Eps 6-06

Airing: Nov 22 2022

When Aaron Brown settles into the starter's blocks, he reminds himself that he is there to handle business. And when the world champion 4x100m relay runner says business, he means it.

A financial river flows through track and field, and he wants everyone, including the not so famous athletes, to get their fair share of the take.

Aaron Brown is not out to be a firebrand, but you never know what's going to happen when the gun goes off.

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It's player's own voice. I'm Anastasia Bucsis.

World champion Aaron Brown. My gosh, this past summer was wild. Team Canada beats the world. Beats the United States, in the United States. How has the reception been?

Aaron Brown: You know, it's pretty cool because for so many years, it's like we knew we had the potential. But for it to actually happen and say, 'wow, we actually did it', you know? and we're waiting for it to kind of sink in. And it hasn't fully, I don't think until probably the next time when we line up at the World Championships and they announce us like the defending champions and we're like, Oh yeah, we actually we are top dogs and they're chasing us. You know, it's pretty cool.

But, you know, we're the type of group and for me, especially, I'm the type of guy that doesn't like to rest on his laurels and smell the roses while he still has opportunities to, you know, get more roses. Right?

So the only the only thing to do theoretically when you win is to try and win again. So that's where our mindset is. And the ultimate one, the pinnacle, is winning that Olympic gold in the four by one. So we still have some work to do.

Anastasia:It was so exciting, though. You speak on behalf of so many athletes and you're so respected by your peers, you know, just taking a step back from the summer that you've had. You wrote an amazing piece for CBC talking about the devaluation of track and field athletes, how athletics should monetize their athletes more. What was the reception like with that article?

Aaron Brown: I feel like a lot of people want to say the things that I say, but they're afraid of the repercussions. A lot of the athletes were like: Thank you for saying something like, I felt like this. And I just either didn't know how to say it and articulate it or, you know, they just kind of in a way made me there like an ambassador in a way.

And that was never my intent is to become like this, you know, pioneer or anything It was really just try to highlight and spread awareness on what's going on because I, I am friends with a lot of these people, a lot of these athletes and a lot of people aren't aware of what we go through. Information is not available. And if you look at other sports, it's readily information that you can find on the Internet. And it's very easy, very simple, Google search, how a certain sport functions business wise and as a professional sport. And so if you spread awareness and let people know like, Hey, this is what's going on, this is what Duffy's deal with on a day to day basis, then conversations can be had about how we can improve it and how it can change. But people don't know. They don't know.

Anastasia:Yeah. You don't know what you don't know. What I love, like you said. Listen, the skills, the speed, you know, the dynamism of athletes that make millions in the NFL might have very comparable skill set to an Olympian that's, you know, working part time in the off season. So, yeah, I mean, when you think of track, the top eight guys, the guys, the women, you know, the folks that we see in the finals, they might be making a pretty penny, but the ninth lane athlete is perhaps just above the poverty line. What do we do with that information?

Aaron Brown: I think we have to realise that as athletes we have so much more power than we think. And if you convince the majority of the sport that make up the sport, that we actually have value beyond what they tell us. And if we come together to utilise that value and leverage the power that we have, we can in turn create an environment that's going to be more helpful for the next generation and beyond and ultimately help sustain the professional side of the sport.

Like if we just want to continue track and field as an Olympic sport, that's an amateur sport. Don't really receive any money, just kind of do it for the love of the sport and all the cliches that people are saying, then that's cool. But you know, we are operating as a professional sport. It's just not run very well. So if we're going to do the professional side and there are people making money, then why not do it right?

Why not emulate the other business models of other sports that do it properly as a professional sport and make it so that it's more effective? And in turn, everybody wins when you have a better functioning product.

Anastasia: What would the Gold Star be for you? Like when you talk about other sports.

Aaron Brown: You know, I'm not I'm going to be realistic. And I don't I don't think track and field will get to the point, at least in North America, where it's on par with like the NBA, the NFL, the NHL and the MLB. Those are long established sports that are hard to emulate because they just have been entrenched and it's such a massive product. But I do think that our sport can be on the same wave as, you know, a tennis and a golf, because those are sports that are also in the Olympics but have found a way to not have their pinnacle events their premiere event, like I tweeted the other day, be the Olympics.

