGHTS

Guest: Sylvie De Bellefeuille

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You’re listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

OMAR ALGHABRA: Everyone would be entitled to compensation except for a clear list of exceptions. This means there will be no more loopholes where airlines can claim a disruption is caused by something outside of their control for a security reason when it's not.

MG: That's Federal Transport Minister Omar Alghabra in Ottawa yesterday announcing new air passenger rights legislation. The Government says the changes will help reduce customer complaints after a surge over the past few years. Right now, there are more than 40,000 complaints from passengers still waiting for a resolution. Sylvie De Bellefeuille is a lawyer with Options Consommateur in Montreal. She specializes in consumer rights. Sylvie, good morning.

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: Good morning.

MG: It was interesting reading about this this morning. Somebody characterized this change as now the airlines are guilty until proven innocent. Do you think that that's accurate?

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: Well, it's a little bit more accurate than it was before. The thing is with the current regulations, that when there's a disturbance, it's up to the consumer to prove that the air carrier did not apply the regulations right, which is something very difficult because most people don't know the regulations first. And all of the information that really is about what caused the disruption is within the hands of the air carrier. So it's something that is very difficult. So this change of burden of proof is something that we've been fighting for.

MG: So how is this going to make things better for air passengers who have suffered through cancelled flights, delayed flights, luggage that just vanishes into thin air, sleeping on the floor of the airport because they're waiting for the flights to be rescheduled? How will this make life better for them?

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: Well, what we hope for is that because now we're changing the law, but the regulations will have to be changed as well. But what we do hope is that the obligations from the air carriers will be clearer and it will be more difficult for them to try to reduce their liability. What we've seen in the past, especially last summer, they tended to put everything under the umbrella of safety issue. And for passengers, almost anything seems to be a safety issue. So what it does is that within the current regulation, it reduces the compensations that passengers are entitled to. So by removing this type of excuse and by putting more emphasis on what are extraordinary situations, we do hope for or we do hope that when there's a disruption, passengers will be better equipped in order to have appropriate compensation.

MG: We heard the minister at the beginning, though, say no more loopholes, that the airlines will have to abide by this legislation, except for a clear list of exceptions. One of the big exceptions, a loophole perhaps you could characterize it, is weather. Weather disruptions like the snowstorms that forced the delays and the cancellations of thousands of flights around Christmas last year are not accounted for in this legislation. Why do you think weather is excluded from what the Government has put forward?

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: That I'm not too sure because at the moment, when things are out of their control, out of the control of the air carriers, weather is probably one of the situations you cannot blame. For example, you cannot blame an air carrier because there’s a snowstorm. Now, what happened also during the Christmas period is that not only flights were disrupted, but the disruption lasted for a very, very long time. So what I do believe is that Minister Alghabra wants to tighten the regulations so that it will not take six days in order to get things back to normal when there's a snowstorm, for example.

MG: People point to what happens in Europe and the European standards that have been in place for many, many years now and say, you know what? Don't reinvent the wheel. Just apply those standards to this jurisdiction. What are we missing in not doing that, do you think?

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: Well, my comprehension is that this is what the government intends to do with this, with the law. The problem was that in the regulations, when you have a regulation, it must be within what the law says. So before changing the regulations, you have to change the law. So this is a first step. So the second step will be to change the regulations. And my understanding is that we’re leading towards regulations that will be similar to the ones applied in Europe.

MG: In the meantime, there's something like 45,000 complaints still waiting to be dealt with by the Canadian Transportation Agency. Is this going to help with that backlog at all?

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: We'll have to see when those changes will be implemented. Some of the changes also deals with the way that complaints are treated. At the moment, normally, complaints at the Canadian Transport Agency must be dealt with the member of the office. So now, they will be able to hire agents in order to analyze and in order to render decisions on that. So we do believe that this will make things faster. And also, if we apply also the change of burden of proof, that will make things lighter also for passengers.

