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The Current Transcript for December 6, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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COVID-19 front-line worker and her family face deportation to Mexico

Guests: Claudia Zamorano, Warda Shazadi Meighen

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You can't see it inside your body. You know, you can't feel it. So this is all we can do. And just having to wait that time period, it's just a bit excruciating.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you go to the doctor to get a test. The wait for results can be stressful at the best of times. And for many women, that stress has been amplified. Wait times for cervical cancer screening results have gone from six weeks to six months in some jurisdictions. In 30 minutes, the toll that delay is taking and why some see it as a broader sign of women's health being undervalued. Also this morning.

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Past three years, quite difficult without food. I would not be able to feed myself and my son.

MG: Food is expensive right now in the news for the year ahead isn't good. A new report predicts that food prices in Canada will rise by another 7% next year. $1,000 more for a family of four in an hour. How that is hitting organisations, helping those who need that help the most. We begin though with a woman called a pandemic hero and her fight to keep her family in Canada. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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MG: Claudia Zamorano spent the pandemic working on the front lines. She is a housekeeper in the COVID ward at Royal Columbian Hospital in New Westminster, British Columbia. Instead of preparing for some rest around the holidays, though, Claudia and her family are preparing to be deported. She came to Canada in 2017 with her husband and daughter fleeing gang violence. Since arriving, they have filed multiple refugee claims which were denied. They are still waiting for a permanent residency application on humanitarian and compassionate grounds to be processed. But now they have been told to leave. Their story has attracted the attention of the B.C. government, which is now petitioning its federal counterparts to keep the Zamorano family in Canada. Claudia Zamorano joins me from New Westminster, B.C. Claudia, good morning.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Hi, good morning.

MG: How are you doing?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: I'm doing good, thank you.

MG: Tell me about coming to this country. You came to Canada from Mexico in 2017. Why did you leave Mexico?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: We came to Canada fleeing from organised crime and looking for a safe life for my family and my daughter.

MG: You were fleeing organised crime?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Yes.

MG: What were the threats that you were facing there?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: It's hard to talk about that, but we get a death threat. And I don't want to talk about that, to give details.

MG: But you were facing death. You were facing death threats there.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Yeah. Yeah. My family and I.

MG: How difficult was it to leave?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: It was hard because my family, it's still there, right? I came here with my husband's family. So it is hard. It is hard because right now my country like no safety place days and not to [unintelligible]. It's hard to talk about this because they are everywhere. Right.

MG: And you stay and you still have family there, as you say.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Yeah, my family.

MG: When you got to Canada, you applied for refugee status. What happened? What happened when you made that application?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: They. They deny it.

MG: Did they say why?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: The reason they say that we are not a- Mexico. It's not a dangerous place, really. I was like, It's fine. Even though Mexico is beautiful, my country is beautiful, right? But it's hard. If you go to, like, a tourist or business, it's fine. But when you live there, you see their reality, right?

MG: And so knowing that reality, what was it like? I mean, how did you react when they said that it wasn't it wasn't dangerous for you?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Well, I had to sleep with the knife under my bed. Oh, you need to watch out every time that you go out from your house. Check both say they've you've seen something strange, car, a different car and not the neighbours cars. It's hard. And I was in the time I was. I was alone with my daughter, right.

MG: And so after that was that application was denied. You applied to stay on humanitarian and compassionate grounds.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: We see. Yeah, we did a few, a few cases before that. And then we apply for stay on humanitarian compassionate ground.

MG: And what happened then?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: We are here. We are still here.

MG: They have issued a deportation order for you. When are you scheduled to be deported from Canada?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: So we have the date set up on December 19.

MG: And that's despite the fact that you have a stay of deportation that has yet to be, has yet to be addressed. Right.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Yeah.

MG: How are you doing in all of this?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: There is I it, it's hard. And I in that moment in my life that for everything, I'm crying. But I'm trying to be strong. Yeah, it is hard.

MG: You're trying to be strong in part because you have a daughter. As you mentioned, she's nine.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: She was nine years old.

MG: What does she understand about this?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: You know, she's. She needs. She has to grow up earlier than every child at the same age. She is like more mature. She understands that we have to live if we have to. Right. If they say you have to, we need to be, we need to listen them. And every time that she saw the press conference, they all there's a part of the community. She's like, mommy. So that means that we will stay. And I think, mommy, no, I, we don't know yet. We are still fighting to stay, but that doesn't mean nothing yet. Okay. So and she say- I can see her in her eyes. The pain, right? The worry. She before when we had the second last appointment with [unintelligible], it was so hard for her. She can honestly nightmares that night she had to had to sleep with a. She's with counselling at school. So yeah it's hard, it's hard.

MG: And you're still working.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Yes, I'm still.

MG: How is how are you managing all of that stress? Because in addition to this, you have a job. You. It must be overwhelming.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: [Unintelligible] to be honest with medication to to try to handle all my issue, mental issues that I have right now. And. Yeah. Always thinking. Thinking of my daughter. Right?

MG: Because of what you did during the pandemic, you've been called a hero. The Minister of Health, Adrian Dix, has said. We owe it to your family to keep them safe. You'll know that there are people who are campaigning for you. The hashtag is Let them stay. What does that mean to you?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: And meant a lot. I always say thank you, thank you, thank you. And I never imagined all of this all this support. Before I felt alone doing all of trying to figure out how to say- I am going to cry.

MG: It's OK.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Then. Now I see all of this, and I can't believe it. Really it's, it means a lot for us.

MG: If if the application. The stay that you have filed. If that doesn't move forward or if the court doesn't stay the order, what are you going to do?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: I don't know. To be honest, I don't know. I always ask the person that is helping as she lives that light package thing. We are selling things. It's hard. I don't know what is next. I need my future and my family future. So we don't know. We don't know.

MG: Canada feels like home now.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Yeah, of course. My daughter can go outside, go to the park with us and feel free. Right. And be her.

MG: What are you worried most about in terms of if you are forced to go back to Mexico?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Not be able to protect my daughter if something happens?