If you take Tiger Woods, you know him because of the PGA Tour's that he's won. Like that's all the green jacket that he has is what makes him Tiger Woods. And if you take away the Olympics, he's still Tiger Woods. Serena Williams with all the grand slams she's won. That's why she's Serena Williams. It's not because the Olympics propped her up. So the Olympics is a fantastic vehicle in terms of spreading awareness for a sport and letting people know the protagonists in each sporting event. And it's a great event for it only happens every four years, etc., etc.. There's a lot of great things about the Olympics.

I don't want it to come across like I'm just like, get ready the Olympics. Because a lot of people took my tweet that way. What I was trying to say is that you can't have that be the sole thing that props you up. And then the rest of the time, your sport just goes into the background and fades into anonymity. How do you run a business that way where it's only relevant for, you know, the year leading up to it and the year where it happens and then it just goes back into the shadows? Right. If you have your premiere event where the most prestigious thing you can win your sports is something that belongs to your sport. I think that's pretty safe to say. That's a much more sustainable model than the one we currently have. And I think that's where our biggest issue is. So our Gold Star would be to get to a point where the Diamond League or the World Championships is as prestigious or more prestigious than winning an Olympic gold.

Anastasia:I think to NCAA when they monetised. And every athlete was like, hell, yeah. Like, it's about time. Do you get nervous about blowback from Olympic committees or international federations? Because that does take power out of a few folks hands.

Aaron Brown: I don't because I don't think what I'm saying is rebellious and burning the system down like I'm a revolutionist, you know? And so that's why I think take the motto and try and improve it. And if I did, for some reason, have the attention of the higher ups, and they wanted to say, hey, you know, we didn't like what you said here or whatever. If I said something that came across in a way that they took it in the wrong way, I would say, Oh, I apologise. I meant to say this and I would love to have that conversation.

And then I'd be like, okay, how can we both arrive at the same points? Because we both want the same thing, I would think, is for the product to improve because if track and field becomes more valuable, then those higher ups are also in overseeing something that's more valuable. And I think that's a win-win situation. So I would then redirect it to get to a point where we're all, you know, on the same path and looking to get the same thing, because I think ultimately that's what we want. And if they're in a position of power and they don't want to see their own product succeed, then why are they in those positions?

Anastasia: Mm hmm. So what, realistically, when you think of, collective bargaining agreement for Olympians, what does that look like?

Aaron Brown: I think it would be at least like a profit split where, you know, a certain percentage of the revenue that is made goes towards the people that organise it and the people that put this sport on or make it go, which is the athletes and the coaches and the federations. I think it needs to be a profit share so that we are both benefiting in an equal way.

If they want to argue that, you know, the reason why the the Olympics is such a valuable entity's, because they're able to secure the sponsors and stuff and they deserve more of the revenue share. That's a conversation that can be had, but there's no even negotiating because there's no other side to negotiate with right now. Right? It's just they dictate the terms and we deal with it.

And they use the old mantras of just chase your dream, your childhood dream of being Olympian. That should be good enough. But it's like, okay, so you can profit off my dream and you expect me to be just be good because I was able to go to the Olympics and tell that story and have that like, no, that's not good enough, right? If people are making money, then it should be distributed as such. Everybody that has a hand in making that money should see some of the profit. 10:15 in eps

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Anastasia:So for athletics specifically, this is a blunt question, but are we marketing the athletes correctly or how do we market athletics? Because a hammer thrower does a whole lot different thing than, you know, a sprinter.

Aaron Brown: I think the World Athletics does… they attempt to. And I've seen recently them ratchet up their efforts to at least market some of their stars, which is which is great. And I don't want to make it seem again like I'm just completely anti organisation and they're not doing anything and they're all useless. Like that's not the case.

Where I think they can improve is maybe having more segmentation, right? Like separating the events so that each one can get their time in the light. So maybe having more events versus just track, Just field. Maybe that's the solution. I'm not sure. Maybe it's regionalizing the events more so than just like a North American time and North American events, a European event, an African event, Asian event. And then we have one where we like combine, Maybe we could do like a Asia versus Africa. North America versus Europe have more events like that. So then it's like market versus market. And then when you regionalise it, then you can focus on what works in that region.

