Anastasia: Everybody knows that E-sports are big business.

Games make billions. E-Tournament audiences run to hundreds of millions.

So if video gamers command salaries like other professional athletes, it makes sense their training, coaching, and nutrition regimen is up there too.

Meet Konrad Wasiela. The CFL cornerback stepped away from a traditional pro sports career to join a new one in the world of E-games.

If you ever doubted the legitimacy of E-athletes, this is going to be a bit of a wake up call.

[music]

It's Player's Own voice.

I'm Anastasia Bucsis

Konrad, buddy, thanks so much for taking the time. First and foremost, I got to admit I'm a big Calgary Stampeders fan and you never played for the Stamps, but I don't hold that against you. But we're talking about esports and the intersection between, let's call em traditional athletes and Esport athletes. I do believe esports are just as difficult as traditional sports. So maybe let's start with training regimes like how does an Esport, a professional Esport athlete train for their for their game, for their discipline?

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah, I think I could speak on it openly because I was a former pro athlete and then I see what these guys are doing and it's almost identical. It's fascinating. I was really surprised when you go into an Esports facility, training facility, they have nutritionists, they have trainers. You know, they're looking at data science to back up their efforts, which is, you know, the opposite of what everyone thinks. Everyone always thinks, you know, it's some kids in a basement at their parents house playing. It's not. I mean, these guys are fighting for tens of millions of dollars in tournaments.

And the professionalism has shifted towards the highest level of competition. And what does that come with? Like I said, just like traditional sports, they got everything, training, facilities, coaches, the whole nine yards.

Anastasia: Dietician? What does that look like? Like what's the best meal to Yeah, it's like peanut butter, banana sandwich? That's what I would eat before a race.

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah, I think it's just so, like, cognitively challenging. I think they just want to keep them as healthy as possible, keep them in the gym, get them away from screen time so when they're actually on the screen that it's the highest level. And I think just that kind of full of 360 approach, that they're just covering all their bases.

Anastasia: That's so fascinating that you say off of the screen because I think back to Vancouver 2010, Call of Duty was like the hardest thing. And a bunch of my team-mates who played Call of Duty like religiously, were told Don't play during the Olympics because the screen time can get your neurological system like fired up. So I guess the cognitive aspect, what does that look like with the preparation, with a with a sports psych I guess.

Konrad Wasiela: Once again, great point. I mean, as a former athlete, you're hitting on all these points because once again, similar thing that a sports psychologist, even to help them, they're mitigating time on the screen because it's so taxing. And, you know, neurologically they're just elevated. And when they're playing at that high level, I think it's potentially in some cases even more than traditional sport. There's just so much information being processed that they need to have a step back, speak to someone about it. And when you're not, when you don't see it firsthand, it sounds silly, but when you sit down and just look at it from a broader perspective, it makes a lot of sense.

Anastasia: Maybe that's my problem with Mario cart? I mean, to take a step back, I'm bad at 150 cc.

No, So I think of like a hockey player. Okay, I don't know. Let's pick on Auston Matthews. I don't know. I'm going to assume he's pretty good at golf or that he can throw a baseball. pretty quick. Is that the same for ESport athletes? Like, if you're really good at FIFA, are you good at Grand Theft Auto?

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah, the correlation is actually not there. It's not that transferable. I mean, you would be good, but to be great, they're putting in the hours, they're putting in the time and they have a specific skill set for that specific game. Um, I don't know. Auston Matthews But Elias Pettersson loves the game. He's a good friend. So, yeah, I mean, you see this younger generation, a lot of these pro athletes are big gamers, too, and he's actually a good gamer.

Anastasia: So pierce lepage, of course, decorated decathlete has been on this podcast, Tokyo Olympian. And he said, oh, he's a big Final Fantasy guy. And he said, Are you kidding? Like, decathlon is easy. Video games are way harder. For you? Were you better at football? Or are you now seeing some transferable skills where you're like, Well, I'm going to be better at sports?

Konrad Wasiela: Oh, no, I'm definitely a better football player.

Anastasia: Are you getting better at esports?

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time now, but we still play a lot. When we were playing in our offseasons, I mean, it was huge. Even back then. We just didn't have the social media and people didn't see the, you know, how entrenched it is, to current pro athletes playing. But you see the young guys now, you know, Kyler Murray, you know, LeBron's son, he just signed with Faze Clan, like, it's huge, right? It's, everyone's gaming. It's part of their culture now. It's kind of like the new music or the new kind of cool entertainment.

Anastasia: Yeah. So I mean, I mentioned Grand Theft Auto. You can be a law abiding citizen and be good at that game. I mean, are there transferable skills to being good at, let's say, FIFA and how you actually play footy in real life?

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah, this is the intrigue for me in general. Like, you know, we briefly mentioned like the F1 application, right? Formula One drivers are on simulators practising. What I'm excited to see is: when are we going to start using some new applications from the gaming world into real traditional sport? And does that transfer over? And I think over time, as technology advances, it will.

