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The Current Transcript for November 11, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

I want to hold my head up high, walk tall, because that's what Byron would do and that's what he would want me to do. Mom, be proud.

MATT GALLOWAY: 11 years ago, Byron Greff was the last Canadian soldier killed in the war in Afghanistan. This morning, his mother, Candi, will place a wreath at the Cenotaph as this year's Silver Cross mother to remember the families of Canadians killed in combat. In a moment, she's here to talk about her son and sacrifice. Also on this Remembrance Day.

SOUNDCLIP

Hundreds of ships, including vitally needed tankers, are hit, burned and sunk. Victims of rolling enemy submarine. American waters become a battle front.

MG: The Second World War was fought on land, in the air and on the sea. And in his new book, the historian Ted Barrett documents the frantic efforts by Canadian Forces to keep those waters safe for Britain. He's here in an hour with the rarely told story of the war on water and the veterans who waited decades for their service to be recognised. Plus, the U.N. climate conference continues in Egypt. Commitments will be made. But can you believe in them?

SOUNDCLIP

Many of today's conflicts are linked with growing climate chaos, and today's crisis cannot be an excuse for backsliding or greenwashing.

MG: In 30 minutes, Canada's former environment minister Catherine McKenna on calling out those who promised action on climate change and don't follow through. We begin, though, with a mother's remembrance. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Mother of the last Canadian soldier killed in Afghanistan named Silver Cross Mother

Guest: Candy Greff

SOUNDCLIP

Mr. Global Byron Greff was a hard working infantry soldier, qualified paratrooper and a member of the Battalion's Reconnaissance Platoon. To say that he was highly respected by his fellow soldiers would be an understatement.

MG: 11 years ago, Master Corporal Byron Greff was killed in Kabul, Afghanistan. It was his second tour, serving with the Third Battalion of Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. He and 20 others died when a suicide bomber drove a car of explosives into an armoured vehicle carrying troops. Master Corporal Greff was the last of 1 58 Canadian soldiers killed in the war in Afghanistan. This year, his mother Candy Greff is being honoured by the Royal Canadian Legion, as its Silver Cross Mother. This morning, she'll lay a wreath at the National War Memorial in Ottawa, on behalf of all mothers who have lost children in service to Canada. Candy Greff, good morning.

CANDY GREFF: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How are you doing?

CANDY GREFF: I'm doing well. How are you this morning?

MG: I'm well. Tell me about being named the Silver Cross mother. This is something that. It's an honour, but an honour. I can imagine that no mother would want. What was it like for you when you when you heard this news?

CANDY GREFF: It is a bittersweet honour. I am so, so honoured to be named National Silver Cross Mother. It's awful and yet honourable at the same time to be able to represent. And when I say Silver Cross mothers, I always want to say Silver Cross families as well, because my husband, Byron's wife, children, siblings, they're all, they're all important.

MG: This is a process where you're nominated for this as well. I mean, there's a lot of people behind the scenes who saw something in you and saw something in in your son's story.

CANDY GREFF: Yes. Five years ago, there were numerous letters written headed by Arnie McCaskill, who is a member of the Legion here in [unintelliglbe]. And he worked tirelessly and there was so many letters written. I'm humbled and I just, I don't know. It's inspiring sacrifice that made it possible for me to do this, but it is very difficult and yet so honoured to do so.

MG: Tell me about Byron.

CANDY GREFF: Byron was a wonderful son to Greg and a really, really great husband and father, husband to Lindsey and father to Keller and to Brielle. He, in his younger years, was a bit mischievous and sort of tried to push the envelope, so to speak, as if, Mom, let's I have to go to bed at 8:00. So if I could try for 8:05, that would be awesome if I could. So he would try to do that. And I think all kids try to do that. But it's something where he would try to see if he could go just a little bit further, but very, very focussed young man and a focussed adult in his work, in his job, in the armed forces and dedicated and the brotherhood of the Armed Forces was so important with the camaraderie that he had with all of his co-workers.

MG: Tell me about his mischievous nature. I mean, sneaking into bed a little bit later is one thing when you think about him and and the sense of humour that he had and the willingness to kind of play around a little bit. I mean, what are the stories and the scenes that stand out to you?

CANDY GREFF: Always the one that that comes to my mind. That is April 1st. April Fool's Day. Him and his two younger siblings decided they would play a good one on Mom. So I went downstairs and Byron said, Mom, could you grab me a glass of water? I said, Certainly I can. So I went to the sink, cranked on the tap, full blast cold. Little did I know that the three of them had taken an elastic band and it had a sprayer to the side. They, they elastic put elastic band around the sprayer. So I got a good blast. Wow. They held for a while. And I did too, honestly, that was hilarious.

MG: What does that tell you about the kind of man he was?

CANDY GREFF: It was like, if I'm going to do something, it's going all the way. We're going to go all out with whatever it is that I'm that I'm planning to do here. And that is one of the things.

MG: When he enlisted in the military. Were you surprised that was a choice that he made?

CANDY GREFF: It was a surprise to us. He had done in grade nine, he had gone to cadets, army cadets in Red Deer, which is close to us in LA. Come here. But other than that, then grade ten went by. Grade 11 went by. And in grade 12, after Christmas, when he went back to school, he came home one day and he said, You know what, I'd like to join the armed forces. And Greg and I just were sort of shocked because there are no military close relatives enlisted at all or in the past had served. So but with his determination and he had that look about him where I'm doing this and I'm going to do it to the best of my ability. And his determination was very, very evident that day.

MG: That look about him. I mean, how would you describe that look?

CANDY GREFF: It was almost like he's focussing on something. He looks straight ahead. The determination was so you could almost feel it. This is what I'm doing, and I'm going to do an excellent job at this. It was a look that I have a hard time to describe.

MG: No, no. I was just wondering if he ever told you why. I mean, that look is one thing, and clearly he was driven with purpose. Did he ever tell you why he wanted to enlist?

CANDY GREFF: I wished I'd asked. He never said anything as to his reason why he wanted to enlist. I wished I'd have asked him that because I would have loved to know if there was a body or if there was something he had seen somewhere where this might be... Maybe it was an advertisement on on TV or something. They'll have the armed forces advertisements sometimes, and I really don't have a clue why he decided to join, but I knew he would follow through, and that was the kind of fellow that he was. Even mowing the lawn. All right. I need to go mow the lawn. And he was ten or 11 years old and he would do an excellent job. Yeah, it was his determination, so.

MG: He was deployed to Afghanistan for the first time in 2007.

CANDY GREFF: Correct.

MG: What was that like for you?

