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The Current Transcript for January 17, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

We're going to be creative and take the best ideas from around the world, from around our own country. Look at B.C., look at Alberta, look at Quebec. They're delivering it a little differently and they're being successful.

MATT GALLOWAY: More than 200,000 people are waiting for surgery in Ontario. In the face of long wait times, the province has announced a plan to permanently move up to 50% of those surgeries to privately run clinics. Premier Doug Ford says this will free up space in hospitals for more urgent procedures. Critics aren't convinced, saying the move will drain staff from public facilities and is the first step toward a two tiered health care system with little oversight. In 30 minutes, how one province is rethinking the model of public health care and why others are watching closely. Also this morning, did you take up a new habit during the pandemic? Bread baking, kombucha making, how about pinball?

SOUNDCLIP

The trick is you have to get it in the lit saucer at the top when you plunge the ball.

[pinball machine sound]

[laughing]

MG: In the era of virtual reality, pinball is having a moment. In an hour, the appeal and fierce competition of an old school arcade game. We begin, though, with former finance minister Bill Morneau and a new book on his rocky relationship with the prime minister, and the big challenges facing Canada. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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BILL MORNEAU

Guest: Bill Morneau

SOUNDCLIP

BILL MORNEAU: As we move to the next phase of our fight against the pandemic and pave the road towards economic recovery, we must recognize that this process will take many years. It's the right time for a new finance minister to deliver on that plan for the long and challenging road ahead.

MG: That's Bill Morneau in 2020, announcing he was resigning as Canada's finance minister. He served in one of the most crucial positions in the Cabinet as this country and the rest of the world faced a new virus that brought with it a health and economic catastrophe. Bill Morneau’s book, Where to From Here: A Path to Canadian Prosperity, is out today. And Bill Morneau joins me in our Toronto studio. Bill Morneau, good morning.

BILL MORNEAU: Good morning and thanks for having me in this morning.

MG: It’s good to have you here. I'm going to get to your relationship with the prime minister in a moment. But when was the last time you spoke with Justin Trudeau?

BILL MORNEAU: The last time I spoke to him, certainly more than a year ago. We haven't been in regular day contact, that's for sure.

MG: How would you describe your relationship with him during the five years that you were the finance minister?

BILL MORNEAU: We had a respectful and cordial relationship. We worked together. There was always tension as there should be between a finance minister and prime minister. But he was always respectful to me and I certainly was always respectful to him.

MG: How would you describe that tension? You say that there always should be that kind of tension. Tell me more about that.

BILL MORNEAU: I think it's important that there's a healthy tension between a finance minister and a prime minister. It's really critical that the finance minister is looking carefully at long term financial implications of policies. The pressures on the Prime Minister are obviously intense. Day to day, the 24/7 news cycle, and he or she has to deal with that. So the finance minister has to think about those long term challenges.

MG: You say in the book that he has a lack of focus on policy details. What does that mean?

BILL MORNEAU: What I try to outline is a fundamental challenge that we face in today's world. The 24/7 news cycle, social media, they drive this government. But I think more broadly, they drive governments to deal with these things on a very rapid cycle. The challenge is to try to think about what the long term implications of policy are. That 24/7 news cycle takes your eye off the ball, takes the focus away from the things that can have the biggest long term difference.

MG: But that's not just about the government. You’re specifically talking about Justin Trudeau. You say he has a lack of focus on policy details, that he floats above the issues he confronts. What does that mean?

BILL MORNEAU: Well, I do specifically say that and outlined the fact that in my estimation, he was an excellent communicator. He brought an amount of energy and a compassion to government in 2015. But his focus was very much on that communications, that day to day communications. And that meant that the time that he was spending was there and not necessarily on those longer term challenges, things that consumed me about how we were going to be successful in long term.

MG: So you talk about this specifically when it comes to the pandemic, and you say that major decisions, some major decisions are made on the priorities of the political cycle, not on the priorities of the country. You talk about the amount, for example, distributed by CERB, that the $500 a week or $2000 a month was chosen, those numbers, because they sounded good.

BILL MORNEAU: We actually were very aligned in the early days of the pandemic. We knew we needed to massively support people. People were finding themselves without enough money for rent, for groceries. So the challenge is not whether we were aligned, but the challenge is in trying to get the details right. So over time, during the pandemic, we became less aligned. I was working with the finance department to try and taper those benefits and make sure that they were right as we were hopefully eventually coming out of the pandemic.

MG: But I would say, I mean, you use stronger language in the book than you're using right now. And I think it's fair to say that you're pulling back a little bit from some of the stronger language. You say in some ways, the calculations from your office were discarded in favour of winning a popularity contest. That's a pretty pointed swipe at how the government was operating. What do you mean that your calculations, particularly when it came to pandemic relief, were discarded in favour of a popularity contest?

BILL MORNEAU: What I’m identifying there is that the tension, that natural tension between a finance minister and a Prime minister became heightened in a period of intense stress. We were trying to get the calibration of those benefits as correct as we possibly could. To be fair to the Prime Minister and his team, they were looking at ensuring that the confidence of Canadians was there in a time where people were trying to figure out how to survive an enormous challenge. So a big difference of opinion, Yes, in terms especially of the tapering off of benefits. And in many cases, we thought that the communications of the measures meant that we put more on the table than we needed to, that we drove more support than was necessary at the time. That was a big source of tension.

MG: Let's go back to the specific words, though. A popularity contest?

BILL MORNEAU: When you're looking at how to do communications, you are thinking about how people are going to receive those communications.

MG: And within the office, the prime minister's office, but also in your relations, was that clear that they and the Prime Minister were concerned about how those decisions were going to be received by the electorate, how the polling would track those decisions?

BILL MORNEAU: Matt, That was clear from day one when I was in office. I think what I'm trying to make clear is the challenge that we face as governments react to the 24/7 news cycle. That challenge means that often, communications drive the day. The things that I'm focussed on, issues like how can we grow the economy for the long term? How do we make a long term change in our health care system that's really going to make a difference for not only this generation, but a future generation? The energy transition. These are all long term issues that require sustained effort against policies that can make a difference, and they are very difficult to do in the face of that 24/7 news cycle.

MG: Were you naive about politics? I mean, there's always been horse trading. There's always been a sense that, you know, strategies are deployed because you need to be re-elected. You want to do the right thing, but you also need to be re-elected. Were you naive coming into this?

BILL MORNEAU: I was optimistic.

MG: [laughing] That’s a different word.

BILL MORNEAU: I believed that we could make a difference. I know that we did make a big difference. There are many things that I identify in this book, things like the Canada Child benefit, the expansion of the Canada pension plan, the introduction of a national price on carbon, that were important and material changes to what our government was going to deliver. That made a big difference. What I do know, though, is that the challenges that we saw, those challenges against the typical tension between finance minister and Prime minister were greater than I expected. And they were greater because the focus, that short term focus was driving a lot of the decision making.

