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The Current Transcript for April 6, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: It's the holy month of Ramadan. It's Passover right now. And families, Israeli and Palestinian deserve to be able to celebrate and reflect in peace and in security.

MATT GALLOWAY: For weeks, hundreds of thousands of Israelis have been out on the streets protesting judicial reforms proposed by the prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. The fear in the occupied West Bank and beyond is that those reforms could exacerbate tensions in an already volatile year where around 90 Palestinians and 15 Israelis have been killed and where Israeli police raided the Al-Aqsa Mosque. The World At 6’s Susan Bonner is in Tel Aviv and she's here in 30 minutes with the latest on a tense holiday period and what might follow. Also this morning, we'll head to Vancouver's downtown east side where a homeless encampment was removed by police. The city says that encampment was unsafe. Advocates ask where those living there will go now with shelter space in the city at capacity. And later, consider the African elephant. It's big. And what could possibly frighten it away from a farmer's field?

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LUCY KING: African bees have this phenomenal capability. As they sting, the release of pheromone triggers other bees in their colony to attack the same place. So these elephants are not actually scared of one bee. They're scared of many hundreds of bees

MG: In an hour, how researchers are using bees and bee sounds to show a way forward for elephants and humans to live together. We begin, though, with a Canadian Oscar winner and his message to Vladimir Putin. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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DANIEL ROHER

Guest: Daniel Roher

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MALE SPEAKER: And the Oscar goes to… Navalny.

[crowd cheering]

MALE SPEAKER: Daniel Roher, Diane Becker, Melanie Miller and Shane Barris.

FEMALE SPEAKER: Director Daniel Roher and his team filmed Alexei Navalny while he was in hiding from the Russian government at a remote location in Germany.

[crowd cheering]

DANIEL ROHER: Alexei Navalny the leader of the Russian opposition remains in solitary confinement for what he calls, I want to make sure we get his words exactly right, Vladimir Putin's unjust war of aggression in Ukraine.

MG: That's Canadian director Daniel Roher accepting his Oscar last month for his documentary Navalny. The film tells the story of Alexei Navalny, a leading opponent of Russian President Vladimir Putin. Navalny is now serving time in prison after he made a dramatic return to his country two years ago. And like other opponents of the Russian leader, he has learned how dangerous an enemy the Russian leader can be when he barely survived an elaborate assassination attempt, all of that captured in this film. And joining me now in studio with his Oscar is Daniel Roher, director of Navalny. Daniel, good morning.

DANIEL ROHER: I'm really delighted I could be here with you, Matt, and to have the golden lamb here as well is cool.

MG: You walked into the studio with your Oscar wrapped in what?

DANIEL ROHER: It was actually wrapped in my tallit, a Jewish prayer shawl, which is I think a really perfect image and metaphor for the last three weeks of my life. The Oscars were on the 12th, and then on Saturday night in New York City, I got married. And so the Oscar happened to be with me and my tallit was with me. So I said, they don't give you a case for it. What do I wrap the Oscar in? So I thought it was appropriate to wrap this miracle object in my religious shawl.

MG: You've had a wild few weeks. Congratulations.

DANIEL ROHER: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

MG: Can I see it?

DANIEL ROHER: Of course.

MG: Look at it. This is beautiful. I don't want to be like it's heavy.

DANIEL ROHER: That's the slogan.

MG: And it's amazing.

DANIEL ROHER: It's heavier than you think.

MG: And again, you don't want to be too much of a fanboy, but when do you get to see these sorts of things in the studio?

DANIEL ROHER: It's cool. It's cool. It's cool.

MG: It’s pretty great. We'll just put it right there.

DANIEL ROHER: Yeah, I think it's great.

MG: Do you carry it around with you all the time?

DANIEL ROHER: No, I don't. I had it with me for, you know, it was on the floor of our house for a little bit. I was at my wife's home in Los Angeles. And now it's going to its final spot where it's going to live its life at my mom and dad's house.

MG: That's where it'll be

DANIEL ROHER: In Toronto. Yeah. I just feel like if I have it around all the time and I have to look at it too much, it'll probably make me anxious. And I don't want to have to live up to it. So I thought that instead of it being a beacon of anxiety for me, it would be a beacon of joy for my mom and dad because I know every time they see it, they would just be ecstatic and thrilled and very happy. And I think the clip you played at the top of the show, my dad probably watches that video every hour on the hour, the speech.

MG: What do you remember about that moment? I mean, I’ve spoken to people who've won big awards and their mind kind of goes blank and then they can't remember. They see themselves on stage after and it seems like it was somebody else up there. What do you remember about that?

DANIEL ROHER: So they move you up when your category comes up. We're sitting at the back. They put the movie stars up front and I'm sitting next to my wife and Questlove and Riz Ahmed are up there and they're awesome. I love both those guys. And they start reading the category and my heart is just racing. And I took Caroline's hand and I put it to my chest so she could feel my beating heart. And Questlove opens the envelope Navalny and I kissed Caroline. That was the plan. If we won, I have to give my wife a kiss before I go up on stage. I have my notebook with me because I had a prepared remarks.

MG: You went up with like a Moleskine

DANIEL ROHER: I went up with this very book here. And let me show you what the speech looks like so you can see how I prepared for this because you have 45 seconds and you don't want to mess it up. And so you jump up on stage and you look out at 3000 people or whatever it is. And the first person I make eye contact with, Steven Spielberg sitting in the second row and I'm like, okay, ignore Steven Spielberg. You're on a mission. You'll see sometimes people win Oscars and they are over the moon and like they are so joyful. And if you watched me, I was like in Kobe mode. I was like it's time. Like I have a job to do. I had to get through the speech. And my plan was to invite Yulia, Alexei's wife, to close off the speech.

MG: And that was important to you. Why?

DANIEL ROHER: It was important to me because this is for her. Everything that has been manifested is because of her family and her husband. So the idea that Yulia Navalny, wife of Alexei Navalny, who was languishing in prison, unable to be with us, gets to deliver the final message to the world, the final message to Putin and all the people who empower that regime I think was meaningful and symbolic. And so I'm doing my speech, I'm trying to be articulate and I'm trying to get through it with haste. And then I have to try and signal to the booth up there that there's going to be another speaker so they don't play me off. And in the first half of the speech, I got two applause breaks. So when I said Christo Grozev, our Bulgarian nerd with the laptop, one of the pivotal subjects of the film, everyone started clapping. And I remember thinking, oh, everyone's seen the movie. Great. And then similarly, when I introduced the family, everyone started clapping. And then I was able to bring in Yulia and she delivered her remarks. And we go backstage, I immediately start crying. And, you know, all the feelings, the emotion of the whole moment come out. I embrace Yulia and she's holding me. You know, we are all very aware of who was missing, of who wasn't with us.

MG: Do you know whether he knows? Or what does he know about the success of this film? The fact that I mean, it's not just the Oscar. I mean, this has been a huge success. Since you and I spoke when the film was about to come out, things have gone really well. Does Alexei Navalny know that people are watching this film and know his story now?