MG: Airlines are not impressed with this. The National Airlines Council of Canada says that these changes will not improve your travel experience. It calls them punitive. It says that it puts it all on the airlines, not on airports, not on subcontractors who might be moving your luggage around. Do they have a point there?

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: Well, I'm not surprised by their position, especially because some of the fines will be heavier for them. There are some issues that are dealt by the air carriers. Now, if there are problems that are within the system, sometimes it could be problems at the airport or with other contractors, this should be dealt with, you know, by them. I don't know if they have other recourses, but what we've seen, unfortunately, over the past few years is that passengers rights were not their first priority for airlines. And this is probably why the minister decided to tighten the problem.

MG: What's going to stop the airlines from just increasing fees now that they're going to have more costs associated with all these complaints?

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: Probably the market, I would say, because at a certain level, they have to make sure that people can still afford to buy tickets now. But most of those regulations are already applied in Europe. So I don't know exactly why should Canadians be less protected than passengers in Europe. So and we see airlines in Europe that are still doing good. So I'm not that sure that this will be too heavy on the airlines.

MG: So do you think people will notice anything? I mean, it's only April. I know, but summer is not that far away. And that's a busy travel season. And people might be dreading travelling if they can afford it because of what they may have gone through in past. So are things actually going to be any better with this new proposal?

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: Let's hope so because there are two steps. The first step now is this proposal still has to be voted. So we'll see if this bill goes through with that. And also, it depends on how it will be implemented. Also, there were some issues last year regarding staff problems. So is there any sufficient people working is another issue that is not part of the law. So we'll have to see.

MG: Sylvie, thank you very much.

SYLVIE DE BELLEFEUILLE: You're very welcome.

MG: Sylvie De Bellefeuille is a lawyer with Options Consommateur. She was in Montreal.

[music]

FAST FASHION

Guests: Andrea Cheong, Kate Bauer

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio and your CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway.

[Song: “Overture: Funny Face / ‘S Wonderful / Think Pink” by George Gershwin and Ira Gershwin]

MG: Your chartreuse rolled into songs Very often these days. The changing whims of the fashion industry are nothing new. That clip was from Funny Face, a movie made more than 60 years ago. What has changed, though, is how the fashionable clothes are being made and how much they cost. Quantity has overtaken quality with fast fashion mainstays like Zara, Old Navy and Shein. There is a new generation of influencers, though, pushing shoppers to spend their money more wisely and perhaps look more deeply for quality. Andrea Cheong is among them. She's a UK-based content creator, author of a forthcoming book, “Why Don't I Have Anything to Wear?” Andrea, good morning.

ANDREA CHEONG: Hi, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well. When did you start thinking about not the quantity but the quality of clothing?

ANDREA CHEONG: So I actually started the Mindful Monday method, which is a five-step guide to learn how to shop. And this started in 2019.

MG: So briefly run us through the five steps.

ANDREA CHEONG: Absolutely. So this is basically learning how to shop from scratch without any of the greenwashing, without any of the confusion. The first step is a wardrobe audit. So actually understanding what your wardrobe needs are. Most people will find that they actually gravitate towards a certain colour palette or certain silhouette. And what I tell people to do, which is different from stylists, is to actually analyze the clothing that you don't want because you're going to start to see patterns here and you don't need to repeat your mistakes. The second step is budgeting, and it's really about financial wellness and interrogating why we spend the way that we do. And the third one is fashion goals. So I'm sure if you've ever seen an advert that’s centred around sustainability, you might be confused. Should you be caring about carbon emissions, water, workers’ rights, natural fibres, what should you be caring about? And the truth is that we all have natural inclinations to certain things. So fashion goals or sustainability goals is going to help you work that out. And then my social media platforms is really focussed on steps four and five, which is quality and materials.

MG: You said that quality is the least talked about aspect of sustainable fashion. Why don't people talk about the quality of their clothes?

