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The Current Transcript for November 10, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

In Canada, we have an extraordinary diversity of people, but we also are fundamentally interconnected. And if some portion of the population are left out, then the country suffers.

MATT GALLOWAY: Reconciliation means many things to Jody Wilson-Raybould as the first Indigenous Minister of justice. It was a word that guided her time in government. It was also a point of frustration as she left elected office. In a new book, she explores what's needed to achieve true reconciliation. And in 30 minutes, Jody Wilson-Raybould is here to talk about why she's optimistic about the progress already made and why in the face of history, she still believes in Canada. Also this morning, your data taken hostage.

SOUNDCLIP

They threaten to publish their critical, sensitive, secret information if they don't pay the ransom.

MG: Ransomware is big business and one of the biggest players was right here in Canada. In an hour, an investigation from the Fifth Estate into a Canadian hacker, an FBI sting and how vulnerable your personal information really is. We start, though, with a rare disease, a breakthrough treatment, a new hope for an Ottawa family. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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How a first-of-its-kind treatment is helping an Ottawa toddler survive Pompe disease

Guests: Sobia Qureshi, Zahid Bashir, Dr. Pranesh Chakraborty

Ayla Bashir is 17 months old, a milestone that her parents weren't sure she would ever reach. Ayla has Pompe disease, a rare genetic condition that's often fatal before your first birthday. But in a medical first, I was treated in the womb for Pompe disease, giving her a chance at a longer and healthier life. That approach was developed at the University of California, San Francisco yesterday. The New England Journal of Medicine published its case study about Ayla. We'll speak with one of her doctors who made the treatment possible in just a moment. But first, Sobia Qureshi and Zahid Bashir are Ayla's parents there in Ottawa. Good morning to you both.

SOBIA QURESHI: Good morning.

ZAHID BASHIR: Renee.

MG: Sobia, how is Eila doing now? She's 17 months old.

SOBIA QURESHI: Well, she's healthy, happy. She's like any other little baby her age, getting into everything and keeping us on our toes.

MG: It sounds like you have a big smile on your face as you talk about her.

SOBIA QURESHI: Absolutely. And sorry, she's in the background.

MG: If we're going to talk about her, she wants to make her presence known. That's fantastic.

SOBIA QURESHI: Yes, she's asking for my headphones.

MG: Oh, that'll happen. What are the things that I mean, just while she's grabbing for your headphones, you said she's getting into all the things that a 17 month old would do. Tell us about what life is like with her.

SOBIA QURESHI: Getting into all the drawers. Everything is always out, in the kitchen, from the cabinets. We had to put locks on everywhere, climbing up and down the stairs, climbing onto sofas and chairs and trying to jump off of them, getting into her siblings toys and you know, anything that you would expect a little baby her age to do.

MG: Zahid, what does it mean for you to see Eilat acting like this? Like any little baby should be doing, given what she has been through already in her or her short life?

ZAHID BASHIR: You know, I think now that we're kind of reflecting on the fact that she's exceeded our expectations in terms of what we thought reality would be with the baby diagnosed with Pompe. And as she hits every milestone, you know, when she started crawling or walking or saying her first few words, etc., you look at it and you're like, okay, she's truly a miracle. But we're focussed on just the normal parenting of things aside from, you know, obviously everything she's been through, but mindful of what she will continue to kind of face from a treatment perspective to keep things going.

MG: For people who don't know about Pompe disease, what does that mean, Zahid, for a baby's development?

ZAHID BASHIR: Untreated, basically, you don't have much function in terms of being able to utilise your muscles, and that could be from like getting those physical markers that we look at as parents still holding up your back, crawling, walking, sitting up, laughing, talking to being able to do some of the other core functions that again, as humans sometimes we take for granted, which is eating, swallowing, breathing on their own heart functions. You know, so, so I think even just the fact that I was developing those muscle juices and maintaining the regular function of her body, that's a huge difference. And I think, you know, just from a treatment perspective, there are weekly infusions that kids have to go through and that Ayla as well will be going through. So that's kind of what parents with children with Pompe face in terms of outlook.

SOBIA QURESHI: And we were very fortunate that we were able to start treatment in utero when I was 24 weeks pregnant. Because of that, she has not had any symptoms of Pompe so far.

MG: That's amazing.

SOBIA QURESHI: Yes.

MG: And it's important you said in terms of Ayla, because this is your third child with this disease.

SOBIA QURESHI: Yes.

MG: Tell me about your other girls, if you wouldn't mind.

SOBIA QURESHI: Our first two, the older ones, she was born in 2011 and she was diagnosed when she was around six and a half, six, six and a half months. And she started treatment shortly after. But we knew before that I knew in my heart that something wasn't right. She wasn't reaching her milestones as a baby. And we tried treatment. We tried for a year and a half. We were very hopeful at the beginning that, you know, she might be able to retain some of her muscle movement, her arms, her legs, the ability to eat, the ability to be able to breathe on her own. That did not really happen. And she passed away when she was two years and five months old. And with our other one, we knew that we had Pompe in the family, all of our pregnancies after our first Pompe daughter, Zara, we've had in utero testing done. And with our second daughter, we also had her tested once we found out we were pregnant. And at that point we decided to go for palliative care because of our experience with our first one. And she was born in 2016 and passed away when she was eight months old.

MG: I'm sorry, this is such a difficult question, but it's important because it speaks to to who you are as parents. But having gone through something like that, something just so, so unimaginably difficult. Why was it important for you to try to have another baby?

ZAHID BASHIR: You know, we have two other children that are healthy, two, our son and our other daughter is five. And with everything in life, there are risks involved. And we thought about the possibility of having one more addition to the family. And in a way, I think it's making us whole. I guess you could say we had our son, that we had three daughters that we lost, and we had one daughter. And we thought we'd try one more time, understanding that there was considerable risks involved, but not knowing what that outcome could be. You know, I think family's kind of at the centre of it is at the centre of our lives. And we decided that we would take a chance.

MG: And so this was before you had learnt about the in utero treatment?

SOBIA QURESHI: Yes, it was. We did not know about the treatment until our first appointment with Dr. Pranesh after we found out that Ayla had some disease.

MG: Tell me about that. Tell me about that appointment and what that was like for you, learning from that doctor that there was this treatment.

