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The Current Transcript for December 2, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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It's extraordinary. And I didn't realise how anxious I was all the time till I got out of there.

MATT GALLOWAY: Vicky Levack is 32 years old and for years she's been living in a nursing home because of a lack of supportive housing for people with disabilities in Nova Scotia. Now she finally is in her own home in 30 minutes, when long awaited personal freedom feels like and how this pilot project could help others in a similar way. Also this morning, scientists say more than a million species are at risk globally. A UN conference on biodiversity begins next week in Montreal. Coming up, the Tanzanian woman at the centre of the fight to heal our relationship with nature. And later,

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I think we wake when the dust settles, we'll be very proud of the steps we've taken.

MG: After three games, three losses and two goals. Canada's World Cup is over in Qatar. Coming up, what the tournament revealed about team Canada and what needs to be done before this country holds the next men's World Cup in four years. We begin, though, in Kyiv where the lights are off, but life continues. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Ukrainians face winter with disruptions to power and heat

Guest: Roman Moraru-Burlesku, Yuliia Sachuk, Iuliia Mendel

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[Indistinct chatter]

MG: Scenes from a double kidney transplant and Cherkasy Ukraine. The power went out during this procedure. Luckily, generators kicked in across Ukraine. Electricity is unreliable as Russian attacks have damaged large swathes of the grid, leaving people in the dark. And now that winter weather is here in the cold as well. We'll hear more about the attacks in just a moment. But first, Dr. Roman Moraru-Burlesku, who was one of the doctors performing that kidney transplant. Doctor, hello.

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: Hello.

MATT GALLOWAY: You were just in the operating room. You were just doing a surgery? Yes?

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: Yes. Yes. I have a very hard to operate operation today. It was [unintelligible] to me. When we go out bladder, we [unintelligible] in bladder and we make a new bladder for the man from his intestine.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are the conditions like that you're operating in? Do you have do you have electricity right now?

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: Today. We have electricity all day. And it's it was a wonderful day when we have electricity, but it's not every day. Yesterday, we don't have light, maybe 15 hours in my cleaning. And we worked on the generation, generations.

MATT GALLOWAY: With the generator.

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: Yeah. Yeah. The generators.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me what's what that's like. How difficult is it to do your job when the power is not stable?

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: It's very difficult. You know, I said to my colleagues a few days ago as an example, that week we were forced to go to the [unintelligible] and near the front line it's maybe 30 kilometres from zero line of the battle field and we go there to collect donor kidneys. And when we returned to the clinic with two kidneys already in thermal containers and the recipients were taken to the operation room. The light- the lights went out and it's terrible. And what should we do? Unfortunately, we don't know what will happen next day or next hour. We have two patients and two organs outside the human body. And this is a very risky situation. But we can't stop. And we didn't stop. We preserved our patients go home Monday, as he need for haemodialysis kidneys are working now. But it's very hard because we can't prognosis anything situation, what will be in the few hours. And when we take the donor's kidney and near of us, maybe 15 kilometres, was Russian troops attached to another hospital and a child who have problems and the child died. It's really hearr broken, the situation. And if I have all day light in my hospital. But at my home there all day. It went out and my two childs came to study in the school by the Internet because it stopped all. All the lives stopped when the lights went out.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's amazing that you were still able to do those transplants, given the fact that, as you said, the lights were on and then off and you were operating by generator. How did you manage to do that?

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: We must do that. We have a patients and we have three generators in my hospital. And in each campus of my hospital, we have generators and it's working automatically and when the lights went out. But we have another problem. We have almost two weeks supply of food and gas. But if situations will be prolonged, we don't know what we do next, unfortunately.

MATT GALLOWAY: That you may run out of fuel for those generators.

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are there decisions you have to make about what surgeries you can't do because the power is not consistent?

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: Yeah. Yes, of course we do. But we can do. I need to say that We can do, and we must do all of our operations every day. And we do it now. We do it now no matter what. We need to live. We need to live in this situation because if we stop our battle tomorrow, we don't have our country.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is the hardest part of this for you?

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: The hardest part in this situation, it's my wife and my children. When I must work in my hospital and I can't help them with their problems and we can't connect, we don't have Internet. I don't know where they are, what are they doing, if they're in safe or not when we have Russian attacks. It's a big problem. I don't understand what I see at home and will I see my home today or not?

MATT GALLOWAY: Doctor, thank you for talking to us about the work that you're doing. Please stay safe. And good luck in that work.

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: Thank you. Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take care. Bye bye.

DR. ROMAN MORARU-BURLESKU: Bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Roman Moraru-Burlesku is a doctor of oncology and transplant policy in Cherkasy, Ukraine. Iuliia Sachuk is the head of the NGO Fight for right. It's the emergency response for Ukrainians with disabilities. Iuliia, hello.

IULIIA SACHUK: Hello.

MATT GALLOWAY: We know that the power outages are impacting everyone in Ukraine. What are you hearing from people with disabilities about? About what their day to day lives are like?

IULIIA SACHUK: People with disabilities are facing a lot of challenges connected to blackouts. People who lost their connection with their family members with people whom they can ask about support. For example, the blind people can't call somebody and they can't use the assistive technologies like screen readers, etc.. The same situation for deaf people who can't get information in accessible formats, for example, just in use with a sign language interpretation. Or again, to connect or to read something about is happening. For people with physical disabilities, it's not possible to use elevators. It's not possible to recharge the batteries if you use, for example, electric wheelchairs and a lot a lot of other challenges connected with assistive technologies and technologies which give people with disabilities possibility to live and survive.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is your organisation able to do to help those individuals? We spoke earlier in the war with people who, to your point, might have physical disabilities. They may be isolated. And this was before the power had been cut out on a regular basis. So now that there are blackouts, what can your group do to help those who are stuck in their apartment and unable to move?

