Anastasia: Baseball fans of a certain age, you are in for a romp down memory lane. Today we're pulling up a chair with Cito Gaston, the Blue Jays manager who delivered two back to back World Series titles and helped give Toronto the best attendance record in the league.

So we've got some 'back in the day' stories about George Bell, Tom Henke, Dave Winfield. Some legends for sure… but Cito? He also has an eye on the future. He has ideas about manoeuvring through lingering racism. He touches upon debated homerun records, performance enhancers and where he sees the game headed.

It's player's own voice. I'm Anastasia Bucsis.

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Mr. Gaston, thank you so much for joining me. It's great to see your face.

Cito Gaston: Thank you. It's nice to be here.

Anastasia: What do you do when you come to Toronto? Like, what's the first thing that you do when you come back here?

Cito Gaston: I go to my favourite restaurants.

Anastasia: What are a few of your favourites?

Cito Gaston: Well, you know what? There's a lot. My wife and I, we eat all kinds of food. We might go, might go get Indian food, I go to the keg a lot because they take care of me. I got a little spot in the back. They, they help me up there. And I go to Queen Mother. There's a great little fish place right across from the market…?

Anastasia: St Lawrence.

Cito Gaston: St Lawrence market. Yeah. And a lot of little spots that I go to and then we walk a lot too. I like to walk here. It's a beautiful city.

Anastasia: Right down by the lake.

Cito Gaston: Along the lake. And then sometimes I make it uptown.

Anastasia: I'm uptown, Yeah. How often do you have to pay for your own meals? I hope Torontonians pick up the tab.

Cito Gaston: No, I pay for meals quite a bit.

Anastasia: You got to come out for dinner with me.

Cito Gaston: Oh, that'll be great.

Anastasia: There's a mural of you, actually, right by my house. Do you ever think about your legacy in this city and honestly, this country?

Cito Gaston: Well, you know what? I the older I get, the more I start to think about it. I think that it's been a great, great place to live. I lived here for 20 years at one time, all year round. I think the people are outstanding. They're just great people and they've always treated me well here. Great, not just well.

And you know, I'm starting to think about those things now that, you know how lucky I was to come to the city. I started here as a hitting coach, end up being the manager and then came back and worked a little bit with the front office. So it's been a great, great place for me to live and raise kids, too.

Anastasia: You're an honorary Canadian.

Sound Up [crowd cheers announcer says:]he Toronto Blue Jays are baseball's best in 1992.

Anastasia: 30 years. Since 92. Right. What's the first emotion that you feel when you hear that?

Cito Gaston: I feel pride. Pride and a lot of good friends. A lot of guys that I still talk with and we still text each other once in a while and, you know, we made a lot of friendships along the way, which is tough for managers because usually players don't continue to be friends with a manager because it's like: I don't know if you want to go out with your boss every night?

Don't say a word. No one gets in trouble.

But anyway, they were really good to me. I mean, I still see Devo and I still see talk to Rance, even back as far as George Bell. It was George's birthday a couple of days ago and we were speaking to each other. So it's a lot of great memories of all the guys I've had here. And just the city …the city is a great city to live in.

Anastasia: What do you think the glue has been to maintain those relationships?

Cito Gaston: I think because I treated them in the way that they wanted to be treated and respect. And I also did demand respect. But you get respect when you give respect. And I think that's been the glue.

And also we won a couple of World Series, too. That didn't hurt at all either.

Anastasia: Yeah, that probably helped a little bit. Hank Aaron. He was your roommate. And he was a driving force in convincing you to become a coach.

Cito Gaston: So true.

Anastasia: How did he convince you? Like, what did he say?

Cito Gaston: Well, you know, Hank and I roomed together my first year. You know, they bring guys up at the end of the season, and I was one of the guys they brought up, and they put me in a room with my idol. Can you believe that? I cannot believe that! Growing up, that was my guy.

Anastasia: Could you fall asleep the first night?

Cito Gaston: Oh, no, no. And I was a little bit afraid in the room too. And then, you know, we roomed together next two springs. Hank taught me how to tie a tie.

Anastasia: What kind of tie? Windsor?

Cito Gaston: Windsor?

