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The AIH Transcript for August 31, 2022

KATIE SIMPSON: Hello. I'm Katie Simpson.

SAMIRA MMOHYEDDIN: Good evening. I'm Samira Mohyeddin, sitting in for Chris Howden. And this is As It Happens.

[Theme]

Prologue

SM: Tonight:

KS: Deep trouble. As floods devastate huge swaths of Pakistan killing hundreds, our guest says the World's wealthiest countries have a responsibility to help -- because they're also responsible for the climate change that fueled the disaster.

SM: Behind the schemes. A new book alleges that a Canadian spy and an international coverup were involved in the case of a British teen who was smuggled into Syria before joining ISIS.

KS: Thirst aid. The water system in Jackson, Mississippi, has collapsed, leaving residents clambering for clean water, including one elderly resident who says this situation could have been avoided.

SM: Tragic thaw. A new study discovers that the melting of Greenland's ice cap is now inevitable. One of the researchers tells us what that will mean.

KS: Toxic shock. An Ontario restaurant is set to reopen after a contaminated dish sent twelve people to hospital. The area's Medical Officer of Health tells us about the investigation into accidental poisoning.

SM: And... The ties that bind. 20 years after Avril Lavigne released her debut album "Let Go" and inspired a legion of fans to don ties, the Napanee-Ontario singer-songwriter gets a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that considers this is a good reminder never to get down on one Napanee.

Part 1: Pakistan Floods, Jackson Mississippi Water, Restaurant Poisoning

Pakistan Floods

Guest: Sara Hayat

SM: For people in Pakistan, the flooding has been relentless. And now, after months of heavy rains, more than a thousand people are dead. A million homes have been destroyed, leaving scores of people homeless. Roads and crops have been washed out. About a third of the country is underwater. The UN Secretary General is appealing for aid, saying Pakistan is facing QUOTE "a monsoon on steroids." Sara Hayat is a climate change lawyer. We reached her in Lahore.

KS: Sara, what words would you use to describe the extent of this flooding?

SARA HAYAT: Catastrophic. This is biblical in nature. Really, the kind of flooding that we're experiencing this time around. And Pakistan has been exposed to floods in the past. But what we're seeing this time, the scale of it, the devastation that's being caused, I don't think we could have prepared for it. I don't think we could have fathomed it. And it's… it's just… it's as heartbreaking as it gets. If you want figures, about 1,100 people have died since June. One in seven Pakistani is sleeping out in the open right now. Thirty-three million people displaced, crops gone, livelihood gone. Everything that you can imagine that belonged to the flood affectees is gone.

KS: The scale and the scope when you describe it like that is absolutely overwhelming. I'm wondering if you can describe some of the scenes that are unfolding on the ground there.

SH: So right now, evacuation teams and rescue teams, and they're on the ground. They're trying to help. It's been very difficult because we've lost thousands of kilometres of road. A lot of bridges have been destroyed. So a lot of areas in the country -- a lot of districts -- have been severed entirely. And accessing them has been difficult. But as our minister said, our minister for Climate Change… I think she's right. She turned around, and she said it's just one entire ocean. And the provinces of Sind and Balochistan, which are coastal provinces, are pretty much submerged under water. And those people who have been evacuated are currently in makeshift camps. And that… those are not conducive to any form of comfort. I mean, they are as makeshift as it gets. There's a dearth of food. There's a dearth of drinking water. We're hearing reports of waterborne diseases, diarrhoeal infections and then dengue and malaria always comes up around this time of the year. And with floodwater, there's going to be a much larger outbreak of vector-borne diseases. And schools are gone. Children are affected. Some reports are saying out of the 1,100 people we've lost, a very substantial number are actually children.

KS: And the way you describe the challenges to getting help to the people that have survived this catastrophe, you know, is it the lack of infrastructure now? Is that the biggest challenge in trying to physically get aid to people?

SH: The lack of infrastructure is definitely one of the bigger challenges. Also, it keeps raining. And it's torrential, really, the rain. So it's just one second, it's not raining. And then the next second, there's a torrential downpour. That's been very challenging. And then, because of the areas that are submerged, even if they were roads, transportation couldn't access them. So we're using helicopters to drop food rations and food packets to people who are still stranded but surrounded by water.

KS: We've heard from UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres, and he says, let's stop sleepwalking toward the destruction of our planet by climate change. And he went on to say today it's Pakistan, tomorrow it could be your country. Do you think that message is going to start really resonating with people when they see the devastating images coming out of that country?

