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The Current Transcript for March 31, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE SPEAKER: You fought for a public inquiry and you have called for meaningful change. The final report can be the blueprint for that change. We heard you. Please know, we heard you.

MATT GALLOWAY: For nearly three years, members of the small rural Nova Scotia community of Portapique have been waiting for answers. How did a local man kill 22 people over a span of 13 terrifying hours? How did the RCMP missed numerous red flags about the perpetrator’s behaviour before the tragedy? And why did the police force fail to keep this community safe as the attacks unfolded? Yesterday, the report from a public inquiry delivered some of those answers. It is a scathing indictment of the RCMP, a call to reform policing in Canada and a demand to treat intimate partner violence as a public health emergency. This morning, we speak with the chief commissioner of that inquiry, we talk to the RCMP top cop in Nova Scotia on what it will take for those still suffering here to regain trust in police, and we hear from family members of those lost in the tragedy about the good they still see in this world. Good morning from Halifax. I'm Matt Galloway and this is a special edition of The Current.

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DARCY DOBSON

Guests: Darcy Dobson, Michael Scott

MG: On the morning of Sunday April 19th, 2020, Heather O'Brien left her home to get some coffee for her daughters. Along the way, she pulled over to make a phone call to a friend. A man in a replica RCMP cruiser pulled up beside her Volkswagen Jetta and shot her. Heather was one of 22 people killed during a 13-hour rampage in and around Portapique, Nova Scotia. Heather O'Brien's daughter is Darcy Dobson, and I sat down with her minutes after the report from a public inquiry into this tragedy was released in a hotel in Truro, about an hour north of Halifax. Michael Scott joined us. He's a lawyer representing Darcy along with a number of others who lost family members. Hello to you both.

DARCY DOBSON: Hi.

MICHAEL SCOTT: Thanks for having us.

MG: Thank you for being here. How are you doing?

DARCY DOBSON: Good.

MG: Yeah?

DARCY DOBSON: Relatively. Yes.

MG: Tell me about the relatively. This has been a day, I'm sure.

DARCY DOBSON: Yeah, it's definitely an emotional day, but I was pleasantly surprised by some of the things that were said in the report. So I'm relatively good right now.

MG: At the beginning of the report, there is a tribute to the people who were lost in this incident. And you wrote about your mom.

DARCY DOBSON: Yes.

MG: Can you tell me a little bit about who she was? You describe her as somebody who made a home that was a safe space for young people, that she was defined by her kindness. Tell me a bit about her.

DARCY DOBSON: My mom was a very kind person. She would give you the shirt off her back. She loved kids. She had a pile of them. So it goes without saying that everybody just felt safe around her. She was like a safe place to land. So it's a different world without her in it, especially like for the next generation that is her grandchildren.

MG: And it sounded like she really lived a life kind of at maximum range, right? Love playing crib at the Legion and stuff like that.

DARCY DOBSON: Yeah. Yeah, she did. She definitely did. She was certainly a very content person. She was very happy.

MG: And deeply involved with the community as well.

DARCY DOBSON: As a VON nurse, she ended up going back to work in the community that she grew up in. So it was kind of a beautiful thing in a way because people who watched her grow up, she got to help them through their retirement years, which has its own beauty in itself.

MG: This has been a long road to get to today. And I just wonder, what were you hoping to see?

DARCY DOBSON: I think my hope was realistic recommendations that could be implemented. And I think we did get there to a certain point. I will say I was pleasantly surprised by what the commissioners did, especially when a lot of the time it felt like they weren't listening. So it was kind of nice to open the report and be like, okay, like maybe they did listen to some things.

MG: I was downstairs when the release of the report was done. And there were a number of people from the community who walked out and in very strong language, felt as though they had been ignored and that they hadn't been listened to. And they said that as they were walking out. Was that the sense from a lot of people that the commissioners and the commission wasn't listening?

DARCY DOBSON: Oh, absolutely. Especially like for family members and those most affected. There were certainly times that you knew you weren't being listened to or you were being blatantly ignored.

MG: Can you give me an example of that?

DARCY DOBSON: I just think when it came to RCMP witnesses especially, there was no cross-examination. And the commission would have you believe that there was this collaboration between participant and participant counsel. And they took the questions back and then they made a decision on what they were going to ask. And a lot of the times, things weren't asked that were from our point of view. So it just really did feel like we were almost like a pest to them. And I mean, the whole reason that the commission ever sat is because we fought for it. So to be kind of treated like you're not being listened to is a different way to feel, definitely.

MG: You felt like you were a pest?

DARCY DOBSON: Yeah. Yeah. Certainly.

MG: That's an amazing way to characterize that. I mean, this was, as you said, because you fought for this, but it's also because of what happened to your family.

DARCY DOBSON: Right. Yep.

MG: How do you understand that, that they would think of you as a pest? Where do you think that was coming from? Why would the commission have that perspective?

DARCY DOBSON: What they did was they were like, this is what we want to do. We want to have this trauma informed. And I say that because it was not trauma informed.

You were doing kind of like quotation marks.

DARCY DOBSON: Quotations. Yes. This trauma informed committee of people who sit down and only tell you what you want to hear when the truth is all we needed were answers. And I mean, everybody saw the public proceedings that the trauma informed was meant to protect the RCMP officers.

MG: And that's what you felt happened, that the RCMP officers were protected.

DARCY DOBSON: Right. And we were not.

MG: Mike, you've been listening to this. From your perspective, as you saw this unfold, what were you most concerned about going into this process, a process that had to be fought for? I mean, initially, this inquiry wasn't going to happen and it was family members and members of the community that fought for it. What were you most concerned about going into this?

MICHAEL SCOTT: I think what we were most concerned about was that the commission was going to try to follow a process that we thought was deeply misguided. And so as we were getting ready to start the commission, we had far more questions than we should have had. And to some extent, our concerns materialized through public proceedings because we did have serious issues with the process that was chosen. You know, if the Marshall Inquiry is the gold standard of what a public inquiry should be, then the Mass Casualty Commission is, you know, a perfect example of how not to do a public inquiry.

MG: What went wrong?