SOBIA QURESHI: Like, we walked into the appointment hoping that, you know, we could start treatment soon after birth. As soon as she's born, she's going to start her treatment. And that was best case scenario for us at the time. During the appointment, Dr. Chakraborty already mentioned that he had come across in utero treatment and he said, I'll find out more about it. And it's it looked promising. It sounded amazing. You know, it gave us more hope. We were hoping there would be something new. Like it has been a few years since our daughters, you know, had received treatment and passed away. So we were really hoping that something had been done for a better treatment for Pompe disease, for infants. And it sounded amazing.

MG: I mean, hope is a word that gets overused sometimes, but it really does sound like in a conversation like this, that would be that kind of light that you might not have expected.

SOBIA QURESHI: Yes. Yes. I don't even know what to say. So...

MG: I know, it just it it must have it must it must have been overwhelming, right?

SOBIA QURESHI: It is. Finding out that there was an option out there that could be better than treatment at birth. So we had nothing but hope. We were very hopeful. We were.

MG: And what if you don't mind me asking, what does the treatment entail?

SOBIA QURESHI: So, yeah, in the beginning we all we knew was love would receive the treatment every two weeks, basically just a needle in the belly and it would go into the placenta and she would receive it directly. After that, we knew that soon after birth she would spend a few days in the queue so they could start the treatment regimen like right after birth because it also involves immune suppression. She was taken into the queue that day after she was born and she received her first immunosuppression treatment and IVIG. And then she received myosin, which is the enzyme replacement therapy that she receives every week. Now it's a weekly treatment, weekly infusion for her.

MG: And this treatment I had is able to be done here. I mean, this is a a a process, an approach that was developed, as I mentioned, in California at the University of California, San Francisco. But there was a whole team of people that managed to bring it to Ottawa. Right.

ZAHID BASHIR: And I think that's where like, you know, we talked about hope. This is where it goes into miracle territory. So we hear about this treatment after I was diagnosed at 24 weeks of the pregnancy. We're very interested. And the next thing we know, we're on a call from members of the medical community from various places. Right. UCSF, Duke University TO and Ottawa Hospital. We are on a call towards the end of 2020 talking about possibilities of getting the in utero treatment, but how that involved having to travel to the US, you know, still elbow deep in the pandemic and having to get the infusions there. And you know, we walked away from that call, I would say kind of sad because we realised that there was just too many hurdles to go to San Francisco, spend an unknown amount of time there. Health risks with the pandemic. Health Risks. Risks with the fact that there would be a baby who was heavily immunosuppressed, highly at risk for travel during that time. And we have our own family and children to take care of here at home. So we went back to our doctors here in Ottawa and said, look, we would love to be able to take part, but we cannot get past the logistical hurdles of, you know, everything that we were facing to kind of make it a reality in San Francisco. And it was through appointments that Silvia had with her doctor at the Ottawa Hospital [unintelligible]. She would hear that all were speak were still speaking with the people at UCSF where we're seeing if we can do something in Ottawa. Eventually I got called in to do some blood work and we talked with Dr. Chakraborty, and at that point it hit me that this somehow behind the scenes coordinating between countries and central hospitals and who knows what kind of protocols to make this treatment happen. You know, this whole experience has been a whirlwind, but that really is where we have been so fortunate. They truly made it happen when we thought it wouldn't happen.

MG: You used the word miracle a few times to describe this. Is that what it feels like?

ZAHID BASHIR: Yeah. We're talking with you about something that happens the first time in the world to happen, and we're talking about how that's completely changed. Ayla's reality is, as someone who has Pompe, it's a miracle. That's what's happened here, no doubt in my mind.

MG: Sobia, just finally I mean, you're 17 month old crawling all over you right now. When you look at her, what are your hopes for her?

SOBIA QURESHI: I hope that this treatment continues working the way it has until now. And I really hope that she has a happy and healthy and very fulfilling life and that Pompe does not become a barrier for her in any way.

MG: I'm really glad to talk to you both about this and to hear from Ayla as well in the background, who's certainly making sure that she's part of this conversation as well. Thank you all.

SOBIA QURESHI: Thank you so much.

ZAHID BASHIR: Thank you very.

MG: So Qureshi and Zahid Bashir are parents to Ayla, 17 month old with Pompe disease who was treated in the womb for that genetic disorder. One of the doctors who made that treatment possible for Ila is Dr. Pranesh Chakraborty. He's a paediatrician and metabolic geneticist at Chiyo, the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario in Ottawa. Dr. Chakraborty, good morning to you.

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You heard these parents talk about how they see the treatment that their daughter received as a miracle. When you hear that word, what goes through your mind?

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: Yeah, a lot goes through my mind that, you know, we certainly feel that the possible benefit of having started treatment as early as we did will put her in really good stead for best possible long term outcomes. Whether it's a miracle, I think will remain to be seen. And I must admit, I always feel a big sense of responsibility whenever we're caring for families like ours.

MG: When did this idea of using the enzyme replacement therapy in utero to treat pop disease, when did that come across your radar?

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: So looking back, one of the things that have been observed in a disease is that the earlier you start treatment, the better the outcomes are. You know, the damage being done in Pompe disease starts during [unintelliglbe]. But when I found out January 2021 that Sobia was pregnant and that the foetus was affected with Pompe disease, you know, first thing I did was go back to the literature and then also called up my colleagues [unintelliglbe] Prakash Nanny, someone I've known for a long time. And just as you know, what's new and what's not out in the literature yet. And, you know, she mentioned working with the group at UCSF, you know, looking at what would it take to start treatment when the damage is being done, which which is in foetal life. So we got into a lot of calls very quickly. And that week after that, the.

MG: Treatment could have been done south of the border. But as we heard, it was a huge deal for the family to have this close to home. Why was it important for you to to work as you did behind the scenes and out in front to make sure that this treatment could unfold in Ottawa?

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: You know, we were very keen for Sobia and her family to go down to UCSF and participate in the treatment there. It just became painfully obvious that it wasn't going to be possible and they asked if it would be possible here. And Dr. Fung keeping an eye chided and thought we might be able to do it here. The procedure for actually accessing the foetal blood and infusing treatment is something that's been done since the 1980s. So the procedure was something that she had a lot of experience with, and the treatment was also a standard treatment for a disease that it was giving it through that special procedure to access the foetal circulation. After a lot of discussion back and forth and a lot of discussions with the family. You know, we got to go ahead to go ahead and do that.

