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The Current Transcript for October 7, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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With these out of sequence deaths, we really start to question at least I did my belief system and what my role was as a parent, how I could have maybe pre-empted some of this. And then I realised that maybe it wouldn't have made any difference.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thousands of Canadians have died in the toxic drugs crisis. Tara McGuire's son Holden was one of them. In the wake of his death, ABC journalist tried to learn more about who he was and what he was going through at the end of his life. The result is a remarkable book about addiction and family. Tara McGuire is here in 30 minutes. Also this morning, October baseball, the Toronto Blue Jays are back in the playoffs. Coming up, the Vancouver mom who hosted the Jays ace when he played there in the minor leagues. She'll be watching today's game closely and she's nervous. Plus, upwards of half of Canada is underlain by permafrost. Somewhere between 35 and 50% of Canada has permafrost. So if you just start thinking about that area warming and the potential contributions, we're talking about a big area. By definition, permafrost is ground that is permanently frozen. Now that ice is melting. In an hour, we revisit my conversation about what this will mean in Canada's North for infrastructure and for our fight against climate change. We begin, though, in Alberta and a new premier who has big plans for her province's place in this country. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Alberta’s future under new UCP leader Danielle Smith

Guests: Heather Scoffield, Carrie Tait, Kathleen Perry

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I'm back. Tonight marks the beginning of a new chapter in the Alberta story. It is time for Alberta to take its place as a senior partner in building a strong and unified Canada. No longer will Alberta ask permission from Ottawa to be prosperous and free. We will not have our voices silenced and censored. We will not be told what we must put in our bodies in order to work or to travel. We will not have our resources landlocked or energy, phased out of existence by virtue signalling. Prime ministers, Albertans, not Ottawa, will chart our own destiny on our own terms, and we will work with our fellow Canadians to build the most free and prosperous country on earth.

MG: Danielle Smith was chosen as the new leader of the United Conservative Party last night and is set to become the new premier of Alberta. The former head of the Wildrose party won on the sixth ballot. Jason Kenney announced in May that he would resign as party leader. And now Daniel Smith has seven months to lead the province before the next election. To talk about what lies ahead for Albertans and all Canadians, I'm joined by three journalists who had been watching this campaign closely. Kathleen Petty hosts the West of Centre Podcast and is executive producer of CBC News in Calgary. Carrie Tait reports for the Globe and Mail in its Calgary bureau. And Heather Scoffield is Ottawa bureau chief and economics columnist for The Toronto Star. Good morning, everyone.

KATHLEEN PETTY: Hey, good morning.

CARRIE TAIT: Hello.

MG: Good morning. Kathleen, you have met the incoming premier. You have followed her for many years. What is the appeal of Daniel Smith and the message that she is selling to not just her party, but to the province?

KATHLEEN PETTY: Well, let's start with her appeal to the membership as opposed to the appeal to the province, because that appeal has not yet been tested. And remember, this is, you know, as just a couple of percentage points of the population. So we'll see what her appeal is to the province, but certainly not to the membership. And there are a lot of new members. She grew the membership not to the extent that you have there, but certainly on a percentage basis and by an impressive amount. And there is a level of sort of frustration within the membership about Jason Kenney's and their view failure as standing up to Ottawa and defending Alberta. And and that's what she spoke to. You know, there was a lot of anger in there and the frustration that was felt leading up to Jason Kenney's leadership review. And it was demonstrated and capitalised upon during her campaign. And although she is, you know, adding a few new messages based on her speech last night, the core of her message is that, you know, as you heard, you played, I think, the most relevant part of her speech from last night. She's going to be a senior partner in this country. We will not be told what to do and we will be the masters of our own destiny. And that clearly that appeal. But again, the challenge is going to be, does that translate to the wider electorate?

MG: We'll come back to that in a moment. Carrie Tait, you heard at the beginning of that victory speech, I'm back. You described her in the paper this morning in some ways as a political outcast. Just briefly remind us of Danielle Smith's political journey to this point.

CARRIE TAIT: Well, Daniel Smith does have a long political history in Alberta. She's just never risen to the top. She started off with the Calgary school board and that ended when the minister at the time dissolved the board because it was dysfunctional. She then became a really rising star within what was then the Wildrose, the beginning of the Wildrose and the 2012 general election was hers to lose, and she lost it. That was when she would not condone a party may condemn a member of her party who spoke about people sexual orientation when he said that people who are gay are going to burn in a lake of fire. And she lost it on that weekend. After that, she's in the opposition. She crosses the floor, of course, to Jim Prentice with. Eight or nine of her fellow Wild Rosas, and that did not work it out. That actually was the beginning of the end for both the wild rose at the time, but more importantly, the progressive conservatives. People blame her for the end of that dynasty. And then and then she didn't win or her PC nomination. So it was misstep after misstep. And then this was a rocket to the top.

MG: What is that rocket to the top, Heather, mean for the rest of Canada? Because this is a story in Alberta, but obviously the rest of the country is paying attention to this as well.

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Yeah, we're paying attention because it's it's she's promising to destabilise, you know, the balance between federal provincial powers. You know, we know from history a have a long, long history of dealing with that that balance, that it's a slow ship to move. But she is promising to, you know, this whole campaign that they've just gone through, the leadership campaign, was really about redefining the relationship between Ottawa and Alberta. But of course, the repercussions on on federal provincial relations everywhere, it wrapped up in that. So, you know, the rest of the country is watching, going to be watching very carefully, you know, how forceful she is going to be able to to to, to be and how how quickly she can move on her her agenda to redefine that relationship and how the federal government and the federal liberals will react and be be able to to grapple with that. So it's inherently destabilising for not just right for Ottawa, Alberta, but, you know, for for for for the broader federal provincial relations and for all of the policy that's wrapped up in that, you know, there's just so many shared files back and forth. You know, will this bring a rethink about how how the two governments, the two levels of government interact?

MG: Well, and part of this is is her signature platform and what people have been calling, you know, the first thing that she would try to implement when she becomes premier. This is the Sovereignty Act. Carrie, just briefly describe what the Sovereignty Act is and what impact it might actually have.

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Right now, we're still not entirely sure what the Sovereignty Act is because it is just an idea and it does feel like she's pulled back from it even from the beginning. But at its core, the idea is that it would be a piece of legislation that would allow Alberta politicians to. Ignore federal laws that the government, the provincial government, believes infringe on its jurisdiction. So that's where the constitutional debate comes up, whether or not it would even be possible. We don't know how aggressive her final wording of the legislation will be.

MG: Kathleen, you said in some ways that Jason Kenney's downfall was his failure, the belief of his failure to stand up to Ottawa. What is at its heart? What is Daniel Smith trying to do with the Sovereignty Act?