MICHAEL SCOTT: You know, there's clearly two very different philosophical ideas on what an inquiry is. And from our perspective, it has been the more traditional approach. It's a fact finding process. It's an investigation out loud. And that requires transparency and candour and honesty. And we got the sense we were being resisted. There was a no surprise environment in terms of public testimony. There were obvious questions that weren't followed up on.

MG: Do you feel that the RCMP, as Darcy is saying, were being protected in some ways and through the way that members of the force were testifying and the lack of the cross-examination that some people would be looking for?

MICHAEL SCOTT: Certainly. From the outside, it appeared not so much that the commission was intentionally protecting RCMP officers, but that the RCMP was availing itself of the MCC's processes. Because if you notice, none of the witnesses from the participants ever required any sort of accommodation. They were all willing to. No matter how difficult it was to testify, to come forward. And it would be upsetting and it would be difficult, but they would do it. You know, but to some extent, the RCMP was able to avail themselves of a process that the MCC made available to them.

MG: Darcy, What did you learn from this report as it came in? And again, it's very fresh, I know, and it's 3000 pages, so there's still a lot of, I'm sure, to go through if you want to do that. But what did you learn?

DARCY DOBSON: I think what I learned is how not to do a public inquiry. But I think as the recommendations came out and we looked at things, I was almost hopeful with the way that they have so many recommendations for policing in this province and federally.

MG: Tell me more about that. I mean, in talking with people who live in the communities, that they've lost the sense of trust in police, and it's really hard to gain that back. When you look at the recommendations, what stands out to you about how that trust, perhaps if those recommendations were implemented, could be gained?

DARCY DOBSON: That is definitely going to be a process, especially in the small communities that we live in, like to regain that trust because it’s certainly lost. There will never be a moment in my life that I see an RCMP cruiser go down the road and shivers don't go down my spine, which is unfortunate because there is a mistrust there. But the truth of it is the RCMP have done nothing to regain. They don't see an issue. So for the final report to come out and highlight the issues that are there is great because it gives us a talking point. It gives us a start to say, well, here we gathered all the facts. There is an issue here. Let's talk about it. And at least it starts a conversation and hopefully some sort of implementation going forward.

MG: What could the police do to regain your trust?

DARCY DOBSON: I don't have an answer for that sitting here in front of you today. I think that's something I will have to think on. I'm going to have to finish reading the report. And really, that's something I have to decide within myself, I think, within my family and my community. And I can't answer that and stand completely behind my answer today.

MG: Mike, this is interesting because from the beginning, the commission said it wouldn't lay blame. But if you read that report, it's scathing when it comes to police and police missteps from the very beginning until long after those 13 hours. What stands out to you about that?

MICHAEL SCOTT: I think Darcy is entirely correct that part of the frustration for all of us has been If the RCMP cannot acknowledge that something has gone wrong, how can we be expected to trust that it will get better? I mean, obviously, the very first part of making change is, you know, for everyone to have an acknowledgement that that didn't work or that this was a mistake or that this needs to change.

MG: But a lot of it is I mean, failures of what seemed to be basic policing, right?

MICHAEL SCOTT: I think it's reflected in the report, specifically the volume dealing with policing, that when you see a long list of those things that seem so obvious, there's a note in the report that says that the RCMP code of conduct should now include a provision that prohibits officers ingesting alcohol while working. Now, that would normally strike us as being something that doesn't require a multi-million dollar public inquiry for. But any time we start to see these really basic things stacked up, I'd suggest that what that points to is not a series of individual problems, but of a management and a culture problem.

MG: Part of this, to Darcy's point, is acknowledging and you've said this as well, acknowledging that mistakes were made by the force, that would go some way to starting perhaps a process of regaining trust. But what else has to be done to make sure that people like Darcy, I mean, that was incredible the way that you said that, that you would not be able to see an RCMP car go down the road past you without having a shiver.

MICHAEL SCOTT: Well, trust is earned. We've seen throughout this idea that, well, what can we say or what symbolic gesture can we make to regain your trust? And it overlooks that. If you want Darcy's trust or someone else's trust, it's earned. It's a slow, hard process. It doesn't take very long to lose that trust and it takes a long time to build it up. But there has to be some level of accountability.

MG: You may not be able to say what it would take to earn your trust back, but are you at all confident that that's going to happen at some point in time, that they the force would take the steps required to get someone like yourself onside?

DARCY DOBSON: I would like to hope that the force is open to saying, okay, we need to dismantle this and work on it from the ground up. From where I sit today, I have to say no, just because I don't think they understand the magnitude of the issue. Like it starts at the very top and just works its way all the way down to your men on the ground and women on the ground who are… If they don't have the right leadership, they cannot go out and police in communities that don't trust them.

MG: I mean, this leads into the other issue of trauma and the kind of trauma that exists in a moment like that, but also exists long after a moment, in the years following that. We spoke with a grief counsellor yesterday who talks about how trauma begets trauma in many ways and what happens if it's not addressed is that other things can unfold in the wake of a tragedy like this. There has been a lot of talk about the fact that people in your community and people like yourself perhaps didn't get the support that was required in the wake of what happened three years ago. How would you characterize that? Have you received the support that you and your community think you need?

DARCY DOBSON: I think the short answer is no. I come from a really large family that's very close, so we support each other. But Nova Scotia didn't know what it was dealing with. There wasn't anybody who had ever dealt with anything like this. So you look at the supports that they brought in, but it wasn't enough. There wasn't enough. I know I have a few sisters who struggled over getting therapy, working through victim services, taking time off work. I have one sister that worked for the Nova Scotia Health Authority for mental health and wellness who couldn't take time off work.

MG: What do you mean? Sorry. In the wake of this, she couldn't take time off work.

DARCY DOBSON: Right. Yes.

MG: Despite the fact that she works in mental health and social services.

DARCY DOBSON: Right. So like there's systematic issues that need to be fixed within the government to make sure that people who go through something like this have the support that they need.

MG: How were you treated in the wake of this?

DARCY DOBSON: I was sheltered by my community. I will say my community and the people around me and my family. I think the way we were treated by the RCMP was miserable. Like you’re taught from the time that you're a child to trust the police officer on the corner, right? Like he's the good guy. He's going to save the day. And the way that they treated us afterwards was gross, honestly. I am very grateful for my community. I'm very grateful for my family because without them, I would not have made it through this.