SH: I hope so, Katie. The truth is that Pakistan has been raising its voice -- or her voice -- on multiple international forums because climate change has been a glaring reality for us for a couple of years now. We are literally living with it. The kind of heatwaves we are getting, they're more prolonged now. Every year, they get more severe, more prolonged. We are experiencing agricultural shortages again because of temperature variations. The kind of monsoons we are getting… Pakistan is not alien to monsoon rains. Every year, we get monsoon rains, and we dread them because our cities are really not designed for very heavy rainfall. But generally, we get about three to four cycles of monsoon rains. This time round we've already gotten eight cycles. And we're expecting more. And there are some predictions or forecasts that suggest that monsoon rains will carry well into the middle of October, which is why the floods that we're seeing, really. So as far as your question about whether the world will wake up to what's happening in Pakistan and to the idea or the reality that they could be next, I think a bunch of premiers have spoken up and are blaming the developed world for it, really. And that, I'm afraid, is one of those realities of climate change that we can't ignore. For example, like, Pakistan is angry because we barely contribute to global greenhouse gas emissions contributions and about 0.8 per cent. That's negligible. And yet, we're on the receiving end of it. We are… we're facing the brunt of climate change. What I can, though, say is that at this point where climate change is making headlines, and a lot of countries are stepping up to give aid. For example, Bangladesh has just sent relief to Pakistan. They've sent food and medicines. We are in dire need of aid. The U.S., the U.K., Turkey has said to relief workers. They're on the ground at this point. The UN has… is collecting quite a bit of aid. And so we are grateful on that count.

KS: You talk about anger, that people are blaming the developed world for this climate catastrophe that is unfolding right now in Pakistan. Can you speak to that? About where that anger is coming from and where it's targeted?

SH: So this anger has been a part of the discourse around climate change for a while now. And there are really two ways to look at it. One, that, yes, the developed world is behind this global phenomenon. And the developing world, and low-lying island nation states, and especially the subcontinent, which is India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, the global south, we're facing the brunt of it. And so, we want the developed world to do whatever they can in the form of sending funds to this part of the world, to the global south, so that we can start combating climate change, we can start adapting to it, mitigating it. And also, I think there is a very strong need and the… and the anger really should be understood as send help. And the best way to do that for the developed world is to invest in technological advances and then transfer that technology to the global south, because we need to start adapting and living with climate change as best as we can. This is a humanitarian crisis for my country. And this is a climate crisis for the… for the world. And for Pakistan and for the world, this is an eye-opener for everybody.

KS: Sara, thank you for your time today.

SH: Absolutely. Thank you.

SM: Sara Hayat is a climate change lawyer and policy specialist. She was in Lahore. You can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[ambient instrumental]

Jackson Mississippi Water

Guest: Jeraldine Watts

SM: Some people in Jackson, Mississippi, can't even flush a toilet without waiting in long lines for bottled water. This week, there was a complete breakdown in the city's water system. The city was already under a boil-water advisory. Then torrential rainfall flooded the system and took the treatment plant offline. And, in some cases, even the bottled water has run out. Last night, President Biden declared a state of emergency in Mississippi. 86-year-old Jeraldine Watts lives in Jackson. That's where we reached her.

KS: Jeraldine, just how hard has it been for people in Jackson to get their hands on bottled water this week?

JERALDINE WATTS: For people who have to come a long distance to go to where the water is being distributed, it's kind of hectic because you're in a long line and you've got to wait, burn your gas up, which is hot. And in addition to having to wait in the heat if you don't have air to get water. So that… that… that's bad.

KS: Describe what you've seen in Jackson as people are trying to get water.

JW: It's a scramble. People are trying to rush and get in a line to get water. And so you have a long line. That's a long line to wait to get the water. In the last couple of weeks, it has gotten a little better because they have more help, and the lines have been moving a little faster. But it's still a line. When I heard about it, I was just coming back into Jackson from the alligator hunt. And so I had to go out quickly to try to get some. I know… I knew it was going to be a rush of people trying to get in. When I got to the store where they have all the palettes with the water on it, it was about 10 cases of water there. I got four, and another lady got three, and a man got two, and it was gone.

KS: What's it been like for you to see people in your city not being able to take a bath or flush their toilets or have clean drinking water?

JW: Oh, it's been… been miserable. It's been awesome. It's just bad. To hear my friends… we were talking on the phone, saying that I wish I had… could take a good shower. Most people don't want to take a shower in the water because it feels bad. I heard a girl say this morning, I don't want to take a shower because some of it might get in my mouth. So that's bad. I haven't had a shower since Sunday.

KS: How are you feeling about that?

JW: [chuckling] If you've ever missed a couple of days without a shower, you know… you know what you do when you can't take a shower. You put water on everything that you can. I boil… I take the water and boil it and take it to the bathroom and do what I need to do. I either have to stay here or go somewhere else where I know that I'm not in Jackson, like in Canton or where my son lives in Lewisville, Mississippi, if I want to get out of this situation.

KS: How long would you have to drive if you want to have a clean shower?

JW: An hour-and-a-half.

KS: Your Governor, Tate Reeves, says this crisis has happened because of a bunch of different failures all happening at once. The water treatment facility had been damaged… pumps, and there had been heavy rain. If you could speak to the governor, what would you say to him?