KATHLEEN PETTY: Well, I would start by saying and I think most people acknowledge this. I'm not sure Jason Kenny does, but most observers acknowledge that Jason Kenney provided the kindling and then lit the fuse and then Daniel Smith fanned the flames. And now we're all going to find out who gets burned in the process. Because essentially, and especially with the climate policy in particular, I think that that's one area for sure that animates a lot of people, particularly those in the UCP base, the feeling that the federal government is out to shut down the primary source of income for this province in the primary industry. And although early in the campaign she suggested we could beat the 2050 targets of net zero and C really start talking about it fairly early on because she sort of got attacked by all sides. So, you know, I know we're probably going to talk about pivots at some point because that seems to be what we always talk about politics after leadership reviews. But she sort of even pivoted in the campaign. She stopped talking about that. And even last night, she was just saying, you're not going to land our resources. And she went on to say that we can, you know, achieve our targets and keep producing fossil fuels. So that I do think that is something that does animate her base. But just the overall sense that Alberta, you know, she talked about being a senior partner. So in other words, what she's saying is we're treated like the junior partner and you're going to start paying attention to us. And anyone who paid attention to this leadership race knows that the comparison she most often makes is with Quebec. Now, a lot of constitutional constitutional scholars would certainly argue with that comparison because they don't think it's an apples and apples, but that's certainly the frame that she's put it in. And obviously, it hit home with a lot of.

MG: Does it open. She said this last night in her victory speech that this is not about the idea of separating from Canada, but does it open that conversation at all, do you think, Kathleen?

KATHLEEN PETTY: I'm not sure that it does. I mean, the we do have an Independence Party or two provincially. And and I think most of their support actually will end up going to Daniel Smith. So I guess in the sense of Newt's that and then you could argue, well, if they're going to hurt, then surely they think that that's what she's after. But I think she would argue and she's used the phrase, as has Scott Moe. And of course, we know Quebec has for a long time that Alberta is a nation within a nation. And she even referred to, you know, we're going to be the most free and prosperous country. Last night, which I found interesting as opposed to province, I don't know if that was intentional or not, but it certainly my ears perked up when I heard that. I think she would argue, and she did to an extent last night, that, you know, strong provinces are what make Canada great. And what she's talking about is all the provinces I said sort of join forces and strategize and sort of assert their constitutional rights. And that's all that she's arguing for here, that the federal government continually tries to dictate what provinces do within their own jurisdictions. So, you know, therein lies the debate that I suspect as long as she is premier of this province is going to be one. You know, whether Justin Trudeau wants to try and ignore it or not, I think it's going to be a debate that the whole country is going to be engaged in.

MG: Her predecessor has not held back in criticising the Sovereignty Act. Here's what Jason Kenney had to say about it.

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The so-called Sovereignty Act would effectively take us to the brink of separation from the Canadian Federation, would shred the rule of law and would do devastating damage to jobs, the economy and the prospect of pipelines. This is a cockamamie idea. If you think we've had economic challenges in the past, wait'll you see a landlocked Alberta that has no use of the federal power to get inter-provincial infrastructure like pipelines built a cockamamie idea.

MG: Heather Schofield, what's at stake for Alberta economically if an act like this isn't just spoken about but moves forward?

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Just to go back to my earlier point about about destabilising. It sends a destabilising signal right away to investors and, and markets at a time when we've got, you know, the country writ large is is on the hunt for more investment. And at a time when Alberta in particular is is really trying to focus the economy there and the oil and gas sector in particular is really trying to focus on how to transition to clean energy and and needs a lot of money and a lot of it, you know, a lot of participation from people around the world in order to make that happen. So immediately, she's sending a signal that she wants to change the rules. And and, you know, for, you know, the point has been made that, okay, oil and gas and the energy and the energy sector in particular is used to navigating bumpy politics and going through lots and lots of procedures and and and and having to, you know, pass lots of tests in order to get anything done so that they can perhaps take this in stride. But she's sending a signal that this is you know, she's in this fight for the long haul. And so, you know, she's a populist leader. And that kind of rides on this perpetual disruption in order to stay in power. And that doesn't work that well for investors. And, you know, this time in particular, when we've got a rocky economy and a country, frankly, that needs oil and gas to be steady and and contributing to the to the broader wealth, it's not that helpful. So, you know, the warnings from from Jason Kenney about about, you know, causing economic harm. They're they're they're being hurt.

MG: Kathleen, how reflective of is what she is saying when it comes to the pitch that she made during the leadership campaign? How reflective is that of the province today and will she, to use the word that you've already hinted at, will she need to pivot to try to move towards the centre if she wants to win over the broader electorate in an election that is coming up just months from now?

KATHLEEN PETTY: You know, it's interesting that because as I was listening to her speech last night, obviously she started with the kind of language we've heard throughout the campaign. And but later on in the speech, she tried to figure out a way to connect that to things that she actually didn't talk much about during the campaign, the cost of living. Right, which is what the whole country is talking about, and then blaming the liberals a.k.a Pierre positive for inflation because the country was flooded with money. So that has been his argument. And this NDP Liberal Coalition is the language that she likes to use. And she talked about the carbon tax and and that they are the party of low taxes, low debt, and then went on to talk about health care and that the system is broken and we need to be able to act with compassion and helping the vulnerable. And I think a lot of people would suggest that she's now trying to speak to the broader population, you know, because we're essentially in an election campaign. Right. I mean, she she needs to have someone step aside so she can run in a by election and then and then get the pieces in place. And she has a lot to do in a short period of time to go to the polls on May 29. So you could you could hear a bit of a pivot. There are some people argue she didn't give it at all because her language is so strong off the top. But I certainly heard that. So I think now the the trick is to argue that sort of asserting her rights. So that we can sort of chartering course will allow us to do all these other things and address all these other problems that we have in common with all Canadians and presumably something that Albertans obviously then have in common with each other. So it's going to be interesting to watch to see how she navigates that. And just picking up on what Heather was saying. I mean, I've talked to people in the business community and, you know, let me tell you and Heather alluded to this, they want certainty, right? They don't they can't work in an environment where things sort of keep changing and the ground shifting is not ideal for them. So and surely she's been told that or she hasn't been, she's going to be. And so I we listen sort of very closely to how her language might change, because regardless of who's in power, the business community, the oil and gas sector need certainty. They can't function without it.

MG: Carrie What do you think her biggest challenge is going to be with the clock ticking polls? You know, the election again in May and the NDP suggests to be ahead in the polls right now.

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: I think her biggest challenge is going to be to take the Sovereignty Act to the broader electorate in Alberta and explain how it's possible that it will be good for Alberta. But B.C. in particular couldn't take the exact same concept and block pipelines. That is the entire idea that the province would have the power to block federal laws that it believes infringe on its jurisdiction. And so if Alberta can do something, why can't other provinces? And she has not explained why this would be good for Alberta, but also would shield us from anyone else, you know, inflicting harm upon the province, using the exact same mechanism that has to be explained. And it's just a gap in the logic. And the electorate, the broader electorate needs to hear an answer.