MG: I'm really cautious about asking about this, but you use the word gross in particular and I know there are specific things that that refers to. Do you mind talking about that?

DARCY DOBSON: I'm not going to. I'm not going to put myself in that kind of a position. I've come a long way in three years and I've worked really hard to be sitting where I am today to have this conversation with you.

MG: What does it say to you that in the wake of a tragedy like this, at this scale, that people like yourself weren't given the appropriate care, weren't given the care that not you deserve, but the care that you needed?

DARCY DOBSON: It's been nearly three years. We can't change what happened. There's no changing it. But there is this opportunity to change it for the next person. So let's take it. Let's take the opportunity. Let's look at what we did wrong. Let's take accountability for our actions and fix it for the next person that sits here. And I hope to God there never is another person that has to sit here. Let's hold ourselves accountable and do better.

MG: There's a recommendation that's in this report that a body be established to help ensure that the changes that have been recommended actually get made. And there's a group of people who have lived experience in this moment who push for that. Is that something that in this moment that you consider being part of?

DARCY DOBSON: Absolutely.

MG: Yeah.

DARCY DOBSON: Yeah.

MG: You answered the question almost before I was finished.

DARCY DOBSON: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I think that's very important. And I think this whole exercise is pointless without the implementation, right? It all looks good on paper. Looks great. But if we can't implement the recommendations that are made, like many inquiries before us, there is no implementation. Nobody actually takes the time to create the body, to have the hard conversation, to make the change. And I would absolutely sit in that body of people and have that conversation and do whatever I needed to make these changes because it's important.

MG: Mike, What will it take to make sure that this isn't as the commissioner said, another report?

MICHAEL SCOTT: The reality is it's going to take a tremendous amount of effort. It's going to take people like Darcy who will unfailingly continue to push the issue for years to come. It's going to take a great deal of political capital. The reason why we see these issues in public inquiries and the implementation part is because it's a tremendous amount of work to get it from the recommendation stage to the implementation stage.

MG: In speaking with somebody yesterday, they said that the community in some ways had its identity changed. And I just wonder what you see in your community and how do you see the community now?

DARCY DOBSON: I think that's a fair way to put it. But at the end of the day, the same people are in that community and people are what make a community. And I would like to say that my community is stronger than it's ever been because we learned to band together to go through the hard stuff. So I believe it will always be different. There will always be a before and after. I think it's as strong as it's ever been because of the people who make up my community.

MG: And so what happens now? I mean, the story of a community and the story of a family and your story, it's like a book and there's chapters in the book. And this is one of those chapters, right? But it's not the end of the book in some ways. How do you see this? Do you see this as a moment that lets you start to move in a different direction or?

DARCY DOBSON: Yeah. Absolutely. It gives you the chance to kind of branch off. I don't see this really as an end. Like it's the end of the inquiry, but it is the beginning of something big. And that's the way I would like to look at it because this is the beginning of the hard conversations. This is the beginning of let's get this implemented, let's make changes, let's make all in the name of these beautiful lives that are gone, right? So for me, this is where my work starts. And I'm really looking forward to it actually.

MG: And that thing, the memory that you wrote about your mom at the beginning of the report, there was this lovely line at the end in which she said that she believed in the good that's left in this world.

DARCY DOBSON: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

MG: What does that mean to you, having gone through what you and your family have gone through? It's hard to find good in the world sometimes.

DARCY DOBSON: It really is. The world is definitely a different place. For me, I view it differently, but I do believe in the good that's left in this world. I believe that there is a lot of good people with wonderful ideas and that bring so much good. Like there is so much good left in the world. And the second you lose sight of that, that's where the problem starts.

MG: Where do you see it? Where do you see that good?

DARCY DOBSON: I see that good in my father, my siblings, my beautiful children. I see that good all around me. The legacy that was left to me by my mother is a beautiful thing.

MG: I'm really glad to have the chance to talk to you. Today's been a really hard day, I'm sure, and a long list of hard days, but that you'd be willing to take the time to speak with us. Thank you very much.

DARCY DOBSON: Thanks for having me.

MG: And Mike, thank you.

MICHAEL SCOTT: Thank you.

MG: Darcy Dobson’s mother Heather O'Brien was killed in the rampage in Portapique in 2020. Michael Scott is her lawyer. He also represents others who lost loved ones. Your CBC News is next. And then.

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MALE SPEAKER: We recognize that this is not the first report to make findings and recommendations like these. But with all of your help, it could be the last.

MG: The Mass Casualty Commission's 130 recommendations tackle intimate partner violence, mental health funding and an overhaul of how policing works in this country. In six minutes, one of the commissioners behind that report. And we'll speak with the RCMP’s top officer in Nova Scotia on trust lost with this community. I'm Matt Galloway in Halifax and you're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

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MASS CASUALTY COMMISSION

Guests: Michael MacDonald, Dennis Daley

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, North Atlantic right whales are on the verge of extinction, but a team of researchers in Canada is trying to change that. In half an hour, how listening to the whales could help us protect them. But first, transformative change. That is what the Mass Casualty Commission is calling for. Where could and should that change start? And how could police regain trust with the community? This is a special edition of The Current from Halifax, Nova Scotia.

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MG: Six months after the shootings and after intense pressure from the victims’ families, the federal and Nova Scotia governments ordered a public inquiry into what happened in Portapique in 2020. The commission's report calls for sweeping reform to the RCMP and says that intimate partner violence needs to be treated as an epidemic in Canada.

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MICHAEL MACDONALD: For far too long, our society has misperceived mass violence as our greatest threat without considering its relationship to other more pervasive forms of violence. We do so at the expense of public safety. We do so at the expense of community well-being. We do so at our collective peril.

MG: That was Michael MacDonald, chair of the Mass Casualty Commission. And shortly after making that statement, he sat down with me. Thank you for being here.

MICHAEL MACDONALD: A pleasure. Thank you for your interest.

MG: Your report begins with the stories of the 22 people who died over those 13 hours. Now, you asked the families to share memories and share reflections of those who were lost. Why did you start the report with that?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: Why would we not? I mean, that to us was obvious. From the very beginning, speaking to my wife about accepting the role was doing right by the families of those whose lives were taken.

