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The Current Transcript for November 14, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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The most devastating sight is to see a child who is so weak they can't even express emotion there. They're frustrated, yet they don't have the energy to cry.

MATT GALLOWAY: The Pulitzer Prise winning photographer Lynsey Addario has spent much of the past year documenting the war in Ukraine. But this fall she travelled to tell another story the severe drought and famine taking hold in the Horn of Africa as global leaders meet in Egypt at the U.N. climate conference. She'll be here with the stark tale of how the climate crisis is already making life more desperate in Somalia. Also this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

We are investing in deepening our understanding of how China thinks, operates and plans. How an exert its influence in the region and around the world.

MG: Canada's foreign minister, Mélanie Joly, calls China an increasingly disruptive global power. A new Canadian strategy on how to engage with that power is coming. In an hour, what should our relationship with China look like now? And can we afford to distance ourselves from that nation? Plus, your letters on chronic pain and an investment by the federal government in a strategy to help manage it. We begin, though, in crowded children's hospitals and a call from some doctors to bring back mask mandates. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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How public masking could help doctors handle emergency room traffic

Guests: Tammy DeGiovanni, Dr. Thomas Piggott, Dr. Joss Reimer

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Nobody wants these mandates, but they are reasonable to protect society, protect our hospitals and protect each other when you have limited options.

MG: Dr. Fahad Razak is an epidemiologist at Unity Health in Toronto, and he is one in a growing chorus of medical professionals who say we need to mask up once again. Ontario's chief medical officer of health, Dr. Kieran Moore, said today that he recommends people wear masks but did not impose a mask mandate. And this comes as emergency rooms across the country are seeing more patients come through their doors. Many of those patients are children. Tammy DeGiovanni is senior vice president of clinical services and the chief nurse executive at CHEO, the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario. Tammy, good morning.

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What is the situation in your hospital right now?

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: Yes, honestly, there are sick kids everywhere. So we have our our paediatric intensive care unit that is at double the capacity. In fact, we had to open a second unit last week. We have more admitted patients than we have beds for. So we are backed up in our emergency department, which means really long waiting times for families that are waiting for beds. They're stuck in the emergency department for up to two days before we actually have an inpatient beds for them. And our inpatient medical team is almost double their capacity. So it's just really, really sick kids. And these are previously well kids. So typically under the age of five, they're coming in with respiratory symptoms.

MG: You said they're everywhere. That's quite an image to think of it in a hospital.

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: They are. And so, you know, it's interesting because hospitals aren't places that people really see the inside of the walls. So what health professionals see is very different from what the public might imagine. And so people are, you know, becoming accustomed to overcrowding emergency departments. And certainly our emergency department volumes are very high. We have patients spread out, along almost every corridor coming into our emergency department, waiting to see physicians and waiting for a long, long period of time, way too long. And, you know, and then in every nook and cranny of our inpatient areas and our overflow areas, there's patients. And so there's patients that are having difficulty breathing, that are requiring respiratory support and and there's exhausted staff doing their very best from across the organisation to care for them. So it means that we really it's an all hands on deck effort. We've implemented our emergency management system because we do need to be, you know, cancelling things in other areas, the hospital, to free up staff and physicians to work with these critically ill children.

MG: And again, this is a children's hospital. What sort of illnesses are you seeing in particular?

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: So it's typically respiratory illnesses. We certainly have, you know, our regular things that don't go away. Oncology diagnoses, new diabetes, patients, injuries, accidents. But on top of that, what's really driving the surge is respiratory illnesses. So kids coming in with a real difficulty breathing. And for those that haven't seen a child in respiratory distress, it is pretty alarming. And they're needing oxygen. They're needing respiratory support to to help them through this.

MG: Is this a mix of people have been talking about this, you know, tripledemic, that it's COVID, RSV, and then a surge in flu cases? Is that broadly what you're seeing or is there one respiratory illness that would be perhaps more acute in the patients that are everywhere in your hospital, as you say?

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: No, you're right that it is it does seem to be three viruses that are that are hitting young kids at the same time. So Colgate is still in circulation. We have RSV, which, you know, for you and I might present as a common cold, but for really young kids, it really does inflame their airways and makes it that that they really can't breathe when it's most acute. And we also have influenza circulating as well. And so this is the year for all the things that we know help to prevent these viruses and lower the load across the community. So things like flu vaccines, things like washing your hands, you know, staying home when you're sick and of course, masks, we know that they work. And so this is this is the year to be looking at how we can prevent these illnesses that are circulating in the community.

MG: And so do you believe that in the face of that, that we should be not just being strongly recommended to wear masks, but that there should be a mandate that is reintroduced in your jurisdiction to wear masks in public places to help cut down on what you're seeing in your hospital?

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: Yeah. You know, we get we get asked that a lot. And, you know, I'm a nurse. I'm not a public policy maker. That said, we also know that communities rally around their kids. And, you know, this is much like the community rallied around adults in 2020, except were three years in and we're exhausted. And so, you know, what all children's hospitals are calling on is for communities to do the right thing to help out the kids. The kids desperately need our care and we desperately need everyone to do the right thing and do all that. Is required to help prevent viruses in circulation and that people are looking for a silver bullet. And masking is one part of that. But there's also other things that we can do to help, and that's what we're asking the community to do.

MG: But if we go back to the masking, you'll forgive me for asking again. Part of this is asking people to do something. But do you think in the face of the emergency like you're facing right now, that the ask isn't enough, that we need to mandate that in public areas?

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: Well, I think what I think what needs to happen is that people need to understand what's happening within our walls. And it is critical. We have too many sick kids that we have beds for and that we have it's not just beds, it's caregivers. So it's nursing staff and physician staff. So it is really at a critical level. And so that's why we're really calling on communities to, you know, really be doing what's right for kids in their communities. And that is around vaccines and it is around masking.

MG: How difficult it is do you think it will be to convince people to wear masks regularly? Again, Dr. Vera Etches, York City's medical officer of health, said that there needs to be community buy in before people really start wearing masks again at a high level.

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: Yeah, that's what we believe, too. And that's why I said it's hard for people to understand what's happening in our walls. Our health professionals are doing everything they can to care for these sick kids, and it's coming at a personal toll as well. We have, you know, nurses working overtime, you know, physicians working on top of their regular loads and and really all health professionals and non-professionals that are at the bedside supporting the clinical teams. And that isn't something that we can, you know, bring cameras in and make public. But that is what we see that the public doesn't see. And I think that's really the call to action for people to to be thinking about how they can prevent the viral illnesses that are circulating in the community.