MG: We're just about out of time. Heather, do you see an ally for Daniel Smith in the new leader of the federal Conservative Party, Pierre Poilievre?

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: I see I see some parallels there, but I wouldn't say that they're completely allied. I mean, pure play of wants to be the prime minister of Canada and and and and Danielle Smith is putting herself out there as being completely anti Trudeau for sure, but also anti-federal government. So there's a there's a basis there for for for going heading in different directions. And, you know, Pierre Poilievre, his caucus is not necessarily supportive of Danielle Smith, too. He has some leeway to, you know, to not agree with her. You know, they have a lot of the same language. And clearly, Daniel Smith picked up quite a few of the themes last night in her speech that Pierre Paul. Yes. Has that's made him so popular. So they, you know, the fishing from the same pond, but they don't have the same the same basic interest there. So I don't expect them to be out there hand in hand. But, you know, Pierre Poilievre was one of the first out of the gate last night to congratulate her. And so clearly they do have have some commonalities there that that will mean some that they hope to rip off each other's strengths.

MG: Alberta is watching, obviously, the rest of the country, too. It's great to speak with all of you this morning about this and we'll chat again. Thank you very much.

KATHLEEN PETTY: Thanks, Matt.

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Thanks.

CARRIE TAIT: Thank you.

MG: Kathleen Petty, host west of Centre, the podcast that comes out of Alberta for CBC. She's also executive producer of CBC Calgary. Carrie Tait reports for the Globe and Mail in its Calgary bureau, Heather Scoffield, Ottawa bureau chief and economics columnist for The Toronto Star. You're CBC News is up next.

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Speaker 1: And then it affects so many people. I mean, in my own circle, I don't know a hundred people who knew and loved Holden and know and love us and who whose lives have been affected.

MG: One life lost to toxic drugs can affect hundreds of other lives. For Tara McGuire, the death of her son Holden sent her on a journey of discovery, and her new book chronicles grief and honours Holden and others touched by the drug crisis that we are living through now. She's here with us in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Tara McGuire on losing her son Holden to the toxic drugs crisis

Guest: Tara McGuire

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come this afternoon, Canada's Major League Baseball team starts its playoff run. We will hear from a Blue Jays fan who considers herself a second mother to one of the team's stars. Plus, we head to the Yukon, where residents there are feeling the melting of Canada's permafrost under their feet. But first, recovery after losing a child to drugs.

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MG: In 2015, Tara McGuire's son died from a toxic mix of heroin and alcohol. Holden was 21 years old, and as Tara struggled to come to grips with his death, she also began writing a book about it.

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TARA MCGUIRE: I felt internal and external resistance to writing publicly about Holden. The idea of breaching his privacy was extremely uncomfortable. He had long before asked me to stop talking about him on the radio. But he wasn't here, and I felt strongly that his story was an important one to tell. As a compromise, I built parameters. I would try to portray only the parts of Holden's life that connected with mine or some motive witness. I had no idea how to do this. Perhaps it would have been easier to forget about him altogether, like soldiers did with the horrors they had witnessed in war. Never mention it. Put it down. Pretend it didn't happen. As a way to survive. Turn sullen and grey. Cry alone. But that was impossible. Holden's shadow clouded my every waking moment. And some of the non-working ones, too. His voice spoke inside my head. He would not let me stop.

MG: Tara McGuire is a writer who lives in Vancouver. Her book is called Holden After and Before. Love Letter for a Son Lost to Overdose. Tara, good morning.

TARA MCGUIRE: Morning, Matt.

MG: I'm sorry for what you have been through.

TARA MCGUIRE: Thank you. I appreciate that. It's been rough.

MG: Can you tell me about your son?

TARA MCGUIRE: Oh. Holden is such a great guy. I think of him primarily as an artist. Really into graffiti and music, but just really an artistic person. The way he approached his life. Really funny, very intelligent, warm. Kind of a jerk at times. And just really, really great guy to be around. I miss him.

MG: You tell a great story in the book about going to New York City with him.

TARA MCGUIRE: Yeah. Yeah. We went for a trip when Holden was turning 16 and we went to a bunch of art galleries and all over the place and wanted to see, you know, a lot of the street art. And we just had a blast. We went all over the city, we had a great time and he put his mark on the city.

MG: When you when you think about him now, what is it that comes to mind?

TARA MCGUIRE: I think of his voice. I hear his voice. He had a beautiful, deep voice. I think of his laughter. I think of what it felt like to hug him. I think what a great brother he would be to his sister, Lila, you know, if he was around there. He's ten years older than her, but she's 19 now. And I think about what their relationship might be like. I think about having dinner with him. You know, I think about his friends now that are getting married and having children and and what he's missing. And yeah, I think about him a lot.

MG: What was it like being his mom?

TARA MCGUIRE: It was frustrating at times. It was extraordinary at times. He challenged me a lot as a teenager, but I think a lot of that was just based in his own intelligence and his own thoughts about the world and how we live and our systems in our society. It was my great privilege to be his mom.

MG: One of those challenges was in his teens when he started to use drugs he was trying for. It was marijuana. Yeah. How did you learn about that?

TARA MCGUIRE: Oh, I could just tell you was high. I've smoked my fair share, Matt, as a teen as well. You know, all of his friends were smoking pot. It was just kind of a normal thing in B.C.. People smoke pot. I mean, maybe not everybody, but a lot of people smoke pot, let's put it that way. I didn't like it and I would get upset with him. And, you know, I would find pot in his room and take his stuff and find his little pipes and whatever. I didn't like it at all. I felt like I had seen a lot of wasted potential. You know, people in my experience who smoked a lot of pot just didn't do as much. And they just kind of sat around playing video games. And I didn't want that to be his life because I felt like he had a lot to offer.

MG: And so what did you do about that?

TARA MCGUIRE: You know, I tried to hide and I tried to tell him all the cautionary tales. So I'm you're so unprepared as a parent for when these things come up. I read I read books. You know, here in Vancouver, the Downtown Eastside is a very unpleasant place. I took him for a drive through there to show him what can happen when you get into kind of the world of drugs. And his response was always like, oh, you're so dramatic. You're so overreacting. Don't worry about it. I got this, mom. Like, it's normal. Everybody smokes pot.

MG: As you said, his parents were so unprepared for these challenges. Like, you can read those books. You could, but it's it's real life. And when you look back now at that, what goes through your mind?

TARA MCGUIRE: Yeah. Reading the books and it's very academic. And then when a human being that you love presents in front of you, it's very complex and they oppose you. I probably should have asked Holden why he was smoking pot so much, and then it became more alcohol all the time. You know why? Why do you feel the need to do this all the time? It's so hard to say retroactively, really. You know what difference is I could have made? I remember being in high school and how drunk everybody would get and it's like, how much of this is just normal and how much of it is possibly dangerous?

MG: When did it escalate in terms of drug use into being something more serious?

