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The Current Transcript for December 27, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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They're losing sleep. They don't want to eat because they're in the middle of the games. And this is a growing problem.

PAUL HUNTER: It's no secret that video games can be addictive. But now a group of parents is taking one game maker to court in an effort to hold companies accountable for their products. The fight over Fortnite. That's in 30 minutes. Then.

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It's like your soul is in the land. There's no separation. Environmentally, it's. I see the potential for this piece of land to be completely destroyed for absolutely nothing.

PH: The small community of Canso, Nova Scotia, is set to become the site of a new space Port Canada's first. But not everyone in the fishing village is over the moon, with the prospect of rockets taking off overhead. That's in an hour. But we begin in China where COVID is surging. Good morning. I'm Paul Hunter, in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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COVID-19 surge in China

Guest: Jennifer Bouey, James Griffiths, Dr. Isaac Bogoch

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Our focus will be increasingly science based and targeted. We should firmly correct oversimplification or a one size fits all approach and avoid taking excessive policy steps.

PH: China's Health Commission spokesperson announcing the end of China's Zero-Covid policy. That was on December 7th. Today, videos and photos show funeral homes and hospitals in the country overwhelmed and the World Health Organisation is worried.

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W.H.O. is very concerned over the evolving situation in China with increasing reports of severe disease in order to make a comprehensive risk assessment of the situation on the ground. W.H.O. needs more detailed information on disease severity, hospital admissions and requirements for ICU support.

PH: James Griffiths is Asia correspondent at the Globe and Mail. He is in Hong Kong. James, hello.

JAMES GRIFFITHS: Hi. Thanks for having me.

PH: We heard there the W.H.O. director general saying the organisation needs transparency from China. How much is the Chinese government reporting right now?

JAMES GRIFFITHS: Not very much. They've essentially given up trying to report accurate numbers. There was already little accuracy coming out soon as the the restrictions were dropped and we start to see these cases spike nationwide. That was just a, you know, really, really obvious discrepancy almost immediately between what people were saying on the ground and the actual cases. So, you know, there was a point earlier this week when there was something like supposedly 3000 cases in the whole country. And yet, you know, everyone in Beijing knows someone who is sick. You know, you could probably quite easily get to 3000 just just by looking online. You know, in one city. And now we've had the National Health Commission come out and say, actually, we're not we're not going to keep these figures at all. They changed how they categorise what counts as a COVID death. So there isn't going to be any accuracy going forward. And it also looks like there isn't really a way for the government to keep track of this outbreak. It's moving so fast.

PH: Going back to the beginning of December. How did people react then? You know, at the end of China's zero-covid policy.

JAMES GRIFFITHS: Think a lot of people were very glad to see the back of this. You know, it's been three pretty rough years in China. It's been very difficult, especially in the last year. The lockdowns have really bit you know, we saw that with the protest in November. And people have really suffered, especially in cities like Shanghai, which had prolonged, really stringent lockdowns. And so people were glad to see the back of that. But people were also, you know, shocked and, you know, taken aback because while people wanted to see Zero-Covid go away, they wanted relaxation of the policies and they wanted a roadmap out of the pandemic restrictions. They didn't expect it all to happen so immediately, especially in the middle of winter, when cases were already spiking, especially ahead of Chinese New Year, when, you know, everyone travels around the country. So it's you know, people are kind of shell shocked.

PH: Yeah. So what's the view now? Is it, you know, are people gobsmacked still or are they worried about, you know, where things are going?

JAMES GRIFFITHS: Yeah. I think concern really is starting to creep in, you know, that that the initial shell shock and gobsmacked like you said that switched a bit enthusiasm especially with the borders opening. But now people are starting to see the news of, you know, the hospitals already struggling. There's been runs on medication all over the country. We're starting to see even medication shortages here in Hong Kong as stuff gets shipped across the border. And, you know, people starting to get worried and not so much a concern about catching the virus. People have either caught it already or come to terms with the fact that they will. But you know what happens if I am hospitalised, if I am, you know, in the minority that has that has a severe case and has to go to a hospital, there is, you know, overwhelmed, especially in kind of more rural, less developed parts of the country where the health care system is not particularly developed and does struggle.

PH: And now, you know, the latest change, I guess, is a word. After all this time, China will end quarantine for incoming travellers starting January 8th. What can you tell us about that?

JAMES GRIFFITHS: Yeah, so this, you know, this is the kind of final domino in Zero-Covid going away. China has been since very, very early on in the pandemic has been closed off to the rest of the world. You know, basically once China got its own domestic outbreak under control, it shut the borders to make sure that no cases could come in. And that was a very successful system. You know, they really did keep COVID out for the best part of almost two years. And so to see this go away is remarkable. You know, even when Hong Kong lifted its own border restrictions earlier this year, you know, there was no concept that China might do that until, you know, I remember people were talking about kind of mid to even late 2023. You know, this is a country that has cancelled multiple events that were due to happen next year because the assumption was that the COVID restrictions would be there and the, you know, quarantine restrictions would be there. So to see China opening up is remarkable and is exciting for Chinese people because it means they can finally travel. Whether an awful lot of people want to travel to China at the moment as it, you know, becomes, you know, basically the epicentre of COVID around the world again remains to be seen.

PH: And what's the deal now for people who do test positive? What is the directive from the government on that now?

JAMES GRIFFITHS: Again, yeah, this is kind of completely flipped on a dime as well that, you know, this used to be a country where you got sent to a centralised quarantine system. You could potentially spend weeks stuck in a hospital or a quarantine camp waiting to test negative. And now we've basically got unless you're really, really, really sick, just stay home and look after yourself. The priorities completely switched to, you know, personal responsibility. A lot of people are testing, you know, on home rapid tests and they're not even reporting them to the government. And even if you have some kind of PCR test through a centralised system, the advice Germany has to stay at home.

PH: And does life look normal? You know, are people working using transit, you know, hanging out with each other? What is life look like now in China?

JAMES GRIFFITHS: It should look normal, I think is the way is the way to answer that. It should look normal because people are allowed to do everything. Again, you know, people are allowed to take transport. They're allowed to, you know, go to their offices, you go to restaurants, things like that, without, you know, the stringent testing that was required before. But the problem is, especially in cities like Beijing, Shanghai, you know, forensic evidence at home, you know, there have been huge labour shortages, loads of photos of people just showing, you know, almost empty subway trains, empty, you know, senses of the city abandoned. You know, it's remarkable. Yeah. We previously had lockdowns that were caused by restrictions, and now we have de facto lockdowns because everyone's at home isolating.

PH: And all these images of hospitals, overcrowded and funeral homes and what's what's the government saying to people about that?