DANIEL ROHER: Yeah. I think it's hard for him to fully grasp it having never experienced, you know, to experience a seven minute standing ovation after people watch your movie, that's something that you can read about it, but you're standing on the stage, it's different to feel. He's never felt that. But he's a very data driven guy. He's a politician. He likes analytics and numbers. And so, you know, his metrics are like what are the reviews? How have the reviews been? How many positive reviews? He's like, Daniel, this film better get good rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

MG: He's very media savvy.

DANIEL ROHER: He's a media genius and that's his thing. He found out about the Oscars because he was in his cell the morning after, two days after, and the Russian radio station that they play in the prison cell was doing a recap of the Academy Awards and they omitted from their recap the documentary category entirely.

MG: Which signaled to him that it had won.

DANIEL ROHER: He was like, oh, that's excellent news. That's terrific. And he was really delighted for all of us. And he understood that people would see the movie, even more people would be able to engage with it and find it and see it and that’s what matters.

MG: What do you know about how he's doing?

DANIEL ROHER: Yeah, that's the tough part about all this, Matt. You know, I have had this astounding success that is far beyond my wildest dreams. And it's all predicated on this guy, my friend being in this gulag. Navalny is not doing well. It's as if the regime is trying to murder him in slow motion. It's as if the regime wants the world to forget about him and let him languish into obscurity. And, you know, they've been keeping him in solitary confinement for most of the last six months. That is a particularly brutal type of torture. He can have a pen and paper for like 25, 30 minutes a day. But his spirit is ironclad. He's a really strong guy. So if anyone can survive the ordeal, certainly it's him. But, you know, it's never lost on me. It's never far from our thoughts. When you see me on Oscar night accepting that award, Alexei is on my mind. And the reason why we're there is because we made a film about fighting authoritarianism. We made a film about one brave man and his family and his supporters who are sacrificing everything in the fight against authoritarianism, in the fight of this brutal dictator who we now know is this murderous, genocidal tyrant. And that's heavy. That's a different, I think, weight to carry than some of the other folks who were so honoured to have won one of these. And its responsibility, but I also felt a great deal of stress and guilt alleviate because I understood that I delivered. We did. We did Good bye Alexei and that really matters to me.

MG: You said that in some ways, this is a film about a fight against authoritarianism. It's obviously about Navalny and Russia and Putin, but there's a larger story. And why is that larger story important now, do you think, beyond Russia?

DANIEL ROHER: It's an excellent question. And this is sort of what I've had the privilege of talking about for most of the last year. Authoritarianism is sort of a virus that creeps in or a tide that comes in and then brushes back out. And it is afflicting countries all over the world. You know, you look at Trump in the United States. You look at Bolsonaro in Brazil. You look at Marie Le Pen in France.

MG: You've been talking about Israel.

DANIEL ROHER: I've been talking a lot about Israel. And most recently in Israel where Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister there, is trying to ram through the parliament this judicial reform bill which would strip powers from the judiciary and deliver that power to his own government. And it's moves like that that take place in sort of subtle and nuanced ways around the world that erode democracy and democratic values. So certainly in the context of Israel, having won this award and now having a platform to be able to call a journalist and say, I'd like to speak with you about this thing, I feel it very much is an obligation I have in the spirit of Alexei. This film ends with Alexei saying, you know, authoritarian, and I'm paraphrasing, but these bad guys are only able to proliferate and be bad guys If good people do nothing. Don't be inactive. And that is a message to us all.

MG: Are you encouraged when you see 600,000 people on the streets of Tel Aviv and other cities in Israel standing up against what they see as an existential threat to democracy in their country?

DANIEL ROHER: Absolutely. It is a stress test right now for Israeli democracy. And the fact that the population has mobilized should inspire people all around the world. Good people can't do nothing. And that's why when you look at the Russian context, it's particularly troubling. We haven't seen the level of protesters required to move the needle. Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets when Navalny went back to Russia. It's documented in the film. It was one of the largest unsanctioned protests there in, you know, a decade or something like this. But the regime has so effectively squashed the opposition and so effectively instrumentalized punishment to squash dissent that people are frightened and scared and stay inside.

MG: What does the story of the arrest of the Wall Street Journal journalist Evan Gershkovic tell you about the threat that Putin still poses in that country? People are there trying, and this is a guy who loved Russia, who was there to tell that story and put himself in danger to tell that story and now he finds himself being accused of espionage. What does that tell you about the moment?

DANIEL ROHER: Well, I mean, this is so classic Putin. First off, The Wall Street Journal shouldn't have had anyone there. That's the first thing. It has just become too risky.

MG: You think it's too dangerous for international journalists to be in Russia covering that story?

DANIEL ROHER: Clearly.

MG: Isn't that what Putin wants?

DANIEL ROHER: To frighten people off?

MG: Yeah.

DANIEL ROHER: Yeah, of course, that's what he wants. But at the same time, journalists have to be safe. And we can't have journalists becoming pawns in Putin's game and being arrested and detained arbitrarily on trumped up charges for the sake of a political end. Putin is and at his core like a KGB thug. He's like a mob boss. So this is a classic example of kidnapping someone to extort him from someone else. There's a prisoner in Germany. I don't remember the guy's name, but Christo from our film helped find the evidence to convict this guy of murder. He's an FSB assassin and Putin wants that specific guy back, that one guy. And so the reason why they kidnapped this Wall Street Journal reporter I believe is to try and broker a trade. And Putin knows, okay, they'll scoop up this journalist and in three months, Tony Blinken will call Lavrov and they'll make a deal and they'll get their guy in Germany back.

MG: What sort of danger are you in in talking about this and in telling this story? The opponents of Vladimir Putin have a tendency of falling out of windows or falling off of roofs or suddenly becoming ill with some mystery disease. What sort of danger have you put yourself in?

DANIEL ROHER: Yeah. People like to ask that question.

MG: Because it's a real question.

DANIEL ROHER: Yeah, it's a real question. I guess, you know, my risk assessment is I kind of like roll my eyes at that question. That might sound naive to people listening to this, but the reason why that is is because the people who are thrown out of windows, first and foremost, if you're a Russian citizen, they can throw you out of a window. It's not a problem. It's easy-peasy. For a foreign citizen, there are a list of countries that are sort of like acceptable. Christo Grozev the journalist in my film is Bulgarian. Fair game. I am Canadian. The rules of engagement are that they would not go and murder someone on North American soil. Number one. Number two, I think that they're smart enough to understand that I am not producing original investigative material that condemns them. Christo, again, the subject of my film whose work empowered all of this, he is in great danger. It's clear and understood that they want to kill him. So Christo, he was living in Australia as a private citizen when this all started. He's now not able to go to Europe because it's so dangerous.

MG: What is the path, do you think, for Navalny to find freedom? I mean, is it time? Is it international pressure? What is the way that he gets out of the situation that he's in now?