IULIIA SACHUK: We continue to do what we what we can do. We launched Taplow, a project to help people with disabilities during the winter and to be provides them with food and equipment and visited different as well facilities to have electricity like generators and etc. We still collect the resources to provide more help. But yeah, now we are launching and trying to have connections through our volunteers for people who are in place and not lost connect to lost connection with those people. And again, we continue to evacuate people to safety where they can be as they can receive all necessary help because a lot of centres. Again, the main aim of which to provide a support are inaccessible. And even if you can go for example for this community centres, they can be inaccessible for you and again you can't come back home because of elevators and etc.

MATT GALLOWAY: I can hear it in your voice. It sounds like exhausting work.

IULIIA SACHUK: Oh yes. It's work for more than nine months, near 24 for seven. And yeah, it's not easy, but again, we hope that and we are confident in our victory and we are doing what we can do in our own front line, helping those with disabilities in Ukraine.

MATT GALLOWAY: Iuliia, thank you for telling us about the work that you're doing and good luck.

IULIIA SACHUK: Thank you. Bye.

MATT GALLOWAY: Iuliia Suchak is the head of the NGO Fight for Right. The Emergency Response for Ukrainians with disabilities. Iuliia Mendel is a former spokesperson for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and the author of The Fight of Our Lives. She is in Kyiv. Yulia Mendel, hello to you.

LULIIA MENDEL: Hi, Matt. Thank you for having me.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thanks for being here. What's the power situation in Kiev today?

LULIIA MENDEL: Well, right now I'm sitting without lights. We are having the cut offs every day. And it's better when we at least have some schedule. But after Russian attacks that are happening almost every week, we usually have emergency situations. And last week, I was sitting without light and heating and water for 36 hours. And it was not even the worst case because I was talking to other people and some of them spent like 48 hours without anything is on the Kyiv. If you talk about my relatives in [unintelligible], which was the occupied region recently. I know that my mother does not still have heating for like a month and doesn't have water at all. And they had lives just two days ago on.

MATT GALLOWAY: Now, what happened to your foot because of the lack of power?

LULIIA MENDEL: Oh, well, yeah. This is like the secondary consequence. You don't. I don't want to be victimised on one hand, but this is like the things that are happening to many people around here. Like when Putin attacked for the first time on 10th of October, for the first time after the beginning of large scale war, you know, in some time then we had to economise the light. And the light was off in many yards and in many streets. And I just did not see the steps and fell from the steps. So I broke the foot and I have complications. Now I live on the 15th floor. So it's quite difficult for me to move downstairs exactly what Iuliia has been saying earlier.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said that Ukrainians are fighting a war not just against Russian troops, but against the dark and the cold as well. It's the beginning of December. Winter is really setting in. How would you describe the morale of people in the face of of everything that we've been hearing about?

LULIIA MENDEL: No, I've seen some numbers that say that there was a small immigration wave. It's very small comparing to the beginning of war. But if I stay here in Kyiv and talk to the people, to my friends, to the neighbours, when I see the steel and freezing bad traffic in Kyiv and it's very hard to find a parking lot, I understand that people really, they do not want to leave the country. They feel like it's our home and it's very difficult to go through this. This is very difficult, very difficult and very exhausting on a physical level. But psychologically, I'm talking to people and they say, no, this is our home and we know that we need to endure it. And really, nobody expects that this winter is going to be good. The economy's bad, the jobs have been lost, you know, and all this situation with critical infrastructure, our weapons are power banks, candles, generators that are sold out. And actually, the faith in ourselves, because we believe that what our emergency workers doing, what our doctors are doing, what our teachers are doing. This is a heroism. You know, they work in so difficult conditions and they are saving lives, they are helping, they are working non-stop. And we are blessed to have our people here and to try to keep this country alive during this terrible time.

MATT GALLOWAY: Time in the midst of, as you say, this terrible time. I've seen extraordinary photos of people who are trying to just live their lives, people who are still going to restaurants and ordering what's available. Was images of the key Philharmonic performing on stage that was lit by lanterns, for example. What is it that is kind of behind that, that inspiration to continue to live their life in the midst of all of this stuff?

LULIIA MENDEL: For me personally, it's my people. It's every Ukrainian who feels that Ukrainian identity is so important these days. But it's also the unity and the feeling of help to each other that we want to provide an understanding and kindness that appeared during the war because we feel like one united organism that fight against a deadly virus. But let me say that we are approaching to the new year in Christmas holidays. And, you know, for many people, this is a big saying. Are we going to celebrate; is that actually appropriate to celebrate? But then we see the soldiers who say, like our kids, they deserve to have the Christmas tree. And so there is this big thought that Russians just cannot steal our Christmas. We understand that we need to have extra security measures like not to gather in big groups. You know, we will not have like fireworks, probably we will not have lights as used to have or Christmas fairs. But at the same time, it's, you know, people want to celebrate life. And this is very important when there is this death threat, when there are so many things which showed threat to our very existence, to celebrate life. It's not like, you know, we are going around cheerfully, you know, and just, you know, having fun here. But we appreciate every moment of normal life because the reality is happening right now. And we do not know if the future is going to be for every person who stays alive right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's one thing that you have seen that gives you some inspiration, some hope in the midst of all of this? One of those scenes of of people living life.

LULIIA MENDEL: Well, I think these are my neighbours who will go through these hardships every day and who went through the missiles. I have, I have a friend who delivered her daughter in October, and I saw how strong she became as a personality and as a woman. She was hosted by a Czech Republic and by good people who gave her so much for her kids. And then she saw another Ukrainian woman who was in big need and gave all the things to her. And she came back to Ukraine to deliver to here. And in October, she had this beautiful girl. She takes care about her and all the people around. They bring her clothes and food and all the needed staff and support. And this shows that we really appreciate life and we want to build our future.

MATT GALLOWAY: This war has gone on for ten months now and we saw this week the US President Joe Biden meeting with Emmanuel Macron, president of France, and they talked a lot about Ukraine. What do you want to see from Ukraine's allies, including Canada right now?