CANDY GREFF: Scary. Just very, very scary. Because we knew from all of the news that that people were being killed. There were all sorts of conflicts that were going on. And we heard that only from the news. But we knew he was trained well. The military does such an awesome job of training these young people. And I say young people. It's not always. But Byron was he was 17 and turned 18 when he was in Quebec at basic training. And so we knew he was well trained. We were always worried. I was always on edge. If that phone would ring, I would quickly check the call display to see who it was because I was afraid. However, because he was so well trained, it sort of felt made you feel a little bit easier about him being there. So that did help somewhat, knowing that the training was excellent.

MG: I was going to say, just as parents, I mean, our whole thing is, is the protection of our kids. And we'll do anything to make sure that our kids are as safe as possible. And when that's out of your hands and you know, they're in a dangerous situation, I just wonder how you would cope with that.

CANDY GREFF: One foot in front of the other and trust. Trust in the military and trust that he is going to follow every command, every order to the tee, which he always did, even as a child. As I say, like mowing the lawn. It was you... you need to do this properly. You need to do this in that order and never back up with the mower, all of those things. And so it was the trust that the military trained him so well. And they did.

MG: He did a second tour in Afghanistan. What was he doing during that second tour?

CANDY GREFF: He was training in a Afghan national army, so he was doing P.T. with them, physical training. He was teaching them. What he had been taught is how I understand that that mission was going.

MG: Passing that knowledge along. Yeah.

CANDY GREFF: Yes. Yes. And helping them so that they could help protect their own country.

MG: What did he tell you during that tour about what life was like for him?

CANDY GREFF: He was very close mouthed about everything that he was doing. And I think if there were any things that happened, either 2007 when he was there and thankfully he came back safe and sound. So it made it a little easier for him to go in 2011. But he would not share anything with us about either tour. I think with the camaraderie and possibly debriefing, I'm sure that that's what they do. I know in the hospital setting, if we had an incident, we would debrief as well, following an incident if there were any. So I think that's where he he vented and and worked through whatever had gone on, because I knew there were things as we followed the news, of course, with what was taking place there. So unfortunately, he didn't share anything with us.

MG: You did follow the news, though. I mean, you paid it close attention to what was going on as he's there.

CANDY GREFF: Yes. Yes. And I do remember seeing an article that the children were flying their kites in Afghanistan. And to me, I it warmed my heart because I feel they were doing a good job in order for the children to feel safe, to go out into the field and fly their kites and I'm sure walk down the street and all of the other things that we take for granted here in our wonderful country.

MG: He came back home during that tour, right?

CANDY GREFF: He did. He came back. Byron and Lindsey were married before he left on that second tour. And Lindsey was expecting and when he came back to see his daughter, Brielle, be born, she was born October 15th. We did see him and he was scheduled to come home for Christmas that year. And we were looking forward to getting together for Christmas, all of us, and maybe doing a photo and then his tour would have been done in the spring. So we did have to say goodbye to him. We went to see Brielle and Keller and the family and went out for a breakfast and said goodbye to him, gave him a hug, said, See you in Christmas.

MG: [Uninelligible].

CANDY GREFF: Didn't get to. Yeah, yeah. I have to take a deep breath because that is difficult to... Why didn't I hang on to him? I should hung on to him and then he wouldn't have had to go. However, determined as he was, I knew he was going back and I wasn't thinking that anything like this was going to take place.

MG: Is that something that you run through your mind on a regular basis that that going in for breakfast in that moment?

CANDY GREFF: Yes, there are there are times where the grief overwhelms. And if you're driving, you need to pull by the side of the road. Take a moment, a couple of deep breaths, a big drink of water, and then you can carry on. So it's it is difficult to to for those memories to come back.

MG: The thing with grief is that, I mean, it's not this linear thing, right? Like that. It takes all of these different paths and it kind of finds its way. Where you happen to be.

CANDY GREFF: That's right. That's exactly right. And it'll hide. It hides. It hides deep down inside of you and. And it'll resurface whenever it wants to. And. And you need to stand up tall, take a deep breath, and carry on one foot in front of the other.

MG: How do you think about him now, 11 years later?

CANDY GREFF: We think about him as a dedicated son, father, soldier, uncle, brother. We're so proud of him. And when we think of him or I see a Canadian flag, you stand up tall and you walk tall and you hold your head up high because you want to do right by him. I really do. I want to do right by him, by Greg and by Lindsey, the whole family. I want to do right by everyone involved who loved him so much.

MG: What does that mean to you when you say you want to do right by him? I mean, how does- because, again, with grief, one of the things that happens is you see the people we've lost in your actions in the actions of others. What is it that you do to do right by him? As you say.

CANDY GREFF: Honour him. Visit him at the Fairview Cemetery. Think of him with pride and hope. And pray that he's looking down at us with pride that we're carrying on and holding our heads up high so that we can make him as proud of us as we are of him.

MG: You mentioned the kites. The images of the kites flying in Afghanistan.

CANDY GREFF: Yes.

MG: Your son was the last Canadian soldier to die in Afghanistan. And I wonder if you you follow the news, clearly, you're following the news of what happened last summer when the country fell to the Taliban and many of the gains that your son fought for seemed to be being pulled back. What goes through your mind when when you see that?

CANDY GREFF: When I see that, it saddens me for the Afghan people. Matt It's it's awful for them that things have regressed to what they are now. They no longer can, the children, I'm sure, don't feel safe to go and fly kites in their field, walk down the street and not be worried about the next vehicle that's coming by. So it saddens me to see what's gone on and what has happened to their country.

MG: Let me end with where we started, which is this recognition, as the Silver Cross, mother of you said very clearly, that this is Silver Cross mothers and Silver Cross families. Do you feel as though you're obviously representing your son, but but that you will be representing more than just one individual?

CANDY GREFF: Absolutely. I'm so honoured to represent all Silver Cross mothers and families in this country. And I feel they need to know that we understand and we get it. And because of this heartbreaking loss that we've all had to endure, we are bonded, all of us. And the physical being of our loved one is gone. But our love is never gone. It'll be here forever.

MG: And so part of this recognition is the process of laying a wreath, which is in some ways a simple thing. And it's the opposite of very of being simple as well.

CANDY GREFF: Absolutely. There is, there's a lot of things that go into laying that wreath. A lot of people to think about Byron will be the first one that I'll be thinking of. But our entire family and all of the Silver Cross mothers who have had t. Go through and continue to go through all of the pain of losing a loved one and a son or daughter..

MG: It'll be quite a moment.

CANDY GREFF: Yeah. Yes. I've laid a wreath at other Remembrance Day services several times, once in Edmonton at the Butter Dome, once in Red Deer. And each and every time, you pause afterwards. And that is. Where Byron comes to my mind and I think he's going to stand beside me to help me and or be looking down and saying, Good job, mom, you did it again.