JW: If I could speak to the governor, I would say this problem we are having now is not one that just happened. We have had a water situation problem for the last 10 or 15 years. It's never gotten to this situation like we are now. But we've had water problems before. Like our water… our pressure getting low, the water pressure low. You can't get any water. The water turned brown. You know, the water coming out, the pipes is brown. So this hasn't just happened. And I don't know what exactly is the cause of it. But I have my own ideas what the cause of it is. But I'm not running anything. So I don't… I don't I don't have any say-so as to what should have happened.

KS: Is there someone you blame for this… for this crisis?

JW: It's not one person that is responsible for doing everything. Whatever you are elected or appointed to do, you need to do that. And I think our water situation should have been a priority long before now because you have human lives that depend on fresh and clean water. So I think that should have been a priority.

KS Do you think that local officials failed to prioritize the water system, and that's why you're in the situation now?

JW: I think anybody that knows about situations like we are in now, we have to scale it down to who's in authority. But if you know there's a problem in your house, as a wife, as mother, wife, or as the head of your house, you're going to fix that problem if you know it's going to be detrimental to some things in the house, or to the family in the house. You're going to fix them.

KS: Could you ever imagine anything like this happening?

JW: No, I never did imagine it because they've been fix… a couple of years ago -- two or three years ago -- they were… they put new water metres in. And everybody thought that would fix the problem, but that didn't do it. So apparently, it was more than just the metres; it was the pipes and the this and that and the other. Because we are down now to where we can't even drink the water, nor brush our teeth or take a bath. We don't need to be bathing… if I can't brush my teeth with it, I don't need to let it get on me any other kind of way.

KS: You've mentioned a number of times that your kids are helping you out big time through this. What are your concerns if this continues to drag on beyond just a few days?

JW: Oh, it's going to put a burden on them trying to help me. And it's going to put a burden on everybody trying to get help. You know, if you've got to stop and go get water outside of your home… and a 24-bottle case of water would last me a little over a day. If I'm having to cook with it, drink it, you know, that's… and with three people here in the house, that's kind of bad. So with everybody trying to deal with this water, I just don't know what's going to happen to the city if it goes any longer than maybe a couple of weeks. And this happened Monday. And today is Wednesday. And we are in a… this city is in a crisis now. People are in… in… in a… in a state of panic almost.

KS: All right, Jeraldine, we'll leave the conversation there. I hope you have some clean drinking water soon.

JW: Oh, thank you. I hope we do, too. I just have to pray about… hope we can find water to take care of the necessities.

KS: Well, Jeraldine, I wish you good luck.

JW: Thank you so much.

KS: Bye.

JW: All right. Bye-bye.

SM: We reached Jeraldine Watts in Jackson, Mississippi.

[ambient instrumental]

Restaurant Poisoning

Guest: Dr. Barry Pakes

SM: It started as a regular evening for a restaurant in Markham, Ontario and its patrons. It ended with the restaurant shut down and more than a dozen people seriously ill -- with four in intensive care. It was an unusual case of food poisoning linked to a chicken dish that had been "accidentally contaminated" with something called aconite -- which is also known as wolfsbane. Today, the restaurant was cleared to reopen by the local public health unit. Dr. Barry Pakes is the York Region Medical Officer of Health. We reached him in Toronto.

KS: Dr. Pakes, how are the people who are poisoned by this food doing now?

DR. BARRY PAKES: So my understanding is that they are improving. So, some of those 12 people who eat this dish that we'll, I'm sure, speak about in a moment became, you know, somewhat ill. But all of them came to the hospital. Most of them were sent home. But, you know, as you know, four of them were admitted to the ICU, the intensive care unit. And, you know, that means obviously quite severely ill. But they were treated appropriately. And the toxidrome -- or the sort of constellation of symptoms that happens with this kind of toxicity -- was identified, and they were supported and treated appropriately. And my understanding now is that they are doing better. And, in fact, some have been released from the ICU. A couple are still there, which means, you know, still severely ill. But my understanding is that they are… they are doing better. And I don't anticipate any deaths, hopefully, certainly from this event.

KS: What have you learned about how this all happened?

DBP: So, you know, thankfully we were able to collaborate with the… and got a lot of great information from the restaurant themselves, from… from lots of people involved. In foodborne illness, it's often, you know, it's something in public health and health protection that we are used to doing, we do very often. It's often piecing together a very difficult puzzle. But in this case, you know, all of the 12 people who were from three different households came to the hospital and identified where they had eaten. And it was… it was very clear. And one of the health care providers at the hospital actually called the police, who immediately called us and very quickly, we shut down the restaurant, began investigation, and it was pretty clear that there was a particular spice involved. So the, you know, not only the people involved tasted something a bit bitter, but I believe the owner-operator also sort of tasted the item and tongue went numb. So, you know, it was pretty clear that that particular spice that was involved in this chicken dish was involved. And then, it was a matter of, you know, figuring out all the other pieces. Where is this coming from? How do we protect the public from ingesting? Or is there… is there a risk to the general public? And, you know, to us right now, it's… it's clear that there isn't likely a very significant risk, but that's what we're working on right now.