Anastasia: Yeah, that's what my dad. I don't wear a tie, of course, but.

Cito Gaston: Well, I try not to anymore, but I do have a lot of them. But anyway, Hank was one of those guys that he became farm director for the Atlanta Braves. And when my career was over, he called me three times. And the first two times I said, No, I don't think I want to get back in the game. And he always said, you know, Cito come and work with me. He never said, Work for me. Come and work with me.

And I got to know a guy named Eddie Haas and Juan ( last name unclear) and we had Brian Snitker, who's the manager of the Atlanta Braves, him and I were roommates. I introduced him to his wife and we're still friends, so that's okay. That's just a little joke.

He's quite happy with his wife, and I don't think a lot of people know this. His son is the hitting coach for Dusty Baker, So it's kind of a big family there. Yeah.

Anastasia: Yeah, That's amazing. You said Hank had taught you a lot about life.

Cito Gaston: Yeah, he did.

Anastasia: What else did he teaching aside from how to tie a tie?

Cito Gaston: Well, he taught me to stand on your own two feet. He also taught me that whatever you do today, don't bring it back tomorrow. And you know what you do if you have a bad day, you think about what you did and try to improve the next day up. You have a great day, enjoy it and move on. You can't live in the past. And he's a great example of that. You know, he just kept moving along and a very proud man, but a very quiet man, too.

And, you know, we used to go out to dinner. He didn't pay for my dinners all the time. And I always tell the story back then. We used to get paid $25 a week. And that was the pay,you'd tip a quarter in the morning for practice, spend $0.50 a night for dinner and pay for the phone, your phone call, local calls. Well, I always come up about $10 a week because Hank would make a lot of phone calls and we split them. But I wasn't about to say anything to him because he let me use his car. And plus, he was a good teacher for me.

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Anastasia: His name has been in the news. Aaron Judge. Barry Bonds. Care to weigh in on that debate?

Cito Gaston: Well, you know, I know what they're talking about. And, you know, I seen Bonds play too. I played against his dad for ten years or so. And the one thing that he could do, he could steal second base without even sliding. And he was probably one of the fastest guys ever seen. And I went to Japan and I've seen Barry play. And he's the closest thing I seen to being a hitter like Hank Aaron. Whether he had help, I'm not sure.

And I think once they you know I know they talk about the home runs, you know, and I don't think you're ever going to change that. I mean, I do think somewhere down the line here, they're going to find some good use for that stuff, that's going to be fair to everyone, you know, because it does heal people quicker. They can play a little bit longer. They stayed younger, longer. And I know there's some bad side effects to it, too. So but it's very interesting. Are they're all champs to me. All them homerun champs for me and great players. Yeah.

Anastasia: Is Hank Aaron the greatest hitter you've ever seen?

Cito Gaston: Yeah, he is. And that's, that's, that's putting Barry right there with him. Real close. Real close.

Anastasia: Back in the late eighties, early nineties, we didn't talk about culture as much as we do now. Right now it's almost like a buzz word, right? But when you stepped on board something real changed. What culture changes did you feel, like you oversaw at your time with the Blue Jays?

Cito Gaston: Well, you know, I think they started to get more black coaches, more black managers. I think it's slacked off a little bit. But still there, Dusty is.representing the only African-American in baseball right now as far as there's no players there. Yeah, but he is the manager there. I think that changed, too.

I can go back and remember that Al Campanis said that white guys weren't good managers, good coaches. They couldn't even swim. Well, so I used to tell them I can swim, you know, so that you take it from there. But I, I think that we need to have more in the front office, more people out… the coaches. There's a lot of coaching staffs, they don't have one black guy on the coaching staff. So I think they need some adjustment with that.

I think they need to open some academies here like they do in Latin American countries and even here in Canada, which I know there's one here, but I'd like to see them be funded through Major League Baseball and get some more kids out playing.

Anastasia: Well, this World Series, there's no black American players. Why do you think that is?

Cito Gaston: Well, you know, I think they are, like I said, earlier I think there's more scouts down in in Latin America where they have they have all these teams, pretty much… Dominican for sure. They all have camps down there. And the only place they probably don't any more is probably Venezuela, which is a shame. But Puerto Rico, they have. And here in the States, they say they got something going on.