MG: So what would you say to somebody who's they're tired because they're a few years through this pandemic right now. But to your point, they don't see what you see in that hospital. What would you say directly to them?

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: AI think, you know, health professionals are tired, too. And, you know, we're wearing masks all day, every day. And it's just part of what we do. And so it sometimes seems foreign when we're not wearing a mask, to be honest with you. And, you know, this is critical. Kids really do need our care and the children's hospital. And they're it's highly specialised services. You know, we're onboarding staff as quickly as we can, but it's a lot of training. It's beyond the basic training. And so we really do need to preserve those beds for the kids that need us. And and so they need to do what's right for the kids and families.

MG: I'm glad to talk to you, Tammy. Good luck. And thank you very much.

TAMMY DEGIOVANNI: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Tammy DeGiovanni is senior vice president of clinical services and the chief nurse executive at CHEO, the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario. She was in Ottawa. That story is packed. Emergency rooms and children's wards is not unique to that city. Recently, the Montreal Children's Hospital Emergency Room was operating at over 200% capacity. In Manitoba, the medical director at the Winnipeg Children's Hospital called the situation a crisis. But bringing back mandatory masking seems unlikely if you ask the premier of Manitoba, Heather Stefanson.

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Respiratory virus season comes every year at this time. And, you know, we're seeing an uptick in that, of course. But for right now, we're not looking at any mask mandates as of right now. But certainly, you know, I know. And encourage people who are maybe feeling a little under the weather, please, you know, protect others, do wear a mask if you're out and about in public and make sure you're protecting others, and particularly our health care workers as well.

MG: Dr. Thomas Piggott is medical officer of Health and CEO of Peterborough Public Health in Ontario. Dr. Joss Reimer is the medical officer of Health for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. Good morning to you both.

Speaker 4: Good morning.

DR. JOSS REIMER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Joss, we heard earlier about the situation in Ontario. How would you describe just briefly what doctors are facing in emergency departments in Manitoba right now?

DR. JOSS REIMER: You know, we're really seeing the same thing that we're seeing across the country. The stresses on the staff are very high right now and the demand on the system is very high. So we're seeing similar things to what we just heard from the children's hospital where there are patients who are waiting for beds, were waiting for rooms, and it's a very stressful situation for everyone involved. And it's so heartbreaking to hear these stories about people who are waiting hours in our emergency rooms to be able to be admitted to the hospital.

MG: And so when you hear the premier say respiratory virus, you know, this is this is something that happens every year that this is this is the season for those sorts of viruses. What goes through your mind?

DR. JOSS REIMER: Well, certainly that's that's true. We do have respiratory viruses every year. We have a flu season every year. And it does stress our system every year. And this year, I think what's different is that we're experiencing a lot of burnout from our staff because they've been working so hard and doing such a great job for years. And so now we're starting to see that, you know, many people are retiring. People are cutting down their hours because they've just done so much. And I'm so proud of the team, but also recognising that, you know, they can't do this forever. And so it's it's a harder time for us right now because we're working with a lot less staff than we had earlier in the pandemic.

MG: Thomas Piggott, from your perspective, how concerned are you with what we're seeing right now and what it's doing to the health care system in your part of the country?

DR. THOMAS PIGGOTT: Well, Matt, I feel their concern. I hear their cry from hell for help. I you know, I used to work as an emergency room physician. I'm a father of two little kids. What we're experiencing now is scary. I've also worked in countries where, you know, we've had to triage because of inadequate health care. I've had kids die on me because the health care system failed them and we can't go there. So we need to come together and we need to do everything that we can to prevent that from happening.

MG: And so these I mean, I think anybody would be moved by the scenes that we're hearing, the scenes that you've described that Tammy Giovanni was describing in Ottawa. Do we know whether wearing a mask on a bus or in a store would actually ease the conditions in those paediatric hospitals in particular, Dr. Piggott?

DR. THOMAS PIGGOTT: Well, Matt, it would play a role. How big of a role, you know, would it reduce that 1% or 99%? I can't tell you the exact amount, but clearly it would play a role. And I think why advocates are suggesting masking needs to come back now is because unlike some of the other measures, you know, closure businesses, closure of schools that had a real significant impact over the last three years. Masking is an intervention that comes with absolutely no known evidence of harms. And and that's the reality. I mean, unfortunately, through the past couple of years, there's been politicisation of masking. So instead of a health prevention, it's seen as a symbol. And and that's really unfortunate because I think, you know, we're not at the place. We don't have a resilient enough health care system. We haven't done enough other things like improve ventilation and, you know, ensure paid sick leave to not be relying on masking now at this point, where we are this fall.

MG: Would you want to see this mandated?

DR. THOMAS PIGGOTT: Well, Matt, in my community, I think about 10% of people are probably wearing a mask regularly. Now, we know that that number would go up to over 70%. A recent Abacus poll said 72% of people would be favourable of required masking if it was necessary. I think at the very least we need to desperately escalate communications around this. We need to be hearing coordinated messages from every level that this is not acceptable and that we all need to come together for prevention. On a personal level, I think yes, it does need to come back, but ultimately I think that's a political decision at this point.

MG: Dr. Reimer, what about from your perspective? Last week the Premier announced that she would not, as we heard, introduce a formal mask mandate, but is encouraging people to wear a mask, especially if if they're sick. Is that enough from your perspective?

DR. JOSS REIMER: Well, I would agree that we need to be communicating urgently with everybody right now. People can feel really helpless when they hear these stories in the news and they don't know how they can make a difference. And wearing a mask is one way that you can make a difference. You can also make a difference by getting your flu vaccine, your COVID booster, getting up to hearing whooping cough vaccine and making sure your kids are up to date on all of those. So there's still a lot people can do to help up the situation. Whether or not the government decides to bring back a mandate for masks.

MG: Is your sense, though, that people are doing that? I mean, to Thomas's point, and I think I think anybody who's been out, you know, in public recently would see that there aren't overwhelming numbers of people in most spaces, aside from perhaps hospitals and doctors offices that are wearing masks. So is asking people or strongly recommending people, is that going to be enough in in the situation that you've been describing and what you're facing?