MG: I want to talk about those big issues, but just the last point on this. You write that the way that this Prime Minister has governed, in some ways, has added to the polarization that we see in this country right now. What does that mean? I mean, these are very polarized times. How has he added to that through the way of governance that you're describing?

BILL MORNEAU: My view is when you react to social media, when you react quickly to the 24/7 news cycle, you find yourself taking decisions, saying things that exacerbate the strongly held opinions of the people who are putting out those points of view.

MG: Like what?

BILL MORNEAU: Like what? I would say a really good example would be the decision in the last election campaign to use the vaccine mandate as a wedge issue. I didn't see that as something that was helpful. I obviously have a point of view on vaccines as being critically important, but I want to make sure that we listen to people, that we understand what they're feeling, that we try to work with them, and that we try to rise above that day to day fray. And that's what I think is important for a government.

MG: In the book, you highlight, as you mentioned, some of the huge issues that are facing this country. One of them is health care. You know, the premiers are demanding billions of dollars from Ottawa. You say the federal Treasury should not be viewed as a piggybank to be raided whenever health care costs increase. How should governments respond to the requests, demands from premiers and territory leaders?

BILL MORNEAU: What we did back when I was there in 2017 is we came up with a health care accord. I worked together with Jane Philpott to do that. My concern is that as we come up with these short term solutions, we don't actually think about the long term challenges that we're facing in the health care system and other parts of our economy. So in particular, in this situation, I think it's necessary for us to put all the issues on the table. I think it's necessary for the Prime Minister and the premiers to work together on a long term basis to think about how we can reform the system so that we're not totally focussed on money every couple of years, that instead we're thinking about the kinds of changes that will actually increase quality, increase access. Those are big challenges and they're not just money challenges.

MG: You say there is no shortcut. You also say to resist in some ways the call for more money. So when everything is on the table, what does that mean? What should be on the table that isn't on the table now?

BILL MORNEAU: I think that we need to do things like the current government is doing, demand accountability for dollars spent.

MG: Put the strings on the money.

BILL MORNEAU: I'm not saying necessarily strings on the money. I'm saying that what we need to do is put the people in the room together so that they can work together on these issues. Money is one aspect of the challenge. But certainly, we need to make sure that we have a continuing focus on the kinds of things that Canadians care about, that we have access to medical care when we need it, that we have consistent services across the country so that one part of the country is not deprived while another part of the country has stronger services. Money is a part of the issue, but federal government funds are not going to be the solution to the kinds of problems that we're seeing right now in our health care system.

MG: What do you make of what was announced yesterday in Ontario, the move to move some surgeries to private clinics? This is something that other provinces are doing in various forms, but is that something that you think will help address the crisis in health care that we're seeing right now?

BILL MORNEAU: In my book, what I suggest is that we actually have people work together on getting to a consensus on solutions. So individual actions by individual provinces I don't think are going to be consistent with our idea that we have a national health care system. I think people need to work together to think about how we can reform the system. I wouldn't be taking anything off the table other than a view that we need to maintain the high quality system with access for all, and do that in a way that is consistent.

MG: Do you think there's an ideological resistance to having that big open conversation about health care in particular?

BILL MORNEAU: My view is pretty clear. You've heard it this morning that the long term challenges are difficult for politicians. They're difficult because the electoral cycle, the staggered elections of provinces and the federal government make it hard to get together. So it requires leadership. It requires coming forward and saying we are going to solve this problem for a generation.

MG: But health care is different because of how we see health care in this country compared to other nations. I just wonder whether, again, there's an ideological resistance to having that big gut check conversation about that burning issue.

BILL MORNEAU: I don't think health care is different, Matt. I look at it as a long term important tenet for all of us, and that means we've got to get together to work on it. There's going to be ideological differences, but I think in the Canadian situation, we have enough different perspectives around the table to get to a point of view that includes all those different points of view.

MG: We have a cost of living crisis right now. People are worried about the high cost of everything. They're worried about carrying their mortgage. They're worried about putting food on the table. What should the government do right now to address the cost of living crisis?

BILL MORNEAU: My job in the book is really to think about the things that we can do that are going to make a long term difference.

MG: I know. But I'm asking you as somebody who knows, you know, the finance department. And this is an issue of our time. This book is filled with issues of our time. This is an issue of our time. What should the government do right now?

BILL MORNEAU: What should we do right now?

MG: Yeah.

BILL MORNEAU: Well, some of the things the government, in my estimation, are doing are the right things. I think putting forth the Canada Growth Fund that they put in the last budget was a positive initiative. They're looking at how they can give confidence to business to make investments in the economy that will have short term, but importantly, long term benefits, I think, for Canadians. What would I be doing? I'd be focusing on growth as my first issue in every single decision. Does this initiative lead to more growth? Because obviously, that leads to investment, it leads to jobs and it gives people more confidence in the future. We're going into a difficult economic environment. We're already in one, as you say, with inflation. But I think the challenge of a potential recession is clearly there. And so building confidence for people, focusing on growth, thinking about how we can make that recession, if we have one, shallow and short. Those are going to be the critical issues.

MG: Do you worry about the actions of the Bank of Canada tipping us into a recession?

BILL MORNEAU: I believe that the separation of the Bank of Canada to make decisions that are in the right long term health of Canada is critically important. So from my perspective, I've watched carefully and I've seen them reacting, in my estimation, appropriately to the inflation challenge. Inflation is incredibly painful for people to deal with, and getting through that period is job one.

MG: That pain is important in part because this is something that you write about in the book. You acknowledge that one of the concerns that was raised about you and something that you struggled with in your role as finance minister is that as a wealthy person, you didn't really appreciate the struggles of average Canadians. This is a perception that was around then. And as you say, you found it difficult to confront. This was highlighted during the we scandal when observers pointed it out. And I think most Canadians would know if a charity paid $41,000 for an expense. You claim that you didn't realize that, and then you covered that money back. How would you respond to that perception that you don't understand the struggles that people are going through in a cost of living crisis right now when they're worried about a recession?

BILL MORNEAU: I worked hard when I was in office to understand what my constituents were going through. I have to acknowledge, of course, that my situation was fundamentally different, and that led in many occasions to people's perception that I didn't understand. My job while I was there was to try my best to understand. I get the fact that people are facing challenges today, but most importantly, they need to be optimistic about tomorrow. And so when we're faced with a challenge in terms of our growth, and there's been a long term challenge, this is not a partisan issue, we need to be thinking about that as the first order issue. People are only going to be optimistic if they can see jobs for themselves and their children. They're only going to be optimistic if they can see that that promise that's come around for Canada for generations, that the next generation will be better off than the one before, that it's real. So that investing for the long term is critical. Understanding where people are at is essential for a politician. I worked at it, and I'm now trying to advocate for those policies that I think will make a difference over that long term.

MG: But as you say, you struggled with that perception. You struggled to give the perception that you could relate to the average Canadian.