JAMES GRIFFITHS: I mean, you know, that's where the discrepancy between the official figures and what's happening on the ground really, really, you know, is pronounced. And I think it is causing quite a lot of distress for people and anger because you kind of have the government saying, oh, things aren't so bad. You know, the National Health Commission said said on Monday over 90% of ongoing cases are mild or asymptomatic. And yet you're saying these hospitals and find some of those cases might be relatively minor, but those people are still, you know, feeling bad enough that they've taken themselves to a hospital. And some of those people definitely won't be minor cases. They'll be severe cases. And you know what's going to happen to them. From my perspective, you know, I think it reminds me most and quite distressingly is the situation we had in Hong Kong when our zero-covid policy failed and on the ground ran through Hong Kong and, you know, caused, you know, genuine mass death. We had body bags in in the aisles of hospital wings, things like that. And, you know, it was a real disaster. And it's just very depressing. And, you know, sad to see the same thing seems to be playing out in China, even though they had all all the time in all the warning to make sure it didn't.

PH: And just quickly, you mentioned Hong Kong, where you are. How how are things there?

JAMES GRIFFITHS: Hong Kong is relatively normal. You know, we'd open the borders. COVID is completely endemic now. It's the same as in Canada. You know, the concern here is that with China opening the border and with these cases spreading wildly through China, is that we'll get another wave, you know, from kind of January, early January, that those cases will really start to start to come across the border. And, you know, the real concern for all of China's neighbours, Hong Kong and included also Japan, India, which is starting to introduce new restrictions, is that we'll see a new variant pop up in China because there's so many people that have been exposed before that maybe the virus will mutate again. And then that might be, you know, we're going to get used to Omnicom being seen as a relatively minor version of COVID. Well, what if the next one that pops up from China is not so minor and that, you know, could really lead to trouble around the region?

PH: James, thank you.

JAMES GRIFFITHS: Thank you.

PH: James Griffiths is Asia correspondent at the Globe and Mail. He is in Hong Kong. The wave of COVID infections now hitting China is being watched closely by health experts around the world. Dr. Isaac Bogoch is Infections Diseases specialist at Toronto General Hospital. Hello, Dr. Bogoch.

DR. ISAAC BOGOSH: Hi. Good morning, Paul.

PH: Good morning. How would you describe the Chinese government's current new strategy on fighting COVID?

DR. ISAAC BOGOSH: Well, I think it's it's rather worrisome. I mean, we've seen some of the images coming out of the country. And as we just heard, we know that hospital systems and health care systems are getting stretched pretty quickly. And we also know about how significantly this virus can impact population. So it's never a good idea to underplay this virus. We've seen how devastating it can be. We've seen how it can rip through various populations, especially populations that have little in the way of what we would call hybrid immunity. And, you know, I think it might. Rather than ignore the virus, it would probably be a good idea to at least give people tools and tips and strategies and support to combat this. And, you know, even though there's no zero-covid strategy, there still can be public health measures in place to perhaps take the edge off the wave and at least help preserve some of the integrity of the health care system.

PH: How bad do you think this COVID surge could get?

DR. ISAAC BOGOSH: It's really tough to tell because we haven't seen the same degree of transparency in data sharing from from the country. And, you know, you heard just a minute ago why that's the case. And we've also heard from others that it's extremely challenging getting reliable data. But we've seen this play out before on a smaller scale. So, for example, several months ago, Hong Kong had a very large COVID wave. There are some similarities to this one. And in the rest of the country, essentially, there were some under-vaccinated communities in Hong Kong we saw, especially the older population was under-vaccinated and didn't have the same degree of booster vaccines at the time. And for a period of time, Hong Kong had the highest death rate on the planet. I mean, they just had an awful, awful, awful wave. And we've heard that things have returned to normal. But you can mitigate the impact of a wave through vaccination, especially ensuring that older cohorts have been vaccinated, have good uptake of the vaccine and have booster vaccines. That will go a long way because we know from every country that's shared data all over the world that age is probably the single biggest risk factor for severe infections, such as hospitalisation and death. And it's obviously important to look after every single person and every area, everyone from age 0 to 100. But it's extremely important to have public health programmes that lower the barriers to vaccination for those who are most vulnerable and ensure that you have high vaccine uptake in that group. And based on the limited data we've seen from the country, there doesn't appear to be the same degree of booster vaccine uptake in that group. So sadly, this is going to result in significant loss of life. It's just it's challenging to quantify how significant it will be. But we've already seen images suggesting that this process has started.

PH: You know, in the last two, two and a half years. You know what? We've all become kind of lay experts in this kind of thing. And over that time, we've heard a lot about mutations and how COVID mutates. Is that a concern this time? How concerned are you about the virus mutating here and now as it's playing out in China?

DR. ISAAC BOGOSH: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so concern number one by far is the health and well-being of the people of China. Absolutely. But the second concern, though, is, of course, we now have 1.4 billion more people on the planet where the virus can possibly infect and reinfect. And sure, there's just it's a numbers game. There's more opportunities for the virus to transmit, to mutate. There's more, sadly immunocompromised hosts where we know the virus can replicate longer and has a greater probability of mutating it on the planet. So sure. Yeah, of course we can we can certainly see more mutations and variants emerge. And I think the other key point to, as everyone who's now an expert epidemiologist, is we know that human mobility drives the spread of these infections globally. And what happens on one part of the planet can quickly emerge on another side of the planet in as little as 24 hours. So it's very, very challenging to keep those variants at bay. I mean, here in Canada, we've well, it's tried unsuccessfully several times. And again, we've known this long before COVID, how infections spread around the world through human mobility. But we had a feeble attempt at keeping the alpha variant out of Canada with some, you know, performative travel measures against the United Kingdom when that variant emerged. Then with India, with the Delta variant than with South Africa in some areas, in Africa with the Omicron variant. You're not going to stop these variants from spreading all over the world regardless of where they emerge, be it China or anywhere else, but having 1.4 billion more individuals on the planet who have the opportunity to get infected. I mean, it certainly does increase the probability that more of these mutations will occur and variants will emerge.

PH: Gosh, you know, I just I feel like saying we've seen this movie before, but we've seen it multiple times before, which I guess gets me to the the big question is, should we in the West be worried? I mean, how closely should we be paying attention to what's happening right now in China?

DR. ISAAC BOGOSH: I'd follow it very closely. My main concern really, though, is health and well-being of our friends and neighbours all over the world. And, you know, well, we may not agree with the policies of the Chinese government. We just don't want to see anybody suffer. But but I think the other, for lack of a better word, silver lining, is that we're still in the Macron era. And it's been a year, just over a year of of Omicron on the planet. It doesn't mean Macron is going to be the last variant, but the first Macron wave that was really pummelling us this time last year has subsided in the sense that that initial wave was a PR one, something. It was awful. Just awful. But following that, yes, of course, we've had subsequent waves of various sub lineages of the Macron variant being to be a five. There's other sub lineages around, and each one of those subsequent waves has not been as devastating compared to the initial P1 wave. Having said that, said another way. In Canada, for example, we've we've been vaccinated. The vast majority of people have had at least two doses of the vaccine. Many people have had a booster or a subsequent booster. And in addition to that, many people, in fact, the vast majority of people have been infected and recovered from infection. We have what we would call a very significant degree of hybrid immunity and community level protection. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it has shielded us from more devastating impacts of the virus throughout the last year. Following the bay one wave again covid's not over. COVID is still a problem, but we just haven't seen a wave nearly as significant as the we had this time last year. And I'd remind people that the vaccines, regardless of the vaccines, they still do a remarkable job in standing up against significant illness, such as hospitalisation and death. And we've seen that with the original virus that emerged from Wuhan. We've seen it with the alpha variant, the Delta variant, the Omicron variant, every sub lineage of the American variant. These vaccines continue to protect us, including vulnerable populations from more severe manifestations of the virus. So no, of course we don't want mutations, we don't want new variants to emerge. But regardless of the variant, the vaccines have kept us safe. Of course, we've lost some of their protective benefit from infection and onward transmission. It still does a little bit, but not nearly as much as it did in the beginning. But again, I know I sound like a broken record, but it's an extremely important point. Regardless of the variant, the vaccines have stood up and in terms of protecting us against these severe manifestations such as hospitalisations and deaths. And that's a very positive thing.