So maybe what is popular in Canada is different than what's popular in Italy. So you you market it differently. The presentation is different. The things that happen at the event are different because if you just have this one unified way of presenting the sport, when it's a global sport and everybody around the world consumes it differently and different things work in different regions, you're going to have problems where it's like, okay, this is doing really well here, which is the case. It does really well in Europe, but everywhere else it seems like, okay, it's just not as popular, it's not gaining as much traction.

We have so many different things we could try and it seems like we're just stuck in doing the same thing over and over and it's like, you know the expression… square peg in a round hole is that how it goes?.

Anastasia: Yeah, something like that. In so many countries, sports cultures are radically different from even their neighbours. So that is really fascinating. You know, prior to us connecting for this podcast, I said, What do you want to talk about? And you said, You know, I want to talk about monetization of course. And I'm also, you know, really a passionate advocate for mental health with athletes. Why is that so close to your heart?

Aaron Brown: I've had friends, you know, have strong challenges. One of them passed away because of mental health. And it's one of those things that is so stigmatised and it's so difficult to talk about because we don't know a lot about it as human beings, you know. But when you segment it into just sports, that's even more undiscovered and that goes back to even what we were talking about earlier in the monetization of the sport. You give up your life to chase your Olympic dream, right? And so that means for a four year cycle, you know, you're giving your all, you're training every day, you're going hard, going to training, you're eating right, you're sleeping right. You're spending all this money to make sure you take care of your body. And you know, you're trying to get the best for yourself to put yourself in the best position to finish.

Well, what if you go through all that and you don't make it because you get injured or you just have an off day at the trials and you don't qualify, how do you then deal with that as an athlete? A lot of these things that people go through are not are not mainstream. Like people just see, okay, this athlete trained for the event and he flopped. Okay, next. Who's the next one up? But what about that one athlete? Like their life doesn't just turn off. They still have to go back and deal with their day to day. And what if they, you know, took out loans or borrowed from friends and or did a fundraiser in order to raise enough money so that they can get the right equipment in order to make that team and then it didn't go their way. How do you deal with that?

And I feel like these are the things that go unnoticed. And nobody if people don't know what you're going through and you have no outlet and you're afraid to talk about it because you know, it's not popular, stigmatised, and whatever the case may be, then it's just internalized. And when it's internalized for a long enough time, that's when depression kicks in. That's when you know you're dealing with stuff bigger than what I even understand.

And I just want to at least use my platform to spread awareness of what athletes go through on day to day basis. Because there's been times where I've been down because, you know, what I've been working really hard for didn't come to fruition. And the reason why I'm able to come back and bounce back from it is because I talk about these things. I have people that I can go to and, you know, express my emotions and find the motivation to keep going and to get better and to get back up and get on my feet and try again and understand that this doesn't define me.

Because that's another thing too, is that like when we're so ingrained in our sport and going so hard, we just have tunnel vision and we essentially become our sport. But we have to understand that we are more than our sport. So if you're 12th place in the world, that is not who you are. You're more than that. And people might not hold value on who finished 12th because they only care about the medallists or the champions or who won. But you still are a person of value. Despite where you finish. So once you step off the field of play, you still have an entire life and still people care about you regardless of how you finish. Right?

And more people have to hear that because they think if they lose, then no one's going to care about them. No one's going to love them anymore. They only have this attention and people only care about their well-being because of what they can provide in the field of play. There's only three medallists, and beyond that, you know, there's going to be a whole bunch of people that are losing that are not winners in in that event and what happens to those people. Right?

So I just want to … even the winners, even the people that get there, sometimes they think, I'm going to give up everything before for glory. And once I get there, I'll find happiness. What happens if you're still unfulfilled. Now What? What do you do if you think it's going to solve all your problems? If you just win this gold and then you get there and it's like, okay, what's next? What else? This feels hollow. I need more. Because winning isn't what gives life meaning. It's not what gives you substance. It's much more than that. And I'm going really off the rails now. I'm kind of going deep and philosophical, but it's just I'm really passionate about this. If you can't tell.

Anastasia: No, and thank you. You know, as someone who has struggled with mental health and struggles, it is true. It's so easy, I think, for people in general to place their self-worth on what they do or if they come twelfth. It is a struggle. And yet you're totally right if you think that going to the Olympics are going to win an Olympic gold, not that I ever did that, is going to cure something inside of you. You're going to be, you know, rudely awakened. You were competing, of course, in Tokyo. So, Simone Biles, did you follow her story? What was your reaction to it during the games?