LULIIA MENDEL: Well, thank you. First of all, the biggest thank you from me and from every Ukrainian. The opinion polls show that 80% of Ukrainians understand that we won't be able to hold by ourselves. This unity of the Western countries and of the civilised world is crucial for our existence. And we ask to stay united and to understand how things are important these days, even after ten months of war. We we are blessed to have your understanding and to have your support. And we ask to stay with us united as much as it's needed to actually we in this war.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are you worried about? Winter, as I say, is just beginning.

LULIIA MENDEL: I'm, of course, worried about the fatigue that can happen in the world. And I am, of course, worried about how we are going to survive because we see a lot of concerns from the regional authorities and from the national authorities. And to be frank, Matt, it's so difficult to stay in the apartment and every time to hear this explosions when my windows are trembling and just to understand that somebody maybe is dying there, somebody's apartment or house is being burned right now to hear these explosions and to film them from the window. And, you know, and not to understand where is the end of this. So, you know, psychological pressure, physical pressure, economy and fatigue are the biggest concerns. The only way to stand against this is to have faith, to have hope and to stand united.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yulia Mandell, I'm glad to talk to you. Take good care. And thank you very much.

LULIIA MENDEL: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Met Iullia Mandell is a former spokesperson for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and the author of The Fight of Our Lives. She was in Kiev. You CBC News is up next. And then.

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Going to the grocery store, I felt so frickin normal and I was like, this is the greatest thing in my life. And I'm like, I'm getting overly excited about going to the grocery store, which is something people take for granted.

MATT GALLOWAY: Vicky Levack is a disability rights advocate in Halifax. For the first time in her life, she's living in her own place. A monumental change from where Vickie lived before in a nursing home. She'll tell us about her newfound freedom and what she's learning to cook in her new home. That's coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

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Disability rights advocate finally allowed to move out of nursing home

Guest: Vicky Levack

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, pushing for a new international agreement on biodiversity as climate change contributes to the disappearance of hundreds of thousands of species. And a post-mortem on Canada's historic run at the World Cup. But first, what a difference a new home can make.

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MG: We have an update now on a story that we brought you last year. We met a woman named Vicky Levack. She's 31 years old and we visited her in her room at a nursing home in Halifax.

VICKY: Let's be honest, it's nursing home. It's a hospital ish setting. There are way too many rules that don't apply to me because they're for people with dementia. If you live in your own home, you make the rules and you are not subject to the will of others. And most of the food here is going to be quite frank, it's awful. Most of it caters to people with no teeth. And obviously I have teeth. It's only mashed potatoes or [unintelligible] that I could not even look at mashed potatoes. I've never felt at home here. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it.

MG: Vicki has cerebral palsy and uses a motorised chair. She's lived in the nursing home for a decade.

VOICE: I'll keep that one up, too.

VICKY: It's like miscellaneous.

MG: A year later, Vicky Levack says she is finally free.

VICKY: I didn't think this was going to come. You know, that's just hitting me now. Like, right now.

MG: Right now we're recording as Vicki is moving out of the nursing home and into her own place for the first time. It is a shared condo in downtown Halifax.

VICKY: There's a little part of me that is sad, but there is a bigger part of me dancing right now, going, I did. I did it.

MG: This move was a long time coming for Vicky. She's part of a group of people with disabilities who have fought for years to be de-institutionalised. A Nova Scotia, court agreed, finding that it is discriminatory to house people in places like nursing homes and psychiatric hospitals because of the disability. The province tried to appeal that, but the Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear that appeal.

VICKY: I worked my butt off for ten years.

MG: Vicki's move is part of a pilot programme, and a few days ago she said goodbye to her room and her friends at the nursing home.

VICKY: It's not like I'm moving across the country. I'm literally moving across [unintelligible].

VOICE: Good luck on your move. We're going to miss you.

VICKY: I'll never miss you guys, too but, like, I don't know how to make you stop crying. And I'm sorry because I have to leave in order to be happy.

VOICE: I know. Can I have a picture of you.

VICKY: Steal one off my Facebook.

VOICE: Because I love you, Vicki. And my heart would be broken.

VICKY: Oh, I'm sorry. That's not why I'm doing this. I don't want to make anybody sad, but I have to do this to be healthy.

VOICE: I know. Vicky.

MG: That was on it. Vicky Levack moving day. She is now settling into her new place.

VICKY: Sort out the boxes that we have to take down to the basement. They're empty now. We've just got to get rid of them.

MG: And she joins us from her new apartment. Vicky, good morning.

VICKY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How are you doing?

VICKY: I'm fabulous. How about yourself?

MG: Fabulous. That's what I like to hear. Tell me what it feels like to be in your new place.

VICKY: It's astonishing. How, you know, two weeks can change a person's life. I'm no longer had to take my anxiety meds. Since I've moved here, I've been able to skip that. Because I'm not as anxious. I make the rules my own home. It's been a little weird for me because people are asking me questions that I don't have the answers to because I've never had to think about it before. The first day I would go grocery shopping, like, the assistant, she said, What brand of orange juice do you like? And I'm like, Oh no. How am I supposed to know that? I've never had to buy orange juice. You know, it's just there. A do it, do it. Do you like this or that? But I literally don't know because I've never had to do this.

MG: It's a learning experience.

VICKY: Yeah. So think that you would feel better as somebody who's lived there for a long time? I can't answer yet, but I'm trying to figure it out. So far, I'm doing a good job.

MG: What was that first night like in your new place?

VICKY: It felt very weird. That's what it hit me, like I was, you know, like I don't have to go back ever again, and I'm not going to lie, I had myself a good little cry. Good. I was glad I don't have to go back to a place that I felt scared - and I'll say now - that traumatised me a little bit. These two experiences. Not with the others [unintelligible] but with the way, you know, things were run and the rules that were in place. I mean, the way, you know, you throw everybody with disabilities together, no one could get exactly what they need. So I felt very guilty for asking for things because they were so busy. And I don't want it to feel guilty about that anymore. You know, and the people, you're like. I use that to explain to caregivers like this is why we do these things, because they would argue with me, you know. Well, that's the way they taught us to do it in school. And now with these caregivers that I have now, I just tell them this is how we do things. And they go, okay, you know your body better than we do. And that was so refreshing. And I was like, I don't have to go 30 minute speech about why we do things the way we do? No, of course not. You tell us to do so. They were there to do it. Hmm.