PH: Very happy to say that I've had five shots in total. Myself now so it's a good message to remind people that that stuff works. We only have about a minute left. Dr. Bogosh, I know you don't. Domestic Chinese policy isn't your area of expertise, but do you see any circumstance in which China brings back Zero-Covid? We've just got a few seconds left.

DR. ISAAC BOGOSH: No, there's no way you're going to put the genie back in the bottle. I think from a policy standpoint, from an effectiveness of keeping the virus at bay standpoint. And my guess and as you point out, I'm not I'm definitely not an expert at it domestic policy in China. But I think it would be very challenging to to bring those measures back. I think you can bring some measures back to at least kerb transmission, asking in indoor settings, improving ventilation, lowering barriers to vaccination. But I don't think you can go back to a zero-covid policy at this point.

PH: I know we've reached you on the way to work. Very much appreciate you taking the time to speak with us this morning on this. I suspect we ain't seen the end of this and we'll talk to you again at some point.

DR. ISAAC BOGOSH: Have a wonderful day. Nice to chat.

PH: Thank you. Likewise. Dr. Isaac Bogoch is an infectious diseases specialist at Toronto General Hospital. The CBC News is next. Then.

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We're getting calls consistently from parents saying, my child's playing these video games. Can't get off the systems. They've become addictive.

PH: Sound familiar? A group of parents in Quebec is suing the company that makes the wildly popular video game Fortnite. They argue it's addictive. I'm Paul Harper and you're listening to The Current. We're back in six minutes.

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Quebec parents sue over kids’ alleged Fortnite addiction

Guests: Jeffery Derevensky, Cam Adair, Christopher Ferguson

PH: Hello, I'm Paul Hunter and you're listening to The Current.

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PH: Still to come, the new space race is coming to Nova Scotia, but not everyone is over the moon about it. But first, parents taking on Fortnite.

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PH: Fortnite is one of the most popular video games around. It has 350 million registered players at this very moment. There are about three million people playing. If you've played Fortnite or other new games, you'll have noticed they're a far cry from the old classics like Pac-Man or Super Mario. These games are complex and immersive, designed to be a transportive experience. But for some, that escape can turn into obsession. And now a group of parents in Quebec has been approved to bring forward a class action lawsuit against Fortnite maker, the video game giant Epic Games. They allege their children were addicted to Fortnite. Cam Adair is the founder of Game Quitters, an organisation to help those struggling with video game addiction. Cam, Hello.

CAM ADAIR: Hey, Paul. Thanks so much for having me.

PH: Yeah, it's our pleasure. What was your experience with video games?

CAM ADAIR: Initially when I started playing video games, they were just a fun hobby. I had, you know, high level hockey players in Calgary and I really enjoyed my time playing video games after school. But when I was 13, video games went from being a hobby to becoming a problem and my life really took a turn for the worse.

PH: So, like, what does that mean? That like what? How did it affect your life? What impact did it have?

CAM ADAIR: Well, gaming was a lot better than going to school or, you know, just experiencing a lot of social challenges at hockey as well. And gaming filled all that space and all that time. So I actually dropped out of high school. I never graduated. I was playing video games up to 16 hours a day. I was very depressed. I was pretending to have jobs, you know, all that sort of stuff. And gaming really was- had a hold on me and I couldn't break away.

PH: 16 hours a day.

CAM ADAIR: All day, every day. My dad, you know, would think I was at work, but I was actually downstairs in the basement. I had snuck in through the bedroom window. I was playing games and I would do anything, get rid of anything that was in the way of me being able to play. It was eat, sleep and game. That's all I did.

PH: And were you thinking at the time that this is. Kind of unusual like like that. Were you aware that this was a like a lot of time that you're doing this and that you just couldn't stop is what it sounds like?

CAM ADAIR: I couldn't stop and I wasn't in control. And that's a big part of, you know, when you're looking at the difference between a game hobby and a gaming problem is whether or not someone is in control. At the time I just wanted to play and anything that got in the way of that, I would find a way around it to make sure I could play more. And you know that was a really big issue. It was very hard for my parents. It was very difficult for them to engage me. And I know that's the same story for a lot of parents out there. And so looking back, you know, I'm not very happy about how I behaved. And, you know, I feel really bad for my parents having to deal with me like that at the time. But that is what addiction is. It really can destroy your life.

PH: When you look back, can you even, you know, can you identify a point where it turned from a kind of a fun game into an addiction? Was there a line that you can recall that you crossed where one became the other?

CAM ADAIR: I think when I started to, you know, pretend to have a job at Earl's, you know, my dad thought I was a prep cook, but I was actually just gaming all night. And, you know, that job didn't work out. Obviously, after a couple of weeks, they were looking for, you know, where's the paycheque? And so I quit and said, I got a new job. And this time it was an Internet cafe. So when I was going to great lengths in order to keep playing and I was unresponsive, I didn't want to work, I didn't want to go to school, I didn't want to play hockey anymore. I just wanted to play video games. And there was nothing else I wanted to do. You know, that's really where, you know, my situation got worse and worse until I reached my bottom.

PH: How did you stop?

CAM ADAIR: Well, I reached the breaking point, and that's when I had written a suicide note and was serious about following through with it. I was very fortunate. I had a friend who reached out to me that night and came and saw me and helped me just, you know, kind of come to this realisation that, you know, my life was in a really dire state and I needed to make a change. And I asked my father to help me find the counsellor. And this began a period of recovery for me. It took, you know, a couple of years. There was a relapse in there. But realising I was out of control with gaming and and that I needed to stop entirely was a big part of me beginning to improve my life.

PH: So, I mean, as you know, there are people that that don't believe that such stuff can be an addiction. I mean, what do you say to two people like that who say, look, you could just turn it off like turn off the screen the end? How do you respond to that?

