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The Current Transcript for January 12, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

Don't let the cynicism overtake you. The only way things get worse is if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend that these are not problems that can and should involve us all.

MATT GALLOWAY: For more than 25 years, Samantha Nutt has seen some of the worst of this world up close, working in conflict zones with War Child Canada. You might think that cynicism would come easy to her. This morning, as part of our series Reasons for Optimism, Sam Nutt reflects on progress made in dark circumstances and the power of defiance in the face of oppression. That's in 30 minutes. Also this morning, are you someone who goes out of your way to avoid small talk at the bus stop or chatting with strangers in the grocery store line? If so, Gillian Sandstrom would like a word with you.

SOUNDCLIP

They're spontaneous. We don't know what to expect, which is both exciting and interesting. But also I think part of what makes it scary sometimes is you just don't know what's going to happen.

MG: The Canadian researcher loves to talk to strangers. She's here in an hour to talk to us about research showing how tiny interactions with people we don't know can be good for our mental health. We start in the Mediterranean and the legal and political blowback facing those saving migrants from drowning in the sea. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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Volunteers on trial in Greece over migrant rescues at sea

Guest: Sean Binder, Caroline Willemen, Giulia Tranchina

MG: Six years ago, Sean Binder went to Greece as a volunteer with Emergency Response Centre International. This is an organisation helping asylum seekers as they arrived on the island of Lesbos. Nearly five million people had already used that route in the years before. But the experience for Binder soon turned sour. One night, waiting on the beach for migrant boats, Sean was arrested. 24 defendants with the now defunct non-profit group face charges of espionage, forgery, trafficking and being part of a criminal organisation. Today, Sean Binder is back in Lesbos, where he's on trial for some of those charges. Sean Hello.

SEAN BINDER: Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for being here. I'm going to ask you about specifics, but just broadly, what do you make of these charges against you?

SEAN BINDER: I mean, on the face of it, they sound incredibly serious and really heinous. But as soon as you kind of dig into the evidence presented, you begin to see that there's not much to them as narrative unravels. So, for example, I think that the one charge that we're most interested in is the spy. And frankly, I thought it was when I first heard it, I was very impressed with myself as well. A bit of an ego boost when you quickly realise that what it refers to is the fact that I use WhatsApp. Now, I've communicated with with you folks via WhatsApp in anticipation of this conversation. Does that make us spies? Surely not. They say that I have illegally helped people enter because I didn't communicate with the authorities, but on every occasion, based on the police's own evidence, I can prove that I can.

MG: What about the trafficking charge? I mean, again, that seems like a very serious charge.

SEAN BINDER: It does exactly. So that the charge is actually the facilitation of illegal entry, which is similar, but not quite as heinous. Trafficking involves coercion as well. But so what they're saying is that I helped people cross the border. They say I did that on 12 occasions. Now, for over half of those, I had never been in Greece in my entire life. And yet they say I was at the border committing this crime. And for the remaining charges, I can prove based on the police's own evidence that I was, in fact, communicating with the authorities. I mean, I stood shoulder to shoulder with the authorities, with the Coast Guard, with the police. In fact, we provided training to some of the Coast Guard officers. In the ideal world, there would be no need for search and rescue because no one be grounded in a better world. The authorities would be doing this. But in the world that we live in, unfortunately, it was 20 something year olds like myself who had to train some of these officers how to do basic CPR. And to me, that is deeply troubling because we have a responsibility to protect people who are at risk of drowning. And that's really what this all boils down to. No one should be abandoned to die.

MG: Why did you want to go to Lesbos in the first place?

SEAN BINDER: For me, you know, I grew up in Ireland and on the West Coast, and there's a whole lot of nothing apart from perhaps sheep and the oceans to interact with and to spend time with. And so I spent a lot of time in the mountains and honing my skills. I spend a lot time in the water doing search and rescue, diving, sailing, swimming. And so I felt I had some practical skills. At the same time, I did my master's degree in European defence and security policy. And that's when I realised that the way that the European Union responds to one of the most severe humanitarian crises to befall the continent is by securing our borders against people in distress. And to me, I think, deeply troubling. And so I thought, look, I have this practical experience through my rescue diving, my sailing, and I have this policy knowledge. I'll go and volunteer.

MG: And so when Sue, you were there, what did you actually do once you got to the island?

SEAN BINDER: I mean, I joined a search and rescue organisation that I had two boats to search and rescue vessels. We had a medical clinic, so we were well equipped to offer emergency response assistance to people, you know, making these very dangerous journeys in very dangerous conditions in the dead of night, mostly. That's what we responded to. Now, at the same time, it's really important to note that we have the sense that search and rescue is a super exciting and dramatic experience. And it is on occasion. But the vast majority of the time that I did very little, you know, I offered perhaps a smile and a warm blanket to someone who is actually a survivor. Most people are fleeing the kinds of conflict that I could never dream of surviving, and I hope I never have to. And so I did very little most of the time. And that's what's so frightening, because if I can be criminalized for handing out a bottle of water, if we make that criminal act, then it will be a criminal act when you hand out a bottle of water, or show the smallest gesture of kindness to people. That's what's at stake here.

MG: We're talking about the charges. But when you were arrested initially, what happened in the wake of that arrest?

SEAN BINDER: So I was arrested for the first time in February of 2018. It was entirely unclear exactly why I was being arrested. The shoreline at around 3:00 a.m. with my colleague, Sarah Mardini. We were taken in and our devices were taken from us, our laptops. And we spent a couple of nights in a police station cell and then released pending further investigation. And then an article was leaked that said something like a German spy supposed to be me and his Syrian accomplice that was to be Sarah were arrested in a stolen military jeep trying to infiltrate a naval base to steal state secrets. And I thought, that's pretty impressive, but this must be a joke. I've done nothing of the sort. But we quickly realised over the months when we continued working with the authorities, the same folks that arrested us, that this was actually not a joke. This was exactly their thinking. This was exactly the narrative forming around my work. And eventually I was arrested and detained for three and a half months in pre-trial detention with convicted felons. I was handcuffed to murderers, all because I provided some very basic search and rescue to people who have a fundamental right to receive it.

MG: What do you think Greece is trying to accomplish here in charging people like yourself who are volunteers with humanitarian groups in the midst of this, what's been characterised as a refugee crisis, a migration crisis? What do you think Greece is trying to accomplish here?

SEAN BINDER: For me, Matt, I think it's quite clear and there isn't a shred of evidence that we've done anything wrong, but there is a narrative that search and rescue is creating a market for smuggling. And what's really interesting is it's quite an intuitive argument, but actually there's no evidence whatsoever to underpin it.

MG: The narrative being that people would be put on boats because they know that rescuers are there to help them if they get into distress.