DANIEL ROHER: Well, you know, the way I sort of think about it is that he has a life sentence. It's just a question of whose life it is, his or Putin's. I don't know if they'll let him out. I can't conceive of a situation where they will, you know, broker a trade to release him, a prisoner swap or something like this. The thing with Russia and certainly what we saw with the collapse of the Soviet Union is that history happens fast. Nothing changes until everything changes. And so Navalny might not get out for 20 years. He might get out next week. And it's just a question of taking sort of a little page out of Navalny’s playbook. And I think something that's a cornerstone value of his is hope. And that's sort of a corny, trite thing, but it's very much, you know, what else do you have if you're him sitting there in the gulag in that little cell other than your hope for the future, your hope to see your wife and children again? And I think that we have to have that hope for him and for the future of his country.

MG: If you could talk to him now, what's the first question you'd ask him?

DANIEL ROHER: Oh, boy, Matt, That's a good one. You know, if I could talk to him now, I probably wouldn't ask him a question. I’d probably tell him about the last six months. I got invited last week to the state dinner. Caroline and I got to go have dinner with the president and the prime minister in Ottawa.

MG: Joe Biden and Justin Trudeau in Ottawa.

DANIEL ROHER: And so he would be super fascinated to hear about that. But the thing that he'd be most interested in is the process of winning an Oscar. It's not an arbitrary just happens in the world. It is a very assertive, competitive campaign. Much like a real political campaign, there are databases and constituencies and voters and targeted advertising and events where you go at hand and endear yourself. And I had to do that for eight months. And I'm very politically active and passionate here. Alexei and I connected because I told him I dream of running for Parliament one day. He thought that was really cool. But I would tell him all about my strategy, all about the ground game, all about sort of the retail politics of running the campaign. I think he'd get a kick out of that.

MG: Before I let you go, I mean, this thing is still sitting here in the studio. How has your life changed in the last few weeks? Does everybody now call and say, here, we have all of these films, these are ideas that we'd like to present you? We'd like you to come to dinner not just with the president and the prime minister, but it's this person, that person. How has your life changed?

DANIEL ROHER: Caroline was joking that after the Academy Awards, like 10 people who we had invited to our wedding who couldn't come, all of a sudden their schedules changed and they wanted to come. But jokes aside. Nothing has changed and everything has changed. You know, for me personally, I feel like my personhood is grounded. I know who I am. I know what I want to do. And what I've been reflecting on in trying to process that which cannot be processed Is that I got here by accident. You know, if you truly are a filmmaker for the love of making films, you don't seek this out. I got here because I followed my creative instincts and I wanted to tell stories that mattered to me and I wanted to make stuff every day and be creative every day. I'm just going to keep doing that and keep following that.

MG: It's exciting to talk to you again as I say, at the end of this part of the story, having spoken to you a couple of times at the beginning of this, when you launched this film. A lot has changed since then. Congratulations.

DANIEL ROHER: Thank you so much, Matt. It's always so cool to be at the CBC where I got my start. So thank you for having me.

MG: There's a nice ring to that. Oscar and Academy Award winner Daniel Roher, well done. Thank you.

DANIEL ROHER: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Daniel Roher is the Oscar winning director of the documentary Navalny. And yes indeed, the Oscar is heavier than you think. The CBC news is next. And then, you just heard Daniel Roher talking about Israel, calling the current protests and the response from the Israeli government a stress test for democracy in that country. The CBC's Susan Bonner is in Tel Aviv. And in six minutes, she joins me with the latest. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and on your CBC Listen app. Stick around.

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ISRAEL

Guest: Susan Bonner

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the surprising and teeny-tiny solution to the rather big problem of elephants invading farmers’ fields in Africa and Asia. That is in 30 minutes. But first, calls for peace as tensions grow in Israel.

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MG: For months, hundreds of thousands of Israelis have taken to the streets to protest. They are worried about proposed changes to their legal system allowing parliament to overturn decisions made by the Supreme Court. The change would give even more power to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Now, in the midst of Passover and Ramadan, Netanyahu has pressed pause on the plan and talks are underway between the different branches of government to try to come to some sort of understanding. Yesterday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke about his concerns for Israel.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We need to see Israel, the Israeli government shifting in its approach. And Canada is saying that as a dear and close and steadfast friend to Israel, we are deeply concerned around the direction that the Israeli government has been taking.

MG: Susan Bonner is host of CBC Radio's The World At 6 and she is in Tel Aviv. Susan, hello.

SUSAN BONNER: Hello there.

MG: We'll get to the issue of judicial reform coming up in just a moment, the issue that has brought hundreds of thousands of people out onto the streets. But we have seen this week, as you will well know, clashes, violent clashes between Israeli police forces and worshippers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as rocket fire from Gaza into southern Israel. This has happened for two straight nights now. What is going on with that situation at the moment?

SUSAN BONNER: Well, it is calm now following those two nights of violence that you just described. During Ramadan, worshippers come to pray in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is one of Islam's holiest sites. And the hostilities erupted when Jerusalem police broke into the mosque to remove what they say was a group of agitators who had barricaded themselves inside following a nightly prayers and were refusing to leave. Now, when the police went in, chaos ensued. The people inside fought with fireworks and rocks. Police had rubber bullets and tear gas. The scenes were violent. You could see police beating some people before arresting them. And police are claiming that they had tried to negotiate to get the men to come out, but the men refused. From Gaza, Hamas fired rockets into southern Israel. Israel retaliated with airstrikes. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying Israel will always respond to what he called Islamic extremists as Israel was facing condemnation, Matt, from Palestinian leaders, the Arab League and Western leaders like Justin Trudeau.

MG: And again, all of this is happening in the context of these larger demonstrations and the sense of unrest in Israel. We've seen these hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets protesting. What's the mood in that country right now?

SUSAN BONNER: Well, it's pretty slowed down and quiet here now because it's Passover. Even the infamous traffic has died down. There are no major protests. The Israeli parliament, the Knesset, is not sitting. But Matt, this country is still on edge, on alert. The crisis is not over. You know, we spoke with a reservist soldier as part of our coverage. Tens of thousands of Army reservists have signed up to take part in these protests against the judiciary reform. Some have even refused to serve, saying they don't want to defend a democracy they don't believe in. And the reservists told us that there's a saying in the Army, we sleep with our boots on in case the call comes to head out the door. It pretty much sums up the sentiment here.

MG: You've been out speaking with some of those protesters. And in addition to the reservists, there is a real sense that this is an existential moment in some ways for the country. What did those protesters tell you in Tel Aviv about the importance from their perspective of this moment in Israel?

SUSAN BONNER: The young people, Matt, are such an important part of this story, and they have just shown up in a way that Israel has never seen by the tens of thousands. And the young people that we spoke to say they really do feel like they’re part of something for the first time. This is a fight, the way they see it, for the future, the kind of future that they want. And it is different from the traditional debates in this country, liberal versus conservative, secular versus religious. To them, it comes down to what kind of society will emerge. Israel is polarized right now in a way that it has been enhanced by this issue. It is now personal. Supporters of Netanyahu's plans dismiss the protesters as lefties and privileged elites. And the students say that's not true, that they want to make sure there's a check on government, any government that tries to infringe on basic rights. Listen to how Noah Haliva, a philosophy student, put it.