Anastasia: So like an F1 simulator, I mean, I immediately picture, you know, just an arcade where you're sitting down in one of those seats driving like this. Like what? What actually goes into a simulator of that magnitude?

Konrad Wasiela: Oh, yeah. It's completely next level, like it's motion systems. It's literally scanning the track, the balance, the timing, like they could basically mimic one for one, now how it would be on the track. So instead of spending all that money of going on the track, they're sitting in these professional SIM rigs that cost up to millions of dollars with all the technology, all the data, all the cloud data continually loading onto the car and they're practising. So you could do thousands of laps on these really tight corners or tricky parts of the course and get all that training in without even stepping in the vehicle. And then you go in the car and they can tune the car based on this simulation. So that's where the application is very integral to all the F1 racers.

Anastasia: Yeah. So they're all doing this.

Konrad Wasiela: Oh, they're all doing it and they're spending millions and millions on it.

Anastasia: So that's interesting because when I think of Esports, I think of truly one just playing FIFA 22. I guess it's 2023. I just say the right word. Right, right. Year. But yeah, the AI element relating back to traditional sports is very fascinating and kind of it's exciting but kind of scary too. Maybe it's just exciting to you?

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah. It excites me because I would love. I mean, that technology now, like when you implement that into real sports from a perspective of, you know, studying film, when you're when I was playing football, that's all we did is study film and we'd have phenomenal coaches like Wally Bono has 50 years of experience, would walk in the room and say, Hey, you know, take two steps to the left. It's going to help you in the next game. And it actually does. But imagine adding technology to that, being able to view more and more plays and then every morning get a report saying you need to be three steps to the left. You need to be in this position. It just turns it into more of a chess match.

Anastasia: I know that there have definitely been huge advancements in speed skating as well. Right? Like I've been retired for five years and now I'm looking at what athletes are skating at 18 years old and it blows my hair back. It's so links back to the technology that we're using right now. How many people will go and watch like an esport tournament? Throw out a number?

Konrad Wasiela: Well, online, we're talking millions, hundreds of millions. It's now surpassed events like the Super Bowl. You know, you go into stadiums, we're talking sold out stadiums, 60, 80,000 seats, stadiums. But now because of streaming like Twitch and all these different channels, like I said, they're surpassing traditional sports like the Super Bowl. You know, I saw statistics that, you know, the viewership has exceeded CNN and all of these big traditional, you know, networks. I mean, it's unbelievable.

Anastasia: Is there overlap between, you know, maybe a Raptors fan and A an NBA2k devotee?

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah, it's really interesting. During COVID, NBA2K launched its league and the Phoenix Suns had more viewers live,you know, with digital on Twitch, they're out performing what they would get during a traditional game.

It is incredible. So obviously those are the same fans, the younger generation. So now these big sports franchises are going, wait a minute, we've got to really tap into this gaming so we don't lose them in the future. Yeah.

[music]

Anastasia: Okay. Let's get to your story. So obviously: formidable career in the CFL. Cornerback for a few teams again, not the Stampeders, but we're not bringing that up. What was your transition like and how did this speak to you? Like, how did you go from playing Gridiron to Esports?

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah, I think it's an interesting story. As a kid growing up, we were always conscious of gaming and it was cool. Something cool to do in the offseason. On our downtime because you were training so hard, so you just kind of be very competitive with our friends, getting the arguments every offseason, but. You know, when I saw it really coming on is when I went to a live event and I saw that stadium was sold out, 60 plus thousand.

I was going, wait a minute. This is exactly like I didn't get that feeling since traditional sports. So that's when I had to really investigate what was going on. And you started going down the line and you say, wait, Twitch is coming on, you know. Amazon acquired Twitch at that particular moment for $1,000,000,000. And I was going, okay, this is a much bigger opportunity than I thought. And the further I dove into it, the bigger the opportunity. And that's kind of the inception of the company, ESEgaming.com I remember walking up to the stadium, billboards with the esports players on it. You know, I think Intel did 100 million sponsorship for that event. You know, Puma and Nike. I'm going: Did I miss something here? Right. I really dove into that. That was the light bulb moment that we went back and he said, we got to figure this out and be a part of this in some way. And then we obviously found our niche and we started the company.

Anastasia: Okay, so can you explain ese entertainment to me? But just like, pretend that I am your grandmother?

Konrad Wasiela: So we created a tagline to simplify it for all our investors and shareholders. "we make your game a success"

So what we do is we acquire new users and players and bring them on to existing platforms and when new video games launch, we drive eyeballs and new players to those new games. And in addition to that, we also have an ecosystem around Esports where we host, broadcast, and create content for Esports leagues and teams.

Anastasia: Wow. So what does the Canadian landscape look like? Are we, you know, competitive with the United States and other countries in Asia? What does it look like in our own borders?