I just can't believe that all African-American or black kids can play football or play basketball. First of all, a lot of them are not fast enough to play football and a lot of them are not tall enough to play basketball. So I think they just need to go out and and make them a little bit more comfortable and trying to get them back in the game. There's some great. African-American players that play this game and there's some more to be found out there to play it again. Yeah.

Anastasia: Do you feel like you got the respect you deserved?

Cito Gaston: Well, you know, the only thing I think as I get older, I get a little bit more respect. Someone says, when you going to go in the Hall of Fame? I say probably when I'm dead. So what I'm gonna do is I'm a sign a whole bunch of things for my wife, so they'll be worth some money when I leave. Joking..

But, you know, the one thing I don't think I ever gotten respect for, I never got Manager of the Year. And that bothers me sometimes. And I go back and when I took this team over we were 12 and 24 and we won. We won. We came back and won our division. The year we beat Oakland out and went on to the World Series in 92 and won it. And La Russa got manager of the year! And La Russa's a friend. I'm not dumping on him or anything like that because he could not vote.

You know you can imagine how great a player Hank Aaron was, he only got player of the year one time. You know? He got this he got the award one time in his lifetime. So you know to me they need to change something here. As far as voting. I think some of the players this that's on that committee, they need to start voting for something.

Why is Fred McGriff not in the Hall of Fame. He's got 494 home runs and he's not in the Hall of Fame? So there's something wrong with the system.

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Anastasia: How do you as a coach or manager, unite so many people from different backgrounds, different walks of life, different countries, ethnicities, creeds, experiences and have them thrive for 162 games?

Cito Gaston: Well, you know, it's funny. I go back to, you know, the way I was raised and the things that I had to do. As far as, I played on the team in Batavia, New York. But when I first got there, we had seven, seven black guys on the team, and in one week I only had myself there. I even got to like music that I'd never heard before, you know, even got to go and play in Latin America, got to play in Venezuela, got to learn how to speak Spanish. And I think because all my connections with all these different types of people and of course, living in Toronto, you know how it is here? In Toronto there's all kinds of people here.

And so I think along we also learned that you give guys respect if they give it back, if they don't, you still give it. And I think they respect you and that's what you want to… that's what you want to do, and you get the best out of your…. I think the first thing you do as a manager, you try to find out what makes guys tick. And once you can find that out, then you're going to be a better manager, going to be able to connect with people and talk to people.

I mean, there's some guys you're kicking them in the butt, but there's some guys you pat on the back and when you can learn that quick as possible and then you can be you will be successful in what you're doing.

Anastasia: How do you learn that, though?

Cito Gaston: You know, I think you learn it by different people. You know, Hank Aaron taught me some things. Preston Gomez was my first full time big league manager. Preston was tough, but fair. And I learned just listening and, you know, knowing how they feel, you know, I know how it feels to make an error in the outfield and at a crucial time. I know how it feels to strike out with the bases loaded. So you have sympathy for guys and things like that.

Believe it or not, I was a pitcher too, so I know about that too. I know when, you know mistakes come. I know I pitched one year as a kid and I had not given up a home run all year, but there was one guy I was always a little bit shaky on. And the last day of the season. He hit a home run off me. And that taught me, you can't think that way. Yeah, you have to think positive, you know.

Anastasia: The MLB likes to tinker with the rules, right? I would argue a little bit more than the other big three Moneyball, stats stats stats, right. Do you think the game is better today or was it better 30 years ago?

Cito Gaston: Well, I probably get a lot of trouble saying that, but.

Anastasia: I'm not trying to get you in trouble.

Cito Gaston: No, no, I know you're not. You're too sweet for that. But anyway, I think that the new rules coming along, I think it's going to be better for the game. Only because I think that last two World Series well, two before last year, I think they were quite boring myself, because we don't hit and run anymore. We don't steal bases anymore.

And the only thing I don't understand is why can't you hit the ball the other way? And now they're going to pullit and get rid of the shifts and things like that. So now we can have some running on the bases, we can have some more base hits. I think it's nice to see a no hitter once in a while or one hitter or a shutout once in a while. But I don't think people go to a ball game to see that. They go to see action. People stealing bases and then running.