MG: You said something really interesting at the beginning of the presentation earlier today in which you said this is your province. And I wonder why you said that in particular.

MICHAEL MACDONALD: I felt compelled to say that because we use the metaphor in our background, the ripple effect. This has rippled from its centre throughout the entire province, throughout the country. And it impacted me. It's one of those moments where you remember what you were doing at the time. And it shook this province to its core. This is a resilient province and its resilience showed. But I just had to say that this was my province and I'm proud of my province. And I'm proud of those families who stuck together, looked after each other. And I'm proud of its citizens who stuck together and are looking after each other.

MG: In speaking with a number of the family members who have been at the centre of this, and as you said, you ground your work in the memory of the people who died. In speaking with some of the family members, a number of the family members, they were frustrated by the process itself. Frustrated not just by the results of this, but frustrated by the process of this. What would you say to those family members today?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: We had the honour to meet with the family members early on. We also met with them in the fall to discuss those very issues. And I would say to them that we did our utmost to honour the memories of the lives taken, that they will not be lost in vain. And I believe our report are to allay their concerns.

MG: We spoke with Darcy Dobson, the daughter of Heather O'Brien not so long ago. And she said that they felt in many ways ignored by the commission. And she felt that they as family members were almost like pests to the members of the commission. That’s an extraordinary way to characterize how they those family members who should have been at the centre of this felt. Why do you think they would feel that way?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: It's been a very difficult time for everybody. It's been a very difficult time for them. Nothing could be further from the truth.

MG: But they felt as though they weren't being listened to. They felt that they were excluded from this process. And I just wonder where that would come from.

MICHAEL MACDONALD: Well, they were absolutely listened to, Matt. I mean, every week, I would think, if not more frequently, we gave updates. We welcomed them to meet with them at the beginning. And at the end, they were the fulcrum of everything we did. We had them in our hearts and minds and we'll continue to do so.

MG: What does that tell you about the difficulty of a process like this?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: It's a challenge. I mean, you have to start with the premise that we were immersed in pain and suffering and heartache throughout the entire process. And I've always maintained that we are the lucky people in this equation. We could never imagine the suffering that they have gone through, but we did our very best to make sure that we not cause any more unnecessary harm.

MG: This report is scathing when it comes to the RCMP and calls for a transformation not just in how that force works, but in how policing in this country works in 2023. One of the things that you said in the release of the report was in many ways, the focus of policing should now be how we prevent further violence. What does a modern policing force look like that has a focus on preventing violence?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: We're calling actually for a transformation in community safety. So it's an important distinction to make. We're focusing on the role of policing in a broader discussion.

MG: But the RCMP is in many ways at the centre of the criticism in this report.

MICHAEL MACDONALD: Oh, there's no question. There's no question about it. But our focus is on a new way of looking at community safety, which has the policing aspect working to its strengths and in other aspects, working to people or groups with other strengths. So just for example, Eddie McCollum who testified before us, a rather senior officer, indicated that he could have so much more time to do what he's trained and equipped to do if he didn't have two mental health calls. So let's reimagine how we can make us all safer without defaulting that everything begins and ends with the police.

MG: What confidence do you have that a police force that, as you pointed in the report, refused in many ways to admit its own mistakes, refused to admit responsibility for those mistakes, that that force, that RCMP would be able to transform itself?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: They have to. They absolutely do.

MG: What do you mean they have to?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: The writing is on the wall that they have to change the culture of policing within the force. We could not make it any clearer, I think. And I think we're in a moment in history where the RCMP and policing generally, the culture has to change. There has to be clarity in what the respective roles are and now is the time. I'm actually optimistic that we will see some positive change.

MG: And if it doesn't?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: If it doesn't, it will be an insult to the lives who were taken, really. I mean, it cannot be that their lives were taken in vain. It cannot be.

MG: Much of the report also looks at the issue of intimate partner violence. And you're really clear in calling this a serious epidemic. You say that like COVID 19, this is a public health emergency that warrants a meaningful whole society response. What would you want that response to look like?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: Well, it's laid out in our report, but a number of aspects. First of all, men have to step up in leadership roles and educate, be part of that, be part of the solution. Bystander intervention is something that was stark for us. Education, resources for victims of intimate partner violence, gender based violence and domestic violence. Resources and the wherewithal to report knowing that reporting will not cause further harm. Just to name a few.

MG: In delivering your closing remarks, it appeared as though you were looking directly at the Prime Minister. And the Premier was sitting there. So the Premier of the province, the Prime Minister, the public Safety Minister were sitting in the middle of the room. And you talked about when these recommendations are implemented, not if these recommendations are implemented. And you're nodding as I'm saying that because you used that word very deliberately. Why did you say that and why did you say that looking at those who could implement these recommendations?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: Because we have developed a comprehensive blueprint to make Canadians safer in our homes and on our streets. If implemented, when implemented, will make us all safer and will make Canada a world leader. I believe in Canada. I believe in Nova Scotia. We’ll make it a world leader. The people in the room are the ones who have to champion that change.

MG: Who also perhaps don't believe that that's going to happen, though, because they've seen reports in past that have ended up, you know, collecting dust on the shelf. And I just wonder whether you believe the will is there. You also talked about courage and desire, but whether that will is there to make that change.

MICHAEL MACDONALD: I think it is. I think it is there. We were given a broad mandate. I mean, it had the foresight of having us look at more than what happened and to look at gender based violence and police paraphernalia and all those issues. So I would like to think that the governments that commissioned that mandate are interested.

MG: I know you're a busy man. I appreciate some of your time to talk further about what was released and the long road to get to this day. Thank you very much.

MICHAEL MACDONALD: Thank you.

MG: Michael MacDonald is chair of the Nova Scotia Mass Casualty Commission. And as you just heard, a major focus of that final report is overhauling every aspect of the RCMP. And that is where we are going next. Dennis Daley is the assistant commissioner and commanding officer of the Nova Scotia RCMP, and he is with us in our makeshift studio here in Truro. Thank you for being here.

DENNIS DALEY: Thank you for the opportunity.