MG: When you and I talked before, you talked about how one of the things you wanted to do is learn how to cook because as we heard, you hated those mashed potatoes.

VICKY: Yeah, well, more potatoes for Vicky.

MG: No more mashed potatoes for Vicky. What you've been cooking?

VICKY: I made it first night. I made [unintelligible] and sausage. I was going to make a pesto sauce, but we ran out of pesto, so I used tomato sauce and goat cheese. It was pretty fricking good. I was proud of myself that I made something that didn't suck. And then I made tacos. Turned out I make really good tacos. Um, and, uh, I get a chicken recipe I want to try next. So we're going to do that.

MG: And it's not just you. You have a roommate as well, right?

VICKY: Yes, I do. Her name is Jennifer Farley, and she is the reason this whole pilot like happened. It was her brainchild and she took it to I would ask the independent living Nova Scotia, who then took it to the government. Um, so without Jen and the generosity of Jen's family who purchased the guy next door so that more people could move in, this wouldn't happen. So I. I owe the Farleys and especially Jen a lot.

MG: Just tell me briefly how this pilot project works.

VICKY: So some of the money comes from Department of Health. Some of the money comes from the Department of Community Services. So all I have to do is look at my life and I don't worry about any of that.

MG: And you have caregivers who come in every day.

VICKY: Yes. Yes. There's three at all times. We were having one person overnight, which wasn't enough for the four of us who were going to live here because of like [unintelligible] relate, lived in one unit. And then the other unit also has two individuals with disabilities. One person doing all that wasn't enough. So we, they got funding. I learnt this as of yesterday. I was approved for a second person for the overnight, so now we've just got to find them. The problem is I wake overnight like, you know, I [unintelliglbe]sleep and that's being her [unintelligible]. Because who wants to stay up all night? Well, like. But I mean, we need it, right?

MG: You feel like you're well. You feel like you're well cared for there?

VICKY: Oh, absolutely. I mean, we are having trouble getting enough staff. But staffing has been a problem all over the country three years. So I was expecting that. But I have never been we have never been left, you know, unattended. I'm very well cared for and very respected. I you know, I feel like these caregivers, like many of the caregivers in the nursing home, do it for the money. When we tell you that right now, because the money is, in my opinion, although it's improved by the government, the money is not enough. And the government should increase wages for caregivers of all capacities because this is a hard frickin job. But they're doing it because they want us to have full, healthy lives and they want to help us do that. On the ones that we have not had, what I would consider a bad caregiver, somebody use it for the wrong reason and the wrong reasons for me are I always want to help the poor little disabled people. You know, and I would say, like, you get though that in this line of work and it's all about self-glorification of what [unintelligible] person I am. And I haven't experienced any of that because, you know, when somebody tells you they're a good person, they're probably not.

MG: You've had this huge change in your life. And I remember when we talked before, I mean, it was almost like you were mourning the life that you couldn't lead and the things that you couldn't have in your future. And now you've said, I mean, you can, you know, get your own place. You can learn how to cook. You could get a job if you wanted to. You can go to bed when you want to. You could get a boyfriend if you wanted to.

VICKY: Yeah. By the way, boys, I'm single.

MG: Well, I mean, what is it like? It must just be, can you imagine this kind of change?

VICKY: It's extraordinary. You know, I didn't realise how anxious I was all the time till I got out of there and I was like, wait a minute. I can feel my heart trying to get out of my chest. That's a new feeling for me. I'm not shaking with anxiety. I'm not checking over my shoulder like that's new for me. And then I didn't realise how that wasn't normal because it became so normalised in a way that I don't have to do that anymore. Like I said, I was able to like- I still have anxeity but at night time because I get anxious that night due to some poor experience. But during the day, I don't have to take it.

MG: Your life has changed. But as you have said, the lives of other people with disabilities who are living, institute in institutions, their lives haven't changed. What do you make of that? I mean, part of this is you're in you're involved in in a court case that is about this issue, but also this is a larger issue in Nova Scotia. How much has changed for people with disabilities who have been?

VOICE: It's not much. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The only reason I got this was because the generosity of Jen's family but the fact that I didn't shut out, the fact that I'm being discriminated against, you know, and I knew the losses. I sort of I knew what my human rights were because my parents draw that into me at a very young age. Don't let people tell you you can't have that because you are human and you are not asking too much. You're just asking what everybody else has and doesn't have to fight for. So, you know, go forth and change the world. And really trying to change my little corner of it. I mean, I'm running municipally in 2025, so that's a start. And I've already got people clamouring to be my campaign manager, so that's pretty cool.

MG: Do you think this pilot project will be a point of inspiration for other people like yourself who were institutionalised, that this will be them wait to get the freedom that you have?

VICKY: I hope so. But a lot of people, at least in the institution I was in, a lot of people have been so conditioned that - especially the older ones - that are like, well, I'm being taken care of and I have a roof over my head, so what do I have to complain about? You know, they feel like they're being done a favour, you know, and I'm like, No, no, you're not being done a favour. You're human. You have rights. And you don't have to put up with anybody's crap and they feel like they have to because it's like one thing fitting, bathed and clothed. So. So I guess that's all I deserve.

MG: And you deserve a lot more.

VICKY: Yeah, everybody does.

MG: Yeah. This is going to be your first holiday season in your own place. And I know when we talked last year, you had all sorts of Christmas decorations and boxes in your room. What have you got planned for this year?

VICKY: Oh, well, I already decorated the tree and it's really nice. And I have two cats now. One of them doesn't like me very much, but one of them fairly doesn't like anybody. So I don't feel so bad. I'm hoping to warm up to me, but yeah, they're both really good cats and I like having pets because they can't get in the nursing home.

MG: It feels like you have control of your life.