TARA MCGUIRE: That's a good question. I really don't know. I think after high school, a Holden went to the Emily Carr School. It was wasn't a university at at that time. It was the school of Art and design. And I think he just sort of got into the just the weed smoking culture, I think became part of his identity in a way. But I'm really not sure when he started using more serious drugs. I don't think it was actually for that long a period of time, maybe a couple of years at the end of his life, probably using quite a bit of cocaine as well, a lot of people do at parties and that kind of thing. And then eventually, I think the last year of his life with heroin.

MG: What was your relationship like with him then as it was escalating.

TARA MCGUIRE: In that year? It wasn't good. I was a broadcaster here in Vancouver and I was let go of my position, as has been happening quite a bit in private radio. And so my husband and daughter decided to go on quite a long trip so I wasn't even here. We ended up travelling for about ten months and so my communication with him was limited to email. This was in 2014, so face time, that kind of thing didn't exist. So we would Skype weekly, we tried to, we would email, we couldn't even really text because he didn't have an operational phone.

MG: And as you say, I mean, the trip is laid out in detail, but also part of this is the process of writing a book like this. You write a lot of of what ifs and wonder what would have happened if this had perhaps had been different, if you had a different job and weren't, you know, up early in the morning, going off to to be on the radio, if he hadn't been a child of divorce, if you hadn't been travelling in the last year, why was it important for you to tease out those what ifs? Because that's that's really painful to do. But it's it it sounds like it's part of a process.

TARA MCGUIRE: I think the wondering what if is a very common part of a grieving process and to question all of those intersections that could possibly have been different. I think anybody who's lost someone in what's called an out of sequence death, you know, like our parents should die before us if everything goes well. But with these out of sequence deaths, we really start to question at least I did my belief system and what my role was as a parent, how I could have maybe pre-empted some of this. And then I realised that maybe it wouldn't have made any difference. Maybe if I was here the same thing would have happened. He was an independent adult, living his own life and making his own decisions, and I honestly don't know what impact I would have had, but I, I felt I needed to explore all of those possibilities just in order to process them all for myself. And I think because that's such a common experience, perhaps other people could relate.

MG: As you say, you had real resistance, internal and external to writing public. The about him. Why did you want to write his book?

TARA MCGUIRE: I'm not sure. I just couldn't stop myself from doing it. That's what I have always done. And so I think in times of distress, I tend to write things down. And so I it never it didn't start out initially as a book. I started writing a few poems and then just journaling and then some essays. And then I wanted to learn more about becoming a literary writer. I was always a writer in journalism, but it's a different form. So I learnt as much as I could about it and just started gathering more and more, I guess, chapters. I didn't really know what they were and I and then looking back now I can see those were building blocks and then I realised, oh, I think this might be a book, but it took various forms along the way. I don't know that I'm better off for it actually. Matt, or worse. I'm not telling anybody how to grieve, but for me, the process included just exploring every possibility of what might have happened. And I really wanted to try and see the world from his point of view as much as I could. And that's why I spoke to his friends and tried to go to the places that he'd gone and listened to his music and just I don't know, I just, in a weird way, tried to inhabit what his experience might have been like as a way to help myself understand it.

MG: What do you think you were looking for in that?

TARA MCGUIRE: I don't know. Maybe forgiveness, maybe understanding, compassion. Hopefully I have forgiven. Hold on. I hope that he is forgiving me, you know, for the mistakes that we made along the way.

MG: You went to a psychic?

TARA MCGUIRE: Yeah. Yeah. And I did a lot of weird things.

MG: I'm not saying that it's weird, but tell me why. Tell me why you went to the psychic.

TARA MCGUIRE: Well, because I. I was having dreams with Holden in them, and they were so vivid and they felt so real that I thought, you know, maybe there's some skills that I don't have. Like, maybe somebody could help me actually talk to him. Whether it's legit or not, she said in his voice. Apparently, it's okay. Like I made my own choices and you can stop worrying about me now. And actually I did after that.

MG: And that was in that process, as you said, of looking for some sort of forgiveness.

TARA MCGUIRE: Yeah. Grief makes you do weird things. And I didn't feel that they were weird at the time. But now, looking back and knowing that people are reading about it, I think. Okay. It's such a painful experience. My response to it was to investigate any possible angle of connecting with Holden. Even if it might seem weird.

MG: The way that this book is written is is incredible. Well, how would you describe it? I mean, it's memoir, but it's also fiction.

TARA MCGUIRE: Yeah, I call it a hybrid form. I initially wrote the book as a fiction book from Holden's point of view, and I got some advice from other people who said it wasn't really landing properly. And then I realised that I had some things to say too. So I included memoir sections, then lead to a kind of a piece of evidence, whether that's a photograph or a conversation I had with somebody, or maybe a text message from Holden's phone and from those tangible pieces. I jump into fiction and try and imagine what Holden's life may have been like in a fictional way.

MG: But again, there are there are specific things. You mentioned text messages from his phone that was returned to you after he died. And then there are moments in which you are trying to imagine and this is really painful, but this is where the book starts. You're trying to imagine what was going through his mind at the end of his life.

TARA MCGUIRE: Yeah. What is it like to die? Holden was such an intelligent person, and he would think about concepts like that, and he was great to have conversations with because he was so unconventional. I thought, you know, physically about his death and and what that experience might have been like for him. Then I really wondered, what was it like for him? Like what does it feel like to die and what thoughts come over you and what sensations? So that is one of the first sort of fictional parts of the book. Who knows what it feels like to die? But I. I imagined it from his point of view.

MG: What was that like to write?

TARA MCGUIRE: Oh, it was agony. It was it was one of the last pieces that I wrote in the book. It was difficult. I knew that I had to do it because. I wanted to imagine all of Holden's experiences and I think that we don't spend a lot of time thinking about death and what it feels like. We think about how afraid we are that it might happen to us or to someone that we love. But the actual experience of dying, I hadn't really thought about that much. And one thing that it's done is it's allowed me to not be afraid of dying at all.

MG: He had a huge circle of friends.

TARA MCGUIRE: Yeah.

MG: And they come up in this book. Two of them are Ariel and Sebastian. And I want to play you something. This is how they remember your son holding.

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ARIEL: Holden was a good friend of mine since high school and we just went on amazing adventures, painting graffiti and being ridiculous at times. But he holds a very special place in my heart.

SEBASTIAN: Holden was my friend for many, many years. I mean, we grew up together doing graffiti and having some of the best times of our lives.

ARIEL: Right before he went to Montreal, me and Holden spent like three days together, just drinking and spray painting around Vancouver. One time we were drunk and being silly and the cops actually stopped us. And with my bag full of paint, we convinced them that we were just artists and that I work in spray paint and they let us go. They dumped out our beer, but they let us walk. We just picked up more and continued spray painting and it as fun.