MG: You also talk to, though, about the responsibility that you feel as a physician. I mean, this is a family, as we just heard, that has been through a lot already. How did that impact, you know, that responsibility that you felt given what they had already gone through?

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: Yeah, I mean, I've walked a long road with this family. I feel like I know them very well. Their first daughter who was affected was born four days before my first daughter. And, you know, as my daughter was getting older and their daughter was not gaining any function and eventually passed away, it really hit home. You know, helping through their second daughter and her palliation and then. You know, as we heard from Sobiia and as I said, you know, with this pregnancy, this time, they really were keen to treat it as aggressively as possible and give Isla as best chance as possible that she could have. I wanted to, you know, help them along and provide them with the best options and at the same time, make sure that we were at no time providing any. I hate to use the word false hope. I don't know that hope is ever false, but to provide unrealistic hope. And, you know, we're very hopeful going into the future. But we will obviously monitor and keep a close eye on Isla and as new therapies commode heard of how I see it as is I really want to keep her as well as possible until those become available to do our best to make sure she becomes a candidate for therapies that may really give her the best chance. I'm 52 now. I'm hoping I pass on her care to someone else when I retire and you know that she can live a long and happy life.

MG: I mean, because she is coming into hospital every week to receive treatment, is that going to be at this point the kind of the roadmap for the rest of her life that she will need that treatment in hospital once a week?

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: Yeah. So the the infusions, it's possible to do them at home, but you do need to have a nurse and the availability of a home care to provide that infusion to home. Right now, that's not possible. And I think, you know, a lot of the health care system, staffing shortages are contributing to that. So for the foreseeable future, she'll be having it in hospital. That is the standard of care at this point. And that's what she's receiving is that weekly infusion of my isn't the same drug that she got in utero.

MG: What about for other families? You can imagine that there are other families perhaps who are listening to this thinking would it be possible for us to be able to access this treatment and access it here?

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: Yeah. And so, you know, I think for anything like this, it's important that there be a trial and there is a trial that's now underway. It's based in UCSF. And part of the reason we did want to have awareness of this is so that other families who are affected with their disease or with other lysosomal storage diseases, that's the name of the group of conditions that they're aware of that and, you know, can approach their physicians. They could approach me and we could have, you know, have the discussions as to whether they can participate. Ideally, we'd like to bring that trial to Canada and have a Canadian trial site so it can be done in a way that we're generating the evidence and the experience needed to help communicate and counsel families going into the future, too.

MG: What is it like being right at the cutting edge of this? I mean, you talked about the responsibility, but there must be also something exhilarating about being there and seeing the impacts of your work in the life of a family and a 17 month old girl.

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: Yeah, you know, you're right. You're absolutely right. There is an excitement and exhilaration. I like that word. But honestly, everything we did is very much grounded in the relationship with the family and the real desire to help them along the path that they chose with Zara. So their first daughter and the path we walked at that time and the path we walked with Sarah through the palliative care. You know, these are hard and difficult parts. And to me, this is a continuation of that same journey, hopefully with a much, much better outcome. But we wanted to do everything we could to help them, and that to me is the most exciting part of the work.

MG: It's a real pleasure to talk to you about the work that you're doing, Doctor. Thank you very much.

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: Okay. Thanks, Matt.

MG: Take care. Bye bye.

DR. PRANESH CHAKRABORTY: Bye.

MG: Dr. Pranesh Chakraborty is a paediatrician and metabolic geneticist at CHEO, the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario, and he's the co-lead of a new case study in the New England Journal of Medicine. That study is about Ottawa's Ayla Bashir, who in a medical first was treated for Pompe disease before she was born. Your CBC News is next. And then.

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Growing up and being taught and raised that I had a leadership role to take, kind of set me on my course. My life's work, which is my parent's life's work, is to advance indigenous rights.

MG: Rights, her life's work and the subject of her new book, Jody Wilson-Raybould, on why we all have a part to play in reconciliation. She's here in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current. Stay with us.

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Jody Wilson-Raybould on what’s needed to achieve true reconciliation

Guest: Jody Wislon-Raybould

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Imagine logging into your computer and a warning pops up on the screen. All your data, your email, your documents are being held hostage. In just under 30 minutes, CBC's The Fifth Estate follows the story of a Quebec man responsible for some of the biggest ransomware hacks in the last couple of years. But first, Jody Wilson-Raybould on the steps to true reconciliation.

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MG: My next guest made history as the first indigenous person to serve as Minister of Justice in this country, and she made headlines when she resigned from Federal Cabinet. Jody Wilson-Raybould wrote about that experience in her political memoir, Indian in the Cabinet, which was published last year. Her latest book is called True Reconciliation How to be a Force for Change. She is with me in studio. Jody Wilson-Raybould, good morning.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Good morning and thank you for having me.

MG: It's great to have you back on the programme. In the book you say a lot about reconciliation, but you also ask a question and the question is, do we need another book about reconciliation?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Yeah.

MG: Why did you write this book? And do we need another book about reconciliation?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Well, why did I write the book? First of all, it's to answer the question that I am so often asked in airports, around tables, walking on the street. It's people want to know what they can do to help advance reconciliation. And having been asked that so much and actually it's increasing the amount of times that I'm asked it, I think for for some obvious reasons, I thought that I one had and have a responsibility to impart some of the experiences and the teachings that I have been raised with to contribute to discussion about reconciliation based on the various roles that I've been fortunate enough to hold and the learnings that I gained from holding those roles. So do we need another book on reconciliation? I think it's fantastic that we have many books out there on reconciliation, particularly ones that are written by indigenous peoples that speak to their experiences, that speak to their families and their cultures. I think it's important for us to understand different experiences and worldviews.