DR. JOSS REIMER: Well, I think we need to communicate even more than what we've been doing so far. I mean, there's no question that when you go to enforcement, you're going to get more behaviour change than if you didn't. But we also don't like to force people to do things when we have options. So it's a difficult decision that public health has to make anytime they're thinking about these types of interventions. But there's no question that that's what we're asking people. We want them to see what's going on in the hospitals, and hopefully they can do this one more time so that we can all avoid all of the harder things that we had to go through during the pandemic. You know, I know people are tired. Everyone's tired of wearing masks. But this isn't something we want people to do forever every day. We're really talking about, you know, when things are looking worse, when the hospitals are full, when flu is circulating, that those are times that we want to really encourage the community to wear their masks.

MG: Dr. Pigoott, you are in public health. What about that idea of of meeting people where they are? And again, going back to that quotation fro, Dr. Etches, in Ottawa, saying that in some ways you have to have public buy in before people will do this.

DR. THOMAS PIGGOTT: Well, not I mean, I think the challenge here is our enemy, the virus and viruses is invisible. Can you imagine? We had given up on collective action in 1943 in the middle of World War Two. I mean, I think that we need to come back together. But unfortunately the reality around behavioural change is we're not going to get that without requiring this at this stage. You know, if you look at the story of seatbelt, seatbelts, first an option in cars in the late 1950s, ultimately we didn't get behaviour change on that until you know, all the provinces had required seatbelts and I think in some ways masks are similar to seatbelts because they're a precautionary measure of prevention without any harms other than the political considerations obviously at present. I don't think we're always going to need masks. I think the more be like snow tires that you throw on in the winter. And I think as we make the road safer, as we improve ventilation, we get paid sick leave. We have a completely redesigned society, post-pandemic. I think that we'll be able to not require them as much. But at this stage, we need to answer this cry to help. We're hearing from the children's hospitals.

MG: Is that more difficult to talk about when this isn't just about COVID? Something that people are unfamiliar with, but also is all about the more familiar viruses like the flu that have circulated in past?

DR. THOMAS PIGGOTT: Well, I think yes. I mean, I think that COVID may have impacted you know, we've seen so much infection. Now we know in adults that it impacts the immune system and it may be doing that in children. That may be a component of why we're seeing more severe disease now than we have previously. But the other thing is we can't just put all the knowledge and information we've learnt back into a box and forget about it. I mean, respiratory season nearly crippled the health care system every year. It's just that Canadians didn't know about it. Now we have a less resilient health care system, so we need to be more careful, more cautious. And we've learnt these tools. We have more tools in the toolbox to respond to a variety of viruses, not just COVID 19.

MG: Dr. Reimer would emphasising, and you've hinted at this, that this could be a temporary thing, that it doesn't mean that you're wearing masks forever. Is that something that could be part of reassuring people and getting them onside?

DR. JOSS REIMER: Yeah, I think absolutely. People really are tired and that makes sense. We're all feeling tired. I'm feeling it as well. And so asking them to do something with no end in sight is going to be challenging for people. But we really do want to think I like the analogy about thinking about it like snow tires where you know, when the road isn't safe, then we have tools to help us out. And that's what we're saying right now. Like things are very challenging, especially in our children's hospitals, and we have a tool that we're asking people at least to use for right now until things calm down.

MG: Dr. Piggott, you raised the issue of politicisation just briefly. I mean, how did we get to a point where we're even talking about something? That's all you tweeted last night saying you're going to be on the programme and there's an avalanche of people criticising you even for coming on to talk about masking. How did we get to that point?

DR. THOMAS PIGGOTT: Society obviously is more polarised. You know, social media is making spread of misinformation easier. But I think ultimately, sadly not political actors are realising that this is a way that they can make inroads, they can make gains. And I think that is a tragic reflection of where we're at in this pandemic.

MG: And so, Dr. Reimer, what are you most concerned about? I mean, this is it's we're only at the, you know, the beginning of November.

DR. JOSS REIMER: Well, I'm concerned about a lot of things, and I'm concerned that right now influenza is not circulating very much. And so what are we going to see when it does start to circulate? What are we going to see in the adult population? Maybe something that reflects what we're seeing with children. And I'm concerned about what we're seeing in the south of us, in the States as well, with where it's been even more politicised and even more animosity between different groups than we're seeing in Canada. And that's something that's deeply concerning, because we want to work together as a community. We want to bring people along so that we can all do this, trying to take care of each other. And so we're we're waiting to see what's going to happen with some of the other respiratory viruses. But what we're seeing in the children's hospitals right now is heartbreaking.

MG: I'm glad to speak with you both about this. Thank you very much.

DR. THOMAS PIGGOTT: Thanks, Matt.

DR. JOSS REIMER: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Thomas Piggott is medical officer of Health and CEO of Peterborough Public Health in Ontario. Dr. Joss Reimer is chief medical officer for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. We did request an interview with the Ontario Health Minister, Sylvia Jones. She was not available. Your CBC News is next.

SOUNDCLIP

And then it's so unfair. I mean, these children do not have the energy to just play, to cry, to do basic function.

DR. JOSS REIMER: Children are unable to pick up their toys or stomach with a little food or water that they have in the midst of a U.N. climate conference in Egypt. We look at the severe drought in East Africa and what those leaders in Egypt should be thinking about in the decisions that they make and the promises that they make. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Documenting food insecurity in East Africa, one photo at a time

Guest: Lynsey Addario

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, how Canada's hitting the reset button on its relationship with China. But first, little rain and fewer crops. Desperation in East Africa.

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Drought related hazards have claimed the lives of over half a million people and led to economic losses of over 70 billion USD. The Horn of Africa region is experiencing the worst drought in 40 years. Two consecutive years without rain have visited misery on millions of people.

MG: Misery on millions of people. That is how Kenya's president, William Ruto, speaking at the U.N. climate conference, describes the devastating drought across East Africa. Rain is becoming a distant memory for people in the region, and more than 20 million people are facing food insecurity across Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya. Almost half of them are children. Lynsey Addario is a Pulitzer Prise winning photojournalist. She recently visited the region on assignment for National Geographic. Lynsey. Hello.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Hi. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thank you for being here. Why did you you went, as I mentioned, on assignment for National Geographic. Why did you want to tell this story now?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: So I've been working on climate related issues and primarily how climate change is affecting women and women and children over the past few years. And I started working on the Horn of Africa drought in Ethiopia last year in about May of 2021. And I've been covering Ukraine all year, and I had a break and I really saw that the situation in Somalia is dire. And as you mentioned, it's been two years of no rain. And right now they're in their fifth consecutive failed rainy season. And it just felt like a really important time to go and try to bring attention to this story.