SEAN BINDER: Exactly. So I was sitting I was, I was in prison. I had a lot of time on my hands. And I thought, you know what? I want to understand this. I want to understand why this is happening to me. And so I asked for as much research policy papers, risk assessments by the authorities to understand what's happening in exactly your argument, what you just said, it is what comes up. But there is no evidence for it. And in fact, the irony, the horrible irony, Matt, is that the anti-smuggling laws that we have put into place, the policies, they actually facilitate the entire market for smuggling, because there are three facts here. Quite simply, wars and conflict exist and people trying to escape them as they should and rightly can or should be able to do. And number two, in order to seek asylum, you have to be within the territory of your would be host state. You cannot apply speculatively for a visa, for example. You have to make that journey into the country. And since 2016, we secure our border. We have dogs at our land borders that will attack migrants for trying to take the easiest and safest route across. And what does that leave us with? That leaves us with a policy that has forced those most vulnerable into the hands of smugglers. And trust me, I more than most have seen how terrible that is. The conditions that smugglers cram children into. I mean, it is so cynical. When I saw a little child clutching onto an empty water bottle because it was given to that child as a buoyancy aid. I mean, this is horrible. And if we truly want to stop smuggling, as I believe we should, and let's provide safe routes for asylum, the only way we can stop the problem of illegal activity at the border is by creating safe means of seeking asylum. And that's not a utopian view. I'm not I'm not being naive here. That is literally what the law says we should be doing. I'm not asking for the EU for Greece to do more than it has already ratified, has already said it would do.

MG: Sean, we'll leave it there. We're going to talk more about that larger picture of the smuggling networks and what the responsibility of the European Union is. In the meantime, I'm glad to speak with you. Thank you very much.

SEAN BINDER: Thank you so much, Matt. Goodbye.

MG: Seann Binder is one of two dozen volunteers facing charges in Greece for working with a humanitarian group that helped migrants seeking asylum. We did ask the Greek embassy in Canada for comment on this case and these charges. We did not hear back. NGOs across Europe have been watching this case closely and say they have been dealing with further restrictions from governments when it comes to helping those migrants at sea. Caroline Willemen is deputy head of Mission for Search and Rescue with Médecins Sans Frontieres. And this morning she is in the Italian port of Ancona, where an MSF migrant rescue ship is docked. Giulia Tranchina is a researcher with Human Rights Watch on migration and Asylum in Europe. She is in London, England. Good morning to you both.

GUESTS: Good morning.

MG: Giulia. Let me ask you the same question that I asked Sean. What do you think Greece is trying to do here with these charges?

GIULIA TRANCHINA: Greece is trying to send a chilling message to any volunteer humanitarian worker, human rights activists trying to, first of all, expose and document the unlawful practices of pushbacks and denial of the right to seek asylum for people on the move and to expose the effects of these inhuman and unlawful deterrence policies put in practice by Greece, most other EU member States. And is trying to intimidate and terrorise people, you know, rights activist and humanitarian workers, rescuers on scene to try to deter them, scare them, to make sure they stop helping, rescuing and providing basic acts of solidarity and humane assistance to vulnerable refugees.

MG: These are, these are serious charges. Do you think there's any basis for the charges of espionage or trafficking or being part of a criminal organisation?

GIULIA TRANCHINA: I think actually these charges are baseless and farcical as denounced by the European Parliament and the majority the unanimity of human rights and international legal organisations. We have some serious concerns with regards to procedural flaws that are undermining the defendants rights to due process and to a fair trial. But also substantively, these charges are perversely misrepresenting the group's search and rescue operations as a smuggling crime ring. Well, this is the registered organisation. The law that they would have allegedly violated actually explicitly provides that the offence does not cover helping asylum seekers. And they try to mischaracterise legitimate fundraising activities by a non-profit organisation as money laundering. And then the police announced at the time of the arrests in 2018 that nonsensically the crimes were related to organised migrant trafficking rings, trafficking in both coercion and deception for the purpose of exploitation for which they have provided no evidence whatsoever. They file as includes Blatter on factual errors, claiming that some of the accused are participating in rescue missions while they were not even in Greece. They failed to include pages of missing pages. The charges are against individuals referred to with numbers. So it's not clear whom each number represents, leaving the defendants to guess which charges they're facing. They were not provided with translations on the indictments, never received the summons. So the trial needs to be immediately concluded with a conviction of the charges. Charges needs to be dropped.

MG: Let me come back to some of the issues that are at play when it comes to the work that you're doing. But Caroline, I want to speak with you because you are in the Port of Ancona because new policies from the Italian government. And as Giulia mentioned, this isn't just a story about Greece. This is a story about the EU. What are you seeing right now? Are people actually disembarking that ship that that that you're in front of?

CAROLINE WILLEMEN: Yes, exactly. So you may have heard a little bit of cheering a few minutes ago because all people are now safely on land. And at that moment, we always take the opportunity to say that our rescue is completed because a rescue is completed and people have disembarked in a place of safety. So which is now the case? But you are very right in saying that it was absolutely unnecessary for us to feel so much further north to the Port of Ancona rather than disembark people in a port further south, as we used to do.

MG: What impact does that have on your operations and why do you think the Italian government has made you move so much further north in the country?

CAROLINE WILLEMEN: So the immediate impact that it has is basically that we spend a lot less time in the search and rescue area where we do most of the rescues because obviously it's taking us more time to sail north to a port further away. And then again, it will take us more time to sail back south. Part of the new legislation also includes that after one rescue, we are asked to go into port. It is good to be assigned a place of safety quickly, but of course it means that we can no longer be active. So for example, to make the two compared to last year on average, we rescued 275 people per rotation. Now we just came into port with 73 people, having done just one rescue while on average before we were do over four rescues per rotation, even up to 11. When the weather is good, many people leave at the same time. So you will do many rescues of several boats. And so now we are being asked to return after just one. So obviously that has implications for us as an organisation, but much, much more importantly has implications for other people who are trying to leave Libya and who will not be rescued.

MG: Why do you think the Italian government has put those policies in place again? This connects in some ways with what Julie was speaking about in terms of why she believes Greece has laid these charges.

CAROLINE WILLEMEN: Yes, I mean, exactly. I think unfortunately, it's a narrative that we see across the European borders and that I'm very sad to see as a European citizen that basically the work of NGOs is being made more difficult. Obviously, our operations will become a lot more expensive in this way. It will not be tourists, but for sure it's making our operations more complicated, more complicated than they have to be in for. How to say like it- there is no logical explanation. In this particular case, people had to sail an additional four days in incredibly bad weather. People were very sick. People had to be moved from one deck to another because there was so much water entering the boat. It's completely inhumane and it is cruel and unnecessary because they easily could have disembarked in the south of Italy. And if they have to be taken to another centre of residence, it is much faster to put people in a bus and drive them across the country than to be in a boat that is hardly moving because we were sailing against such strong waves. So indeed, I mean the only understanding we can have of this situation is that they are trying to to block us from from doing our work, trying to block us from doing the work that we should be doing.

MG: Giulia in that blocking, Human Rights Watch has accused the European Union of abdicating its responsibility to ensure that search and rescue in the Mediterranean is possible. In that, do you believe the countries are in violation of international law?