ANDREA CHEONG: Oh, okay. I'm going to sound very cynical, but I'm very passionate about this. So the reason why brands don't harp on about the quality of their clothing is because most consumers, most shoppers don't know what to look for. And so this is the number one thing that brands and retailers can cut their costs on without us even realizing. And that is why it's so downplayed. It's why so few people talk about it. And we're not even talking about fast fashion brands here. Luxury retailers do this too.

MG: I was going to say if you pay more, does that mean that you're getting something better or does that mean that the quality could still be low but you're just paying more for it?

ANDREA CHEONG: Absolutely the latter. There's something called fast luxury, which is basically luxury fashion based on visibility, based on hype. And I think this has really come about with the kind of peak of social media culture where looking like you're wearing the latest thing or having something recognizable becomes more important than the actual quality. It's become digital fast fashion as opposed to real life fashion.

MG: Okay. So we went out to the mall and talked to some shoppers. Have a listen to this young shopper in Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE SPEAKER: I think I buy clothes per season. So maybe every three months. I think first it wouldn't matter the price and then the quality. If I'm going for a shirt and it's $60, I just think for me as a university student, that would be too expensive for one shirt. I would like value the price and then try to make it sustainable on my own. So I'd rather get something cheaper and then try to stretch it for a longer time than to buy something that's more expensive. I would pay more if it was ethical, if it wasn't an extreme price, if that makes any sense. Like I wouldn't spend $120 on something that I can spend $5 on.

MG: I wouldn't spend $120 on something that I could spend $5 on. That sounds fairly straightforward, and I think a lot of people perhaps would agree with that. What's wrong with that approach?

ANDREA CHEONG: I wouldn't say there’s anything necessarily wrong with the approach. I don't like to bring morality into it. We are all aware of how fast fashion works, how the supply chains work. If we want to just kind of zoom out and just look at the consumer end of things, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that because you can find great quality shirts. For example, second-hand that are $5. So I think if that is the case, then why not? I don't think that we need to always focus on shopping new because the whole idea of shopping sustainably can look different to other people.

MG: You've said that you should choose your clothes like you choose your friends. What does that mean?

ANDREA CHEONG: Okay. So most people who haven't seen my videos before will say, how do I know if something is made well, right? And I say, okay, choose your clothes like you choose your friends. You want friends who are as beautiful on the inside as they are on the outside. Wouldn't you agree, Matt?

MG: Mm hmm.

ANDREA CHEONG: Yes. So what I always say is if you don't want to watch any of my videos and you're going to go shopping like in the next two seconds, the first item you're interested in, turn it inside out. If it looks as beautiful on the inside as it does on the outside almost like you couldn't even tell, almost like you got ready really quickly in the morning, you walked out of your house your clothes inside out, could you tell immediately? And so that's one very quick way to see whether or not something is made well. There are obviously a lot of nuances there. There's a lot more that goes into it, but that's just kind of like an easy way to look at it.

MG: Before we had this conversation, you and I, we were looking here in our studio at these giant mountains of used clothes in the desert in Chile. We've had conversations on this program before about bundles of clothes being shipped to countries like Kenya and Africa. Why does quality, from your perspective, why does quality matter when it comes to what it is that people are buying?

ANDREA CHEONG: Okay. So quality matters because planned obsolescence is a real issue that retailers are doing. It is a way to cut costs so that they make more money as they're forecasting more growth. How are they going to fulfil that? Obviously, they need to drive down the cost to produce and raise the prices for consumers. And the easiest way to reduce the cost to produce is to have planned obsolescence. So essentially, that means creating products that are designed to fail sooner than we expect. Now, the thing is with quality, a lot of people say buy less, wear it more or buy less, buy better. But how? We weren’t taught this. We're not taught this at school. Very few of our family can sew and have educated this, educated us on this. So my question is how? And that's why quality matters so much. And that's why the Mindful Monday method and my book that's coming out this August focuses all on that.