MG: He sounds like he was really quite something. And you will have a lot to think about in that moment, but I'm really, really glad to have the chance to talk to you and to talk to you about your son as well. Thank you very much.

CANDY GREFF: It's been wonderful to speak with you, Matt. Thank you so much.

MG: Take good care.

CANDY GREFF: You, too.

MG: Candy Greff is this year's Silver Cross Mother an honour given by the Royal Canadian Legion. Her son, Master Corporal Byron Greff, was the last of 158 Canadian soldiers killed in the war in Afghanistan. This morning, Candy Greff is laying a wreath at the National War Memorial in Ottawa, as part of today's Remembrance Day ceremonies. And we will bring you that ceremony here on Radio One as part of our special coverage. Marcia Young and I will guide you through Remembrance Day with special interviews, and a moment of silence. That starts just before 11:00 a.m. If you're in Atlantic Canada it's an hour later, just before noon, 12:25 in Newfoundland. The CBC News is next. And then we are about halfway through the U.N. climate summit.

SOUNDCLIP

Sometimes I really worry about Canada. I worry about our economy being overinvested in fossil fuels. And let's focus on really historic game changing innovation that we have. The good news is I've seen the government investing, making big steps, working with businesses that are providing innovation that's going to lower emissions and that's doing it right now and on real opportunities. But we should be doing that because it's good for the economy. We should be doing that because we are in a global world. Pollution doesn't know any borders and we should be doing that because most of us want a sustainable future for our kids and grandkids and future generations.

MG: That's Canada's former minister of the Environment and Climate, Catherine McKenna at COP 27. We'll talk to her about greenwashing and holding people to account for the promises they make to tackle climate change, promises that often aren't follow through and might actually be actively undermined. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Catherine McKenna on the need for businesses to back up their net-zero pledges

Guest: Catherine McKenna

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the Canadian author and historian Ted Barris will join me to talk about the battle of the Atlantic and why one of Winston Churchill's greatest fears was German U-boats. But first, we head to Egypt and the promises made at COP 27.

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SOUNDCLIP

We are in the fight of our lives and we are losing. Greenhouse gas emissions keep growing, global temperatures keep rising, and our planet is fast approaching tipping points that will make climate chaos irreversible. We are on the highway to climate hell, with our foot still on the accelerator.

MG: That's the UN secretary general Antonio Guterres. His is one of a chorus of climate scientists, activists and experts calling on greater commitments from national governments-- and corporations-- to curb emissions. Catherine McKenna is among them. She is chair of a UN expert panel looking at net zero commitments from 'non-state actors' -- businesses, financial institutions, cities and regions. She also is Canada's former minister of environment and climate. We reached her at the airport in Sharm el-Sheikh. Hello.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Hello.

MG: So the nature of conferences like COP is that people will make promises and sometimes these promises are followed up on. Often they are not. You've said that we have to draw a red line on greenwashing. How big of an issue are those promises that can be, in your words, little more than empty slogans and hype if we are to actually get to a state of net zero?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, I mean, the reality is, is super easy to just say, hey, I'm going to be net zero by 2050. It's a heck of a lot harder to do the work that's required. And there are companies that are working hard to reduce their emissions, their banks, financial institutions that are moving their investments from fossil fuels to clean. And they're also cities and regions that are doing great things, investing in public transit. But the reality is a lot of folks are not doing that. It's actually hard to figure it out because there is a huge lack of reporting transparently. But the analysis has shown that that I mean, some of it is pure greenwashing. Some of it is maybe not understanding what's required. And so that's why the secretary general said, look, we do not have time. We have to peak our emissions by 2025, reduce them by 45% by 2030. We're far from that. And so if you are voluntarily going to say, I'm a climate leader, then you actually have to be walking the talk. And that's why we're being very clear on one what you have to do and to what you cannot do otherwise. You are going to be following falling into the category of greenwashing.

MG: But do you believe those industries when they say that they understand the urgency and that they're committed to helping to be part of the solution, not the problem?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: I mean, I certainly hope they do that. I mean, if you don't recognise that you need to futureproof your business, that you need to actually be part of the solution, that you need to be innovating and actually making money with new solutions that we need, then I don't know that you're really doing your job, but you certainly are living up to your commitment, even to consumers. I mean, you're the reason I think, you know, so many people are doing this is because consumers are saying, hey, you know, I want to be supporting a company that's doing right by the environment. And so if you're doing not just business, I mean, the consumer has every right as the public to be saying, okay, is this true? And I think it's actually really important because I was thinking about this. How do I talk about this in a way that makes any sense to anyone? Well, when I talk to young people, they're all looking. Many of them are looking to work for a company that's actually reducing their emissions, that isn't just buying cheap credits as opposed to doing the hard work. If you're, you know, someone with a money invested and a pension plan and you hear it's net zero, I think you wouldn't think that they might still be investing in new fossil fuel supply. So I think it's actually something that that's really important. I mean, you don't want to be misleading consumers and the public and in fact, you want to be doing the work. But I think what's good now is I think we've just said this is what's required in very clear terms, which isn't always what happens in the climate world. People talk in a way it's very hard to understand. And the secretary general is one of the best clean talkers I know. I try to be very practical. So these are just very practical things. And to be honest, it's not actually that it's a lot. It's hard to do, but it's not that hard to actually measure. Your emissions need to go down ambitiously, all of your emissions, and she needs to be investing in clean solutions. And at the same time, we need to be thinking about, you know, how do we make sure everyone's benefiting? So that's what we're doing and really being clear about what is required and what is not allowed.

MG: I guess people are just trying to measure intentions. And so one of the recommendations is that non-state actors should not be allowed to make pledges, that they're going to get to net zero and then go ahead and lobby to undermine government climate policies. How big of an issue was this when you were the minister here in Canada that people in organisations would promise one thing and then try to lobby to to water down those regulations?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: I mean, look, I'm in a positive. On a positive note, I was able to get support of businesses and banks and even an oil and gas company to support carbon pricing. And we built on what four provinces had done. So there's the positive side. The negative side is that I tried to lobby against policies, policies that would actually enable these businesses to do more. But it's really negative because we we know you can't say on the one hand, it's up to government to act so they can set the frameworks for businesses to act and on the other hand, go and push government not to act or, you know, really push the public mount campaigns against good policy. So it is a huge issue. And I think you certainly cannot say I am a climate leader and then be pushing against climate policies. That's just not consistent. And I think any person, regular person member of the public would agree.