MG: Let me ask you about your own family. You dedicate the book to your parents. You say they taught you to live in two worlds and to strive to help bring them together. How did they? That seems like almost an impossible task. And yet this is something that in many ways that you've thrown your life into. How did they show you how to do that?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: That's a great question. And trying to encapsulate what my parents have provided to me throughout my life is hard. And, you know, I am fortunate to come from a really loving family that taught me from a very early age to believe in myself and to know where I come from and to understand the laws of our culture in the big house. And my father is the hereditary chief of our clan, the Eagle Clan, and my mother is non-Indigenous. So I grew up with a lot of different perspective. Certainly my mother lives in our community and always wanted me to be able to explore different cultures and worldviews, but to immerse myself in being Kwakwaka'wakw. And I mean, I guess I was raised around political meetings. My father was and still is a pretty formidable leader in the indigenous worlds. And for me, growing up in that family and being taught and raised that I had a leadership role to take, kind of set me on my course where I've had the fortune of having opportunities present themselves. And my life's work, which is my parent's life's work, is to advance indigenous rights.

MG: What does that word mean to you? Reconciliation, again. And you talk about this in the book that it means many things to many different people. In some communities, it's a four letter word. Yeah. What does it mean to you?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Well, I guess reconciliation is a word that is used in many different ways. Four letter word or otherwise. And the meaning of reconciliation is challenging for many, because it seems that we can look to governments or politicians and they label everything as an act of reconciliation, which, you know, sometimes makes nothing about reconciliation. For me, I think about reconciliation in the sense of correcting injustices, about breaking down silos, whether they're seen or unseen that exist amongst us as individuals, and being able to appreciate and understand other people and their experiences and their realities and learn from them. And by understanding different people's worldviews, I think that's how we do break down those silos and we can act together to move towards different patterns of relationships, more positive patterns of relationships that have existed between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people.

MG: Why do you think it's a four letter word in some communities?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Well, I. I mean, I think it's, it's a reality of the ongoing colonial legacy I talk about in the book whether my grandma would ever use the word reconciliation. I don't think that she would. I mean, she existed and lived in a different time. But does one reconcile with one's oppressor? Reconciliation for many people, depending on where they're at in their healing journey or how they view governments. One doesn't do that. One doesn't look to build relationships necessarily with people that have oppressed them when we still have realities like the Indian Act in existence, for example. So there's different paths that people have and different perspectives in terms of how we advance and move forward with rights of indigenous peoples.

MG: But to your point, I mean, politicians will often apply this word for events.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Yeah.

MG: And you say that it's not an event in some ways, it's a practise that events can't be reconciliation, that you need to practise reconciliation.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Yeah, I know reconciliation is not a one time thing. I don't think there is a time when it happens and we can say, well, we've all reconciled.

MG: You had a little smile on your face, though, when I said that politicians will sometimes apply that word to it. I mean, what was going through your mind, as I said that?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Well, I think that when I think about reconciliation, when I think of what I call and what other people call performative reconciliation or symbolic reconciliation, we see that most evident amongst politicians where someone perhaps might think making truth and reconciliation a national holiday is reconciliation in action, wearing an orange t shirt, going to an event and giving a good speech. I mean, these are all important actions that people can take and they should be acknowledged for raising awareness and education purposes. But do they actually lift a child out of poverty? Do they actually reduce the socio economic challenges that exist in indigenous communities or recognise the rights of indigenous peoples and create the space for their nations to rebuild and become self-governing? All actions, reconciliation actions are not equal and we need to, I believe, be able to look at those actions and know the meaningful ones. The ones that move the agenda forward, that break down the silos are the ones that are challenging, are the ones that elevate the issues and are the ones where we act and know that there will be actions after action that changes the space.

MG: Just the last point on this, and it's something that I think a lot of Canadians still wonder this is about good intentions versus actions. And you raise the issue of, for example, clean drinking water. How does the fact that in 2022, they're communities that still need to boil their water, that can't drink what comes out of the tap? How does that speak to that? Again, we've been speaking around that idea that that this is a practise, that it's not about individual events, individual announcements.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Yeah. I mean, let me say it's appalling that we live in a country where communities don't have safe drinking water. I have experience even when I was in government, people wanting to buy a certain date, there's not going to be any boiled water advisories. That is an event which means reconciliation will have happened because everybody will have clean drinking water. But we're not going to solve the boiled water advisories in indigenous communities unless we address those day to day issues and invest money, certainly. But we also need to do the more transformative, the fundamental work of recognising indigenous people's rights, enabling their communities to rebuild their governing structures and be able to address the issues that are so important, like having safe drinking water from source to tap and being able as indigenous peoples to have control over that and to make the decisions that enable that clean drinking water to continue. I mean, we can alleviate boiled water advisories, but if you were to ask the federal government right now, however many they've alleviated, it's going to be a continuing cycle because it's not going to ever be resolved unless we address both of those tracks. The day to day issues and the reality of the denial of Indigenous people's rights, they need to be recognised.

MG: Part of this is going back to and it's the largest part in the book, the stories we tell and the stories we tell about ourselves. What's wrong with the story that we tell we broadly about Canada?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: It's an interesting question. And as you say, it did occupy a great deal of the book in terms of wanting to tell the story. I mean, I come from an oral tradition, an oral custom and Mary society. The challenge that we have in Canada is we have a story, a siloed, siloed stories. So the general story that we learn when we're younger is that we have a nation that was founded French in the English, when the so-called Fathers of Confederation came together and built Canada, divided up the powers. There's another story that's not taught necessarily or didn't used to be of the Fathers of Confederation coming together. And indigenous peoples were excluded from those discussions. They weren't involved. We weren't involved. And the story of of Canada from that point. And I think we live in a wonderful country. But the story of the exclusion of indigenous peoples from Confederation has had serious challenges over the decades since we became a country, and that is what we are trying to address and trying to enable indigenous peoples to finally see themselves in the mirror of our Constitution, which has been a challenge because subsequent federal governments, all federal governments, have denied the existence of Indigenous peoples and their rights in this country and actually saw it through residential school and other mechanisms to assimilate and colonised indigenous peoples.

MG: Why was it important for you to say, I think we live in a wonderful country? Because there are a lot of people in the re-examination of the story that we tell who are questioning even that sentiment, even that statement.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Yeah. I mean, I've always said and I know a lot of people, a lot of indigenous people don't agree with me. I am proud to be Canadian. I think that we live in a country that we have rights. We have great diversity. We're an unfolding story. And I think that we have great opportunity to improve. And why I think it's so important to look across the table and see somebody else for their stories or their lived realities and understand that we all have different world views and that those world views are important. And if some portion of the population in this case indigenous peoples are left out, then the country suffers. And so we need to figure out and understand that distinction and the diversity that exist and are interrelated and interconnected parts through recognising individuals rights, through achieving justice and more harmonious relationships, and developing a shared story of Canada versus one that's siloed can only improve the country. I've seen it across the country where indigenous communities have become self-governing and have improved quality of life and in their communities practically.