CAM ADAIR: Well, I speak with families every single day who have tried that. And then their their kid puts their head through a wall or gets violent or worse, runs away or causes harm in some other way. And so it's not always that simple. It definitely is important to be reducing or, you know, completely eliminating the amount of time someone is playing if it's leading to serious consequences in their life. But doing that safely is very important, and it's just not as simple as taking the devices away. Especially in today's day and age, where technology is a huge part of the way that people connect, especially young people, that could be their social lifeline. And if there's underlying mental health, like anxiety or depression, that could be there one coping mechanism at that time. It could still be a problem, but they could still be performing an important function for that individual. So I think having a lot more empathy about how to approach someone who's struggling is absolutely paramount.

PH: And what advice would you give, I guess, to to people who think they themselves have a problem or two parents of kids? If if parents suspect their kids have a problem, what advice would you give?

CAM ADAIR: Well, the number one thing is that you're not alone. I speak with gamers every single day who are deciding they want to limit or reduce completely the amount of time they spend gaming. They want to focus on other things and put their attention elsewhere. And I speak to families, and it's about reconnecting to family, building relationships again and finding, you know, what is the amount of technology or the way that you engage with it that helps you function and perform well in the world? And how do you limit the downsides that technology can have? And it's not just gaming, it's social media, it's consuming content, it's being addicted to our phones. We all have it in some way. And so I think it's important for all of us to be looking at how do we make that shift and just how do we live and function in society. So if someone is concerned that they might have a problem, they can go to [unintelligible] d take the quiz on the homepage. It has nine questions and it'll give you an idea based on your score of kind of where your gaming is and maybe some strategies you can implement to do something about it.

PH: And of course, the reason why we're talking about this today is because of the parents in Quebec who are suing a game company. What what do you think about that? What what responsibility do you believe the game companies have in all of this?

CAM ADAIR: The game companies have more responsibility than they're currently accepting, and I think that's an important thing. I was not surprised that the lawsuit came forward. There have been similar lawsuits that in the past. I was very surprised last week, though, where the FTC in the U.S. settled with Epic Games for half a billion dollars due to deceptive design practises and children privacy violations. That was the largest settlement when it comes to a gaming company with the FTC. And that's a massive thing. And so that gives me a lot more, I guess at the moment. I would speculate that the lawsuit has a lot more legs now due to that. So I think this is probably a preview of things to come. Epic Games is only one developer. There are many games out there that are predatory in certain ways and need to be addressed. And if the gaming industry isn't going to self-regulate better and more proactively, I think real regulation is a threat.

PH: And just in a couple of seconds we have left. Cam, are you good? Are you all right? I mean, or do you fear you might fall back into this?

CAM ADAIR: I'm in a great state now. My life is forever changed, honestly. And, you know, I just do what I can every single day to help others out there who are struggling. So I'm in a good state and others can, too. So you're not alone. Never give up. Real life is worth fighting for.

PH: Thank you so much, Cam.

CAM ADAIR: Thanks, Paul. Thanks so much.

PH: Cam Adair is the founder of Game Quitters, which helps people struggling with video game addiction. We requested a comment from Epic Games but have not heard back. In a statement, the company has said, quote, We have industry leading parental controls that empower parents to supervise their child's digital experience. Parents can receive playtime reports that track the amount of time their child plays each week and require parental permission before purchases are made. We have also recently added a daily spending limit by default for players under the age of 13. We believe the statement continues. We believe the evidence will show that this case is meritless. End of quote. The company had also tried to block court action by arguing there is no clear definition of a video game addiction disorder. However, the judge who certified the class action suit noted that the World Health Organisation classified video game addiction as a disease in 2018. Jeffrey Derevensky worked on getting that deal or that classification. He is a professor of educational psychology at McGill University and the director of the International Centre for Youth Gambling Problems and High Risk Behaviours. And Chris Ferguson is a professor of psychology at Stetson University in Florida and co-author of Moral Combat Why the War on Videogames Is Wrong. Good morning to both of you.

JEFFREY DEREVENSKY: Good morning. Morning. Thank you for having me on.

PH: Jeffrey, begin with you. What do you think? How common are cases like? Like what Cam was describing of of what you'd consider a true addiction? How common is that?

JEFFREY DEREVENSKY: Well, we know it's common enough that a large number of people are experiencing gaming related problems. I think Cam's situation may have been a little more on the extreme where he actually was thinking about committing suicide, had suicidal ideation or thoughts. But there's a large number of young people who are experiencing gaming related problems that gaming excessively. They're experiencing a wide number of problems associated with their gaming, including, as Cameron mentioned, academic problems, employment problems, health problems, where people are losing large amounts of sleep because they're gaming all night long, they're not eating properly. And there's certainly quite a bit of social and parental problems, a lot of fighting between parents and young people saying, I want to continue playing and parent saying, no, it's enough. Shut off the computer or turn off your cell phone.

PH: And Jeffrey, why is it appropriate, in your view, to have an official classification of video game addiction disorder?

JEFFREY DEREVENSKY: Well, we've seen a large number of individuals and a large number of studies showing growing numbers of young people. And that's not just children or adolescents, but even young adults who are experiencing problems related to their gaming. And there are a large number of these negative consequences. And as Cam mentioned, this is all related to an impaired control mechanism and inability to stop and then then ability to cut down that gaming in spite of the negative consequences.

PH: Chris, what do you think of the official designation?

CHRISTOPHER FERGUSON: Well, I think it's important to point out that within the scholarly community that the decision has actually been very controversial. There have been large groups of scholars that have come out opposing the W.H.O. on this, including the media psychology, divisions of the American Psychological Association and the Psychological Society of Ireland. So there has been a lot of opposition to this idea that it's appropriate to think of this situation as something that games are doing to kids. I mean, I think where there's agreement is that, you know, a small number of kids and we haven't really talked about percentages, but the best data suggest maybe about 1% to 3% of kids or adults, you know, are having difficulty with moderating, you know, gaming. But that's true for a lot of activities. Some people have difficulty with shopping, some people with exercise, some people with work, some people with food, some people with sex. So, you know, part of the question is why is the show so focussed in on games and not all these other things that people are overdoing? But also, you know, part of the problem is that we don't really I mean, Epic Games is actually correct. There is no clear definition of what gaming disorder is. Even the W.H.O. didn't really provide a clear list of diagnostic criteria for us to use in terms of documenting what this is and what the best evidence suggests at this point, it's not that there's a growing number of these things. They're actually pretty rare for the most part. And it seems to be that what's happening for these individuals and I think Mr. Adair even kind of hinted at this, is they typically start with another mental illness. They have anxiety, they have depression, they have ADHD. And in some cases they turn to games because, you know, that distracts them from their pain that they're experiencing with their other mental illness. But it doesn't seem to be something that games are doing to people. You know, it seems to be something within the individual that they're experiencing. And if it weren't games, it would be something else. So I think the risk that we have of sort of conceptualising this as being gaming disorder is that is miscommunicated to the public, that this is something that games are doing and that if only we could get rid of games, then these kids would be doing well or these adults would be doing well. And the evidence doesn't suggest that. You know, and the real risk is you could bring a child into a kind of treatment that is not well validated and there are no well validated treatments for this gaming disorder to cough up at this point. You reduce the person's gaming and then you send them back. And they still have their depression and they still have their anxiety. They still have these other problems. So I think that, you know, what we're seeing already at this point is that this gaming disorder diagnosis is probably causing more problems than it is fixing. And I think we have to remember, we've been through this before with other technology. We've been through this with the radio, we've been through this with television. We've been to this wood rock music. It's actually kind of interesting at the beginning of the of the segment, you even kind of said like the games that today are a far cry, from the Games of the past. And that sort of hints at the sort of goalposts moving that we tend to do with technology and these other forms of technology. We all look back on and realise that, you know, they weren't a big deal, you know, that they weren't the source of people's problems. If we were in the 1940s, we'd be talking about radio addiction, but we're not. We're talking about video addiction because we're in the 2020s and and that's really what it is this is going to do in 20 or 30 years. Look, just as embarrassing to the W.H.O. as these other more panics have to us in the past.