KS: Tell us about the spice that you traced through this.

DBP: So, you know, the spice is specifically, you know, it… it goes by a number of different names. So we're not entirely sure on the name of it and, you know, how it might have been distributed. So that is something that we're working on right now. What we certainly do know, and this… there are a couple of cases, a very small number, both in Canada recently in… in February in B.C. and around the world. This has been associated with ginger root or with something called galangal. And oftentimes, what it is is an accidental… you know, when they're… when they're making a spice, they can, you know, include… erroneously include a root that doesn't belong there. And, you know, it's a bit challenging always… you know, we're doing our best to understand, you know, how it happened in this particular case. And, in fact, we just spoke to the folks in B.C. where this had happened previously, and it was a similar kind of compound, but a bit of a different mechanism.

KS: Understanding that this is still something that's ongoing right now and there's still… you're still waiting for results, it's my understanding that this is traced to something called aconitet or wolfsbane. Is… is that the case? And what is that?

DBP: Yes. So that is… that is where the actual toxin itself comes from. So the questions that remain are how did that get into a food product? But that is something that's used in… in traditional Chinese medicine. And… but when it is used in such a way, it's detoxified. And it has been used sort of historically, you know, there… there's a whole history of how this kind of plant was used in poisons. And, you know, there's some speculation that it might have killed Socrates or Alexander the Great. So, you know, it has a history of being used in that… in that way and not really as a food item. But there… there is this history of cross-contamination occasionally. And that's what we believe happened. And aconite is a… is a pretty potent toxin. So it's the sort of thing that, you know, is similar to a number of animal-based toxins. It messes with the electrical balance across the cells of the human body. And so, when we think about the neurologic system, the brain and the heart, if you've got something so potent that messes with that electrical balance, then you've got things like numbness and tingling related to the nerves and most importantly, what is often fatal or severe. And in our case here, probably what happened to those who had to go to the ICU, it interferes with the… the rhythm of the heart and with the beating of the heart.

KS: You mentioned cross-contamination. Is that what you think happened here? How something like… something that can be this dangerous ended up in commercial spice?

DBP: You know, there are a number of different possibilities. So one of which, of course, is intentional. And we don't believe that there's any… you know, there's no evidence right now that it's intentional. So, you know, cross contamination accidentally in the, you know, manufacturing or the creation of the spice or the powder. It could also be, you know, if it's repackaged, something could be mixed accidentally. Things could be mislabelled as well. So all of those are possibilities right now that we're exploring. And we certainly have some leads, and we're trying to actually confirm some of those leads and to better understand, you know, how we can make sure the product is off the shelf. And I will note that, you know, as soon as this did come to our attention, shutting down the… the… the restaurant and investigating was the first step. The next step, of course, was to, you know, go to the establishment where this was purchased and make sure we took all of that off of the shelves, which we did. And we now have a bit of better understanding just today, you know, where else this might be distributed to. And it's a very small distribution. So again, the public doesn't really need to worry about this. But, you know, we've… we've notified those locally to take it off the shelves and we're working with lots of partners, provincially and federally -- the Canadian Food Inspection Agency -- to make sure that, you know, no, this product can be purchased by anyone going forward. And also what we're working on, of course, is to, you know, better understand how to communicate to the public what people might have purchased and, you know, what exactly to dispose of.

KS: And as that continues, the restaurant has been approved to reopen today. Are you confident that that can be done safely?

DPB: Yes. Well, I… you know, I think given that we've identified exactly what the issue was, right? The toxin was -- the threat to health was -- there's no reason to keep a site, you know, like a small business or restaurant closed unnecessarily, right? So I'm not sure whether it's opened yet. But, you know, there's no reason once that is no longer present to keep it closed. And… and, you know, all indications are that it'll be cleared open. Whether they decide to open at this point or take a little bit of a break, you know, that's up to them. But I see no reason to keep it closed any longer than necessary.

KS: Dr. Pakes, thank you for your time today.

DPB: Thank you. Have a great day.

SM: That was Dr. Barry Pakes, the York Region Medical Officer of Health. We reached him in Toronto.

[jazz]

Avril Lavigne Walk Of Fame

SM: It's a tale as old as time: He was a Sk8er Boi. She said, "See you later, boy". But then it got Complicated. And honestly, there were an awful lot of neck ties involved. It was 2002. Forgive us. Of course, I am talking about the other Canadian artist who famously told us "That's the way it is." Could I make it ANY more obvious? No? Well, it has been 20 years since Avril Lavigne put Napanee, Ontario, on the map with her debut album "Let Go". And today the Canadian singer-songwriter was honoured with her very own star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. She joins 2,730 other celebrities with stars on sidewalks of the L.A. neighbourhood. And on her particular corner at Hollywood and Argyle, she'll be neighbours with 1950s jazz legends like Celia Cruz and Bob Crosby. And if that company seems a little unlikely for Avril, it's not really. She's always played well with others. In fact, she's written songs other musicians have taken to the charts, like this one: Made famous by Kelly Clarkson, and sung here by Avril Lavigne.