MG: What does that look like? Where have you seen that? In the country, particularly around issues of self-governance, which is fascinating when you see it work that has given you. Reason to think that this is a model that perhaps could change what the country is and how the country operates.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Well, there are approximately 25 self-governing nations, first nations in Canada. The rest of the first nations are still governed under that colonial racist statute called the Indian Act. But for those nations that are self-governing, whether that be through signing a comprehensive treaty with the government or a standalone self-government agreement, I have been able to increase their own sources of revenue, have been able to, of course, develop their own laws around their core institutions in terms of how they govern themselves, what their constitutions say, who their citizens are, how they elect their governing bodies. And by virtue of rebuilding, core institutions, enter into shared decision making arrangements with other governments. In British Columbia, for example, a community called the West Bank First Nation, who has been self-governing for many years. My husband works for them or with them. They have been able to reinvest significant amounts of their own source revenues into culture and into language and ensuring that we continue to foster their their culture and their language, which is so important. So its self-government is something many, if not most, first nations strive for. People are in varying stages of governance reform. But this is one of the things that I sought and fought so hard to do when I was in government was to create a mechanism for indigenous nations to move away from the Indian Act when they're ready, willing and able.

MG: And be more fully incorporated into confederation.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: To be more. To finally have that seat at the table that was denied so many years ago, to create.

MG: That seat at the table, which you have to open up the Constitution.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Well, I mean, it's been an ongoing question in you know, we've had Charlottetown, we had Meech Lake. I know if there was ever an opening up of the Constitution, there would be many more issues other than indigenous issues, self-government on the table, and rightfully so. But I believe and what has been asked for dating back to the Royal Commission in 1996 is for the federal government, who has primary jurisdiction over Indians and lands reserved for Indians to create a mechanism through legislation to enable indigenous governments when they've rebuilt their core institutions of government, to remove themselves from those sections of the Indian Act without having to ask the federal government, who now plays the gatekeeper role for permission. We can do that without constitutional amendment.

MG: Can you have reconciliation without that kind of big change?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Well, I think that we can have more first nations becoming self-governing. But it's going to take a long time, because right now you have to negotiate with other governments, sometimes interminably, or you have to go to court to prove that your rights exist or do not exist. Indigenous rights exist. True reconciliation will come. And this is one of the things I was so excited about. If I rewind seven years and become an MP and then minister is we will achieve transformative change in this country. And the leader that enables this to happen is when we stop denying the rights of indigenous peoples and create new patterns and relationships that recognise Indigenous people's rights and enable them to remove themselves from the Indian Act when they're ready. This is the rights recognition framework that so many Indigenous leaders, including myself, have been fighting for for so many years.

MG: There are a bunch of reasons to do that. One that's fascinating is that if you take a look at the census data, the indigenous population in this country is younger and growing faster than the general Canadian population. So what do you need to do? I mean, to make sure that that the conversation around reconciliation is commensurate with that growing population, that it matches the needs and desires and the wills of that growing population?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Well, that's the exciting part. Like I, I can say, and I'm certainly not young. I'm 51 now.

MG: Young is- I'm 52. So young is quotation marks.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Okay, okay. There we go. I mean, I think we're in a period of time. I don't think we're in a period of time that is transformative, that is a period of time of transition. And that can be confusing and it can be scary. But for me, I draw great optimism from young people in our communities, in our indigenous communities and beyond becoming more involved and moving beyond young people. It's Canadians are the ones that are driving and leading change and wanting to ask the questions, but also not just asking the questions, wanting to do things to advance reconciliation, true reconciliation or indigenous rights. And that's exciting. And I mean, I can think back to when I was regional chief first elected in 2009, I gave a speech and I talk about in the book about 50 years ago what has changed in 50 years. But I can safely say that from that point when I gave that speech to now, there has been more change and we need to acknowledge that that change has happened. Why has it happened? Because Canadians are becoming more aware, more educated, wanting to do and lead, you know, assist in changing the patterns of relationships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people as being inbetweeners as I like to, to call them, breaking down the silos that exist between and amongst us.

MG: Why is that important for you to stress? I mean, part of this is about the expectations of a younger generation and their timelines being different than maybe an older generation. And you say that that there is a real cynicism out there that people say to you, things will never change, nothing is changing, and that you you go out of your way to reject that. Why is that important to reject that and to say in the face of everything, whatever, you know, you can talk about what you've faced in your own life, that there are good things that are going on and that the pace of those good things is accelerating.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Yeah, well, I, I maybe it was the way I was raised. It's in, in my genes. I feel optimism even in the face of challenges. One of the things that I really wanted to impart in this book and you know, there are challenges like these issues are complex, but the work in order to change the status quo starts with each and every one of us in our daily lives doing something different, learning about other individuals and worldviews, and then taking action to change certain realities. That's where the change comes from. It's not the big events where politicians get up to a podium and say they're going to do something. Change happens because individuals take ownership over it and want to, you know, do something to act to change their realities.

MG: Real change is not the sole domain of leaders and so-called heroes. Yeah, it's a pretty loaded phrase, given you ran under the banner of real change, but also that you say that people are empowered to do this on their own. Absolutely. Is that what you tell people at the airport when they stop you in the coffee line and say, what can I do? How how do I advance reconciliation?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: I do. And I know I ran under a banner of real change, but I truly believe that real change is possible. And I did then. And I do now. It comes from individuals. I can't tell you how many people I meet that talk about something that they've done to change or to raise awareness in their high school and how excited they are about. About it. That's what motivates. You asked me why. I'm positive. That's what motivates me every day. Because I believe there are so many people that want to do the work of of true reconciliation, to be inbetweeners, to be true agents of change.