VICKY: Exactly. I am a full fledged human being, a person who's doing normal human being things. You know, going to the grocery store, I felt so frickin normal. And I think that's the greatest thing in my life. And I'm getting overly excited about going to the grocery store, which is something people take for granted. You know, I don't like [unintelligible] but you have no idea how lucky you are. You get to choose what you're going to eat, that is within reason of your budget. Now food prices are exorbitant. We have to do something about it. But they get choices that I didn't have till now.

MG: Vicky, I'm really glad to talk to you again.

VICKY: Oh, yeah. Totally.

MG: It sounds like it's so great that you're in your place and it's so great that you are learning how to live in that place. And I wish you the best of luck with the cooking, too. That's going to be fun.

VICKY: Yeah. And just so you know, I get my birthday in my new apartment and then I'm having a housewarming, plus Vicky's birthday, and it's going to be like [unintelligible] because I invited 83 people by mistake, um, cause I just went over [unintelligible] and I was like, I like you, I like you, I like you.

MG: Have a happy birthday. And I'm glad to talk to you again. And good luck in your new place.

VICKY: Thank you so much, Matt. Have a lovely day.

MG: Take care. Bye bye.

VICKY: Bye.

MG: Vicky Levack is a disability rights activist in Halifax. And after years of living in a nursing home because of a lack of supportive housing for people with disabilities, she is now in her own place. Today is Vicky's 32nd birthday. Happy birthday, Vicky. And as you heard her say, she's going to celebrate big this weekend. We asked her for a birthday song request. This is it, Sucker by the Jonas Brothers.

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[Song]

MG: Very occasionally. The Current takes requests. That's special for Vicki Levack on her 32nd birthday. The Jonas Brothers and Sucker. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Wanted to give you a preview of a story that we will bring you next week on this programme.

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VOICE: Hey, Alexa, what should I have for dinner?

ALEXA: Okay, for dinner. I recommend lemon pasta from feel good food. 20 minutes to make. Serves six. What would you like? Start recipe. Send it to your phone or hear next recipe.

MG: Eight years ago, it was the biggest thing in tech. A little speaker that could give you all the answers, including as you heard, what to make for dinner. Amazon's Alexa has since become a household name, but it now turns out the technology might be in trouble because it's not making money. Here's Eugene Kim, the chief tech correspondent for Insider.

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EUGENE KIM: But Amazon's vision was always to sell these devices at cost, make it affordable so they could reach a wide audience. And the goal was to generate profits and make money when people use the device to order stuff. For example, they would buy things on Amazon by talking to Alexa.

VOICE: Hey, Alexa, can I order some toilet paper?

ALEXA: Amazon's choice is Royale Velour Plush and thick toilet paper 12 mega = 48 rolls. It's $16.

EUGENE KIM: lot of those efforts effectively didn't materialise into moneymaking businesses. Your Amazon cart where you can review product. What I'm hearing is that there's just, you know, a lot of low morale, frustration, confusion over the direction of the business and just a lot of disappointment because I was on hire 10,000 people in a two year period until 2018. At one point it was just shiny, sexy team within Amazon that everyone wanted to join. And voice technology was the hottest thing in tech. But looking back over the past five years, Amazon, despite the buzz and the attention, did largely failed to create a sustainable business model around voice technology. So there's huge user engagement, people like Alexa. But in terms of making money, there's still a huge question mark around that.

MG: That's Eugene Kim, the chief tech correspondent for Insider. We'll talk more about the trouble with Alexa and what it means for the future of voice technology coming up Monday on The Current. In the meantime, if you have Alexa in your life or another one of those home assistant devices, let us know how it's working out for you. Because in addition to asking what to make for dinner or asking what the weather is, voice assistant technology has been really useful for a number of people, seniors and others. And so how do you use this technology? What does it add to your life? Or did you buy Alexa thinking that this was going to change your life? And perhaps now it's in a box in the basement? Let us know. Email us thecurrentcbc.ca and tune in Monday to hear that story. Well, coming up after your regional update, my conversation with the executive secretary of the UN Convention on Biodiversity.

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I children are making sure that we parents are able to leave behind a planet for them to be able to survive. You see, they put pressure, I will say, on governments, but is actually not pressure on governments. It's pressure on their parents who are the adults, the elders and the leaders. And now they have to be listened. Yes, because the youth are the leaders of tomorrow. So if they are not part of the discussions today, they are not part of the decisions and also understanding how these decisions were reached, then what are we leaving them behind? There will be leaders not knowing where how these decisions were arrived at because they are the ones who will implement the decisions we are taking today. Our long term vision, even of biodiversity, is 2050, when the world will be living in harmony with nature, when biodiversity will be fully managed, fully conserved, sustainably used, and resources shared equitably. And that's why it's key that they are part of their solutions. And, you know, the youth are very innovative. So innovations comes from the youth.

MG: Elizabeth Maruma says, our relationship with nature is broken. The climate crisis isn't helping. She's here in 90 seconds to talk about the mammoth goal of protecting biodiversity and where in the face of species disappearing, she finds hope. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Back in a minute. Stick around.

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Lawyer Elizabeth Maruma Mrema on how to heal our relationship with nature; and what the World Cup revealed about Team Canada

Guests: Joshua Kloke, Elizabeth Maruma Mrema

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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We have been talking as a world over the past years, increasingly urgently, in a way that, you know, all school kids get seem to get young people are marching in the streets and governments are finally taking action in serious ways around the world on the fight against climate change. But we need to bring the same level of urgency to protecting nature.

MG: That's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau talking about his goals for the Conference on Biodiversity, which opens next week in Montreal. The U.N. summit is aimed at reaching a new treaty to protect life on Earth. Scientists warn that species are going extinct at a rate unprecedented in human history. And as with climate change, the major driver in all of that is human activity. My next guest is leading the charge for a new agreement. She is executive secretary of the UN Convention on pardon me, biological diversity. Her name is Elizabeth Mrema and she is in Montreal. Elizabeth, good morning.