BILL MORNEAU: We all are in our own situation. We all have to recognize that we can't fully understand someone else's situation. It's one of the reasons that in the book I identify our system, our system that forces people that are going to potentially be in Cabinet to actually knock on doors to try and understand people's situation. I think that system works. And I contrast that with the U.S. system where cabinet ministers are basically plucked from private sector jobs without any interaction necessarily with the population. Our system doesn't allow us to do that. I think that process is critically important.

MG: Part of this is about our place in the world. And you talk about our relations with people around the world. You say that if you insist on living exclusively according to your highest principle, you'll find yourself living with a very small number of people. And this is about the balance between human rights and trade in many ways. There's a war in Ukraine right now, and there are many calls for Canada to further distance itself from Russia. You say that this government should maintain links with senior government officials in Russia. Why is that the case?

BILL MORNEAU: The kinds of actions that Russia is taking mean that they are outside the pale of what we can accept. I do think that engagement is always critical at whatever level you can find it, because I think that engagement can potentially lead to better outcomes. I, in my estimation at least, don't believe that we should be engaged with Vladimir Putin at this stage. But I would want to make sure that there's some avenue for discussions. If we get to a hopeful situation that's better than the one that we're in today, having those kinds of relationships can only be positive.

MG: The same goes for China.

BILL MORNEAU: From my perspective, I think we need to recognize that nothing good comes from not meeting with people. You need to have strong relationships if you're going to get anything done. And avoiding those difficult situations is never a path to success.

MG: My sense is if the Prime Minister reads this book, he won't be particularly happy. But if he does, what do you hope he takes away from it?

BILL MORNEAU: I'm trying to be an advocate for growth. I'm trying to be an advocate for focusing on issues that go past the daily news cycle.

MG: But you're also very critical of him personally, but also critical of how he runs his government. So what would you want him to take from the book?

BILL MORNEAU: What I'd want him to take from the book is the same thing that I wanted him to take from our many Cabinet meetings and our many, many opportunities to work together. We need to be thinking about those things that are going to make a long term positive economic difference for Canadians. I don't actually think that he'll see anything in the book that isn't consistent with the way I comported myself around the cabinet table. I identify things that I think were quite positive, in particular, strong point around the renegotiation of the NAFTA deal. But I do think that the government needs to be thinking about those long term issues. It's leadership on things that are going to make the biggest difference for people over that long term.

MG: And you don't see that from him right now.

BILL MORNEAU: We can all do better. And I think what I've identified is the opportunity to do better on issues of economic importance, on issues that are going to make a big difference to people. Health care, the energy transition are places where Canadians are very concerned rightfully, and they want to see a long term direction that helps them to feel more confident.

MG: Bill Morneau, I'm glad to have you here this morning. Thank you very much.

BILL MORNEAU: Thank you, Matt. Nice to be here.

MG: Bill Morneau was Canada's finance minister from 2015 through 2020. His book, Where to From Here: A Path to Canadian Prosperity, is out today. Your CBC News is next. And then:

SOUNDCLIP

We know Ford has been scheming for years to privatize our health care system. His government has been following the privatization playbook to a tee. Ford's privatization scheme will not reduce the wait times for surgeries, and it sure as heck won't fix our health care staffing crisis.

MG: Ontario is looking to private clinics to help with the overloaded health care system. Not everyone, though, sees this as a long term solution to the crisis unfolding across this country. We will talk about what Ontario is doing when it comes to the health care crisis and why other provinces are paying close attention. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current, and we're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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ONTARIO HEALTHCARE

Guests: Kevin Smith, Bernard Ho

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to the Current.

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MG: Still to come, pinball wizards back with a vengeance. Around the world, people are smashing flippers and winning big money in the process. In just under 30 minutes, the pinball resurgence. But first, helping or hindering the public health care system in Ontario.

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SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: When it comes to your health, the status quo is no longer acceptable. We need to be bold, we need to be innovative, we need to be creative. We need to look to other provinces and countries to see what they do differently and borrow the best ideas. We also need to be clear, Ontarians will always access health care with their OHIP card, never their credit card.

MG: That's Ontario Premier Doug Ford announcing the province's plan to begin performing more publicly funded medical procedures at privately run clinics, starting with cataract surgeries and MRIs and eventually including hip and knee replacements. The province says this move will help deal with long wait times. Kevin Smith is president and CEO of Toronto's largest hospital network, the University Health Network. He's in Toronto. Kevin, good morning.

KEVIN SMITH: Morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of this idea from the Ontario government, as I say, to move up to 50% of surgeries eventually to these privately run clinics?

KEVIN SMITH: Well, as always, Matt, the devil's in the detail. I think we all are very aware that people are frustrated by the current wait time. So if this is a solution or can be part of the solution, then I think if done right and carefully and that we don't have unintended consequences, it can be a great help to increasing the denominator of care.

MG: A few caveats there that we'll get to in a moment. You mentioned the wait times. What sort of procedures are seeing the longest wait times in your province right now?

KEVIN SMITH: In Ontario at the moment, things like eyes, cataracts, hips and knees, minor gynecologic procedures for women, lumps and bumps, to the simpler procedures, lower acuity, high volume often in an uncomplicated patient, are those that are waiting longest.

MG: And so if you move those procedures out of a hospital, like the ones that you oversee to a privately run clinic, how is that wait time going to change?

KEVIN SMITH: So at the moment, the staffing, of course. All roads lead to staffing. At the moment, if we are short of staff or if we're unable to adequately staff with the demand, it would be those low acuity procedures that get cancelled or that don't get scheduled that day. And we have a long list of what we call long waiters, people who are waiting in excess of the recommended wait times in Ontario. I think the model that we're talking about is looking at creative ways of delivering that in environments where cancellations won't occur, and that we can experiment with new models of care, be it technology, digital care, new scopes of practice using extenders again in a low acuity safe environment.

MG: If we're talking about these facilities, these independent health facilities, privately run clinics, what exactly are they? I mean, help us understand what we're actually talking about here.

KEVIN SMITH: Yeah, I didn't actually hear in yesterday's announcement that it was exclusively about privately run, but that a call for proposal would go out. It might be for profit, it might be not for profit. You know, a number of hospitals will be submitting plans to expand these. But in Ontario, there's about 900 independent health facilities. The vast, vast, vast majority do very simple things like imaging, x-rays, ultrasounds. About 25 of them currently do things like cataracts and endoscopy and plastic surgery and a number of other environments like that. But again, low acuity, simple work. And for the next two years, the announcement yesterday, as I understand it, says let's expand access to those that we've seen working already, particularly in the area of cataracts and eyes.

MG: How would they be integrated with the public system and public hospitals like yours?

KEVIN SMITH: So I don't believe that that's yet been decided. I personally think the solution to that one is looking at the unintended consequences, putting in place a policy framework. I'd recommend that we use something that's been successful in the past in Ontario and other provinces. An expert panel who would provide advice to government about how best to do this, how not to see unintended consequences, like people from hospitals leaving hospital employment and going to these simpler, more civil hours, low risk, low stress environments. So I think we do have to make sure that the policy framework is safe and effective and that we're growing the denominator. Can we match the needs for more health care providers or new professions with some of our immigration policy? We won't train or immigrate our way out of this in the system that exists today.