MG: Just finally on this, I want to bring another voice into our conversation, but do you worry about those mountains of discarded clothes that people wore a couple of times and they end up thousands of kilometres away rotting in a desert somewhere?

ANDREA CHEONG: I can't imagine anyone not caring about it. I think what it is for shoppers is that it's so hidden, it's so opaque, it's so invisible to them. And what I really want to impress is if that you do learn how to shop and you do learn how to spot quality, you actually won't want to shop. And I think I've heard the statistic that we need to buy 75% less. Again, how do we do that? If we focus on quality, which you can find regardless of price point, actually, then you will be wasting less. And I think that that's an educational thing. I think that's a time thing. And I think it's something that we all have to decide on ourselves, by ourselves, sorry, without being shamed, without being overwhelmed with eco guilt.

MG: All right. Hang on the line with us because I want to bring this other voice into our conversation. Kate Bauer is a fashion content creator based in Toronto who looks at ways to shop smarter. She's a Ph.D. candidate at the University of Toronto. Kate, good morning to you.

KATE BAUER: Hi, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. Tell me about changing your shopping habits and how you went about doing that.

KATE BAUER: I definitely fell victim to in my early twenties, the whole fast fashion mentality. I went to university in Montreal, and McGill campus is located quite close to some big malls in Montreal. And so I would find myself on campus wearing a fast fashion outfit that I thought was cute the day before and feeling uncomfortable in my clothes, feeling like they weren't fitting well on my body, feeling like they weren't really expressing myself how I wanted to be expressed. And so I would find myself sometimes leaving campus and going to shop mid-afternoon to switch an outfit. I was totally obsessed with the overturning kind of replacing mentality of fast fashion before I got to grad school and found I just didn't have the budget and time to keep doing that.

MG: How did social media shape that, do you think?

KATE BAUER: Yeah. So I started posting on social media at the end of 2019. I was starting to find all sorts of amazing things at the thrift store that I thought, you know, people need to know that you can build a wardrobe with second-hand clothing. And I started to get a lot of traction during the pandemic when people I think we're thinking more critically about their closet, about what their closet meant to them. And I found myself more willing to learn and surrounded by people who were thinking about these things, thinking about quality and sustainability and ethics in the fashion industry.

MG: And so what do you do now?

KATE BAUER: So I am, like I said, a Ph.D. candidate, but I also have an Instagram and a TikTok where I share mindful fashion tips.

MG: What does that mean?

KATE BAUER: Yeah. Mindful is an umbrella term, I think that Andrea kind of gets at it, to encompass different ways of consuming fashion that is not just exclusively shopping from, for example, an ethically made brand. I think factoring in methods of consumption that can sometimes include, you know, a mall brand like Zara, if you are planning to wear that piece 20, 50, 100 times, that might fall under the umbrella of mindful fashion. So I talk about all of that on my platforms with a focus on locally made, mindful and second-hand fashion.

MG: And why do you think this matters? Same question that I asked Andrea. Why do you think this matters?

KATE BAUER: People I think are becoming much more aware these days about the impacts of every decision that we make in our life. We can't escape, you know, the over influx of bad news and things from around the world. Certainly if you're on social media, you might have seen those pictures of piles of clothes in the desert. And I think more and more we're having to sit with the consequences of our decisions in this really interconnected world. And people are also thinking as well about how they can express themselves in interesting and unique ways. Certainly, that's what I find my audience is interested in as well.

MG: Do you think people are really thinking about this though? I mean, the last couple of days, it was the anniversary of the Rana Plaza factory disaster in Bangladesh, where this factory collapse made fast fashion. More than a thousand people died. And in the wake of that, there was a narrative that well, this will change everything. People will think differently, they'll shop differently, they'll think more about the people who were paid next to nothing to make the clothes that I bought for $5 and wore once and then threw out. And I don't know that that changed a lot. Do you think people are really plugged into this and want to think differently?