MG: Is it time to name and shame those companies and organisations that are doing that?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, I mean, there are certainly people that are doing that. Everyone from environmentalists. But I think, you know, a lot of young people are looking at businesses and asking them tough questions when they go into interviews. And I've watched with regular people like they want to know, is their bank actually walking the talk? And, you know, it's interesting because there's so many ways you can kind of greenwash. So you can say, well, I'm reducing the intensity of my emissions. And I think most people say, well, what does that mean? You know, it's a measure to show, you know, the that your emissions per unit are going down. But the planet doesn't care about that. They care about your absolute emissions going down. So your emissions intensity could go down while your emissions are going up and you're saying it's all good. You know, there's also the use of credits. So you're you're actually buying often cheap credits. It could be some projects and who knows where some point is even hurting indigenous people or local communities. And you're saying, okay, well I'm going to continue to pollute because I'm offsetting my pollution and we've been clear that you've got to do the work.

MG: One of the things that you say in the report is that non-state actors should not be able to make net zero pledges while continuing to build or invest in new fossil fuel supplies. And the secretary general, Antonio Guterres, called it a toxic cover up and a scam. Where does that leave the pledges for net zero from Canadian energy companies, companies that have said they want to try to get to net zero, but they are still involved in oil and gas production.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, I mean, new fossil fuel supply is just it's just not consistent with the science. It's not consistent even with the recent report of the International Energy Agency that while there is a challenge, yes, in the short term, as a result of the illegal [unintelligible] work, there's already enough existing supply out there. And so you certainly cannot say you are a climate leader and then be building more possible supply, which is literally the problem. I'll be clear, and I've said this publicly, like fossil fuel companies, one are making massive profit, huge profits only because of an illegal war. And instead of taking those profits and reinvesting them in diversifying, getting into renewables and drastically figuring out ways to reduce their emissions, working on their supply chain, by the way, they are also responsible for the use of their products, which includes, you know, they should be focussing on using cars and moving to electric cars instead of that. What they're doing is they're doing share buybacks. They're giving huge executive compensation and then they're demanding more subsidies from the government to reduce their emissions. It just overall, that is just not consistent. But once again, these are voluntary pledges. And you can go to I mean, often see this in airports. I'll go to airports or you'll be walking down the street and you'll see a billboard often from some of fossil fuel companies saying, you know, I'm not here and beautiful pictures of the planet. And I think a lot of people are scratching their heads. I mean, I think most people would hope or expect that if you're a fossil fuel company and you're saying you're going to be net zero, you're not talking about some idyllic future where there's going to be some amazing technological breakthrough. They think you're doing the work right now.

MG: I guess I mean, if you hear from the Pathways Alliance, which is a group of oil and gas companies in Canada, and they say in a statement that they are laser focussed on getting to a net zero world, but they also want to become the world's preferred energy producer. Is it possible at all to square that in your mind?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, I mean, I just think the facts really show that if they're laser focussed, all this money, why would they not be investing it in a way to reduce their emissions? I mean, I don't know. I just I'm just like, in a way, a regular person to just scratching my head and saying, well, if you're really not laser focussed, why aren't you investing in that? And to be honest, why aren't you future proofing your business? And there is some mythology going on. So I spend a lot of time talking to European politicians and, you know, they're not rushing for a new fossil fuel supply from Canada. Germany came over and they were very excited about green hydrogen. And the thing about Canada's, we're so fortunate that we have all these critical minerals for the economy of the future. We have huge green hydrogen, potential wind, solar. And that's really what we've got to go. I it's funny, having left politics and spending more time, actually internationally, sometimes I really worry about Canada. I worry about our economy being overinvested in fossil fuels and not focussed on really historic game changing innovation that we have now. I mean, the good news is I've seen the government, I'm not part of it, but they're investing, making big bets, working with business businesses that are providing innovation and that's going to lower emissions and that's doing it right now and real opportunities. But we should be doing that. We should be doing that because it's good for the economy. We should be doing that because we are in a global world. Pollution doesn't know any borders and we should be doing that because most of us want a sustainable future for our kids and grandkids and future generations.

MG: You mentioned banking earlier. When you hear from the Canadian Bankers Association saying that they're, you know, focussed on on financing and investing in lower carbon businesses, but also working with the customers that they do have in higher carbon sectors to finance their transition efforts. What do you make of that? Is that the way forward to try to figure out how to work with the customers that you have to get to that better place and to get to those that cleaner future?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: I mean, look, we're doing our report that, you know, you can't just divest and, you know, and get rid of assets that are going to harm. You know, it could be, you know, workers and communities, but it doesn't mean you invest in new fossil supply. It means that you actually work these companies to reduce their emissions and you show the work that you are reducing emissions through your portfolio. So once again, it's all measurable. Like I said, now I think I've just become pretty touched on this. I just want people to show the work. I say to my kids, You're not going to get an A, just showing up in class. You're going to have to work hard, do your homework and deliver. And that's what everyone should expect. And you know what? Businesses are used to doing this. They have to report on a lot of indicators. Now, what's interesting in our report, and this is really clear, that there are huge limits to voluntary initiatives. I mean, there's a competitiveness issue because not all companies are part of these initiatives, but it's also hard to enforce. And so we've said that we really need to see a move to regulation where governments put it in sign and law that you need to have if you're a big company, need to have a target, you need to have a transition plan and have, you know, short term targets and measure progress, report on progress. And that has to be done in a way that it's public and it's verified and that people can actually see what you're doing. And we're seeing in Europe, Europe is moving forward on regulation. The UK is moving forward on regulation. The US has this draught rules for part of disclosure. And so, you know, I think that's where we need to go. And I have to give a shout out to Mark Carney because he created what was called the hub course on climate related financial disclosure. So it was really about disclosing your risk. How risky was it? Were your investments? And people thought at the time when he did it, I actually remember that an event and he was kind of like, Oh, that's interesting that that's going to go nowhere. It's now moving to be the, you know, the law in many places. And that's the goodness of voluntary initiative that they can, you know, create the standards and criteria and then they can be picked up by government. But I do want to say, like, I don't want to be I'm someone who's actually just a realistic optimist some days and optimistic realist. There are companies that are doing the work. The problem is that's not all of them. And it's a real challenge because if you have folks that aren't doing the work, everyone suffers.