MG: Give us a sense as to the big picture. We'll talk about some specifics, but how bad the drought is. You said it's a dire situation.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: It's dire. I mean, right now, over two million people in Somalia or are in emergency food conditions, meaning they're not yet in a famine state, but they're in a crisis. It's an emergency situation and that's considered IPC four in sort of the UN speak. And then about 300,000 are facing famine like conditions in the Bay Region, which is Baidoa, which is where I went for National Geographic. I went to two different places, but one of the places was the Bay Region.

MG: And when you say that there has been essentially no rain in two years, what does that look like on the ground?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: I mean, it's pretty shocking. You see sort of piles of dead carcases of animals that just cannot survive because there is no water. That means no there's no food for the animals. It also means that when people's animals die, people in Somalia and across the Horn of Africa really rely on their animals for food, for milk, to feed their children and to feed themselves. So when you see carcases across the desert and across the Horn of Africa and in Somalia, then you can assume that that is directly impacting the people and that that creates malnutrition within a family.

MG: You have a photo of that. Can you describe this image that I'm looking at of of these bones on an incredibly dry patch of ground?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Yeah. I mean, it literally is a pile of goats and sheep. And and this was a woman, ironically, whose husband wa,s he was a pastoralist. He was hurting his his animals. And he they had a few hundred animals. And then that number went down to 30. They decided to move closer to one of the camps where they heard Save the Children and other organisations were giving food. And so they moved to this area with their last 30 animals, hoping to keep them alive. It was also close to a bore well, and that's what you're looking at in that photograph is literally their last 30 animals. And at that point, I said, where's the husband? And it turned out the husband had literally just given up grazing his animals and turned to fishing. And so he had gone to the coast to learn how to become a fisherman. And so that's pretty astonishing. I mean, that is a direct consequence of the drought. People are just giving up what they've known their entire life.

MG: You spoke with a number of these people. And, I mean,they would tell you the stories of what their lives had become. But what was for those, you know, that family, the mother of five. What was her life like before this drought arrived?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: I mean, their lives, you know, a lot of them describe this nostalgic period where they had rain. They had, you know, they had places to graze. They could live off the land. They could live with their animals. And, you know, it's very peaceful, very idealistic. It's not an easy life, by all means. But they are you know, it is the life that they've lived for many, many years in what they know. But the minute you take away water, which is their main resource, those people, many family members, relatives, have to go in search of water. So that means travelling for weeks, if not months, in search of a water source with the animals, sometimes leaving the women and children behind, sometimes not. And so it really uproots everything.

MG: You mentioned that you went to two areas in particular. Tell us about those two areas.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: So I started in Puntland, which is what I described. A lot of there are camps for displaced. There are over a million displaced right now in Somalia, internally displaced because they go in search of food and water and and help from organisations. And so in those camps are many, there are these huge water bladders. People are living in very makeshift tents, rudimentary conditions. They basically wait for the water truck to come. They have some porridge, they have some food, whatever they, you know, whatever they get. Many aid organisations right now are giving cash handouts rather than actually food because they realise people prefer to decide what they want to eat and how they want to spend their money. So you don't see a lot of food around. You see generally people making porridge and so that's Puntland. So you have, you know, there it is, emergency conditions. And then I went to Baidoa, which is a town that is surrounded by Al Shabab, the militant group, the terrorist group. People come there when they are in sheer desperation because, of course, they have to leave al-Shabab territory. And if they're not living in it, they have to trespass through it. At that point, many of them have already lost all their animals. So you don't really see those piles of carcases because their animals are dead. I talked to many mothers who have lost not only one, but two of their children. I interviewed one mother, a [unintelliglbe] Yusuf, who had literally lost her third child in about a month, the morning that I met her. And that is to malnutrition, malnutrition and measles. And that is just devastating. I cannot fathom as a mother sitting over the body of the third child that I've lost in a month. And that is because of malnutrition.

MG: Is it? I mean, the word famine has a specific definition that is attached to it. Are there parts of the country that are already meeting that definition, meeting that mark?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Well, it's Baidoa. It is the Bay Region. That is, if the government decides to determine or to declare it a famine. As you said, there are many factors that go into it. It's also political. If it is declared a famine, that is the place. It would be the Bay Region.

MG: As you mentioned, much of your focus and the work that you do is on women and children. Take a listen to this doctor in that region of Puntland that you visited. He was featured in a piece for France24, and he is treating a severely malnourished nine month old child named Abdi.

SOUNDCLIP

Speaker 2: These kind of dehydration. And as you can see, skin goes back very slowly, which is kind of severe dehydration with severe malnutrition. He is also having [unintelligible] which indicated for severe dehydration, also have a sunken eye, as you can see. Even he's also weak and he can't even cry normally.

MG: He can't even cry. Normally. Tell us more about- I mean, you've hinted at this. But how malnutrition particularly is hitting children in this region.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Yeah. I think the the most devastating sight is to see a child who is so weak they can't even express emotion. They're frustrated, yet they they don't have the energy to cry. I mean, I watched the scene, which was which was so difficult to photograph and to really try and capture the essence of. But it was a boy who was malnourished. One of his siblings was also malnourished. The mother also had one child who was handicapped. And they were sitting in this stabilisation unit run by Save the Children. And the boy had this little bag of Legos that was given to him and he was trying to unzip the zipper. And he was about five years old and he just didn't have the energy to basically take the Legos out of the bag. And I watched him for like four I don't know, I watched him for about three minutes and it just broke my heart. I mean, I have two sons. You know, my three year old probably weighs as much as him and I and I just thought it's so unfair. I mean, these children do not have the energy to just play, to cry, to do basic functions.

MG: There's a photo that you took, it's remarkable of a mother and her child. It appears to be in a hospital. I think her name is Fatuma.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Hmm.

MG: Tell me about this photo to describe the scene that's captured in this image.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Well, I was such a difficult scene of Fatuma. She was standing or sitting over her three month old son, Khalid. He had pneumonia. Initially, he was severely malnourished and then got pneumonia. And what happens, obviously, in many situations is a child who is severely malnourished, their immune system is so weakened that that anything coupled with the malnutrition can often kill them. And so he had pneumonia. And then they said that morning they thought he might also have TBm coupled with the malnutrition. And so she was just sort of caressing his face and talking to him and sitting over him. He was on oxygen and, you know, very listless, as we discussed, really struggling. They were taking his oxygen levels. And we you know, I spent most of the day with her and her son, Khalid and Fatuma, and then learnt two days later that they had been transferred to another hospital in Garroway the day before, and he passed away either on or shortly after getting there.