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NOAH HALIVA: This is not the democracy we hoped for. This is not what we voted for. This is personal interest. And we're trying to protect our sisters and wives, our gay friends, the minorities in this country. And so to categorize it as elites and as left wing and all of the people that live in a bubble and the Ashkenazi, we have Ashkenazi Sephardic. And it's not the case. We’re simply trying to defend Israel as a democracy.

MG: Among those who have been speaking out, I mean, there have been editorials and people commenting on television programs, is the bestselling Israeli historian and author Yuval Noah Harari. You spoke with him. As a historian, how does he understand this moment and the impact of these reforms that have been proposed?

SUSAN BONNER: He thinks it is a profound moment. He is completely consumed with this issue. You know, Matt, he told us that he's supposed to be writing a book right now on artificial intelligence, but he just can't get his work done because all of his time is being spent on this. He's spoken at rallies, written op eds, he's doing interviews. He does not trust the Netanyahu government or its motives. But he pointed out that, you know, Israel does not have a constitution or a bill of rights. There are what's called basic laws, but they are not formally constituted. And Harari, like many here, believe it's actually time that Israel get down to the business of crafting a constitution. He says democracy is about much more than who wins an election and that governments should not be allowed to do whatever they want just because they win a majority or in Netanyahu's case, cobble together a coalition to form a majority. Here's what Harari told us.

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YUVAL NOAH HARARI: In Israel, the only limit on the power of the government is the Supreme Court. If the coalition government wants to pass a law that say takes away voting rights from Arabs or criminalizes homosexuality, there is only one check on its power. There is only one institution that can prevent it, which is the Supreme Court. And now they are trying to gain control of the Supreme Court. And once they do that, they can really pass any law or regulation they want. And they already declared their intention of passing many laws or regulations which will infringe on the liberties of Israelis.

MG: After the protests continued to gain strength, Netanyahu pushed pause on these reforms. And there have been this week talks on how to move forward with the proposals. What do we know about those negotiations?

SUSAN BONNER: The short answer is not very much. The talks are happening behind closed doors, Matt. They're being led by Israel's president, Isaac Herzog. It's not really clear what is on or off the table. What is clear is that there's not much hope of an agreement that will please both sides. The opposition parties who are part of the talks say they simply don't trust the government. They don't trust the process. The protesters worry that this is all just a stalling tactic, a ruse to try to take the steam out of the momentum of the protests. This week, several of his ministers have said the package will be put before parliament for a vote right after Passover.

MG: And there are, as you said, people who support these reforms. What are they saying about why this is the right move right now for Israel?

SUSAN BONNER: Well, that goes back to the great divide here, Matt. Netanyahu has a strong base of supporters. And many of them believe that the court has too much say, it's too activist, that unelected judges can strike down laws. There are among Netanyahu's base more extreme voices who say government should have the power to shape society in the way that it sees fit. We spoke with someone who called Benjamin Netanyahu courageous for pausing his reforms and angering his supporters, even some of those extremists. Dan Ilouz is a member of Netanyahu's Likud Party. He was born and raised in Montreal. He's a law grad from McGill University. He says reform is needed and the crisis just proves Israel's democracy is robust. Here's Dan Ilouz.

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DAN ILOUZ: I'm a strong supporter of the judicial reforms and I think that they will strengthen Israel's democracy.

SUSAN BONNER: Why?

DAN ILOUZ: I think that they give more power to the people. At the end of the day, the public protests made us pause the legislation right now, and that's just a show of the strength of Israeli democracy, that at the end of the day, there are people out there who are checking what we're doing and we can just do whatever we want as elected officials.

MG: This has obviously gobbled up a lot of oxygen given the scale of the protests and the scale of the issues at play. But there are other things that are unfolding in the region right now. And I just wonder how this thing, this issue has impacted conversations about everything else that's going on in the region.

SUSAN BONNER: This is a dangerous neighbourhood. Israel has a lot of enemies. Iran, Syria, Islamic extremist groups. Just this week, Matt, Benjamin Netanyahu appeared with his defence minister, Yoav Gallant, who he had fired for speaking out against the reforms. Well, it turns out he's still on the job. Netanyahu says he needs him due to “a deteriorating security situation.” We spoke, Matt, with Avi Issacharoff, who is the co-creator and the writer of the international hit series Fauda. That series Dramatizes the intensity of this neighbourhood. Issacharoff is a former journalist and a respected analyst. And here's what he says about this crisis.

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AVI ISSACHAROFF: So we are facing really huge threats on a security level. And this government, instead of dealing with that, is obsessed with one thing and one thing only. Meaning dealing with the so-called real new enemy, which is the people, the Israeli people on the other side, the ones that are against the judicial reform. They became the enemy. The others can wait. First will get rid of them, then will take care of the enemies.

MG: As part of your time in the region, you went to Ramallah in the West Bank. What did people there tell you about how what is unfolding in Israel might impact them in that occupied West Bank?

SUSAN BONNER: You know, Matt, it was really interesting. Obviously, the people in Ramallah know about the protests, but they tell us they're not really invested in them. They say it's not their issue. They're focussed on the hardships of daily life under Israeli occupation. And some say even if the protesters were successful, it would really only take Israel back to where it was several months ago, which is, in their view, not what they need. We visited the Arab American University in Ramallah. Professor Dalal Iriqat said she had a message that she wanted to send to Israeli democracy protesters. Here it is.

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DALAL IRIQAT: We're looking at the Israeli side and the protests that we have been witnessing in the past week. The efficacy that the Israeli public had shown to the world sends a message that the Israeli public is also capable in their protest and their civilized way of resisting and ending the Israeli occupation. I really hope that the Liberals in Israel, the new liberals, the leftists, the pro-peace people would do the same exact protest, you know, against the Israeli occupation and apartheid against the Palestinian people.

SUSAN BONNER: And Matt, you know, there was one Supreme Court decision this week that has a lot of resonance for protesters and perhaps for some Palestinians, a court case that had been at play for decades about a move to evict a Palestinian family from East Jerusalem. This was launched by a pro-settler group. It was denied by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said that the family can stay. And legal advocates are saying that is a shining example of how the Supreme Court in Israel can and does protect the rights of minorities as it exists now.

MG: Susan, a fascinating time to be in what is always a fascinating place. Thank you very much for this.

SUSAN BONNER: Thank you, Matt.

MG: The CBC’s Susan Bonner. She is in Tel Aviv.

[music]

DTES ENCAMPMENTS

Guest: Nicole Mucci

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway.

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ADAM PALMER: The encampment is unsafe. We've had shootings, stabbings, assaults, people shot with crossbows, handguns, multiple stabbings and acts of violence. But these facts, along with the extreme fire risk, has now made this encampment untenable.