Konrad Wasiela: It's very popular in Canada, just like a lot of things, but we're just a smaller country as it pertains to population. So Toronto is a hotbed. Montreal is a hotbed for gaming specifically like the big game developers. A lot of them are based out of Montreal, but we just don't have the population. So you don't see those, you know, astronomical numbers. But from a popularity standpoint, it's similar to the US or Europe. It's just we don't have that that huge scale that Europe or the U.S. has.

Anastasia: What's like the most popular game right now?

Konrad Wasiela: It's always going back and forth. But, you know, League of Legends always has those huge prize pools. DOTA, (Defence of the Ancients) those are typically kind of those big prize pool games that create a ton of, you know, it's turned it into a phenomenon, right? When you see someone winning 20 million bucks in a tournament.

Anastasia: And so is that really kind of the Asterisk as to what draws people to watch video games? Because I think I think if I were to say to my mom, hey, there's a lot of people that watch someone else play a video game, she would go, what is going on in the world?

Konrad Wasiela: I always say this. I'm not calling anybody old, but whenever I talk to someone over the age of 40, I ask a very simple question. You know, did you watch a Super Bowl? Everyone puts their hand up. I said, How long did you watch it for? They say about three or four hours. That's what the younger generations are doing. But they just like video games more. It's more interactive. They get to socialise, they listen to music, they're on their discord and they're playing at the same time.

So it's kind of like the 2.0 version of… It's the future of entertainment, right? I think that's the best way to look at it. And we always have to take a step back and look at what we do and don't kind of judge them. They just like something different.

Anastasia: Yeah. So where does TV traditional when you say it's the future of entertainment, where does traditional broadcast you know, you think linear television. How does that relate to what you're doing now?

Konrad Wasiela: It's actually really interesting. We have a partnership with one of the largest media conglomerates in Europe called PolSat, and we actually play all our Esports leagues on their linear channel. And they do 25 plus million views annually. So it does really well for them. They're very progressive and they started putting it onto traditional linear channels and it's worked for them. And you see it locally here too, on TSN, on ESPN, it's starting to catch on quite a bit. But I think, you know, Twitch and YouTube are obviously the frontrunners.

Anastasia: So when you go back to your playing days, what behaviours or what lessons have you brought from the CFL to this new venture?

Konrad Wasiela: I think the number one thing is. Not to say that I'm old, but I'm trying to...

Anastasia: You're not old!

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah, I'm trying to teach the younger guys all about professionalism and treat it like a job, because the opportunities are tremendous. You know, there's. It's not just about e-sports. I mean, the amount of people you can meet, the sponsorships. You could play for five, ten years. You could turn it into a career. And I think because generally speaking, there are a lot younger, it's really nice to teach them that I've done something very similar and there's a huge opportunity here. And even though it's tough, listen to guys that have done it before. I think that's the biggest lesson to learn.

Anastasia: What's the traditional like trajectory of an Esport athlete's career? You said 5 to 10 years. Is it is it neurological fatigue or… I think passion runs out. I don't know.

Konrad Wasiela: I think that's even long, like from a competitive standpoint, that's even a long career, there's just so much turnover because the volume is higher. So if you get to play five years, I mean, it's really lucky. Similarly to traditional sports, right? I saw a statistic that average NFL player is three years. So, you know, depending on the game, some guys could play longer but.

Anastasia: Have I missed my shot? I'm 33.

Konrad Wasiela: I think that's the cool thing. I think you could do it at any age. But it seems like, uh, that sweet spot of, you know, 18 to 25 is kind of...

Anastasia: All right. Shoot. Yeah, I didn't need that news. I'm going to have a terrible Wednesday. And It's Tuesday!

So let's say five years ago. I don't know how open I would be to having this conversation. I'll be super honest out of, hopefully respect, because I thought come on. like Esports?? You know, I just had that attitude or outlook.

And now seeing what folks are doing, I mean, to your point, $100 million in sponsorship and the training is just. It is wild and it's exciting to see kind of where the future goes.

Konrad Wasiela: Yeah. I think for me, educating myself and being entrenched in it and seeing those applications and what it could potentially do in like football and sports that I truly love? I mean it's, it's like you just get giddy like, oh my gosh, this could be that 2.0 version coming in the future. So I just think it's fascinating.

Anastasia: Should we go play some Madden?

Konrad Wasiela: Let's do it.

Anastasia: Boom. Thanks, buddy.

Konrad Wasiela: Awesome.

Anastasia: Konrad Wasiela was in town from Vancouver, and we connected in the digital studio here in Toronto.

Players Own Voice podcast is a cbc sports production.

Shout out to professor Ted Snell for his E-sports insights. I am @Anastasure….we're at Hashtag players own voice....

Olivia Pasquarelli edits our audio. Thank you Baby O

Adam Blinov wrote our theme music.

David Giddens is our producer.

Thanks for listening. Pardon my voice. I just came off a weekend of world champion speedskating and the ole pipes are a bit rusty!