GIULIA TRANCHINA: Yes, absolutely. They're in relation to the Central Mediterranean, Italy, Malta. As I've started collaborating with the Libyan authorities and facilitating interceptions through the did the work of the air surveillance of Frontex, the EU border agency, but also through the setting up of a search and rescue area allegedly controlled by Libya. By restricting their operation presence of the Libyan coast or withdrawing all their naval assets and obstructing and criminalising the work of rescue groups and blocking ships in port, ignoring requests to dock. All these measures lead to violations of maritime law in terms of coastal states obligations to coordinate and carry out search and rescue operations because these are distressed sea. And this has led to refusals and delays by Malta, Italy and Greece to rescue migrants in distress, which have led to many shipwrecks and deaths in the Mediterranean. And. Did your migration policies of cooperation and funding to the Libyan authorities are facilitating interceptions in full knowledge that people are returned to detention, torture, exploitation and other horrific abuses, which makes EU member states complicit in these abuses. So in violation of EU, regional and international human rights law, if, for instance, the obligations with respect to the right to life prohibition of torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, the right to claim asylum, the prohibition or a full mark to the threat of torture and persecution. And so all these migration policies are in violation of international law.

MG: Caroline, do you, do you worry? Caroline, we're just about out of time, but do you worry, Caroline, that because of these deterrent measures, but also those charges in Greece, that you could see fewer NGOs actually being involved in these rescue operations because of the concerns around legal battles that they might face?

CAROLINE WILLEMEN: I mean, I think for sure it is a major concern and it is something in which, unfortunately, we have to spend so much time and energy now in trying to ensure that it doesn't affect our operations too much. We remain very much convinced of the work that we are doing and should be doing. For sure, it could deter organisations prohibitive costs but could become an issue as well. So it is very much affecting the operations that we do in that we we want to and plan to continue doing.

MG: But is any of this just very briefly, is any of this deterring people from getting in those boats in the first place?

CAROLINE WILLEMEN: None of this will deter people from getting in those boats because, as Giulia was saying, they are fleeing detention centres in Libya, they are fleeing torture, they're fleeing the most horrible abuses you have ever heard about. They will keep coming. If we are not there to rescue them, they will be taken back to Libya or they will drown. And that's the reality that we're facing.

MG: Well, we're out of time, but we'll leave it there. Certainly come back to the story and future. I'm glad to speak with you both. Thank you very much.

CAROLINE WILLEMEN: Thank you very much.

GIULIA TRANCHINA: Thank you.

MG: Giulia Tranchina, a researcher with Human Rights Watch on Migration and Asylum in Europe. Caroline Willermen is deputy head of Mission for Search and Rescue with Medicins Sans Frontieres. Your CBC news is next. And then reasons for optimism and hope from some of the toughest places in the world will tell you more about that coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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War Child Canada’s Samantha Nutt on finding reasons for optimism

Guests: Samantha Nutt, Alfred Okech

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to the Current.

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Still to come, sharing a smile or a nod with a stranger on the street is one thing, but striking up a conversation with a perfect stranger who would do such a thing while talking to a stranger may actually be the kind of kindness we need. But first, reasons for optimism from two people on the front lines of global conflicts.

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MG: When you follow the News of the World closely, it is easy to despair. We are just talking about the refugee crisis in the Mediterranean. There is, of course, the war in Ukraine, the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan. Amid all that, my next guest says there are still reasons to be hopeful. As part of our series, Reasons for Optimism. I'm joined by Samantha Nutt. She is founder and president of War Child Canada. It is a charity that supports young people and families affected by conflict. She's with us in our studio in Toronto. Sam. Good morning.

SAMANTHA NUTT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Are you, by nature, an optimistic person?

SAMANTHA NUTT: Oh, that's a tough question. I think if you get up every day and try to prevent war and atrocity, you have to believe in better outcomes or you wouldn't do the job so well. I'm surrounded by challenges and a feeling of being overwhelmed by the state of the world. At the same time, I do see terrific progress being made, and that is what gets me out of bed every day.

MG: Can you talk broadly about that? We'll talk about some of the specific things that you've seen. But I mean, in many of the places that your child, Canada, operates, it's been a really difficult year, as I mentioned. So where broadly are you finding those glimmers of optimism, those glimmers of hope?

SAMANTHA NUTT: It's been a difficult couple of years, too, especially in coming out of the pandemic. We've seen a decline in the security situation across all of our countries of operation, with the exception of Uganda. And so when I think of glimmers of hope, Uganda is the largest refugee hosting country in Africa, more than 1.4 million people who have fled to Uganda to find safety. And we're running programs, for example, on kids education, allowing those who have been displaced by war, who have missed out on years of education to catch up on their learning, get back into the school system and pursue their hopes and dreams. And that to me has been quite extraordinary to watch that progress, to witness firsthand. And I was just there a few months ago. The investments that are being made by Canadians, by the broader international community, and seeing kids who now have hope, they have dreams, they have ambitions. That for me is is what it's all about and gives me tremendous optimism.

MG: We're going to go to Uganda through somebody who works with you in just a moment and hear more about the work that's happening on the ground. Before we do that, let's talk about a couple of other places. What about Afghanistan? We've talked a lot on this program about what's happened since the Taliban took back that country and obviously most recently an escalation in the erosion of women's rights in that country. From your perspective, I mean, what does that mean in terms of the work that you can or can't do there?

SAMANTHA NUTT: It's extremely challenging. Afghanistan is one of the countries that keeps me up at night. We've been on the ground there for more than 20 years doing primarily education work, but also women's economic development. And we have been focusing almost entirely most of our efforts on women and girls. About 30% of our staff are women. So the current situation presents enormous challenges, and at the same time, the humanitarian needs grow more and more every day. It is you know, there are about 6 million people at risk of acute starvation in Afghanistan right now. So we're facing some very difficult choices. At the same time, if we're talking about optimism, what I do see is resistance and defiance. In the face of that, I see international organisations, humanitarian organisations, including our own mobilising, coming together, trying to push the Taliban to make concessions to reverse this particular order. You know, I do see women and girls who remain defiant despite the hardship that they're facing to the extent that we can continue to invest in that and honour that, that's something that remains to be seen. But it's a it's a really it's a tough, tough situation. I mean, there's no easy path forward.

MG: Can I go back to something that you said, which is that you're facing difficult choices in terms of the work that you can or can't do. Part of the latest movement in Afghanistan is to prevent women who would be working with NGOs like yours from being able to do that work. What are the difficult choices that you're facing? Can you continue to do that work?

SAMANTHA NUTT: Well, for the moment, like many other organisations, we've pressed pause on our operations while we try to put pressure on the Taliban to reverse this decision. The big question, though, is given the level of vulnerability and the risks and we're also running girls education program at the primary school level. If we pack up or stop doing our work, then those girls don't have access to education. There are more and more vulnerable people. Two thirds of the population is entirely dependent on humanitarian assistance to get by. So if you have a mass exodus on principle of the broader international humanitarian sector, there is no question that the humanitarian impact will be deep and it will be devastating. So those are the kinds of tough choices that we're all facing, not just our organisation.

MG: And that's the kind of thing that wakes you up at 3:00 in the morning.

SAMANTHA NUTT: I mean, it stopped me from going to sleep and then it wakes me up and that's been going on for more than a year ever since the Taliban takeover over the security situation. Navigating in that country is. It's just been excruciating and it's not getting any better.