SEBASTIAN: So I'd been living with Holden closer to the end of his journey, and it started to become very clear that he was unsettled. His habits and behaviours started to become a little bit more self-destructive. He started looking for fights, he started to withdraw and graffiti helped us as we would paint and we would leave messages on the walls. But at the time, it wasn't something that we were able to like, help with. And I do believe that he is now. His consciousness is in a comfortable place.

ARIEL: It was hard to know that he was struggling because I was struggling with addiction at the same time. And. Sometimes I wish here I knew that he was in the same place as me. So maybe we can help each other. About a year after he passed away. I got sober and I've been sober ever since. And being close to tear up this way is helps me stay close to him and helps me in my recovery. And it's to people who say that you should just stop doing drugs. It's just not that simple. You have to have people who are willing to be supportive and show you love when nobody else has. And there has to be this weird, magical timing where you actually listen to them. Because I know Tara showed Holden an incredible amount of love and support, and she tried to help him, but. For me. I couldn't listen to my parents. I think it just did not connect until somebody else who like was in addiction was like, hey, you know, normal people don't use drugs. There is another way you should try recovery. And for some strange reason, I listened.

MG: Tara, what's it like for you to hear the way that his friends talk about about him, but also about you and the love that you showed your son?

TARA MCGUIRE: It's tough. It's nice to I think I've tried to maintain relationships with Holden's friends and I hope they consider me to be their friends too. I've tried to support them as much as I could and in their work and their lives. And Ariel is doing phenomenally well. She's just so smart and bright and artistic. And Sebastian, too, like they have artistic projects, but they have, I think, really improved their relationships with their families, too. And that's important to me. They honoured him by telling me things that I didn't know about him and what he was doing. And I want them all to know that they all did the best they could. And Holden was a very strong personality and he wasn't about to listen to anybody, so they shouldn't feel badly about it at all. I'm just really I'm really grateful for their friendship because he knew that he was loved by his family and he knew that he was loved by his friends. And I think that's really important.

MG: This is a book about your son. It's also a book about addiction. And as a journalist, you mean you did some hard work in trying to understand addiction? What did you learn?

TARA MCGUIRE: I learnt a lot, Matt. I learnt that people use drugs for a variety of different reasons that often it starts off as fun. You know, for younger people sometimes it's to feel better. Most of the time it's to feel better in some way that people who use drugs are suffering. Everyone is experiencing a lot of pain, especially in our world, is a rough place for young people. I mean, we never had to worry about climate and this polarisation of politics and and a lot of the violence and things that exists in the world. At least I wasn't aware of it as a young person. And so I think the world is hard. And to check out for a while, it's understandable to me. And so I look now with way more compassionate people who use substances and some of them do end up with substance use disorder. And what happens? I used to really reject people who were struggling, and now I find I'm kind of drawn to people who are struggling.

MG: What do you mean you rejected them?

TARA MCGUIRE: I was just super judgy. I was just like, oh, that was horrible. People are, you know, like other people. Like, I didn't feel a connexion to people with substance use disorders because I didn't think it could ever apply to me. And now it absolutely applies to me. And this opioid crisis is everyone's problem. I don't have the exact stats, but it's something over 30,000 overdose deaths that have happened since they've been keeping track. And that doesn't count this year. And there's already thousands more. And I just used to think that that was a stat or a news story or something that I didn't really have to pay attention to. But it affects so many people. I mean, in my own circle, I don't know a hundred people who knew and loved Holden and know and love us and who whose lives have been affected in a negative way, who are maybe less productive? I'm certainly less productive. It's just not something that is other people's problem. It's everybody's problem. And we just don't pay enough attention because people who with substance use disorder are probably the last remaining vestige of people we don't pay attention to.

MG: You went to a supervised consumption site, the Overdose Prevention Society. What did you see there?

TARA MCGUIRE: I saw people using drugs in a way that was safe for them, that that wouldn't kill them. And I think that is is an essential service in Vancouver. We cannot stop people from using drugs when we want them to. We don't know what their reasons and motivations are. We don't know what their history, their multi-generational trauma might be. And we that's not ours to say. But if people can find a safe place to do what they're doing and possibly in those places, also access some level of care, you know, that's when those changes can happen. And I learnt I learnt that the people who are there that are using substances are just the same as you and me. They're just people who are trying to make it through the day. And I felt that sort of I guess it's entitlement, whatever it is, I felt that fall away.

MG: What about that weird, magical timing that Ariel talked about, that there's this window that is, you know, kind of fuzzy that has to exist to get through to somebody who might be using drugs to speak to them in a way that they may be receptive to, to what you're saying.

TARA MCGUIRE: I have learnt that we do not have enough mental health supports in place to help people when they need it. Substance use disorder is is very slippery and when a person puts up their hand and says, That's enough for me, I'm out of here, I have I need help right now. That's the moment where they need to be able to access services and those services need to be available. I tried to help a few people in my inner circle and we reached blocks, things like, Well, you have to be clean for two weeks before you can come to rehab. I mean, that's just impossible. What we need is for when someone says, I'm struggling, I need help, I'm willing to try to get into recovery. We need to be able to say to them, okay, come this way, we will help you right now.

MG: And so what would you want? I mean, this is a deeply personal book, and it must be incredibly difficult not just to write, but to talk about over and over and over again. But people will take something from this write.

TARA MCGUIRE: Anybody who knows someone that struggling with substance use disorder or other types of mental health difficulties, it's terrifying. And you feel very alone. It's too late for Holden, obviously, but maybe other people who are struggling will feel more capable of coming forward. So they're not alone in their struggle.

MG: How do you hold on to his memory now?

TARA MCGUIRE: I listen to his music. I have lots of photographs of him. I still smell him sometimes, which is weird. Like in the sheets, in the towels. Pretty soon his sister is going to be older than he ever was. So things like that are hard. Like he's frozen in time. But I have some images and memories of Holden that are not associated with any kind of photograph. And I keep those for myself and I hold them very closely. We had some amazing times together and Holden was a great son and his life was way too short. But that doesn't mean it wasn't valuable to me.

MG: Tara, thanks so much. Thank you. Take care of yourself.

TARA MCGUIRE: You too.

MG: Tara McGuire's book is called Holden: After and Before Love Letter for a Son Lost to Overdose. Well, coming up after your regional update, the Blue Jays are back in the postseason and for one fan is a chance to cheer on someone that she considers family. Plus, Canada's permafrost is melting. What does this mean for the communities who live on top of that permafrost? We'll find out. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Back in 90 seconds.

Back To Top »

Nerves and excitement ahead of Toronto Blue Jays playoff opener; and the implications of the rapidly melting permafrost

Guest: Usha Tkachyk

MG: Hello again, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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He passes by and he strikes San Francisco by here. He has struck a swinging strike as winner has struck out the first two here in the third inning. Yeah. Came right back went upstairs. That spot has been good for him and strikes at Man Choi.