MG: I mentioned the the British Columbia Health Minister, and he has been petitioning your case to the federal government for weeks now and nothing has changed. We asked to speak with the Immigration Minister, Sean Fraser, about your case. His office said no. But if you had the chance to talk to him, what would you say to him?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: That we are still waiting for our application on our application for permanent residence and humanitarian and compassionate grounds. If the minister makes sure there is a decision before December 19, we can stay.

MG: What is it - I mean, you said it's a mess and you're a mess in all of this. What is it that's keeping you going day to day?

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: And I feel right now, I feel that I'm not me. Right. I feel like, I think I'm gonna cry. You know. All these five years, I had two miscarriage because of the stress. Doctors and the specialists and then the specialist said that, I don't have nothing. I'm fine. And I told her that I'm in a lot of stress right now, she says that is the reason. It's like everybody it's a move and maybe we can get argument and and it's hard. It's hard. It's hard.

MG: Yeah, I can hear it in your voice.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Mm hmm.

MG: Claudia, I'm really glad to talk to you. We'll speak more in just a moment about cases like yours and why this is happening. But in the meantime, I'm really glad to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Take care of yourself.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Take care.

MG: Okay. Bye bye.

CLAUDIA ZAMORANO: Bye.

MG: Claudia Zamorano lives with her family in New Westminster, B.C., and they have been issued a deportation order effective December 19th. Warda Shazadi Meighen is a partner at Landings LLP and an adjunct professor of refugee law at the University of Toronto. What a good morning to you.

WARDA SHAZADI MEIGHEN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What goes through your mind and hearing that?

WARDA SHAZADI MEIGHEN: Her story is emblematic of so many other individuals who are in similar circumstances, especially during the holidays. It's really sad.

MG: Especially during the holidays. Tell me about the timing of this. She and her family are scheduled to be deported on the 19th of December. One of the things they were asking is, could this even be pushed back until after Christmas?

WARDA SHAZADI MEIGHEN: Yeah. So we see a lot of cases during the holidays. I don't know if it's an uptake of deportations in absolute terms or if it's because of a lack of council presence during the December holidays. But we certainly get a lot of calls because of deportations during the holidays. So either there are a lot of deportations or there is a lack of counsel during the holidays that we get a lot of deportation calls during December.

MG: Aside from the timing, you said this is emblematic of so many cases. What to you sticks out about what we've just heard?

WARDA SHAZADI MEIGHEN: So many times an individual will have a refugee protection claim that's rejected because the refugee protection division, for example, might find that they don't have a well-founded fear of persecution, which is a particular legal test that an individual has to meet to get refugee protection in Canada. And that can be for a number of reasons. And the person may not have been able to put their claim in the the proper legal framework. They may not have been able to produce the right evidence. They may not have been able to meet the timelines. It can be for a host of reasons that they didn't meet the legal test. But the same set of underlying facts can meet the threshold required for a different application. In Claudia's case, for example, she was talking about humanitarian, a compassionate application. So Claudia and her family can get permanent residence on the basis of the hardship that they would face in Mexico, on the exact same set of facts that she would have put forward on her refugee protection claim. She could also talk about the establishment in Canada, the work that she's you know, that she's provided in the hospital setting, the best interest of her nine year old child. So she may not knowing the particulars of her case, but she may have, in theory, a very strong humanitarian and compassionate application. But because the processing time is approximately 22 to 36 months and she may not actually see that application come to fruition before her deportation is affected. And so it puts her and immigrants like her in a situation where, you know, they're so close to the finish line that they don't actually get to see that application, you know, finalised before they're removed from Canada.

MG: And so she's scheduled to be removed in 13 days. If that happens, what happens to the permanent residence or status claims?

WARDA SHAZADI MEIGHEN: So the application continues to be processed, but and the rejection rate is statistically far higher for those who are outside of Canada for humanitarian and compassionate applications. So the chances are just much lower if she's removed from Canada, number one. Number two, returning to Canada can be financially prohibitive for many immigrants who once they're removed from Canada, and then there are just practical impediments. You know, once a child is removed from school, for example, she may lose her job and not be able to financially have some sort of grounding to come back to Canada. And so once an individual is removed, there are a lot of practical reasons that they can't come back to Canada.

MG: Let me ask you just briefly about these mandamus applications. As I say, they're correctly immigration, refugees and citizenship Canada has been named in hundreds of these applications. What are they?

WARDA SHAZADI MEIGHEN: So a mandamus application is typically an application of last resort where an individual goes to the federal court. So they are asking the court to compel an administrative decision maker to act in accordance with something that's their public duty. So if a humanitarian and compassionate application, for example, has been pending for a very long time above the processing time that's normal. So, for example, if an application was pending for four years and the processing time is two or three years, and a person can go to the federal court and say, can you please ask the administrative decision maker to make a decision because the delay is too long and they have to render a decision in my case. There has been a massive uptake and uptake excuse me, in these applications because of the immense backlog at immigration administratively.

MG: And so what is going on with the backlog? Again, we'd ask to speak with Sean Fraser, the minister responsible and word he wasn't available to that request was denied. But what's going on when it comes to this backlog?

WARDA SHAZADI MEIGHEN: So going into the pandemic, there was a significant backlog and then the pandemic has compounded it for a number of reasons. And there was the leading into the pandemic applications were largely paper based still. And because a lot of the applications excuse me, a lot of the offices were closed during the pandemic. And because the applications were in paper, a lot of applications going to be processed. And then these offices were closed and staff wasn't going in. And so it kind of was the perfect storm. And, you know, they're working through the backlog now, but there is a significant backlog. And so individuals are not able to get through RCC and initially we'd be able to go through RCC. And failing that, we used to be able to file an access to information requests, which we would typically get within 30 days. I now had access to information requests that are, you know, filed 17 months ago that I'm still not able to get answers on. I would then typically go to a member of Parliament's office. They're so backlogged as well now that they're sort of putting their hands up and saying, Look, I can't actually get to these requests anymore. And so now there's a queue there. And so we are filing more mandamus applications than I've ever filed in the last decade in my practise, because there's really no other alternative. And it's a huge waste of resources because to file my name application, the clients are having to pay lawyers and judges are having to be involved. Department of Justice Counsel, they're having to be involved. Registry offices are having to be involved. The court is overseeing this process. And then immigration, refugees, citizenship. Canada is having to be involved in that further compounds the backlog because, in addition, refugee systems Canada instead of working on these application is now responding to backlogged requests under court supervision. So that, you know, of course, is compounding all these issues.