Aaron Brown: So that was interesting. She felt like she could put herself in harm's way if she did it. She went out there, compete because she had the …

Anastasia:The swirlies or the whirlies?. It's something like that. Yeah. It's when you're in the air, you. You get discombobulated and you can't tell where the floor is.

Aaron Brown: I'll be the first one to tell you that when I heard that, I was a little confused because I don't know how that doesn't happen more often. But yeah, she made a choice for her well-being. And of course she's going to get people who give flack and say, like, you know, suck it up and go out there and do it anyways. But I think it took a lot of bravery and a lot of courage to say, I'm not going to put my health at risk. This isn't everything to me in terms of, you know, my life beyond the sport. And she made a choice for her. And I understand that. And I have no ill will against that.

And if an athlete chooses that, you know, this is not for me at this moment, would you rather them go through it, get injured or fall short and fail? And then after the fact, say like, oh, well, I wasn't this. And then you're going to say, oh, it was just excuses. Like, why didn't you just pull out? Like, I think she did the the most honest thing is to open up why she wasn't able to compete and take herself out of it and let someone else compete like that. That seems logical to me.

Anastasia:I just couldn't believe all the people that were like, You're so selfish. What a bad sport. I could. I mean, you can't go on Twitter ever because people are just trolls. But it was it was so upsetting to see that side of humanity fought for me and my perspective. Naomi Osaka I also want to bring her up because I think she's raised a very, very interesting conversation about athletes and their relationship with the media. I work for the media now, so I have a number of different perspectives. But do you have any solutions as to, you know, what perhaps could help make that relationship with the media healthier? Because doing a press conference after you've lost it cannot be fun.

Aaron Brown: Yeah, see, that's a tricky one. Like, nobody wants to do the tough conversations when you just lost. So it might be a matter of having more athletes in the media because they will understand what it's like to be on the other side and might be more sensitive to what they're going through. And so they'll ask questions in a way that's easier for them to stomach, especially when it's in a heightened state, when it's just right after the event. There's always social media which an athlete can use to express themselves. So, you know, the things that come across in the press conference aren't exactly what you wanted to say. You can clarify and say it in your own way on social media. So at least we have that outlet to kind of clean things up. But it's a tough situation.

Losing on the big stage when everyone has so many expectations on you and falling short like you basically fail magnificently in front of everybody. And that's not easy to talk about when you just failed. If they ask a question that you're not ready for, maybe just pass. You know, I would love to answer your question, but I'm not in the space to answer that right now. Can we move on to the next topic or something like that? I don't have the answer for that one, honestly.

Anastasia:No, I don't know if I have the answer either, but I do think it's an evolving conversation. That's very interesting because the media, of course, has done a lot for sports. But yeah, we all now have a smartphone in our back pocket. So what does that look like going forward?

Aaron Brown: I don't want to just only present the athlete side. I know I'm an athlete. I'm going to advocate for the athletes. But understanding the business aspect of the sport, there is the other side and we have a sport of value because of the way it's marketed and because of the attention and the coverage that it gets. So the media's role in sports is definitely vital, and that is a big part of why it becomes a business entity...

Anastasia: I don't know, I don't have all the answers either.

Aaron Brown: Yeah. It's tough, It's tough

Anastasia:Bronze in Rio 2016, Silver Tokyo 2020, as I mentioned, off the top gold in Eugene, track down USA and it's fun to cover that. How much faster can you get?

Aaron Brown: I think we can get faster because the faster we get as individuals, which I don't think any of us are peaked, the faster we get as individuals and our speed, the better will be. And also our passes were really, really good. And we, you know, had our best handoffs so far as a unit, but they weren't perfect. And so there's still room for growth there as well.

And as we saw, passes could be the difference in winning the race and coming second or, you know, another finishing place. And that was the biggest difference between us and the U.S. is we had better passes. And if you're clean through the exchange zones and you have enough speed, you can pull off upsets. And it might not have been upsets in our minds because we always felt like we could win. But for the vast majority of people watching, it was an upset.

You saw us run our Canadian record, but we can do even better because we looked at our exchange zones and we still saw things where you can improve. And that's the beauty of our sport, is that there's always more you can do to get better. 23:04

Anastasia:For you personally, though, you are regarded as one of the most consistent athletes I talked to Sam Effah prior to Worlds and he's like, Man, you are so consistent. You always find yourself in the final. What do you attribute that consistency to?