MG: That's Sportsnet's Buck Martinez describing a baseball player at the top of his game. Toronto Blue Jays pitcher Alek Manoah has been the ace of the team this year. No surprise then he's the man they picked to start this afternoon's wild card game against the Seattle Mariners at the Rogers Centre. Or, as some of us still like to call it, the Skydome. Usha Tkachyk will be watching Manoah start this afternoon with nerves and pride. She was Manoah's host mom. He lived with her in 2019 when he pitched for the Jays minor league team, the Vancouver Canadians. Usha, good morning.

USHA TKACHYK: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm okay, but how are you feeling as the game gets set to roll?

USHA TKACHYK: Well, I've already got it ready to be taped from on my PVR and I'm excited to watch because I know I will miss part of it, but because of the excitement, I'll miss it. So I will always tape it so that I can always go back and watch it become very excited, very nervous.

MG: Because of the excitement. You'll miss part of the game because you'll be hearing too loud.

USHA TKACHYK: Exactly, exactly. So I generally tape it so that if I do miss that, I can always go back and watch it.

MG: Good idea. Tell me this is a great story. How did you end up being the host family for a young baseball player who turned out to be a real star?

USHA TKACHYK: I started hosting players back in 2000, when minor leagues first started here. In 2000 there was an ad in the newspaper and they were looking for housing families close to the stadium. And I'm a five minute walk to the stadium. My son also plays baseball just right across the stadium. He played Little League and he used to always go to the stadium and watch the games. But then when I saw the ad in the paper and I recently in April of 2000, I became a single mom. And it was a great way for me to take my children to the game because I had four seasons tickets every year. And it was just another way for me to take my kids to the game and not have to worry about being financially strained. And it was the best thing I've ever done for my children. My daughter worked there, my son worked there. I even worked at work, you know, up until this year or even after I retired. So it's been it's been an amazing experience I've had. Alek Manoah was the very last player that stayed with me because now the players are staying at UBC. So it's been an incredible, incredible experience for me personally and for my family.

MG: What was he like when he when he was living in your house? What was he like?

USHA TKACHYK: He was very much like, my son is a gentle giant. He's a big guy. My son was very similar to him, not as big, but a big teddy bear demeanour. I mean, it's just the sweetest person. His hugs were very much like my son, so it was just and my son recently passed away and before Alec Manoah stayed with me. So it was just an incredible experience for me to relive those hugs, which I missed so much. And yeah, he was he was such a family oriented person. And I think his soul connected to mine. And it was it was the best experience. He was the sweetest person I've had. I've had many players stay with me. But I mean, he was just a very easy to connect with. And we would sit at the kitchen table and talk and and the way he talked about his mom. I was sold. I mean, he was just very easy to talk.

MG: Because he grew up with a single mom as well. Right.

USHA TKACHYK: Exactly. And I think that was another reason that I was very connected to him, because the way he just talked about his mom, his eyes just lit up. You can tell that he's just a genuine soul. And that's I think what really gets me is is how real he was and he still is. I mean, what he's done for his character when he defended him, stuff like that is just who he is. I mean, I've only known him for a short time when he stayed with me in the summer. But you get to know a person very quickly when they open up their soul.

MG: Did you have you stayed in touch with him? I mean, have you spoken to him? The Jays are now, you know, into the wild card and looking to the future, the playoffs. Have you managed to keep in touch with him?

USHA TKACHYK: Absolutely. I messaged him on Friday, a week ago when they were playing and when they clinched the playoff spot. And I, like I said, congratulations to him. Great pitching. And I had some fun celebrations and here's to the playoffs. And then he responded obviously the next day because it was too busy celebrating Friday. And he says, thank you so much. And now the fun begins. So he was he's very excited but is obviously. So am I.

MG: So you're all set up with the PVR. Do you have a ritual? Is there something special about how you'll watch this game? Are you going to be at home or are you going to go out somewhere? What's going on?

USHA TKACHYK: No, I'm going to stay at home because I think when you go out, I mean, I can go to the local bar, but it's like it's 1:00 in the afternoon, it's noisy. They can't really watch it and I just prefer to watch it at home. Just because I'm here with my daughter. I will watch it. And yeah, it's just going to be nice, you know? I'm really excited. One of my biggest I think one of the things I've always wanted to do is bucket list, I guess you can call it, is to go to a World Series game. I, I hoping, you know, I know it's high, but you've got to aim higher, right. To make it. So one of those days when Alec is pitching in the World Series, that will be my bucket list and hopefully is going to come true. So I am it's a start. This is game one. So we'll see how far we go. And I'm cheering him all the way. Well, you.

MG: You you also have a line in on those tickets, right? I mean, I'm not saying that he's going to cough up the tickets, but you do have, you know, the direct line to a star pitcher who might be able to help you out.

USHA TKACHYK: Actually, I was very I mean, the photographer for the team, for the Canadiens team, he reached out to me in August of this year and he says, hey, are you still keeping in touch with Alec? And I says, Yes, I am. He said, You know, my wife and I are going to be celebrating. I thought now that another bursary in New York, do you think you'd be able to get tickets for Alec and his playing days? So I reached out to him and he reached back to me within a couple of hours. Absolutely. I think got him tickets. So I know and I, I don't like to use people, but I know that if I ever need to, I would be able to get tickets from him. I mean, I would have gone to Seattle. My daughter used to live in Toronto up until April of this year. If my daughter was still living there, I would absolutely have gone there. But my daughter's in Vancouver now, and anyways, I would definitely go, you know, the World Series is not that far away.

MG: Sounds like a great guy. In addition to being a fantastic pitcher, enjoy the game. I mean, you'll be pacing around and hopefully yelling at the television as well and cheering. Lucia, thank you very much.

USHA TKACHYK: Thank you.

MG: Usha Tkachyk is a Blue Jays fan and a big Alek Mahoah fan. She was in Vancouver.

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[Song]

MG: Afternoon baseball. Nothing quite like it. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

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Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. As you can see, word of the gold rush has spread far and wide. We're happy you made a successful trek over the Chilkoot trail to join us here today.

MG: Three times a night, a diamond tooth gurdies in Dawson City, Yukon. There's a vaudeville show just like you might have seen back in the gold rush days of the late 1800s. There's diamond tooth gurdy, tinkling piano and cancan dancers.

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Now, without further ado, please welcome to the stage the gold rush, girls.

MG: The Klondike is no stranger to dramatic changes in landscape, and now parts of the land itself are melting away.

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So I'm celebrating my 40th season in town, and I can tell you about a lot of the changes that I saw.

MG: Sue Taylor is leading more than a dozen tourists through town. She looks like she was plucked from the gold rush herself.

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SUE: Okay, everybody ready for action? All right. We'll just see how the traffic is.

MG: Her long skirt brushes along the wooden boardwalks and unpaved streets of Dawson City and along feathers trailing out of her purple hat.

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SUE: Well, folks, I just want to point out this building to you. Is there any fans of Mr. Roberts service here? This is the bank that he worked in. He was brought to Dawson City to work at this bank here.