MG: We talk a lot about resilience and resistance, and you used a different word. You used the word defiance. Why did you use that word?

SAMANTHA NUTT: Resilience to me is almost it's a more passive word. It's kind of passive acceptance of what's happening to you. And then you get up and you persevere. Whereas defiance is what we see in Iran when young girls and women decide to take a stand and to unify around their rights and their expression of their rights. And that's what we see in Afghanistan, and that's what I've witnessed firsthand in Yemen as well. And so that to me is where you really see strength, you see solidarity, and you see a movement towards change. And that's what inspires me.

MG: Solidarity, I mean, in Afghanistan is part of this. There were stories of women being prevented from going to class, but men walking out of class because they said if they can't go, we are going. That is what you're talking about.

SAMANTHA NUTT: Exactly. Solidarity, you know, right across the board, global solidarity, national solidarity, people taking a stand and saying we're not going to accept this. The very fact that they're willing to take those risks, given what's at stake, it can be life threatening for them. And they risk imprisonment. They risk death, they risk torture. And yet the fact that they're still willing to take that stand is incredibly inspiring and gives me optimism. And that's what we want to invest in as an organisation, but also for myself as a Canadian. That's what, you know, just the right to exist and to advance and to have hopes and dreams and to be able to pursue those. That's what we all want. And certainly people living with war want that just as much, if not more than anyone else.

MG: You mentioned Yemen. You are literally about to get on a plane to go to Yemen.

SAMANTHA NUTT: I am, yes. For the second time in two months, actually.

MG: Why is it important for you to be there for the second time in a couple of months? This is a war in a country that many people feel has not received the attention commensurate to the situation on the ground there. There's a lot of other things that are happening in the world. And for a lot of people, Yemen is on the back burner in some ways. So why is it important for you to be there?

SAMANTHA NUTT: Matt, for exactly that reason, because it is one of the worst humanitarian crises in the world. It has been on the back burner. It has been largely overshadowed. There are very few humanitarian organisations, particularly Canadian organisations, able to implement. We are able to implement. We're doing education work. We also want to do some more food security work. The security situation is quite challenging. So for us this is a phase of expanding those programs to respond to this emerging need, but also hopefully over time to be able to draw attention to this neglected crisis.

MG: When you are there, what do you see? Where do you go? What? How do you. Given the difficulties of the situation on the ground, how do you get around? What are you seeing?

SAMANTHA NUTT: It's challenging. Our programming is about 5 hours from Sana, for example, in the north, we're on both sides, the north and the south. You go through there and back. It's about a 27 armed checkpoints. So it is very tricky. And in some of those environments, the international aid workers haven't been around and meeting with communities in literally decades. So to be there, to be able to talk to local communities, to understand the needs, to understand the gaps and the risks, to be able to see the challenges kids are facing in classrooms where malnutrition rates are upwards of 50 to 60%, which affects their learning and their and their capacity. I mean, these are the kinds of things that we have to evaluate so that we can determine how our programs should function to be able to better support children.

MG: When you arrive in those communities that haven't seen international aid workers in 20 years, I mean, what's the reaction?

SAMANTHA NUTT: Excitement, shock, disbelief, interest, enthusiasm. It's it's all of those things more than anything. I think getting back to the point of solidarity before just the simple act of being there means something. And it symbolises that the rest of the world has not forgotten what's happening within those communities and the vulnerabilities that they face. And that's, that's extremely important. It matters. It matters to them that their suffering is not going unnoticed.

MG: When you make those trips, is there something in what you're doing that lets you believe that there is a difference that being made? In part, I ask this because of the scale of the issues and how that scale can often. It can make people feel as though there's nothing that can be done in some ways. So when you're there, do you feel that sense? And we're talking about hope and optimism that there is the possibility for change, but also that you're seeing change happen in front of you in a time that is is realistic.

SAMANTHA NUTT: You see direct change happening, that that's the extraordinary part of what I do. It's a great privilege to bear witness to it every single day. So, for example, young girls who fled the war in Congo, who had experienced sexual and gender based violence, who arrive, who are pregnant, who are then not able to access education, because in Uganda it is illegal to to go to school if you are pregnant and up to the first year after you have given birth. And we work with these young girls to ensure that they get back into our into schools through our accelerated learning programs, that they're able to complete their education. We run catch up learning. They'll do two years over one year until they can reintegrate back into the appropriate grade level. And at the same time, we provide child care for those those child mothers so that those kids can attend school and they will tell you stories of how they had they felt lost and hopeless and as if they would never be able to advance in life. And now they have dreams and ambitions, and not only for themselves, but for their children, that they will break out of this cycle of violence and poverty and live a different life. And that is that is all inspiring. The kind of.

MG: Stuff that your hair and your arms stands up when you describe.

SAMANTHA NUTT: You know, and it makes you and I'm like a hardened war zone cynic. It makes you want you know, it makes me weep and nothing makes me weep. It's a tough thing to do after 25 years of doing this work. And so when you see progress, it's very easy to believe in it and to invest in it. What frustrates me and what makes me pessimistic is when you see that progress and then because of political expediency or lack of donor interest or lack of media attention, you're not able to generate the kind of resources that you need to be able to keep that success going. And that's the stuff that actually makes the work harder. It's not the lack of progress. Progress is absolutely everywhere. It's seeing those gains and then being faced with the harsh reality that they could evaporate if you're not able to sustain it.

MG: I want to come back to that in a moment. You mentioned Uganda a couple of times. Your colleague Alfred Okech has been listening. He's country director with War Child Uganda, and he is on the line from Kampala. Alfred, hello to you.

ALFRED OKECH: Hello.

MG: We've been hearing Sam talk about not just resilience, but resistance in Uganda. Where do you see that resistance most strongly?

ALFRED OKECH: I think for me it's really from the [unintelligible] groups. We work with a lot of refugee organisations and many times the frontline of helping us to identify persons with the most needs, making sure that we understand the priorities communities have, and basically challenging structures, challenging government institutions, challenging different parties that are causing issues to ensure that they still space to give refugees another chance. If we look at some of the people we support being able to fight back and claim that dignity, despite all the odds, that is complete resistance for me.

MG: How would you describe the scale of the refugee crisis that's unfolding in Uganda right now? Uganda is hosting a million and a half refugees, but what does that look like in terms of the work that you're doing on the ground?

ALFRED OKECH: It's a huge scale. Uganda being one of, you know, one of the countries with the lowest development indicators and also had suffered, you know, years of violence with the [unintelligible] army and so on. And all of a sudden, you know, for the last maybe ten years, we've been hosting over 1.5 million refugees. It's a strain on resources. But also, if you look at the amount of work that many humans [unintelligible organisations have to do, it's enormous in terms of the kind of resources needed to take care of these people, but also keeping your heads high that at some point you believe that lives would be restored. And you know, communities are given a second chance to life. So it's a huge task as I speak right now. And these active fighting in Congo. We have been receiving a lot of refugees from the DRC. At some point, you know, receiving to the tune of 1000 a day for about a month slated before Christmas. So it's an ongoing issue that are grappling with you.