PH: Let's talk a bit about this, the suit for a second, then I'd like to hear from both of you about this. Jeffrey, you first on this. I mean. Addiction or whether it's an addiction, you know, or just a really fun thing to do that people like doing and wherever this lands on that scale. What role? Or responsibility, I guess. Does a company have? With its users regarding becoming addicted. What what's what's your take on that?

JEFFREY DEREVENSKY: Well, I think it's interesting when you read the statement from Epic Games about their perception of how they're trying to address these issues by incorporating things like daily spending limits, by changing the spending limits for different age groups, by incorporating a wide variety of options that parents can elect to use in terms of helping them modify their children's behaviour. The gaming industry and not just epic games, but the gaming industry as a whole has always said this is not our problem, this is a parental problem. If parents are concerned that their children or adolescents are engaged in these games excessively, then it's up to them to modify their playing behaviour by turning off the computer, by removing the X-Box or by removing their cell phone for a certain period of time. The gaming industry, and I think Cam was right when he said, has not really taken on that huge responsibility. We also know that there are other lawsuits that are pending that are suggesting the merging of gaming and gambling. And we know that gambling is prohibited for underage individuals. And the whole notion of loot boxes or why boxes or white dollars in which children are trying to purchase items that enhance their gaming pleasure is really very similar to that of gambling. And we have done a number of studies that have shown that individuals who are excessively gaming, who are purchasing these boxes actually shows signs of gambling disorder.

PH: And Chris, I mean, I take your point about, you know, in the old days, it was TV or radio or rock music. My mom used to limit me for watching TV after school. All right. We've all been through that. But do game do game makers have any responsibility when it comes to players or their parents with these things? I mean, they are you know, every game maker wants to make their game as fun and amazing. And sure, they want to make people want to play. Right. So do they have any responsibility on how that might play out?

JEFFREY DEREVENSKY: Yeah, that's a great question. So so first off, I think it's important to point out that regarding the FCC, the Epic Games lawsuit, that people have been talking about, it actually, at least in my understanding, it had nothing to do with addiction. It had to do with epic games, was collecting personal information from kids without their permission and in some cases charging them for, you know, stuff basically without their consent, you know. So it really had to do more with sort of the business practises of epic games, not this idea that the games were addictive or that sort of thing. So I think, you know, Mr. what Mr. Adair said, you know, that might have given people the impression it was over addiction. It was not, at least as I understand it. So, you know, at the moment we don't really have this kind of evidence that like, you know, everybody kind of thinks that, well, these evil companies are putting these, like, sinister things into these games that are like hooking kids, like it's heroin or something like that, you know? And there's really no evidence at this point that that is true, you know, that certainly they do make games to be engaging. But this idea that there's something in the game and that's what's causing people to overdo, you know, games they can't we just don't have that evidence. The evidence suggests that it seems to mostly come from people's pre-existing mental health problems, essentially, you know, and you know, I actually do some research on loot boxes, too, and I don't know if your listeners have heard that term before. So it's important to point out that what we're referring to as loot boxes are basically the option of buying, you know, usually for like $1 or $2 or $3, you know, either costumes or weapons or things like that that can enhance people's experience in the game. So some things are called micro-transactions with with loot boxes. You oftentimes don't know what you know. Basically, that's where it's referred to as being like gambling. It's sometimes you don't know what you're going to get until you pay for it. And I'm actually not a fan of blue boxes, you know, myself, to be very frank. So again, it's important to point out that we don't have any evidence, at least from the studies that we've done, that loot boxes cause people to develop problems, gambling or problem gaming. What we do see is that for people that already have problems with gambling, that they tend to spend a little bit more on these boxes every month. And and the amount seems to be somewhere between 10 to $40 a month, you know, so it's a small amount, but but it is there. And I think with things like that, you know, I definitely think that, you know, companies have the obligation to inform people what they're buying, you know, so there should be some sort of content descriptor on the game saying that this game has loot boxes. You know, you may be experiencing these things. I know I believe in the United States, at least the SRB, you know, or the ISA is now requiring games to have that content warning. And I think that is good. This idea that there's a like a legal requirement that, you know, games can be sued because of the personal behaviour of people that play the games. Again, I don't think the research is going to be there to support a lawsuit like this, you know. Yeah, I don't think the evidence is there that the mechanisms in the games are the cause of people's problems rather than their own mental health issues. And once again, I think this is just what we do as a society is when we have problems. We're just so tempted to turn to blame technology. We're so tempted to turn to blame something external rather than acknowledging that oftentimes the problem is with us. You know, again, the research that we've done suggests, for instance, that with young kids, oftentimes kids turn to games because they're stressed at school or they're stressed with their parents, you know, and parents don't want to think that, you know, the reason their kids are having problems is because of anything having to do with themselves or school. It's just much easier to blame games or some other form of technology, and I think we've got to get out of that habit.

PH: I suspect we could talk about this for a lot longer, but we've run out of time. I appreciate the thoughts from both of you.

JEFFREY DEREVENSKY: Thank you. I appreciate it.

PH: Jeff. Derevensky is a psychology professor at McGill University in Montreal. Chris Ferguson is a psychology professor at Stetson University in Florida. Coming up after your regional update, rural Nova Scotia is set to play a big part in the latest space race. Plus, Lionel Messi finally got his World Cup victory and now a photo of him hoisting the trophy is the most liked image on the Internet. I'll speak with the photographer when we return. I'm Paul Hunter and you're listening to The Current.

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How a photo of Lionel Messi became the most liked image on Instagram; and spaceport construction divides a community in Canso, N.S.

Guests: Shaun Botterill, John Chipman

PH: I'm Paul Hunter and you're listening to The Current.

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VOICE 1: It was the most intense game ever.

VOICE 2: You don't understand what this means, for Argentina and for the rest of the world who are football fans. This is it.