KATE BAUER: I think that's where the education element comes in. You know, certainly, I'm an educator in my day job. And so I try to bring some of those elements into the content that I make. I think if people want to know, they can find it. I certainly like to, as Andrea said, try to approach the topic of mindful consumption without judgement and with an eye to thinking about harm reduction instead of just a complete overhaul on how we consume. Certainly, it's really hard to avoid these things. And I think it can be really overwhelming to think about how, you know, the consequences of all our actions. But small changes and approachable changes I think are the wedge in the door for people to maybe start caring a little bit more or implementing those bigger changes.

MG: Harm reduction is an interesting turn of phrase to use here.

KATE BAUER: Mm hmm. Yeah. I think it's used in lots of different cases. But harm reduction really refers to the fact that if you're going to be buying clothing, really, you know, consuming, as consumers, we can't really avoid the fact that our decisions have an impact on the environment. And because of global supply chains, could possibly, you know, come from somebody who is being underpaid or poorly treated as a worker. So harm reduction refers to the small kind of mitigating changes that we can make in how often we shop and maybe where we shop and how we think about the value of clothes in our life.

MG: Andrea, what would you say to people who say that this is still about consumption, that the way to answer this question if you have concerns around sustainability, if you have concerns around how people are treated that make these clothes, the way to deal with this is to buy less and just not consume as much.

ANDREA CHEONG: Sorry, can you rephrase the question?

MG: What would you say to those people who raise those concerns and say that this is about consumption, we just need to consume less?

ANDREA CHEONG: I think there needs to be a multi-pronged approach. Yes, the underlying sentiment is we need to consume less, but I also think we need to give shoppers an incentive to do so, because I think we need to also interrogate why we're shopping, right, which is to do with our visual expression. The first thing someone notices about you when they meet you is the way you dress and how you present yourself. Is that correct? Well, that's a whole other topic, but that essentially is how, like anthropologically as a society, we view each other. And so I think we really need to look at the psychology behind why we're shopping so much because yes, of course, we need to consume less. But how will you motivate someone to do this? And it sounds counterproductive, but honestly, my method proves to you that long term you will spend less money. You will not only save money, but you will also feel better. And you’ll also want to say no to buying clothes. So I do think that it's about talking about changing of habits, essentially.

MG: Kate, just finally, Andrea gave her five tips off the top. For you, what's the one thing? If somebody is interested and intrigued by this conversation and they want to know what to do differently, what, Kate, would you say that they should do first?

KATE BAUER: That is such a hard question. And, you know, Matt, you're not the first person to ask me that. So I should have maybe thought about my one liner to answer this coherently. But I think the best thing, and it's part of sort of Andrea’s method, is open your closet, open it wide, lay everything out and find the things that you feel like when you put on your body, feel the best on you, whether it's how they, you know, communicate who you are to the world or how they physically fit or how the fibres physically feel, and use that as a guide for how you shop moving forward. And for me, it's always been a focus on natural fibres over synthetics. So that's the main way that I shop. Whether it's in the thrift store or in, you know, a nicer sort of sustainable, smaller boutique store, I'm always looking for those fibres that I know, you know, feel good on me.

MG: Kate, thank you very much.

KATE BAUER: Thanks, Matt.

MG: And Andrea, thank you.

ANDREA CHEONG: Well, thank you so much.

MG: Kate Bauer is a Toronto-based fashion influencer who shares her thrifty finds on the Instagram account @read-write-thrift. Andrea Cheong is an influencer and author of the upcoming book “Why Don't I Have Anything to Wear?” And she was in London, England. That is The Current for this Tuesday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. As you look through the closets trying to figure out what to wear today, a little bit of music for you courtesy of Mr. Joel Plaskett Emergency. It's Fashionable People. I’m Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. See you tomorrow.

[Song: “Fashionable People” by Joel Plaskett Emergency]

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Tuesday April 25, 2023 Episode Transcript

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