MG: Is there any evidence that this will work? Is there any evidence that you've seen that this would help knock down those waiting times?

KEVIN SMITH: So currently and for a number of years, I'll just pick on one that were associated with the Kensington Eye Institute. Many years ago, we recognized that cataract, which can be a very simple procedure in an uncomplicated patient, could be done in a lower risk environment, and in an environment where staffing is different and that is exclusively dedicated to those procedures. And it's worked exceptionally well. High volume throughput, high patient satisfaction, high provider satisfaction. And it's been very much dovetailed back to the hospital. So many examples exist where this can be done. I think the key has always been aligning that centre and the hospital Centre Health Human Resource Plan, ensuring that physicians, for example, who cover those environments have equal responsibility to be in the emergency room or providing consultation in the case of ophthalmology for a foreign body in your eye when you might present to an emergency room. And again, with the right quality structure and the right oversight, these can be very successful.

MG: The Auditor General of Ontario in 2021 released a report that found that operating rooms were not being used to full capacity to help clear the surgical backlog. Are ORs being used at their full capacity now?

KEVIN SMITH: No, they aren't. When you look at the physical plant, could we be running them for longer hours? But I think that's a bit of a flawed view. It isn't about the physical capacity. It's about the staffing. When the challenge comes in that there are cases in the emergency room, potentially life threatening cases, greater demand, then it'll always be these low acuity, less complex, what we've often referred to as elective or scheduled procedures, that end up unfortunately being cancelled. I think this premises that if you took it to a dedicated environment where that's all that they do and they do it effectively, efficiently, quickly, that you will in fact prevent the cancellation of those, assuming we can again work out the issues of health human resource coverage. I think that'll require some creativity, but no one is happy with the status quo. At the moment, providers are unhappy, consumers are unhappy, and we're among the highest paying nations in the world for healthcare.

MG: But as you say, all roads lead to staffing. And so this is the concern that a lot of people have, is that this will bleed staff from those public hospitals like yours to a private clinic where, in your words, the hours are more civil. How is that not going to happen? That people will have a better quality of life. They might be paid more, they might not, but they might have a better quality of life and that they would leave the hospital where they are now suffering burnout to go to one of those private clinics.

KEVIN SMITH: You know, a lot of work will need to be done to ensure that isn't the outcome or this will be a failure. I'll give you an example of where I think that could be possible might it be possible, to work between a hospital and a clinic like this, whether hospital owned or partner and say, one week a month, two weeks a month, I'd like to work in a lower acuity environment. And this is the perfect environment for me. The other two weeks a month, in order to keep my skills up as a comprehensive provider, I enjoy working in the hospital environment. So we might be looking at opportunities where jobs could be split between an ambulatory surgical environment and a hospital based surgical environment. I don't think we should be constrained by this has to be all or none. I believe we can in Canada experiment with models that protect the hospital because at the end of the day, we all want it to be there for the truly emergent case while at the same time growing the denominator. We know that we have many new Canadians, an ageing society, and our wait times are already too long. So we have to think about new models of care. If done appropriately and with the right oversight and with the right quality framework, this can be a good addition to an existing strong system.

MG: These could be, as you mentioned, it's not determined whether they will be entirely for profit, but they could include a serious percentage of or a high percentage of for profit clinics. By definition, for profit means you are in the business to make money. And that has led to concerns around safety. I mean, when it comes to ophthalmology, the suggestion is these clinics would be paid $150 more for cataract surgeries than hospitals who would be paid for each surgery. Do you worry about the for profit motivation of these clinics?

KEVIN SMITH: Of course. You know, that is, again, an unintended consequence. I don't think we're embarking on these with a view that they should be more expensive than the existing publicly funded system. So I think we have to be very careful that this isn't, you know, skimming or creaming off the top the easy work and leaving the really hard work to the public hospital or the public clinic or the not for profit clinic. So I think we'll have to be clear in our quality metrics, and we'll have to also be clear in oversight. There does exist in every public hospital a medical advisory committee charged in legislation with overseeing medical quality of care. That structure’s there. I believe we can leverage that for environments like these. The other option, Matt, I think when you think about the private sector involvement, perhaps it's about the capitalization of these clinics, getting them built, getting them staffed, and maybe there's a per procedure fee for the use of capital while then again keeping the actual medical care within the not for profit publicly funded system. But remember, every physician in any province in Ontario is a private provider. They bill the government of Ontario for certain services, but they also build their patients for uninsured services.

MG: Just a couple of more questions before I let you go. One is that this is not simply about reducing the backlog. The way that the premier is pitching this is a permanent change, and is permanent change up to, as I mentioned, 50% of all surgeries moving to these independent clinics. What does that tell you?

KEVIN SMITH: I think it tells us we have a growth challenge and we have an expectation from consumers and we have a recognition that the existing system is going to have to dramatically change with an ageing society with better and more effective interventions, including digital interventions, and with a population that expects a more service oriented culture in health care than we've seen in the past. Again, are there challenges within that? Absolutely. But other challenges today, I feel badly when I hear a provider advocating for their patients who is unable to get them to an operating room or a procedural room in a time that's fitting. If this can help get patients care more quickly and safely and effectively, and it can preserve and protect access to more acute care, then it can only be a benefit.

MG: Well, and the last question that I have is just as you said, the status quo is not tolerable for many people who are waiting 18 months for cataract surgery and seeing their quality of life diminished. Is there an ideological opposition, do you think, to the idea of putting everything on the table to talk about how we address the health care crisis that we're in right now?

KEVIN SMITH: Yes, I think there is. If I were to be maybe overly critical, if you really think about the Canadian health care system, we haven't done anything radical in it since Tommy Douglas, really radical around its structure, its payment reform. We've tinkered at the edges. But across this country and across every political party that's been in power, they've been very marginal changes. I think we're hearing now from frontline providers and most importantly, consumers. The status quo is not acceptable. I expect more rapid access to high quality care. And we clearly have a younger generation that sees consumerism as something important to health care. I think we have to change with the times.

MG: Kevin Smith, good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

KEVIN SMITH: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Kevin Smith, present CEO of Toronto's University Health Network. Bernard Ho is a family and emergency physician in Toronto, board member of the Canadian Doctors for Medicare. He's been listening in. Dr. Ho, good morning to you.

BERNARD HO: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for being here. Do you believe the status quo is acceptable when it comes to the wait times that people in your province are facing for things like cataract surgery, hip replacement, knee replacement?

BERNARD HO: Well, that's probably the one thing that we can all agree on is that the status quo currently is not acceptable. And we've seen the effects of long wait times with the surgical backlog. But I think the way that the government is going about it is probably how we differ in our opinion of what should be done.