PH: [Chuckles] Fans were jubilant when Argentina won the World Cup for that country's star player, Lionel Messi. It was the culmination of a lifelong dream, and you sure can see the joy in his face. The moment was captured in a photo that has. Now got more than 73 million likes on Instagram, the most ever in the platform's history. You've probably seen it. Messi is sitting on a team mate shoulders with the cup raised above his head. Shaun Botterill is the Getty Images sports photographer who took that photo. Good morning Shaun.

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Morning.

PH: I don't know if you get an award for for breaking the Internet, but congratulations nonetheless. Thank you.

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Very much.

PH: In the frenzy of that moment, what were you seeing through your lens when you when you took that shot?

SHAUN BOTTERILL: I think you kind of. But you see the whole thing coming together. You know, he he's latched on to the shoulders [unintelligible]. He kind of just appeared in front of me. So all of a sudden, through the lens you seen you seen the sort of image you've been waiting all six weeks of the tournament to try and capture.

PH: And then you just click.

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Yeah. You just keep keep looking through the lens and, you know, he, you know, he was singing, he's waving his arms, you looking around, and you just keep going while he's still there because you don't know when he's going to move on to different, different spot in the way from from my sort of position.

PH: So are you thinking at the time, like this is madness and this is like like just, like, are you caught up in the moment or are you working and you're thinking, get the frame right, wait for the- like, and just you're working, working, working. What's going through your mind at that moment?

SHAUN BOTTERILL: I think he hit the nail on the head. I definitely thought, this is completely crazy because like I say, when you shoot a World Cup, you can't hope to get into a situation like this where the captain, the winning captain, is doing something a little bit different. And, you know, I do remember taking a moment to think, oh, wow, this is actually happening in front of me. So it was kind of- and he's crazy. I think what you said, its is, it is a crazy moment.

PH: You know, I know a lot of stills guys and I have so much respect for the work that you do and that that all the stills photographers do. And I've come to sort of see it this way that, you know, especially in this day and age of iPhone in every pocket, anybody can can press the shutter button. But the hard work is being in the right place at the right time to take that, to get a moment to get something that matters, that that's where the work is to be there so that you can take that shot. What what was your game plan in the lead up to that moment?

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Well, you know, I work with a team of photographers, Getty Images, we're working with FIFA, and so we had a bit of a plan of where we'd go in the circumstances if, you know, when the team started moving around from the main trophy lift. And so my job was to kind of get somewhere between the fans in the the edge of the pitch, so to speak. So as soon as he looked like he was moving that way, I kind of headed to where I said I'd go and like you say, you have a little plan. And then let's be honest, it is down to luck that if it happens where you are. And I'm quite happy to take that bit of luck. But it's, yeah, it's, it's nice when it comes out because you do think. You do kind of plan the stuff. And, you know, I could sit and say. You know, we don't think about it, but like I say, we did. And having the bit of luck is kind of I think it's good for the for all of us, like you say, for photographers in general, I think. Like I say, there's more to it than just pressing the button. So yeah, it's nice when it comes off and the fact that quite a few people have started to look at the pictures quite, quite a lot.

PH: Well, you make your own luck, right? You know.

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Yeah, yeah.

PH: Did you know that you'd captured- I mean, so much can go wrong when. When you press the shutter button, right? Like something- as so much can get in the way of a great shot just by bye. Bad luck. Right. It's the flipside of good luck. Did you know that you'd caught that kind of a fantastic moment when you clicked?

SHAUN BOTTERILL: For sure. I thought it's a, I thought it's a pretty nice picture. I you know, as simple as that. I thought I need to now send the picture back to to our office to be edited and sent out. So the good thing is where it happened was right behind the goal where we have our remote cameras during the match. So they're actually cable into the Internet. So I grabbed one of the cables out of one of those remote cameras, pushed it into my camera as soon as he moved, you know, as soon as like, it all happened in front of me. I just make the picture as quick as I could, to be honest. And then you kind of hope that- I'm sure the people have got different angles on the picture, I'm sure. And. You know, very fortuitous the, you know, the picture was posted on Lionel Messi's Instagram account. So it kind of, it gives you that lift.

PH: Yeah. That didn't hurt.

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Exactly. You know, it's like that.

PH: Is it true that your son was working the editing desk that night?

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Yeah, he was part of our team in London. Had been there for the duration of the World Cup. So it was kind of sweet because he messaged me. I was down the tunnel because it looks like because we work with FIFA. I was I was down the tunnel by the Argentina dressing room. Just sort of the calm after the storm. And he just messaged me and he said, Hey, Dad, I think you got a pretty nice picture tonight. So it's kind of quite a surreal moment of, you know, like when you when you're standing in the and it's all starting to calm down, it's quite sweet to get a message off of him, but. I mean, I've got two boys and they're big soccer fans and big Lionel Messi fans. So they actually think he's hilarious because, you know, he's all guys gone mad on the Internet. It's, it's funny.

PH: [Laughs] This is what your eighth World Cup, I think either editor or photographer. You're going to top this moment?

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Well, it's going to be a struggle. If I'm honest, I think. I think the you know, the thing about being in photography, you know, I'll be back doing the Premier League in the new year. So you're back to zero to try and, you know, not not mess up another moment. You know, I'm sure there'll be goals going in and I'll still be missing a few of those in a few weeks coming. So yeah, I think the challenge is always there. But I think somebody like what I realise now is the amount of people that it brings how big soccer is and Lionel Messi is a star in that thing. You know, when you look at 72 million people. It makes you realise how what a huge star is. So that, you know, it's going to take a while for somebody else to build into that kind of star person for the next few World Cups, which are probably too old to be at the next ones.

PH: Well, good luck. Good luck. Topping that. And Sean, it was a pleasure chatting with you.

SHAUN BOTTERILL: Thanks very much for having me on.

PH: Righto. Shaun Botterill is a sports photographer with Getty Images.

[Music]

PH: I'm Paul Hunter and this is The Current. Fishing is the lifeblood of Canso, Nova Scotia. But now the small community is set to be the site of Canada's first commercial spaceport. It's a $200 million project, a launch pad for rockets carrying communications satellites into orbit. The company behind it plans to launch its first test rocket by the end of next year. And once it's fully operational, up to eight rockets could launch each year. Not everyone in Canso, though, is convinced that the spaceport is a good idea. The CBC's Jon Chipman visited the community earlier this year.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN CHIPMAN: Hi. I've just arrived at Seawind Landing, a bucolic country inn in northeastern Nova Scotia. I'm here to meet Steve Matier. He's a former NASA engineering contractor and the current chief executive of Maritime Launch Services, a company with ambitious plans for the region.

SOUNDCLIP

JC: This is a... little piece of paradise.

STEVE MATIER: Oh, it is. It is.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Seawind Landing is about 45 kilometres from Canso. Where Maritime Launch or MLS plans to build a spaceport. And the reason he's staying so far away, the only place to stay in the fishing village is a roadside motel that's not quite executive level accommodations.

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JC: Where did you stay?

SM: I am staying at the Last Port.