MG: For those who are able to get food, what are they eating?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: I mean, I honestly did not see anyone eating anything but porridge. I you know, they basically wait for handouts from neighbours or more prosperous neighbours who have rice. The idea of meat is just so far off. I mean, I very few people are getting animal meat, which is a common staple if you have money in that part of the world. So I really I didn't see anyone eating anything but porridge.

MG: And is there aid that is arriving to these areas where people are in such desperate circumstances?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: I mean, there is not enough aid. I think one of the main issues is the Ukraine Russia war. We've seen that the the ships carrying aid and other food from Ukraine have been unable to leave the ports because of the Russians blocking the access. Now that there's an agreement in place, you know, there's such a backlog of of wheat and I mean, of grain that hasn't been able to go out. There's also rising inflation. The prices of things are three times the price. So people can't really afford to eat. There are aid agencies, but so much of their budget has been has gone to the Ukraine war. And so, you know, many of the organisations like the ones that I worked with, Save the Children, Mercy Corps, you know, they don't have the budgets that they had. And so they they are they're on the ground. They're trying to help people. But of course, they have limited resources themselves. And so really, there needs to be more aid going into places like Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya.

MG: And so just to be clear, some of the aid, some of the funds that those organisations would have have been diverted because of the scale of the war in Ukraine and the scale of that that that refugee exodus there.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Well, I mean, I think everyone's budget and everyone's attention has gone to the Ukraine Russia war. You would have to talk to obviously people in those organisations to find out what percent. But certainly budgets have been cut because all much of the resources are going to the Ukraine war.

MG: What has this drought done to families? Because it's interesting, if you look at some of these photos, many of them, the ones that are in National Geographic, the ones that you have posted on Instagram, social media are of women and children. Are the families being broken up by the situation and split up by the situation that they're they're facing right now?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: So many of the men go off in search of that, you know, to find pasture, to graze the animals that remain. If they don't have animals, then if all of their animals have already died, then they go to a city to try to find day labour to work as a day labourer. So many of the men are out trying to find work and money and so the women are taking care of the children. And so the natural focus for me in many of these camps is women and children, because those are really I mean, there are men around, but but for me personally, I connect. You know, I find I don't know, I just it's what I'm drawn to in terms of telling the story. I think that, you know, I do believe that it is a human right for four children to be raised with enough food and water and shelter and that there's such an unequal distribution of wealth. And I and I really believe that if people see these photographs and they care enough, then maybe it'll inspire people who do have the means to help.

MG: Could you tell me a bit more about that and what you see? I mean, this is the work that you do, whether it's here, whether it's in Ukraine, whether it's in the wars, the many of them that you have documented what you see as your role in in distributing these images as a photojournalist.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: No. I mean, look, my role I'm a journalist. My role is to document a story, get the facts and put it out there. But I think I've been doing this for 25 years and I've seen I don't know how many people die from malnutrition, from war, from civilian casualties, from, you know, the things that, you know, all of the sort of circumstances surrounding war and broken infrastructure of poverty. And so I think, you know, my role as a journalist is very clear. You know, I go in, I report the stories. I'm on the ground. I take a fair amount of risk to do that, to go to places where people who perhaps are in positions of power are unable to go to provide them with the voices and the stories. But I think ultimately, you know, I can only hope that people see the work that I do and they make change or they're able to do something with those facts. That's not my job. Obviously, I'm not an activist, but I do think that people do respond viscerally sometimes to photographs if they're good enough.

MG: There's also an emotional toll to this. I mean, as you said, you're mother with two kids. And when you see this, I just wonder how you carry that.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: I mean, I carry it. I carry- I'm a very emotional person. I'm a very passionate person. I feel very strongly about the things I see and documents. So, you know, I, I, I cry, I break down. I feel very strongly when I see something, and I think that's natural.

MG: These images appear at a time when the leaders of the world are in Egypt right now at COP 27, the U.N. climate conference. And we heard the president of Kenya earlier talking about this is a, you know, a famine that is related to drought. It's related to a climate emergency that ostensibly those leaders are there to address in a meaningful way. How hopeful are people in the region where this crisis is unfolding, how hopefully they that this crisis is going to be addressed?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Well, I think the only thing that they have left is hope. You know, I think they clearly don't have much else. And I think when they see aid organisations, they're very reliant on them. You know, they, they're so grateful for them. And I think that they hope that they're, you know, that they continue to help them. But yeah, I think really the only thing left is hope, because right now it's such a desperate situation, at least in Somalia, that it's very hard to even look at solutions because they're just trying to survive.

MG: And is your sense again, you're a journalist, you're putting those images, images out there, but is your sense in the midst of everything that the world is facing right now, that people are paying attention to this crisis? There are other crises that are unfolding near and far away.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Yeah. I mean, I'm sitting in southern Ukraine. I mean, I know the I mean, I'm you know, right now I'm in Ukraine and I and I where I've put most of my attention this year. But I feel like, you know, there are so many things that the world needs to pay attention to. And and and I think that we we we need to sort of be aware of what's happening. And and, you know, there should not be a famine or country or countries on the verge of famine in 2022, when we have such extraordinary wealth in the world and people who can help.

MG: We've spoken about a number of the images. Is there one scene that has stayed with you?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: I think the scenes that we've described, you know, I think there's there's one other additional scene. One mother who came she she arrived in this camp and I saw her in the afternoon. It was about 330 in the afternoon, some sort of late afternoon there. And she was just sort of sitting in the shade of of a structure and and amongst many other women and children. And I we started interviewing her and I said, What's your situation? And she said, Well, I'm a divorcee. I was trying to feed my children. I have four children and and I had no more food or water. And and, you know, I was just watching my children basically wither away. And she said, I finally made the decision to come to Baidoa to find the aid agencies, because I know that they're giving out food and water. I only hope they would be. And so she made the journey. It was a week long walk with her four children. And by the time she got to the camp, she only had two children left and she had to bury two of her children on the way.

MG: Oh my goodness. It's unimaginable.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Unmatchable.

MG: Just finally, you are in Ukraine now and you're back there covering this other conflict, a conflict that has a connexion, as you said, in terms of the aid that is not getting to the Horn of Africa. Many, many months into this war. What surprises you about what you're seeing now in Ukraine?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: I think what continues to surprise me is the resilience of the Ukrainians, sort of the resolve to keep fighting the Russians to make sure that they, you know, that they don't take more ground, that they leave the ground that they're on. You see regular Ukrainians who have volunteered to fight and they you know, and even the residents who have stayed behind in these these villages, I mean, the scenes are extraordinary. Today I was in a village that was liberated yesterday. And it you know, civilians were coming out just weeping. I mean, just just emotional and crying and, you know, reaching into our vehicle just because we were people from outside and just weeping and grabbing the soldiers, the Ukrainian soldiers, and hugging them and like inconsolably crying because they were so grateful that the Russians were gone. And, you know, I think it's important for people to know that and to understand that, you know, yes, we're the war has gone on a long time, but the emotions are just as strong.