MG: That's Vancouver's police chief, Adam Palmer, describing an encampment along East Hastings Street in Vancouver's downtown Eastside. Yesterday, city workers moved in to remove dozens of tents and makeshift structures from the sidewalks. Over the past few months, hundreds of shelters have been removed, but some people have refused to leave. Mike Irwin lives in the area.

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MIKE IRWIN: I don't think it's right at all. They haven't specified where they're going to put all the people. They've just said that they're going to house their stuff in black bins. And where are all the people going? Like do you know how many people are living in these three block area? It's a lot of people. This is a serious situation, right? If we don't have a place to live, what are we supposed to do?

MG: Nicole Mucci is with Union Gospel Mission. It provides food, shelter and addiction services to people in the area. Nicole, good morning.

NICOLE MUCCI: Good morning.

MG: What does that area of East Hastings look like this morning?

NICOLE MUCCI: So this morning coming into work, there were very few tents compared to what had been around yesterday or even the day before. However, one thing I would point out is that even though the tents aren't necessarily set up along Hastings anymore, a quick drive down several of the side streets showed me that many of the tents have simply relocated.

MG: And for people who may not be familiar with that area of the Downtown Eastside, can you just briefly describe what it was like before yesterday's clear out?

NICOLE MUCCI: So before yesterday, along the East Hastings corridor between kind of near the East Hastings and Main Street intersection and then spanning two blocks east or two blocks west, there were probably between 80 to 100 tents kind of set up that hadn't been removed because the city had over the last several days prior to yesterday, had also started removing structures. And so it's been a very densely populated and kind of chaotic scene for the last few months.

MG: I mean, we just heard a little bit of Mike Irwin who lives in the area. Were people who live in those structures, were they prepared for what happened yesterday? Did they know that this might be coming?

NICOLE MUCCI: Well, what we saw yesterday is a lot of people who didn't have anywhere to go, right? So if every single person who was removed yesterday actually accepted the offer of shelter from the city, there actually wouldn't have been enough spaces for everyone. And so the question of preparedness isn't necessarily one just for those who are living in the encampments, but also for what was going to happen if everybody had accepted an offered shelter space.

MG: And as you mentioned, I mean, some of those who are along East Hastings have moved to some of the areas, the alleyways that are just off of that street. But as that clear-out was going on, I mean, just describe what was happening. People may have seen images of, for example, garbage trucks moving through the area. What was happening to people's belongings?

NICOLE MUCCI: So yesterday, I was down there. And what we saw was individuals whose belongings were either being put into bins that were labelled personal belongings. And if they weren't necessarily right at their tent, their items were being put into garbage trucks. And there was just so many police and there was so many city workers and there were, of course, advocates and Downtown Eastside community members who were there trying to I guess share support and solidarity for those whose belongings were being removed from them.

MG: We just heard the chief of police in Vancouver say that this is a public safety issue, that there were assaults, shootings, stabbings, police officers had been assaulted, There were fires. The new mayor of Vancouver, Ken Sim, said that his party in some ways had run on a campaign of public safety. And he spoke yesterday about what was going on. Take a listen to what Ken Sim had to say.

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KEN SIM: Listen, we need to restore Hastings as a street that is safe and welcoming to everyone. The challenges that we see today did not emerge overnight and they will not be solved overnight. But with today's announcement, I am confident that we are making a step in the right direction.

MG: Do you think that the situation before what happened yesterday was tenable?

NICOLE MUCCI: No, but it's been that way for a long time. And it wasn't just people setting up tents along Hastings that created opportunities for violence or the fires that were being set. Something we have to remember is that many of the fires that were set were because people are homeless and they were trying to keep warm and they had nowhere else to go. They didn't have somewhere to stay warm overnight or through the day. The violence that has occurred in the Downtown Eastside is awful and there is no easy answer for it. But if we look from a historical standpoint, we know that the Downtown Eastside has this very complex and complicated history. We can go all the way back kind of to the 1980s when one of our biggest mental health facilities shut down and many of the patients were brought to the Downtown Eastside to live in single room occupancy housing. And many of those lacked the adequate mental and physical health supports that were needed in order for people to be well and thrive. And then in addition to that happening, we had the heroin, the heroin crisis that began in the 80s. And then in 1993, the federal government froze funding for social housing initiatives and kept future spending at 1993 levels for a very long time. And so in order for the Downtown Eastside to get to the point that it's at, it has been a very long time coming. And what we saw yesterday with the decampment isn't great. Nobody won yesterday. Everybody lost something. We know that, you know, there were many people who lost their belongings. There are many others, not even just residents of the Downtown Eastside, but other Vancouverites or Metro Vancouverites who perhaps have lost faith in the system or are questioning the system. And for many others, the question that we're all kind of asking now is how we can best walk alongside those who are most impacted by the ongoing housing crisis that remains because there are many people who are staying in shelters currently that are very ready and willing and wanting to be housed, but there is literally nowhere for them to go.

MG: So when Ken Sim says that part of this is about making East Hastings Street and the Downtown Eastside safe for everybody, that there are people who live there, there are businesses that are there, what about those? Again, this is not an easy fix and it's a really complicated, nuanced situation. But what about those interests?

NICOLE MUCCI: Well, the thing that we have to consider is that the safety and dignity of all people in the community needs to be considered. And we absolutely agree and can empathize with that because every single person deserves to live somewhere that they feel safe. They deserve to be in an area that they feel dignified and that they know is going to be an okay place to be. But that also applies to the individuals who are living in those tents who have nowhere else to go. And so we need to look at a broader systemic answer to what is happening. We need a multi-level approach. And if there was nowhere to send people yesterday, like what is actually going to be the outcome of what happened?

MG: What do you think? I mean, we're almost out of time, but what do you think the outcome of this is if there is not enough shelter space? The expectation from many people who were there yesterday is that those encampments, that those tents will return because people don't have anywhere else to go.

NICOLE MUCCI: They really don't have anywhere else to go. And I think no one person should really be told either that their housing options are, you know, potentially violence filled, dilapidated building. Inside, they could have infestations or mould or worse. And so we know that the provincial government is working to get housing online. And hopefully, we're going to see 300 units become available in June. And I really, really hope that that is the case. But we also have to remember that hundreds of units were also lost in fires and old buildings no longer being livable last year. And so we're not really getting a net positive increase in housing for the Downtown Eastside. And what we need to see is just much more quick movement when it comes to creating spaces for people to live.

MG: Nicole, thanks for this. I'm really glad to talk to you.

NICOLE MUCCI: Yeah. Thank you very much. Have a good day.

MG: And you. Nicole Mucci is communications manager at Union Gospel Mission, working in the downtown Eastside of Vancouver. Well, coming up after your regional update, I’m going to tell you the story, and this is really interesting, of how buzzing honeybees and even just the sound of buzzing bees are helping elephant conservation in Africa and Asia. How could humans better coexist with elephants? We'll tell you in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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ELEPHANTS AND BEES

Guests: Lucy King, Purity Milgo

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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[elephant rumble]

MG: What is that? That is the low rumble of the largest land mammal on earth. The African elephant can weigh up to 11 tons. It can cause a lot of damage, especially to farmers’ fields. And researchers say something very small may help solve this rather large problem.