MG: This report comes down very hard on the RCMP. Do you think it's fair?

DENNIS DALEY: I haven't had the opportunity to read the report. I do commit to reading the report in its entirety. What I heard from the commissioners as I was here earlier today is some of the shortcomings that were pointed out in the report with respect to the RCMP. You know, I do recognize today was very emotional. It was my first time here. We watched a video with all the photos of the victims. I met with some family members today. So it's a very emotional time for everybody. For the impacts of our response, I know our response wasn't what certainly the families had expected and I'm sure Nova Scotians expected. And so for that, I had expressed my, and I'm truly sorry. I expressed my sorrow earlier today.

MG: Can I go back to just what you started in saying? You haven't actually read this report?

DENNIS DALEY: No, I haven't had the opportunity to read the report. I do know that it was released yesterday. We have a team both here in Nova Scotia and in Ottawa reviewing the report. Yesterday, I spent the day with our commissioner. Our commissioner is here and spent the last two days here in Nova Scotia. Yesterday, we took him out to each of the scenes in Portapique. He wanted to pay his respects. He wanted to get an understanding of the complexity and the dynamic response required. And we also spent time with our own employees, some of the very impacted employees as well.

MG: I understand you're busy. You're the commanding officer of the Nova Scotia RCMP. You got this report. The RCMP got this report yesterday at 9:00 in the morning, I understand. One of the things we've heard from victims’ families and from survivors is that they've lost trust in the force. What does it say to them that a day after you got your hands on the report, you haven't looked at it?

DENNIS DALEY: You know, I have heard that about the trust and confidence in policing. And it is one of the number one foundational elements in policing.

MG: But more importantly, just actually, this is a momentous. People have been building to the release of this report for years now. What does it say that the leading people in the force haven't actually read this report yet?

DENNIS DALEY: Well, as you realize, it came out yesterday. It's my full expectation that I will read the report in its entirety. I've committed to Nova Scotians that we will act on each of the recommendations. However, what I’d also like to point out is that we did not wait for the Mass Casualty Commission's report to come out. We recognized areas that we needed to improve. We've made significant changes here in Nova Scotia that will benefit Nova Scotians. It'll benefit policing across the country. It will benefit the RCMP. So we did not wait for this report. I will commit not only to reading it, but willingness to continue to improve and continue to change.

MG: There are a number of things that are in the report. When you read them together in the list of things that the commissioners point to in terms of failings of the RCMP, when you read them in a string, it's I think shocking, a lot of people would say, how badly things went over the course of those 13 hours. One of the most shocking things that comes out is that police, in the words of the commissioners, did not provide advice to community members on what needed to happen to ensure that they were safe. How does something like that happen?

DENNIS DALEY: I think what happens during a dynamic event is that the information doesn't get relayed where it needs to go. And those are elements in a dynamic, fluid situation. Recognize that our first responders went into a nightmare there and did their best efforts at their own peril to respond to this. What I can tell you is that we have made improvements not only here in Nova Scotia, but across the country on the use of emergency alerting. We were used to it through Amber Alerts and weather events. But we've taken significant strides as policing has across the country to activate the emergency alerting. Here in Nova Scotia, since then, we've used it over 18 times. So we've progressed significantly, which gives that early warning to communities. I would also say that on our public communications, that follow up is so very important. So very important to me in that transparency and the accountability. So we've taken additional steps to really talk plain language with the community to warn them of what is taking place. After we issue that emergency alert, then we can either continue with an emergency alert or move to another platform.

MG: I mean, and I apologize, I’m not a policing expert, but to me, it seems almost a basic part of the job if an emergency is happening, to let the public know how they can stay safe. How do police officers fail in doing that?

DENNIS DALEY: Well, recognize I think the public expectation around emergency alerting is just that now. It's a high public… I just talked to one of the family members and we were talking about different alerts that have happened since then. We do recognize, we've learned and we do recognize the public expectation now.

MG: The report also says that police prioritized institutional imperatives over the needs of survivors and family members. How does something like that happen that the family members and the needs of those family members would be lower on the priority list than institutional needs of the force?

DENNIS DALEY: It's difficult for me without context on what exactly that recommendation speaks to. What I've earlier said about the public trust and confidence is a top priority for me. What I heard this morning from Commissioner MacDonald was that sometimes the police are asked to do things that they're not properly suited for.

MG: This is important because the families and the public have been really critical about how it felt to them. And again, this comes out in the recommendations in the report that the RCMP hasn't faced up to its mistakes, the ones that are outlined very clearly in this report. It hasn't admitted to the mistakes and it hasn't taken responsibility for the mistakes. Why would that be the case, do you think? What is it within? Again, it comes out in the culture of policing. This is something that the report refers to. What is it that's in the culture of policing that would not allow the force to acknowledge it made mistakes and own those mistakes?

DENNIS DALEY: You know, I've been a policeman for almost 35 years now. So I look at any time there's been a death where the RCMP has either responded to or been part of, I look at that as a failing. And our employees look at it as a failing. Our employees were deeply affected by this response. You know, in my tours of our detachments since I've returned to Nova Scotia, they've committed to change and they've committed to a willingness to improve their service.

MG: One of the points of culture that the report directs people toward IS looking particularly at domestic and intimate partner violence. The report says that this needs to be treated as a serious epidemic in this country, as serious as, for example, COVID, and that it should be addressed as a public health priority. This tragedy began with the assault of the perpetrator’s partner Lisa Banfield. And Lisa Banfield according to the report and the conclusions of the report was not treated by the RCMP like a victim. She was treated with less of that regard. And I just wonder what needs to change. And again, this is a culture piece. What needs to change for the RCMP to take intimate partner violence more seriously?

DENNIS DALEY: Well, I'd like to tell Nova Scotians first of all that we do take intimate partner violence very, very seriously. I'm not familiar with the notion of the public health. Policing is not the only entity involved in that. We are a significant entity within that.

MG: Part of that future vision, if I can put it that way, for policing that came out of the presentation of the report and in the report itself is this idea that the focus in many ways of policing should be how do we prevent future violence. What does that say to you?