ELIZABETH MREMA: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. You have said that you want this conference to be - these are your words - a Paris moment for nature. You were referring to the 2015 agreement on carbon emissions that came out of the U.N. conference in Paris. What do you mean by that? What are you looking for specifically in Montreal?

ELIZABETH MREMA: Specifically in Montreal, we're looking at the negotiators, governments or parties to be able to agree on actions or a road map for repairing our relationship with nature. As the Prime Minister's mention our species going to extinct at unprecedented rate in history? When you look at, for instance, land degradation, 75% of land is degraded, 66% of the marine environment polluted. 85% of the wetlands also degraded or disappeared. 50% of coral reefs have disappeared. The recent report from the WWF talks of monitored wildlife species have dropped by 69% since 1970. So none of these figures is giving us a good number. And if this trajectory has to change, this is what we expect to happen here in Montreal.

MG: You said something interesting around that. You said that we need to heal our relationship with nature. How would you describe what that relationship looks like?

ELIZABETH MREMA: Unfortunately, we human beings are responsible for 97% of the ecosystem loss globally, 97%. And that's what need to change is our own actions. We have our leeway. Example If it's anything to go by COVID 19 and the lockdown for over two years, scientists there alleged that is the result of our relationship to nature. That is the result of extensive expansion of agricultural land, which has led to deforestation and led to human beings moving closer to the animal kingdom, in the bush, in the forests, leading to the transmission of pathogens or zoonotic diseases or viruses which are not harmful to animals but harmful to human beings. I think that is a major reminder of the relationship with nature that needs to drastically change.

MG: When did this focus for biodiversity really begin for you personally?

ELIZABETH MREMA: I come from the United Republic of Tanzania. So basically where I sit home, my traditional home in the village and I could see Mountain Kilimanjaro in front of me. And as I grew up, the whole place was black water, bushy. I mean, literally, bush ducked because of trees and vegetation. This is when I was still a small girl. And water, it was not water from the taps. This was water flowing from the mountain to the streams to virtually each and every homestead, where by then my parents, my grandparents, what they will do was just to cut basically ditch the streams in the garden. And the garden then was full of coffee and banana plantations and the place would be watering throughout. But by the time I was in secondary level, you could see those streams of water completely beginning to dry and they speak today. They do not even exist. That amount of water which was flowing in people's garden. It's completely gone. Completely. The darkness, the bush of their trees I saw as I was growing up is it disappeared? Even today, when it is too dry, you see particularly women and children walking with buckets, looking for water, which is rather a shame in an area, as I say, the slopes of the mountain. But this, again, indicates exactly what they said of human activities or nature. And for the villages, when we talk of deforestation, as I grew up, the source of energy at homesteads was firewood. And even today, for many families is still firewood. And unless there are alternatives to firewood, deforestation will continue. And of course, with deforestation, of course, less water. Not surprising. And this is what brought me to what I am doing today or the interest in environmental issues.

MG: When you see that, when you look up the mountain and you see those changes, what is that like for you?

ELIZABETH MREMA: It's rather heartening, disappointing, and especially when one wonders, What can I do as an individual to make a change? I know, like today when you read books and reports that we live in, say, the ice cap, the Mount Kilimanjaro is melting, which is true. You wake up in the morning. Some days you don't see a drop of ice. Some other days you see the entire mountain covered completely with ice. This clearly also indicates those changes. So when we talk of really action, I know human beings, people with tendencies of blaming governments. The good thing when it comes to nature, it's not the government. It's all of us. So actions need to begin with me as an individual. The government will deal with the bigger picture, but the bigger picture is the multiplication of the small, small things which are happening, which then leads to a big thing. So how can we avoid it? Individual, family level, those small, small things from happening before we can begin blaming the government? Simple things like waste management, recycling. Where I come from, sun is not an issue. There's plenty of sun. And one would have thought probably at national level, this is where solar panel energy should have been the focus to enable then the the local communities to move away from firewood. But of course, at individual family level, they cannot do it. It needs now the government to come clean so that, yes, we can blame government. But there are those actions which as individual family level we can do and make a difference.

MG: How much of the climate crisis do you think can be solved by protecting biodiversity in wild spaces?

ELIZABETH MREMA: I think for far too long the world has focussed so much on climate change and forgot that sources of climate change also have to do with the loss of biodiversity. It's only in the recent years that all of a sudden biodiversity loss has become the focus of attention and delighted that we have also realised we cannot deal with climate change without nature, without biodiversity. And yes, indeed not surprising that the climate community now is focussing on nature, biodiversity based solutions for climate. Because they realise solutions to climate is on nature and that nature or biodiversity is expected. A scientist tells us to provide 30% of the climate mitigation. That is not a small number. 30%.

MG: Can you give me an example of that 30%? What does that 30% look like that would help contribute to the fight against climate change?

ELIZABETH MREMA: If the world is covered with forests today, that forest will provide that carbon storage. To that magnitude because it will resolve the greenhouse gas emissions by that 30%. But then with continued deforestation. Then of course, that carbon storage expected will not be there.

MG: You've talked about a business case for protecting biodiversity, which is interesting because often that deforestation, that development is used as, you know, we need to do this because this is going to make money. This is going to sustain a part of the economy. And you say that there's a business case for for protecting those spaces. What is that business case?

ELIZABETH MREMA: Indeed, the World Economic Forum has told us almost 50% of the global GDP is highly moderately or highly dependent on nature. On biodiversity, specifically, 44 trillion U.S. dollars is dependent on nature. So the fact that 50% of the global economy comes from biodiversity, clearly that is a business case. Without which there will be no food. There will be no water. There will be no carbon storage. There will be no medicines. Because we know 40% of cancer treatment today come from natural ecosystem. 44 billion people actually depend on their medicines from nature. So all these figures clearly indicate the business case for nature. And that's why we're even asking the business, the private sector, the financial institutions to not only assess and measure the risks and impacts of their operations on nature, but also to be able to report and disclose those impacts dependencies, because there are opportunities there. And not only governments will be in Montreal because they're the ones leading the process of negotiations. All stakeholders will be here business, subnational governments, cities, indigenous peoples, local communities, women, youth, media. And this goes back to what I was saying. Each one of us have a role to play if we have to change this current trajectory.