MG: Just before I let you go, you talked about being raised in some ways as a leader and being that responsibility that your family gave you. You served as regional chief. You served in the federal cabinet. What is your role now? I mean, you can operate from the outside. Is there any part of you that wishes you were back in there with hands on the levers of power where those decisions are made to try to to implement that change?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Yeah, it's a really good question. And I've spent a couple of books now actually reflecting on that question and where I can be of most service. I was raised to be of service. And, you know, I think back on the three or so years that I was in the position as Minister of Justice and the attorney general, and we were I was with a great team able to accomplish some pretty important things for the country, and I'm proud of that. I will say as a senior cabinet minister, one that was in charge of the legal framework of the country because of many reasons, partisanship in particular was unable to move on what I know to be the transformative work for indigenous peoples, which is to create a recognition of rights framework so indigenous peoples can be self-governing, wasn't able to do that. And, you know, I decided not to run again in federal politics and wanting to use my voice in other ways and engage with people in different ways. And I've had the fortune of doing that for almost a year now. And and writing this book and imparting my knowledge and experience and learnings, I hope is helpful for people. I hope it presents in a common sensical way, a pragmatic way, an accessible way that people take away from it, that they can do something. And you don't necessarily have to be the Minister of Justice or the Premier or the Prime Minister of a country to make change. But we all have it within us to do that. So you never know. Maybe politics is somewhere in my future again, but for right now I'm in the place where I'm supposed to be. And that is talking about these issues with people like you.

MG: I'm glad you're here. Thank you very much.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Thank you so much.

MG: Jody Wilson-Raybould is a former federal minister of justice and attorney general. Her new book is called True Reconciliation: How to be a Force for Change. Well, coming up after your regional update.

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They can't use their computers, printers, email. Sometimes the IP phones don't work. Nothing works. There's a total encryption of your system.

MG: We'll hear about a CBC investigation that traces ransomware attacks back to a government employee who is living in Gatineau, Quebec. The latest from The Fifth Estate coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

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The Fifth Estate’s investigation into a ransomware hacker

Guests: Marie-Maude Denis, Lina Dabit

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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VOICE 1: Hi. Your files are encrypted.

VOICE 2: We recommend that you move away from the computer and accept that you have been compromised.

VOICE 3: The only way to get your files back is to cooperate with us and get the Decryptor programme.

VOICE 4: Rebooting shutdown will cause you to lose files without the possibility of recovery and even God will not be able to help you. That's what we received that morning and we're like, Oh, this is a joke. Has got to be a joke.

MG: It was not a joke. It is, in fact, a tale with plenty of tentacles, one of which reached Gatineau, Quebec. It is a tale of one man who by day worked for the Canadian government as an I.T. specialist, but at night was a professional hacker working with one of the largest hacker groups in the world. He was extorting money from companies and individuals all over the world. A lot of money, it turns out. And this is the subject of the latest investigation by CBC's The Fifth Estate. Marie-Maude Denis is an investigative journalist with CBC Radio-Canada Enquete and the host of this fifth estate documentary. Marie-Maude, hello.

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Hi, Matt.

MG: Let's start with the beginning. How did the police come to investigate somebody who was working for the federal government?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: It all started by the FBI, and they started investigating a ransomware criminal organisation. It was in the fall of 2019 and this group is called Net Walker and some of the masterminds are believed to be based in and around Russia. So a few months later, pretty much when the COVID pandemic broke, many big companies and institutions in the United States reported to the FBI that they had been attacked. And since one of the victims was a telecommunications company based in Tampa, it's the Tampa office of the FBI that started to investigate all the U.S. attacks that were bearing the signature of Net Walker. And eventually the digital traces led to Sebastien Vachon-Desjardins. He was then 33 years old and a resident of Gatineau, Quebec, and at the time he was working as a night at Service and Procurement Canada in Ottawa. At least that was his official their day job.

MG: Tell us a bit more about him. Who was this guy?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Sebastien Vachon-Desjardins, a very average guy, you know, good family, good upbringing that that came back in in court when he was sentenced. The first thing that the RCMP must've learnt when they started investigating him in coordination with the FBI, is that he had a criminal record and not a small one because at the age of 28, so that was back in 2015. He was arrested by the Gatineau police with the value of half a million dollars worth of drugs in his house. And we found the detective in charge of that investigation, Gatineau, Leutnant Denis Simard, who told us how surprised he was at the time to arrest this young man who looked like such a good citizen, you know, worked at the federal government. And just the opposite of the cliche of the big gangster flashy drug dealer, he was kind of just living in a normal house, driving an average Toyota, working during the day and working out at the gym, going to bed early. So he was kind of the opposite of our cliche drug dealer.

MG: How did he end up having a job with the public service, given that history?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Well, that's a very good question that the government wouldn't clarify invoking privacy. So we do know this; Vachon-Desjardins day was sentenced to three and a half years in prison in the summer of 2015. That's quite a big sentence for a first offence. And he's already on parole around a year later and he's hired in October 2016 at service and procurement. And they told us, listen to this, that this started checking criminal records of their employees the next year in 2017. So what their answer implies is that they did find Sebastien Vachon-Desjardins a criminal record when he was hired a year earlier and he was home free. And it's even worse that because he was arrested again in early 2020, again by Leutnant Simard of the Gatineau police because he went back to his drug trafficking sideline again, large quantities. And since there's no automatic warning when you get arrested to your employer, Sebastien Vachon-Desjardins was able to keep his job at the government throughout 2020 until he was arrested in the big ransomware case a year later in 2021.

MG: So that's a side note. I mean, just to kind of give some information and colour to who this guy was, let's talk about his work as a hacker. How did he end up working in that world?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Well, we know he was recruited around March 2020 and Netwalker was very active on like hacking forums and advertising to computers, skilled that they could make a lot of money. And now Walker is what we call ransomware as a service. So there's the developers who create the malicious software, and it's kind of like a franchise. They sort of lease it to the affiliates, like Vachon-Desjardins, who carry out the attacks, and then they split the profits from the ransoms and typically is 80% for the affiliates like Vachon-Desjardins and 20% for the developers, the creators of the software.

MG: And just for people who aren't familiar with it. I mean, we talked and we heard a little bit of it at the top, but just define what ransomware is.

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Well, ransomware is the they infect a company or an institution computer with a malicious software that enables them to get to the sensitive data. And they kind of steal the information. They encrypt everything. So what happens for the victims is they can't use their computers, printers, email. Sometimes the IP phones don't work. Nothing works. There's like a total encryption of your system. And the victims receive a note saying you have to give us, let's say, $1,000,000 to get your data. And the double extortion is that they threaten to publish their critical, sensitive, secret information if they don't pay the ransom.