MG: That bank is original and in disrepair. Other buildings are replicas like the Red Feather Saloon.

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SUE: You can sit back there, you can take a chair. I'm pretty sure there's a place for everyone.

MG: It's perfectly recreated. The wallpaper, chandelier and long, shiny wooden bar take you back in time. But there is one thing that's quite different.

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SUE: And is lifted up off the ground. See, that's what we have to do here now, because the crazy fools who came up for the stampede just built a sawmill with the bar in it and just put out the board feet and they built the whole town without any thought of permanence or permafrost. And turns out we got both.

MG: Down the dirt road a little way, Sue stops outside of a busy bar known as The Pit.

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SUE: You can go in here at 9 a.m. every day, Christmas Day, Election Day.

MG: This building is original and it sits at an awkward angle.

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SUE: Everything I just told you about permafrost goes right out the window here. As you can see, it's right on the street. It hasn't been lifted up. I have no idea what is keeping this building functioning.

MG: The melting permafrost isn't just all this in town. It's being exposed in the gold mines all around Dawson City. A perfect place to see firsthand what's happening underground.

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DWAYNE: Here we have at least four types of ground ice that we can see. Well, three we can see, one we can't.

MG: Dwayne Frais is pointing up to a landslide that's exposing layers of melting ice. And if you listen very carefully, you can hear it.

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So what you're hearing is you're hearing the plot of sediment as it's thawing and it's flopping down and it's splashing when it hits. Yeah, that's what you're hearing. It's very ice rich. It's very ice rich. So as it thaws, it's kind of coming down.

MG: Dwayne is a professor in the Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the University of Alberta in Edmonton. He's here in Dawson City for the North Yukon Permafrost Conference. And this is a field trip to an old mine, so that participants from around the world can really understand the implications of melting permafrost.

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DWAYNE: So we're in the Klondike goldfields. So this is an area where plastic gold mining has exposed ice in order to get at the gold bearing gravels. And so we're using these exposures that have been created to look at the ground ice and the permafrost that's been exposed. So right now we're looking up at sort of maybe 15, 20 metre high exposure here where we can see some big ice bodies within that sort of that scalloped texture to it. Sort of a slightly V-shaped as they come down, they get narrower as they come down. And so those are ice wedges. So those are things that form in the Arctic today. They form in the winter through through what we call thermal contraction cracking. So that just means that the ground temperatures or their air temperatures drop so suddenly, usually in like February or March that the ground actually cracks open and it can crack open for, you know, several metres in depth. And then in the spring, when there's snow melt on the landscape, it can essentially have water percolate into that. And because the ground is frozen, it essentially forms a vein of ice. And if we repeat that hundreds or thousands of times, which is the case here, we can create this wedge of ice. And so in the Arctic today, sometimes you will see polygonal patterns in the Arctic. So that's what it would look like at the surface. But we're actually just looking at them in kind of in cross-section. So they're actually part of a a network of five sided sort of feature here that we're just looking at one cross-section within it. We can see lots of organic matter in it. So as those ice wedges grew, there was lots of organic matter around. Today we know we need to be in the Arctic Circle. We essentially need to be in areas at least north of Inuvik towards to talk to in order to get ice wedges like this forming. So it tells us in the past when that organic matter and those ice wedges were growing, we're probably about 30 to 50000 years ago. It was a period within the Ice Age that was slightly warmer. And so these ice forms were were growing at that time. So these are the kinds of features we're here on the permafrost tour and we're looking at these because these are the kind of features that are, say, along the Dempster Highway north of Dawson here in other areas in the Mackenzie Valley, even in the areas north of Inuvik and lots of places where these features are starting to thaw. And so when they thaw, because the ice represents so much of the volume of the soil and the sediment, when it thaws, we essentially get collapsing of that and we call this thermal karst. And that just means that we essentially start to develop train effects, things that are subsiding. We're starting to develop some people call them sinkholes. And that where these where these features are melting or thawing out.

MG: How unusual is it for something like this to be exposed.

DWAYNE: Outside of the mining areas? We see them in areas where permafrost is degrading rapidly. So if we were up around Fort McPherson area, what we call the Peel Plateau, there's lots of examples of these retrogressive we call them retrogressive or thaw swamps. So areas where the ground ice has become exposed and because there's so much ice in it, the head wall of it just keeps retreating on the order of tens of metres a year. And exposing this ground ice in the head wall. In this area here, we'd have to be in an area usually that has been disturbed by mining activities or something like that. And that's why we're out here, is to look at the ground ice and use these exposures.

MG: What is the impact of that permafrost receding?

DWAYNE: Well locally here, it's a short term thing in these exposures from mining and that might last for five or ten years. It will eventually vegetate, over and stabilise and we can see lots of examples of where the vegetation where that has been disturbed has as revegetated. Increasingly in all areas of the north, we're seeing thaw, we're seeing at least ground is ground is warming in something in many cases here in the Dawson area, ground temperatures are really close to zero. So we're in the what we call the extensive discontinuous permafrost zone. So here ground temperatures are warmer than minus two degrees Celsius and often they're within, you know, -0.5 to -0.2 Degrees Celsius. So we're right getting towards a critical time period. So temperatures have been warming and a lot of these areas and the effects of that in areas, if there's any kind of disturbance of the vegetation from things like fire, we really start to see the impacts of those in areas where the vegetation is mostly intact. Things are still relatively stable, but we know where we are in the boreal forest that we have. These kinds of disturbances are regular parts of our system, so we know we're going to see effects of this in these areas over the coming decades.

MG: Part of that is, as you said, on the Dempster Highway where there are sinkholes, I mean, talk about the impact of that receding, the melting permafrost on infrastructure, for example.

DWAYNE: Yeah. So we know in many areas we need to put roads, we need to build airports, we need to build communities in areas where there's permafrost and there's ground ice. And so a big part of what we need to know is how much ice is in the ground. So permafrost is just ground that's below zero degrees Celsius for two or more years. That's the official definition. But where there's ground ice, so where there's what we call excess ice, so that's ice that's more than the poor space. Those are the areas that if it thaws, we're going to see collapse and subsidence taking place. Other areas where there isn't much ground ice, which we can see examples on the other side of the valley where there's lots of gravels and sands and things there that may have permafrost, they can thaw and they will be thaw stable because they don't have a lot of ice within them. So in areas where, for example, in the Dempster Highway, we heard from one of our colleagues from Yukon University who's been doing studies up there with their groups and they've been showing these areas along the Dempster Highway where it essentially goes across these old ice wedge polygon networks. And these things are being thawed because of local creeks that are sort of running over top of them, forming these sinkholes. The roads are collapsing in areas. There's potential for some of the lakes to drain through some of these things. So there's a lots and lots of challenges in those areas that are just growing year by year across northern Canada.

MG: What about beyond the infrastructure? I mean, what is released when the permafrost melts and recede?