[“Breakaway” as sung by Kelly Clarkson]

Part 2: Shamima Begum: Lawyer, Zombie Ice Melt

Shamima Begum: Lawyer

Guest: Tasnime Akunjee

SM: It's been seven years since a then-15-year-old Shamima Begum entered Syria and joined ISIS. There, the British teen gave birth to three children who all died young and has continued to defend the Islamic state. In response, British officials revoked her British citizenship, leaving her stateless. In 2015, CBC reported that the man who helped smuggle her and other teens into Syria claimed to be an informant for Canadian intelligence. Now, a new book written by Richard Kerbaj -- a former security correspondent for The Sunday Times builds on those claims -- and alleges that authorities in the U.K. knew about Canada's involvement -- and helped cover it up. Tasnime Akunjee is the lawyer for Shamima Begum's family. We reached him in London.

KS: Mr. Akunjee, what do you make of these claims that Shamima Begum was trafficked into Syria by a Canadian spy and that the British government knew that when they revoked her citizenship?

TASNIME AKUNJEE: Well, I mean, we're aware of that because we ourselves had written to Sajid Javid and pointed out the fact that Shamima Begum had been trafficked in accordance with the media reporting that was coming out of Turkey. We gave the information to him pointedly back in 2019. The fact that it's now being confirmed by the Canadian authorities is quite helpful to her plight. But also the fact that they communicated it to the police who... who didn't communicate it to us, albeit that Richard Walton, the head of the investigation at the time, decided for the last seven years, not to mention any of this to the family, but rather to put it into a book that he was happy to publish, which we think is rather egregious for them as well.

KS: So, if it's true, how might this information change the fight to get her citizenship back?

TA: Well, that fight continues, and it continued and was listed -- is listed -- for a hearing in November of this year. Now, the issues about her being a victim of child trafficking, that's the live issue being diced up in that hearing. And this factors into that. It's a tacit admission by a state -- and a Western state at that -- that they were involved in the trafficking of children. And that certainly does factor into the proportionality of whether or not her citizenship should have been stripped.

KS: There is an allegation that governments tried to cover this up. That they didn't want it to become public. What do you make of that allegation?

TA: Well, that's clearly correct. Richard Walton -- again, for the Met Police -- confirms that the Canadians had come over to see him. They did not see him in the presence of the U.K. security services, which is a breach of any protocol there. And they effectively attempted to get ahead of the release of this information by the Turks. And they only did so because they were aware that the Turks were going to release this. So it was very clear that the Canadian security services were simply attempting to either keep it covered up -- or if it were to be disclosed -- to try and convince other Western governments, rather than the Turks themselves, to try and play this down entirely.

KS: Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was asked about the situation today. And he said the fight against terrorism requires intelligence services to be flexible and creative in their approach. But he added that they're bound by strict rules and principles. He said that he would ensure that proper oversight was done and follow up if necessary. What do you make of his comments?

TA: Well, I mean, he is simply stating what should happen. But, you know, many security services, including the… the Canadian security services, have fallen foul of their own rules in the past. So, you know, it's all well and good for a prime minister or a president or a head of state to say, yes, we follow the rules. But that's patently not the case in many examples. And in this case, being flexible is rather a maybe twisted phrase when you're talking about intelligence being worth more than the lives of children. And make no mistake, in this case, at least three children who were transported by a Canadian asset have died as a result. And, you know, three other children -- Shamima Begum's children -- who came into existence after that, but they have also lost their lives.

KS: Back in 2015, Mohammed Al Rasheed, the… the alleged person who was involved in this, was detained. And CSIS told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that he wasn't an employee of the agency. Have you seen any direct evidence that he was working with Canadian intelligence officers?

TA: The Turks have disclosed that he… Mr. Al Rasheed had taken video footage of Shamima Begum and the other girls. And that he had taken pictures of their passports. And he admits to having transmitted those images of videos to his Canadian handler, who was in the Canadian embassy in Jordan. So whether or not somebody is a contractor or an employee is a distinction without a difference. I'm sure that if he were in Canada, your tax office would have been taxing his income just the same.

KS: Ms. Begum has previously told reporters that she did not regret her decision to join ISIS, and defended the group's ideology. Wouldn't she be a security risk if she does return to England?