MG: A couple of times reference that idea of restoring people's dignity and watching people restore their lives. I mean, I ask you this in part because this is your own story, right? How did you how did you come to be doing this work? Because this work is personal for you as well.

ALFRED OKECH: Yeah, you're right. I, I was born in Kenya. My parents were refugees in Kenya during the Idi Amin region. And after Idi Amin was ousted, we moved back to Uganda. And shortly, you know, there was the LRA conflict that happened. And again, we were displaced again to another part in in the eastern part of Uganda. So a significant portion of my childhood was basically in place, you know, moving from one location because of war. I would say that has given me a lot of empathy with people struggling with issues of war and displacement. And I think there are those who define the kind of things that I value in life that I should lay my hands on. Okay. I'm a lucky refugee because if I compare the kind of issues that people who are facing violence and war are facing right now compared to, you know how lucky I was to manoeuvre, I count myself very lucky. But it kind of motivates me in a different way because I know, I know the feelings. I know what you know, small amounts of resources and the small amounts of peace and small amounts of protection can mean to a life of, you know, a parent or a family. And for me, that's what I really want. It gives me every day when I wake up.

MG: What have you learned, Sam, from the work that you've done with Alfred?

SAMANTHA NUTT: You know, from the very beginning that our model and reason for existence was to redefine humanitarian aid, to look at instead of focusing on short term interventions, to look at what are some of the drivers of conflict, what are what is lost over the long term, How can you meaningfully reinvest and rebuild societies through children and then through their families by extension? And a huge part of that model, in fact, the central part of that model was to ensure that we were investing in local communities, local actors, people who understood the threats and challenges better than anyone else. And that's why out of our almost 400 staff throughout the world, more than 99% are local, including at the most senior level, the country director level, and having pathways for people to move up within the organisation and to be able to to lead in that in that way. And to me, Alfred is just emblematic and his team of that, of that goal and that ambition. And you know, it is because of of Alfred's leadership and his courage and his experience that our programming does have the humanity that it has in, in Uganda, that it treats refugees with the word that he used with dignity. And Alfred and and many of our other local team members and country directors are are hugely inspiring and really underpin the optimism that I that I feel in those moments that I have it.

MG: That work comes at a cost. And you mentioned donor fatigue. You mentioned government inaction, perhaps, or, you know, operating on a four year, five year election cycle. The fact that the media has a short term attention span and there's a lot that's happening in the world and our our attention gets distracted. What is what are you up against in that work? I mean, particularly around funding this work, because we know in the wake of the pandemic, we have seen a decrease in donations for many charitable organisations. And I'm assuming watch Child Canada is among those.

SAMANTHA NUTT: Yes, certainly. And we've also seen with the crisis in Ukraine, a redirection of focus and attention and resources towards that crisis.

MG: Away from countries like Afghanistan.

SAMANTHA NUTT: And in underfunding. Yeah, I mean, you know, Alfred mentioned Congo. Less than 9% of the humanitarian appeal for Congo currently has been funded. I mean, that's quite, quite appalling really, given the the escalation of need. So, you know, the big challenge, Matt, is that it takes no less than a generation to see the effects of well-managed aid. If you're talking about helping people emerge from poverty, providing them with the kind of social safety net that they really need to recover and rebuild, that's not a one time investment. It's not as simple as a short term. Needs food, water, shelter, blankets. As critically important as those things are, you really have to make longer term, consistent investments. And so much of our donor cycle is driven by the by the news media or even at the at the donor level, the institutional level by governments. I mean, most grants are six months, one year, three years. Rarely do we think about a ten year pathway. But that's what you should we should be thinking about our 5 to 10 year pathways and making consistent investments so that people have the security that they need to be able to complete the cycle and really emerge in a better place. So that's that's part of what's what's hugely frustrating. And at the same time, also the security situation where we're dealing, you make tremendous strides and then something happens and then the whole thing deteriorates again and you're you're left sort of scrambling and trying to rebuild, which is just the inevitability of this work.

MG: How do you want the global community to respond then? I mean, again, Alfred talked about the scale of the refugee crisis that he's seeing in Uganda, globally, what, 90 million people on the move right now. And the sense is that that will only get worse as the climate crisis accelerates. What should we be doing? How should we be responding to this?

SAMANTHA NUTT: By engaging. That's probably the simplest way to look at it. We're often very cynical when it comes to humanitarian aid, and we think that money that is spent in other parts of the world will be misused or abused in some fashion. That doesn't get to those who need it. And I can tell you, after gosh, almost three decades of doing this work, that is categorically untrue. And when we become cynical, when we disengage, that's when those gains are lost. That's when we see more violence, more instability, more intractability in terms of of our ability to to manoeuvre. We've got 50 million people at risk of acute starvation right now. If there was ever a time when we should be listening and responding and funding these kinds of activities to prevent them from deepening, it's it's now and it doesn't have to be a huge amount, but it should be a consistent amount. I say to people all the time, you know, it is better to have to make regular investments in an organisation that you trust and believe in, whether it's world or any organisation that's doing good work, such as a monthly contribution, than to write a check once and to walk away and to wonder why things don't seem to get any better. Consistency is what's really required.

MG: And so part of that is about cutting a check. But the other part of it, I mean, again, this is to the individual who says, you know what, the news is terrible. I'm turning the radio off and closing the newspaper. I remember speaking with our colleague Carol Off, who said that that's a luxury. Most people in the world don't have that luxury. What would you say to the individual who says those big problems are overwhelming and I don't know what to do?

SAMANTHA NUTT: They may be overwhelming, but there are people doing things about them every single day. People like Alfred, who all they ask is for a small sliver of your attention and your consideration and support. It doesn't have to be a lot. And like I said, we have school programs. I mean, he mentioned the thousand refugees arriving every single day over the month of December. Many of them end up in our classrooms. We've got kids sitting on benches that are designed for two, where you've got six of them all piled on top of one another. It doesn't take a lot to be able to invest in those communities and create new opportunities. And so that's what I would say is don't let the cynicism overtake you. Find an organisation that you believe in, get involved, support them, give if you can and recognise that the only way things get worse is if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend that these are not problems that can and should involve us all.

MG: Alfred, last word to you. I mean, again, we started in talking about that idea that there are reasons for optimism in the face of overwhelming crises. From your perspective, given what you're seeing on the ground in Uganda, where are you finding a sense of optimism and a sense of hope?

ALFRED OKECH: So I strongly believe this optimism because of, you know, the impact that I see, and that is providing another chance in life for the refugees. Many times when the displaced from the DRC or kind of South Sudan, they come when they've lost hope completely and just being able to, you know, give them a chance to enrol back to school, give a chance for some of their child mothers to be able to take care of the children, but also be able to, you know, and giving a chance to some of the children to become children again. For me, that is the biggest hope and the biggest driving factor and it takes very few resources to restore that hope.

MG: Alfred, I'm really glad to talk to you. Thank you very much for the work that you're doing and thanks for speaking with us.

ALFRED OKECH: Thank you very much for the opportunity.

MG: And Sam, good to see you and safe travels.