MG: But there are also organisations. You mentioned Mark Carney that signed up to his defence plan last year, that last year at COP, the Global Financial Alliance for Net zero. And then they had to walk back essentially this commitment that would force its members to commit to phasing out the financing of oil and gas and coal because those organisations or organisations that were part of it got cold feet and backed off. What does that tell you about a level of commitment? But also, again, back to that idea of of intention and will. What does that tell you about the will of some of those big companies?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, look, I'm not going to talk about the Will's people. I'm just going to talk about. We've set out criteria and standards. And that's what, you know, the secretary general asked us to do. And really, we believe that that is what folks should be following. We're just building, in fact, on on what is out there in terms of best practises. And I think also, I mean, there has to be consequences if you're not you're not playing by the rules. But I think look, I'm hopeful that by being clear, one, it will put pressure on businesses to really abide by what they've committed to. But it will also empower consumers that when you go, whether it's the grocery store, whether it's, you know, to buy some clothes and you want to be doing right by the planet, that you'll notice the company and you'll be they've made this commitment and that you can go online. So there's this work being done to have a database. Basically, you can go look up your company and see how they're doing, just actually on the tracking and that data will be the task because then people can actually decide also with their pocketbooks. They can decide what tax they want to support. They can decide what era, what companies they want to support. They can be aware of, you know, what is happening with fossil fuel companies. Are they becoming energy companies? Are they actually walking the talk and reducing their emissions? Because I think in the end, I really think it's important that people have power. You know, every every degree matters in this race against time that we're on. Sometimes I think it's completely bonkers that we all can't just get so focussed on this in a way that also is good for jobs and the economy and where, you know, it's used so far too often. But I mean, you know what Wayne Gretzky said where the puck stopping. But by the way, the puck is there that we've seen huge drops in the price of renewables, in battery storage. We've seen huge innovation. And we've also seen the public become much more savvy and much more concerned, rightly concerned, because we're seeing the impacts of climate change all over the world, including in Canada.

MG: Let me ask you just a couple of more quick questions before you go. One is just around the language that the secretary general made right at the very beginning of our conversation that we're on, you know, a highway to climate. Hell, our foot is on the accelerator. Do you think language like that is helpful in motivating people to take action?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: You know, I spend so much time trying to think about how do I convince people that if you're motivated to act because, you know, you're desperately worried about climate change, if you're motivated to act because you think it's going to be good for the economy, if you're motivated to act because I don't know your partner, as you said, in a way, I don't care. I think, you know, there are different ways that you communicate things. I think the secretary general, he's got a very specific role. He's supposed to represent the people of the world. And for people who are not act cops, they're like regular people. It could be, you know, someone who's suffering. There's a massive drought in East Africa that's putting millions of people at risk. You know, the folks that are suffering huge flooding, half of Pakistan was flooded or the communities, you know, people in communities in Prince Edward Island where they were hit by a massive storm and other powers for weeks. He's got to speak for everyone and he's very clear about what the problem is. You know, I may speak a little bit differently sometimes, depending on the audience and I think to the business community. I think there are two things they really three things they need to think about. One, they need to think about risk and not just down to rest your business of not moving to a cleaner future. It means risk. You know that you are going to be held accountable by the public. You're going to get called out. And then there's the opportunity, the opportunity to create new solutions, to innovate, to attract young people because they want to be working with companies who care about the environment to attract business from regular people who think, okay, this is good, they're doing the work. But as I say, at the end of the day, it's about the future we want for our kids. Certainly countries are on the front lines, but also major businesses, the large emitters are having a huge impact. And we need them to act and we need them to live up to the commitments they make, especially if they're making them voluntarily.

MG: The next COP, you're leaving Egypt now. The next cop is being hosted in the United Arab Emirates. The president of that nation has promised to provide fossil fuels for as long as the world needs them. What message does that send? Specifically talk about that next generation. What message does that send if this is an urgent fight?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Oh, well, let me tell you, the the science on this is clear what the world needs and the international energy is blotted out. We're actually peaking or plateauing with fossil fuels. So, I mean, on one hand, I don't know what he means by that. On the other hand, I guess you can be cynical and say, well, let's just continue doing this forever. Obviously, that makes no sense and that is got to change. [Unintelliglbe] would be part of it?

MG: What sense does it make to hold a climate change conference in a nation that is committed to continuing to produce oil?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, the good news is I certainly don't decide where climate conferences are. But I mean, I think that's a huge challenge. But the reality is that action has to move outside of climate conferences. I was at the COP21. We were negotiating a treaty, they got this massive deal. So that was where a lot of action was. Climate conferences, there's a huge limit. First of all, I mean, I'm in Egypt. I mean, a lot of activists can't even get here. So, you know, there are a lot of people doing a lot of things that aren't walking around the halls of COP. I don't want to diminish COP. It's a moment in time. It's when people should be held accountable. It's where countries are supposed to show more ambition. But I think that, you know, where COP is obviously does send a signal. But action needs to happen every single day in every single community. We need every business to be working hard, to come up with new solutions to be reducing their emissions. We need every city to do that. We need banks to be financing the opportunities for clean. We need $1,000,000,000,000 for renewable energy in in less developed countries. So I don't know. COPs are what they are. They are. You know, there's certainly good things that come out of cop. I would certainly hope the report that we did for the secretary general is one of those good things. But I actually more focus how do we just be practical every single day? How do we measure what matters? How do we do that transparently and publicly? And certainly in government we had to do that. And that was we took our loans by working hard and the government is on track, is seeing, you know, working really hard to reduce their emissions. So I think there's a lot of action as of cops, and that's the right thing. It's just what people do every single day.

MG: And you remain optimistic.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: What choice do you have? I don't know. I did my report. I was I was trying to think of something meaningful to say. It's always very harsh. The very end of my report. I kind of been, you know, like here are the same rules and all these things. And then I went back to swimming. I was I'm a swimmer and I was a competitive swimmer. And I thought, like, when people are saying, we can never do this, I just we used to say in swimming, we say winners never quit and quitters never win. So we don't have a choice. We actually have a lot of the solutions. There is no lack of money in the world. We are smart. In Canada, we have huge opportunities here. We just have to be focussed on an ambitious goal. We need to put our head down and do the work and you got to strive for the finish. And that's what, I don't know, did me well in swimming. I think maybe we could all deliver lessons from that and apply it to what we need to do when it comes to climate change.

MG: Catherine McKenna, great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Catherine McKenna is chair of the United Nations’ High‑Level Expert Group on the Net Zero Emissions Commitments of Non-State Entities. In our conversation, she referred to the drought in East Africa. We'll talk more about that, next week on this programme.

SOUNDCLIP

We shall fight in seas and oceans. We shall fight growing confidence and growing strength in the air. They shall defend our island, whatever that cost may be.

MG: In 90 seconds. Canada's role in that fight on the seas and oceans. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in just a minute. Stay with us.