JC: Uh huh? Yeah. Yeah, it's a little rough. [cross talk] Yeah, it could be. It could do with a rebranding.... instead of the Last Port how about Spaceport.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Matier and his local supporters are hopeful the economic spinoffs from the spaceport might level up the accommodation options in Canso and a whole lot more. But not all the locals are convinced that launching rockets from their community's backyard is a good idea. My first question is why canso? The community is remote about three and a half hour drive northeast of Halifax. It's the easternmost spot in mainland Nova Scotia.

SOUNDCLIP

SM: really boils down to the commercial space market and where people want to put their satellites into orbit. And in analysing locations around North America, this location really fit that bill.

JOHN CHIPMAN: MLS is aiming to put satellites into a low-Earth, roughly North-South orbit. Think of the company as a very high tech, very long distance freight service, delivering satellites to orbits up to 2000 kilometres above the Earth.

SOUNDCLIP

SM: And so being able to be in a place that points in the right direction, we're next to the ocean. We've got thousands of kilometres down to South America, the coast of Africa, to Europe. And in that range of inclinations, as it's called, is where all these satellite clients want to put these satellites into orbit.

JOHN CHIPMAN: The company plans to use a rocket called the Cyclone-4M as its main delivery vehicle. It's a medium class launcher and it'll carry up to five tonnes to space. And this is where MLS plans start to get contentious because a Cyclone-4M doesn't exist yet, it remains in development and has never been launched. Plus, it's being designed and built in Ukraine. The industrial complex where the rocket will be manufactured was bombed by Russia this summer. Matier was reluctant to talk about the specifics.

SOUNDCLIP

SM: What I can characterize for you is that those two missiles, one landed outside the gate, took some civilian life, which was horribly sad, and the other was inside the gate close to the same place. And that it's a massive facility... And only a small corner of it is building rockets. Right. So take that for what it is. You know, I'm being careful, obviously, in how I'm phrasing this. But, you know, we certainly have continued to work with them and stand with them. And what they're doing, they're working day in and day out.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Matier remains convinced that they are the perfect partner to build a rocket for the planned spaceport in Canso. A key factor for him. The Cyclone-4M is not being designed from scratch. [inaudible], the Ukrainian aerospace firm that's developing it, has decades of experience designing rockets going back to when the country was a part of the Soviet Union.

SOUNDCLIP

SM: These guys, when I say they've been around for almost 70 years, that really means something to me as a rocket guy. You can't find anybody, that level of experience on the planet that has that depth and breadth of experience in putting rockets into space. We're building on grabbing on to some significant heritage and capability that's in place. It's how the model works.

[Small talk]

JOHN CHIPMAN: Marie Lumsden runs a small flower business in Canso and is a leader of action against the Canso Spaceport, a local opposition group to the project. She lives in the home her parents built at the end of Union Street on the eastern edge of Canso. We're standing in her backyard that overlooks a valley of colourful autumn trees.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIE LUMSDEN: So there's a road in... around Whitman Street goes through and then it sort of extends out on the granite shelf, sort of out towards the headland. And that's where they're talking about...

JOHN CHIPMAN: She points out to the spot where MLS plans to build its spaceport.

SOUNDCLIP

ML: So from this house, it's about 2.9 kilometres to their launch pad. So. But other parts of the facility would be closer to, you know, closer in.

JC: So will you be able... What's the view like from here if this happens?

ML: Well, you would see something go off. Certainly. And you sure as hell would hear it.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Lumsden is blunt. She doesn't feel she or anyone else should have to be guinea pigs for an unproven, foreign built rocket that will be launching from just beyond her backyard.

SOUNDCLIP

ML: You know, this is too close to us. Are we even going to be able to be here? We've contacted insurance companies and they're saying, well, sorry, you know, we might protect you from fire, but if something lands on your house or if there's, you know, your windows break or whatever, tough.

JOHN CHIPMAN: So a couple important details... The rocket's flight plan will carry itself from the launch pad out over the ocean, away from Marie's home and the rest of Canso and other nearby communities. MLS says there'll be a two kilometre zone around the site where people will be banned from during launches. It says the size of it was approved by Transport Canada, but a ministry spokesperson said the department is still working with the company to determine a safe distance. In terms of the risk of an accident studies show that worldwide rockets fail about 6% of the time. That's more than one in 20. But... And here's another important caveat, rocket failures do not automatically mean there's been a catastrophic accident or explosion. Failure means the rocket didn't function properly. Explosions are rare, even among the failures. However, safety isn't Marie Lumsden's only concern. She's also worried about the spaceport's environmental impact.

SOUNDCLIP

ML: It's almost a religious thing. It's like your soul is in the land. There's no separation. Environmentally, it's... I see the potential for this piece of land to be completely destroyed for absolutely nothing.

JOHN CHIPMAN: She's not alone. Of the people I spoke to, opposed to the spaceport... Safety and the environment came up over and over again. What launches might do to air quality, to birds, to wildlife, to the woodlands, to the fisheries. Elizabeth Marshall worries about the water.

SOUNDCLIP

ELIZABETH MARSHALL: Those of us that are near the water that had lived there for generations, we recognise how delicate the ecosystem is here. It is so delicate. It took millions of years to create what we see out here.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Marshall is a Mi'kmaq elder and grandmother. She sees the spaceport as a modern day form of colonisation.

SOUNDCLIP

EM: They sucked whatever they could dry from the Atlantic Ocean, to the land, to the rivers. Then where did they go? They went up to space. To start that whole mentality of colonisation once again. It's the same mentality.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Marshall is from Eskasoni First Nation in Cape Breton, about a 90 minute drive from Canso, and she's well known across Nova Scotia for her involvement in grassroots resistance movements. From fighting mining projects in Cape Breton to toppling a statue of Edward Cornwallis, Halifax's founder. She knows how to make her voice heard. Marshall came to Canso last year to protest the spaceport and offered to drive in again. We arranged to meet at a cabin in Little Dover, another fishing hamlet close to the proposed spaceport. When I got there, she hadn't arrived yet.

SOUNDCLIP

[people saying hello]

JOHN CHIPMAN: But others had. I was confused at first. Who were all these people and what was going on?

SOUNDCLIP

JC: I'm just going to go around and get everyone's name, if that's all right.

PATRICIA S.: Patricia Steger.

EMILY L.: Emily Lumsden.

KIMBERLY J.: Kimberly Jarvis.

MARLENE I.: Marlene Irwin.

JOHN CHIPMAN: They kept coming.

[SOUNDCLIP: More names listed]

JOHN CHIPMAN: And Coming.

[even more names listed]

JOHN CHIPMAN: Before long, there were at least 17 people on hand.

PATRICIA S.: I wonder why they picked this spot? Maybe because of the beauty. I don't know why they picked this spot here.

JOHN CHIPMAN: I would later learn that Marshall had posted online that morning that she was going to lead a protest in Little Dover against the spaceport, and word had spread quickly. But there was no protest, no action plan. And it became clear that this show of force was solely for my benefit. The journalist with a national platform, it felt a bit manipulative, but it also spoke to their motivation. There were clearly a lot of people around who really wanted me to know why they're so worried about this project. And I should note, while some spoke about those reasons as facts, these are their opinions and fears, and some of their concerns were, well, let's say, on the outer reaches of likely outcomes.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE VOICE: Given what's happening between Russia and Ukraine, why would we want a military target on the shore of Nova Scotia? I know it's not that far the way the missile flies from Russia to Nova Scotia.