SAMANTHA NUTT: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Samantha Nutt is the founder of War Child Canada. She was with me in our studio in Toronto. Alfred Okech is the Uganda country director for War Child Canada, and he was in Kampala. You heard their reasons for optimism. What are yours? What are you feeling optimistic about as we start a new year in the face of all of the news, that could be the opposite of optimism lead you down a different path. Let us know. You can email us or send us a voice memo. thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up after your regional update, the thrill of talking to someone new.

SOUNDCLIP

It is a surprise to me that I'm someone who talks to strangers all the time because very, very truly, honestly, an introvert. But I think actually, sort of ironically, it's something that really suits introverts.

MG: Introverts or otherwise. The power of an unexpected conversation and what that can do for our mental well-being. We'll tell you more about that coming up in 90 seconds. My name is Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stick around.

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Why talking to strangers is good for your mental health

Guests: Gillian Sandstorm, Pete Bombaci

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Hello.

BRANNIA O'DWYER: How are you?

VOICE 3: Good. How you doing? Thank you.

RECORDING: 283 to East Acton.

MG: We're riding a bus in Hammersmith, which is a neighbourhood in London, England. There's a new pilot project underway here, and it comes in the form of stickers. A group called the Neighbourly Lab installed hundreds of stickers to encourage more kindness on the buses. Brannia O'Dwyer is a researcher with the lab.

BRANNIA O'DWYER: So we are now aboard a bus and we've just hop on and passed one of the stickers on the way in which says Who can say hello first? And the other entry sign is more of a pro-social kind of sign. It reminds passengers of the impact of saying hello and it says, Thanks for how you can make my day.

VOICE 4: Thank you.

VOICE 5: Thank you.

MG: Saying thanks or hello is something that some passengers already do.

Speaker 4: Every time I get on the bus, I always say hi to the driver, then always say thank you, Have a nice day. All that. Or if I get off the bus as I'm walking past the fun, always wait. So I drive on. Just common courtesy.

VOICE 6: I believe I say thank you sometimes when I get off the bus because they're doing a job all day long, you know, it's nice for them to have some interaction with the customers, really. I do. I do. Because they're human beings. We're not robots. I do a great job.

MG: This project comes after the Neighbourly Lab spent hundreds of hours observing interactions on buses. On average, only one in five passengers greets a driver when boarding. Now that the stickers have been up for weeks, Brannia O'Dwyer says the results thus far have been encouraging.

BRANNIA O'DWYER: So we did interviews with passengers was the signs have been in place. We were at different bus stations asking questions and 27% of passengers had seen the signs, which doesn't sound like a big number. But for us that's actually quite exciting because if we're only having 27% of people seeing the signs at this moment in time, we're still seeing the behaviour changes that we're seeing. That's a very exciting thing to think about in terms of if you could make the science bigger or more salient, do whatever kinds of small tweaks you might make, could see an even bigger increase in engagement. So as the small pilot that this is, it's a big potential from what we can see.

MG: This passenger has not noticed the stickers, but once they're pointed out, we ask if it will prompt her to say hello.

VOICE 7: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, I think possibly it would made their day because it's a very difficult job they do. So if people are kinder to them, more respectful, they need to be nicer for them. I say if there is somebody on the bus who does say that, who does say hello, then I think if other people see it, then they might pay attention and do that next time. So I think it's a very good idea.

MG: For bus drivers in Hammersmith. This initiative is well, they feel it isn't only good for them, but good for passengers, too. Here's Eddie, who's been a driver for six years.

EDDIE: I love the experience. You mean different people from different nationalities and from there on your local route. You make bonds with, like, certain members of the community. A very good, friend is namee John. I am on the 27th route and he is a local. It's quite refreshing. We do a lot of [unintelligilbe] because he'll ask me about back home. We talk about his health and interacting with him. You could see the pleasure he gets in life. Oh, Eddie, where have you been? And I'll tell you where I've been that I said, John, where have you been as well? So being able to make an impact with somebody like him, that the sight of him gives me a pleasure and the sight of him seeing me kind of life in his day makes the job very interesting.

MG: Those are the kinds of interactions and connections that the Neighbourly Lab hopes their project will inspire.

BRANNIA O'DWYER: On the routes where there are signs, we're seeing more people engaging with the driver as they're getting on. We see that as sort of a two sided thing, making the bus drivers job just a bit nicer, getting to have those interactions. And then from a passenger perspective, just having more niceness in your day to day, which seems like something insignificant, significant, but really isn't. This project is very much an effort to think about how can we reinstall that feeling of community on the bus network?

MG: Gillian Santorums Research informed this pilot project. Gillian is a Canadian psychologist who studies social connection and talking to strangers. She is a senior lecturer in the Psychology of Kindness at the University of Sussex. Gillian, good morning.

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: Good morning. Good afternoon here.

MG: Tell us, I mean, we hear people interacting with folks on the bus in ways that perhaps they may not otherwise without that kind of prompt. What do we know about what we get out of that? The little hellos and thank you's? What does that do for us?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: First of all, I just want to say I hadn't heard that footage before and it just made me smile so much. I've been doing research on talking to strangers for about a decade now, and what my research shows is that it just puts us in a good mood. You know, I started doing this research because I sort of developed this relationship with a lady who worked at a hot dog stand and seeing her every day just sort of gave me a bounce in my step. So. So my benefits definitely also feelings of connection and feelings of trust in other humans. And there's some new research by a group out of Chicago showing that we actually learn stuff, too. We learn more than we expect to from talking to strangers.

MG: Tell me more about the data that you've collected and what else you've seen in terms of what we actually know about what this is doing for us.

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: I mean, I think it all stems from the human need for belonging and connection. So it's really important to us to feel that other people see us and appreciate us and need us. And so, yeah, the research shows that just making eye contact with someone or saying take a small hello can just make people feel seen and give us that feeling of connection to other people.

MG: You've described this as an act of kindness.

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: Yes, absolutely. So the University of Sussex teamed up with BBC Radio four here to run a giant public science project called The Kindness Test. And we asked people all sorts of questions about the last act of kindness that they performed, but also the last act of kindness. They received about 10% of the time. The most recent act of kindness that people mentioned was an act of kindness from a stranger. And they told us stories of just, you know, someone smiling at them or giving them a little compliment or saying hello and just how much that meant to them and how they really felt that that was an act of kindness.

MG: You also wrote, though, that people are remarkably pessimistic about almost every aspect of talking to strangers. If this makes us feel better, if if there are some benefits to us in just having talking to somebody but just making eye contact, why don't we do this?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: I think we're just really nervous. I mean, I think it comes back to this sort of fundamental need that we have for belonging. And what that means is that it's really scary to consider the idea of not belonging. Right. And so I think when people think about talking to strangers, they think, well, what if the person doesn't want to talk to me? What if they reject me? And that's that's a really big fear that people have. You know what if what if I'm not included and valued and we'd really just have a hard time believing that these interactions go well, even right after having a positive interaction, people still worry about what the next one might be like. I think it's hard for us to generalise because we think, Oh well, maybe there was something special about that one person. Maybe it was a pleasant exception to the unpleasant rule. So we have a really hard time learning that in general if we do sort of get over our fears and have these little interactions that that it generally goes really well. And we we feel good, They. I feel good. It's a win win.