MG: And so people end up having to pay because they don't want their information spilt out onto the Internet.

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Yes. And there's a big reputation management issue. Most of the victims pay because they don't want to see the name of their company in the media and the public learning that they've been compromised.

MG: So Vachon-Desjardin, an IT specialist, ends up operating as a hacker for this organisation, Networker, what are some of the hacks that he was responsible for?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: All kinds of from big multinational companies to like medium businesses, small institutions just like very poor school boards in southern United States. One of his biggest attack in the U.S. was the University of California in San Francisco. And sadly, it was precisely the Health Institute that was at the time trying to to find a vaccine for COVID 19. So he extorted $1,000,000 from this university. And in Canada, there were many businesses and also post-secondary school institutions like Cegep, [unitelligible] in Quebec and ironically, College La Cite in Ottawa. And I say ironically, because that's where he studied and possibly learnt some of his computer skills and he extorted $300,000 from them, from the college La Cite in Ottawa.

MG: So that's a large amount of money. I mean, if you take a look at what he was earning, I mean, how much money was he bringing home from this?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: The figures are just stunning. He made about $30 million.

MG: Wow!

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: In one year and most of this was in bitcoins. But the RCMP did find a lot of money in his house, in his wardrobe, in his room, under his slippers. He kept $300,000 and they found some keys to some safety deposit boxes and to local banks and Gatineau where they found an additional $400,000. So it's, there's a lot of money to be to be made that way.

MG: He was stashing it in his slippers.

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Yeah. The mobsters put in their socks. It',s it's a new trend, I guess.

MG: What was the the break in this case for investigators? How did they start? Because we were talking about was happening in the United States with the FBI. How did they start to pin this on him?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Well, so Vachon-Desjardins left all kinds of digital traces during his attacks. He was very, very prolific, like he was making at least one attack a day. So he was very active. And the FBI put together all the digital traces, IP addresses, email addresses, and there were two, two servers in Poland. The police eventually got access to, one server in Bulgaria, which was the main server that Netwalker was using. And the VPNs, those those digital traces together and eventually found a location which was this average house in a middle class neighbourhood in Gatineau. But they needed the RCMP's help to really confirm, find out who was behind the computer and through multiple investigative steps, the RCMP was able to confirm that it was in fact Sebastien Vachon-Desjardins.

MG: And in that house, that's where he was.

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Yes. And at the time this is very interesting. The RCMP didn't did not know that there were Canadian victims. You know, they were they were acting to cooperate with the FBI. But it's when the they raided his house and started. Analysing everything that was in his computers that the found the Canadian victims and it's actually the police who reached out to the victims and not the opposite. So that's a very interesting aspect of this case.

MG: All right, Marie-Maude, stay with me because I want to bring the RCMP into our conversation. Inspector Lina Dabit is a cyber crime investigator and officer of the Federal Policing Cyber Crimes Investigative Team in Toronto. Inspector, hello to you.

LINA DABIT: Hello to you. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. I don't know if you want to speak specifically about this case or not, but when you hear about the scale of what was going on, what goes through your mind?

LINA DABIT: Well, I think it's important to remember that threat actors in general don't fit any defined parameters. So while I'm not surprised at the scale of it, I think we also have to keep in mind that there are other threat actors that operate on a much smaller scale who target differently, who have a different process for seeking victims. And I think it's important to not so much differentiate that this was a big threat actor because of the scale of it. You may have an act, a threat actor that's very prolific, but hitting multiple targets at a smaller level that is just as important.

MG: Who can just be operating out of a suburban home?

LINA DABIT: Could, absolutely. Could be. And this is the thing. There is no set definition. I mean, I know, you know, media historically, you're picturing a hacker in a hoodie, you know, pulled down and sitting over a computer sometimes in his mom's basement. But that isn't always the case. And I think it is very important to remember that there are there are so many reasons why a threat actor gets into why they are choosing to delve into this criminality. Is it just financially driven? Is it you know, you have state sponsored on one end. You have somebody who's doing it just to supplement, thinking, I'll just do a couple of small hits and nobody will know. A couple of small attacks and nobody will notice. And I think it is important to recognise that every single one of them poses a threat to the Canadian public.

MG: When you look at the scale of ransomware in this country, how prevalent is it? How prevalent is it that, you know, individuals or organisations have their networks seised and, you know, dangled in front of them that you have to pay up or else that that information is going to be spread online?

LINA DABIT: You know, unfortunately, I wish I could say that it is decreasing or stable. It isn't. Ransomware in general is increasing exponentially. It is a global threat. It evolves so quickly. It changes so quickly. It's very multifaceted. And as such, there is so much room to grow. And really, most cyber criminals aren't constrained by rules or global borders or anything, really. So it is on the rise. There was a very disturbing statistic out of the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre that estimated that only about 5% of victims are reporting, which is disturbing because that shows you the scope of it, because we are hearing so much about it. I mean, there isn't a day that goes by that there isn't another, you know, news release or information out in public that someone else has been hit. So you have to recognise that for those ones that are reporting 95% or not, we're not hearing about them.

MG: Why is that the case? Why is it that somebody would not, whether it's an individual or organisation, come forward?

LINA DABIT: That's an excellent question. There are so many different reasons and thank you to Marie-Maude for her sort of touching on it earlier. It is it is one of those crimes that operates in the shadows. And to be honest, these threat actors are hoping that it stays in the shadows. They're hoping that the the perception that there is shame or that they didn't do their diligence or they were careless with sensitive data. And all those things factor in to keep people from reporting. So, you know, we talk about things like reputational risk. You know, are you going to explain to your shareholders or your company or anyone who does business with your company that you were hit? Does that give that perception? And it's erroneous, but does that give the perception that you weren't careful with their sensitive data? And that's utterly untrue as well. You know, and I go back to you know, I go back to my old policing days when, you know, people would complain, wouldn't complain about, you know, let's say a bunch of cars are getting broken into one neighbourhood and nobody calls because, oh, they only took a few dollars or it was my fault I left a door open or they broke a window. It's not worth going through insurance. So what you find is nobody reports it. And if people aren't reporting it, the police don't know about. And if we don't know about it, we don't know what the emerging trends are. We don't know what is being targeted. Is it particular sectors? Is it particular companies? Is it... What is it? We don't have any of that information. And so so what happens? It festers and it grows. I do need to throw it out there to your listeners about the importance of reporting. If you are the one reporting you weren't living with this this wait of waiting for somebody else to to bring it out in public, you control the narrative. There is no shame in it. We aren't judging you. It happens. The only way, truthfully, the only way to absolutely stop cyber crime and being a victim of ransomware is to unplug everything and go back to paper and pencil. We can't do that. We don't live in that environment anymore. So it is critical that what we do is mitigate the risk. Do what we can to protect ourselves. But if you're the one that is out there and you have been hit, report it. Not reporting it, you may be funding criminality. You may be funding ideologically driven cyber crime. You may be. And the other thing that's important to remember is you don't. You don't. There's no guarantee that if you pay this ransom, that you're going to get your data back.