MG: And you have families like Claudia's that are in the balance here. Warda, it's good to talk to you about this again. Thank you very much.

WARDA SHAZADI MEIGHEN: Thank you, Matt, for having me.

MG: Warda Shazadi Meighen is a partner at Landings LLP and an adjunct professor of refugee law at the University of Toronto. Your CBC News is up next. And then.

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This is real people, real lives affected like mothers, sisters, wives.

MG: Women are waiting longer for routine tests to screen for cervical cancer. What does that mean for their individual health and what does it mean for women's health more broadly? Questions that we will ask in six minutes. My name is Matt Galloway and this is The Current. Stay with us.

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Anxious patients wait months for Pap test results

Guests: Erin, Dr. Diane Francoeur

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, with the rising cost of living, more people are turning to food banks and meal programmes. But the people running those programmes say their bottom line is hurting, too. How they're putting food on the table. That's in just under 30 minutes. But first, sounding the alarm over long delays for women's medical test results.

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MG: If you're waiting for test results after a cancer screening, every day that passes can be nerve racking. A backlog in laboratories, a backlog made worse by the pandemic is making that wait even longer, especially for women. Pap test results, which are used to spot early warning signs of cervical cancer, have gone from six weeks to six months. That is what Erin in British Columbia was told by her family doctor when she went in to get a test several weeks ago. We're not using Erin's last name because she's afraid of reprisals she may experience at work. Erin, good morning.

ERIN: Good morning.

MG: How are you doing?

ERIN: I'm pretty. Okay, thank you.

MG: Pretty okay.

ERIN: Well, this is definitely causing a bit of anxiety.

MG: I'm going to ask you about that anxiety in a moment. Let's just walk through what happened. Your regular test was pushed back because of COVID. How long has it been since you last tested for cervical cancer?

ERIN: It's been about just over four years since I have. And I believe you're supposed to check sort of every three years for women my age, I'm 42. So, yeah, it has been it's just been about, about a year over, which is, you know, I was kind of feeling anxiety about that already going in.

MG: And so when you went in to see your family doctor, what happened?

ERIN: She actually noticed an irregularity during the exam and then mentioned that she was the results were going to take six months. So that was pretty shocking of itself, just because I'd normally only waited a matter of weeks before to hear back, which, you know, is concerning.

MG: As you said, there was an irregularity. So what did what did she recommend?

ERIN: I've never really seen like this before. So she said, you know, she noticed something that was unusual about the cervix and wanted to just put me if you recommend me to get a further procedure done, which is I called a colposcopy and not wait for the results of the test because it would take six months to get, you know, an appointment for this procedure. And, you know, when I get the results back before you even get to do the next procedure. So it's just a matter of like, you know, six long months, just sort of waiting to wondering what was going on.

MG: What was going through your head when she said that, that it would take six months for that for that test as well?

ERIN: I didn't I you know, here hearing a lot of stories about health care in B.C. and Canada right now, if I didn't have, you know, a huge high hopes that it was going to, you know, everything would go smoothly. But it's definitely concerning to think that so many Canadians need to get this done and it just feels like people will fall through the cracks.

MG: You talked about anxiety. I mean, this is really hard to talk about, partially because it's your own personal health, partially because it's your own personal health that that is is, you know, in this weird limbo situation. So how would you describe that anxiety?

ERIN: Yeah. Well, I mean, I first wanted to have a little freak out, and I immediately went to Google and just started to read about cervical, cervical cancer in women. And so a lot of stories about women my age with kids as well and, you know, not catching it in time and and dying. So, you know, having this early screening test that we do is so important because there's no actual real signs of early cervical cancer that you can tell often. So this is one of the only things that we can do for women and where you can actually get a result to see what's happening because you can't see it. It's inside your body. You know, you can't feel it. So this is all we can do. And just having the way that that time period is just a bit excruciating.

MG: Has your doctor given any explanation, as she might understand it, about why the delay is so long?

ERIN: She was just a bit dismayed about it, I would say, but I didn't really get any info and I didn't sort of looked into it a bit. And, you know, it just seems like it's a crush of people that need to get it done but didn't get it done during the pandemic because he just really wanted to only go into the office if he had something that was serious and not something routine. So there will be a lot of women, you know, getting not great results. She also said that a lot of times after six months, it can come back inconclusive and then you have to do it again and then wait another six months to get that results. So yeah, it's definitely scary.

MG: You have a couple of kids as well. And so as a mom, how do you process what it is that you're going through?

ERIN: Well, I guess you just I know that I'm probably going to be okay. I guess I haven't had previous issues. There's other women that obviously have, but and it's even scarier for them. But, you know, you're immediately just thinking, my kids need to have their mom. And this is one of the leading causes of death for women my age in Canada. So it's not something that you can just totally laugh off here. So, yeah, I want to be here for my kids. I'm happy that they're now giving HPV vaccine to two kids. My son just got his in school, but, you know, I didn't get that when I was in school. So my age group isn't really protected with that vaccine either. So it's another concern.

MG: And you're doing the right thing by by making a test that that will give you early detection if something's up.

ERIN: Exactly. Yeah.

MG: Is there any other option for you in terms of getting the test done somewhere else? I mean, if you were to go there are private clinics, there are other me out of province, what have you. Are any of those options viable for you?

ERIN: I had thought about that. And I even am going, I am going to Mexico in a few months. And I was sort of thinking maybe I could just go in for a test. It just and or, you know, living closer to the border, go over to the border and do it. And I'm not sure there is private clinic options for them in Canada. I'd have to see. But it's just it's sort of disheartening that you have to sort of jump through these hoops. In your province, just just trying to get your basic health care accomplished. So, you know, it's not something that I want to do. But if I'm feeling that that anxiety or if I get sort of extra symptoms happening, then, then I might have to.