I mean, the two teams I took to the World Series…or they took me to the World Series, The team I managed the first year is the most fun I ever had as Manager. Because we could manufacture runs, if we were down one run or two runs in the eighth inning, seventh inning, we could score. We're going to get those runs. That was a lot of fun doing that.

And now the other teams, they were are great teams. 92 is probably the best team I ever managed. But the second team, I don't know if anyone knows it. We changed 14 guys and we only carry 25, so we brought in 14 different guys who wanted to win, along with the other 11. Not saying that the guys left didn't want to win, they wanted to stay. We just couldn't afford to keep them, I guess.

But it was a great run for us. We had a good time and you know, I hope that this team is on the way back. They seem like they get a little bit better every year. I just hope they can keep them all.

Anastasia: Yeah. When? Oh, gosh, when the Jays are doing well. Think this is a real baseball city. And I think people think it's a hockey city. But what was it like back in the early nineties to be in the epicentre of baseball?

Cito Gaston: It was great. To walk out to that dugout every night and that was, you know, just standing room only. And I used to tease the coaches all the time. I used to say, Man, look at this place, it's packed. Full on.

Anastasia: Toronto Led the league in ticket sales!

Cito Gaston: We did. And my other line would be that we can't get a raise. I was joking. I said, we can't get a raise, but I was joking. It's all good.

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Anastasia: Who were some of the really genuine leaders in the clubhouse?

Cito Gaston: Oh, man, I had some. Dave Winfield was actually the judge. We used to have kangaroo court. He had the whole attire, hat, the gavel, everything. And Jack Morris? The only pitcher that I ever had on my team, or I've been around that did not like golf. He did not like golf.

Anastasia: You do. You like golf?

Cito Gaston: I love golf.

Anastasia: Oh, you live in Florida now. What's what's your handicap?

Cito Gaston: Oh, boy. I'm still around 18.

Anastasia: I'm around 80.

Cito Gaston: Are you? I think I was when I was young. I was about ten. But, you know, the ball's getting shorter all the time.

Anastasia: Yeah.

Cito Gaston: But Jack was one. And of course, Jack was in charge of the pitchers when the…. If you guys don't know this, the dugouts were really small. And I used to tell the pitchers that they could watch the game inside as long as they were watching the game and not golf. And Jack would make sure they were watching the game.

Dave was a big leader. Joe Carter, Paul Molitor in his own way. We had a lot of leaders on that team. But the biggest thing, we had a lot of winners, guys that wanted to win.

Anastasia: Can I play a little like Game with you? A little word association game, I suppose, or character associations? Tell me a little bit about how they were as just human beings. George Bell.

Cito Gaston: George? I was speaking to George two days ago, his birthday. George is a winner and George would die with you if you treat him in the right way and you treat him with respect. He gave you respect. Now, if he doesn't like you, he will let you know it too.

Anastasia: I enjoy that. I respect that more. Tom Henke?

Cito Gaston: Just a great, man. Great guy. Tom is one of the one of the nicest people in the world that you're going to meet and a great, great competitor. Great guy.

Anastasia: Tony Fernandes

Cito Gaston: Oh, just, I think the world, Tony, God bless him, he's gone. Tony's one of those guys that I never swore in front of Tony, because he was that religious and he was that I had that much respect for him.

Anastasia: Rickey Henderson.

Cito Gaston: Oh, I wish I'd had him more. Wish I had him longer. Ricky was a fun guy, you know, he walked through the dugout and shaking his bats and talking to them. And and Darnell Coles used to come to ask – Skip? you want me to translate for you. I said, Please. But Rick was a great guy. I tell you a story about Ricky. Ricky, was doing some sort of an interview about stealing bases. And he was on second base. He had a big lead, and the guy that was interviewing him said, Well Ricky, you got a big lead. What about the second baseman? The shortstop? Ricky looked up and said to him "They don't have the ball."

Anastasia: Rance Mulliniks

Cito Gaston: Oh, Rance is one of my favourites too. We still talk to each other. See? He is of the old school. He's old school. This old school guy loves to talk baseball. And if you're around, Rance, you might not get too many words in. But he's. He's all great. He's great guy.