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How the Canadian navy’s efforts in the Atlantic helped defeat Nazi Germany

Guest: Ted Barris

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

Off the coast of Ireland, along the vital westerly approaches to the British Isles. The U-boats lie in waiting for five and six of them together, working in flotillas like wolves. They will stop a convoy for days at a stretch, biding their time until the chance of wind and weather offers the fattest prise to the torpedoes. All that is left is a group of half frozen, oil smeared men and a lifeboat lurching on the green crops of the sea.

MG: Lorne Greene knows how to tell a story that's Lorne Greene. In 1941, narrating Churchill's Island, part of a National Film Board series, The Stakes for the Battle of the Atlantic couldn't have been higher for the Canadian Navy. The threats posed by the German U-boats were deadly. The historian Ted Barris delved into that story in his new book, Battle of the Atlantic. Gauntlet to Victory. And Ted Barris is with me in studio now. Good morning.

TED BARRIS: Matt. Nice to be with you.

MG: Great to see you again.

TED BARRIS: And especially today.

MG: Especially today when we. Okay. So let me ask you about this about today in the introduction to the book. There is a line about why you write and you write in part to put a human face on war. When you think of that and you think of this day and we'll speak about this book in a moment, but what does this day mean to you?

TED BARRIS: Well, particularly in the context of this battle, which was the longest battle of the war went 2074 days, it's impossible to try to contain that between the covers of a book. So I've always tried to get to the veterans who experienced these things, whether it's my book about D-Day or the Dambusters or Vimy, to get a sense of the human experience. And so I stand at 11:00, not in silence. I'm hearing the voices of all those people. I've probably had the the gift of six or 7000 interviews with veterans over 50 years of doing this sort of thing. And so they're all buzzing in my head. Most of them gone now. But I think of them. I hear them and I and I and remind myself that it's a 365 day a year job telling these stories. I'm out on the road. And so every day is Remembrance Day for me.

MG: Well, we're glad you're here on this day. Let's talk about this story we heard again the tones of Lorne Greene.

TED BARRIS: The voice of doom.

MG: Which was what he was known as. And telling those stories, talking about the German U-boats. The British prime minister, Winston Churchill, said the thing that scared him most during the Second World War were the U-boats. Why was that?

TED BARRIS: Well, the battle was between the convoys getting from North America to Britain and back. And the U-boats attempting to prevent that. And as a historian, I'm so seduced by the combat. You just go for it. To get the stories of the Royal Canadian Navy sailors on the Corvettes battling the U-boats at night, and the odds were absolutely the worst. I mean, you could have as many as Lorne said, four or five or six. By 1942, there could be 30 or 40 or 50 U-boats attacking these convoys, escorted by Canadian Corvettes. And I have, you know, images of these these men dealing with that incredible cold and fear and sucked into those battles. You're writing about it. And then suddenly I get a letter from a woman in eastern Ontario who sends me a letter written by her aunt, born in Haliburton, Ontario, living in Britain. And she writes a letter on September the third, 1939, the very first day of the war. And she talks about blackout curtains going up. The lights are all gone. They're painting everything black and rationing is about to begin. And I suddenly realised that the Battle of the Atlantic is, yes, combat. But it's about keeping England alive. This is all designed to save 40 million people who are civilians and the military in Britain so that Churchill doesn't have to come to Ottawa to conduct the war from this side of the ocean, at least in Britain. Allies.

MG: These were German aces. We talk about aces in the sky. These are German aces in the water and beneath the.

TED BARRIS: Surface of the water. They were known as the Challenge Kings. We're talking about men such as Otto Kretschmer, who was later captured. Gunter Prynne, who was the guy who went into Scapa Flow in the Orkneys and sank a battleship right under the British noses. And a guy named Joaquim Shipka, who challenged his two mates to to sink as much tonnage as they possibly could for a container, a box of champagne, as as a gift of the victory. I mean, these men were out for, you know, Nazi ism, and they're out there for to score these great battles. But they were out to strangle Britain into submission and take Britain out of the war. That was their objective. And they came that close.

MG: That close. Why do you say 'that close' with a snap of the finger?

TED BARRIS: In 1942, when the Royal Canadian Navy was responsible for that massive stretch of ocean between where the Air Force could provide coverage from North America or Iceland or the U.K., that middle of the North Atlantic was colonies known as the Black Pit. It was it was a killing zone for the U-boats. And in 1942, our responsibility is the Canadian Navy. And the merchant navy was to get the supplies through. And we were responsible in that period, late 1940 to December, for 80% of the losses we were fighting, 50% of the U-boat flotilla. And so Churchill panics, thinking that the supply, the oil is going to dry up, the supplies are going to are going to dry up and be strangled, and his countrymen will die because they have nothing. And so he calls the Canadians off the North Atlantic. You've got to retrain these people. You've got to be refitting your ships, giving them better detection equipment, because guess what? The Royal Canadian Navy were the poor sisters to the Royal Navy and U.S. Navy having those technological capabilities of tracking down the U-boats. We were doing it. Brute strength.

MG: Go back even a few years before that. I mean, you could take a look at 1939 when the Canadian Forces joined this war. What how would you describe that, that the scale of the Navy at that point? Because what happens is fascinating after.

TED BARRIS: T hanks for raising that point at the beginning of the war. Canada had 13 warships in September 1939 when that letter I was describing was written and helped put into focus for me what the battle was about. We had 13 warships by the end of the war. Six years later, we had 405 fighting ships. And that's because CD Howe undertook this massive campaign to build Corvettes, and they were being drowned out by shipbuilding yards in the Great Lakes and New Brunswick and Quebec like sausage. And so the Navy expands in terms of the ship power, but we only had 3000 regular sailors at the beginning of the war. We needed volunteers, too. So the RC and V r the Royal Canadian Volunteer Naval Reserve calls Navy veterans to join up. And so people from all walks of life join the Navy and populate these Corvettes to fight the U-boats. But they had to learn how to do it. So that's why Churchill hauls them off the Atlantic. Then the losses got worse at the end of 1942. The Canadians get refitted, they get their new weaponry, and then Churchill sends them to Operation Torch, which is the big convoy leaving Britain and going to North Africa to deliver thousands and thousands of troops to fight the Afrika Korps. And on the way, guess who scores the most? U-boat kills the Canadians, three of them in a month. And so suddenly the skill that has been, you know, dormant on the North Atlantic in a more confined space like the Mediterranean was, where they could track the U-boats better. They had the equipment in the training. Boom, boom, boom. Canadians are performing. They go back to the North Atlantic and five months later, the back of the wolf packs is broken. They're dispersed because the Canadians are more skilled and have the capability to do what they've been doing all along, but with better tools.