MG: What do you want the people who are overseeing your province's health care to know about what you're going through? Because this is part of a larger a larger conversation in health care. We're seeing, you know, procedures postponed. We're seeing results delayed in coming in. We're seeing surgeries cancelled. And so as somebody who is in that system, what do you want those who are in charge of the system to know?

ERIN: Like this. I mean, obviously, this is real people, real lives affected. And like mothers, sisters, wives and and daughters being affected by this. Like, what's the plan? Like, let's let's figure this out now before we get sort of this snowball effect of people needing requiring extra procedures done, extra treatments done, because we just can't do this basic test result in time. So, you know, it's just costing our system more money in the end and further burdening our overburdened health care system to not be able to just get this first step done in a reasonable amount of time.

MG: And costing you as well in terms of just mental health.

ERIN: Exactly.

MG: As I say, this is hard to talk about, but it's really, really important. I wish you the very best of luck and the very best of health as well. Erin, thank you very much for talking to us.

ERIN: Thanks.

MG: Take care of yourself. Bye bye.

ERIN: Bye bye.

MG: Erin lives in British Columbia. Dr. Diane Francoeur is the CEO of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada. She's been a practising obstetrician gynaecologist for 30 years. She's in Ottawa. Dr. Francoeur, good morning to you.

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of what you just heard from Erin?

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Well, I unfortunately, this is something I hear in my office. So when I see women, the system is overload. Women are worried. And, you know, I I've been in Oregon for 30 years. And during the pandemic, the burden of women's shoulder was really so big. And we're not out of it because all these waiting time for kids, for appointment, for surgery, for care is having a detrimental effect on their health. And I think that we need to speak about it so someone hears us and give us better access.

MG: I want to ask you about that, about having your voice heard. But as you understand it, what's going on here? Why is there this backlog for cervical cancer screening?

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Well, the backlog comes from the shortage of human resources in the lab. And the you know, the actual pap test that we have need to be looked over by a lab technologist and the pathologist. So obviously there's a human factor just there. So, you know, it used to take six weeks before we get the result. Now in some places, unfortunately, you know, the backlog could be as huge as six months because there's just not enough people in too many tests to be looked at. So in most of the provinces, they try to make, I would say, make a deal with private labs to have help to decrease the waiting time. But obviously, where Erin is living, it's not working. And and so it's that's why it takes so much time. But, you know, the pap is just a little step in the whole procedure. You know, we do screening to make sure we're going to get rid of cervical cancer or or pick it up so early that we can do a treatment and make sure that we will be able to avoid it. But then, you know, if it takes forever because she didn't talk about all the other backlog before, because just to have access, to have the test. So having access to see a primary health care provider is it's a bottleneck as well. And then you get the test and then you get the result. And as she really clearly said it, it's then you're going to have to wait again to have a colposcopy and then you're going to have a biopsy and you're going to have to wait again to get those results. So it's like a never ending story for for women, the waiting list for surgery is as high as three years for women surgery. I mean, it's it's not acceptable.

MG: How much of this, in terms of a backlog, has also been just exacerbated by the pandemic? For obvious reasons and very good reasons. A number of people didn't get perhaps preventative screening tests because of everything that we were all living through over the last few years.

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Yeah, absolutely. And the problem is that we don't know. We don't have numbers. They want us above the numbers because they don't want to be stuck with it, you know, from the government level. And I mean, you need to do so. And so we saw like the the mammogram screening programmes, they were slow during, you know, the confinement. But then they did try to catch up and I believe will in most provinces they did do well. But there's no standardised screening for pap. You know, because when you have a model like the mammogram, women get called in. If they don't go, someone is going to send the reminder. So they're not lost in track. But with with the PAP, we don't have that.

MG: What do you make of the fact that and again, not everybody can do this, but Erin has considered going across the border into the United States, perhaps to Mexico. Looking at other options, private clinics, what have you, to try to get these tests?

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Well, we there's you know, in most of the provinces, there's private clinic who will do those tests for a big fee. And I you know, I've always been a strong advocate for the free health care system because we are we are told that this is what we have. But when you know, when when you you start to look to be able to pay to have the basic - and I and I mean pap screening is the minimal that women should get - so if we're not even able to provide that. I mean it's it's something is going wrong. And you would be surprised because the people who will go and pay for the fee because they are anxious, it's it's not only the rich people. It's the middle class people who are just worried. And we see a lot of of people coming from other countries where the health care system is better organised. And this I'm not going to wait six months for this new result. I'm going to pay because I want to get this out of my mind. But, you know, to pay could be a couple of hundred of dollars. No one has to pay for that. You know, today you need to put this couple of hundred of dollars on your grocery.

MG: Do you understand why somebody would do that, though?

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Absolutely. And that's what I see every week. You know, they just want it off their mind because the anxiety in women is a real issue now and they just want to manage whatever they can get rid of. And I understand that.

MG: You talked about using your voice to make sure that this issue is raised. How much of this do you see connected with larger issues that we've talked about on this programme and that people have been talking about for years when it comes to how women's health more broadly is is funded, is prioritised in this country?

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Well, that's why I took this position.

MG: To be an advocate.

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because no one hears a woman's voice. And I believe we need to be vocal about it. We are half of the population and we vote. So we vote for people who are going to represent us and decide on the on the budget. That was there were these, and not so long ago, the big debate between the the federal and the provincial. And, you know that all health care decisions were made at the provincial level so that in order to have better services, they need to have money from the federal. And now the equation is not fitting. But nevertheless, then the province decides where they're going to put the money and obviously, you know, the pandemic and empty the pot, if we can say so. But but the women's are still there and women needs to be cared about. And, you know, we we're going to see things that we got rid of. Just, you know, there's lots of stuff that we never used to see, like, you know, being women, being on sick leave for ever because they they just cannot cannot have their surgery. They are in pain. They believe they have urinary incontinence. And it's like no one care. So someone has to see how all women do. And are they well, on that and this anxiety is killing everyone. And not being able to have access to care is a big burden on women's health.