MG: So if the status quo isn't acceptable, and the government says that this will shorten wait times for things like cataract surgery while still being covered by provincial health insurance, what's the downside that you see?

BERNARD HO: So it's a great question, Matt, and I think this goes a little bit into the weeds. But when we talk about the quote and unquote privatization of health care, I think there's an important distinction that needs to be made. So firstly, are we talking about how health care is paid or the financing of health care? I think that's what most people think about when they hear the word privatization. So that's whether a service is paid through Medicare or OHIP, like a hospital visit, or whether it's paid through private insurance or out of pocket expenses. The other distinction is the delivery of health care, which is what this announcement is about. So who is delivering the care that you're receiving? Is it a not for profit facility or a private for profit facility? And our concern with this announcement is that the majority of these independent health facilities, so 98% of them operate on a for profit basis. So this is public taxpayer funds going towards private for profit facilities rather than towards publicly funded facilities whose main priority is the patient. And so our concern lies there that the poor, these for profit facilities, they're beholden to shareholders. Their main motivation is to turn a profit. And that often comes at the expense of the patient.

MG: What would you say to people who are waiting 18 months for a cataract surgery in the face of that opposition? I mean, I just wonder whether they believe, and they're not uniform, obviously, but whether they're concerned about, as you say, the weeds or whether they're concerned about their quality of life.

BERNARD HO: So I would say a few things. So one of our concerns with these for profit facilities is that because they exist to turn a profit, there are measures to increase the revenue. So for example, upselling patients. We talk about cataract surgeries. We've seen cases of patients being offered more than what's necessary and paying out of pocket for these expenses. Another way these facilities try to turn a profit is to decrease costs in their clinic by running a leaner operation, which can potentially compromise patient safety. And, you know, we have evidence from around the world of for profit facilities causing increased mortality. We see it in the U.S. for profit hospitals associated with higher mortality rates. In the U.K., through their NHS system, when they began outsourcing to for profit providers in 2013, evidence again showed an increased rate of treatable mortality. And even in Ontario, can we forget what happened in long term care homes during the first few waves of the pandemic? The evidence there showed that mortality in for profit investor owned long term care homes were 78% higher than their non-profit counterparts. So when faced with that evidence, this is not just an opinion anymore that not for profit facilities often have worse outcomes. This is evidence based. These are factual.

MG: This is being unfolded in various jurisdictions. I mean, in British Columbia and Alberta, there are variations of this approach. I just wonder if it's not entirely unprecedented, are there things that, we heard the premier talk about this yesterday, are there things that Ontario could learn from those other jurisdictions to try to tackle those, you know, 200,000 people who are waiting on the waiting list for surgeries in Ontario? Are there things that could be learned from those other jurisdictions?

BERNARD HO: So there are publicly funded solutions that have been shown to work in Ontario, in other provinces and in many other jurisdictions across the country. So for example, something like a centralized referral system. So right now, as a family doctor and an emergency care physician, when I refer a patient to a specialist, let's say a surgeon, I refer to whichever surgeon I know or a surgeon within the hospital system or someone close to the patient's home. I have no idea what their wait times are and that information is not publicly available. What centralized referral systems would do would allow all of these referrals to go into one central apothecary, and the patient would be seen by the next available provider. This would help to decrease wait times. And this is something that's being done in small silos across the country. But I'd like to see the government expand that on a larger scale. Another example are multidisciplinary teams. So working with our allied health teams, the physiotherapists. So again, if I wanted to refer a patient, let's say for orthopedic surgery, I would refer to one of these multidisciplinary clinics where they would initially see a physiotherapist first and the physiotherapist would assess the patient and actually determine if they need surgery. This would alleviate a lot of the burden on the surgeon, and would prevent the patient from having to wait months to see a surgeon, only to be told that they don't actually need surgery. So we have examples of ideas that are already working, but we just need to implement it on a larger scale.

MG: I want to play something from elsewhere in the country. This is Janice MacKinnon, professor of public policy at the University of Saskatchewan School of Public Health. She's a former provincial finance minister as well. Take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

JANICE MACKINNON: No other country in the developed world would be debating having private clinics where people get services and the government pays. Every other developed country has clinics of this kind and a routine, and they're not subject to debate. In Saskatchewan, a lot of people who for ideological reasons were opposed to the private clinics, actually use them. They're in locations where, you know, in a mall maybe or something. You drive up, you park, you walk in, right? As opposed to going to the hospital. The fact that, you know, hospitals are more susceptible to patients getting infections well in the hospital. So it's a frustrating debate to keep seeing again and again because our health system doesn't measure very well. It's expensive. It has long wait times. Our health outcomes are not as good, and we just don't look to, well, what's happening in these other countries.

MG: Dr. Ho, this is the same question I asked Kevin Smith. Is there an ideological opposition to a conversation like this because of the place that health care occupies in our psyche as Canadian?

BERNARD HO: So I think we should definitely be having a conversation about this and about the status quo. I think the crux of the question is how can we best deliver care to all of Ontario and all of Canada? And I think that's the debate going on right now. And the evidence, again, shows that the best way to do it is through publicly funded solutions. And the way to do that is to invest in public funded institutions and infrastructure. So in primary care, in long term care homes and home care. The evidence again shows that publicly funded measures will increase patient satisfaction, will help improve patient outcomes, as opposed to their for profit counterpart.

MG: If that's what the evidence shows, what do you think this is really about then?

BERNARD HO: Well, I think, again, this is a half measure from the government at best.

MG: But what is, I mean, I'm asking you this as an executive member of the Canadian Doctors for Medicare. If you say the evidence shows that the outcomes are better and that you can reduce those wait times by putting those monies into the public system and bolstering the public system, what is this move really about to you?

BERNARD HO: Well, the concern here is the slippery slope of quote and unquote, privatizing health care, of increasing delivery of health care through for profit facilities and through eventually being more similar to a U.S. health care system.

MG: But when you hear the premier say you'll always pay with your OHIP card, you won't pay with your credit card, are you at all reassured by that?

BERNARD HO: To be honest, not really. And again, when we talk about some of these more private facilities, some of them have been upselling patients. So patients have been paying for health services with their credit card already. They may not be medically necessary services, but they are. It’s still happening. And so that is our concern, that we want the best quality care for all of our patients, regardless of cost, regardless of ability to pay.

MG: It's fascinating watching this unfold for a number of different reasons, particularly because the list is so long. I mean, we know this. And this is not just to reduce the waiting list. This is a permanent move, as the government is saying.

BERNARD HO: And that's again a concern for us as well. And the government has sort of touted this announcement as bold and innovative. But these independent health facilities have existed in Ontario since 1990. You know, they have yet to solve the health care crisis. And I don't believe that they will have the intended consequences, the intended effects that the Government and the Premier are expecting.

MG: Dr. Ho, I'm glad to talk to you. Thank you very much.

BERNARD HO: Thank you very much, Matt.