MG: What do you think conferences like this can achieve? Because we just saw the recent climate change conference in Egypt and the countries that were there failed to reach an agreement on reducing emissions. So what is it that that these big gatherings, do you think in the best case scenario can achieve?

ELIZABETH MREMA: The gatherings are still important because without these gatherings, where will we find solutions, especially for issues which cut across borders? Pollution in one country is pollution in another country. Climate change when it is heavy rains here. The other side might be drought and there is that connexion. So this gathering serves that purpose, identifying common problems, common solutions to be able then to move at national level to take action, which then have multiplying effect at global level, even where there are disagreements. Remember, there are disagreements as a result of discussions.

MG: Some of those who perhaps would wonder about the value of of these sorts of meetings wrote Marching in the Streets. And they say they might be of a younger generation. And they say we're tired of waiting. And in addition to marching in the streets, they go into galleries and they throw a can of soup on a painting to say, pay attention to us and pay attention to this issue. What do you think of those sorts of actions? That sense of frustration that leads to those actions.

ELIZABETH MREMA: You see those actions, particularly the peaceful ones, have an impact. And if I use the Convention on biological diversity itself, the youth have a space. Even in the negotiations, when the youth speak, just like any other stakeholder. We only need one government delegate to say I endorse and that recommendation is taken on board. And our children are making sure that we parents are able to leave behind a planet for them to be able to survive. Not surprising. They are putting pressure on us. You see, they put pressure on governments, but is actually not pressure on governments. It's pressure on their parents. Who are the adults, the elders and the leaders. And now they have to be listened. Yes. Because this is the planet we live to them tomorrow there there's no planet B is this same planet we are sharing. And if they are not listening, what we are saying is when me and you, the older generation, I call ourselves the older generation who have been responsible for the state of affairs we have today. It means we want to disappear with our children and grandchildren because there will be nothing left behind for them. So, rightly so, they are putting pressure on us that we need to live a safe planet for them to also survive. That is one. But two, the youth are the leaders of tomorrow. So if they are not part of the discussions today, they are not part of the decisions, then what? Are we leaving them behind? There will be leaders not knowing how these decisions were arrived at because they are the ones who will implement the decisions we are taking today. Our long term vision, even of biodiversity, is 2050, when the world will be living in harmony with nature, when biodiversity will be fully managed, fully conserved, sustainably, used resources shared equitably. How many of us will be alive 2050? And that's why it's key that they are part of the negotiations, part of the solutions. And, you know, the youth are very innovative. So innovations comes from the youth.

MG: You said something really interesting there, which is that there will be a point in which the world will be living in harmony with nature. Do you believe that will get to that place where the relationship between us and nature is actually repaired?

ELIZABETH MREMA: For me. If I take the COVID lessons, we will get there. If we have not learnt from the COVID and will not get there and I wonder who has not learnt from that.

MG: But you're optimistic?

ELIZABETH MREMA: Very much so. And if the scientists, they've told us this is our last chance. So if we can't use this chance, then we are declaring that we are ready to perish. And if we perish, it means also our children perish. Is this what we want? Is parents as leaders? I don't think so. I remain optimistic.

MG: I wish you the best of luck. It's very it's important. I mean, we're all in some ways counting on this. But your optimism is is very powerful and infectious. Elizabeth, it's great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

ELIZABETH MREMA: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

MG: Elizabeth Mrema is the executive secretary of the United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity. She was in Montreal.

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MG: This is The Current. My name is Matt Galloway.

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I think we learnt that we can compete here. I mean, it's 36 years since we've been here. It's a we're breathing rare air and I think that's that's a cool experience for all of these players, the fans we've raised the bar, you know, in the way we're playing. I mean, we we came here as underdogs and our players were shown on the big stage. Many of these players are going to benefit from that. And Canada is on the map and that's all we wanted.

MG: Spoken like a coach. That was Team Canada's John Herdman after yesterday's loss to Morocco. There were high hopes for Canada's first appearance at the men's World Cup of soccer since 1986. Canada got two goals the country's first ever in cup play, although one of them was an own goal by Morocco. Canada lost all three of its games at the tournament. Joshua Kloke is a staff writer at The Athletic and the author of The Voyageurs Canada's The Canadian Men's Soccer Teams Quest to Reach the World Cup. Joshua is in Doha, Qatar, where the World Cup is taking place. Joshua, hello.

JOSHUA KLOKE: Hey, Matt, how are you?

MG: I'm very well. You wrote a piece for The Athletic, and you said Canada's World Cup was a failure, but the future appears bright. Why do you think Canada's appearance at the World Cup was a failure?

JOSHUA KLOKE: Well, this Canadian team came into the World Cup with a handful of goals. The first one was to be the first men's World Cup team from Canada to play fearless and entertaining soccer. I think for the most part they did. Other goals included being the first Canadian team to score a goal, which they did. They also included the first Canadian team to get a result, which they didn't do, and becoming the first Canadian team to get out of the group, which they didn't do. So when you achieve half, maybe less than half of your stated goals coming into the tournament, and these aren't goals that were in by any means, these are goals that John HERDMAN stated to his team and stated to the press ahead of time. So look, any time any organisation comes in with specific goals and fails to reach those goals, I think objectively we can call the tournament disappearance a failure.

MG: You just heard him, though, say that Canada's on the map. Did did Canada gain respect internationally for the way that the team played?