MG: Let me ask you finally about this is something that Erin raised around the issue of HPV. And there are HPV vaccinations, but there is also a testing programme that's going to roll out across the country. Yeah. How is that going to change things?

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Well, that's a good thing that women who are listening to us today should remember. There's a very good the screening programme that is going to come, I would say probably within the next two years. And that is obviously once again health is provincial, so it might be different from one province to the other. But the purpose of it is to screening for the virus, this HPV virus. This is the virus. Well, we have a vaccine now to eradicate it. The vaccine is given to children, boys and girls in school. And it's very, very, very, very effective. But nevertheless, you know, we were never able to catch up on the women in any age. And she said it's so, you know, now where women were first vaccinated or around 26, 28. But there's a lot of older women who never got a chance to be vaccinated.

MG: Would you want it? Would you want to see that vaccine and that vaccination programme go go wider to make sure that those who were not vaccinated in school were able to access that vaccine?

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Absolutely. Because we know that, you know, this unfortunately, this vaccine is so costly. It's if you shop around, you may get it at $200 a shot and you need three. So most people don't have this kind of money and some insurance coverage, but not in the provinces again. So, you know, women who are not in a monogamous relationship should all be vaccine and in fact, all women should be. But these one, and especially the one who smoke and the one who are immunosuppressed and we know which women are more at risk and we we should be able to have them vaccinated. But so far, you know, no government listen to us, even if we advocate for that. So it's it's something that we can get rid of. And I'll just give you an example. This vaccine against HPV protects against cervical cancer, but it also protects, again, because there's like 300 different types of HPV and one used to give genital warts. When I was a young resident, we would see so many of them. It was crazy. And and my subspecialties paediatric gynaecology. I used to see little girls and you know at age two or three who got the the virus when they were both born from their mother. We don't see that anymore because we used to bring them in the OR and laser, you know, genital warts in little girls and genital warts in the trachea because they would have it there. And we don't see that anymore because of the vaccine. I mean, this is probably the best thing that ever happened in women in the last 25 years. But it's just like no one cares. We know that the vaccine can protect against the cancer, but it's just like, you know, there's so much place to put the money, no one's really care. So that's why we need to talk about it. And I'm hoping that when we're going to do the HPV screening launch in every province next year, it's going to be a really good time to have this conversation with government, to be able to catch up on the vaccination because it works.

MG: It just speaks to the importance of investing in in preventative care. I mean, again, to your point, a lot of money goes to treatment. A lot of money goes to dealing with something after it's been discovered. And there are there are monies that should be directed towards preventative care. And that's always been it feels like a perennial debate in health care.

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Yeah. And there's also something that people don't want to talk about. We start to talk more and more and at least each it, it's what we call the, the trauma part associated with. Yeah. If you don't need a colposcopy it's so much better not to have it because it's, it's a painful procedure when we do those the biopsy of the cervix and and and so you know we have to be careful about what women have to go through. You know, and I think Erin talked a lot about the anxiety around it. But then there's the pain because, you know, when we see a woman, she's not the uterus. She comes with all or previous challenges. And then we're starting with the child abuse, the sexual abuse later on. Physician, who are not respectful doing a gynaecologic exam before all of that. So, you know, having an unnecessary gynaecologic procedure that can be painful, you know, if we can avoid it, it should be, first of all. And with the HPV screening, we're going to be able to reassure women and get rid of a lot of unnecessary colposcopy when the woman's all negative.

MG: Dr. Francoeur, I'm glad to talk to you about this. This is important. Thank you very much.

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: It's a pleasure.

MG: Take care. Bye bye.

DR. DIANE FRANCOEUR: Take care.

MG: Dr. Diane Francoeur is the CEO of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada. This is the current. My name is Matt Galloway. Just a heads up on something coming later this week on the programme. Mushrooms have long been a culinary treat. What about a hobby? For the author and artist Diane Borsato? One led to another. She liked to eat mushrooms, but it wasn't until she was. Offered foraged chanterelles and Cape Breton that she decided to take up mushrooming herself. And now it is her favourite pastime. She's published a beautiful new book All About It, talking about the mystery and joy of mushrooms. And she took us on an urban foray in High Park in Toronto.

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This hobby is my first hobby where I started learning to identify things in nature by name, and I realised how much pleasure that gives me to learn the names of things. I mean, just to learn a little about, you know, botanical and Latin scientific naming and all the information that those words give you. But also the common names are just delightful. I mean, it's like a kind of poetry sometimes and sometimes, you know, the names are embarrassing or they can even be, you know, problematic. You know, they teach us a lot about our relationships, to things in nature and, you know, tell us a lot about ourselves. And I do appreciate it so much that, you know, I've come also while I'm learning the names of fungi to learn the names of plants or birds or, you know, trees or clouds. And there's this world around me all the time, you know, full of friends in a way. Like there's always familiar, always familiar. You know, when I go to new places and this is a kind of quiet joy.

MG: So the author and artist, Diane Barsato, she'll be my guest in the coming days to talk about the quiet joy of mushrooms, but also just the beauty and pleasure of slowing down and looking around you that's on its way on the current. Well, coming up after your regional update, rising food prices, how food banks and meal programmes are making it all work as their costs go up, just as needs are rising too. Will tell you that story in 90 seconds. This is The Current. My name is Matt Galloway.

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Charities offering hot meals grapple with rising costs

Guest: Ron Dunn

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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This is the Scott Mission. It's basically a food bank. And you get help for your family and whatever needs you have, you know, but groceries, also diapers for my kids and to, uh, make it to the end of the month, just saying because, you know, inflation, it's really high right now and now prices are coming up. It's really affecting us because like, we are basically working, you know, to put food on the table to pay rent. And it's just that like it's barely enough to make it to the end of the month. It's not like I can get, you know, Christmas decorations in my house or any presents right now, because, like I said, we're barely making it to the end of the month. But, you know, we're getting there. You have good years and bad years. This is just not a good one.

MG: That's Veronica outside the Scott Mission in downtown Toronto. This week, the 2023 Food Price Report predicted that a family's grocery bill could climb to $16,000 a year. And as Veronica says, for many Canadians, buying enough food is getting harder and harder. For people like Brian, the hot meal they receive at Scott Mission is often their only meal of the day.