Aaron Brown: Just holding myself to a certain standard and knowing that I'm out there for a reason. I belong there and I train to to compete at the highest level. So in order to give myself a chance to get to where I want to be and achieve my goals, I have to be in that final. So that is always the main goal initially.

And then once I get there, that's my next challenge is to figure out how to compete for medals. But I just attribute it to being professional. Approaching every meet like it's training in that I've rehearsed this over and over and over and over and over. I've suffered through training. I did all the hard workouts for a reason, so don't let those go to waste. And when I get on the line, it's time to handle business. So that's what I tell myself.

That's I don't get caught up in who's around me and who is in my races. And, you know, I don't doubt myself and feel like I don't belong and I can't compete. And once upon a time there was that self doubt in my mind earlier in my career. And I just had to make that shift and tell myself that no, like you belong here. You are just as good as anybody else. You can advance through these rounds and get into that final. 24:20s

Anastasia:What was the moment that you started making that shift? Because this can be tough to have. Self-belief 24 seven is hard.

Aaron Brown: I go back to 2017 when I step on the line in the prelims and got disqualified at the World Championships in London, one of my darkest moments turned into one of my, I guess, self empowering moments because I told myself, even though it's horrible what happened, you step on the line one time and you know, you no longer able to go on in the in the games, you still won year heat and I was something I hadn't done at the senior level to that point and I ran the second fastest time in my career at that point and I did it running easy. I felt like I had a lot more to give. I felt relaxed. I felt easy. I felt, you know, the most confident I had been at the championships.

And I'm like, okay, how can I extrapolate that and replicate it in every championship going forward? And ever since I got disqualified, then I've made every final that I've been to. So I used my lowest moment to kind of catapult me into another stratosphere, confidence wise. I think a lot of people can do that, but.

Motivation is one of the big things like when we fail, when we fall, it's easy to just erase it from your mind and focus on the good moments. But when you do that, you miss a huge opportunity to learn from what went wrong and what went right in that wrong moment. Right? So sometimes you're not a complete train wreck and not everything's wrong. But there's still good things you can take good nuggets to learn from. And if you do that over and over and over, eventually you're going to see a shift and you're going to start putting together those things, right? You can't just learn. You've got to actually execute.

Learn, reflect, execute. And that's been my key over and over every year I always look back, What did I do wrong? Why didn't I get it done? Why am I falling short? How can I improve? Okay, you know what's wrong? You know what you did wrong, how do I improve it? And I started in training and then I go from training over and over. Okay, I can do it in training. How do I do it in the race? Okay, I'm doing it in the race now. How do I do in the critical moments? And that's what leads to consistency, is continually evolving, working on yourself and getting to a point where you're a completely new athlete.

Anastasia:That can be exhausting, though. I mean, like, that's obviously a champion's mind, but a lot of people struggle to be that honest with themselves and to give them themselves that much feedback. So do you ever lose motivation even putting yourself in that mindset?

Aaron Brown: Yeah, of course. Of course. And when you when you go through the motions and do that, sometimes you still don't get it right. I've been doing that for myself to try and get an individual medal at the World Championships or Olympics. And I still haven't done it yet. So that gets frustrating. We all have emotions and I would be disingenuous if I said it. Sometimes it doesn't get hard and sometimes I don't even want to go through like more of myself and pick myself up. But the moment you decide not to, like forever, is the moment you're going to be stuck. But enough's enough. You got to pick yourself up at some point because everyone else is going to operate with a level of confidence. And if you can't compete with that same level of confidence, it's hard to compete at all.

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Anastasia:You're a married man.

Aaron Brown: I am.

Anastasia:Son Kingsley. 18 months. Does he know what you get up to? Does he know you're a big deal?

Aaron Brown: He doesn't know what I do. Sorry, he doesn't know my impact, I guess. But he knows that I'm a runner. My son doesn't watch TV yet. We're trying to hold out until he's two years old, at least. Hard thing to do for any parent looking to do it, but I've heard it's worth it or at least going to make the attempt. But we do allow him to watch track. So when I'm competing, my wife will let him watch and he will just look at the screen and say Dada!