Anastasia: And Joe Carter?

Cito Gaston: Joe, I can't say enough, but, Joe, you know, Joe's one of those guys that wants to win. I think sometimes he gets embarrassed when I tell the story because every year I go to his golf tournament, they have me tell the same story. But Joe is one of those guys who suffered a little bit from migraine headaches, and he'd come in and say, Skip, have you put up the Line-Up? I'd say, No. He says, I got a little bit of a headache. Just give me some time. He'd go on the sidelines, stay there hour or so. Always played. Not one time he didn't play. And he, Joe was like Michael Jordan.

He would not let his kids win a checkers game from him. A competitor of all competitors.

Anastasia: Yeah. Were you that competitive?

Cito Gaston: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't like to lose.

Anastasia: Oh, I don't. I hate to lose.

Cito Gaston: I hateTo lose.

Anastasia: Yeah, I hate to lose much more than I like to win. But I like. Yeah, that really motivated me. I hated to lose.

Cito Gaston: Well, anybody can lose.

Anastasia: Yeah. Yeah. You are a players coach. Any advice for John Schneider?

Cito Gaston: You know what? I like to think I was a player's coach, and I'd like to believe that I was, but I can't say that too often. But I am a player's coach. I think, John, knows those kids, he had them in Double-A. I believe they won a championship together.

I think he's going to do quite well with those guys and just let them play John, let them play. You know, the cream will come to the top. Some guys, some managers get too involved and saying that they won the game because they did this, they did that. You know, you can't ask the guy to hit and run If he can't hit and run, you can't ask the guy to bunt if he cannot bunt, you know, just let them play. And like I said, the cream will come to the top.

Anastasia: Do you have any advice for the current generation of Jays fans?

Cito Gaston: Oh, just be patient. I think next year or the next year... But the biggest thing is keep these guys together if we can. If we can keep them together, we've got a great chance because we're so close, you know?

But I think the Jays fan keeps supporting us. Keep supporting the team. They're not going to let you down. They're going to get better as they get older. They're going to get more experience and they're going to know what to do and what not to do.

Anastasia: There's like really pure joy right now, Like even just watching vladdy.. Yeah. You can't watch it without a smile.

ito Gaston: No, he has a great time playing. Yeah. And that's hard to do in this game, you know, because, you know, when your playing as a you know, a high schooler, you play in college and it gets to be a little bit more serious when you playing for a living or you playing to keep your job. And vlad he has a great time, out there playing and he's so happy. I enjoy watching him play and watch what he's watching, the things he's doing. All the guys seem like to be great friends on the team. They all like each other and that's a big part of winning.

Anastasia: We are at a Conference for Coaches Association of Ontario. So you're coaching coaches, what is your number one piece of advice for folks that want to get into coaching?

Cito Gaston: I would encourage them to do it because there's too many that don't want to do that. We don't have enough guys coaching and that's quite a job too. It's quite a job because not only are you dealing with the kids, you're dealing with their parents.

Anastasia: Oh gosh, yeah.

Cito Gaston: So that's kind of tough some time. But I would say come out and you know, I know some people don't have a lot of time to do those sort of things. But if you can do that, I'll tell you, you will enjoy it and you will have a great time and you see some kids move on and be successful. And that's all its about. And let them have a good time to let them play and have a great time.

Anastasia: Did you enjoy playing or coaching more?

Cito Gaston: You know what? I think a little bit of both. I enjoyed playing, but I also enjoyed coaching too. And the funny thing is, they just about had to break my arm to make me take this job as a manager. And once I could manage, I came back as the coach. You know what? I kind of like managing better.

Anastasia: Oh, thank you so much for taking the time.

Cito Gaston: My pleasure. Yeah.

Anastasia: Thank you for your time. And you are welcome in Toronto. Any time I will take you out for dinner, my friend.

Cito Gaston: I'll remember that.

Anastasia: Thank you.

Cito Gaston connected with me while he was in town for a coaches conference in Mississauga. Players on Voice podcast is a CBC sports production.

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You know where I'm at. My handle is Anastasia. Olivia Pascquarelli edits our audio. Adam Blinov wrote our theme music. David Giddens is our producer. Love you, David. Thanks for listening.