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I'm on an Ontario disability and I mean I'm paying $800 or $850 a month and so only gives me a couple hundred bucks a month to to live on. So for me, this is absolutely a saviour, a good place for me. I'm able to come down and grab a meal every day, food bank twice a month. So now almost every day if I today are going to food banks so that will give me a little bit of relieve in from having to come every day. So I come down here, they've been really good about it. They just kind of wave you in and and then I come down. So I mean, I've had my, my first shakes of, you know, being in shelter situations and using soup kitchens or, you know, daily bread, food banks and what can you do? Gotta survive? Oh, butter, chicken and rice. Very good. Actually, I shouldn't do it, but there's two servings and they haven't caught me yet. Right. So I going back in for 1130, they have a nice little salad, white rice with butter chicken.

MG: So for agencies like the Scott Mission, the cost of running their food programmes is getting higher by the day. Holly Thompson is director of communications at the Mission.

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The demand for a hot meal, ready-made meals have gone up almost 50 per cent. Prices have gone up for everyone they've gone to for you and me, but they've also gone up for the bulk prices that we're receiving. So that price has is a is a weight on our minds, but also because our donors are also feeling that pinch, they're not able to give as much as they would like to be or they traditionally have. Our worry is being able to have enough cash flow to provide the meals and the groceries as we would like to. The need is is huge across the city. And what we have to do is leverage our ability to buy in bulk, to, you know, work with our partners who help provide food like fresh produce for our foodbank or for our hot meal programme, that kind of thing, so that we can stretch our dollar as much as possible as well to help meet that demand. We're also starting to get calls from our financial supporters who are stretched to make ends meet themselves. One of our wonderful long-term donors is on a fixed income and would usually give $50 each year at Christmas. And this year he called to ask us to pray for him because he can't send in a gift. So he's already he's on a fixed income and can't afford to buy groceries himself. So we can see that it's affecting you know, it's affecting everybody.

MG: The rising cost of food has pushed some who were just making ends meet over the edge.

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People who have never asked for help before are in a difficult place where they need to. I don't want to say, you know, like be humble because food is a right. Like the ability to access food should be universal. But that's how people feel, is that they're coming to the food bank and they're being humbled, but they should be received with as much dignity and love as possible. It's always difficult to see people who are suffering, but it's a joy to see people who are receiving what they need.

MG: And one of those people is this Toronto single mom.

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This past three years, quite difficult. Without food banks, I would not be able to feed myself and my son. Big part of our success is Scott Mission. Things are looking up and we're about to graduate from college, so great, computer programming from Seneca College. And yes, Scott Mission played a big role in that. I didn't have to worry about we have to get money for food. You start to believe in humanity. There are people who care. But on the other side, there is definitely I think this is desperation. You can sense it in the air because it has a lot of people in need and there is help. There is help those people who care and humanity is alive.

MG: That sense of humanity is something that Ron Dunn knows well. Ron is the chief development officer at Souls Harbour Rescue Mission in Halifax. Ron, good morning.

RON DUNN: Good morning.

MG: Seeing the price of food go up, as we say, right across the country, how are those rising food prices impacting your kitchen at Soul's Harbour?

RON DUNN: Well, I think you know, like we just heard from our friends at Scott Mission, the costs are up, the packaging is shrinking. So, you know, we traditionally do really well it, you know, doing with, doing a lot with a little. I mean, I think that's part of the the the magic that happens at missions and food banks across the country. But here specifically, you know, our cooks and our our chefs are are simply being more creative and stretching it as far as it can go. The real concern for us, though, really, is the amount of people who are coming in and what the effect, the long term effect of of this new trend. I want to call it a trend because I hope it ends. But this new reality that we're in, what's the long term effect? And I think that's what we talk about, you know, kind of around our table is, you know, what's the sustainability of of being able to increase and get more food to more people. We're blessed that are donors, even though things are tight everywhere, they've been very kind to us and they get it. You know, they understand if if everybody can just do a little bit, then, you know, we'll be able to make sure that everybody gets fed.

MG: Can you take me back into the kitchen and just talk about how you are managing to keep up with the fact that purchasing costs are going up? And as you said, what's in the package seems to be getting smaller.

Speaker 4: Well, you know, again, it's about creativity. So, you know, Instead of maybe a turkey dinner, maybe we turn it into a turkey pasta like, you know, turkey ala king or something something that that you can just stretch and feed more people with or, you know, a lot more soups where where we may be able to do, you know, full kind of three course meals. Right. You can't even buy lettuce right now. Never mind afford it.

MG: So something like something like salads would be off that table at Soul's Harbour because of the cost of lettuce.

MG: Well, I mean, it's quite possible, right? You know, we have to every day reassess what do we have and what can we do. And also, things change because, you know, a kind owner showed up with a giant ham and not big enough to feed, you know, 400 hot meals a day, but certainly enough to turn into a split pea soup. Right. You know, with ham. So it's about creativity. It's about doing what we do out of love for others and making sure that everything we do is, you know, we're just aware of every dollar that gets donated. We're not government funded, and so every dollar that comes in is just valued. And we make sure and we've always made sure, but specifically now we have to just kind of check and double check. And, you know, we're able to do the work we do because of that.

MG: And what about your clientele? I mean, you've mentioned this just briefly, but who are you seeing coming to the mission to get a meal now?

MG: Yeah, I think the face of poverty, people always want to know, you know, what is your client look like. Our guests are everybody. You know, some people used to be donors. There's a seniors building not too far from here. And, you know, those are folks who work their whole lives that have pensions and they're just not going as far as they used to go. You know, there's there's more month at the end of the money than there is money at the end of the month. Right. And so they're struggling and they're coming to us to say, look, you know, if you can help me out with this, then we can't afford our medication or we can't afford, you know, to pay the high costs of rent and all the things that we're all kind of dealing with on a regular. So the other thing that we do is, besides food is we offer essentials like, you know, we saw almost 800 people last month and that's significantly higher. So basically they're saying, look, you know, if I can get my toiletries from here, if I can get toilet paper and, you know, toothpaste, then that's a little bit more money than they can they can afford to live on. So it's not just the food that's going up, it's everything. And so we're doing our best to fill the need.