So like, he knows one of those people on the screen that's running is me. And when they actually show me and they're like, zoom in, like, he actually knows it's me. But like, sometimes if you just it's a whole bunch of people running, he'll just think I'm in there somewhere. So he does know I run. I don't know to what extent, but at least there's that.

Anastasia:Do you see bright lights in his future?

Aaron Brown: So that's that's as funny because he has the most energy I've ever seen a human being ever have. He has a motor that just does not turn off. And he runs everywhere. He doesn't know how to walk. Like he's just full on running. And it's crazy because he's a little kid, right? He's 20 months. But you're standing there and you think, okay, I could take him out and take my eyes off him for just one second and I could just put this in my pocket. And all of a sudden he's way down there! And you're like, How did he get there so fast? It's just like I'm I'm a sprinter. So, like, I off obviously, like over I'm overconfident in my ability to, like, chase him down if he's ever in danger or whatever. But like, there's so many times where it's like, Oh my God, how do you get so far? Like, I actually have to, like, bolt out and go get him because he's just always running.

So yeah. But if I may, a huge motivation for me to want to speak out about changing the sport, is looking at my son. If he looks up and says, I want to be like Daddy, am I going to be like, Yeah, do track and field because it's such a great avenue for you to make a career in its current state? No, I'm going to be like, it's incredibly difficult. You're going to have to be one of the best in the world in order to actually earn a living. Just know that.

But I want it to be at least if you're talented enough and disciplined enough to get to that level, that there's a payoff, that it's worth it. We know if you sacrifice and you're talented enough and you're blessed enough to make the NHL, there's a certain salary you're going to make. And it's a pretty good one. Same with the NBA. Same with the NFL is trying the same.

Anastasia: You mentioned Kingsley and his future. Paris is, what, two years away? You still got a long runway ahead of you before you retire. But what do you want to get into after? Do you advocate for so many folks that like politics, media? What are you thinking?

Aaron Brown: I don't know about all of that. I mean, I don't ever close the door on anything. And it's funny you said politics. My major in college was actually political science. And at one point I wanted to go to law school. Probably won't do that now, but. I think about what I'm going to do after almost every day.

And I I've been starting setting myself up since I was 24, you know, because I didn't know how good I was going to be. You know, you have to have a tough conversation with yourself where it's like, okay, is this sustainable? Am I going to be able to support myself? I'm doing well right now, but at any moment I can get injured. I can have an off year. Things can happen. And I've seen it time and time again from the most talented athletes throughout the sport.

And so I've been setting myself up on the side to hopefully manifest and build up to a point where it's something that I can live off of by the time I'm done. And that's what I continue to do year in and year out. I know that's very political answer. I guess practising my politician by my political chops, by kind of avoiding the answer. But I will say, like, I do some business stuff on the side.

You know, I have some businesses that I operate in and in time I will shed more light on exactly what I'm doing. Some of it has to do with track, some of it's real estate stuff. But I definitely am putting stuff in motion to get to a point where I at least have an avenue to pursue when I'm done running track, whenever that day comes. And then it's a matter of, you know, just continuing to find my passions and seeing where things take me. You know, I'm not staying rigid in what I want to do. I'm kind of flowing with where my passions lie.

Anastasia:For what it's worth, I'd buy a house off you. Yeah. Even be my real estate agent anytime you could. Do you watch selling sunset? Oh, I binge that all the time.

Aaron Brown: I don't. My wife does.

Anastasia:That's how real estate is. I'll do that, too. Hey, I appreciate the chat, Aaron. Honestly, it's always a pleasure to see your face. And, yeah, I just can't wait to see what the future holds.

Aaron Brown: I appreciate it. Thanks for having me talking. And I think that's how we grow. The sport is letting people know who we are as athletes and human beings off the track, and that can be a way to grow our sport beyond just the product itself.

Anastasia: Beautiful. Peace.

Aaron Brown: peace and love.

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Anastasia: Aaron Kingsley Browne zoomed in from training in Florida. We recorded our chat in CBC Sports. Digital Studio.

Player's Own Voice podcast is available on CBC Listen and everywhere else you get your podcasts. This one is also on YouTube, on the Internet, as they say. Send your thoughts to #player's own voice. My handle is @anastasure on all things social.

Julia Whitman edited our audio this week. Adam Blinov wrote our theme music.

David Giddens is our producer.

Thanks for listening.