DWAYNE: So permafrost hosts a tremendous amount of carbon. It probably has an amount of carbon that's proportional to what we have in the Earth's atmosphere today. So even though much of that carbon may be stable because it's in wood and things like that, that might not be decomposed very rapidly, even if we lose even, say, a percent or two of that, we're talking about large amounts of carbon that can be released to the atmosphere, either in the form of CO2 or in the form of methane. And so because the permafrost regions cover such a huge expanse from essentially across northern Canada, across Alaska, Siberia and northern Eurasia and into northern Europe, it's such a large area, you know, probably one and a half times the size of Canada, even a small amount of change in those areas and a change in the balance of that of that carbon that's going into storage in permafrost versus what's being released by the decomposition of that organic matter by mostly by microbes makes it makes a big difference. And so recent studies have kind of shown us that we're probably right at the point where permafrost used to be a long term carbon sink for organic matter, for thousands of years, a century for the last 10,000 years. And now we're shifting. And the best models right now are suggesting that were permafrost has become a net contributor of carbon to the atmosphere.

MG: That doesn't sound good.

DWAYNE: It doesn't sound good. And so there's a lot of effort going on to better quantify that because the projections, if the numbers are correct, the projections are suggesting that we could we could start to see emissions from permafrost, maybe approximating our Canadian total emissions, for example. So we're starting to see and the challenge is how much is being released versus the increased vegetation growth from longer seasons and warmer conditions. But what's happening is the active layer that seasonally thawed part of the permafrost at the top is just having a longer season. So the microbes have a longer season in order to chew up their organic matter and release gases to the atmosphere. And so all evidence seems to just suggest we're on a trajectory for increasing those contributions.

MG: Is that already happening here? I mean, somebody had pointed out earlier there's little burps from the get of the ground that's there.

DWAYNE: So we're seeing an area here where water is accumulating, coming off the permafrost with a lot of organic matter. It will be anoxic because it's essentially underwater. So there's no oxygen getting in. And so we're probably seeing methane bubbling up through these through these. So it's very localised here, relatively small. It's less of an issue at this sort of scale. It's a bigger issue because the permafrost regions are just such a big part of the northern hemisphere. So Canada, upwards of half of Canada is underlain by permafrost. Somewhere between 35 and 50% of Canada has permafrost. So if you just start thinking about that area warming and the potential contributions, we're talking about a big area now, you know, times that by two or three times and we're starting to get at the scale of the problem.

MG: Is there anything that can be done to slow that down?

DWAYNE: Well, we've had workshops and things dedicated to this and tried to come up with ideas. And there's a lot of things that you can do at the local scale. So you can do things with, you know, if you have an airport, if you have a road, you have a community school, you have all of these things at the local scale. There's things that you can do on the engineering side. There's technologies that can be used to help freeze the ground and such. But the challenge is with permafrost regions is the carbon in the area is just it's just such a diffuse problem that it's really hard to do anything that would amount to the entire region. So you can do things locally, but trying to cover the permafrost regions of the northern hemisphere is really impossible. And so the only thing that, you know, ultimately is the solution to this is reducing emissions. And that's not a very satisfying answer to the problem. But that's the one thing we know we can do. We know that there are ways that we can sort of help direct areas of thaw, hopefully towards maybe more carbon positive sort of outcomes and things. But it's a real challenge because these areas have evolved with permafrost, with a cold climate. And so how they're going to develop with thaw and the new trajectories is probably on a novel trajectory. So even the vegetation that will come back after some of these areas thaw may not be what was there before. So we're starting to think about how do we maybe influence how that happens and how do we minimise the impacts, particularly carbon management in some of these areas. But that's a real new area that people are just really starting to try to think about and come up with.

MG: And you're almost at the point of adaptation and thinking about adaptation when when you're talking about the scale that you're describing.

DWAYNE: That's right. And so, you know, there's a lot of movements amongst northern communities, indigenous communities, you know, who are really concerned about this problem, who have a lot of experience in these landscapes, who hopefully will help to come up with some of the solutions. You know, I think there's a great irony here that Northern people have probably contributed the least to this carbon problem, but are likely to be the most affected because of permafrost and the impacts of permafrost. And so there's a great irony there that that, you know, hopefully is not lost on on most people.

MG: What's, just finally, what's revealed when when something like this happens? I mean, are there things that that are on earth? Are the things that that appear when when this kind of opening happened?

DWAYNE: Sure. You know, so we're in the goldfields here. And so in this area, we have old sediments that date back to the ice age, back to a time when we had horses and mammoths and lions and camels and things living in the Arctic. And so the fossils from those animals are found through some of the mining. But equally there's things like ancient DNA from these sediments. So there's lots of different types of studies that take place with the permafrost because permafrost really is the most exceptional material on on the planet for the preservation of past life. And so we've done a lot of work at and using these exposures to try to sample those kinds of periods of the past and reconstruct the environments that existed in the past.

MG: That's a real dilemma. You don't actually want to be able to study this stuff. Like you'd rather that it's kept away, but at the same time, when it's revealed, there's incredible things that you can learn.

DWAYNE: That's right. And so we take advantage of these sort of non-traditional sources of information. And we we do studies in these areas. And so we're interested in some of these examples here, because they're in the Mackenzie Valley, where we do a lot of work in the south region, west of Norman Wells and the community of Toledo in the Mackenzie Mountains. There's a lot of thar swamps, there's a lot of degrading permafrost there in exactly these same types of sediments. And so we're trying to understand better how much ice is within them, how does it form, how do we recognise it, how do we map it and how do we sort of project what are going to be the most sensitive areas on our landscape, which is kind of the best we can do to try to move ahead of, you know, what's that going to look like and what will happen to the landscape as thaw occurs over the next decade or the next 20 years. And some of that's being revealed in areas that were burned by forest fires already today. But the unburned areas, similar things will happen in those areas, but probably not for another ten or 20 years or until a big forest fire happens. And so how do we get ahead of that? How do we plan how do we come up with strategies to sort of minimise? The impacts in terms of infrastructures and things like that, that that might be sort of planned. So for example, the Mackenzie Valley has the proposed Mackenzie Valley All Weather Road, which will connect Wrigley with Norman Wells, for example. And so how do we pick a route for that? How do we inform our best decisions to try to minimise the future costs of permafrost thaw? Because we we don't really have a way to stop this from happening. We can just try to minimise the impacts of it by making the best choices we can as we move forward.

MG: That's great. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

DWAYNE: Thank you. Bye.

MG: You can hear more on this holiday Monday from my trip to the Yukon. We were up there in late August, just an extraordinary part of the country. On Monday, we will bring you the story, the astonishing discovery of the mummified baby mammoth. That's coming up Monday on The Current. That is the programme for this Friday and for this week is up next on CBC Radio One. Filmmaker Ruben Östlund speaking at Tom Power. You'll hear that in just a moment. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend and happy Thanksgiving.

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Friday October 7, 2022 Full Transcript

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