MG: Bernard Ho, an emergency and family physician in Toronto, executive member of Canadian Doctors for Medicare. Your thoughts on this. Are you on one of those waiting lists? Are you one of the 200,000 people in Ontario and the hundreds of thousands elsewhere who are waiting for surgery? What's that wait been like? And given that wait, what do you make of what Ontario is moving forward with? Email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up after your regional updates, do you have a supple wrist? Can you stand like a statue? What about crazy flipper fingers? What exactly is he talking about? If so, you might have what it takes to get into competitive pinball. Coming up, how the arcade game is getting a new lease on life. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Back in 90 seconds.

[Music: Theme]

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PINBALL

Guest: Alison Masemann

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[pinball machine sound]

MG: That's Oliver and Owen trying at pinball machines for the first time at a new arcade on PEI. This game is vintage. It's made in 1988. It is called Secret Service, with a little model of the U.S. Capitol in it. And your job is to protect Washington from the evil Soviets. That plotline is a real throwback, kind of like the idea of pinball itself when you think of it. It is an old game that is finding new fans. Stern Pinball, one of the big manufacturers based in Chicago, reported that sales went up five-fold during the pandemic. The International Flipper Pinball Association, which is, yes, the governing body for competitive pinball, says that in the past decade, the number of competitions has also increased five-fold. Our producer, Alison Masemann, has been looking into the new found appeal of this old school game. Alison, good morning.

ALISON MASEMANN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Tell us about your first stop on the trail of the popularity of pinball.

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, it's actually just a quick ride outside Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, on the outskirts of that city, to seven’s Pinballorama, which is located in a squat one story building across the way. There's a motel. The business right next door is a pizza and Donna Air Place. It's really not much to look at, but once you step inside, it's a bit of sensory overload.

SOUNDCLIP

[pinball machine sounds]

MG: Reminds me of like the arcades that I used to go to as a kid. Do you remember arcades?

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah. Yeah. [laughing]

MG: Sorry. There's a whole generation that is like, continue, old man.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah. This place is wall to wall machines around the entire outside of the room. Plus there's a bank of them in the middle. The walls are dark, primary colours, a bit kind of eighties style, but the lights are dim. So what you really notice are all the flashing lights and graphics on the machines. And then there's also a little snack bar in the corner, which is stocked appropriately with retro style soda pop.

MG: Very nice. It's been a while since I've played pinball. Yourself?

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah. Like you're saying, it's sort of a vestige of earlier times. Last time I played pinball was probably in my friend Michelle's basement in the 1980s.

MG: Classic moment.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah, for sure. I was actually a pinballorama with my own kids, part of our family vacation. And I think this was actually their first time ever seeing a real pinball machine.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: This one, there's three flippers instead of two. And it's all about the army and aliens.

ALISON MASEMANN: Oh, and what one are you playing now?

CHILD: I'm playing Batman Forever, I think. It's quite fast and hard to see the ball because it's quite dark and it's a lot harder than the other ones.

ALISON MASEMANN: Another kid, Mitchell Perry, was finding it pretty hard too. He was next to us, flipping furiously, trying to get his ball up this one particular ramp. He's here with his daddy.

MITCHELL PERRY: I'm here because my dad and I are making a pinball video game, and we're getting ideas for it here to make it more interesting, I guess you could say. My dad and I, we both knew that we wanted to make some sort of video game for phones, and we didn't know what. But then my dad came up with the idea and I thought it was an amazing idea. I like like the chaos. Kind of like how like the ball goes everywhere. And sometimes you can get multiple balls and stuff like that. It's free, like interesting, and all the flashing lights kind of. It's just chaotic and fun pretty much.

MAN: You know, you can play on your phone, you can do all that stuff, but this is just a hands on and it's, you know, it's mechanical. It's not computer based. So it's just different.

ALISON MASEMANN: So it's a totally new experience for a kid like Mitchell. But then I did also run into a grandpa at the arcade who said playing pinball again reminded him of going to the old pool hall in Charlottetown back in the 1970s.

MG: It's like a time machine, but a nostalgia there for you. How far back do the games go at this place?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, the games here, there's about 40 of them all together, really span the entire history of pinball right back to the 1930s.

SOUNDCLIP

SEVEN GRAYLAND: As a historical item, this one back in the corner, this is a 1934 Rube Grossman Company The Mystery six.

ALISON MASEMANN: Seven Grayland and his partner, Sophia Creuzcamp own this place.

SOUNDCLIP

SEVEN GRAYLAND: So this was early, early pinball.

ALISON MASEMANN: Seven says it's the largest collection of classic pinball machines in Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

SEVEN GRAYLAND: 50 Yuma, Arizona, they've now kind of figured out flippers. They figured out how to light lights behind the back glass to show you what your score is. Same with this one, 1954, a big hit.

ALISON MASEMANN: That's a baseball theme.

SOUNDCLIP

SEVEN GRAYMAN: baseball theme.

ALISON MASEMANN: How would you describe kind of the different themes that pinball machines encompass?

SEVEN GRAYLAND: It seems like in the fifties and sixties, they did a lot of familiar sports. So they did a lot of baseball, there's a handful of bowling themes, something that people are more familiar with. And then getting into, after Space Invaders and the space thing started and Star Wars, then we started seeing a lot of space themed ones. Stellar Wars and Alien Poker and a lot of science fiction based stuff.

MG: Alien poker? Do tell.

ALISON MASEMANN: [laughing] I wish I knew more about alien poker.

MG: Yeah.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah. After that sci fi phase, we kind of move into the fitness craze of the 1980s. Remember let's get physical? There's one machine.

MG: I thought you were just about to dance, but continue.

ALISON MASEMANN: [laughing] There's one machine here that'll take you right back to that era. It's actually a body building theme covered with images of women in bikinis flexing their muscles.

SOUNDCLIP

SEVEN GRAYLAND: This is a mid-eighties ballet hardbody themed as one would expect in the eighties. It looks like an eagle print kind of. This was my very first pinball machine right here. We started looking into the idea of getting a pinball machine, but the prices were quite expensive. So I didn't know if I would play it after a week or so. So we found this one on Craigslist for around $800. We brought it home, and then we just played the hell out of it. We just played it non-stop. So the next one I got had port bumpers, which are the little Daley Bobbers.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah, circular kind of bouncer things.

SEVEN GRAYLAND: Then I wanted one with multi-ball. So the next one I got was. And that's how this whole madness started.

SOPHIA CREUZCAMP: When we started collecting more and more, it was like, okay, yeah, we'll get another one and another one. And we had the space at home.

SEVEN GRAYLAND: At eight machines, I met up with a bunch of other people that were involved in pinball. They had collections at home. And my friends started telling me, you know, we go to all these different places. We really like come into your house because you have all these really interesting machines. So that's when we decided, let's see if we can open an arcade.

MG: So they decide to open an arcade. Sure, why not? How difficult is that?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, that’s actually a bit of a story. They were ready to do this several years ago. They'd accumulated this collection. At the time, Seven and Sophia were living in British Columbia, and they wanted to open up there. They'd found a good location in Mission, B.C., and had agreed in principle to leasing. He had the paperwork in hand to open the business, and then.