DENNIS DALEY: Yeah. I'm very interested to read that volume, the prevention of further violence. What I can say right now is any time we can strengthen partnerships, we can strengthen work with stakeholders, we can work better with communities, because it's really a whole of a community. It takes a village to raise a child. So it's really a whole notion of working better collaboratively with all stakeholders. And police, again, as I say, have a significant part of that.

MG: The reality, though, is that three years after this, this awful tragedy, there are many people in this community that just don't trust the RCMP. We spoke with Darcy Dobson. She is the daughter of Heather O'Brien who was killed in those 13 hours. She said that there will never be a time when she sees a police car that a shiver doesn't go down her spine. What does that say to you?

DENNIS DALEY: You know, it is disappointing. And I heard that myself this afternoon from one of the family members. It's not something that I want to hear because, you know, policing, we're here to serve. We're here to assist.

MG: But the people don't trust you. The people who are in this community don't trust you.

DENNIS DALEY: I do recognize the need to rebuild those relationships. What I'm hoping is that they do see us taking the report serious. They do see us changing. They do see us evolving and even implementing changes before the report came out. I today have met with four people that were involved. And the hope I had when I sent the letters to the family members is that I could meet directly with them and have a conversation such as this as a step towards rebuilding those relationships and that confidence.

MG: Why should they trust the RCMP?

DENNIS DALEY: I think they should trust the RCMP because we are willing to learn and change and adapt. We need people to have confidence in us.

MG: You're advertising for police officers in movie theatres here in Nova Scotia. There's an ad that runs before, you know, the feature film where you're trying to get people to enlist and sign up in the force. In the wake of a report like this, who's going to want to become an RCMP officer, do you think? It's a scathing report about the force and what the force did and didn't do and how a community was left reeling for years after this incident. Why would somebody want to be an officer, do you think?

DENNIS DALEY: That's a good question. And it's something that no doubt not only this report, I'm not sure if the report uses the terms that you have referred to. However, policing across Canada, policing across North America, policing in Europe has taken a significant reputational hit in the last several years. Some of it deserved, perhaps some of it not deserved. That has an impact certainly on the wellness of employees working today, the willingness to stay in, the willingness to continue to face, and I might add, the significant violence that we're seeing. When I came back here in Nova Scotia, this is my third time in Nova Scotia, I was dumbfounded about the level of violence that our members are facing in today's world.

MG: Well, I don't think anybody would doubt that the members who were there in Portapique that night and the following day, they have been traumatized through this as well. Obviously, they've been through a lot as well.

DENNIS DALEY: Yes. And thank you for recognizing that because they have been impacted and continue to be impacted. Back to the recruiting aspect. Policing across North America is seeing an impact on recruiting.

MG: What will show people in this community that things are different, that things would be different the next time if, God forbid, there was a similar tragedy here? What would show them that things would be different?

DENNIS DALEY: I think a couple of things would show them. I think they've already seen with emergency alerting that things are different. In Nova Scotia since April of 2020, we've had 18 such alerts. So I think they've seen the difference. They've seen us adjusting to the new reality. I think by doing interviews such as this where I'm willing to come before interviews to talk about the RCMP, talk about policing, I think that increases the transparency.

MG: It's important to have you here to talk about this. The RCMP has a key role in this. Having not read the report, would you come back and talk to us after you've read it to talk more about some of those recommendations and what the force may do to try to implement them?

DENNIS DALEY: I am willing to come back and talk to you at any point about any issue in policing. So I would appreciate that opportunity.

MG: That would be great. In the meantime, thank you very much for this.

DENNIS DALEY: Thank you.

MG: Assistant Commissioner Dennis Daley is the commanding officer for the Nova Scotia RCMP. He was speaking with me in Truro, Nova Scotia. Well, coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: There's a lot of people working on this problem. It's unprecedented efforts. Like you don't see this kind of effort in this kind of work anywhere else in the world for any other species.

MG: We're here in Halifax at the edge of the Atlantic Ocean. And in 90 seconds, how listening to the calls of right whales could be key in protecting this near extinct species. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in just a minute. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

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RIGHT WHALES

Guest: Delphine Durette-Morin

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current from Halifax.

SOUNDCLIP

[right whale calls]

MG: What is that? That, it turns out, is a very rare sound. It is the call of the North Atlantic right whale. These whales are one of the most endangered mammals on the planet. Scientists believe there are only about 340 right whales still alive. Many of them spend their time off the coast of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia or in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Delphine Durette-Morin is a researcher hoping to better protect the species. And to do that, she is using sound recordings like the one we just heard of the whales as they travel. She's here in Halifax. Delphine, good morning.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Hi. Good morning.

MG: I want to talk about what you're doing and how and why you're doing it. But can you just talk about the whales first? And I ask this as somebody who this is, you know, what you do for a living, but there is something magical and wonders about seeing whales. And I just wonder what the first time was like for you when you saw a North Atlantic right whale. Do you remember that?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: I do. Yeah. The first time I saw a right whale was on a plane on an aerial survey in 2015 when we were first exploring the Gulf of St. Lawrence with the NOA team. And I was very new. I had only seen, you know, humpbacks and the more generic whale, even though they're all important. And sure enough, we went out there and we saw a right whale. And at first, my eyes had to adjust because right whales are a bit different looking. They're a bit bulkier and they have these callosities on their heads that kind of tricks your brain when you first see them. And yeah, I had the stereotypical shivers and just being in awe of just seeing how big the animal was. I had the opportunity to see it from the air. So I just got to appreciate how big of an animal it really is.

MG: How big is it?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: That is a good question there. I would say between 40 and 60 feet big.

MG: Big enough that you a whale researcher would say that it's a big animal.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Yeah, it's big. Usually, when we're on vessels, we're sometimes on crab vessels. So they are 60 feet vessels. And they'll come up next to us and they make up a good portion of the length of the boat. And so you get a good appreciation for how big they are. Even when you see little calves, you know, they're the size of a minke whale. They're between 15 and 20 feet. I mean, that's a baby, which is insane that they're so large.

MG: You said you got the stereotypical shivers.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Yeah. I think that's the stereotypical, just the awe and amazement of like, wow, this is, you know, an amazing giant of the ocean that you don't necessarily get to see what they see. You know, we get to witness a portion of their life when they're at the surface. So they're very mysterious and mystical beings in my head.