TA: Well, what is she a security risk of? For someone to accuse an individual of being a terrorist or whathaveyou, you'd have to bring evidence of that. And in terms of the numbers of people who had gone over to Syria from the U.K. -- some estimates put that at 4,000 people -- of which before Shamima Begum had her citizenship stripped, 400 individuals had returned. And Sajid Javid -- who was the home secretary at the time -- admitted that out of those 400 there were male fighters, some of which were not an insignificant risk. Again, at the same time where the U.K. authorities were spending treasure and time in trying to capture in Libya one of the co-conspirators of the bombing of the Ariana Grande concert. But he was certainly a dangerous individual. Now, there's certainly no suggestion that Shamima Begum is anywhere near as dangerous. Yet, we've got a completely dualist approach.

KS: So Ms. Begum right now is currently in a refugee camp in northern Syria. Can you tell us what daily life is like for her right now?

TA: It's mediaeval. If you look at the World Health Organisation's report on those camps, the children who are there have the same death rates there as pre-existence of medicine. And that has been tragically borne out in the fact that Shamima Begum gave birth to a boy who then died of pneumonia within two weeks of birth -- due to the fact that there was no availability of medication at those camps.

KS: Realistically, do you think the British government will ever allow her to return back to the U.K.?

TA: We have a British government at the moment who, you know, are vying for a right-wing populism against the likes of Trump on that level. So, in terms of their appetite for having her back, certainly not. But we're not dealing with the government at this stage. We're now dealing with the U.K. court system and what is law. And those arguments will be had in a court, not in a populist fashion. It's not a vote. It's going to be the law being applied to a given situation.

KS: All right. We'll leave the conversation there. Thank you very much for your time today.

TA: Thank you.

SM: Tasnime Akunjee is the lawyer for Shamima Begum's family. We reached him in London.

[post rock]

Invasive Plant Picker

SM: At first, it sounds like a pretty sweet way to spend the summer and get paid. Katie Church and her team was out paddling a canoe on Ontario's Welland River. But the real work wasn't quite as picturesque. Ms. Church's job was sighting and pulling out by hand any invasive European water chestnuts they came across. And there were a lot. In all, they yanked some 7,000 plants. Here is Katie Church out on the water with CBC reporter Haydn Watters.

[sc]

KATIE CHURCH: Our team has been out here all summer, canoeing the Welland River, trying to remove all the European water chestnut that we've been finding.

HAYDN WATTERS: And what have you found exactly?

KC: We found lots of chestnut in patches along the Welland River.

HW: Okay, so you are a pro at this. Like, what are you looking for as we're heading up along the river here? Where would be areas where you would most likely see this?

KC: So as we're going along right now, I'm keeping my eye on any floating aquatic plants and taking a closer look at the ones that I would think they're chestnut. They like to grow in this kind of hairy algae that's floating along here. They like it because it's very stagnant water. So that's a place that we would, you know, keep our extra close eye on.

HW: What makes you think it's chestnut? Like, what makes you think that, exactly?

KC: So, I mean, I'm pretty pro at it. I've been looking at them all summer. We're pretty… we have an eye for it now. But it basically is a floating plant, and it has a different shade of green compared to all the other aquatic plants.

HW: Okay. And how often are you thinking about it? Like, are you thinking about chestnut when you leave the water at night?

KC: I dream about it. [chuckling]

HW: And what do those dreams look like?

KC: Um, just like… I look at the chestnut in the water, and removing it, and making sure everything is clear. [chuckling]

HW: How did you know when, like, we've done a good job here? Like, we've… how do you know that exactly?

KC: So we've been surveying it all summer. And, you know, as we've gotten through all the big patches, we've canoed along the… the big stretch here from Welland Port to Welland a couple of times. And we've only been finding… I mean, it's just recently we've only found one through that whole stretch. So, we've pretty… we're pretty confident that it's clear.

HW: How do you know that there's no chestnut? How are you confident of that?

KC: Um, I don't see any floating plants. So they would be floating, like, on top of here. And they… I don't see any.

HW: How are you feeling? Is that like a proud feeling? Or that you've done your work? Or how are you feeling?

KC: Very proud. I'm very proud of our team and what we've been able to accomplish in such a short field season.

WH: Were you tired of removing them at the end of the day? Like how would you feel at the end of the day of removing chestnut?

KC: Pretty tired. It's a lot of work, especially when you get into those big patches. And you… everywhere you look, there's chestnut, and all you want to do is remove it. So, long days, but again, definitely worth it. It's not something we can just say, oh my gosh, and then walk away from it. It's something we have to say, oh my gosh, and then get to work and actually do it and remove it. We're professional canoers now, I would say. And the biggest stretch we actually did two days ago; it was a 20-kilometre paddle for our team, so I'm really proud of them. They really did a great job.

[/sc]

SM: That was Katie Church talking about her summer job plucking invasive European water chestnuts with CBC reporter Haydn Watters.