SOUNDCLIP

SEVEN GRAYLAND: The very next council meeting, they banned arcades in that zone and just shut us down completely. And I could never get an explanation. Like, well, there haven't been arcades in Mission in 20 years. Why now? Like why worry about it now?

MG: Did they ever figure out exactly why?

ALISON MASEMANN: No. Seven says he's still not really 100% sure why the town passed this new bylaw. Although, I looked it up, and it seems to have been designed to prevent not just arcades, but also things like tattoo parlours, flea markets, stores that sell marijuana and marijuana paraphernalia.

MG: I mean, how unusual is a bylaw like that?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, there actually used to be lots of towns and cities with arcade laws. Montreal actually had a by law on the books until 2017 that banned “amusement machines in places where alcohol is served”. In Toronto in the seventies, there was one famous raid where 150 machines got unplugged at one place. And in fact, there’s still a Toronto by law that says you can only have two mechanical gaming machines in a restaurant or place of amusement. But apparently, that is very rarely enforced.

MG: I can imagine people across the country kind of nodding knowingly about Toronto and its bylaws. Seven And Sophia ended up on the other side of the country to set up their arcade?

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah. So no bylaws there, apparently. Sofia had travelled to PEI for work and sort of fell in love with it. Still, there were issues. The pandemic delayed their opening. But now that the place is up and running, Seven has really been surprised at the interest.

SOUNDCLIP

SEVEN GRAYLAND: Some people that came in today, they had never played pinball of any sort before. They didn't know. They didn't play video pinball or anything. So I have to give them a little lesson. Here's how you start the game. Here's what the flippers are. Here's how to get the ball onto the playfield, which I love. I love that aspect of it.

SOPHIA CREUZCAMP: It's been interesting watching folks that have never played pinball, especially younger folks. We did a fair a few years ago, and there was a boy who couldn't understand that the score reels were mechanical on one of our machines. He thought it was an LCD screen. So it is really interesting to see people get pulled into that mechanical world and kind of understand a little bit more about pinball. And I think you start to get hooked on them, and also seeing people getting hooked on the different machines.

ALISON MASEMANN: So people are getting hooked on this. They've even started up a competitive pinball league at the arcade.

MG: A competitive pinball league. What is that?

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah. So this is a whole other world that I knew nothing about. But there are thousands of pinball competitions around the world every year.

SOUNDCLIP

[pinball machine sounds]

JULIE DORSERS: So you can see that 5000 saucer at the top is lit and that one is not. So that's where I want to put the ball.

ALISON MASEMANN: So that is the voice of a competitive pinball player. That's Julie Dorsers, who I met while she was practicing at a friend's place in London, Ontario.

SOUNDCLIP

[pinball machine sounds]

JULIE DORSERS: Look at that. And I did it.

ALISON MASEMANN: We're just in the basement. It's like most rec rooms, a comfy couch, a TV, a light on the wall with the logo of a beer company on it. Although to fit the vintage theme, it's the old Vienna beer brand, which you may remember as well.

MG: Indeed.

ALISON MASEMANN: But the big difference with this basement is a row of seven pinball machines along the wall.

MG: And tell me about the games.

ALISON MASEMANN: So Julie is playing one called pin up. This is another vintage number from 1975. It's based on the game of bowling. And the graphic on the back panel shows characters who sort of look like they're from the Archie Comics, trying to score a strike. Her friend Corey Cook is looking on, and Julie shows me just how you rack up big scores in this game.

SOUNDCLIP

[pinball machine sounds]

JULIE DORSERS: Well, you're always trying to keep it off the top because it's safer up top.

COREY COOK: There’s a lot more involved than just keeping the ball in play. You know, when you're a kid, all you really are trying to do is make sure you don't lose the ball. So in this case, Julie's trying to hit down all those drop targets, because if she manages to do that, once they reset, it'll light the drop targets for more points. And it'll also allow her to add balls to the game. So instead of having only, say, five balls to play, she'll have six.

JULIE DORSER: So now it's on the other side. I lost the ball and I didn't get anything. Yeah.

MG: So she lost the ball that time. But she is a competitive pinball player. So how good is she?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, you can sort of hear she knows the ins and outs of all the games in this basement as she shows them to me. She can rhyme off the special features, the tricky bits. Her eyes sort of light up like a pinball machine, you might say, as she shows them to me.

MG: How did she get so good at pinball?

ALISON MASEMANN: So lots and lots of practice, lots of playing with friends, and then lots of competition over the past ten years or so. She started in a local league here in London, and then worked her way up to the big time.

MG: What is the big time in pinball?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, we mentioned that off the top, this organization called the International Flipper Pinball Association that keeps track of all the tournaments and rankings. Before COVID hit, Julie was competing at tournaments in New York City and Pennsylvania, up against the best in the world. There are some women only tournaments that she's in. She likes those. The vibe is a bit more supportive, but she does play against men also. It's hard to find enough tournaments otherwise.

MG: How did she get into this?

ALISON MASEMANN: It's funny. I mean, she didn't really do it as a kid. She grew up on a farm. There was no pinball to be found, really. So it started for her a bit later in life.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIE DORSER: When I was in college, I don't really drink. So I would be the driver. And by about 11:00, everybody's like saying the same thing and you know, they're a little bit pickled and tipsy. So I would go play the pinball machine at the bar, and I would meet people just playing pinball. They go, Oh, can I play? And I'd be like, Yeah, well, I have a couple of games, right? And we'd play together. I really enjoyed that.

ALISON MASEMANN: So Julie got hooked at that point. And as she's gotten older, she's in her fifties now, she says pinball has sort of almost become this meditative experience for her.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIE DORSER: For me, pinball, I like it because when you play pinball, you have to focus on the game and you can't think of all the other stuff in your life, you know, like dishes and, you know, what I got to get at Costco and all those other things. So I can lose myself in pinball. The other thing is there's a big pinball community, and nobody talks about their job. They talk about pinball. So it's a really good way to get away from the daily stresses of life, I guess.

MG: So she plays competitively. And this is not in any way to diminish her abilities as an extraordinary competitive pinball player, but how much of this is like skill and how much of it is just luck?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, that is sort of the $10,000 question or the 25 cent question, you might say. I talked to her and her friend Corey Cook about this, who actually runs a business repairing pinball machines.

SOUNDCLIP

[pinball machine sounds]

JULIE DORSER: The trick is you have to get it in the lit saucer at the top when you plunge the ball, and then you've got to hit all the pins down like in bowling. And these flippers, they're called mini flippers, and two pop bumpers which can really mess things up.

COREY COOK: And the geometry is a lot like, you know, billiards. In that, you know, you're using the flippers to aim the ball where you want it to go. And there's a famous story of a gentleman named Roger Sharpe, who had to demonstrate the skill involved in pinball in order to convince the New York City Council to legalize it within the city in the mid-seventies.