MG: It's a great pleasure, as always, to talk about your extraordinary work. Stay safe. And Lindsay, thank you very much.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Thank you so much. Take care.

MG: Lynsey Addario is a photojournalist who is on assignment for National Geographic. She was in Somalia last month. We reached her in [unintelligible], Ukraine. The drought conditions in East Africa have been, as you heard, a big part of the conversation at COP 27. The U.N. climate conference in Egypt runs until Friday. And we will bring you more stories from that conference in the coming days. Well, coming up, after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

Speaker 4: As the leaders of our two nations, we share responsibility, in my view, to show that China and the United States can manage our differences, prevent competition from becoming anything near conflict, and to find ways to work together on urgent global issues that require our mutual cooperation. The world expects, I believe, China and the United States to play key roles in addressing global challenges from climate changes to food insecurity, and for us to be able to work together. The United States stands ready to do just that, work with you, if that's what you desire.

MG: That's U.S. President Joe Biden speaking ahead of his meeting with China's President Xi Jinping at the G-20 summit in Indonesia. Coming up, how Canada is rethinking its approach to dealing with China. A harder line on human rights. And a warning to businesses. What should our relationship be with China in the years ahead? That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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Examining Canada’s relationship with China

Guests: Joanna Chiu, David Fung, Karin Marley

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

China is an increasingly disruptive global power. It seeks to shape the global environment into one that is more permissive for interests and values that increasingly depart from ours. We'll continue to engage at the highest levels regarding the human rights situation in this region. We will continue to oppose, you know, unilateral actions that threaten the status quo in the Taiwan Strait. We will deepen our economic ties with Taiwan. We'll continue to stand up for freedom of speech and freedom of the press in Hong Kong and in multilateral forums. We will act in concert with partners to face the complex realities of China's impact on the world stage, while pushing back against behaviours that undermine international norms.

MG: As Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Joly speaking last week as she revealed that Canada will have a new approach to China as part of an Indo-Pacific strategy. Full details will be revealed within the month, but thus far we know that the government will try to balance economic partnerships and trade with a stronger stance on human rights abuses and Beijing's foreign interference. What exactly does that mean? Well, for some answers and joined by Joanna Chiu, a reporter with The Toronto Star and the author of China Unbound A New World Disorder. And David Fung, he sits on several boards, including the Canada China Business Council and the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters. Good morning to you both.

JOANNA CHIU: Good morning.

MG: Let's start just briefly by asking you how and we'll start with you, Joanna. How would you characterise the relationship between Canada and China right now?

JOANNA CHIU: Hmm. So I think the relations after it reached pretty much an all time high of tensions with my one joke arrest in Canada and the hostage taking of the two Michaels in China. Polling of Canadian attitudes toward China shows that it's clear that Canadians are not going to forget about what happened, that I think Canadians and government have been this increasingly aggressive side of Beijing, that Beijing has also showed other countries, including Australia, including countries in Europe, that have also faced issues including economic coercion and hostage taking. So I think this Indo-Pacific strategy, which has been in the works for several years, is kind of just looking at the reality. And it's a long delayed providing of clarity of what Ottawa's strategy to mitigate some of these kind of negative aspects and risks of the relationship in a more kind of laid out way. Of course, the entire policy is yet to be released, but Minister Julie gave a pretty comprehensive overview this past week.

MG: Okay, we'll talk about the strategy, David, from your perspective. What is the relationship like, such as it is from your perspective between Canada and China right now?

DAVID FUNG: I think the relationship has deteriorated significantly. As Joanna has mentioned, the issue to some degree is that Canada has taken on a morality squad position with respect to China and the Chinese are not looking upon it lightly, kindly. And so basically our relationship is frozen.

MG: What does that mean? A morality squad approach?

DAVID FUNG: Canada. I've been in Canada for 56 years and if we look at what we have in this is a wonderful country. We have been very successfully integrating multi cultural, diversified sources of immigrants, but we have had a long history of discrimination against minorities. The Chinese Exclusion Act from 1923 and 1947, the indigenous residential school issues. We could not even get all the drinking water to all the indigenous communities. And yet we would like to preach against the United States on the gun culture, on the incarceration rate when they are only three to second to the United States. So, so and then, of course, we would like to see the rest of the world do not understand democracy, do not understand human rights, when we have a lot of our own issues that we need to address. And that's been very unproductive for Canada's image and relationship around the world.

MG: Want to talk more about that. But that's interesting. That's often the line that you'll hear from Chinese officials. I mean, I've spoken with the Chinese ambassador to Canada who almost said that word for word. How dare you in some ways criticise us, given your own history here.

DAVID FUNG: Well, I did not hear from the Chinese.

MG: I'm not suggesting that you're repeating what they're saying. I'm just saying that that's an interesting, it's interesting that that is often something that the Chinese government itself will say.

DAVID FUNG: I don't think the Chinese government along I think I still have a chat with my high school classmate in Hong Kong, and that is and many of them reside in different parts of the world now Singapore, Thailand, UK and so forth. But that is increasingly becoming the consensus that Canada like to preach to the world on human rights and and they're not being received well.

MG: You see that language in in Melanie Joly's comments, the minister called China an increasingly disruptive global power. There was a report from Global News that suggested that China had covertly funded something like 11 different candidates in the 2019 election. The prime minister has said that China is playing aggressive games with Canada's democracy. Joanna, are you surprised by the the language that we have heard so far from the minister, but also how that might shape the Indo-Pacific strategy?