JOSHUA KLOKE: I can tell you firsthand that I had a number of journalists from around the world coming up to me after Canada's game against Belgium in particular, and said, A, what's what's the secret? What's happening in Canada? And B, what is this team capable of? I think we know the answer to be right now. Right. That they were the second team to to crash out of the group stage. But look, I also know that talking to John Herdman, it mattered a lot to the team that they do get that recognition because I don't think they want to be the underdog anymore. You know, John HERDMAN mentioned a few times how important it was for him to get the recognition from Terry on really one of the greatest strikers of all time. And now Belgium's assistant coach after the game in which he came up to John Irvin and said, you guys should have won that game, I think for both John and for the team. That kind of confidence matters moving forward because I think there's a number of players on this team that would have come into this tournament and said, you know, where do I belong here? I've never played in the World Cup. I've only played in North America. Can I compete on the world stage? And I think the answer is yes, they can. But could they compete for 90 minutes in every game? I think you can look at that and say, probably not.

MG: Let me ask you just one thing further about Herdman. He was the subject of a lot of international attention after his rant about Croatia. His tactics were also questioned by some over the course of this tournament. What's his reputation after this?

JOSHUA KLOKE: Yeah. I think the veneer on John Herdman is starting to come off a little bit and I say that as someone that has a lot of respect for John as a person and as a coach, considering what he's done to the programme. He's instilled a culture in this team that did not exist before. You talked to former men's national team players and they didn't have what this men's national team has in terms of the togetherness that this team enjoys. But I think, you know, there was a lot of questions coming into the tournament that if Canada succeeds, they get a result at the World Cup. Could John go elsewhere? Would the offers come in from elsewhere? And I think there were a lot of people keeping tabs on John. But I think it's fair to say that tactically. He got a lot wrong in this tournament, and without getting too much in the weeds. But you know, he played a two man midfield against Croatia and Croatia has one of the best three man midfielders on the planet. And right. So you're kind of not- it's not not really setting your team up for success there and they double down and use it to man midfield again against Morocco. And it was only when they switched to a three man midfield that Canada scored. So I guess my point is, is that I think John Herdman, he loves to use the word learnings. I think the biggest learnings for John has to be how to be tactically inventive, how to come up with plan B, C and D so that when they get punched in the mouth, does it work against Croatia? They can adapt because right now they look like a team that has kind of one gear, one gear only, and that's full throttle. That's what we saw against Belgium. But sometimes that doesn't always work. I think John needs to really figure out how to get the best out of this team tactically, and that's going to be the focus for the next three and a half years.

MG: And so the other part of your story was the future appears bright. Canada is co-hosting the next World Cup in 2026. What does this team need to do to be competitive to get. You know, not just a goal or two, but to get a result and to get out of a group and to to to capture and build on that promise.

JOSHUA KLOKE: So Canada is in a really interesting spot right now because, yes, they've qualified automatically for the World Cup, but in that they lose out on the qualification process, they lose out on the 20 games that they played to qualify for this World Cup, and they became a hardened squad through those 20 games. So without that qualification process, it's really on a lot of the players to move to Europe. But I'm talking about this team's core. Right. We can we can talk about 20 year old Ismael Koné, who was tremendous this tournament. He needs to move from MLS. I think we have to get to a point where this Canadian team, where they're all playing in Europe so that their level of personal development is perhaps challenged and Harvard it in a way that maybe it might not be. Playing in my lesson. That's not a slag on adolescents. Just, you know, the pressure and expectations in big leagues in Europe I think is something that can really benefit this team. And I say that, Matt, because when I had a chance to ask John, you know, before the Morocco game, I said if there was something that you saw other teams do that you wish your team could do. He specifically said close out games. Right. If they had closed out that game against Belgium, they would have been in a completely different spot. And I think by going to Europe, getting these players hardened and pressure filled environments, they'll develop that that extra resiliency so that when the games are tight, they kind of they won't falter mentally, if that makes sense.

MG: Just have a minute or so left. You well know that for many World Men's World Cups, the Canadian flag was not on the side of people's cars. It was the Turkish flag, the Argentinean flag, the Portuguese flag, the Senegalese flag. You now see Canadian flags, people out celebrating this team. How much of a difference do you think this has made in terms of the profile of this sport across this country?

JOSHUA KLOKE: Well, I hope, I genuinely hope that it has made a big difference. You know, you look at the the reporters and Canada's media contingent here was undoubtedly the smallest of the 32 teams. But everybody that was here covering this team was here because they love the game and they believe that there is a future for the game in this country. I think there was iconic moments in this World Cup that I think a lot of players, young players can latch on to. And what sticks out to me personally is the makeup of this team. It is, it is diverse. There are players of colour. There are players that are refugees, immigrants. And hopefully if you are a young player in Canada that maybe wasn't born into into privilege in Canada, you can believe that there is a place for you in the national team in the future because that just opens up the doors to more and more players. And that's maybe not the case with other sports.

MG: It's great to talk to you again. Thank you very much, Joshua.

JOSHUA KLOKE: Likewise. Thanks, Matt.

MG: Joshua Kloke, staff writer at The Athletic. His new book is The Voyagers, The Canadian Men's Soccer Teams Quest to Reach the World Cup. That's The Current for this Friday cuz. Up next on CBC Radio One, some sad news at CBC Radio today. Robert 'Rosie' Rowbotham has died. He was a pioneer in fighting for cannabis legalisation in this country in the 1970s, served 20 years in prison, the longest ever sentence in this country for dealing pot even after celebrities like Norman Mailer and Neil Young testified on his behalf after his release, he was hired as a producer on the CBC radio programme this morning, giving listeners an inside look at the correctional system and the world of drug dealing. Rosie Rowbotham died of cancer yesterday, 72 years old. A couple of weeks back, fellow CBC producer Ira Basson paid tribute to Rosie on our programme. And you can find that on our website. We're going to leave you, though, with Rosie Rowbotham. Looking back at his life. This is from an interview from Day6 in 2018. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you on Monday.

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Was I a criminal? Was I a prisoner of the war on drugs? You know what kind? Because I didn't see me as a criminal. I was doing time with all these people for 20 years, not putting them down or anything. But there was this whole 'I came from a different place'. I was a hippie. There's no violence. We're just hippies. You know, Russell College. Uh, when I think of all the good times I have wasted having good times. You know.

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