JULIE DORSER: He loved pinball, but he never saw the games because it was illegal. And so he was like, Well, why is it illegal? And it was because of the mob era way back in the day when there was no flippers. So initially, games didn't have flippers. You just plunged the ball and the ball would go.

ALISON MASEMANN: Totally more of a game of chance.

JULIE DORSER: More of a game of chance. But because all these mob guys had games everywhere to make money, you know, five cents, they decided it was gambling.

ALISON MASEMANN: So that's more talk there about why pinball used to be banned and why it's sort of always been associated with kind of the city side of life. What's funny is as I was talking to Corey, over his shoulder on the window ledge, there was this framed vintage print, it said, no gambling. For amusement only

MG: Very nice. And people aren't really gambling necessarily on pinball anymore. But you still can make money from this, right?

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah, you totally can. I mean, Corey, who I mentioned, makes a full time living doing this, fixing pinball machines. He hasn't always done this. For two decades in fact, his career was as an audiovisual technician at the local university who just tinkered with pinball machines in his spare time.

SOUNDCLIP

COREY COOK: In 2008, 2009, I started doing pinball house calls on the side just to bring in some extra money. People started to find out that I knew how to fix the machines. I was pretty active on pinball forums. There's quite a collector community out there for these types of things. And so the phone started to ring and I started to go and do more and more house calls. You know, people would call me and say, Can you fix my machine? And I'd love to be able to just say yes rather than say, you know, sorry, I don't have time or. And considering how few individuals there seem to be in southern Ontario who are willing to travel and go into people's homes and fix a machine, confidently fix a machine, it seemed that the time was right for me to start up my business.

MG: This may be a silly question. Why is it that so many people need their pinball machines repaired?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, you can buy new machines and people are buying those, but there are obviously a lot of used ones out there. When arcades would closed down over the years, they'd try and sell off their stock. And lately, more and more people have been deciding it would be fun to have one of these old machines in their basements or whatever. They usually need at least a tune up.

SOUNDCLIP

[pinball machine sounds]

COREY COOK: I'm just going to open up the machine, and the first thing I would do is make sure that the score motor turns. It should always turn if you start to turn the score motor just with your hand. The stepper units, you can check their operation by making sure that they step up and reset. I found the idea of owning your own pinball machine. Fascinating. Like that you could own something that was supposed to be in the arcade. It was really industrial equipment, but you could own it in your own home. And so the idea of taking this broken machine that has, you know, for all intents and purposes, is destined for the scrap heap, to take something broken like that and make it work again, you know, it really is a bit of a rush.

MG: So he gets a rush from fixing these machines. But what about people who play them? There are so many different ways that you can amuse yourself and games that you can play in ways that you can be entertained. Do we know, having, you know, gone into the tunnel of the pinball world, whether playing the games now can give you the same sort of rushes as playing a video game?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, I've been thinking about that question too, especially for kids. You have to wonder if this old technology can really compete with what they've got at their fingertips these days. I asked Corey about it.

SOUNDCLIP

COREY COOK: Pinball is far more tactile and engrossing than video, than, you know, digital, whatever screens. You know, if you learn the rules and how a machine works, you can get so many long hours of enjoyment out of a game like that. And also, it's imposing. I mean, they're not small. If you've got a machine in your house and it works well, everybody's going to notice it. You know, everybody's going to gravitate towards it because it's still unique and unusual to most people.

ALISON MASEMANN: I also raised this issue with Seven Grayland who you'll remember, the co-owner of the arcade out in Cornwall, PEI.

SOUNDCLIP

SEVEN GRAYLAND: You can have two machines that are the same title side by side, and they're both going to play just a little bit different because the target that the ball hits is going to rebound a little bit different on one than the other. There's little imperfections in the play field. That's what people like about them too. I think in the last 10 years, there's been a big resurgence on pinball. And I think it's sort of video games or one of those things that the pattern that the computer is programmed to follow. You can win the game. It just takes tenacity. There's probably a little bit more skill required to win some of the newer video games. But pinball is random, it's kinetic, it's chaotic, it's physical. You know, it's a physical, tangible item. It's a thing.

[pinball machine sounds]

MG: It sounds almost poetic the way that he describes it. It's a thing. So the big question having done all this work, it's a very fascinating story, how is your pinball game?

ALISON MASEMANN: [laughing] I have to say, I tried to play a little bit and I'm not that good. I think it'll take a little bit of practice. At the pinballorama, you actually pay a flat fee. So it's better for beginners, right? Like, you can keep trying and trying.

MG: You know, just pumping quarters into the machine.

ALISON MASEMANN: [laughing] Exactly. It's a little less depressing. But I really do think I need a lot more practice. Although I can see what Julie was talking about, about the stress relief. I could see how you could get really into it.

MG: It sounds like you're hooked.

ALISON MASEMANN: I may well be. I’m going to have to find an arcade here in Toronto.

MG: Alison, thank you.

ALISON MASEMANN: Thank you.

MG: Alison Masemann is a producer here at The Current. Talking about pinball, you knew this was coming, right? Canadian guitarist and songwriter Steve Onotera. His version of Pinball Wizard that features actual pinball machines on percussion.

[song: “Pinball Wizard” by Steve Onotera]

MG: Thank you, Steve Onotera and the pinball machines there. That’s Pinball Wizard. And that's it for The Current for this Tuesday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. Before we go, I wanted to tell you about a story that's coming up later on this week on our program. We were speaking with Bill Morneau earlier, former Canadian finance minister, about the cost of living crisis. Food inflation is hitting double digits last year, and many Canadians, as you know, are worried about how to afford groceries. I'll be speaking with Michael McCain. He is the CEO of Maple Leaf Foods, one of Canada's largest food producers, about why he believes food is so expensive.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL MCCAIN: That's always a source of concern when you have inflation like this is to try and find the root cause. I get that the food industry in the supply chain has a profit margin that's in pennies on the dollar. Our profits, for example, this year, unfortunately for some of our stakeholders, are down 60%. So the drivers of food inflation are systemic. And you have things like a post-pandemic economy that has been fundamentally inflationary, and the addition of cost to the supply chains. You have the war in Ukraine, for example, has been very damaging to the global agricultural markets, caused grain markets to skyrocket, and supply chains around the world deteriorate. So, I mean, you look at the cost drivers, it's regrettable, it's unfortunate. It has obviously impacts, but it's not profit margins in the supply chain. Canada as a country, in terms of the percentage of the Canadian GDP and average incomes, has one of the lowest percentage food costs in the world. And I think some of that is achieved by a concentration and scale economics that exists in this country. You know, I think the facts support the assertion that the food chain itself and the systemic issues are driving inflation in this country and around the world, in all parts of the world, not irresponsible pricing.

MG: Lots to talk with Michael McCain about. You can hear my interview with the CEO of Maple Leaf Foods coming up later on this week. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current, and I’ll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: Theme]

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Tuesday January 17, 2023 Full Text Transcript

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