JOHN CHIPMAN: But most seemed understandable.

SOUNDCLIP

ANOTHER FEMALE VOICE: My motivation is, is the health of the population that are in this current area. It's going... I feel it's going to have a significant impact.

THIRD FEMALE VOICE: What are they going to do when we've had a drought and there's a provincewide burn ban? It's bound to start fires out there on the dry barrens out there. Everything's just scrub.

FOURTH FEMALE VOICE: Our homes will be worth nothing because who's going to buy a house...

MALE VOICE: You'll know where your market value is going to go after they start rattling windows.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Fishermen worried about how the rockets might affect their livelihood.

SOUNDCLIP

FISHERMAN ONE: They do misfire and go off course and explode. It does happen. And what happens if all that fuel gets into the water and kills all the little lobsters. They're just very tiny, right? When they first hatch and they float on the water for so long and if they get covered up with oil and fuel. What's going to happen to the future if you kill millions of pounds of lobster?

JOHN CHIPMAN: Matier says MLS will do all it can to schedule launches around the lobster season and will work with the fisheries to limit their impact when it can't. He didn't address lobster spawning specifically, which occurs outside the season. So all understandable sounding concerns, but are they justified? There has been very little peer reviewed research into the environmental impact of rocket launches. Perhaps that's because historically there haven't been all that many launches. But that is quickly changing. Last year saw the highest number of successful rocket launches ever. 133 out of 144 attempts. And that number is expected to grow exponentially in the coming years. A 2020 review out of Australia looked at all the existing data on the environmental impacts of emissions from commonly used rocket propellants. One of its main conclusions further study is needed are the impacts more frequent space launches will have on all areas of the environment, especially launches using liquid propellants, of which the Cyclone-4M will be one. MLS says all of these concerns were addressed in its submissions for its provincial environmental assessment. Its position is clear. The spaceport will be built on a rock solid foundation of science, engineering and rigorous calculations and testing. The Cyclone-4M will be a world class rocket built on decades of technological know-how, and the risks to the environment and public safety will be small and manageable. The company has taken every precaution it can to reduce them even more. Approval for the spaceport's environmental assessment was granted three months after the company submitted a detailed focus report addressing the ministry's initial concerns. But it wasn't absolute. MLS still had to meet a number of conditions before it was allowed to begin construction this fall, a process that took another three years to complete. And there are further conditions the company must meet before beginning operations. It's important to point out that there are also many people in and around Canso excited about the spaceport. For the visitors it could bring, for the tax revenues, for the extra jobs, for the boost the spaceport could bring to the local economy. AJ's Pub, one of Canso's three restaurants, already has a Cyclone-4M pizza on its menu. A local construction company spent $350,000 on a new excavator. Its owner thinks he should be able to hire two new workers.

[Greetings]

JOHN CHIPMAN: Val Reinhold opened Val's crafts and delights. This past spring.

SOUNDCLIP

VAL REINHOLD: It was... It started out good for the summer. Had a lot of tourists and stuff, but it is slowing down quite a bit. Since school went in, it's been really quiet. It got quiet.

JOHN CHIPMAN: It's not easy running a small business in Canso. Val says she has a once a week baker who helps out and one other employee, but she hasn't been able to bring her in for the past month because it's been so slow. Val is all in on the spaceport. Anything that might help bring more people to Canso.

SOUNDCLIP

VR: I can't wait. And it's not just for my business. I think it'd be great for the town. Because the town's dying. But I'm hoping things are going to pick up again the way it used to be.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Sheri Parker is a member of the Community Liaison Committee for the Spaceport and a teaching assistant at the local school. Classes have thinned out over the years and she's tired of watching young people leave the area without any job prospects that might lure them back.

SOUNDCLIP

SHERI PARKER: It's a sustainability of our education system. It's the sustainability of our hospital. It's a sustainability of our service industry in town. We need something.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Steve Matier believes strongly that most of the community is on board with the project. He points to a local pro spaceport campaign. We were driving to a spot overlooking the site when it came up.

SOUNDCLIP

SM: The community itself put together a support petition. There was over 750 signatures. They did on their own. They tabled with the provincial government in support of the project, and that spoke to a level of commitment and interest in this thing happening. We ran polling last year. An independent company did local polling around the area and also regional polling in Atlantic Canada. And we had 86% support for the project. 86%.

JOHN CHIPMAN: He's overselling the numbers slightly. The petition had 743 signatures and the poll found that 82% were in favour of the spaceport if it met all environmental and safety regulation. But he's in the ballpark. However, when our conversation turned toward the opposition, the mood in the car shifted. Matier got agitated, frustrated. He argued that the naysayers are a tiny minority who refuse to engage with the project. He calls them anti-science for not believing an environmental assessment process.

SOUNDCLIP

SM: I can't do anything about the very, very small number of people that don't support it and don't want to get any more information. The part that just taps me is how okay, I'm from the States, right? And how this 20 or 30% of this crazy train of people can have such a loud voice and overrule 70 or 80% of the country in the direction that they want to go. Living through the Trump era. I am passionate about it and I'm frankly rather upset about how this both side ism and basically gets played through by the media, right? That oh my gosh, it's an equal number. No, it's not 50/50. It's not 40/60. It's not 30/70. It's four and 96. Okay.

JOHN CHIPMAN: The 4% opposition Matier is referring to comes from his company commissioned polling. It found that even when told the project would follow environmental and safety regulations, 4% of respondents opinions stayed the same. Meaning for Matier, there's no changing their minds, but both the petition and polling have their detractors. The main complaint neither was exclusive to the local area. The petition had signatures from visitors from all over the province, a couple from as far away as Alberta and Ohio. And the poll was sampling from as far away as Antigonish, more than 100 kilometres from Canso. The only petition specific to Canso and nearby communities was one done by the Anti Spaceport Group. They collected 410 signatures, which represents a 38% of adults in the local area. I asked them, MLS, about this competing petition... Several times. I got no response. So you've got supporters, you've got opposition. The issue has divided this community. It's the one thing everyone can agree on.

FEMALE VOICE: There's a lot of people in our area that support it but just don't say anything anymore because there's just so much turmoil that it's not worth the hassle of the fight or the snide remarks or, you know, and some people just want peace, right?

ANOTHER FEMALE VOICE: Well, it's turning people against each other, too. The whole community split. You know, so like you've got the fors and against and, you know, there's a lot of animosity here because of that. It's scary what it's doing to the community.

PH: The CBC's John Chipman in Canso, Nova Scotia. That documentary originally aired in October. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Weird Al Yankovic is on the program. I'm Paul Hunter. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Tuesday December 27, 2022 Full Transcript

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