MG: Why are there so few of them?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Unfortunately, the whales were targeted for whale hunting and right whales were the right whales to kill. So that's how they got their name there. They float easily and they're very coastal. And so they were the easy targets for whalers. And they were heavily hunted from, you know, very early on. The earliest record I think are from the Basque whale hunting. And that continued on and that really devastated that population. It also devastated other whale populations. But this population specifically was the first one that was targeted because it was such an easy target.

MG: That's where the name comes from? They’re the right whale to kill.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Yeah. They were the right whale to kill, which isn’t the best way of remembering them. But unfortunately, that is how they got their name.

MG: So when I said there's 340 whales still alive, is that a static number? Is that number declining? Is it increasing?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Unfortunately, it's been decreasing. And that is a modelled number. So the number is based on the North Atlantic right whale catalogue from the consortium that's held by the New England Aquarium. And the right whale is a really interesting species because we can identify them with the patterns of callosity on their heads. They're like fingerprints. You get to be able to identify them on the individual basis. And because it's been so extensively studied for so many years, we get to have the opportunity to know, okay, which are the individuals that make up the population and how often are they photographed. And, you know, once a whale either is deceased or it hasn't been re-sighted in nine, 10 years, then it's potentially a deceased whale. And with that fluctuation from year to year, we get to insert that into statistical models that give us a likely population sized number.

MG: You're talking about the callosities, identifying them.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Yeah.

MG: I'm just looking at a picture of that. Just explain what that is for people who don't know.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Sure. So there are rugged patches of skin on there. They're almost like rocks on top of their rostrum, which is the top of their heads. And if we go more into details, they actually have these little Siamese , which are little crustaceans or like mini crabs, let's say, And they're white and they live on this rugged part of skin that is on top of their heads. And from a boat or from a plane because of the rugged patches on the different individual whales will have different shapes. So sometimes they'll have a continuous shape from the top of the head to the tip of the head. And sometimes they'll have broken shapes or little islands. And that will help us with the use of photo identification. So when we take a good photo from different angles, you're able to draw the heads of these whales. And because each whale has a different pattern on their head, you can identify the individual.

MG: That is so interesting.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Yeah. It's a big component of the science, what science is possible to perform and the different analysis in the species. For example, because we can identify the different individuals, we can track. When I say we, I mean the royal we. There's a lot of people working on these problems. But scientists can identify progression of scarring, which gives us information on whether the whale has been entangled before or not and so on and so forth. So we get to track these life histories on an individual basis, which can provide a lot of very interesting and compelling data for numerous things, including conservation.

MG: You mentioned the numbers are declining. What's the biggest threat that they face now?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: The two biggest threats unfortunately are human caused. Its entanglements in fishing gear and ship strikes.

MG: And so in somewhere like the Gulf of St. Lawrence, which is a pretty busy patch of water or can be, what are the regulations that are in place to protect them?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: There's two different categories of regulations in the Gulf of St. Lawrence right now since 2017, which was onset by the unprecedented mortality crisis in those waters when we found at least 12 dead right whales that year. So the two categories are fishing management and then shipping management. With fishing, there's regulations where when a right whale is cited in an area, the fishing area grids are closed for 15 days after the right whale is cited. So fishermen have to go and extract their fishing gear and leave it out of the water in those areas for the 15 days. That's the gist of it. And then the regulations on the shipping side of things is very similar. There are some areas in the Gulf, especially near and around Shediac Valley, which is a bit east of Bay Tischler. It's where a lot of the whales have been sighted and have been aggregating. And there's a static area where ships have to slow down. And so they can't go higher than eight or 10 knots. And in the shipping lanes, because in the Gulf, the Gulf is actually a huge area.

MG: Yeah.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: It's a really big body of water, but it includes shipping lanes, really important shipping lanes that, you know, fuel a lot of shipping into the middle of the country. And in these shipping lanes, they're divided into two sections. There's a section that has mandatory slowdown measures. So when a whale is detected either visually or acoustically, we can talk about that more in a bit. But when a whale is detected, the vessels have to go a certain speed, which reduces the likelihood of a lethal strike if they hit a whale or it gives them a higher chance of sighting a whale. So then they can, you know, go a different direction. The other section in the Gulf is the Cabot Strait. And the Cabot Strait is a voluntary slow down measure in the spring and then in the fall.

MG: And again, as you've been saying, part of this is knowing where the whales are. And so there's visual identification flying in the plane or what have you, seeing them from the water. But then there is a way of identifying where they are through the sounds that they make. And you use sound recordings to try to help us better understand where those whales might be. I want to play some of this because it's radio and people can listen to it as well.

SOUNDCLIP

[right whale calls]

MG: The hair on my arms kind of stood up. What is that?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: That's a North Atlantic right whale. Some up calls, which are very important calls for the detection of the species, especially with respect to protection measures. The up calls are produced by all sex classes, all age classes, and it's used like a contact call just to communicate with their buddies.

SOUNDCLIP

[right whale calls fade up]

MG: Okay, Let me play something else.

SOUNDCLIP

[humpback whale calls]

MG: What's that?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: That sounds like what could be a humpback up sweeps.

SOUNDCLIP

[humpback whale calls fade up]

MG: It’s like stump the band here where I'm kind of just playing things and then asking you what the song is, but you actually know what that is.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: It's like the trial. It's like I'm on my defence, my masters defense or something. I wish they had quizzed me on that. That would have been fun. So humpbacks are an example of a species that can be problematic for the identification or the detection of right whales because they do have an overlapping sound repertoire. And what that means is they produce sounds that can be similar to what other species characteristically produce. And one thing that we do to counteract that problem is humpbacks often will produce songs. That's what they're known for, right?

SOUNDCLIP

[musical humpback whale calls]

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: These sounds, if you can notice that there's a pattern, then hands down, you're like, nope, that's not a right whale, that's a humpback. So you're safe. You're clear. You know, you mark that as a humpback and not a right whale. And so it's a lot of different things that you have to put in consideration when you're analyzing these acoustic recordings to make sure that you're identifying the species correctly.