[calypso]

Zombie Ice Melt

Guest: Alun Hubbard

SM: The Greenland ice caps are melting, and scientists say there may be nothing we can do to stop it. A study published Monday found that a section of Greenland's ice is now irreversibly set to disappear -- more than twice as much as the previous forecasts. And it's all because of something that some are referring to as "zombie ice". Alun Hubbard is a co-author of the study and a professor of glaciology at the Arctic University in Tromsø. We reached him in the middle of a rainstorm in the Alps -- north of Lake Garda in Italy.

KS: Alun, what is this so-called zombie ice, and why is it called zombie ice?

ALUN HUBBARD: It's referring to the volume of the Greenland ice sheet. What… what we're talking about in terms of this zombie ice is that fraction of the ice sheet, its volume -- 3.3%, which is 27 centimetres of global sea level rise -- which is now irreversibly committed to melt and turn into global sea level rise. So, it's effectively that portion of the ice sheet that is gone. It's just taking time to get there.

KS: And when all of this ice melts -- this zombie ice -- what's going to happen?

AH: Well, sea levels rise. We're already seeing about half a centimetre -- five millimetres -- per year of global sea level rise, which has increased -- doubled -- in the last 15 years or so. And most of it now is coming from the Greenland ice sheet with a little bit from Antarctica. And then, melting of glaciers around the planet in mountain regions -- British Columbia and Alaska, for example. What we're seeing is that we've got this sort of background sea level rise that is occurring. And, of course, what that does is it lowers the baseline by which you can protect your coasts.

KS: You've been working on ice sheets for over 30 years. When you see these ice caps, and you look at them, what signs do you see that are giving us a glimpse of really what's to come?

AH: I mean, I keep using this phrase gobsmacking changes occur in the Greenland ice sheet. I've been to Petermann Glacier in the far north, an area that's meant to be frigid. It's almost 80 degrees north. It's going to be very, very cold. Everything's going to be stable there. One year I was there, and there's a canyon. It's about the size of the Grand Canyon… bigger, in fact. And it was full of ice one summer. And then, I returned the following summer, and it had completely gone. I mean, that was… that was three, four or five times the size of Manhattan Island, and it had disappeared within a year.

KS: Did you ever imagine it would come to this?

AH: No, that's a really good question, actually. I mean, I think I would have called myself 10 years even ago, you know, the classic dispassionate, British, slightly objective, condescending kind of scientist. And particularly in the last five years, I'd say, I have had… I mean, you know, you could call it a paradigm shift or something, but I've had to really rethink how I view the cryosphere and those icy elements of the planet. And, of course, other parts of the planet, too, that are… that are also changing very fast as the environment and the climate warms.

KS: When it comes to the sea levels, 27 centimetres is your conservative estimate. If that's the conservative estimate. Where are things on the other end of the scale? Just how bad do you fear things could get?

AH: It's basically… if, for example, we take a hot summer in Greenland -- and there's been plenty of them, five record-breaking summers in the last 10 years. But if we say, for example, take 2012 and plug it into this, we end up with almost, well, 78 centimetres, getting on for a metre of global sea level rise and a much, much larger 10 per cent loss of Greenland's ice volume.

KS: You spoke about flooding being a major concern, but I'm wondering if you can sort of break down what the tangible impact is going to be with this… you know, this melting ice and the change in sea levels?

AH: Within a metre, sea level rise is a catastrophe for low-lying coastal areas of the world. In the developed world, it means some major cities are going to get flooded. Parts of London, Amsterdam, New York. Elsewhere on the planet, it's going to be an absolute human tragedy because in these areas... I'm thinking of the Asian Delta Plains. I mean, there are floods going on at the moment in Pakistan from the Indus. The Bangladeshi delta. As I said, those Pacific Islands. A metre of global sea level rise, I mean, that's a human tragedy on the scale of getting on for a billion people who are going to be indirectly affected by this. And in a way, you know, that I find abhorrent in terms of my sort of humanity or what I'm seeing. I don't see it getting better before it gets quite a bit worse.

KS: If you don't see it getting better before it gets worse, you know, you've… you have been at this for decades, and it's blow after blow after blow. Bad news for the climate. Bad news for the climate. How is that affecting your levels of… do you have levels of hope going forward?

AH: [laughing] I do. I do. I mean, I'm… I'm a constant optimist for the human race. And… and as I said, I also have that geological perspective. Despite the human tragedy, the… the planet will keep on trucking. I mean, you know, the planet's been here for billions of years. We've been here, but an eye blink at the end. But actually, I am an optimist. I have young children. Two of them are teenagers. One of them is just about to become a teenager. They give me a huge amount of hope because they get it. I mean, they're not some sort of stuck in their ideas, sort of conspiracy theorists. And, you know, I think maybe that the sort of material opportunities for wealth and everything that my generation has, they just don't see that anymore. So I think they've just moved on philosophically.

KS: Alun, thank you for your time today.