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[buzzing bees]

MG: The answer, they say, bees. The tiny insect may be just the thing to keep the elephants from destroying crops and crops getting killed.

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[elephant trumpet]

MG: Lucy King is head of the Human Elephant Coexistence Program of Save the Elephants based in Nairobi. She's also a research associate in the Department of Biology at the University of Oxford. Lucy, Hello.

LUCY KING: Hi there.

MG: That’s a lot of really interesting sounds that we just heard. Can you walk us through a bit of what we just heard?

LUCY KING: Yes. So you've just heard some of the most incredible rumbles from elephants listening to disturbed African honeybees in Samburu Game Reserve, which is in northern Kenya where I did five years of my PhD research. And it was one of the most spectacular times of my life really delving into this folklore that elephants might be scared of honeybees, if you can believe it.

MG: How did people figure that out that a giant elephant would be afraid of a tiny little bee?

LUCY KING: Well, it really is a folklore. And this was discovered, the folklore itself was discovered by the chairman of Save the Elephants, Professor Frits Vohra, and the founder of Save the Elephants, Dr. Douglas-Hamilton. And they had heard that people were saying that elephants wouldn't touch certain trees that had beehives. And so when they interrogated this and really questioned the farmers who told them this, these pastoralists, they said, yes, that we all know that elephants won’t damage acacia trees with beehives. And so they did a small experiment just by monitoring those beehives in the trees. And sure enough, the elephants didn't go near those particular trees and they certainly didn't knock them over like they were doing with other trees in the area. So I came on board back in 2006 to study this for my master's and PhD under Frits and Ian. And we've spent over 15 years now really investigating this folklore, but with real science. And sure enough, it turns out that elephants not only run away from bees, they won't touch trees with them and they will also rumble to each other to warn each other that there are bees in the area and to stay away, which is a really fantastic discovery that we made.

MG: I mean, it sounds obvious in some ways, but do we know why they would be afraid of the bees? Is it the sound of the bees? Is it the fact that the bees might sting them? What's going on there?

LUCY KING: Yes. It seems impossible that a tiny bee could sting through an African elephant’s skin. It's actually two centimetres thick on most of the body. So actually, the bee can’t sting through most of its skin. But bees are very attracted to the watery areas of an elephant and in fact any animal. So the bees can go to the eyes, to the mouth, up the trunk. And what the elephant is not scared of is one bee sting. But African bees have this phenomenal capability. As they sting, the release of pheromone triggers other bees in their colony to attack the same place. So these elephants are not actually scared of one bee. They're scared of many hundreds of bees coming to sting the same place as the bees try and defend their hive and their honey from a potential attacker. So that's what's really happening there. And these elephants, of course, have phenomenal memories. So if they get stung even once in their life and they remember that pain, they won't forget. And so they will avoid going back to an area where there are, you know, aggressive bees.

MG: Just a side note. You said the elephants have a phenomenal memory. I mean, that's the stuff of mythology as well, right? The elephant never forgets. And it's actually true.

LUCY KING: It is actually true. It has been shown time and again a lot through some domestic elephants as well who were unfortunately in a zoo situation or a circus situation. And then remembering either their friends, elephant friends or even their keepers years if not decades later. So we know that's true that they have incredible memories. And of course, they remember how to cross the landscape. So they might only go to certain areas in the bush every 10 years when there's a drought, but every 10 years they will remember where to go. So we know we have so many stories and anecdotes of why elephants do have truly amazing memories.

MG: That's amazing. All right. Back to the heart of the story, which is, as I said, these are big beasts that can cause a lot of damage. And so having learned that bees could frighten elephants, there was work that was done to perhaps employ this to protect those farmers’ fields. And one of the first bits of that work was the bee fence. What is that?

LUCY KING: Yes, So that was what I designed during my PhD days. It was an idea I had as I was in the bush thinking about how can we use bees to stop elephants naturally from going inside areas we don't want them to go into, which was typically going into farmer's’ fields. They can cause a lot of damage from crop raiding and is creating a lot of human-elephant conflict. So I designed this bee hive fencing, what we call it, which is a series of interlinking beehives, one to the other around the outside of a boundary. And they’re linked just with a piece of plain wire. No electricity at all. And the hives are hung between posts. And we put a beehive every 10 or 20 metres around the outside of a farm. And if an elephant tries to push through into the farm, he actually will knock into the wire which connects the hives. And as they swing, they release the bees. And as we know from our experiments, the bees will scare the elephant away. And this has been incredibly successful. We've had around 80% success in keeping elephants out of farms with live beehives around. So we've been trying to deploy this around Africa and Asia and getting very excited about the uptake and the fact that not only does it keep elephants out of farms, but it's helping farmers with honey production, better pollination for their crops and people are finding it a really enjoyable pass time as well. So it's a really successful story and we're really thrilled at how many people have taken this up over the last few years.

MG: But if you don't have live bees and you still want to employ this, there is another way forward, right?

LUCY KING: That's right. So with colleagues of ours from Wild Survivors, which is a fantastic charity, we've come up with a really novel and cheap buzz box, which is the name they've given to this contraption which can carry the sound of bees. And these buzz boxes are only about $100, so incredibly reasonable, and they have an infrared trigger. So if you put one of these buzz boxes on top of a post outside of your farm or perhaps outside of your school or your compound and an elephant walks within 30 metres of this buzz box, it will trigger the sound of bees. And this has been a really fantastic adaptation of this idea that elephants will run away from bees, which might be appropriate for places where it's not ideal to have live bees. And for those areas such as outside a school or a church or maybe a police compound, you really don't want to have a live beehive right there. So this buzz box has been fantastic. And we've been trialling these in Tanzania, in Kenya and now in Liberia, which have had some really fantastic results recently.

MG: So I want to go to where this is being trialled. We're going to speak with your colleague Purity Milgo who is a research officer with Save the Elephants involved in this project. She's in Samburu, Kenya. Purity, hello to you.

PURITY MILGO: Hello, how are you?

MG: I'm really well. Can you just describe the area that you work in? What does it look like?

PURITY MILGO: So where I am currently is in Samburu and we're based in the Samburu National Reserve here in Kenya. And so far, we've had quite a few days of rain and it's lush and green and it's filled with elephants.

MG: Hmm. It sounds like an amazing place.

PURITY MILGO: It is.

MG: Yeah. So tell me about the buzz box. What does it look like? What is it?

PURITY MILGO: It's a device, small device About maybe 15 by 10 centimetres. And as Dr. Lucy King mentioned, it has an infrared sensor where if an object, a big object such as an elephant passes across it, it emits bee sounds. So we trialled it in four farms in Kenya and we used 16 buzz boxes and we had successful results. And so we trialled them mostly in farms that had bee occupancy in their beehive fences and yeah, it was a successful experiment.