SOUNDCLIP

[musical humpback whale calls fade up]

MG: That's just incredible. You listen to that. It sounds like they're talking to each other. I want to play one more thing. These are right whales again, but they make sounds other than what we heard earlier.

SOUNDCLIP

[right whale scream calls]

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Sounds like screams, which are thought to be produced by female right whales.

SOUNDCLIP

[gunshots]

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: And gunshot, which are a crazy sound that these whales produce.

MG: So that was actually a whale sound, not an actual gunshot?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: No. Yeah, that was the little. It's actually much louder normally. Like when I listen to acoustics, I have to be careful to not press play when my speakers or my headphones are on full volume because the up call is just so loud. It's a broadband sound in all frequencies.

SOUNDCLIP

[right whale calls]

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: But right whales produce these gunshots that are what are called gunshots. And they're thought to be produced by males during reproductive behaviours or competitive behaviours. But one thing that's really cool about that gunshot actually is that when you observe the whales, there's an interesting thing that happens when they're producing, when we think they're producing gunshots. They'll kind of reverberate. We call it jello. Like they look like they're made of jello. Like you can see the waves going through their blubber, which is so wild to see. It's really cool. Yeah. So that's the gunshot.

MG: That sounds amazing.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Yeah, it is. It's really neat to see. And we don't see that that often. You have to pay really close attention to be able to notice that. And you have to be on a vessel and be close to the whale, of course. But yeah, it's a pretty special thing to see.

MG: So if you listen to what we have been hearing and the sounds that you're analyzing, how can that and that data that has been collected and analyzed better protect these whales in those areas where they may be vulnerable?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Mm hmm. There's kind of two parts to that question. The first is having an idea of the distribution of an animal is really important, especially to know where this distribution might overlap with potential threats. And gathering that data over a large area is really challenging because of limited resources. You know, you can't have eyes on the water everywhere all the time. Also Atlantic, the Atlantic water, you know, Canada isn't well known for consistent wonderful weather. And so it's really challenging to acquire that large amount of data. And a nice thing about acoustics is that we can have a recorder underwater continuously recording, continuously listening. And we can slowly accumulate that data so that we have this big picture, which is really important, especially to then measure if later, if in future years, you know, we talk a lot about climate change and how it affects the ecosystems and that can have, you know, bottom up or cascade down effects on the ecosystems and predators and things like that. And it shifts their distribution because they want to follow their food. If in the future these shifts continue to happen, having a broad scale idea of species distribution is really important to then be able to compare and be like, oh yes, there has been a shift in this distribution. The whales are now in a different water that may not be protected. So this broad scale data that these acoustic recorders can provide is really important. The other aspect is a more dynamic aspect. There's technology that allows us to communicate these detections in real time or near real time. And so you can have a recorder or hydrophone. It's an underwater microphone on things like underwater gliders. So there are autonomous vehicles that can profile or navigate the water continuously. And every time they go back to the surface, they have onboard computers and auto detectors that can ping us back the data and be like, hey, you know what? The likelihood of a right whale being detected here with the sounds that I just heard is pretty likely. And so I think there's a right whale here. And of course, this data is all validated and things like that with following protocols. But this is really important to protect or restrict human activities or lessen human activity risk in areas where the whales currently are in an active manner.

MG: As you said, I mean, St. Lawrence in particular is an important passage into the heart of the country. There are commercial interests that are at play on those waters. Do you have support, do you think, from those commercial shipping companies to modulate their behaviour to better protect these whales?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: I think there has been unprecedented efforts in Canada thus far and it's been really great to see. I think there's still a lot of work that can be done. And we work hard to educate and to provide stewardship or increased stewardship for these whales in these areas. The problem is there is a lot of turnover in the operators that use these waters. And so we continuously have to educate new operators because they may not have been the ones using the waters the week or the month before. And so it's a continuous effort that has to happen. So there's still a lot of work to be done. But yeah, like you mentioned, these shipping lanes are really important. And then you have the Cabot Strait. That's actually basically a bottleneck for right whales and other whales and then large ships because it's the only way in and out of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. So it's really important to manage these areas correctly and effectively, especially since the whales could be really difficult to detect in areas like that when they're travelling.

MG: And if we don't? I mean, what is the talent? With 340 whales, extinction seems like a real possibility.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: It is, unfortunately, yeah. We remain hopeful. But the facts are that, you know, the population is really low. And of those 340 individuals, there's about 70 to 100 reproductive females. And so those 70 females at the mortality or the human induced mortality rates that we've seen in the last five years, if we continue that way, then within 20 to 30 years, the population would be at least functionally extinct. So that means there's no reproductive females in the population and we wouldn't be able to see a population growth. So yeah, in that sense, that's the reality of it and the facts. But, you know, there's a lot of people working on this problem. And like I said, it's unprecedented efforts. Like you don't see this kind of effort in this kind of work anywhere else in the world for any other species. And so it's really encouraging to see. And the operators and the fishing industry, the shipping industry and the fishing industry, they don't want to harm the whales. They don't want that public image or just that abuse of the ocean either. And so we're working really hard to try to find solutions or evidence based solutions with these industries so that we could better mitigate and protect the whales.

MG: This is fascinating work and I'm really, really glad to have the chance to talk to you about it. Delphine, thank you very much.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Thanks for having me.

MG: Were you always just going to go into this industry, by the way, given your name? I mean, people have names for all sorts and Delphine is like dolphin. So was it inevitable that you'd be doing this work?

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Yeah. I guess it was a pre prescribed fate for me, which I'm more than happy to fulfil.

MG: Delightful.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Yeah.

MG: Thanks again.

DELPHINE DURETTE-MORIN: Thank you so much.

MG: Delphine Durette-Morin is an assistant scientist with the Canadian Whale Institute, and she's based here in Halifax. That's The Current for this Friday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. We have been here in Nova Scotia these past few days. We want to thank our colleagues here and the community in Nova Scotia for welcoming us. It has been a really difficult week for a lot of people in this province. We're going to leave you this morning with a little bit of music from a favourite from Nova Scotia. This is Jenn Grant and Keep a Light On. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and have a great weekend.

[Song: “Keep a Light On” by Jenn Grant]

[Music: Theme]

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Friday March 31, 2023 Episode Transcript

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