MG: How has the pandemic influenced that? In terms of what we haven't been able to do over the course of the last few years when it comes to social interactions?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: My big hope is that it's made people realise how much some of these relationships that we have that we don't notice really mean to us, you know, the relationships we have with that person at the coffee shop who remembers our order or the person that we see at the gym, like all these sort of people that we may not even we may not even know their names. We definitely don't know their contact information. So we couldn't keep in touch with them through the pandemic. But I think people have really, you know, missed all those nameless people that that populate our day to day. And I think we get such a hit of novelty from having those conversations. It's they're spontaneous. We don't know what to expect, which is both exciting and interesting. But also, I think part of what makes it scary sometimes is you just don't know what's going to happen.

MG: So how have you seen that in your own life? I mean, in talking with strangers, what has that done for you?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: Oh, gosh. I mean, it's been life changing for me. I sort of came to this really accidentally. I grew up with a dad who talked to strangers all the time. And I saw how much he enjoyed it and how much the people he talked to enjoyed it. But like, I'm an introvert, I just didn't feel like I had the skills or the ability to do that. I just didn't imagine that there would be so much joy and fun and and so much to learn from, from talking to random people. So it's it's really changed my life.

MG: Do you remember when it changed your life? I mean, do you remember a moment in which you interacted with somebody as an introvert and that that experience surprised you?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like anything in life, there's always a few things that sort of catalyse change. One interaction that I remember as sort of a game changer, I was actually on the subway in Toronto and, you know, like you can't avoid talking to strangers. But I hadn't ever sort of intentionally, you know, started a conversation with a stranger. And this lady was on the on the subway and she had this beautiful, like, decadent, gorgeous cupcake, you know, in a clear plastic container. And I just had to ask her about the cupcake. And so we started talking. And by the end of the conversation, she had taught me that people can ride ostriches. And so it was- like

MG: Just from that from the conversation that started with a cupcake to ostriches.

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: Conversations do that, though, right? That's that's one of the pleasures of them. You don't know where they're going to go. And sometimes they go weird and wonderful ways. And it was just such an unexpected joy to have that conversation. And I thought, Wow. Could could I do this any time, like talking to anybody?

MG: I mean, there are a number of reasons why people might not do this. One is you talk about, you know, riding the subway in Toronto and in many ways we've been conditioned you don't even make eye contact with people on the subway in a big city, let alone to talk to them, we might believe. But the other part is what you said about being an introvert, that people might be shy, they might that might not be in their nature. What would you say to people like yourself about about getting out of that comfort zone?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: I mean, it is a surprise to me that I'm sort of now someone who talks to strangers all the time because very, very truly, honestly, an introvert. But I think actually, sort of ironically, maybe or it seems that way, it's something that really suits introverts because, you know, what I don't like is being on the subway in Toronto and having all the noise and bustle, and it's kind of overwhelming to the senses. And so if I can just turn to the person beside me and have a11 on one conversation that feels safe and comfortable to me. So in a way, I sometimes use it as a as a coping mechanism. You know, if I'm in a at a party with a lot of people, like that's my least favourite thing to do. And if I can find someone who looks like they don't have someone to talk to, I can sort of work up my nerve and go talk to them. And then I don't have to worry so much about the, you know, overwhelming social situation that's happening all around me.

MG: And do you find generally that people are receptive? Again, we live in our own little worlds now, whether it's looking at our phones, reading a book, daydreaming, just kind of spaced out. Do you find that people generally are interested in being part of a conversation?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: I mean, yeah, I've, I've hardly ever had a situation where I've tried to start a conversation and have been completely shut down. It has happened on occasion. I remember once talking to someone on the tube in London. So similar like you, like you said, you don't make eye contact, let alone talk on the tube in London. But I do this research, so I figure I'd better walk the walk. Right. So I turn to the lady sitting on my right, and she, and she was polite. And so that's the thing. Like people will respond to you just because it's very impolite to not respond. Right. But it was clear that she just wasn't interested. She, like, plugged in her headphones, got out, her book, whatever. And so I just turned to the other side and said hello to the person on my left. And we had a really nice chat. So rejection actually happens a lot less often than people think. One study that I did where we had 1300 conversations between strangers, people were rejected approximately 10% of the time. So it's really quite rare. And I guess I also like to say to people like rejection does feel bad. And again, it comes back to that need to belong. It really triggers social rejection can trigger the same parts of our brain as physical pain. You know, it's really negative thing when we feel that we're being socially rejected.

MG: There's something in us that wants to be connected.

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: Yeah, it's so fundamental, but at the same time, being rejected by someone who doesn't know you doesn't need to feel so bad, right? Like they're not making a judgement about you. It's probably about them feeling anxious or, you know, just being busy or stressed or whatever. Right. Like it doesn't have to be about you. And so I think it's easier to deal with a rejection from someone you don't know rather than someone that you do know.

MG: All right. Let me slide another voice into this conversation that we're having. Pete Bombaci is the founder of the General Project. This is a human connection movement. It's based in Toronto. Pete is with me in studio. Pete, good morning to you.

PETE BOMBACI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What is a human connection movement?

PETE BOMBACI: Well, the human connection movement, the general project, has been around since 2016, working to educate, empower and catalyse Canadians about the importance of social connection to their overall well-being. Because most of us don't know this information even than listening to you and Gillian talk. You hear the facts about the health benefits, about the mood, benefits, about the positivity, happiness. Why wouldn't we want to do it? And even Gillian's last comment there, about 90% of the time it ends up in a positive experience. Well, geez, if I sold you that as a as a proposition, I think most people would say, hey, we should probably do this a little more often.

MG: You did a national survey looking at our social habits, our as Canadians social habits. What did you learn in that about who we are when it comes to speaking with people that we don't know and talking to strangers?

PETE BOMBACI: Yeah, interesting. There was two things that had to do with talking to strangers. Number one, 40% of Canadians either think they talk to strangers quite easily or they do it with a little bit of a positive attitude. The other one was those that spoke to strangers once a week were three times as happy as those who didn't speak to strangers.

MG: Why don't we? I mean, we are talking with Gillian about this a little bit. There's this whole idea. I mean, as a parent, you talk to your kids about stranger danger. There is this idea and we're sitting in Toronto of being in cold hearted places where perhaps people don't want to talk to each other. Why is it that you think we don't reach out to people we don't know?

PETE BOMBACI: And I think Gillian's doing incredible work that helps educate us? You know, to your point, Matt, for 50 years we've told people don't talk to strangers and we've bought into it and yet now we know the facts. And now people like Gillian are doing such great work to help us understand that these conversations, especially on the other side of a global pandemic, when these casual collisions were ripped from our lives. Gillian has another study from a past piece of research that shows over 50% of the people that were in our lives were casual collisions, not people we intended to see. And those are really what was ripped out of our lives because we weren't in our normal routines of getting around, going to the office, heading to the coffee shop, having lunch. And so why on the other side of the pandemic do we feel disconnected, a sense of a lack of belonging or loneliness? The reality is we need these social connections, as Gillian touched on. And so I think education is part one. And number two is permission. We have to give people permission to say it's okay to talk to strangers.