AH: Not at all. [laughing] Sorry, I got a bit serious there. But, you know, I am hopeful we can get our act together and sort out this problem of our reliance on fossil fuels. I just think we can address this and sort it out, but we don't have much time. These changes have to be going on within the next decade or I think it will get a lot, lot worse. There we go! I've finished now. [laughing]

KS: Alun, thank you for your perspective. Have a great one, Alun.

AH: Okay. Thank you, Katie. Have a good one.

KS: Bye.

AH. Sorry for what you got there in the end.

KS: Nope. Bye.

SM: That was Alun Hubbard. He recently co-authored study on the melting of the Greenland ice cap, which was published in the scientific journal Nature Climate Change. We reached him in the Alps.

[calypso]

Alta Good Wheat Crop

SM: Last year wasn't easy for most farmers across the prairies. The summer was bone-dry when the crops needed rain. And in Alberta, when it finally did rain, it delayed the harvest of whatever crops had managed to grow. Cattle ranchers were forced to make tough decisions to cope with the threat of feed shortages over the winter. Now, things are looking up. Statistics Canada says its modelling shows that this year may actually bring Alberta's third-best wheat crop since 1908 -- with other crops such like barley and canola thriving as well. And after a year like last year, it's causing sighs of relief. David Bishop is on the board of directors for the Alberta Wheat Commission. He is also a farmer near Barons, Alberta. He spoke to the CBC morning show in Calgary.

[sc]

DAVID BISHOP: I wouldn't say it's a record. It's close to average, which is way better than it was from last year. It's probably at least twice as good a crop as last year overall. So… but as far as at an average, it's close. It's close to an average crop in our area.

ROB BROWN: Yeah, a bounce back is… is needed after last year. It was pretty much desert-like conditions last year, right?

DB: Oh, very much so. Yeah. It was not a very good year for harvest last year. The heat's more… it's been actually probably too hot for most of the crops. It brings them along faster. It brings our… our conditions for harvesting, they come across faster because of the heat. But heat is an enemy to most crops, too, unless you're growing corn. Corn and soybeans, they love the heat. But most of the cereals and oilseeds, they'd rather have a little bit cooler than it is now.

RB: Hmmm. What are you growing?

DB: We grow… of course, we grow wheat, barley, canola and peas, and we have a little bit of porridge.

RB: And Stats Canada is saying it's looking like it about 75 per cent of our province will be, quote, good or excellent. Does that check out with what you're seeing?

DB: Oh, yeah, I think that's pretty close. So, yeah, our little area down here is probably… and there's an area, I think closer to Saskatchewan, a little bit in central… not central Alberta, but in that area where it's probably not as good as it could be there also. But overall, in the province, yeah, it's been… it's pretty good-looking for crops. I'd say it's going to be a good average for the crop overall in the province to be really accurate.

[/sc]

SM: That was David Bishop, a farmer near Barons, Alberta, speaking with CBC's Rob Brown on the Calgary Eyeopener.

[folk]

The Cat Came Back

SM: Kayleigh Madden and her family were moving from Alaska to Utah recently. And they made a pit stop around Teslin Lake, in the Yukon. Her cat Binx was in the car, so she rolled down the window a bit -- thinking he wouldn't be able to escape through the gap. But never underestimate a cat. Binx did escape. And after an unsuccessful hours-long search, Ms. Madden took to Facebook for help from the community -- who seriously showed up. Here's Ms. Madden telling the CBC yesterday about what happened next.

[sc]

KAYLEIGH MADDEN: Eventually, it was the Teslin buy and sell page, I think, that really connected me with the amazing people of Teslin. That they did not give up on Binx. They did not give up on us. They kept searching and put out game cameras, and people stopped at the spot that we lost him at him and fed him! That's why I think he's still probably so chunky, because I think he was just tricking them. He was like, I'm just gonna wait it out, eat all this food and then come out when I'm ready.

SARAH PENTON: [laughing] They were putting out bowls of food for him?!

KM: Yes, people were putting out bowls. They were taking cat treats out there to shake around. Toys to crinkle. I mean, they… they did not give up looking for my cat. And I'm so, so grateful for them.

SP: So, how was he eventually recovered?

KM: So, he was found at the old Morley River Lodge. Some people were out there walking with their family. I'm not sure if they were specifically in search of him, but they had heard him meowing. So that's when the search moved from where we lost him to that specific place. They had set up a game camera, and they spotted him on the game camera, [SP chuckles] and put out a cage with food. And that's how he was eventually trapped, by food.

SP: They set out… they set out a camera just to look for your cat?

KM: They did! [SP laughs] I am amazed. at the lengths these amazing people went to to help me. It's incredible.

SP: Awee! So, what was going through your mind when you found out that he had been found? I mean, this is 50… like, 5-0. Like 49, 50 days he was gone.

KM: Yeah!

SP: What was it like to get that news that he was found?

KM: It was just… it was all the waves of emotion.

[/sc]

SM: That was Kayleigh Madden speaking with the CBC's Sarah Penton on Radio West in B.C.

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August 31, 2022 Episode Transcript

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