MG: As you mentioned, you float on those donations that you received are the donations because everything is more expensive, and we heard that even just from the Scott mission, that some people are finding themselves pinched and unable to give the donations that they've given in past. Are you finding that the donations are still coming in?

MG: Well, you know, Christmas iis, of course, a magical time of year. And people are kind and generous to us all year round, but specifically during the Christmas holidays. So I can say at this time, you know, people are doing the best they can do. And, you know, people in Nova Scotia, I think, are just appreciative of the fact that, you know, a little bit can go a long way. I told your producers, you know, we had a lady who taped a loonie, a single loonie in her envelope and said, you know, 'This is all I have, you know, hopefully you can help somebody with it,' Well, first of all, you talked about humanity like that just, that speaks to the core of humanity. Right. This is somebody she was clearly a senior based on the writing. And, you know, we called to thank her. So we know that her situation is dire and she gave us a loonie and that was just probably the best donation we got that day in terms of meaning. And I think it's, it tells the greater story that, you know, we're going to dig in and help each other through these tough times. And and that's that's the magic, I think that is at Christmas, but hopefully continues all year round.

MG: You said, in some ways, that this seems like a trend, but that's you're not sure if that's the right word to use. What do you want people to understand about what's happening right now?

MG: Well, I guess the the message from our perspective is, you know, first of all, thank you. And if everybody does just a little bit, you know, buy that extra box of cereal or, you know, that extra pound of ground beef or whatever you can do, everybody can do something. And I think that is. You know, that's the Christmas miracle that we hoped for year round, but specifically at this time. And then to those that are listening, that are struggling, you know, keep going and go to Scott mission and come come to Souls Harbour Rescue Mission and visit the shelter or the food bank closest to you. You know, you don't have to be alone and we can get through this together. And I firmly believe that.

MG: Ron, glad to hear about the work that you're doing. Good luck and thanks for for that work.

RON DUNN: Thank you.

MG: Ron Dunn is the chief development officer at Souls Harbour Rescue Mission. We reached him in Halifax. Gisele Yasmeen is a senior fellow with UBC School of Public Policy and Global Affairs. For the past three decades, she's been a researcher studying food systems, including public policy and food security. She's in Ottawa this morning. So good morning to you.

GISELE YASMEEN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: We saw yesterday in Ottawa senior officials from grocery store chains being grilled by a parliamentary committee. People are trying to get to the root cause of the price of food increasing. From your perspective, what's going on here? Why is why is the cost of food going up and up?

GISELE YASMEEN: Well, I mean, these things are cyclical. You know, the problem with focussing on food prices alone is that you lose track of the big picture here. And food insecurity is is nothing new. It has been exacerbated by the pandemic. So the rise in prices due to COVID climate conflict is yet another shock to the system. But if you think of 28, I mean, you think of historically what has happened. You know, the real critical thing is to think about this as a question of poverty and inequality that is now being sharpened and made worse by the current situation.

MG: Do we have an I'll ask you about poverty in particular and the use of that word? Do we have a sense as to the scale of food insecurity across Canada right now?

GISELE YASMEEN: Well, yes, if I'm going by the latest statistics by Dr. Valerie Trussell at University of Toronto in her her approved statistics programme, she estimates that one in six households or 5.8 million people, including 1.4 million people, children, sorry, in Canada are food insecure. So again, this is the figures were unacceptable before the pandemic, but now the situation is getting even worse. And of course, this is a global phenomenon. It's not you know, we are a wealthy country, but this is happening around the world. So. So, yes. And the stats here are really they're shocking. So about 52% of those suffering from food insecurity are actually working or self-employed with the balance on fixed incomes. So, you know, seniors, people on social assistance or disability, like some of the individuals that you were interviewing.

MG: You'll talk to people in the food security world and they will say to your point that this is not about food security or food insecurity. This is about poverty. And we need to talk about poverty. Why is that important to use that word?

GISELE YASMEEN: Well, it's important to talk about poverty and inequality because, you know, the thing is, we do have the means to support everyone on this planet. Never mind everyone in Canada with the resources that are available. But unfortunately, wealth is concentrated with the few. So again, this is what's at the heart of the issue. And there are structural patterns, too, Matt, that I want to mention. So female lone parent households have the highest rates of food insecurity in Canada at nearly 40%, so 38%. There are other communities as well. Individuals who are living alone are at risk. Racialized communities, first nations, Inuit peoples are at much higher risk. And it varies by province. So provincial policies have a huge impact. I mean, the federal government also can have a positive impact if we don't get to the root of the issue, and we still go back to this idea that somehow charity is going to solve this conundrum, we're, you know, dreaming in technicolour. The other issue that I was happy to hear in, in terms of the individuals you interviewed was framing food as a human right. And shelter is also a human right. And there's the link with housing. So again, the cost of housing is skyrocketing, so renters are particularly vulnerable. Even luxury ski places like Whistler are having huge food insecurity issues because the housing is so unaffordable.

MG: Let me ask you about charity. I mean, we know the recent report from food banks, Canada, that the number of people using food banks is at an all time high. You will see getting into the holiday season, food drives across this country. I mean, full disclosure, CBC is involved in a number of them that are meant to create momentum for donations to those food drives. Is that a distraction from the issue, do you think?

GISELE YASMEEN: Well, it's it's a conundrum in that it is a patch. I mean, it's a Band-Aid solution.

MG: Which is what food banks were meant to be. They were meant. To be a temporary solution.

GISELE YASMEEN: Exactly. They were brought in maybe 40 years ago when there was an economic downturn and all of the food bank leadership, as well as community food centres and others working in the space. You know, 95% of the leadership will say they don't want to be in business. I mean, they want to put themselves out of business, that they want to see social and economic policies change so that we don't individuals and households don't have to rely on the charitable sector. So as long as that that larger framing and larger context is kept in mind, that's where we we really need to have the conversation, particularly as we move towards, you know, what is obviously needed is more inclusive economies and green economies to, you know, we've got that challenge ahead of us, too. But there are solutions.