MG: What does that mean, give people permission?

PETE BOMBACI: Any type of activation that puts this on the front of people's minds along with the information in research, it says it's good for you. Most of the time it's going to end up in a positive experience. So they arm you with the tools and the information that make you go, Yeah, I should give this a shot because I could use a little more connection or belonging in my life. We all can right now coming out of the global pandemic and continuing these challenges with the different viruses that are out there. We feel disconnected. And I think right now more than ever, we need to bring these two people.

MG: Your group is looking not just at giving people permission, but at creating sort of national guidelines and practices around social health. You got a grant from the federal government. Who to help deal with this. What were those guidelines look like? What are we talking about here?

PETE BOMBACI: Yeah, I think really the guidelines are more the broader social health. So what are the social connections that can bring value to our life? So it's talking to neighbours, it's talking to strangers, it's talking to colleagues at the office. It could be classmates, it could be friends and family understanding the value of each of those. It could be about the impact we can have on marginalised communities because really telling the marginalised community that they need connection is part of it. But actually it's the rest of us who can be part of that solution. It's awakening people to this research behind multigenerational relationships and what they can do both for you as the individual and maybe for the senior. And so as we awaken Canadians to the importance of human connection to overall health and well-being, as we have to exercise and eating well for decades, maybe we can start putting this as a priority in our daily calendars like we do going to the gym and eating fruit and vegetables.

MG: So you would have I need to have three interactions per day with somebody that I don't know.

PETE BOMBACI: We're probably about three years away from the guidelines. We've done two years of the national study, the Korean Social Connection study. We have a couple more years. We're doing a landscape study around the globe of all the research on all of the different types of social connections and what they can do. And ultimately, Canadians within, you know, three years will have that set of guidelines. To your point, how many how many minutes a day, hours a day? Who with? You know, how many people makes a solid foundation? Is it? You know, most of the research points to 3 to 5 close friends is really crucial to your overall health and well-being in that sense of confidence and connection. So all of that will be packaged up so that Canadians, like we do with exercise and eating. Well, I know fruit and vegetables. I know five different areas of food. I know that I'm supposed to do 20 to 30 minutes of exercise. Now you're going to understand the importance of social health to your overall well-being as well.

MG: Gillian, what do you think the guidelines would do in terms of getting us to think differently about talking to strangers?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: I think it's a great idea just because I think people are just unaware of the importance of all these different relationships that we have. So, I mean, I think people know that close friends and family matter, but I think we somehow overlook the fact that all of these other relationships are super important as well. And, you know, just like we've been talking about food and exercise related things for decades, we have known since, you know, the seventies, at least, that this sort of broad social integration, having different groups that we belong to and different kinds of people that we interact with affects our physical health and actually makes us live longer. So it's just really, really crucial. And because we don't seem to be aware of it, I think having some recommendations and just sort of teaching people about all the different kinds of relationships that matter could be really helpful.

MG: Has anybody figured this out? I mean, there was a lot of attention given to the creation of, you know, the Department of Loneliness in various forms of government around the world to try and tackle isolation. Are there any jurisdictions that that are ahead of us here in terms of getting us to think differently about the value of those social interactions?

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: I mean, here we have a minister for loneliness in the UK, and I mean, I think loneliness is just so tricky. So there's lots of different people and places trying to figure it out. But it's like one of those things where we have this stereotype that it's the older adults who are lonely and that's not untrue. But also younger people are often loneliest. So it really does span the whole age range. There's all sorts of factors that we know contribute to loneliness. So yeah, there's just so many different ways to tackle it, including changing the built environment to allow us more spaces to interact with other people. So we can't just go to the shop and go through the automatic checkout and not be required to talk to someone. That feels like a good thing, but it's actually taking away, you know, this opportunity for a tiny little interaction that can make more of a difference than we think. So. Kind of went off topic with your question.

MG: But that's, but that's, but that's that's exactly it that when you you don't have the opportunity to talk to the cashier that we have to engineer. We've been designed to do it.

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: Yeah.

MG: Pete, who should we be following the lead of do you think. I mean, are there jurisdictions that are ahead of us on this?

PETE BOMBACI: Well, I think, you know, the UK and Japan also has a minister for loneliness. But there's I sit on the Global Initiative for Loneliness and Connection, which has roughly 16 countries that are involved in addressing this issue, including the US, the UK, Japan, Australia, Canada and several other smaller countries. The reality is this is not a Canadian issue, a UK issue, a Japanese issue. This is a global issue. A Dr. Vivek Murthy out of the U.S. has said this is the next major public health crisis. So what what these organisations are doing around the world is trying to raise the collective consciousness about the issue today before we wait until people are sick. And then we try to solve the problem because the solution to social health is not a medical one. It's one where the 8 billion people on the planet recognise the role that each of us can play in the lives of making each other happier, healthier, live longer and better society for everyone.

MG: So I end with a little quick piece of advice for somebody who who wants to be more socially engaged, interact with the people around them, and they, they think maybe they'll be, as Julian saying, maybe shut down, maybe get a strange look. What would you say to them, Pete?

PETE BOMBACI: Just try it. It is that simple. As as Gillian said, if over 90% of the time people respond in a positive, positive way, and most of us have been educated not to do it. My suggestion is just give it a shot and see how it goes.

MG: Gillian, is it that simple? I ask you as an introvert.

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: I think it is. I mean, I've tested different tips in my research studies, and that's the one that resonates the most with people is is just be brave and give it a try. Because I think I think people don't want to be the one who reaches out. People are happy to be the one that's reached out to, but they're a little more reluctant to be the one who does the reaching out. And I think we just have to be brave enough to you know, I'm telling you, there's lots of research done is backing it up. People are going to be more open than you think and they like you more than you think. There's research on that, too. So so you just have to be brave and give it a go.

MG: I'm glad to meet you both in this conversation. Thank you very much, Gillian.

GILLIAN SANDSTORM: Pleasure.

MG: And Pete, thanks so much.

PETE BOMBACI: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Gillian Sandstrom is a psychologist and senior lecturer at the Psychology of Kindness in the Psychology of Kindness, pardon me, at the University of Sussex. Pete Bombaci is the founder of the General Project in Toronto. Do you find yourself starting conversations while you wait in line at the grocery store, sitting on the bus on the way to work? Why do you talk to strangers? What would motivate you to talk to strangers? What have you learned from those conversations with strangers? Your stories of talking to strangers. Please email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. That's The Current for this Thursday. q's up next on CBC Radio One. Before we go, a moment for the guitar great Jeff Beck, British artist, stated yesterday he would be on Tuesday. He was 78 years old. The news came out yesterday and was greeted with shock because he influenced generations of guitarists. Was of course in the Yardbirds, went on to a career with the Jeff Beck group, with Rod Stewart. Dozens of other artists. Rod Stewart said that Jeff Beck was on another planet to take us out today. They are birds over, under, sideways, down. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Thursday January 12, 2023 Full Transcript

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