JOANNA CHIU: It's not surprising and a lot of experts looked at her speech and the fact that it was very relatively mild compared to what she could say. She didn't say that she was going to Canada, was going to cut ties with China. She emphasised the importance of treating the Chinese people and a Chinese state differently. She talked about how it is realistic that with one fifth of the world's population, Canada and China, you know, the ties would have to continue. And with major issues like climate change, cooperation is actually needed, should be prioritised. But it is kind of like a long overdue addressing of some of the kind of elephant in the room, like hostage taking, like how Beijing, when it is unhappy with what it sees, that it will not only use that kind of what about them like, oh, you have human rights issues too. You're not, but you're not justified to talk about anything China does. But also, you know, banning certain goods from Canada, banning certain goods from Australia, threatening to not send international students bribe Chinese. These are major logistical issues that having relationships with Beijing involves nowadays. And I think they've it is right that we have to look at our own actions. I think while Jolie's comments are far from hawkish, far from warmongering, we see, you know, south of the border in the US there moves to what China are relatively more aggressive, more kind of kind of targeting also certain Chinese industries. We can talk about that later. But what Canada's doing, I think, is not actually imposed with which did not focus on human rights, not focussing on what China might be doing, like the internment of leaders in China. She's talking about advising Canadian businesses to think about the geopolitical risk of doing business with China. She's saying pledging that Canada will install more experts on China across Asia in Canadian embassy. And she's saying that Canada trade ministers will have funding to help Canadian businesses and industries to explore different business markets in Asia, in the Indo-Pacific. So she talked about India, Southeast Asia and South Korea, Japan. So I think actually the Business Council of Canada for overall business is not just ones that do business with China actually welcomes her statements because I think talking to people in the business community, Canada's dragging their feet and lack of clarity on any of these big issues is actually worse for their businesses because they can't plan according to what they know government policy is. For example, after major Western countries, all the Five Eyes decided made a decision on whether to allow Huawei into our 5G network. And Canada only did so recently. And by this point it was so long that our companies, tech companies had to kind of make adjustments, the decision on their own. So the Business Council said Canada needed a candid and realistic policy on these issues that will help guide business decisions going forward. So I would disagree with Amy. It is not primarily like a human rights stance, I think. It's laying out an outline really for how they think they can navigate trade and the economy and also diplomatic relations with China, emphasising how they have to rather and really focus on trying to save this relationship that might be beyond repair in some respects, to put more effort into improving relations with other countries and allies in Asia.

MG: Part of this is about and we saw this with the prime minister over the weekend, David, he was in Cambodia, part of the summit of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. Ten countries negotiating a trade agreement with Canada. Is it realistic, do you think for businesses in this country to shift away from China?

DAVID FUNG: Well, first of all, let me say that Minister Joly's address amongst school is a very positive one, I think, and is welcomed by the business community. I think that having a consistent policy approach to Asia is very positive. Having the Prime Minister and the minister attending the APEC conferences in Asia, they are all very positive events. The problem is that it's not consistent. It's a flash in the pan. And so so first of all, Minister Joly did not take on human rights issue in her address. I'm really commenting on Canada's overall approach to the world has been to a more realistic basis when in fact, we should always look at Canada's interests first. And so Minister Charlie's address is a positive one. And gauging more Canadians who are saying about Asia is a positive one. We still have 30% of Canadians don't even think that Canada has anything to do with Asia Pacific. So Asia Pacific Foundation spend years trying to get Canadians to think about Asia with limited success. But at the same time, I do think that we could shift our trade relationship from China to other areas. It's the wrong idea. We should not be think about shifting. We should thinking about diversification. We should think about expanding. China, Canada-China's trade relations $100 million. Canada-India in relationships $7 million. Canada-Japan's trade relationships $30 million. Canada- South Korea Trade is $16 billion. Canada- [unintelliglbe] trade is $31,000,000,000.40 $8 billion. So so I think to think about shifting out of China to other areas is, is unrealistic because when you do business, it's you're not talking a single business. When China becomes the world's factory, the infrastructure build up is enormous over a period of 30 years. You know, we want to shift some of our production from China to India. And very quickly, we found that there's no infrastructure in India to to take those production. India's infrastructure right now is about China 30 years ago. So that is unrealistic. You know, we shipped some production to Vietnam, but Vietnam is a tiny China. And so so the world has benefited from China's manufacturing capabilities and control our inflation. At the moment, the supply chains interrupted, refining inflation has taken off. So I'm just saying that the shifting is the wrong one. The world expanding more into Southeast Asia is the right approach.

MG: What happens if you expand into Taiwan?

DAVID FUNG: We do business with Taiwan. Taiwan is a good place to do business. So so again, the only that- I'm saying that having a definitive policy approach is a good one because it gives us guidance, but it also signals a failure of Canada in maintaining a relationship with China to protect Canada's interests in that market. That market is huge, too. I think that we have problems with the United States, but we would never talk about shifting everything out of the United States. So because they are our basic trading partners and basic economic partners in this world, whether we like it or not. So I think it's a positive policy approach, and most positively is for the funding of helping Canadians to learn more about China and the culture of China and how the Chinese think.

MG: Joanna, how do you think China could retaliate? Again, we don't know the full details of what the strategy is going to be, but based on the language that you're already seeing now and and some of the signals that are being presented, how could China retaliate against China because of its strategy and a more aggressive tone?

DAVID FUNG: Yeah. So first of all, you know, with David saying that Canada has had a kind of human rights focussed foreign policy, that it's not in its interests. I think actually he's right in that in their foreign policy thinking in the past, before Michael Angela, before the two Michaels, there was an idea that there could be dual tracks. On one side, you could raise human rights concerns. Actually, Canada not only raise human rights concerns, they actually found ways to donate money to try to support China's development in different areas, just bolstering civil society in different ways of putting money behind those statements. But on the other track, I think Ottawa felt and sources in Ottawa told me that they felt they could pursue as many economic and trade benefits as possible. But I think what has happened is that there was a realisation that there are real consequences for, you know, trying to have democratic values and to have abide by rule of law with hostage taking. And it's not only the two Michaels. We still have Canadians, mostly of Asian or Chinese ethnic, who say.

MG: Huseyincan Celil and others, yeah.

DAVID FUNG: Yeah, who are in Chinese prison and have been for over a decade. We don't hear much about their cases and they're not as high profile. So I would say that human rights issues are central issues to Canadian interests in a very existential way. We have many Canadians working in China throughout the last few years. They have felt vulnerable because they felt that this hostage taking was random or retaliation to companies and industries was also quite arbitrary. And we have 300,000 Canadian citizens who are also residents of Hong Kong. And with the crackdown in Hong Kong, definitely that's a major issue for Canadians. So definitely it's all related. It's hard to say that if business falls, trade falls, that's bad for Canada. So we should, you know, stop raising any of these issues because they're all very interrelated. And in my work covering politics in China and based out of Beijing and Hong Kong and then back in Canada, meeting people who have been harassed by Chinese authorities even though they are Canadian living in Canadian soil. These issues are so just visceral and immediate. So Joly is kind of touching on issues that I think a lot of Canadian pattern pushing the government to address for a long time.