MG: And yet you're hearing from Scott Mission, from Soul's Harbour, from food banks, community food centres across this country about overwhelming demand. And the fact that there are people who are showing up who might have been donors before, might have been volunteers who are now clients, and that those institutions, they're now institutions are helping make those individuals kind of close that gap. So what happens if those places can't keep up if because of the cost of food, as we heard it, Souls Harbour, the turkey dinner turns into turkey soup. It turns into we can't give enough turkey soup to the people who are in this line.

GISELE YASMEEN: It's absolutely tragic that and there are stories of even in Ottawa here where I am. People coming into food banks and soup kitchens, food centres and collapsing because they haven't eaten in two or three days. So again, this we have to think of temporary approaches and temporary supports, but not lose sight, not lose the eyes on the prize of the structural changes that are needed so that we, you know, can't keep going back to this as a solution in the medium- to long-term.

MG: Canada came up with a national food policy in 2019, and part of that is about naming that idea of food as a human right. Where's that policy now?

GISELE YASMEEN: Well, you know, it is a good step forward. But, you know, of course, COVID happened. And so, you know, the implementation of that policy was very much thrown into emergency mode. Now, a lot of good things happen to try to do the best Canada could. I mean, we had the cerb, we had cash transfers, we had other approaches that that kept people afloat as best they could. There has been some forward movement on the commitment for Canada to develop a national school food programme. So right now Minister Gould actually has a survey open, has been doing a lot of consultations on that. Again, it's not a magic bullet, but it's part of a larger suite of of policies and programmes that can make a difference. So, you know, but the provinces have a role to play here. So really I think where the challenge is with the implementation of the national SCOOP, the national food policy is to work hand in glove with the people, with the provinces and other orders of government, including large cities, including Indigenous governments. I think where we see some real traction in terms of lower food insecurity figures are, for example, in provinces where there are policies and programmes both economic and social. Chill in place that have a positive impact in terms of reducing poverty and inequality.

MG: And if we don't deal with this, we just have a minute or so left. If we don't deal with this. When you see what's happening right now. What are you most concerned about?

GISELE YASMEEN: Well, what I what I'm seeing right now, what I'm most concerned about is missing an opportunity to recover if there's such a thing as recovering from COVID climate conflict in a manner that is truly inclusive and sustainable. You know, in that larger sense. But I do think I am hopeful. Personally, I'm optimistic. I do think there's potential. If you look at countries like Korea, there has been huge steps forward in terms of transforming their food system to address both food insecurity as well as health and environmental challenges. I know Canada is different, but I am seeing steps in the right direction. I'm seeing community activism too, which is giving me hope.

MG: That hope is important in the face of what people are dealing with right now. Gisele, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

GISELE YASMEEN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Gisele, Yasmeen, senior fellow with UBC School of Public Policy and Global Affairs. That is The Current for this Tuesday QS. Up next on CBC Radio One. Before we go, we want to take a moment to Mark today. It is December the sixth, 33 years since 14 women were killed at École Polytechnique in Montreal. This is the CBC News report from that night.

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REPORTER: 14 students dead, all women. Another dozen people were hurt, caught in a rampage that witnesses called a human hunt with the gunman yelling, I want women. The eyewitness accounts were horrifying.

WITNESS 1: [French speech] I went down to the second floor, says this student. There were two people on the floor.

WITNESS 2: The gun was stuck and I thought it was a joke. So I wait. And he went away and tried to help a girl. And he came after her and he tried to shoot me because I wasn't being a girl.

REPORTER: So what did you do?

WITNESS 2: I lay down and the fake, the dead.

REPORTER: Apparently, the gunman walked into a full classroom, about 60 people. He had a 22 calibre rifle. Some witnesses say he separated the men from the women, sent the men outside, and then he started shooting. Police say after doing that, he moved in hallways and started shooting again. The victims were found on three different floors.

MG: That was Paul Workman reporting from Montreal on December the sixth, 1989. On the 25th anniversary of the shooting, one of the survivors, Nathalie Provost, spoke with CBC Montreal's Debra Arbec. They met at the Polytechnic, which Provo makes a point of visiting because she says the school feels like family to her. And so on this day, we will leave you with Nathalie Provost and her reflections on this day. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and we will talk to you tomorrow.

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NATHALIE PROVOST: Marc Lepine went to my classroom is e ask the boys to to get out and you just put the woman all in the corner and you told us that we were there because we are feminist, which I when I told them that, no, we're not. But is is shotted my colleagues and me and went away. I was only 23 years old and all the doors were open to me at that time. And I imagined that it would be the same for all my life. So I didn't have- I cannot imagine that I was a feminist because I haven't fight anything. So I didn't. I told him, No, no, no, I haven't fight, I, I, I'm just here at Polytechnique studying like the guys. It's just after that I realise that living like I do, working, having an engineering job, having kids and still working is, is acting as a feminist because my, my, my day to day life, I stand for equality between men and women. And that's then that I realised that I cannot say that I am not because I am. My reading is something very important to me. I am an engineer. I'm still member of [unitelligible] de Quebec. I don't even need to be an official engineer like I am because these are ways for me to say to honour the possibility I have that my classmates will never have. They were never able to be engineers, to complete. And we were some of them were finishing. They still have one, two, three, four exams and it was it. They were engineers.

DEBRA ARBEC: You've talked about Marc Lepine and about, you know, people like Marc Lepine need help. You feel for his family, for him as a human being.

NATHALIE PROVOST: He was you lost hope in humanity and losing hope in humanity. He lost his own humanity and he did something totally awful. But as a society, I think we have difficulties to to find them and to help those people. What can we do to to to be able to stop them just before before they lose something so precious that you can kill people.

DEBRA ARBEC: Have you have you forgiven Marc Lepine?

NATHALIE PROVOST: Well, yes, I think so. But I'm not sure it's such a big word. Sometimes I would say yes spontaneously, sometimes no. I am a mother. I don't think I would be able to forgive him if it would be one of my kids.

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