MG: How did Canada. I mean, you mentioned C.D., how he comes up in the book as well. How did Canada manage to pull this off and scale up? In some ways, it's like a fighting force emerges almost overnight.

TED BARRIS: Yeah. And that's a magical quotient in this story. Well, first of all, how was hell bent on building the ships? And, you know, people said, why are we spending these millions of dollars? Well, what's the alternative if we lose the war?

MG: And this is a public and private initiative. People talk about public private partnerships. Now, this was bringing in everybody.

TED BARRIS: Yeah. He brought in what he called the dollar a year men, the heads of industry from across the country, to to begin to spark the construction of these ships and the recruitment and so on. And interestingly, the first 255 Corvettes, which were built in the in the first sort of order over the first couple of years, they were known as flower class Corvettes. They were all named after flowers. That was the millions of dollars that Canada invested in the Corvettes. Then how got cities and towns all across Canada to step up and civilians beginning in those communities began to contribute money. And that's why the Corvettes are named after cities and towns, Camrose and Amherst and all those places in between, so that people in the country are really part of the process of building this navy.

MG: But again, as you say, you need to populate those ships as well.

TED BARRIS: Yeah. And some of the stories of the men who joined are fascinating. Many years ago, Matt, I don't know if you can remember your first interview with a veteran, but mine was I was scared to death. This was back in the seventies. And I met a man named Harold Doig, who was related to my family. And I sat him down in a of course, a legion a legion hall in Saskatoon. And he consented to an interview. And he told me about his being born in Winnipeg and his brother George in Winnipeg. Now, that's about as far from the ocean as you can imagine. And they both joined the Navy. And people say to me all the time, how the heck can kids from the prairies deal with the ocean when they've never seen it? Well, easy. As Harold told me, they know how to deal with a horizon, less sky. They don't have to have mountains and buildings and trees to connect with. They they relate to open space. So the prairie transposed to the ocean was easy for them to get used to. Once they got over the seasickness. So Harold talked about he he and his and his and his brother George going to sea. George was involved. He was about 20 years old when he went to sea, and they were all even younger than that, lied about their ages to get in. George goes off on the Murmansk run. This is an extension of the Atlantic run between North America and Britain to help the Soviets stay in the war. They run the gauntlet. The convoys go along the North Cape of Norway, which is occupied by the Germans. And so the Luftwaffe is there. And the big battleships, the purpose in the Scharnhorst are all up the fjords waiting for the convoys and to pounce on them. And yet 40, 50 convoys delivered goods because Churchill Province promised them to Stalin at Murmansk. And George goes on those convoys into the Arctic, where the weather is the worst, where the ice floes could kill you as much as the German Luftwaffe were running the gauntlet to Murmansk. And Harold said when his brother George, when he saw him again after a year or two, he came back to Halifax. And Harold said George had aged in those two years. His hair had gone white at the temples. It had been such a stressful time at sea, so they were able to relate to the space, but the trauma was no less impactful.

MG: The great fear, as you said, that Churchill had was that that supply line would be choked off and 40 million people on the island would find themselves at the mercy of the Nazis. There were contingency plans that were put into place. What was Operation Fish?

TED BARRIS: Absolutely remarkable. You always think of Churchill as being, you know, we will stand on the beaches. We will defend to the very last.

MG: W'll never surrender.

TED BARRIS: Yeah, exactly. And yet he planned just in case that they should take all of their resources, all of their securities, all of their bullion. Something like 1800 million pounds of bullion across the ocean to Ottawa and Montreal to create a shadow bank in Canada. And so two convoys in the summer of 1940 when things were really at their worst in terms of the near invasion by the Germans and the R.A.F., really down to the very last few aircraft and two convoys sneak across the North Atlantic to deliver this bullion absolutely unscathed. They actually got across. The only thing they had to contend with was the horrible weather in the North Atlantic.

MG: And the weight of the gold as well.

TED BARRIS: So the massive it was almost crushing when you consider that they were carrying these boxes of gold and the ships were just creaking under the weight. But they did it. They accomplished it. Operation Fish was it was a challenge but a great success. It wasn't ever needed because the convoys continued to get through. This is a statistic that I find boggling to in spite of the decimation that you and I have been talking about to the convoys by the U-boats in the first three years or so of the war, the Merchant Navy managed to get 25,343 trans-Atlantic trips in. In other words, for the 2074 days that the battle raged on the North Atlantic, they delivered 90,000 tons of freight and fuel to Britain every single day of those 2074 days. That's an amazing phenomenon. And and who at the end of the war, when all the veterans go back to civilian life with their veteran status and their benefits duly earned and education and land and health coverage. The only ones excluded were the merchant sailors, and 1300 of them had died. They didn't get veteran status until 1992.

MG: So there's a photo in the book of a man named Bob Ray. Not the same Bob Ray he served, but well, you could tell the story. I mean, he said he only wore his medals proudly after the government recognised the merchant sailors as.

TED BARRIS: Veterans, you know.

MG: And he kept them in a box.

TED BARRIS: Yeah. I never met Bob, but I met his son. He played hockey with his son. Steve told me one day we were sitting in a dressing room. You're working on that battle, The Atlantic Book. My dad was there and I said, What do you mean? And his dad had recorded some of his experiences. He was a radio operator on what were known as the Canadian part of the Canada Park ships. This was a private company that built the merchant ships and sailed the oceans, making revenue on the trips if they could complete them. Bob was a radio operator on about three different ships. He, if his ship was torpedoed, would have to be the last man off because he was in charge of all the secret codes. All the documents on board every ship were in his office, in the radio office, and if the ship was going down, he would have to take all those precious top secret documents, put them in a box full of holes, a big steel box, go to the edge of the ship, throw it overboard.

MG: To the bottom of the sea.

TED BARRIS: So that the Germans couldn't get them then. And only then could he go back to his radio desk, tap out an S.O.S. and get off the ship. Fortunately, he didn't have to do that, but at the end of the war, he asks the government if maybe he could get more training and radio, move his career ahead, maybe enhance his future back home on civvy street in Canada. And they refuse him. They say, no, you are already a radio operator. That's enough. You're not a veteran. He's not a veteran. And as you mentioned, he took the medals and threw them in a drawer. Finally, after many years of campaigning, going before Senate, doing hunger strikes, approaching the media, getting the Canadian public behind them, the merchant Navy sailors get the right to have veteran status and the benefits.

MG: This is in the nineties.

TED BARRIS: 50 years later. And Bob Ray was the first merchant Navy sailor on this day, November 11th, 1994, to place a wreath at the National Monument. The very first merchant sailor allowed to do that. And that's when the medals came out of the drawer, out of the box, and he wore them proudly. And his son, Steve, the man I know, wept.