MG: Tell me more about that. What did you see when you hung the B boxes around?

PURITY MILGO: So in addition to the four buzz boxes, we also included two camera traps. And we had actual photographic evidence of elephants turning away from farms, which was quite interesting. Yeah, it's a really amazing discovery. And in addition to that, we also noticed that the buzz box deters baboons away from farms, which is something that we weren't expecting. It was really cool to see.

MG: Added bonus.

PURITY MILGO: Yeah, exactly.

MG: Do you know why it works so well?

LUCY KING: I think the reason why it works so well is because of the bees. You know, we all know that elephants are scared of bee sounds. So if this device has the ability to do that and it does it at a high volume, which kind of in a way sounds closer towards the elephant. So it causes the elephant to panic and then it causes it to run away from farms, which I think works brilliantly and effectively. And it works really, really fast.

MG: Did you say at a high volume? I mean, so it's not just a subtle sound of a bee, it sounds like a swarm of bees or something.

PURITY MILGO: Exactly like a massive swarm of bees.

MG: And they don't hang around. I mean, they turn and get out of there pretty quickly.

PURITY MILGO: Yes, they do. They don't come back. They go. If you look at the tracks on our study, you would see we actually tracked their footpath and you could see a U-turn. It basically looks like a U-turn around the farm and they don't return.

MG: Lucy King, why is it important that this works now? I mean, again, we were saying that they can cause a lot of damage in farmers’ fields. What is that damage that a herd of elephants might unleash if these buzz boxes or the hives aren't actually there?

LUCY KING: Yes. We're seeing an increase of human-elephant conflict across parts of Africa where we work. And this is due to multiple reasons. But in Kenya, the last two and a half years, we've had an incredibly intensive drought. So a lot of our beehive fences, which have otherwise been very successful, we've lost a lot of our honeybees because of this severe drought. So the less water there is, the less rain, there’s less flower. And less flowers is less nectar that the bees don't thrive. So these buzz boxes have basically given the beehive fences strength. So the elephants are still tricked into believing there are bees in the beehive fences. So that's been a really valuable tool to help us through this terrible drought. If those elephants break through, they can cause such damage in the farms and also into the houses as well. So there's very little food around at the moment. So any grain at all, any water that people have are typically stored inside the farm or inside the house within the farm. And if elephants can smell that and they can come right up to the house, we've had stories of elephants literally ripping the roofs of houses as people have slept inside to reach in with their trunk and grab the containers of water or grains or maize that are inside and pull them out to eat them, which, of course, is not only utterly terrifying for the family members, but also incredibly dangerous. I mean, anyone could get killed in that situation, both elephants and people. So what we're trying to do is keep them apart as safely as possible and enable the elephants just to continue on with their lives and allow people to live and sleep safely at night. So these natural, more holistic ways of keeping elephants apart are really important to do. And they have to be low cost because the people we're working with are at the lower end of the economic scale. They don't have extra money to spare for big electric fences or more extravagant deterrents. So these kinds of innovations are really helpful.

MG: Are a lot of elephants being killed in the course of those conflicts?

LUCY KING: Unfortunately, it's getting worse and worse. So in the past, we used to be terribly worried about the ivory trade and poaching of elephants for their ivory. And so much has been done on the international scene to ban the ivory trade, including China, who's now banned both domestic and international ivory trade, which has made a massive difference for reducing poaching. But the problem now is this rapid rise in human-elephant conflict as people and pachyderms clash over space and resources. And we're seeing a much more terrifying rise in deaths of elephants from conflict than we've ever seen previously. In fact, in Samburu where Purity is now in our research camp, we've had more elephants killed than ever before from human-elephant conflict in the last year and a half.

MG: How quickly are we losing them? I mean, I don't know what the number of elephants would be.

LUCY KING: Yeah. It's very hard to say because each area will have its own statistics of how many elephants are being killed. And we have pockets of elephants all around Kenya, for example. So up in Samburu, we have a population that is unfenced. So the elephants are roaming a vast area. And it was around seven and a half thousand in Samburu and we've lost 80 last year just from conflict alone. So it doesn't sound like a lot, but it really is an extraordinary number compared to having just two or three a few years ago from conflict. So we're very worried about this because it's a trend and the trend is rising. And we're hearing this trend across a lot of Africa, not just Kenya. So we have to try and find novel, unique and affordable ways for the rural poor in Africa to live with elephants successfully.

MG: Purity, you're there on the ground. What are people saying to you about losing those elephants, but also what those farmers are up against if to Lucy's point, the elephant comes rampaging through or elephants come rampaging through not just the fields, but then damaging people's homes as well? What does that conflict look like there on the ground?

PURITY MILGO: In Samburu, in northern Kenya in general, it's a different kind of conflict. Yes, it is a conflict between elephants and people, but the communities in northern Kenya mostly practice pastoralism. So the kind of conflict that exists is between livestock and people and the fight for resources. But in Sagala where our HEC program is conducting the study, it's quite a very, very, very serious thing. So farmers are extremely terrified of elephants destroying their crops and them losing their income and food for their family. So it's quite a serious thing here in Kenya. We've actually had like firsthand accounts where farmers are extremely grateful for these tools, you know, for the buzz box, for the Beehive fence. At least they have a chance that obviously, some of the crops that they planted and they can at least get an income from this and they can feed their family and take their children to school. So these tools are quite beneficial to these people.

MG: What is it like to work with elephants, Purity? I mean, I think for a lot of people who will be listening to this, their encounters with elephants are very much at a distance. For you, what is that like?

PURITY MILGO: So for anyone in general working with elephants and for me personally, it's quite an amazing experience. But at the same time, there are worrying moments. It's a beautiful experience studying these beautiful creatures. You know, you get to see their behaviours, you get to see how they move, how they live and how they use the landscape. But at the same time, when you hear of these conflicts and all these situations and instances of HEC you see around these areas, it's quite worrying and it's almost disheartening. But all in all, I think it's one of those things that is important to do, to study these creatures.

MG: For you Lucy, I mean, where did this start for you?

LUCY KING: Yeah. I've just had a real interest in elephants my whole life. I was lucky enough to be brought up in Somalia and Lesotho. And then I moved to Kenya from southern Africa when I was 14. I've spent a lot of time around animals in the bush, and elephants have always caught my heart because of their high, high levels of intelligence and this real sense that you are in the presence of a completely sentient animal who's absolutely aware of everything you're doing and saying. And the characters that we've seen in the elephants that we study is just beyond anything you can really appreciate until you've spent some considerable time with them. And some of the elephants have humour, some of them are cheeky, some of them are bolstery, some of them get angry, you know, you’re never quite sure which elephant you're coming across and you have to be very careful with all of them. But there's a deep pleasure in getting to know their characters. And I think this is why when we're trying to find solutions for people to live with them, we have to really be careful about the ethics because these are highly sentient animals and we have to make sure that no deterrents that we develop are in any way painful for them and we have to try and help communities live with them peacefully. So these beehive fences and the buzz boxes are all part of a new HEC toolbox, which we call as the new human elephant coexistence toolbox. And this toolbox is an entire suite of ideas of how you can live with elephants. So all sorts of mitigation methods that we have designed ourselves or that we have learnt about from other people living with elephants in Africa. So we're really excited about this. We've just produced a 160 page manual on all of these techniques, which has been beautifully illustrated by a woman in Nairobi. And so we've just been launching that over the last few months to try and share ideas. It's completely free. It's available online for anyone to have a look at. And we're sharing this across the African Range state to ensure that people have learnt and know that there are really good ways of how to live peacefully with elephants which don't involve harming them or killing them in any way.