MG: Well, that's I was going to ask that as well. If somebody is attacked in this way and they have to, they feel as though they need to pay that ransom because they don't want their data exposed. They want to actually regain control of the data is it guaranteed that that will happen?

LINA DABIT: No, this isn't, this isn't a store. This isn't a trusted, you know, grocery store or shop that you go into regularly and you get a money back guarantee. It doesn't exist. There is a statistic that says over 50% of victims who pay a ransom either way, get their get their data published regardless or when they are given the the decryptor, it doesn't work. So you've now paid the ransom and your data is out there and or you can't access your data anymore. So there is no it doesn't come with a guarantee. And what happens is when you're paying these ransom, you're perpetuating it.

MG: And so aside from reporting it, what is it? Or, as you said, unplug the computers and go back to paper and pencil. What is it that people can do to protect themselves from these sorts of attacks?

LINA DABIT: So the most important thing to remember is and I'm and I used to be really bad for it, I will say coming into cyber, I've gotten a lot better about keeping up on my updates, what patches there are. What you have to remember is that cybercrime is a crime. It is to a certain extent a crime of opportunity, and it's the path of least resistance. I mean, I think we learnt that watching Sebastian, Russia and Jordan and, and other threat actors is if there's a company that's very well fortified that has, you know, all the patches are up to date, all the security is done, they have a robust security strategy in place. It's unlikely, unless there's something so valuable in there that they're going to hit it. Now, that's obviously there's there's things outside that, but for the most part, it's the path of least resistance. I don't want to say they're inherently lazy, but it's very it's it's almost like a it's almost like a smorgasbord out there that they're able to sort of get out there, look at what is what hasn't been patched, what company hasn't been patched. And I mean and again, I go back to Sebastien Vachon-Dejardins, where he was able to look in to some of these companies, which ones didn't have patches, what sort of you know, what was their income? What were they doing? What was the what sort of role did they have and would it be worthwhile target for him? And then he would you know, he would identify them. So there's so many things, but definitely your patches, making sure your security is up to date and, you know, in your home for four every day. I mean, I'm talking about companies that large. But even looking at your everyday citizens and especially, you know, some, like I mentioned my parents because they're not very technically savvy. But, you know, we make sure that their computer is always patched, that they have the latest security updates in because they very well as well to be a victim. And that would be awful because if you aren't as adept or agile in this environment, you will be more likely targeted and maybe not up to speed with your security .

MG: Marie-Maude, do we have any in through your investigation any sense as to why he was doing this, what motivated him to do this, aside from $30 million plus?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Well, the best information we have is from Luton and then his team of the Gatineau police who arrested him three times because I forgot to tell you that he was send on behalf of the U.S. government to read him the the warrant for the American charges. So he interrogated him twice for for the drug cases. And he said, I'm addicted to money. I can never get enough money. So he was plainly wanting more and more money.

MG: And so after the police investigation, there's the knock on the door at that home in Gatineau. What happens then?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Well, he was jailed during some of the RCMP investigation. And about nine months later, in November 2021, his lawyer called the RCMP saying he was willing to cooperate so we could, we obtain a part of his confession video he explains to the investigators Craig Elliott and [unintelligible] how he was targeting companies, how he was choosing his victims and how the attacks went down. So then after that, it was pretty obvious he was he was going to to plead guilty in Canada. So on the Canadian charges, he pleaded guilty. And received a seven year sentence. And he didn't fight against his extradition in the U.S. He was recently sentenced to 20 years by a Florida court of Florida federal courthouse judge in Tampa.

MG: There's an interesting comment by the judge who said, I would have given you life.

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Oh, yeah. He said, if you if you hadn't pleaded guilty, I would have given you life because you're a digital Jesse James.

MG: What about the people whose money he took? Do they get that money back?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Well, that's still undecided for now. A Brampton, Ontario judge decided that some victims in Canada will get some kind of restitution. And next January, there will be a hearing in Tampa, Florida, for the American victims. So some victims should get some kind of of restitution. But the judge really had to make a choice because there's not enough money to cover all the losses from the victims.

MG: What have you learnt in telling the story?

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: Well, that it's very it's you know, it seems like out there in the digital world, we don't feel that it's really near us. But I've met the victims and remember, this was happening in the middle of the COVID pandemic were institutions. Businesses were already overwhelmed with what they had to do to to stay in business or to keep offering services. What happens if they target a critical infrastructure? You know, think water treatment, hospital, hospitals. So it's it's not an easy answer when the victims are confronted with with that dilemma.

MG: This is quite a story, Marie-Maude, thank you very much.

MAREI-MAUDE DENIS: You're welcome.

MG: And Inspector Dabit, thank you.

LINA DABIT: You're welcome.

MG: RCMP inspector Lina Dabit Abbott is an officer with the Federal Policing Cybercrimes Investigative Team in Toronto. Marie-Maude Denis, an investigative journalist with CBC Radio-Canada, Enquete and the host of the fifth state documentary Hunting the Hacker of Gatineau airs tonight on the Fifth Estate 9:00 p.m., 9:30 in Newfoundland on CBC Television and CBC Gem. That is The Current for this Thursday. q's up next on CBC Radio One. The Canadian R&B artist RealestK on the programme. Here's news about another Canadian musician, Jan Grant. Singer songwriter from Halifax has announced that she is working on a new album. This album will feature 12 songs, all of them collaborations with other artists. This is the first single Jenn Grant's collaboration with fellow Halifax musician Kim Harris. It's a song called Judy. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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