MG: Well, yeah, that's the thing. I was just we just have a few minutes left. So what do we expect to hear from China on this?

DAVID FUNG: Yeah, so I think China might be waiting for the official policy to come out. Likely they would be very angry about this. They tend to treat smaller middle power countries like Canada with less respect. And they would even to, like I said, the much more aggressive U.S. whose statements have been way more hawkish than anything that has ever come out of Ottawa. So companies, I think, David, you know, is justified in worrying about the impact. It could be more subtle in that Canadian companies might suddenly see it as even more difficult to do business in China. They might get their licences revoked or not approved. But I would say that Canada wouldn't be seeing this if they didn't feel that there was some kind of realistic hope. Diversifying and helping companies, at least much of them, help move some of its assets to other places. Actually in the last year trade has with China has fallen 14 per. But overall trade with other countries has risen by almost 30%. So I think they're looking at these figures and making the statement right now isn't actually really farfetched to to think that most businesses will be able to kind of protect themselves by moving at least some of their manufacturing to different places.

MG: David, we're just about out of time. We saw U.S. President Joe Biden met with President Xi today. The U.S. has talked about wanting a competitive relationship with China over one of conflict there. At this point, doesn't seem to be any indication that our prime minister will be meeting with Xi officially. But do you think and again, just very briefly, do you think the relationship between Canada and China can be can be saved?

DAVID FUNG: Well, I think China always played the long game. China understands that regimes will change. And Canada needs to think about the same thing, too, because I think when we talk about China, we have to distinguish between the Chinese people from a regime of government and a set of leaders. So I think, again, for Canada to think the long term, we need to hold what we have, expand what we could and not take that current particular situation and project it into the future. So having Canadians learn more about China is critically important because if we react to short term issues, we will always end up paying the price without achieving any long term success.

MG: We'll be watching to see what that policy looks like, and I hope we have the chance to talk again in the meantime. Thank you both.

DAVID FUNG: Thank you.

JOANNA CHIU: Thank you. I would just also add that Xi Jinping is has confirmed his basically presidency for life. So some of these trends politically in China, we are likely to project into the future. China is not likely to have a new leader anytime soon.

MG: Means that we certainly will have lots to talk about in days and weeks to come. Thank you again.

DAVID FUNG: Okay. Thank you.

MG: Joanna Chiu is a reporter with the Toronto Star and author of China Unbound: A New World Disorder. David Fung is an entrepreneur and international business leader. He serves on several boards, including the Canada China Business Council and the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Before we go, we spoke last week on the programme about the eight million people in Canada who live with chronic pain. The Federal Government has pledged some $5 million to help but advocates and you heard them here on The Current say there is still a lot more work to be done. That clearly resonated with many of you. The Current's senior producer, Karin Marley, is here with some of your mail. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Matt. Yeah, lots of people wrote in to tell us about their own experiences with chronic pain. Tami McClean writes, I started experiencing lower back pain in grade nine. Almost 20 years later, I was diagnosed with ankolising spondylitis. I was one of the first women diagnosed with it. I've spent thousands of dollars getting treatment from chiropractors, massage therapist, acupuncturist, trying to manage the constant pain before and after diagnosis in the fall of 2019. I noticed muscle weakness in my legs and arms. I can't walk properly. I lurch, stumble and trip my legs constantly buzz and tingle and the tops of my feet have no feeling. My right arm buzzes and sends electric like shocks down to my wrist. I felt so unwell. I didn't want to live as I was. I thought perhaps I had developed nerve damage. My GP ordered an MRI because I told her I was unable to work. Most days I'm a residential gardener and I'm very active. Thankfully, this test showed what has been making life impossible to enjoy for three years. Diagnosed with severe spinal stenosis and two bulging discs. Due to the length of time to be diagnosed, surgery is the only option. I am currently waiting to hear from an orthopaedic surgeon. I'm relieved to know what is causing this chronic pain.

MG: Greg Ball in Alberta writes Chronic pain has quietly destroyed parts of my life over the last 33 years as a result of three separate car accidents. It's hard for me to put into words what hearing this discussed on CBC has meant to me. The medical community has never taken me seriously, and after 30 years, I finally was diagnosed with a condition caused by the first accident that, while not life threatening, has been acknowledged to be extremely painful and hard to manage. If only someone had listened to me as that 17 year old kid in 1989, maybe my life would have turned out differently.

KARIN MARLEY: Michael Wood in Kent, Philip in Nova Scotia says, I was involved in a motor vehicle accident when I was 18 years old. I was left with multiple injuries, including a crushed foot that caused severe pain even after having surgery. After trying many pain medications. I ended up taking medical cannabis. It is the best pain reliever for my problem. I sleep better and can get around easier.

MG: El Carson in Toronto writes I have been living with idiopathic chronic neuropathy in both feet for about 15 years. The first neurologist I saw told me, Well, you won't die from this, but it's unlikely to go away. There is no satisfactory treatment. I've tried every cognitive and drug therapy under the sun. It gets a little worse every year. Finally, about five years ago, the director of the pain clinic at Toronto Rehab prescribed what she described as a tiny bit of morphine. And it has allowed me to dial the pain down from a ten to an eight and get some sleep most nights. There are days when I would dearly love to double up on the opioid meds, but I simply made it a rule when I began this treatment that I was not going to end up with the even worse problem of opiate addiction. Without the small relief I can rely on from the morphine each day, I would have given up years ago. There is a place for opiate relief. It's never offered until all else has failed.

KARIN MARLEY: Lisa Pottie in Toronto also suffers with chronic pain, she says: It was an incredible it was incredible to listen to Sarah Rose's story. I've never heard from someone else who has trigeminal neuralgia. I, too, went through an initial period of misdiagnosis and disbelief. But thanks to my incredible family doctor, the pain has been under control for the past 20 years. Thank you for this episode and the affirmation. I'm also happy to hear about the national strategy on chronic pain and we'll be following it, hoping for results.

MG: We will be following it as well. Karin, thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer here at The Current. If you hear anything on this programme that you would like to comment on, do get in touch. We read all the mail and as you hear, some of it ends up on the radio. You can reach us at thecurrent@cbc.ca or on the Twitter @TheCurrentCBC. That is The Current for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's q. It's a dandy. Mr. Bruce Springsteen will be on the programme. Lots to talk about and you'll hear all about it. Tom Powers conversation with The Boss coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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