MG: What was the resistance to recognising them, given the service and the key role that they played in what we've been talking about?

TED BARRIS: Well, technically, they were not military. They were hired as civilians to populate the ships doing all the trades, whether it was on a radio or stevedores or, you know, even officers commanding the ship. They were there at the behest of the company. And so technically, they were not controlled by the military. They were controlled by the military by virtue of their being within the escort control at sea. And most of the merchant ships were unarmed, so they weren't handling weapons, but they were not military. And so the government stuck to that rather thin and narrow interpretation of veterans service. And so they didn't get it until they fought for it.

MG: You mentioned secret codes. Can we talk about the Enigma machine? Love the Enigma machine. But I mean, he played a key role in all of this. Tell us a bit about for people who don't know what is it and. What role did it play in the battle?

TED BARRIS: It was a coding device. It looks like a typewriter. Remember those, with the keys on it? And then at the top of the typewriter had several wheels. The most prominent Enigma machine had three wheels. So you hit the letter T and it, depending on the setting of the three wheels, it might come out as a P or a W might come out as an exclamation point. The German alphabet is not dissimilar, but all of those letters transposed or changed, would change literally every time they reset the wheels, which meant that every time the Berlin was indicating a strategy, plans and data that had to be passed along to the very mocked or the Kriegsmarine or the Luftwaffe, it was encoded and then distributed. Well, it was up to the British, the allies, to try to figure out what those codes were and for the battle, the Atlantic, that was vital, because if they could determine where the U-boats were by virtue of those codes and directions and so on or where they were going, then they could steer the convoys around them. So it was desperately necessary that they break the codes. And I have access to that story, principally because 16, 17 years ago I met a woman named Nan Adair and you'd think, wait a minute, was she a brilliant scientist or mathematician? No. She was born in England, grew up in St Catherine's Ontario, got her Canadian accent there and Canadian culture, went back to Britain, tried to get into the army, in the Navy, in the Air Force, in Britain to serve our country. She's told one day, go up to Milton Keynes and do the interview that's available to you. There she goes up to this mansion called Bletchley Park and goes in. There's a guy behind the desk. His name is Alastair Denniston, and he says to her, We're looking for the cream of great minds. We call ourselves the family. And Poor Nan thinks, What have I got myself into? I've just got a high school education. He says, That's okay. We'll assess you. She says, What do I have to do? You're going to have to work shifts night and day. You're going to have to sign the Official Secrets Act, and we'll give you some time to think about it. And she says, that's nice. And Dennison says, you have five minutes. Well, she joins and she becomes one of 10,000 people, mostly women, working at Bletchley Park on the decoding of Enigma. And sometimes they were successful. And then the Germans made the three wheeled enigma in 1941-42 into a four wheeled Enigma.

MG: Start all over again.

TED BARRIS: That's right. So that what were the probabilities of translations of the codes in the millions of millions of potential options became $0.92 Centillion potential code options. And so it became even tougher for them to break the codes. But through a series of pinches where commandos, British commandos and I mean, the Hollywood makes it seem as if the Americans did all this, but British commandos kept using operations. This was essentially a service that was inspired by the two I see at Royal Navy Intelligence, a man by the name of Ian Fleming, who was the guy who designed all those pinches. My colleague David O'Keeffe has written about this in one day in August. It's a brilliant book and there's still a lot of controversy around it, but it's fascinating to realise how they finally won back access to the codes with getting the pinches in the we were an enigma, but listening to man talk about those days, those long shifts at night and when things calmed down, I pressed her. I said, Tell me more about the how and why and the what. How did all the machinery work? She said, Ted, I'm still governed by the Official Secrets Act.

MG: I can't tell you.

TED BARRIS: This is 2006. But she did tell me that on those cold nights when all these, you know, the cream of great minds, Alan Turing and all the rest of them were sitting around a table enjoying each other's company on a break. The conversation was like an education for you. You've got mathematicians and scientists, psychologists and political science experts all exchanging views. But she contributed something very important. She told me. I said what was actually said? Well, every once in a while I would get a package home from Canada of pure powdered milk. Chocolate. Oh, I sent to her to Bletchley.

MG: Worth its weight in gold.

TED BARRIS: They hadn't had that delicacy in a while. So they heat up the kettle and enjoy the the wonderful hot chocolate. And the conversation would continue and Nan and everybody would finish their their their cup of hot chocolate and, you know, put away their cups. Turing would take his wipe it clean, put a chain through the handle and lock it to a wall.

MG: At the end of the book, you talk about the price that these Merchant Navy men, largely men paid. And you say and there's a quote that comes over from somebody who's remembering our colleagues goodbye. It says, I have nothing but the greatest of admiration for my merchant navy men. They paid an awful price. When you write a book like this, what did you learn just finally about the awful price that they paid?

TED BARRIS: Well, that most of these men died alone in the middle of the Atlantic, merchant sailors. See, one of the things that was endemic in these attacks was- nobody stopped. The minute you stopped, you became a target for the U-boats. And so of 1300 merchant sailors, Canadians died at sea, alone in the dark, freezing to death or, you know, swallowing oil until they died or might be miraculously picked up and had the trauma of escaping that. And the thing that that Bob Ray said was that in spite of the number of times they might be torpedoed, these guys came back. They were bedraggled and nearly drowned and suffering from all of the elements that come from going through that experience. And they all went back to sea again or joined the Royal Canadian Navy. As one of them said, so that I could shoot back. So all these and I haven't even talked about the Air Force and we lost 750 Air Force crew trying to protect the convoys from the air and the Royal Canadian Corvette sabres, the Corvette sailors. We lost 2000 of them. Not not the most horrendous statistics ever. But remember that it was all about keeping Britain alive. And Richard Holmes, British military historian, said, first you win at sea and then you might get the chance to win on the land. That's what this was all about.

MG: As I said, one of the things that you have done over the course of this career is put a human face on war, and you do that spectacularly well in this book. Ted, pleasure as always.

TED BARRIS: Thank you. Thank you.

MG: Ted Barris. His new book is Battle of the Atlantic: Gauntlet to Victory. That's The Current for this Friday Remembrance Day cued up next on CBC Radio One. I'll be back along with Marcia Young with special coverage of Remembrance Day. You will hear the service from the National War Memorial in Ottawa. And more from our guest, the author and historian Ted Barris. That starts at 10:55 a.m. We'll leave you this morning with some music from the Second World War. This is Boardman Row and his orchestra and a tune called When the Lights Go On Again. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you later.

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Friday November 11, 2022 Full Transcript

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