MG: Well, as you said, there's something really powerful about that, that idea of coexistence. There's a humility that's at the heart of it that takes us out of, you know, that primary position and gives us the opportunity in some ways to live with these things.

LUCY KING: Absolutely. We've always lived with them. It's only in the last 50 years or so that we seem to have managed to not live with them. You know, the elephant and some people have lived on this planet for millions of years. So it's incredibly important that we somehow find our way back there. And the biggest challenge is the loss of space. So elephants are fine. They're perfectly fine on their own. Why they're coming into conflict with us is because people and humans have taken more and more of their space up, whether it's for farmland or for roads or parks or all sorts of railways, ports, all sorts of things have been built in the last 50 years which have taken land away from not only elephants, but many other creatures in Africa. So we are basically forcing them into smaller and smaller areas. And elephants cannot be forced into small areas. They migrate and walk over huge, vast areas, thousands of kilometres every year. So we've created this situation ourselves. So it's up to us to come up with some solutions. And it's about self-educating ourselves how to live with these animals again because we can't afford not to live with elephants. They're absolutely fundamental for the health of our planet. And many of the tree species which the forests of Africa thrive off are seedlings that have to pass through the guts of an elephant to be germinated. So it's very important that we have elephants roaming Africa for the health of our entire planet. So yes, it's in our mission of Save the Elephants to try and find a harmonious way for the two of us to live together. But it's certainly not easy and there's a lot more research to be done. And, you know, researchers like Purity who've joined us are fantastic. And we're developing a really fantastic group of young Kenyans who are joining this mission and all scientists trying to help us discover and expand these ways of how to live with each other.

MG: Purity, do you think, just finally, that it’s possible to be able to live with these elephants?

PURITY MILGO: I think with a bit more work, there's light at the end of the tunnel. I think it's possible.

MG: The work that you're doing is fascinating. Thank you both for telling us about the work that you're up to.

LUCY KING: Thank you. Thanks for your interest.

PURITY MILGO: Thank you. Thank you so much.

MG: Take care. Thank you. Bye bye.

PURITY MILGO: Bye.

LUCY KING: Bye.

MG: Lucy King is head of the Human Elephant Coexistence Program with Save the Elephants based in Nairobi. Purity Milgo is a research officer with that organization and she was in Samburu, Kenya. This is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway. Age ain't nothing but a number. That is an old cliche, but it has some truth to it. We were speaking earlier this week with two researchers about something called subjective age, a term that is used to describe how old a person feels rather than their chronological age. Ageing, it turns out, is a rather popular topic in our inbox. The Current's senior producer Karin Marley is here with some of your mail. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Matt. So we have a first letter from Vanessa Johnstone who writes, “Being the daughter of a mother who had me at 45, I have been aware of ageing and the difference between actual age and subjective age since my youth. My mother, who recently passed away at 95, often said that having me at 45 helped keep her young. She led a healthy and active lifestyle, which included shovelling snow until the age of 85 in cold Saskatoon winters.” Impressive.

MG: Yes.

KARIN MARLEY: “Her joyful and grateful approach to life certainly contributed to her Many lived years, and she appeared and felt far younger than her actual age.”

MG: This next letter is from Sue Fukushima. She writes, “I'm turning 64 in June, still play bass in a rock band called Too Many Girls. Over the last year, I studied Norwegian for a trip that we took a month ago. You are never too old to learn something if you are interested and dedicate the time.”

KARIN MARLEY: David Donaldson is in St. Catharines, Ontario and he writes, “I discovered backcountry canoe trips at 61 years old. I do feel 45ish. Of course my humour is still 17. I am in no position to retire and the contract position I now have is coming to an end. I have to fight ageism directly as a job hunt. This has forced me to manipulate my resume. I removed the year of my B.A. from Wilfrid Laurier, 1982. Most HR managers weren't born yet. A challenge for me and many others in this age.”

MG: Waldo Berg is in Stony Rapids, Saskatchewan, and Waldo writes, “I'm fine with the age I am, 69, on the brink of 70. Looking forward to the next decade. There's an ad on tv right now that starts with age is just a number and mine's unlisted. I'd say I feel 50ish and I'm still enjoying life very much. I certainly attribute it at least part to good genes. My dad lived to 92. I have a cousin who's in his late seventies and is still running marathons. And I just ordered a couple of caps from Amazon that say it's weird being the same age as old people.” I might need one of those hats.

KARIN MARLEY: Indeed. Carmen Mills writes from Vancouver, “I am 59 and I feel like Carmen at 59. Curious, adventurous, uncertain and okay with it.”

MG: Virginia Labelle in Whitehorse, Yukon writes, “For me, As a 68 year old, I try to think more about the qualities of being young that I want to maintain as I age. Enthusiasm, curiosity, a sense of adventure and good health. Sometimes I feel reluctant to volunteer my age in conversation because of the preconceived ageist ideas held by many. But at the same time, I want to let people know how old I am perhaps to change their perception of what 68 can be.”

KARIN MARLEY: And Donna Graham writes from Summerland, B.C. “Recently, I completed my application for the Canadian Pension Plan, a concrete example that I am truly a senior. I recently retired from my third career and I'm looking for my next adventure. I summon the childlike spirit that still lives bright within, which reminds me how much fun it is to caw-caw-caw to the crows who sit atop the ponderosa pines, to wade into Okanagan Lake in my jeans and to roll on the fresh spring grass dotted with purple violets.”

MG: Nicely done with crows. That makes you feel young at the very least. Karin Marley, thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer here at The Current. Thanks to everybody who wrote in. You can comment on anything that you hear on this program and some of your letters will yes indeed end up on the radio. Email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. Or even better, send us a voice memo. Just record it on your phone and just email it to us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. That is The Current for this Thursday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. It is of course Good Friday tomorrow. We will be here. A couple of stories. One, we will mark the anniversary of the Good Friday Accord in Northern Ireland. We’ll speak with people who grew up in the generation after that and talk about their experiences. We'll also hear, as is tradition, the voice of the late great Stuart McLean and the Vinyl Cafe. That is tomorrow on The Current. To take us out this morning, a song about age and age just really being a number. It's Bob Dylan, Forever Young. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

[Song: “Forever Young” by Bob Dylan]

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Thursday April 6, 2023 Episode Transcript

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